S07.E18: Dirty Girls

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Faith back in Sunnydale, what could be wrong?

The Bad; What a shame this is the ep they get Nic Brendon to comment upon, with all the other great Xander centric eps he's been in. Again, Caleb doesn't finish them, he just lets them run?

Best line; Xander; "Everything has eyes" (Oh dear)

Women good/men bad; I don't think I've ever felt such visceral hatred for any villain as I do for woman-hating Caleb. I want to crush his skull in my bare hands. At least the nerds were funny and the Mayor charming and polite (for the most part).

Jeez!; Caleb torturing Shannon, Molly and Colleen killed, Xander maimed.

Kinky dinky; (I may just have to extend this subject now Faith's back) Nubile Potentials pillow fighting in their skimpy undies and suggesting threesomes (to my shame I didn't get the leg-cramp gag first time around). Faith puts the moves on Spike. Scott Hope. Angel, Riley, flirting with Giles and now Spike, the girl just can't help it, she's always stealing Buffy's boyfriends. Faith talks of dressing up as a horny cheerleader (Bring it on?), naughty nurse and sexy schoolgirl for her past lovers. Mayor Wilkins? Wesley? She's also quite OK with the sight of Spike's chains "Each to their own". Her phrasing is quite ambiguous "I used to run with this guy who liked me to dress up as a schoolgirl then take this bullwhip...". Now does she mean she whipped him or he whipped her? Or maybe they took turns? To judge by her later comments about 'looking up the guy with the bullwhip', having had enough all female company for a while, having been the toughest girl in a woman's prison for the last 3 years it seems inevitable that she was the one being whipped. Remember we've seen her self-harming a couple of times and the naughty schoolgirl is invariably the one being punished in S&M scenarios (probably be the strict schoolmistress if she was doing the whipping?). "If you can't beat them..." Spike comments that the schoolgirl thing is old hat which may be a subtle dig at Britney Spears and the outfit Buffy wears to seduce RJ in Him. One popular fan theory is that Faith is referring to Spanky who Angel meets in the frist ep of Angel Season 5 and who likes to spank women and certainly has a bullwhip. If you like the idea of Eliza Dushku with a whip check out the Youtube clips from the Dollhouse ep 'Spy in the house of love'.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to sit down. Faith seems pleasantly surprised that Buffy has had a wild affair with Spike, maybe not so stuffy after all?

Captain Subtext; Obvious tension between Dawn and Faith, one wonders if Dawn always resented this rival for Buffy's affections or loved her only to feel betrayed when she went evil? I think the latter. Faith notes of Dawn 'Brat's all woman sized'. Note when Xander and Kennedy are hurt it's Xander Willow goes to rather than her girlfriend. Xander's fantasy has the girls being with each other as well as him and loads of sapphic sex-play between them. Faith says she's "had her fill" of all female relationships in prison. The choir girl The First poses as for Caleb to stab is very reminiscent of Darla in 'Inside Out'. Buffy seems jealous that Faith has been inside Angel's mind which she wasn't able to do in Earshot. Andrew cries at Xander's speech. Spike still very anti-Angel, getting a soul didn't change that!

Guantanamo Bay; So, is Buffy's plan rash or sound? Hard to say, she's right that they just can't sit around waiting and now that they have Faith it might be the time to go on the offensive. I'm reminded of Dutch Cota on D-Day.  

Scoobies to the ER; Xander and Rhona very badly hurt

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy and Spike

Kills: 1 vamp for Faith plus her kills from her appearances on Angel. Faith: 19 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.

Recurring characters killed: 16, goodbye Molly. Also Colleen who was one of the girls from Xander's threesome fantasy.

Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara, Quentin Travers, Chloe, Molly, Jonathon.

Sunnydale deaths; Molly and Colleen 107

Total number of scoobies: 35 or so, there now seem to be about 20 Potentials plus Faith. However no Anya whatsoever and no one even comments upon it. No Vi either.

Notches on Scooby bedpost: I think we can safely add Bullwhip guy to Faith's total? Faith:3 ;Xander, Riley, Bullwhip guy

Buffy and Dawn more than sisters? In this case Dawn and Faith, you wonder could they have actually been the sisters if things had worked out differently?

