Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[willpwr]

No, but the writer's don't control her tone, body language or facial expressions. 

[Betweenthisandthat]

I started Arrow this summer and knew about the Laurel Lance...what do I call it?  "Hate"?  "Dislike"?  Whatever it is, I knew about it before watching and honestly after seeing the show on my own, I have to say that I like her as much as any female character on this show.  Yes, she has annoyed me but so have Thea, Sara, Felicity, and Moira. I don't see anything incredibly flawed in the acting, and I don't find her any worse than Stephen Amell or anyone else. I also don't see anything unredeemable in the character's actions.

 

So, for the next season, I'd like to see her in another romantic relationship while keeping some kind of friendship with Oliver.  I don't think they'd work together as a couple given all the baggage they have, but I'm found of the idea of the two of them reaching some understanding and respect for what the other does.  I like Laurel's place on the show as a lawyer who is working with Team Arrow in her own way.  I still wonder how the show will turn her into Black Canary or whatever she becomes.  We saw scenes of her and Thea together here and there since season 1 and I hope that continues, where she becomes a bridge between Oliver and Thea or whatever is going on between them this season.  My biggest wish is for the show to give all the characters something to work with and not just the supposed fan favorites.  I love Felicity and hope to see her become a more complex character, but she and Olicity aren't what drew me to the show and it's not why I'm waiting for season 3 to start.  Arrow is at its best when it does what it wants with these characters, not what we might seem to expect or demand.  That's just my take. 

[Angel12d]

I'm having trouble thinking of intentional character flaws too. I honestly can't think of any right now, apart from her being completely indecisive in the way she acted with Oliver in s1 (first she hated him, then she wanted him, then she hated him…ugh the back and forth was tedious and made me completely unsympathetic towards her). I think that's part of the problem though, especially in s1, because she was written as this saintly do-gooder who was fighting for those in need but the way KC played it just didn't come across. How are we supposed to relate to a character who is presumably flawless? It just doesn't work.

 

I know they tried to fix that in s2 with the addiction storyline (even saints have problems!) but again, the way they half-assed it just didn't make me warm to her. They really had a lot of chances to fix Laurel (maybe have her happy her sister was alive instead of accusing her of stealing her life... etc…) but they squandered them all. I honestly have no idea what they were thinking. I just hope they can pull it back but I'm doubtful.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Angel12d

[wonderwall]

No, but the writer's don't control her tone, body language or facial expressions. 

I know. I feel as though whatever flaws Laurel has right now isn't there because of the writer's intention. Either they accidentally wrote her as the list you pointed out, or because KCs acting (tone, body language, expressions) made it seem she was like that. 

 

For season 3, I'm pretty sure the writers are going to try their hardest not to make Laurel seem that way. It's up to KC to actually make an effort at making her character look sympathetic and not at all like a self-centered, entitled, idiot. Considering KCs track record, I'm not very optimistic. 

[Starfish35]

I suppose, yes, the addiction is supposed to be an intentional flaw. I don't know why that didn't occur to me. Perhaps it was intended to humanize her a little, make her more sympathetic. But like I said earlier, addiction arcs are difficult generally speaking, even with a character that the audience already cares about. They have to already empathize with the character to a certain degree. If they already hate the character? It's a bad choice.

I know this is kind of a blanket statement, and certainly I know there will be exceptions, people who were drawn to her because of that arc. But I think largely the people who don't have a problem with it or who sympathized with her are likely the people who were already her fans or inclined to be so. I doubt there were very many actually won over by it, especially because of how badly handled it was. If they had actually had the guts to get down and dirty with it....to show the build, to show it affecting her, to have it have actual real lasting consequences? If they had used it to actually break Laurel down and turn her into someone else (like the whole "island experience" thing is supposed to?) I don't know. But they didn't. Laurel at the end of season two is pretty much the same person as she was at the beginning of season two, just with a few AA meetings added to her calendar.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

A flaw of Laurel's that particularly annoys me is that she makes a unilateral decision and then expects everyone else to jump to carry it out.  She did it with Oliver about moving in together (she thought they should, he sort of agreed, she set about looking at apartments determined to have one ready to move in with him when he got back from his trip. She also did it with Tommy, told him to ask Oliver for a job and when she found out he hadn't, she made a scene in public.  That's not to say she wasn't right about Tommy but you can't move people around like pieces on a chess board.

 

She can also be very cruel to those people she is supposed to love, especially if they don't behave the way they're supposed to according to Laurel..  Having the woman who her mother thought was Sara just show up in Salvation instead of first telling her mother that she was mistaken was an awful thing to do.  She was mean to her father about his addiction and marriage break-up. Yes, it must have been hard to go to bars and get him home when he was drunk but she was adult by then and living away from  home.  Not much sympathy for his pain, it was always about how her boyfriend and sister cheated on her and then died.  And when Sara did come home, Laurel yelled at her that Sara had ruined her life and threw her glass at the door.  And that's not even talking about how she treated Oliver in the first part of season 1 till she decided she was in love with him after all, and how disposable Tommy was to her once she found out Oliver was available.

 

She has a two tier standard for people. There are those who she deems worthy of knowing, like the rich Queen family and Malcolm Merlyn, and those who aren,t like Sara when she first came back, and Diggle and Felicity.  Her expectation to be seated immediately at the hot new restaurant instead of waiting like other people fits into it.  (In contrast, Sara and Felicity both accept people for who they are, rich or poor.)

 

While I see these traits as flaws, I don't think the writers do and that's where the disconnect comes in.

