Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[statsgirl]

It's not on Felicity to change anything. It's also not on Felicity to be providing favors for people who aren't her friends.

 

I'm pretty sure if Diggle told her that she could either do it their way or not at all that Laurel would've relented. Laurel might be crazy, but she isn't suicidal.

But it is in Felicity's nature to provide favors for people who are friends of her friends, and even more in this case, the grieving sister of her friend who had just died.

 

At the end of Left Behind, Laurel went out alone as the Black Canary and attacked two bad guys. 

 

 

If you want to change a character's flaws, you use the reactions to them from other characters when they act according to said flaws.

That's the real question about how the show writes Laurel.  It's like they don't want to change her flaws, that giving her a mask and black leather is enough to make her into a superhero.

 

 

I would really have to go back and watch some episodes to nail down my impression, but my initial thought of Dinah and Quentin was that Sara's death was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I mean yes Quentin is still very much in love with her even when we meet him five years later, but my impression of Dinah is that she wasn't nostalgic about hers and Quentin's past at all. 

I got the feeling that while Dinah still cared a lot for Quentin, she had moved on and found someone else.  It was  Quentin to left her (by burying himself in his work when Sara died) and Dinah who felt abandoned so she picked up her things and moved to Central City.  It kind of fits that on this show, often the female characters are emotionally healthier than the male ones.   Quentin was the one who got stuck in the past, and when he emerged after Sara's return, he wanted the past back. Dinah had moved on.

 

Alcoholism can come on later; "late onset alcoholism" is defined by addiction at age 60 or later.  Does that also apply to people who have the gene in their family?  I couldn't find the answer to that.  However, I did find studies talking about alcoholism genes being turned on (epigenetics) due to severe stress so it's possible that Quentin drank socially most of his life but after Sara's death and the other traumas, it switched the genetic factor on. But that's really speculating.

 

 

2) Laurel tolerates Oliver's cheating while pretending that there is real love between them.  She is so sold on this illusion that when he comes back, she falls for it again.  By that point in her life, she had earned a good life for herself and was watching Tommy do the same.  She and Tommy could have had a great life together - I can't see her giving that up for "gold digging" reasons even if he had been cut off by his dad.  It seems to me Laurel's interactions with Oliver and her tolerance of his mistreatment of her is about more than "wanting the good life."

Yeah, it doesn't make sense that she turned down Tommy for two years if all she wanted was a billionaire in her pocket.  But on the other hand, she didn't enable Tommy when she was with him.  She was sympathetic but she made him go and ask Oliver for a job.

 

She's a really hard character to write a consistent personality analysis for.  Why did she turn down Tommy, who treated her well and genuinely loved her unlike Oliver, and held on to the Oliver torch?  Did she not recognize what real love was?  (Unlikely since I see Dinah and Quentin as having real love.)  Or was so so attracted to alpha males that that's all she held out for?

Edited April 11, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Now that it seems that LL will not be the main LI; SL will be out doing whatever the Spin-Off is writing for her and most importantly LL has officially become the BC - I think the writers need to regroup over the summer and figure out what that want to do with LL/BC. They have figure out what they (& hopefully fans/reviewers) like & dislike most about her character, personality, story arc. They then have to determine which of those are vital to keep moving forward and which could be expunged over the summer. Basically they need to have a Pow Wow/ brain storming session and figure out what to do with her. This summer preparation & s4 story arcing for her character is probably the most pivotal of any of the other seasons. If they continue to write her the way they are, I can't imagine her gaining more fans, only losing or irritating more fans. If they find a way to tap into the parts that people like (she does have some good qualities) about her and magnify those, I think it will be better for her & the show. They have a golden opportunity here to correct some of their mistakes and I hope they don't squander it.

Edited April 11, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

They also need to focus on who Laurel really shines with and develop natural interactions between her and those characters.  I like Laurel and Roy together and Laurel and Thea should have an interesting history.  I think they need to do whatever they can to get Wildcat back as well because Laurel worked well with him in my opinion.  I also think Laurel could do with a good love story with someone other than Oliver to lighten her up a bit - I'd like it to be Wildcat personally, but I'd settle for them setting up a dynamic with a cop who she interacts with both as BC and ADA.  I know this show is Arrow - not Black Canary - but to me, they need to develop Laurel separate from Oliver.  I think if they gave her the B-plot a lot of time with her crossing with Felicity, Thea, Roy, and Nyssa, the audience would have a chance to get to enjoy her positives more.

[ostentatious]

She desperately needs a love interest.

One designed for her and one with whom they carefully chemistry read her.

And one with a nice body, this is Arrow ffs.