Questions and observations; Spike says he reformed long before Faith did, no he didn't! He didn't truly reform until season 6 whilst she turned herself in by season 4. Caleb says that the Bringers DON'T serve Satan meaning the First isn't the Devil. But is he kidding himself? Amazed they let them use the Star Trek refs although I'd always thought Faith's dagger looked very Klingon. You feel sorry for Buffy losing her job, she obviously loved having something normal in her life. People are fleeing Sunnydale, a clear sign that this is the end for the town. Why not just shoot Caleb? I would suspect that the Potentials would be far too young to remember Falcon Crest.

Nic Bredon lists his favourite eps as OMWF, Hushed, The Body and Restless, all firm fan favourites Marks out of 10; 8/10

[Jack Shaftoe]

30 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I don't think I've ever felt such visceral hatred for any villain as I do for woman-hating Caleb.

And yet he is a small fry compared to Anya or Spike's, in terms of the number of victims. Personally I can't hate him because I can't take him seriously. He merely annoys me because Nathan Fillion annoys me for some reason. A lot. Every time I see him on screen I want to punch him in the face.

And oh, look, the First's minion allows Buffy to escape again for no reason whatsoever. There is your genius general and "mature" season.

Quote

You feel sorry for Buffy losing her job,

No, I don't. I feel sorry for the idiot scriptwriter who had her be shocked that Wood would dare fire her after what happened in the previous episode. Okay, maybe not sorry as much as pissed at.

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Nathan Fillion annoys me for some reason.

Nathan Fillion's credit annoyed me here.  Why the fuck are we breaking out "Special Guest Star" for a goddamn subvillain, exactly?  Heck, I'd even argue against using it for Eliza and ASH (David Boreanaz didn't get it when Angel guested in S4-S5; John Ritter didn't get it…), but certainly Giles and Faith are far more important to the show than the ex-"star" of Fireflop. 

(It's not as if a truckload of people watched Failedfly, after all, or it wouldn't have gotten cancelled to begin with.  Never mind so swiftly that NF and Gina Torres and Jewel Staite could get recurring roles on other Whedon-associated shows.)

Speaking of not watching, I was so dedicated to the FF button on my only viewing of this one (I saw the opening, the B/F scenes, and the Faith clip show, and that was pretty much it) that I zoomed past the eye-gauge in the battle, and only found out about it when I went online later.  l mean (unfortunately) I've seen it plenty of times in music vids since then, but not live.

I also missed the "ALL WOMEN MUST LUST SPIKE" scene with him and Faith, where he's pointlessly shirtless (of course) and apparently is quoting Fuffy's lines from Who Are You verbatim…is that true?  Geez, what lazy scriptwriting if so.  Which loser wrote this, again?  Goddard, right?  Him of the FIVE FUCKING SPUFFY SCENES in 7.09.  Still a talentless hack, then.  Sigh.

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I feel sorry for the idiot scriptwriter who had her be shocked that Wood would dare fire her after what happened in the previous episode.

What, threatening to murder your boss is bad for your standing at work?  Who knew?

Edited November 22, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You feel sorry for Buffy losing her job

Not in the slightest. I feel sorry for Xander losing his eye. In fact I'm quite pissed off with Robin for talking casually to Bitchy after everything that's happened in the previous ep and not telling her to get the hell out of his sight.

Btw, a mere observation:
"The Anointed will be my greatest weapon against the Slayer!" - Master in Never Kill a Boy on the First Date.

"You're my most powerful weapon, Will." - Buffy in Dirty Girls.

Who would have thought that one day Buffy Summers, the supposed champion of humanity, would be emulating something like the ol' Master? So that's it, Bitchy? That's how you see Willow these days? Your weapon? Item? Thing? Your property? This is how you treat your best friend?

Those words left me literally speechless the first time I heard them. Is it just me or does she talk like Willow is a freakin' object from now on? Honestly, why did it have to be poor Molly to meet her demise at the vineyard and not the bitch who seemingly lost the last remnants of humanity in her?? 

Edited November 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:32 PM, Halting Hex said:

Nathan Fillion's credit annoyed me here.  Why the fuck are we breaking out "Special Guest Star" for a goddamn subvillain, exactly?  Heck, I'd even argue against using it for Eliza and ASH (David Boreanaz didn't get it when Angel guested in S4-S5; John Ritter didn't get it…), but certainly Giles and Faith are far more important to the show than the ex-"star" of Fireflop. 

