Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[Xeliou66]

I’m watching season 1 today, and I saw Jones, Talbot’s wife always pisses me off in this, she was remarkably blind and stupid not to see that her husband was a murderous slimebag piece of shit, she continued to help him even after she knew the detectives were searching for him. Fuck her, she should be charged for obstruction and accessory, I loved Goren’s angry interrogation of her, and his final interrogation of Talbot was classic Goren. Good episode with a fast paced plot. Carver only had a couple of lines of the dialogue in the episode, but there was a lot of Deakins. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, Alex did ask him how he could keep such a promise. And, to be fair, since this was the pilot episode for CI, I think they wanted to show that Goren was driven to speak for the victims or whatnot, and that was the shortcut du jour to show it.

8 hours ago, wknt3 said:

That's how I took it - it was a way of establishing Goren's personality. Not only is he driven to the point of obsession, but he doesn't always follow SOP and is brilliant enough to get away with it, most of the time. It also sets up Eames and the partnership nicely - she's the grounded one who challenges him and tries to keep him tethered to reality. It really is a good piece of writing in that it's a nice emotional dramatic moment that really shows us who those two characters are.

Oh, I realize that. But having just recently gone through watching the last 9 seasons of the Mothership, it just made me giggle when I saw Goren promise and Eames ask him about said promise. THIS is the Goren I LOVE. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m watching season 1 today, and I saw Jones, Talbot’s wife always pisses me off in this, she was remarkably blind and stupid not to see that her husband was a murderous slimebag piece of shit, she continued to help him even after she knew the detectives were searching for him. Fuck her, she should be charged for obstruction and accessory, I loved Goren’s angry interrogation of her, and his final interrogation of Talbot was classic Goren. Good episode with a fast paced plot. Carver only had a couple of lines of the dialogue in the episode, but there was a lot of Deakins. 

Yeah, and her arrogance when Goren was questioning her, a la "He did it for ME!" Oh, yeah. He killed a bunch of women, but it is All. ABOUT. YOU.

She really should have been charged for obstruction, at the very least.

[Sigmagirl]

Re “The Good Doctor”: They make a big deal out of Kelmer’s “Friends and family” list being in alphabetical order, and they use that to show what a control freak he was. At the time, if I had needed to provide such a list, I would simply have handed over my Christmas card list, and it would have been in alphabetical order. Big deal.

[Xeliou66]

30 minutes ago, Sigmagirl said:

Re “The Good Doctor”: They make a big deal out of Kelmer’s “Friends and family” list being in alphabetical order, and they use that to show what a control freak he was. At the time, if I had needed to provide such a list, I would simply have handed over my Christmas card list, and it would have been in alphabetical order. Big deal.

I don’t think most people have a Christmas card list in alphabetical order, I certainly don’t, I think that would be unusual. 

The Good Doctor is one of my favorite CI episodes, I love seeing them go into the courtroom and Kelmer was a memorable, smug villain. It was a great episode despite how straightforward it was.

[WendyCR72]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I don’t think most people have a Christmas card list in alphabetical order, I certainly don’t, I think that would be unusual. 

The Good Doctor is one of my favorite CI episodes, I love seeing them go into the courtroom and Kelmer was a memorable, smug villain. It was a great episode despite how straightforward it was.

Alex, I think, was right about one thing, though: Kelmer was convicted because he was a raging douche, not because of any real evidence. (Still love the blooper at the end of the trial/verdict dated as April 30th, yet Carver, Goren, and Eames exit the courthouse steps in winter coats and gloves. Valerie was killed in January, I think. If the show wanted the realistic time jump, just have the three talking in the empty courtroom afterwards!)

[Xeliou66]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:34 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Alex, I think, was right about one thing, though: Kelmer was convicted because he was a raging douche, not because of any real evidence. (Still love the blooper at the end of the trial/verdict dated as April 30th, yet Carver, Goren, and Eames exit the courthouse steps in winter coats and gloves. Valerie was killed in January, I think. If the show wanted the realistic time jump, just have the three talking in the empty courtroom afterwards!)

Juries frequently convict based on how much they like the defendant or not. And I thought the circumstantial evidence against Kelmer was very strong. I liked seeing Carver get him to explode on the stand, I wish CI had gone into the courtroom more often.