 

For example, lack of chemistry aside, an acknowledgement from Oliver and Laurel that they never really knew each other and their past relationship was based on a false image of each other would go a long way toward allowing them to make a fresh start on even rebuilding a friendship. But instead the writers throw all this crap about how Laurel has always known Oliver better than anyone else, and meanwhile we're screaming "are you out of your delusional mind?"

Another thing would be to have her actually have to work to win over Diggle and Roy, as far as being part of the team. And for the love of everything, if they have her giving relationship advice to Felicity about Oliver (or anyone for that matter) I might actually break something.

If Laurel starts giving Felicity relationship advice about Oliver, I hope Felcity breaks something, preferably over Laurel's head. That superiority and assumption that she knows better than anyone else is one of the most annoying things about her.

 

You're right, having Oliver and Laurel acknowledge that they were both selfish kids who were in love with a fantasy of the other would help a great deal in their relationship (and possible lead to getting back together a few years down the line, heaven forfend), and so would having to work to win over Diggle and Roy.

 

Part of the problem is that Laurel gets handed everything on a silver platter by the show -- Oliver's true love, a great law career she's too young to have earned, everyone saying how wonderful she is.  Make her work for all that, writers, like Roy has to and Sara and Felicity, and we might like her more.

Edited September 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[willpwr]

http://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-character-and-personality

 

I guess I'm just not sure what the outward mask is and what her true character is. I see the writers as given her personality traits via her actions and KC as giving Laurel character traits based on her tone and other things and that's why Laurel doesn't ring true to me. However, I could have misunderstood that whole personality vs character thing. On paper, without watching anything I would normally sympathize with someone like Laurel.

[Chaser]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

[wonderwall]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

Let me guess, did you ask someone on tumblr? :p As much as I love that site for its creativity and how fast news spreads, It gets annoying that people there tend to overreact. Histrionics and tumblr are sometimes synonymous. 

 

As for me, I've always had issues with Laurel pre and post Felicity. She's a large reason why I quit watching the show in season 1. I always checked out of her scenes because I've always found her to be grating and her character had no purpose other than being Oliver's love interest. Also the writers were also pushing Oliver/Laurel so hard and I found them to be ridiculously disgusting. Laurel was self-centered from the beginning and relatively flat as well. Not to mention I wasn't a fan of KCs portrayal of Laurel, she made Laurel seem so one note. She brought nothing to the show and still doesn't. 

[statsgirl]

Something I hate in a person, male or female, is narcissism and entitlement.  Laurel lost me the minute she turned off the TV when all her colleagues were watching.  Without a word to them, she picked up the remote and turned it off.   I had decided to stop watching after the pilot episode, and then I caught a glimpse of Oliver interacting with Felicity and I was back in.

 

Also,  I don't think Laurel is broken.  Oliver is broken, Sara is broken, I can even argue that Felicity is somewhat broken by having her father walk out on them and not getting along with her mother.  Laurel had a stable family with two loving parents until her boyfriend took off with her sister and then she went on to go to law school, have a good career and a guy who really loved her (Tommy).

 

I bet there are a number of people on this board who are refugees or from broken homes or who have lost parents or siblings or have serious illnesses.  Laurel as broken?  IMO not even close.

 

ETA:  How is Sherlock broken?  I see John Watson somewhat broken from the war at the start of the series but Sherlock is more arrogant ass than broken.

Edited September 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[Angel12d]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

 

Omg you're talking about that tumblr post, right? I saw that and wanted to rage too.

 

My dislike of Laurel has ZERO to do with Felicity/Olicity. I had problems with her character and how KC portrayed her long before Felicity was even on my radar. I didn't like her in the PILOT. There was a harshness about her that I found instantly off-putting. The way they wrote her as this saintly do-gooder was so heavy handed, as was the constant O/L one true love thing which I couldn't get to grips with because their backstory was so disgusting and toxic. And when Laurel was so back and forth with her feelings for Oliver and Tommy I just ended up so frustrated and angry because she had a guy who loved and adored her and wanted to prove himself to her and she broke his heart to go back with a guy who broke hers by sleeping with her sister. How could I possibly be sympathetic to that?!

 

I really hate when people assume that just because we like Olicity we automatically hate Laurel. One is not synonymous with the other. People are more than capable of separating their likes and dislikes. It's insulting to our intelligence by suggesting otherwise. 

[TanyaKay]

I think her rudeness is an intentional flaw. I mean it is not just her acting, she was given the choicest bitchy dialogues in season 1, whether she was talking to Tommy, Oliver, her dad or her mom, she has shown her claws and it was not just her attitude, it was in the dialogues. She also was quite rude to Thea in episode 2x12 when she tried to help her at Verdant.

[Chaser]

LOL Seriously I was so naive….

 

Call me crazy for treating Laural as a character and not a female character. How anti-feminist of me!

 

I checked out mid way through the first season (after Felicity was introduced) because I couldn't stand Laurel. I only went back because my parents convinced me. Still didn't like Laurel, but I liked Team Arrow more. Didn't start shipping Olicity till mid way through S2.

 

People are broken, I get that. Write me a female character that is broken. Write one with depth and strength. That has flaws and humor. Consistency at the very least.

 

And yes I will raise my hand. My sister walked out on the family. She struggles with mental illness. I know broken.

[TanyaKay]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

 

Oh I hated Laurel way before Felicity ever entered the Arrow verse, that is in her very first scene.