[dtissagirl]

We spent a good part of the Summer hiatus speculating on a Taming of the Shrew type of relationship for Laurel and Ted Grant, before they lost the actor. I still think that could work for Laurel.

[Genki]

I didn't really feel Laurel and Ted Grant, maybe because I wasn't interested and was too cynical about the plot related shenanigans by that point. However I think Laurel's character "flaws" need to to be owned, (acknowledged in text that she is entitled, and bitchy and doesn't think things through rather than show the audience actions that can be interpreted that way, then tell them something completely different about her), I love difficult/complicated women characters, and will always root for them, if there is substance and self awareness given to them. Unfortunately for Arrow, and me, LL is not written/perceived in that way to a good chunk of the audience.

 

The Laurel/Ray 3.17 scene worked well IMO, because it played to KC acting strengths and rang true as a character for Laurel. She was superior, slightly manipulative and had a great position of power in that scene (helping the Hero of the show and using her character's actual value for the Team, i.e. Law Degree), then Ray tried to take it away from her, by saying things like her feelings were making her compromised, and she shut him down. That is a Laurel I could root for. 

 

In Season 1 I didn't appreciate Laurel/Tommy because I was shipping Tommy/Thea but their flashback scenes  (and sibling hindsight) from 3.15 with Tommy showed she works better with a love interest who a different personality/goals that she is reluctantly charmed by and lets in. Definitely with a lighter personality type than her own.

 

Since I don't think Laurel is going anywhere, I would appreciate seeing her flustered (in a Blair Worldorf - things & feelings aren't going to my plan way) than with a stubborn personality which she butts heads with constantly. For me both Oliver and Ted fall into this butts - heads category. 

 

In a purely platonic sense, Nyssa works with Laurel in a way that Felicity doesn't, maybe because Nyssa's own, justified IMO, sense of entitlement and ego make Laurel more honest about herself, but if they ever wanted to to do a Bird's of Prey type thing I think the best way to go about it is have it play out in the 3.5 comics. With Helena in jail Nyssa can take up the Huntress mantle, and Felicity can even be the Oracle, so they can move them into a more believable relationship (note not sure if I can get behind a full Flelicity/Laurel friendship, a relationship of mutual trust and respect is OK), as opposed to the unearned one I've seen on screen. Also I like Felicity Nyssa, and regret that they didn't interact because if Palmer Island and other reasons. 

In this scenario, there has to be a reasons that the guys aren't in Starling, Oliver maybe for LOA type activity, Diggle tied with Lyla and Baby Sara or as the floater, Roy is in prison or dead. With or without Sara too alternatively she could play the Oracle role or it could be about them finding out she is alive.

Also full disclaimer, this will play into my ideal scenario of keeping Oliver/Felicity separated during hiatus so on screen Olicity development can happen in S4.

 

Edited because Spoiler tags was acting screwy, apologies if something was accidentally spoiled.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Genki

[statsgirl]

I know this show is Arrow - not Black Canary - but to me, they need to develop Laurel separate from Oliver.  I think if they gave her the B-plot a lot of time with her crossing with Felicity, Thea, Roy, and Nyssa, the audience would have a chance to get to enjoy her positives more.

I think she works best on the show when she's being a good lawyer, or when she's in the B-plot (with Nyssa would be good).  I like her the least when she's being the Black Canary in the Arrow cave.

 

Maybe they could bring back Ted Grant for a few episodes once J R Ramirez has finished shooting this season of Power.  I want Laurel to be in a relationship with someone but I don't need the show to spend time on it on screen once it's set up.  In order of how much I care about a relationship, it goes Oliver/Felicity, Diggle/Lyla, Roy/Thea, Quentin/Donna and Laurel/?.   I put Quentin/Donna ahead of Laurel/someone because even though Q/D doesn't exist at this time, you know it would be fun if it ever did.

[catrox14]

Re the discussion of actors who can do their own stunts and stunt fighting.  It's a tremendous advantage that adds believability to a fight scene.

 

I refer to Supernatural often because Jensen(primarily) and Jared (like Stephen) both do a good deal of their own stunt work that is within safety and for my money it makes a world of difference in selling a scene.  The editing is less severe. The actors faces can be shown, even a masked actor.  They can emote whilst fighting, exchange dialogue even. IMO it just makes it so much more enjoyable as a viewer.  If there is too much jump cutting to sell a fight then I always think...oh it's the stunt double, which is not a problem but it's less entertaining. There is also a skill to stunt fighting. It's not the same as actual fighting of course. So for me an actor that can move well enough to sell a skill, is preferred over switching to a stunt double.  That's just my mileage :)

 

ETA: If nothing else, I hope KC can learn to stage fight better than she did on SPN :).