[Sigmagirl]

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Sigmagirl said:

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

I think Goren knew when to stop before getting held in contempt. And yeah if he had been I think Carver would’ve smoothed things over with the judge to get him out. I remember an SVU episode where Stabler was held in contempt and Novak I believe got him out.

[wknt3]

1 hour ago, Sigmagirl said:

Goren really was coming close to being held in contempt of court. I suppose they’d prearranged what would have happened, like in My Cousin Vinny? 😆 Does the police union provide lawyers to help with bail? Would Eames bail him out? Would Carver help? 

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think Goren knew when to stop before getting held in contempt. And yeah if he had been I think Carver would’ve smoothed things over with the judge to get him out. I remember an SVU episode where Stabler was held in contempt and Novak I believe got him out.

Carver would have helped. Eventually. After letting Goren cool his heels a bit...

[WendyCR72]

Since Goren's testimony was specifically to play to Kelmer's arrogance and get Kelmer on the stand, I'd think maybe Carver knew that Goren would skirt the line.

I think Goren's testimony as it was was completely on purpose...and it did its job in the end.

[catlover79]

My mom, ever since CI was originally on the air, has always called Goren the "in your face guy". She can never remember VDO's name or the name of his character (Goren), hence her own nickname. To this day, we always call him the "in your face guy"!!! 😂

[Xeliou66]

Faith was on today, and I have to say the killer in this episode was beyond gullible to the point of being delusional. I have no idea how she could still believe that Erica was real when there was overwhelming evidence she was a fraud and no proof she was real, yet Christine still believed the hoax all the way through and was willing to commit murder to help this fictional girl. I wish Skoda had appeared in this episode to give some insight into Christine’s mindset, because I wonder how mentally competent she was and it would’ve been nice to have had more insight into her mental state.

[Xeliou66]

19 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Since Goren's testimony was specifically to play to Kelmer's arrogance and get Kelmer on the stand, I'd think maybe Carver knew that Goren would skirt the line.

I think Goren's testimony as it was was completely on purpose...and it did its job in the end.

Oh yes I’m certain Carver knew beforehand what Goren was going to say, I think they had prepared it and rehearsed it before the trial, Carver didn’t look at all surprised and I’m certain Carver was in on Goren’s plan to bait Kelmer into testifying and it was definitely intentional. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Kind of seguing away from what's airing right now, but for all the...disagreements that Goren and Carver had, I really loved and giggled at their mutual love and childish glee at those toy model cars, and Eames metaphorically rolling her eyes and something about "men being boys when it came to toys"? or something like that. I'm blanking on the episode name.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Kind of seguing away from what's airing right now, but for all the...disagreements that Goren and Carver had, I really loved and giggled at their mutual love and childish glee at those toy model cars, and Eames metaphorically rolling her eyes and something about "men being boys when it came to toys"? or something like that. I'm blanking on the episode name.

It was "Cherry Red" in S2, and Eames asked them if they were having a playdate when she caught them playing with the toy cars.  🙂

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Faith was on today, and I have to say the killer in this episode was beyond gullible to the point of being delusional. I have no idea how she could still believe that Erica was real when there was overwhelming evidence she was a fraud and no proof she was real, yet Christine still believed the hoax all the way through and was willing to commit murder to help this fictional girl. I wish Skoda had appeared in this episode to give some insight into Christine’s mindset, because I wonder how mentally competent she was and it would’ve been nice to have had more insight into her mental state.

Even sadder when you know this was based on a real case. I guess there are many gullible people in the world.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Kind of seguing away from what's airing right now, but for all the...disagreements that Goren and Carver had, I really loved and giggled at their mutual love and childish glee at those toy model cars, and Eames metaphorically rolling her eyes and something about "men being boys when it came to toys"? or something like that. I'm blanking on the episode name.

I love that scene as well, very funny and one of the only times we saw the usually very serious and reserved Carver act more laid back. That was a great scene. 

[catlover79]

On 6/11/2019 at 8:22 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I love that scene as well, very funny and one of the only times we saw the usually very serious and reserved Carver act more laid back. That was a great scene. 

"I wish I could tell you how this feels. Well actually, I could - but not in mixed company." HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Gramto6]

I think she said something like "you boys having a play date?" Lol it was so under key and in character that it was really funny!

[catlover79]

NO ONE could dish up the sarcasm like Kathryn Erbe as Eames. 

[WendyCR72]

4 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

NO ONE could dish up the sarcasm like Kathryn Erbe as Eames. 