By the time Laurel appeared on our screens, we have established that Oliver has been through a lot of shit in his life so I was somewhat sympathetic towards him. Then she switched the TV off without caring about her colleagues who were watching TV and I was like what is wrong with this woman! They in the span of the same episode, she changed her opinion of Oliver twice and I got headache from this whiplash.

Then came second episode and she gallactically insulted Oliver in court building in front of Tommy, a mutual acquaintance, her colleague and her client, two strangers and I hated her more. Then came third episode where she tried to be bad ass by beating up Max Fuller and even that looked forced too and I was out. Felicity made her appearance after I had firmly decided that I am gonna hate Laurel. The only time I felt remotely sympathetic towards her was when Sara and Oliver ambushed her in her house at the family dinner but that was just once and it went away quickly.

 

Just because you are a woman does not mean you are suppose to love every female character on every TV show. I hated Serena Van der Woodsen of Gossip Girl with the same gusto for the same reasons - that she was a self absorbed, narcissistic entitled bitch and I stand by that.

[statsgirl]

Yes. Anyone who struggles with mental illness, especially ones like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, that's truly hard.

 

Just my opinion, but if someone thinks that Laurel is broken, the argument is already lost because you're on two vastly different playing fields.  

 

By the way, was it Oliver's and Sara's suffering that broke Laurel then?  Because she was safe at home while they were fighting for survival.  One of the reasons I don't like Laurel is because I'm expected to feel sorry for her when of all the younger characters on the show, she had it the best.

 

My bad because he's a male but I'd argue that Tommy, losing his mother at age 8 and having Malcolm Merlyn as a father who first abandoned him and then cut him off entirely because he didn't like what he was doing, is more broken than Laurel.  Then there was Roy, with a father who left and a druggie mother.  Sin's mother died of cancer and her in a plane crash when she was still very young and she grew up on the streets.

 

Or Thea, losing her father and brother when she was 12, and then having her mother shut herself off from her remaining child, then losing her beloved stepfather, and watching her mother murdered in front of her, not to mention being choked by her boyfriend. I don't think of Thea as broken, but her life has been a lot more traumatic than Laurel's.

Edited September 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

That's one of the biggest problems with Laurel: We are supposed to watch these struggles and watch her evolution but compared to the other action heroes (Oliver, Sara, Diggle) it isn't there. We aren't seeing any growth. She supposedly went through this dramatic addiction storyline but she isn't any different. She just has a fancy chip now.

[FurryFury]

Yeah "you're anti-feminist if you dislike/hate Laurel" is basically the same as "You are a homophobe if you dislike non-canon slash ship X" in many fandoms - people hiding their opinions under the layer of social justice. I find it completely disgusting and disrespectful in regards to real problems.

 

Personally, I'm usually willing to cut major female characters all kinds of slack. I actually don't even watch shows that are too dominated by male characters (so, no Breaking Bad for me), simply because I tend to find female/male and female/female relationships (not ships, relationships) much more compelling than male/male. But Laurel rubbed me the wrong way since early s1, because she's a  badly written, badly acted mess of a character. And her being female has nothing to do with it... although her being sharply defined as a love interest first, everything else second does (she'd probably be way more tolerable were she to be Oliver's cop contract instead of her father, or working with him, or anything else that would give her an actual place in the narrative).

Edited September 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[Chaser]

Thanks for responses guys :-)

 

Probably the wrong place to vent that, but you'll are awesome.

[scarynikki12]

Laurel as a character was lost for me at the beginning of season 2 when Sara kicked ass onto my screen as the perfect Black Canary. 

 

Before that I was fine, if indifferent, with the character.  Her season 1 arc was very CW: conflicting feelings for the male lead, a temporary relationship with another male character to set up a quasi-love triangle, a great (if low paying) job as shorthand for her being a Good Person, and giving into her feelings for the male lead while leading on the other male character.  Change some minor details and that description can describe most of the CW heroines.  I was expecting exactly that since the pilot (where I thought Laurel's foundation was pretty solid even if I knew that she'd be very CW in subsequent presentation), so it didn't phase me in the slightest.  I found that I actively enjoyed her scenes with Tommy but, having watched both television and the CW before, I didn't bother to get emotionally invested in their relationship.

 

Then came season 2 and the return of Sara Lance.  Honestly, if the show had flat out said that they were going in a different direction with Laurel, no longer intending to make her the Black Canary (instead bringing in brand new character Sara to fill that role), then I probably wouldn't have ended up actively disliking Laurel as much as I do.  And, for maybe the first third of the season, it did seem as if the show had their Canary and was moving in a different direction with Laurel, so I was still pretty neutral towards her.  Then something happened, either the producers realized they'd done too good a job with their intended temporary Canary, The CW realized they'd done too good a job with the Canary, Cassidy's reps reminded them of the contracts (unlikely as I seriously doubt her contract explicitly says she'll become the Black Canary no matter what), some DC exec called and told them to get back on track because: Comics (also unlikely given how much Geoff Johns loves Sara and, of all people, he'd recognize that Laurel doesn't even go by Dinah so the COMICS reason doesn't really wash), or some other possible reason I haven't thought of.  Right about when the Huntress came back the tone of the show shifted ever so slightly and, when paired with the interviews from the producers, it started to feel more and more that the character of Sara would be sacrificed so that Laurel would take on her role. 