(It's not as if a truckload of people watched Failedfly, after all, or it wouldn't have gotten cancelled to begin with.  Never mind so swiftly that NF and Gina Torres and Jewel Staite could get recurring roles on other Whedon-associated shows.)

Speaking of not watching, I was so dedicated to the FF button on my only viewing of this one (I saw the opening, the B/F scenes, and the Faith clip show, and that was pretty much it) that I zoomed past the eye-gauge in the battle, and only found out about it when I went online later.  l mean (unfortunately) I've seen it plenty of times in music vids since then, but not live.

I also missed the "ALL WOMEN MUST LUST SPIKE" scene with him and Faith, where he's pointlessly shirtless (of course) and apparently is quoting Fuffy's lines from Who Are You verbatim…is that true?  Geez, what lazy scriptwriting if so.  Which loser wrote this, again?  Goddard, right?  Him of the FIVE FUCKING SPUFFY SCENES in 7.09.  Still a talentless hack, then.  Sigh.

What, threatening to murder your boss is bad for your standing at work?  Who knew?

What Whedon show was Jewel Staite in?

[lembergwatcher]

25 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

What Whedon show was Jewel Staite in?

Firefly.

[Joe Hellandback]

3 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Firefly.

I mean apart from that, the question was with Firefly over Joss put the stars in his other shows, Adam Baldwin in Angel etc Which was Jewel Staite in?

[Halting Hex]

After Firefly went extinct, Jewel got an arc on Wonderfalls, which wasn't technically a Whedon show, but was Tim Minear's post-Angel project and thus still in the extended family, I felt.

Of course, FOX gave Jaye and her friends at the novelty shop even less of a chance than they did the crew of the Serenity, so Jewel's episodes ended up unaired*.  But I still count her as part of the great Whedon Diaspora of '03.

*-some outlet, somewhere, did eventually air all 13 episodes, down the road.  (A&E?  I forget.  Maybe Bravo?  Whichever channel was trying to be "classy" back then.)  So I did get to see Jewel (playing the bartender's…wife? Ex? I forget.) after all, but long past the originally-planned date.

[lembergwatcher]

I have lots of bad things to say about Dirty Girls  

Spoiler

- just like about each and every subsequent ep.

But one thing does really infuriate me as a huge Xander fan. And that's total absence of any Xander/Faith scenes. Though both Xander and Faith clearly have certain issues to settle, it seems like our writing geniuses somehow decided that either The Zeppo or Consequences never happened or Xander is too insignificant to get the apology. Which is quite strange (and outrageous) considering the Buffyverse's obsession with all things redemption-related.

Instead the viewers are subjected to torture of watching one more pointless Spike-centric scene that, this time, includes the raven-haired slayer. What a sorry waste of precious screen time! What do Faith and Spike have in common (apart from sexual promiscuity) anyway? A brief encounter in season 4 when Faithie was "wearing" Buffy's face? 

Well, I understand they had a mission to always put Spike in the spotlight no matter what, but there are limits to everything, you know. Sometimes I just want to shove Joss' vamp darling's bleached head up the writers' collective ass.  

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, I understand they had a mission to always put Spike in the spotlight no matter what, but there are limits to everything, you know. Sometimes I just want to shove Joss' vamp darling's bleached head up the writers' collective ass.

To be "fair" (in the most narrow sense of the word), that scene wasn't just whim; Joss was trying to sell a Faith/Spike spinoff, as it had become clear that SMG wasn't returning, and no network executives were interested in Dawn the Vampire Slayer.

Now, as I've written, I deliberately chose to skip that scene, but it doesn't sound as if they made their best case for the spinoff, using the scene to mostly regurgitate dialogue from three seasons ago, and having the ridiculous "girrrrl, you are not talking to MY vampire!" moment when Buffy comes glaring into the room, which not only feeds into a triangular "conflict" that won't be part of the spinoff (as Buffy won't be there), but which makes Faith seem weak.

Waste of an opportunity, Xander-exclusion issues aside.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

a Faith/Spike spinoff

Yikes...

Actually, Joss could have gone even further and transformed Spikey into the world's first male vampire slayer (given that both SMG and ED told him to f#ck off eventually).