Edited April 11, 2015 by catrox14

[ostentatious]

We spent a good part of the Summer hiatus speculating on a Taming of the Shrew type of relationship for Laurel and Ted Grant, before they lost the actor. I still think that could work for Laurel.

Wonder how she feels about Dawgs.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Now that it seems that LL will not be the main LI; SL will be out doing whatever the Spin-Off is writing for her and most importantly LL has officially become the BC - I think the writers need to regroup over the summer and figure out what that want to do with LL/BC. They have figure out what they (& hopefully fans/reviewers) like & dislike most about her character, personality, story arc. They then have to determine which of those are vital to keep moving forward and which could be expunged over the summer. Basically they need to have a Pow Wow/ brain storming session and figure out what to do with her.

 

Or they could just cut their losses and ship the character off to another city. I know it's never going to happen, but the writers have had 3 whole years with Laurel and up to now they can't seem to find a good role for her. Even her emergence as BC doesn't seem to have improved the audience's opinion of her. In my case, apathy is quickly turning to resentment because I feel too much time was spent on her "hero journey" when the one I want to see is Oliver's (I feel the same way about Ray's journey, but in his case I know there's an expiration date). Arrow doesn't need BC. It already has a hero. Let her go.

[catrox14]

Wait, did they really envision a Taming of the Shrew? BECAUSE oh hell no.  I don't like Laurel but geez that is just wrong on every level.

[statsgirl]

Katie Cassidy interview

 

1. From Oliver cheating on Laurel with her sister, to joining him in Team Arrow, the two of them have gone through a lot. How would you describe their current relationship? Is there a chance they can rekindle their past romance?

Their current relationship is interesting. Oliver sees Laurel in an entirely different light. He sees that she has what it takes to be a "fighter" or "hero," but she hasn't been properly trained.  Laurel is also not afraid to stand up to Oliver and stand up for what she believes in. I don't think that Laurels current mental state is anywhere near a place of romance. That's the last thing on her mind.

I agree that Laurel is not afraid to stand up to Oliver (was she ever?) but the sense I get from Oliver is more along the lines of "since I can't do anything to stop her, I'll just accept her in the clothes and keep telling her to get more training."

[catrox14]

Katie Cassidy interview

I agree that Laurel is not afraid to stand up to Oliver (was she ever?) but the sense I get from Oliver is more along the lines of "since I can't do anything to stop her, I'll just accept her in the clothes and keep telling her to get more training."

 

Exactly. I don't think there was any sense that Oliver respects her decision but has just had to accept the nonsense. 

[Starfish35]

My fondest wish for Laurel (that I'm not going to get) is that she's not on the show at all next season, except for (very) occasional guest appearances.

My worst fear, with current spoilers,

Roy possibly dying, Oliver and Diggle's relationship being damaged[/spoiler] is that next season will end up as a GA/BC team up, with Felicity running comms.

As far as a love interest, if I had to create a love interest for Laurel, it wouldn't be Ted Grant. I personally didn't really care for him all that much. It would be someone more like Tommy. Someone kind of goofy and fun and easy going, but that could be serious and badass if he needed to be. I don't know if there's anyone in the DC superheroes catalog that fits that description, but that's the direction I'd go personally. Laurel is so very very Type A. She needs someone to balance her out and lighten her up.

[catrox14]

That's why I think Ray would actually work with Laurel. He's awkward.

[Starfish35]

Weellllllll, awkward isn't the same as goofy, or at least that's not how I was meaning it. I was meaning more in a joking around cutting up type way, not in an awkward bad jokes type of way.

ETA: I mean, yeah, there was a moment I was intrigued by the idea of Ray and Laurel (#AtomicCanary), but....right at this moment, I can't really see it.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I found it funny that KC found Laurel to be whiny... It's obvious she hated her character arc in season 1 and 2 and part of season 3 :p

[catrox14]

I think Ray has moments of being goofy. But I can't see Laurel with someone goofy TBH. She's too serious and IMO doesn't have a sense of humor...so Ray is goofy but also serious.  Tommy wasn't goofy at all IMO but he was light hearted for a little while.  I think Ray fits.

[kismet]

As long as they chemistry test her with the guy and they've got the chemistry, I don't really care what he is like. Honestly, at this moment its hard to imagine what type of guy would be perfect for LL/BC. I could see passion from two type As butting heads, but I also could see good things from someone more laid back that balances her out.

[pootlus]

Preferably someone who makes her smile. Katie is a lovely young woman with a really nice smile, if they have to keep Laurel around at least make her happier rather than trying to turn her into a brooding, damaged 'hero'.

[nksarmi]

As long as they chemistry test her with the guy and they've got the chemistry, I don't really care what he is like. Honestly, at this moment its hard to imagine what type of guy would be perfect for LL/BC. I could see passion from two type As butting heads, but I also could see good things from someone more laid back that balances her out.