 

That's what made me mad.  No character should be sacrificed so that another has something to do.  As we've discussed since Sara showed up, there are so many things that can be done with Laurel without making her the Black Canary.  She can work her ass off as a lawyer, helping to make the justice system of Starling City honest so that there's no need for a vigilante (and this would actually be a great series long story for the character).  She can become one of the lesser known vigilantes like Manhunter, relying on intelligence more so than physical prowess when fighting criminals.  She can even become jaded with the law due to the seemingly never ending corruption of her city and do something else.  She can also become a full on villain, playing to Cassidy's strengths and what she's mainly known for, and show her descend into that role in contrast to Sara and Oliver learning how to be heroes.  Pair her up with an as yet uncast long term villain and have some fun.  Instead I and others are just counting the days until Sara is sacrificed for Laurel when we should be excited for where ALL the characters are headed and waiting with baited breath to see what happens next.

[Sunshine]

I came into this show expecting to root for Laurel right away based on what I had read about the show.  I had never heard of Cassidy before the pilot.  I have pretty much hated her since the moment she appeared on my screen.  I think the EPs/writers were going for conflicted (which would explain the back and forth) but she just came across as an over the top drama queen and it was all about her.  It wasn't exactly what I was expecting from a "kind, compassionate, caring" lawyer.  The narrative has repeatedly told me Laurel was one thing but the portrayal said something else entirely.    This is my other problem with Laurel.  They throw all these wonderful labels on her but they don't actual show any of it.  For me the only way I knew she had an addiction was because Quentin and Oliver were always asking if she was okay.  There was never any out-of-character behavior actually shown.  It's a TV show.  It's okay to tell things from time to time but I really need you to show me too.

[Lord Kira]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

 

I disliked her since the pilot. I didn't hate her then, but she was definitely the worst thing about the show for me.

 

I had just come off of Smallville, so them setting her up as the epic star-crossed lovers in the pilot gave me flashbacks of "LANA!!!!" I tried to suppress. So that was already one mark against her. The second was the fact that she seems to be based on the worst aspect of the Nolan Batman movies: Rachel Dawes. 

 

I'd be able to get over both of those if the writing and acting was good, but neither was. In addition to Laurel being inconsistent, it did not help that the pilot also set up a love triangle with Tommy (which made me fear the show would be too "CW"). Add on the fact that the writers kept telling us how great she was without ever showing it... I just couldn't like her.

 

The addition of Felicity just highlighted the flaws with the Laurel character because Felicity was so vibrant, funny, and charismatic. EBR brought a charm to the character that all of the other female characters lacked at the time.

[FurryFury]

And, for maybe the first third of the season, it did seem as if the show had their Canary and was moving in a different direction with Laurel, so I was still pretty neutral towards her.  Then something happened,

 

You know, I still can't understand why the hell the show backpedaled on Sara so quickly. I guess part of it are some disgruntled Felicity/Olicity fans who were very vocal in their dislike of Sara stealing the spotlight for a while (I do agree that Team Arrow got the shaft in middle s2, but I don't see Sara as the reason - the so-called "Lance family drama" was all about Laurel, not her), but then, they hate Laurel so much more... I don't get it. It's possible KC or her agents influenced that, or the network, whatever - the end result was Laurel's return to prominence and Sara being written out in an awful, contrived, almost character destroying manner. And I simply can't watch a show that started (and will continue) to sacrifice a well-written, interesting, kick-ass character for the sake of her inconsistently written and simply boring sister, who's pretty much hated in fandom to boot.

 

And yeah, I don't see why it's so necessary to make Laurel BC. Manhunter, villain, whatever - why can't she be given something of her own? Why is there is only one place for a superhero Lance sister?

[Starfish35]

Yeah "you're anti-feminist if you dislike/hate Laurel" is basically the same as "You are a homophobe if you dislike non-canon slash ship X" in many fandoms - people hiding their opinions under the layer of social justice. I find it completely disgusting and disrespectful in regards to real problems.

This.

I shouldn't have gone looking for that post, because now I'm seething mad too. :(

But let me just add a couple of things. My feelings about Laurel are well known, and I don't give a damn about Olicity. And judging from comments I've read other places, I'm not the only anti-Laurel fan that doesn't care about Olicity (not criticizing the Olicity fans, to be clear). I'm not saying there isn't some "die for your ship" stuff going on, but you're ignoring a lot if you think that's all it is.

And secondly, I'm really really tired of certain fans trying to rewrite history by perpetrating this myth that Laurel hate did not start until Felicity showed up because that is absolutely not true. I read the comments on the entertainment sites after the pilot aired, and I don't think anyone got more complaints than Laurel/Katie Cassidy (although Thea would have been second). And that was before Felicity had had a second of screentime. Felicity and Olicity became popular due to the failure of Laurel Lance as a character and Lauriver as a ship, not the other way around, no matter what certain fans would have you believe. Don't believe me? Name me one other live action het fandom that so completely rejected its lead female character and substituted a minor recurring female character in her place. That doesn't happen. Het fandoms in my experience nearly invariably ship the leads and/or canon. (I'm specifying het because the rules seem to work a little differently in slash-heavy fandoms.) Felicity and Olicity became so popular because there was a void created by the failure of Laurel/Lauriver and fandom was looking for something to fill its place. If it hadn't been Felicity it would have been someone else. (Let's not even talk about the Queencest thing that I was starting to see in some places. When fandom is more willing to ship you with your sister than with the supposed love of your life, there might be an issue.)

And I'll stop ranting now.

ETA: I should probably add - I'm responding more to some things said in that post than to the discussion here, if anyone's confused about where this came from.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[Nanrad]

Starfish, that was the truth. Laurel fans are the ones pretending that she only got hated because Felicity came along, but that is completely false. I was reading comments on TWOP and she was hated since the beginning.