[lembergwatcher]

I've got another question regarding that episode. If Caleb masterminded the bombing of the WC headquarters, why couldn't he just do the same thing with the Potentials gathered at Casa Summers? He could have ended the war between Buffy and The First in favor of his "boss" in one fell swoop...

[Loandbehold]

17 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I've got another question regarding that episode. If Caleb masterminded the bombing of the WC headquarters, why couldn't he just do the same thing with the Potentials gathered at Casa Summers? He could have ended the war between Buffy and The First in favor of his "boss" in one fell swoop...

As with most tv and movie villains, Caleb doesn't want to be derivative and just repeat his prior plan, even if it worked so well.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:33 PM, Halting Hex said:

After Firefly went extinct, Jewel got an arc on Wonderfalls, which wasn't technically a Whedon show, but was Tim Minear's post-Angel project and thus still in the extended family, I felt.

Of course, FOX gave Jaye and her friends at the novelty shop even less of a chance than they did the crew of the Serenity, so Jewel's episodes ended up unaired*.  But I still count her as part of the great Whedon Diaspora of '03.

*-some outlet, somewhere, did eventually air all 13 episodes, down the road.  (A&E?  I forget.  Maybe Bravo?  Whichever channel was trying to be "classy" back then.)  So I did get to see Jewel (playing the bartender's…wife? Ex? I forget.) after all, but long past the originally-planned date.

If that's the case do we count Nic Brendon on Private Practice with Marti?  

On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:23 PM, Loandbehold said:

As with most tv and movie villains, Caleb doesn't want to be derivative and just repeat his prior plan, even if it worked so well.

Like Xena?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:42 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I have lots of bad things to say about Dirty Girls  

  Hide contents

- just like about each and every subsequent ep.

But one thing does really infuriate me as a huge Xander fan. And that's total absence of any Xander/Faith scenes. Though both Xander and Faith clearly have certain issues to settle, it seems like our writing geniuses somehow decided that either The Zeppo or Consequences never happened or Xander is too insignificant to get the apology. Which is quite strange (and outrageous) considering the Buffyverse's obsession with all things redemption-related.

Instead the viewers are subjected to torture of watching one more pointless Spike-centric scene that, this time, includes the raven-haired slayer. What a sorry waste of precious screen time! What do Faith and Spike have in common (apart from sexual promiscuity) anyway? A brief encounter in season 4 when Faithie was "wearing" Buffy's face? 

Well, I understand they had a mission to always put Spike in the spotlight no matter what, but there are limits to everything, you know. Sometimes I just want to shove Joss' vamp darling's bleached head up the writers' collective ass.  

Yes, I'd have liked some of that;

Xander struggles to fix his collar in the mirror

Faith; "Let me"

Xander looks nervous as she puts her hand near his neck

Faith; "Relax, not that girl any more"

Gives him a small kiss

"But I'll always be your number 1"

He looks surprised as she walks away but then notices Anya watching jealously and realises Faith could see her in the mirror the whole time.

Would have also liked a bit more Faith/Dawn.  

On ‎27‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:29 AM, Halting Hex said:

To be "fair" (in the most narrow sense of the word), that scene wasn't just whim; Joss was trying to sell a Faith/Spike spinoff, as it had become clear that SMG wasn't returning, and no network executives were interested in Dawn the Vampire Slayer.

Now, as I've written, I deliberately chose to skip that scene, but it doesn't sound as if they made their best case for the spinoff, using the scene to mostly regurgitate dialogue from three seasons ago, and having the ridiculous "girrrrl, you are not talking to MY vampire!" moment when Buffy comes glaring into the room, which not only feeds into a triangular "conflict" that won't be part of the spinoff (as Buffy won't be there), but which makes Faith seem weak.

Waste of an opportunity, Xander-exclusion issues aside.

It's a shame that the series ended just when Dawn was getting more popular but I prefer the Dawnster as just a girl without superpowers. 

On ‎27‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:00 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Yikes...

Actually, Joss could have gone even further and transformed Spikey into the world's first male vampire slayer (given that both SMG and ED told him to f#ck off eventually).