Yeah, I loved Alex's snark. It was muted from S6 through S8, but it seemed to reemerge in S10.  🙂 Lennie Briscoe on the Mothership was the Sarcasm King to Alex Eames' Queen, IMO!

10 minutes ago, Gramto6 said:

I think she said something like "you boys having a play date?" Lol it was so under key and in character that it was really funny!

It was refreshing to see Carver loosen up! The whole scene was amusing.

[catlover79]

Goren/Eames was easily the best male/female team in the franchise (and I'm talking both cops and ADAs). There was nothing romantic going on, and their relationship was more like brother/sister. We didn't see the melodrama between them that we were "treated" to with Stabler/Benson (and then just Benson) over at SVU.

[WendyCR72]

13 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

Goren/Eames was easily the best male/female team in the franchise (and I'm talking both cops and ADAs). There was nothing romantic going on, and their relationship was more like brother/sister. We didn't see the melodrama between them that we were "treated" to with Stabler/Benson (and then just Benson) over at SVU.

I don't know, S10 was filled with...not innuendo, exactly, but references to love, relationships, and that S10 ending was...ambiguous. To please both sides of the aisle, I guess! I'm not a rabid shipper, but I'm not sure "brother/sister" describes them. But those themes were - to me - a wink from TPTB that knew both sides were out there, and balancing everything. But different strokes and all.  🙂 The debate rages on forever.

But the melodrama? Well, S6 and S7 seemed to have a lot of misery: Eames' kidnapping (but again, glad she saved herself!), Bobby devastated at the end of "Siren Call" when Ray Wasneski offed himself (airing in the middle of the night tonight, actually!), his mom's cancer/death, and Frank...

And then Eames had the whole revisit of her husband's killer in S7.

S10, they seemed to finally remember how to be happy, again!

The only S10 misstep, to me, was perhaps hiring Jay O. Sanders as Captain Hannah. Not because he isn't a good actor, but his S2 appearance as Harry Rowan was just so memorable, it was odd to see him as another character.

[catlover79]

Well, I was referring mainly to S1-5. I liked the first couple of years with Logan, too. Then they started switching the cast so much, the constant turnover gave me a headache. (I still refuse to watch any of the Jeff Goldblum episodes.) Really - the best cast by far was D'Onofrio/Erbe/Sheridan/Vance.

Edited June 14, 2019 by catlover79

[WendyCR72]

But I will agree about one thing you cite, @catlover79: Goren and Eames were positively well adjusted next to the mess that Benson and Stabler eventually became.

Thank God.

1 minute ago, catlover79 said:

Well, I was referring mainly to S1-5. I liked the first couple of years with Logan, too. Then they started switching the cast so much, the constant turnover gave me a headache. (I still refuse to watch any of the Jeff Goldblum episodes.) Really - the best cast by far was D'Onofrio/Erbe/Sheridan/Vance.

Oh, many agree with you.  🙂

But if you have not seen it? S10 is a worthwhile look. Just Goren/Eames again. And only eight episodes.  🙂

[WendyCR72]

And you didn't like Zack Nichols/JG? Sit at my table. LOL! My God, what a slow season S9 was.

[WendyCR72]

Oh, just another reminder as I now see their channel icon in my listings, but for anyone that may not get the WE and/or Oxygen Networks or whatever, the show returns to ION on Monday, June 24th at 7:00 a.m. 'til 11:00 a.m. ET. Also on Tuesdays, same time, so twice a week.

[catlover79]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

But if you have not seen it? S10 is a worthwhile look. Just Goren/Eames again. And only eight episodes.  🙂

I have seen it - and referred to it as a return to normalcy (or, as close to normal as Goren gets!). Jay O. Sanders was also good as their new supervisor.

[kathyk2]

I thought Goren's counseling sessions in Season 10 were over the top. My favorite episode was on last night The Good. Logan interrogating Marcus was brilliant. The worst episode was Inert Dwarf. I hated that the villain was based on Steven Hawking.

[WendyCR72]

14 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I thought Goren's counseling sessions in Season 10 were over the top. My favorite episode was on last night The Good. Logan interrogating Marcus was brilliant. The worst episode was Inert Dwarf. I hated that the villain was based on Steven Hawking.

I don't think "over the top" as much as redundant. We really learned nothing new.