 

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

 

Before I begin, can someone link me this tumblr post? I might have to say something.

 

Laurel was an issue from the first moment I saw her. I thought it was odd (I'm not sure if I thought it was rude) that she turned off the TV when others were watching it. But, I just couldn't stand her when she told Oliver that she wished that he had died on that island. I understand that she lost a sister, but that man just spent five years on an island--did she think that was a five year vacation or something. Then it was just all of the whiplash and contradictoriness going on as well as the telling and not showing. 

 

As someone who vocally identifies as a feminist, your friend's idea of a feminist is appalling. Sure, women tend to be labeled as whiny more, but I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to label. I think Laurel is the first female character that I ever called whiny. (I'm using that word because I believe that is one of the things your friend is referring to). Also, my hate for her doesn't compare to Mike Ross from "Suits" who is also whiny. His character doesn't suffer from bad writing and acting--he's just a terrible character who is also whiny. So, if Laurel was a male, I would hate her too. The issue is that since female characters have been criticized more since TV series have existed, any criticism now is seen as sexist, especially because of Skylar from Breaking Bad.

 

These type of Laurel fans are obsessed with Felicity/Olicity fans and why they believe that Laurel is ("unfairly") disliked--it can never be on her own merit. But, that is the only reason why I dislike her--her own merit. Feminism is about equality, I'm not being equal if I didn't criticize Laurel because she is a female; I criticize her because she is problematic character who happens to be female. My criticism has nothing to do with her gender, but rather, terrible character development, poor acting choices, and overall WTFness at the storyline. 

[Starfish35]

EDITED to remove post link - sorry about that. :(

---

You know what? Call me anything you like. I've been a fan of a long list of female characters over the years, and a few of those have been damn unpopular (Juliette on Grimm, Catherine on Hawaii Five-0, Bishop on NCIS, to name just three). I know it's not fun being a fan of an unpopular character. But I feel under no obligation to support and like a character just BECAUSE she is female. That's absurd.

ETA: I got pissed off when I read the post and never answered the question. When did Laurel become an issue for me? Day one. And it was pretty much all Katie Cassidy - from the beginning her acting annoyed the hell out of me. Not saying the writing wasn't an issue too, but wow - Cassidy was not selling it to me. Miscasting of epic proportions is what I'm saying here. I was still open to improvements however even into season two, but when Sara came along.....for so many reasons that kind of killed it. I could probably tolerate her if they'd give up on making her BC, because that would mean Sara wouldn't be sacrificed to promote her, but as long as Sara's life is on the line for Laurel's so-called destiny, I don't see it happening.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[FurryFury]

But, I just couldn't stand her when she told Oliver that she wished that he had died on that island.

 

Huh, I actually liked that. It made sense. I'd probably feel the same in her place.

It was her backsliding - way too soon - that irked me. She felt this way for years, why would she change her mind in a few hours (or a day, whatever)? It made zero sense and felt shoehorned in to show how wonderful and forgiving she is. It was the first sign of the inconsistency that would plague her character for the remainder of the show (well, show's not done yet, but does anyone seriously believes all problems with Laurel will ever be solved?)

Edited September 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[TanyaKay]

Back in the day when heir to the demon first aired, and Sara & Oliver hooked up and quite a few fans were pissed at that lunge - not all of them Oliciters - the same poster wrote something similar defending Sara Lance. Even though most people like Sara and thought that hook up was OOC and no one called her names but if I recall correctly, she called people misogynist back then as well.

[wonderwall]

I think we can better spend our time talking about Arrow than some tumblr user who doesn't really deserve our time. Some people will never change. 

 

Let's just all agree that she's completely wrong and that just because Laurel's a woman it doesn't mean that anyone who hates her is a misogynist. Honestly, I think anyone who uses a real life social issue in order to invalidate our opinions about TV characters shouldn't ever be given our time or our energy. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[fantique]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

I was unimpressed by her in the pilot... I could see that the show wanted to sell me the "Laurel Lance" myth (knowing absolutely nothing about Grean Arrow I had no idea Dinal Laurel Lance meant Black Canary, I didn't even know BC existed). I watched the first season in a vacuum on Netflix and by then season 2 had started. I basically only started being aware of the fandom of the show late spring 2014 so the influence from others and expectations or other things is negligible.

Whoever gave the example of Serena Van DerWoodsen is spot on for me. I could tell this would be a character that the show was going to rave about without showing me evidence of their so-called admirable traits. The TV switch off was weird, it was like... "ok? awkward" and would have been much better if she stammered and looked more upset than pissed off while asking the people to turn it off. Or if the switch off was done by her friend and there was this whole subtext of people in the office knwoing who she was (which was likely) and feeling bad because it was tactless. I thought that it made her look unsympathetic to tear Oliver a new one at that party because for someone who seemed like they were the protagonist's twu wuv, she remained blind to the fact that he was pushing her away when refusing to share his feelings.

After that I just felt twinges of irritation and thoughts of "What's wrong with her? Isn't that totally unacceptable behaviour?" when in the courthouse or the whole pushing Tommy thing. It then became full blown annoyance and exasperation anytime she was onscreen (constant need to be rescued and outbusrts at her father definitely did not help). Season 2 definitely was when she just completely lost me. My main problem was that I thought she was completely useless and since I was unburdened by the GA/BC destiny thing, I didn't understand what she brought to the story outside of manpain potential and romantic interest/love triangle catalyst and I hate both of these things in most storylines. I think that love triangles should be banned from TV scripts for a few years so that writers learn how to write emotionally compelling stories without resorting to this cheap trick. Also love triangles have a way of making the people involved look bad. Pathetic, arsehole-ish, wishy-wahsy, etc. I get that those were first introduce to make the center look more desirable but when they go on too long and happen when the common interest is in a relationship (or CW style: bestfriend/sibbling swapping), it just makes them look awful.