Well, ED did come back for Dollhouse? I'd like to have seen Faith on a Motorbike even if it only lasted a couple of seasons but I understand that ED wanted to do something fresh. But no ghost Spike sidekick, he's so much fun on Angel, we're just talking about Just Rewards on the Angel board and the interplay between him and Capt Forehead is epic! 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:33 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I've got another question regarding that episode. If Caleb masterminded the bombing of the WC headquarters, why couldn't he just do the same thing with the Potentials gathered at Casa Summers? He could have ended the war between Buffy and The First in favor of his "boss" in one fell swoop...

Doesn't want to kill Buffy, wants to end the line. Besides, I assume Willow provided magical safeguards. 

[Halting Hex]

6 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

If that's the case do we count Nic Brendon on Private Practice with Marti?  

I don't think so; that show wasn't on the air until 2007 and all of these were 2002-2003 hires, made by Joss/Tim immediately after Firefly went into dry dock.  Nick had already had a regular gig (the short-lived Kitchen Confidential) before he took this role.

Also, this is clearly a Shondaland show, not extended Whedon-Verse.  Ms. Rimes herself not only created this Grey's Anatomy spin-off and was the show-runner, but even served as cinematographer in S1.  And behind Shonda was her longtime aide, Betsy Beers.  Marti may have had an "Executive Producer" title, but that's more likely as a reward for her writing contributions; Private Practice wasn't "her show", the way that Point Pleasant was.

Re: Point Pleasant-Cameron Richardson was in Harper's Island with Christopher Gorham, so that's a BtVS score of 2.  But then, who hasn't been on TV with Gorham?

[lembergwatcher]

Dirty Girls is a kind of episode that leaves you baffled (in the worst sense of the word) from the very beginning. First, how does Caleb know for sure Shannon will survive all the blood loss and live to recount his message for Buffy? Or does he have another pair of eyes in the back of his head and therefore know Willow's car is right behind him? Maybe the wrong guy is called "the One who sees", after all? Second, is this some pure coincidence or sort of intervention from the Powers That Be that Willow and Faith happen to be "in the right place at the right time" - just when Caleb, this sorry excuse of a villain, decides to deliver his "message" in the rather violent way?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Shannon has survived the ordeal. But I'd be even more glad if Molly and Dianne stayed alive too, while Xander was left with both of his eyes. 

Dirty Girls together with some previous

Spoiler

and subsequent

episodes is yet another proof of how drastically the show's initial message has been turned upside down in the later seasons. The first seasons were all about teenage rebellion, defiance and questioning the authority. Remember The Harvest, Becoming, Part 2, Helpless and Checkpoint, both parts of Graduation Day or any episode with Wesley in it. Things have changed, however, once Buffy herself became an "authority figure".

While it was ok for Buffy to defy the Council, her own Watcher, her mother, the school administration or the government itself, it became a totally different thing since Buffy took over. What's even more astonishing is that many people still fail to see any obvious contradictions here and do not seem to realize the utter stupidity and total betrayal of the show's roots in the whole "General Buffy" concept.

This is like, you know, dissent is patriotic unless my candidate wins the office.  

[Halting Hex]

52 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Or does he have another pair of eyes in the back of his head and therefore know Willow's car is right behind him?

He's definitely aware of it, although the method of his knowledge is unknown:

Quote

CALEB: Now, if I'm not mistaken, there's a car a little ways behind us, and I do believe there's some folk in it goin' the same place you are.

I'd assume the First tipped him off.  It still seems awfully complicated to arrange for Shannon to be running from the Bringers, on foot, just far enough ahead of Willow and Faith that Caleb has time to slip between Shannon and W/F to "rescue" her, but it was definitely a plan, however contrived it might seem.

Which I suppose invalidates the critiques leveled at Buffy's battle plan at the Vineyard; if the First is capable of being so all-seeing, then it doesn't make much sense for Buffy to try anything more subtle than "we charge in, much in the style of John Wayne".  As poorly as that turned out for Molly, Dianne, and Xander, of course.

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

He's definitely aware of it, although the method of his knowledge is unknown

Which means my assumption about his second sight is not that far from the truth. Yes, The First might have tipped Caleb off regarding Willow's route or the Scoobs' intentions, still I don't think he knew Shannon's body so well to accurately predict the girl would survive to deliver the message.

Quote

FAITH
You sure she's one of us? She don't look like much now. Not a potential slayer, I mean.