Oddly enough - what would probably be good for her is the kind of guy Green Arrow is supposed to be.  I mean, in the comics isn't he a wisecracking smartass instead of this broody, self-loathing guy we get on Arrow?  Don't get me wrong - I love Stephen's Oliver - but I'd really like to see a bit more of the Green Arrow I saw in the Justice League cartoons my kids watch.

 

As much I think I would like the Wildcat pairing - he probably is too serious for her.  I think she needs someone strong, smart, and her equal in every way.  Someone who is funny and doesn't take himself too seriously and won't let her either.  And someone who calls her on her bullshit and who she knows will be loyal to her.  Since I doubt that fans want to see another comic book character introduced and since she is in full on BC/ADA mode now - I think the best fit for her would be a cop who flirted and joked with her as the ADA and then who went toe to toe with her as BC - one who she protected and then when he has the chance to turn her in, he doesn't.  One who gradually figures out who she is just by putting pieces together all on his own.

[statsgirl]

I like the cop idea.  But he would have to be a detective because she likes alpha males.

 

She needs someone who can lighter her up like Tommy did, but also someone who she can "fix" because she is a fixer.  That was the problem with Oliver, he didn't think he needed to be fixed.

 

I don't see Laurel as someone with a great sense of humor so someone who can make jokes but not too esoteric ones.

[Starfish35]

Oddly enough - what would probably be good for her is the kind of guy Green Arrow is supposed to be. I mean, in the comics isn't he a wisecracking smartass instead of this broody, self-loathing guy we get on Arrow?

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's more what I'd like to see her with. Oliver on this show is never going to be that. But someone who didn't take life quite so seriously, who could get her to not take herself quite so seriously? That would be good.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

My only issue with a cop/detective would be that he would be too connected to her father. Also it might be too close to the Iris/Eddie/Joe situation on the Flash. I liked her chemistry with Dylan Bruce (the DA w/ vertigo), although I just love Dylan Bruce so I might be partial. He also did use her, but perhaps we can look beyond that. I mean nobody's perfect. But I could see her with another attorney, maybe a doctor/surgeon because that would be an asset to the team without feeling compelled to arrest or prosecute her. Also doctors/surgeon tend to be busy, so they might not notice her gone as much, esp if they work night shifts. She needs someone who is not going to be concerned that she is sneaking away at night. Tommy's position at the club would have been the perfect job in retrospect, because she could be home by the time he probably gets home. But I feel like Verdant is probably the only club that has honest good guys running them. I did like her with Roy, for the hot sec they shared moments, but feel he is better matched with Thea. Ray & her had chemistry, but I don't want him spending any more time on Arrow as a love interest.

[Starfish35]

Well, that's why I said another superhero. I mean, I know after Ray everyone's leery of another superhero, but I find the attorney thing soooooo tedious, and anyone else you'd have all the repetitive "I have to lie to them about my secret" thing.

And honestly, I know they've been very attached to the Laurel as lawyer thing, but I'll still be surprised if she gets out of this season with her career intact.

[kismet]

Honestly, I would love to see her start up a relationship with someone who we think is a good guy and actually turns out to be bad. I always find those story lines kinda fun. Especially when the hero begins to realize that they might be being fooled and then begins to turn the tables on the bad guy. It also could run the whole season, where maybe we don't find out until the mid-season cliffhanger. Then its just the audience knowing something the characters don't for a few episodes, and then the LL could find out. She sorta did that with Blood, except we knew he was bad, but I did enjoy it. I think it would work for KC/LL because it would also help to then have an organic way to lose the relationship without needing another death or tragic injury like McKenna. It wouldn't provide long-term happiness, but it might make for a more dramatic show/character arc. It also is a way to keep her in the main plot, without isolating on her own plotline.

[ostentatious]

Oddly enough - what would probably be good for her is the kind of guy Green Arrow is supposed to be.  I mean, in the comics isn't he a wisecracking smartass instead of this broody, self-loathing guy we get on Arrow?  Don't get me wrong - I love Stephen's Oliver - but I'd really like to see a bit more of the Green Arrow I saw in the Justice League cartoons my kids watch.

This is why Tommy worked with Laurel. Tommy was much closer to that Green Arrow than Oliver was or ever will be.

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I would love to see her start up a relationship with someone who we think is a good guy and actually turns out to be bad. I always find those story lines kinda fun.

Hmm, well I guess this is a different strokes for different folks thing. I don't enjoy those types of storylines at all. Well, unless I hate the character in question. But I don't like having characters I like turn out bad, or seeing other characters (even Laurel) get taken in by them. *shrug* It's a personal preference.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

Hmm, well I guess this is a different strokes for different folks thing. I don't enjoy those types of storylines at all. Well, unless I hate the character in question. But I don't like having characters I like turn out bad, or seeing other characters (even Laurel) get taken in by them. *shrug* It's a personal preference.