With regards to Felicity comparisons, I never even considered them in the same category. They had different roles to play and until Tommy's death, it was too obvious Oliver was meant for Laurel so it's not like I compared them in "Who's better for Oliver?" way. Of course you compare characters at some point or another (especially after their interaction at Verdant) but it was never because I saw them in competition. Olicity to me only became something I could see a little bit before Sara arrived. Even then I was slightly annoyed because I felt like I wanted them to stay friends and felt Oliver was no where near operational status to deserve Felicity. While it was gross, I was kind of relieved he got with Sara just because it guaranteed they wouldn't get together in season 2 and also I liked her and thought they were emotionally compatible and obviously using each other to cope. That's how much gap there is between my dissatisfaction with Laurel and implication of her importance wrt Olicity.

 

ETA: wonderwall, truer words... I have seen quite a few comments in that directions for other characters/shows/movies and I'm pretending those people don't exist and enything they post has become irrelevant to me.

Edited September 21, 2014 by fantique

[Chaser]

@wonderwall - Thanks for the reminder! I totally got everyone off topic and I due apologize. I'm usually one to not want to spend too much time on other fans. Got a little (lots) pissed off and brought it here. Thanks for humoring me :-)

 

@MODERATER - MY BAD :-(

[wonderwall]

@wonderwall - Thanks for the reminder! I totally got everyone off topic and I due apologize. I'm usually one to not want to spend too much time on other fans. Got a little (lots) pissed off and brought it here. Thanks for humoring me :-)

 

@MODERATER - MY BAD :-(

You're too sweet! Don't apologize for being rightfully upset! I feel as though this place is a decent outlet just as long as we don't go overboard :)

 

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think we strayed off topic at all. We talked about Laurel lance and this is the Laurel Lance thread :)

Edited September 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

I removed the post link so as to not prolong the conversation. Sorry about that. :( And for letting it set me off. :(

[Nanrad]

I was just about to post my response to her for you all on here. lol

[Chaser]

@ Starfish35 - Probably a good idea. I think it set a lot of us off (It was my bad not yours). Personally though, I feel a lot better. LOL

[wonderwall]

I was just about to post my response to her for you all on here. lol

....Drats, now I'm curious. Okay, can you post it? Then we can forget about it? :p

 

ETA: No. I must fight it! :p

Edited September 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[Nanrad]

Huh, I actually liked that. It made sense. I'd probably feel the same in her place.

It was her backsliding - way too soon - that irked me. She felt this way for years, why would she change her mind in a few hours (or a day, whatever)? It made zero sense and felt shoehorned in to show how wonderful and forgiving she is. It was the first sign of the inconsistency that would plague her character for the remainder of the show (well, show's not done yet, but does anyone seriously believes all problems with Laurel will ever be solved?)

Here's why it didn't sit right with me:

 

Laurel is allowed to be human, but I think it was an inappropriate response. That response seemed to me more like something someone would say when that event just happened--not five years after. You would think she would've gotten some perspective. Even if she still hated Oliver, her emotions would've been better in check. It's inappropriate because this man just spent five years on an island, which everyone assumed was alone, and was a sole survivor of a boat crash. Only a few days back into civilization and he hears crap like that??? I understand that Sara was on the boat, but that could've been done at another time and delivered in a different way. She didn't know where his mind could've been when she told him that. 

 

That's my same issue with her confrontation with Sara: she could've said something, but at the moment she sees her sister for the first time in years??? Laure's issue is that she holds onto angry and isn't appreciative for what she has.

http://leftenantscullbagg.tumblr.com/post/98036313327/im-a-woman-and-i-dont-like-laurel-lance-im-not

[Starfish35]

@ Starfish35 - Probably a good idea. I think it set a lot of us off (It was my bad not yours). Personally though, I feel a lot better. LOL

Oh no, I was the one that made the choice to look for it, so....not your fault at all. Totally on me. Personally though, I'm feeling like right now might be a good time for me to take a deep breath and a break from fandom. *sigh* Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow and feel all better, but....it hasn't been a great week fandom wise (or real life wise either, but....that's a different story).

[FurryFury]

2Nanrad (god why don't tag buttons show on mobile interface?) - I thought it made sense because Oliver had betrayed her personally, on top of being complicit in her sister's death, in her mind. This is something you may not get over even after years. He didn't just cheat on her, or just took Sara to her death, he did both. Laurel was probably mad at both of them, but chose to focus her anger on him,as he wasn't her family.

Now, it doesn't really work with her reaction to Sara's appearance in s2, but, well, that's Laurel's character in a nutshell. For the record, I both hated her outburst at Sara and then how quickly it was swept under a rug.

Edited September 21, 2014 by FurryFury

[Starfish35]

I agree with FurryFury. Laurel's anger at Oliver made sense because he not only betrayed her, he got her sister killed (or so she believed). That's not something you just get over, no matter how long it's been.

ETA: I certainly never blamed Quentin for hating him - it would be hypocritical of me to hate Laurel for the same. The difference was - Quentin's hate of him was portrayed consistently, until he finally got past it. Laurel - not so much.