[Xeliou66]

I felt like Goren’s shrink sessions in season 10 were an attempt to give the character some closure from all of the crap he had been through since season 6, I didn’t mind them but they didn’t add anything to the show. I liked season 10, it felt like golden era CI and the show seemed very fresh again.

[catlover79]

My choice for funniest CI scene (and they did humor much, much better than either SVU or the Mothership) is a tie between Goren, Griffin Dunne and the shoe, and when Goren and Eames go to a fancy restaurant to arrest a suspect. Goren just sits down next to him at the table and starts eating the guy's steak. Hilarious!!! 😂

[Xeliou66]

49 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

My choice for funniest CI scene (and they did humor much, much better than either SVU or the Mothership) is a tie between Goren, Griffin Dunne and the shoe, and when Goren and Eames go to a fancy restaurant to arrest a suspect. Goren just sits down next to him at the table and starts eating the guy's steak. Hilarious!!! 😂

Goren eating the steak is from D.A.W, and yes that was a hilarious scene, one of the funniest in CI history.

[WendyCR72]

There's also the scene in "Baggage" (which aired last night!) from S2, where Alex introduces Bobby to the woman the perp was trying to pick up as "Bob, the shipping magnate" as he tells the woman Alex is the "Queen of Sheba", both clearly poking holes in ol' Keith's claim that he was VP of the airline he worked at.

Also liked the scene from "Cherry Red" (on today) - the same episode as Carver and Bobby's play date - when Bobby hopped into the vintage car the perp had bought with the stolen money from those wills the perp destroyed and was having a ball with the engine, and Alex telling Bobby, after the perp was arrested, that he had to come out of the car.  🙂

One last scene was from Nicole Wallace's first episode, "Anti Thesis", when Alex and Bobby were trying to track down "Prof. Elizabeth Hitchens" whom had latched on to that guy at the college, by going into the show store where Nicole had bought the guy a pair of shoes and pretended to be a yuppie couple looking for the brand of shoe "Alex's cousin" had bought. The ankle boot scene was good for a laugh.

[catlover79]

Olivia d'Abo did incredible work, but they definitely went to the Nicole Wallace well a few too many times. YMMV, of course.

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, catlover79 said:

Olivia d'Abo did incredible work, but they definitely went to the Nicole Wallace well a few too many times. YMMV, of course.

She should have died after "Great Barrier" in S4 (the one where Nicole took that Chinese (? - apologies if that is not her nationality!) woman under her wing. As a matter of fact, Nicole almost did die then. It was filmed as an ending.

But NBC, at the time, had viewers vote on whether it was Nicole or the other woman that died. And viewers voted for Nicole to live.

That unused ending is on the DVD set for S4 as an extra/alternate scene.

[Xeliou66]

Yes I’ve made my dislike of the Nicole Wallace storyline well known, it was over the top and ridiculous how Nicole kept on escaping justice, and yes the storyline should’ve ended with Great Barrier, the alternate ending to the episode was far superior to the canon ending of Nicole escaping yet again. I usually skip the Nicole episodes when they are on on reruns, I never found the character all that compelling and the storyline went on for way too long.

[WendyCR72]

I will say "Slither" in S5 was pretty clever in using Nicole without Olivia D'Abo physically being there, though.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I will say "Slither" in S5 was pretty clever in using Nicole without Olivia D'Abo physically being there, though.

It really disappointed me that Slither wound up involving Nicole because the opening showed so much potential and had a very chilling feel, it disappointed me that it became part of the Nicole fiasco, and it was bizarre at the end how after the perp was killed in the staircase no one took off looking for Nicole, they all just stood over his body, very bizarre.

[WendyCR72]

24 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

It really disappointed me that Slither wound up involving Nicole because the opening showed so much potential and had a very chilling feel, it disappointed me that it became part of the Nicole fiasco, and it was bizarre at the end how after the perp was killed in the staircase no one took off looking for Nicole, they all just stood over his body, very bizarre.

Well, like I once posted, the time line given for Nicole in this episode drove me batty, but I guess we shouldn't think about the inconsistencies too much!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

It really disappointed me that Slither wound up involving Nicole because the opening showed so much potential and had a very chilling feel, it disappointed me that it became part of the Nicole fiasco, and it was bizarre at the end how after the perp was killed in the staircase no one took off looking for Nicole, they all just stood over his body, very bizarre.

Bizarre ending for a bizarre episode.