It really has to well written. But it is personal preference. And I have seen it ruined on shows quite easily. So I can understand people not liking it. A show like Arrow could handle it, if only because so many people have secret IDs & agendas, that it would not be too far of a stretch - even if the guy turned out to be only marginally bad or indirectly working against TA. It did work on one of my fave shows of all time

Alias

and as an audience member it made me feel a little more invested because I (& my friends) knew something was up with the girl, so when it was revealed it was only a matter of time. So you wanted to see when others were gonna figure it out. It did make the guy look bad for a little bit, but the woman was very convincing. But in the end, it also made him look better and helped him take down the bad guys, so that worked out.

[Oscirus]

From the flashbacks, I always got that Laurel was the favorite and sara was the screw-up. It's especially there in 2x13 when Quentin and Dinah are talking about Laurel going to law school and Sara drops in unexpectedly and the other three assume she's there because she got kicked out of school.  But it's also there in the way Laurel acts with other people, like she's special and they should adapt to her.  That's an attitude that comes with being the favored child, not the one who constantly feels she needs to prove herself as Sara did.

 

I could probably counter that with the fact that when Dinah saw Sara going on the ship with Oliver, she kept that shit to herself.  If Laurel was the favorite, there is no way in hell that Dinah would've let Sara go so easily.

 

At the end of Left Behind, Laurel went out alone as the Black Canary and attacked two bad guys.

 

I think we can both agree that there's a huge difference between going after henchmen and singlehandedly trying to attack an organization.

 

Laurel tolerates Oliver's cheating while pretending that there is real love between them.  She is so sold on this illusion that when he comes back, she falls for it again.  By that point in her life, she had earned a good life for herself and was watching Tommy do the same.  She and Tommy could have had a great life together - I can't see her giving that up for "gold digging" reasons even if he had been cut off by his dad.  It seems to me Laurel's interactions with Oliver and her tolerance of his mistreatment of her is about more than "wanting the good life."

 

 

Does she really tolerate it or is she just stupidly blinded by love?

 

I think the fact that he treated her in such a callous way  really affected her  in ways she didn't consider. In season one, thoughts of "why couldn't I make Oliver happy ," were probably seeping into her psyche. Couple that with her seeing a new Oliver returning from the Island and she probably started to wonder if she could make it work the second time around.

 

And yea, if she was chasing money then she wouldn't have been a defense attorney.

 

The problem with her relationship with Tommy was that the show always presented it as a charity type situation. She didn't really love him yet she didn't want to hurt him and when he tried hard enough, she'd reward him.

 

Only thing I need from Laurel in the future is for her characterization to be consistent from season three to four.  Just pick an arc for her and stick with it. 

 

As for romances, what about Cisco? He could build her all kinds of gadgets and tell her how hot she is and she can um... um... model her Canary outfit for him?

[tv echo]

Another KC interview (nothing spoilery)...

 

Katie Cassidy Exclusive: 'Arrow' Star Talks Acting Roots, Laurel's Strong Will, 'Wonderful' Costar Relationships
Apr. 9, 2015
http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/56132/20150409/katie-cassidy-exclusive-arrow-star-talks-acting-roots-laurels-strong-will-wonderful-costar-relationships.htm

[ostentatious]

Yeah, the public interest lawyer of season one who they tried to tell us was a radiant generous angel and the Laurel of the flashback with Sara on the sofa are not the same character. The latter seemed VERY Moira, who I always thought probably tolerated Robert's infidelities before marriage for similar reasons (though I don't think it has ever been established if Robert built or inherited the company, and Moira has a Comes from Money feel to her but then again Laurel does somewhat herself and we know she doesn't).

Since the Laurel who tolerated the cheating because she was determined to have the life she envisioned for herself is closer to the current Laurel, that's who I see. I think the direction they've evolved the character to fit the show and KCs abilities is a stronger choice.

I am one of those who would be much happier with an acknowledged type A controlling bitch Laurel who had a fun romance with either of the two types described. I can see the romcom potential in both.

When we say Taming of the Shrew we don't mean someone who would visit Petruchio's abuses upon her. We mean someone who sees her for what she is and actually LIKES it, and enjoys poking the bear. Because the bear NEEDS POKING, not to be surrounded by people so fearful of her wrath that they never really tell her what's what, how she comes across, etc.