Her reaction to Sara was a different story - that was just....wow. No.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Starfish35

[Nanrad]

2Nanrad (god why don't tag buttons show on mobile interface?) - I thought it made sense because Oliver had betrayed her personally, on top of being complicit in her sister's death, in her mind. This is something you may not get over even after years. He didn't just cheat on her, or just took Sara to her death, he did both. Laurel was probably mad at both of them, but chose to focus her anger on him,as he wasn't her family.

Now, it doesn't really work with her reaction to Sara's appearance in s2, but, well, that's Laurel's character in a nutshell. For the record, I both hated her outburst at Sara and then how quickly it was swept under a rug.

Maybe it was my fault, I have high expectations for Laurel and it just didn't fit what I thought of her, which is weird because it was the pilot and I didn't know anything about her. 

[wonderwall]

Here's why it didn't sit right with me:

 

Laurel is allowed to be human, but I think it was an inappropriate response. That response seemed to me more like something someone would say when that event just happened--not five years after. You would think she would've gotten some perspective. Even if she still hated Oliver, her emotions would've been better in check. It's inappropriate because this man just spent five years on an island, which everyone assumed was alone, and was a sole survivor of a boat crash. Only a few days back into civilization and he hears crap like that??? I understand that Sara was on the boat, but that could've been done at another time and delivered in a different way. She didn't know where his mind could've been when she told him that. 

 

That's my same issue with her confrontation with Sara: she could've said something, but at the moment she sees her sister for the first time in years??? Laure's issue is that she holds onto angry and isn't appreciative for what she has.

http://leftenantscullbagg.tumblr.com/post/98036313327/im-a-woman-and-i-dont-like-laurel-lance-im-not

I friggin' love you @nanrad. Your response was perfect. 

 

And I actually agree with you. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Oliver wasn't living in the lap of luxury during his time 'away'. Laurel had reason to be upset with Oliver, but to say that she wished he rot in hell a lot longer than 5 years isn't something a good person, a fair person would say. Their first interaction already undermined who Laurel was supposed to be. I would've accepted Laurel saying "I wish it was Sara who came back" or something to that extent, but no, Oliver's return had nothing to do with Sara and everything to do with herself (or so that's what it seemed like to me). If I saw Laurel be even a little hurt or confused, I personally would've sympathized with her because being emotionally hurt > anger. 

[Nanrad]

I agree with FurryFury. Laurel's anger at Oliver made sense because he not only betrayed her, he got her sister killed (or so she believed). That's not something you just get over, no matter how long it's been.

Her reaction to Sara was a different story - that was just....wow. No.

We may still disagree on this, but I was more upset at her response to him and not her anger. I didn't have a problem with her admitted it, I had an issue with her saying it when they spoke (for the first time???). I think it was something that could've been admitted down the road, but not in the way she did it. So, even if we still disagree, my criticism wasn't the mere fact that she said it, but rather when. I think she is allowed to feel angry--it's understandable, I just disagree with the immediate reaction. 

[Chaser]

@Nanrad - Holy crap that was a read. Thanks for posting the link (also, Arya is totally my favorite Stark)

 

I think her reaction to Oliver was very warranted, but they should have put it at the back of the episode instead. It would have packed a lot more punch if she was emotional and more welcoming at the beginning of the episode. Then have her lose it on him at the end. I think it would have showed how conflicted she was about Oliver. It also would have showed how her first response was to love him even when he didn't deserve it.

[Nanrad]

I friggin' love you @nanrad. Your response was perfect. 

 

And I actually agree with you. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Oliver wasn't living in the lap of luxury during his time 'away'. Laurel had reason to be upset with Oliver, but to say that she wished he rot in hell a lot longer than 5 years isn't something a good person, a fair person would say. Their first interaction already undermined who Laurel was supposed to be. I would've accepted Laurel saying "I wish it was Sara who came back" or something to that extent, but no, Oliver's return had nothing to do with Sara and everything to do with herself (or so that's what it seemed like to me). If I saw Laurel be even a little hurt or confused, I personally would've sympathized with her because being emotionally hurt > anger. 

I had a feeling you would love it. lol

 

And, see, even though saying she wished Sara came back instead is almost the same thing, it's somehow both less and more harsh with more impact. It addresses the loss of her sister and the hand he indirectly played in her "death".

 

You're also right about some hurt doing that scene a ton of justice. All I see is anger--not hurt or confusion, which would driven home Laurel's grief...more then turning off the TV while others watched. Her anger did seem to be about herself and not the loss of her sister. It even seemed to really be about the cheating and not the loss of her sister. 

 

I just don't understand how they can get just about everything wrong with Laurel and write the other characters (event the females or recurring characters) better than Laurel. Part had to do with the actress, but I LOVED Moira. How do you love someone who kidnapped their husband, played a part in getting their first husband killed, paid to have her son tortured, emotionally abandoned her daughter for a while, etc MORE than a person who boyfriend and sister cheated with one another before dying in a boat crash--that's crazy to me. I loved Moira and don't even like Laurel. 

[Nanrad]

@Nanrad - Holy crap that was a read. Thanks for posting the link (also, Arya is totally my favorite Stark)

 

I think her reaction to Oliver was very warranted, but they should have put it at the back of the episode instead. It would have packed a lot more punch if she was emotional and more welcoming at the beginning of the episode. Then have her lose it on him at the end. I think it would have showed how conflicted she was about Oliver. It also would have showed how her first response was to love him even when he didn't deserve it.