[catlover79]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Goren eating the steak is from D.A.W, and yes that was a hilarious scene, one of the funniest in CI history.

"D.A.W." will be on WE on Friday, 6/21 @ 11 AM EST. The suspect, a doctor, was played by Kevin Tighe of Emergency! fame.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, catlover79 said:

"D.A.W." will be on WE on Friday, 6/21 @ 11 AM EST. The suspect, a doctor, was played by Kevin Tighe of Emergency! fame.

Yeah, there was a short discussion at one point in the old forum that is now vaulted.  🙂 For playing a good guy (or so I have read) on Emergency!, Tighe seemed to have a hell of a good time playing the bad guy here.

[catlover79]

On 6/14/2019 at 1:27 AM, WendyCR72 said:

And you didn't like Zack Nichols/JG? Sit at my table. LOL! 

Plus, I always skip over the episodes from the earlier years when Kathryn Erbe (and Eames!) was on maternity leave. I just couldn't handle her fill-in, Detective G. Something Bishop.

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, catlover79 said:

Plus, I always skip over the episodes from the earlier years when Kathryn Erbe (and Eames!) was on maternity leave. I just couldn't handle her fill-in, Detective G. Something Bishop.

That's G. (No idea what that ever stood for!) Lynn Bishop, and ironically, WE is running those episodes this week. Bishop annoyed me [and no, not because she wasn't Eames but because she had a youngish vibe that seemed to irk], but I thought the cases/episodes were still watchable, for the most part. I did like the disparity of Bishop/Eames in "Pravda", when Goren made a scene at a restaurant where Judd Hirsch's newspaper editor was eating.

As Goren/Bishop were leaving, she says, "Just so you know, I didn't enjoy that!" to which Goren responds, "Really? Eames would've." And the thing is, Goren was probably right, as Eames' S1 rigidity seemed to be much softened by S2 and onward.

[catlover79]

I actually turned WE on this morning, saw Bishop and turned it right back off. (No offense to the actress, though.)

[WendyCR72]

39 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

I actually turned WE on this morning, saw Bishop and turned it right back off. (No offense to the actress, though.)

Since WE shows the seasons at a fast clip, Eames is back in the noon S3 episode, "Unrequited", the episode with the late Charles Rocket as the guy dying of prostate cancer with insipid Margie, the dumbest chemistry teacher on earth.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I can’t believe I didn’t catch this the first, second, or even the third time I watched “Healer“. That when Logan and Barrett went to see the voodoo charlatan’s ex, that the tag stated “State University of Maryland” NOOO! That’s my alma mater and it is The University of Maryland, All the logos for it are UMD, NOT SUM. It’s never referred to as SUM, but UMD in abbreviated speak, or as The University of Maryland. So fucking LAZY. NO EXCUSE for this fuck up,😒😒😒🤬🤬🤬🤬

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Since WE shows the seasons at a fast clip, Eames is back in the noon S3 episode, "Unrequited", the episode with the late Charles Rocket as the guy dying of prostate cancer with insipid Margie, the dumbest chemistry teacher on earth.

Oops, got my episodes mixed up! "Unrequited" was the return episode, but that was the one with Marion Whitney, the wannabe theater star after offing the hubby. My bad. "Pas De Deux" was the insipid Margie episode, right after. Hence why, if one is up for whatever reason at 4:00 a.m., one should always review what they type. 🙂

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I can’t believe I didn’t catch this the first, second, or even the third time I watched “Healer“. That when Logan and Barrett went to see the voodoo charlatan’s ex, that the tag stated “State University of Maryland” NOOO! That’s my alma mater and it is The University of Maryland, All the logos for it are UMD, NOT SUM. It’s never referred to as SUM, but UMD in abbreviated speak, or as The University of Maryland. So fucking LAZY. NO EXCUSE for this fuck up,😒😒😒🤬🤬🤬🤬

Maybe there were legal issues in using the name, so the show tweaked? Wouldn't surprise me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Oops, got my episodes mixed up! "Unrequited" was the return episode, but that was the one with Marion Whitney, the wannabe theater star after offing the hubby. My bad. "Pas De Deux" was the insipid Margie episode, right after. Hence why, if one is up for whatever reason at 4:00 a.m., one should always review what they type. 🙂

Maybe there were legal issues in using the name, so the show tweaked? Wouldn't surprise me.

When they were able to say “The University of Maryland” in the dialogue?😒