Do you know how hard I ship Stan and Peggy on Mad Men? VERY hard. Imagine if they established a new character who could develop that kind of mutual grudge relationship with Laurel. The kind of guy who, if she received roses for Valentine's Day, would say "I didn't realize your cat had that kind of money." She needs to be made fun of because she is so tightly wound. People like that need that sort of thing. It would make her much more likeable.

And to me the biggest problem with Laurel, over all seasons, is that nothing about her presence delivers FUN. There is nothing to enjoy. Her fault or not, her scenes...they are never fun. Fun doesn't have to mean funny. There is just nothing to enjoy there. I never look forward to her showing up because I know she = no fun.

Edited April 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, when I say Taming of the Shrew I'm thinking more 10 Things I Hate About You, less actual Shakespeare. But the gist of it is that Imo, Laurel needs someone who makes HER break character and smile. Pretty much what Oliver needed and they got with Felicity, but tailored for Laurel.

I kind of think they were gonna try for a version of this with Ted Grant, if he had stayed on the show. But the fact that their relationship was pretty much built upon Sara's death kind of sucked the actual FUN out of it from the get go.

Actually, the best thing this show could do re: Laurel is stop killing the people around her.

[catrox14]

I don't think laurel is/we intended to be a fun character. The is nothing so far in Laurels history that tells me she was the fun daughter or even allowed herself to be fun. To me laurel doesn't respect "fun" because IMO in her world fun = no responsiblity,immaturity even death.

I thought the only reason she finally stuck with Tommy was because Tommy changed. He become more mature, meaning he settled down, became serious about life, ran the nightclub etc. Tommy had very little snark by the time he died because his world imploded. I've also had the opinion that Laurel liked Tommy because Tommy loved her, not because Tommy brought out a lightness in her. MV

Edited April 12, 2015 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

But that's the thing about this trope -- Laurel doesn't need to be fun. In fact, she needs to be the no fun, stuck up straight man that this hypothetical guy can *make fun of* for it to work. It's not Laurel that needs to have fun [although, boy, could she use it], it's the *audience* that needs to have fun watching her.

[ostentatious]

I don't think laurel is/we intended to be a fun character. The is nothing so far in Laurels history that tells me she was the fun daughter or even allowed herself to be fun. To me laurel doesn't respect "fun" because IMO in her world fun = no responsiblity,immaturity even death.

I thought the only reason she finally stuck with Tommy was because Tommy changed. He become more mature, meaning he settled down, became serious about life, ran the nightclub etc. Tommy had very little snark by the time he died because his world imploded. I've also had the opinion that Laurel liked Tommy because Tommy loved her, not because Tommy brought out a lightness in her. MV

Yeah, that's why I'm saying she needs to BECOME fun for me, via a fun LI.

I'm talking character rehab. What it would take to make me not groan and roll my eyes expecting her presence to be ugh.

And I think he needs to not be a major DCU guy, but a new character like Diggle or someone obscure like Felicity. No baggage.

Edited April 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[nksarmi]

Honestly, I would love to see her start up a relationship with someone who we think is a good guy and actually turns out to be bad. I always find those story lines kinda fun. Especially when the hero begins to realize that they might be being fooled and then begins to turn the tables on the bad guy. It also could run the whole season, where maybe we don't find out until the mid-season cliffhanger. Then its just the audience knowing something the characters don't for a few episodes, and then the LL could find out. She sorta did that with Blood, except we knew he was bad, but I did enjoy it. I think it would work for KC/LL because it would also help to then have an organic way to lose the relationship without needing another death or tragic injury like McKenna. It wouldn't provide long-term happiness, but it might make for a more dramatic show/character arc. It also is a way to keep her in the main plot, without isolating on her own plotline.

Ehh.  If we are going to go the path of they think he's one way, but he turns out to be another - I'd rather she finds herself attracted to a guy who they think is a bad guy or at least someone with questionable morals - who turns out to be a really good guy.  This could be someone who works security for the bad guys, but it really just trying to make ends meet and couldn't find another job - and he hates what he is doing kind of thing.  I would also settle on an EMT person who finds and fixes her up without turning her in (yes I did just watch the second episode of Daredevil on Netflix :)). 

 

Also, no matter what they do for Laurel Lance's LI, this would be a good opportunity to add a little diversity to what people have referred to as a mostly white cast.  So I would love to see them do this, but only if he is really a good guy.  Bringing in a minority to make him a villain would be a shame. Plus Laurel needs someone to make us like her more - not make the audience laugh at her because she turns out to be an idiot who doesn't know she's being played.

[ostentatious]

Only way I can handle secret villain LI for her is if he's a decoy for the real LI, who is the bear-poker of my dreams.

[nksarmi]

Only way I can handle secret villain LI for her is if he's a decoy for the real LI, who is the bear-poker of my dreams.