Well, Wonderwall can tell you from my IMDb postings, when I post, I'm very thorough. But, as I discussed with others, Laurel's response was more about timing rather than her feeling that way, which I won't begrudge her. I just thought that whole thing was executed wrong. I could see her saying that in a heated conversation as she tried to deal with Oliver's Lazarus act. So, I agree with your scenario.

 

As you read, my issue with this posted stems from her feminist "defense" of Laurel without even giving reasons why Laurel's needed a feminist defense and calling people sexist/misogynists simply because they hated Laurel. Like, how is that the least bit rational. Then, she is completely dismissive of those with different opinions. I have no time for people like that--meaning I will shut them down with facts and dare them to challenge me. 

 

OTish, but people act this way when it comes to Arya and Sansa--it's annoying as well.

[wonderwall]

I just don't understand how they can get just about everything wrong with Laurel and write the other characters (event the females or recurring characters) better than Laurel. Part had to do with the actress, but I LOVED Moira. How do you love someone who kidnapped their husband, played a part in getting their first husband killed, paid to have her son tortured, emotionally abandoned her daughter for a while, etc MORE than a person who boyfriend and sister cheated with one another before dying in a boat crash--that's crazy to me. I loved Moira and don't even like Laurel. 

Heh you know me too well :p

 

I think it's because Moira was written with consistency. Moira was always written to be a woman who had a questionable morality and someone who's insanely fierce when it came to her family. And Susanna played her so perfectly, she played the role of Ice Queen with a sense of vulnerability perfectly. Whereas Laurel was never written consistently. Everything we were told about her was undermined by what she did on screen. Laurel was just an uninteresting person at one point and it doesn't help that KC doesn't have the impeccable acting skills as Susanna to help elevate her character as EBR/WH/SA/DR/PB have all done. KC could've shown vulnerability in the first few episodes, she could've helped the audience side with Laurel because what Oliver did was truly crappy, but unfortunately I believe KC is a one-note actress. :/ 

[statsgirl]

Another part that's wrong with Laurel is that everyone says what a wonderful person she is. No one said that about Moira, or Thea, and even Felicity had those who don't like her (hate in Isabel's case).  And no one is needed to hate Sara, she does that all by herself beating herself up for what she's done.

 

Cartoon-style villains may be all black (although even Malcolm had his justification and Slade had mirakuru) but no realistic character is all white, or even white with a brief addiction problem.  But no one on the show calls Laurel out when she's wrong until 2x14, and then Sara tells her how great she is.  A few episodes later Quentin says that she's such a good spy she could have been one if she hadn't wanted to be a lawyer.  No one has ever said that Felicity is so good undercover she could be a spy even though she's done a number of undercover missions by now, or to Diggle what an amazing back-up person he is.

 

Moira gets to be fiercely protective of her family and have questionable morality because people do call her out on the bad things she's done.

 

They need to call Laurel out too..

[looptab]

I agree with what some of you have said, Laurel is disliked because of a combination of bad writing and "strange" acting choices, and whenever they try to fix her and make her likable, it actually has the opposite effect. I mean, the episode where she gave relationship advices to Sara actually made me cringe. They were trying to show us how compassionate and loving she is, giving heartfelt speeches to her sister and ex even though they had betrayed her, but no-one can actually buy it; the things she said about/to Oliver: they may even be true, but there is no foundation to her saying them, so they come off as extremely fake. Or are we supposed to believe that when they were together as kids Oliver had already the tendency to think he was undeserving of love and that he had to keep people at arm's lenght? Because that's certainly not what I grasped from their flashbacks. They can't even be consistent to their own story, as far as she is concerned. I'm starting to dread the new season.

 

(Sorry for the mini-rant, but I just watched Suicide Squad and her scenes where so unbelievable I had to vent) :)

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

One of the things which bothered me about Laurel seeing Oliver for the first time and her response was Tommy was standing right there. Oliver's best friend, Tommy, who was overjoyed to see him. Laurel may have had a right to her anger, but she could have saved her response to a time when it was just her and Oliver. Instead once again it was all about how Laurel was feeling and what Laurel wanted. Instead Tommy stood witness to the reality the woman he cared for and his best friend would probably never be in the same room together. Oliver didn't know they were together, but Laurel did. Her response was all about her which is pretty much the only consistency going for her character.

 

I'd equate it to a friend marrying someone I think isn't good enough for them. I'd be happy because they are, but I'd have reservations. No need to rain on their parade. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[pootlus]

I disliked Laurel from the get-go, I binged-watched the first few episodes after a rec from a friend and pretty much my first comment to him was "That Laurel chick is terrible".

 

I'd have to go look up my TWoP posts to get the exact words I used there, but long before Olicity was even remotely a thing (and I didn't become a 'shipper until the Russian ep anyway) I was raging on both the acting and writing for Laurel.

 

Think my dislike crossed into hate in the finale when she was supposedly listening to her father saying goodbye and her face just didn't move.  Oh and then she ran into the Glades and got Tommy killed.  I wouldn't mind if this was supposed to make her unlikeable - there's nothing wrong with a character you love to hate!  It's the dichotomy between what we're supposed to feel and what I, for one, actually feel about her.  It's just the more they try and bludgeon me over the head with "she's soooo amazing" the more resentful I become when I just can't see it on screen.

 

Have no truck with criticism for any character deflected because "oh you must be a misogynist/homophobe/whatever". I'm about as card-carrying feminist as they come - it doesn't oblige me to like every female character.