Because the bear needs to be poked well and often. :)

[ostentatious]

Because the bear needs to be poked well and often. :)

I mean no way she slept with Sebastian and I really don't think she slept with Big Dick Paul, so tragically Oliver may actually be the last time. No wonder she's on edge.

[catrox14]

I guess I don't care if Laurel is a fun character. She is such a lost cause for me that no matter who they put her with will just be character propping for her. I just can't forget the 2.5 years of who she is, with 2.5 months of retconning to make her what they want me to like and it's just too late.

As long as she stays away from Oliver, Diggle, Zombie Tommy, Malcolm, Roy, and Nyssa, I don't care who she has a relationship with. LOL

[looptab]

Yeah, when I say Taming of the Shrew I'm thinking more 10 Things I Hate About You, less actual Shakespeare. But the gist of it is that Imo, Laurel needs someone who makes HER break character and smile. Pretty much what Oliver needed and they got with Felicity, but tailored for Laurel.

 

Poor guys, they tried, but must have taken the wrong measures. I remember  the episode after Thea wrecked her car and Laurel was vouching for her to work at CNRI, and there were Oliver and Laurel answering in unison to Thea's question in two different moments. Which would have been cute, except did they sound fake as hell.

 

Instead a moment that stuck with me was when she had to go help Tommy  choose a chef for Verdant (do they even have a kitchen?) and she said she had put on her fat-pants or something. That is one of the few moments she felt genuine and seemed human to me. Agreed on the need to stop killing people all around her, and all around everyone, really. At this pace, ther'll be no one left. (And a character or two might end in a psychiatric facility in the meantime).

[statsgirl]

Are we sure she didn't sleep with Ted Grant? They did go out to dinner together.

 

I could probably counter that with the fact that when Dinah saw Sara going on the ship with Oliver, she kept that shit to herself.  If Laurel was the favorite, there is no way in hell that Dinah would've let Sara go so easily.

Dinah didn't let her go easily -- she argued with her but Sara was adamant that she was in love and she was going to go.  She beat ever after (Salvation) until till Sara came back.  (I think any parent of a teenager would agree that once they've made up their mind, there's no changing it, especially a teenager who thinks she's in love.)

 

If Sara were the screw-up, Dinah might well have thought "oh well, she's going to mess up anyways, we'll deal with the fall-out at the end as we always do,"

 

After Sara died, what would have been the point to tell Quentin and Laurel that she saw Sara before she left?

 

 

I think we can both agree that there's a huge difference between going after henchmen and singlehandedly trying to attack an organization.

 

No one tries to attack an organization by themselves (except Oliver with Ra's).  Given Laurel's skill level at the time and how a guy with her baseball bat had put her in the hospital, , I'd argue that it could have been suicidal going after just one henchman.

 

 

And yea, if she was chasing money then she wouldn't have been a defense attorney.

 

The problem with her relationship with Tommy was that the show always presented it as a charity type situation. She didn't really love him yet she didn't want to hurt him and when he tried hard enough, she'd reward him.

A defense attorney at CNRI.  Top defense attorneys earn far more than prosecutors do, which accounts for why so many DAs and Crowns move to the other side.

She was also just starting out as an attorney so she may have thought she'd get more experience at CNRI than as years as a junior in a big law firm.  But cynicism aside, I do think that having her work at CNRI was to show how much she wanted to save the world. But they messed that up when she turned Tommy's fund-raiser down because she assumed he only offered "to get into [her] pants."  Narcissism and lack of empathy.

 

I agree they presented it as charity on Laurel's part, which is why it hit her so hard when Tommy died saving her life and she realized that he really was The One for her..

[nksarmi]

You know since this show loves their triangles so much - maybe they should bring in two new actors and put Laurel in the middle of one where on is a bad guy and one is a good guy and we can spend the season wondering if she is going to figure out the right one to choose.  And hopefully both of them will make her laugh (and me while they are at it because this show needs more laughter!).

 

I don't necessarily want this for her - but if the show MUST do a triangle (and it seems like they must) at least that would keep the triangle away from Oliver and Felicity.

[ostentatious]

My instinct is that she didn't sleep with Ted. And if she did, how sad that the show didn't think it was at all important. I mean it's one thing to elide Big Dick Paul and Blood, but Wildcat? That should've mattered enough to make clear, if so.

[Starfish35]

I don't think she slept with Ted. I'm not sure they even dated. I know the show was intending to go that way, but I don't think it ever happened.

[statsgirl]

She was really upset when she thought that Ted had died in the fight with Brick so maybe she did have feelings for him.  But we know that she stopped training with him several weeks before she showed up to ask him for help in The Big Fight.

 

Should this be a fic?  Laurel and Ted Grant get close, bedmates close, but as Laurel realizes she wants to be the Black Canary and put on her sister's mantel, she knows that Ted would not approve and so she engineers a break-up, only to realize she needs his help in the fight.  (Cue all the Laurel emotions.)

[tv echo]

She was also just starting out as an attorney so she may have thought she'd get more experience at CNRI than as years as a junior in a big law firm.  But cynicism aside, I do think that having her work at CNRI was to show how much she wanted to save the world. But they messed that up when she turned Tommy's fund-raiser down because she assumed he only offered "to get into [her] pants."  Narcissism and lack of empathy.

In "The Return", didn't we find out that Laurel originally planned to work for a big law firm in San Francisco but then her father basically shamed her into changing her plans and that's why she ended up working for a nonprofit like CNRI?  I don't recall the exact conversation (and I don't want to watch that episode again), so maybe someone else has a better recollection.  

 

EDITED TO ADD: Here are the relevant dialogue excerpts from "The Return" (source doesn't identify who says what, but you can guess)...

 

Takes more than some fancy corporate law firm job for some of us to get over Sara's death.

I love you, so I'm going to pretend like you didn't say that, and I'm going to drive you home.

 

I heard you decided to go corporate in San Francisco instead of saving the world in Starling City.

I realized that maybe the world can't be saved.

 

Hanging around with billionaire playboys like some kind of gold digger?

Taking on a sell out job in San Francisco. Is that what this is about?

When Sara died, you said you wanted to go to law school 'cause you wanted to make the world a better place.

Wethersby Posner is one of the most prestigious firms in the country.

You said you wanted to help people.

All you'd be doing there is helping fat cats get fatter.

You know, maybe this sermon would have a little bit more credibility if you weren't so lit right now.

Well, I don't need to be sober to see what you're doing with your life.

 

Things with your father seemed, uh, they seemed tense.

Your roommate told me you were taking a job here.

I said that couldn't be true, that you were going to work for a white shoe firm.

Ah, I was.

And then someone reminded me why I became a lawyer in the first place.

You want to tell me about it over dinner?

Edited April 13, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

In "The Return", didn't we find out that Laurel originally planned to work for a big law firm in San Francisco but then her father basically shamed her into changing her plans and so she went to work for the nonprofit CNRI?  I don't recall the exact conversation (and I don't want to watch that episode again), so maybe someone else here has a better recollection.  

 

Incidentally, I thought this revelation (retcon) kinda undermined the whole "always trying to save the world" and "always headed for the mask" themes that have been pushed at us.

She had convos with both Tommy & her Dad that helped her understand that CNRI was more the reason she wanted to be a lawyer in the first place. They helped her remember her inspiration for law school. The tone of some of QL's speeches in that episode could be interpreted as "shaming" but I think that was more to show how badly the drinking was effecting who he was. If I remember right, after the harsh speech in the bar, he later had a more heart-full talk with LL about her choice to move to SF & choice of law firm that was not "shaming" but more caring.

 

I don't mind the "always trying to save the world" because I think its just a one liner they use to inform the backstory of a character. They get just roughly 20hrs each season to tell us about the characters & all they stories that surround them. The writer do not have the liberty to go through and show us the backstory of every reason why people are the way they are. So this line never bothered me because I just considered it to be a global statement that makes up for not being able to show us everything from the past. Just like there have been lines about all the main characters that have been thrown in to inform the audience of consistent character behavior or intentions.

 

The "always headed for the mask" was just utter bullshit & I agree with you that it has been forced on us. I believe a lot of us on the forum & on other sites mentioned that this line was utter ridiculousness. Nothing in the show or the show's backstory have indicated that LL was always headed for the mask. The only indicator was that she was named "dinah laurel lance" and those who come from the comics know that she is the BC, but that doesn't mean that the LL on the show has always been heading for the mask. That was the producers intent to eventually get there, but they never wrote that into the script or characterization.

 

LL stumbled into being BC because she wanted to honor her sister & fight for her city/justice (or at least do more than being an ADA). Those are noble reasons for a hero's journey, there is no reason you have to attempt to retcon it that she was always heading towards being a masked vigilante. There are many ways to achieve honoring her sister & fighting for justice/city. I.e. working at CNRI or being a ADA are perfect ways in which she proved she believed in fighting for justice. It would have been better for them to keep with the saving the world theme. Perhaps she could have said something like I was always heading down this path, I just found another way. But the writers, tend to make poor writing/script decisions when it comes to LL, so who knows why they do that? They have an idea & then almost always push the writing too far to make their point, when if they edited it back a little it would not make LL seem so extreme in her characterization.

[tv echo]

I've edited my post above because I found a transcript of "The Return" and added quotes of the relevant dialogue from that episode.