WILLOW
Don't know. Seems to fit, though. We'll know more when she regains consciousness.

FAITH
(scoffs) If she regains consciousness. Girl's been gutted like a catfish.

 

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Which I suppose invalidates the critiques leveled at Buffy's battle plan at the Vineyard

Buffy might have been a military genius, no doubt about it (although I don't see her that way). It's the execution of her plan that turned out to be the great fiasco. Even though The First was gentle enough to let her and the other survivors go.

Like I said in another thread: Buffy + Spike (strongest fighter # 1) + Faith (strongest fighter # 2) = everybody wins. Buffy should've abandoned her "we are the army" bullshit, take only the strongest warriors and let Dianne, Molly, Kennedy, Rona, Amanda and Xander stay at Casa Summers, eat pizza and watch movies with the rest. It doesn't make any difference  whether her plan was brilliant and everyone else was wrong. The one who expects to take the credit for the achievements, has to be prepared taking the blame when the things don't work out.

And it's not so much about the validity of Buffy's plans. It's about new shiny "Buffy is the Great Leader! Everyone has to respect her authority! No one should question her decisions! Everybody should just say jawohl and obey!" paradigm the writers wanted to force down our throats.

Anyway, if The First is truly that all-seeing and all-powerful, why can't it destroy all the SiTs and the Scoobs in one fell swoop (i. e. lay explosives near Casa Summers), instead of chasing each and every Potential - like Shannon or that punk girl who resembled Franka Potente's character from Run Lola Run?

Edited December 17, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

And one more thing that kinda bothers me: did Buffy earn that much as a school counselor to feed dozens of mouths in the Amazon Kingdom of Casa Summers? Those SiTs had to eat at least three times a day, you know, while their numbers increased with each passing week. I mean, Anya's business was destroyed in the previous season while Xander's probably went bad due to upcoming Apocalypse. OTOH I do remember Anya robbed a bank in Him - so at least we have a clue where the money could have come from. 

Other questions: did the Slayer "army" have to share one bathroom or was Casa Summers in fact bigger than it seemed? Therefore, was Joyce's gallery so profitable for a single mother to afford the residence like that?

[Halting Hex]

The "only one bathroom" issue does seem to be a problem (Anya even berates Andrew for occupying it at the start of Storyteller, and we see that the various SiT at Xander's house are likewise taking a toll on his plumbing, in this episode), but as for the general "that's a lot of house" issues, remember that Sunnydale is a depressed housing market (due to all the supernatural activity and mysterious deaths and so on).  It may frustrate Buffy when she's trying to take out a mortgage in Flooded, but it's the reason Joyce was able to buy so cheaply in the first place.

"First vampires, now witches.  No wonder you can still afford a house in Sunnydale."  —Xander, Witch

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:24 PM, Halting Hex said:

I don't think so; that show wasn't on the air until 2007 and all of these were 2002-2003 hires, made by Joss/Tim immediately after Firefly went into dry dock.  Nick had already had a regular gig (the short-lived Kitchen Confidential) before he took this role.

Also, this is clearly a Shondaland show, not extended Whedon-Verse.  Ms. Rimes herself not only created this Grey's Anatomy spin-off and was the show-runner, but even served as cinematographer in S1.  And behind Shonda was her longtime aide, Betsy Beers.  Marti may have had an "Executive Producer" title, but that's more likely as a reward for her writing contributions; Private Practice wasn't "her show", the way that Point Pleasant was.

Re: Point Pleasant-Cameron Richardson was in Harper's Island with Christopher Gorham, so that's a BtVS score of 2.  But then, who hasn't been on TV with Gorham?

Beat you, Adam Busch was in Point Pleasant so in 1!

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:14 AM, lembergwatcher said:

And one more thing that kinda bothers me: did Buffy earn that much as a school counselor to feed dozens of mouths in the Amazon Kingdom of Casa Summers? Those SiTs had to eat at least three times a day, you know, while their numbers increased with each passing week. I mean, Anya's business was destroyed in the previous season while Xander's probably went bad due to upcoming Apocalypse. OTOH I do remember Anya robbed a bank in Him - so at least we have a clue where the money could have come from. 

Other questions: did the Slayer "army" have to share one bathroom or was Casa Summers in fact bigger than it seemed? Therefore, was Joyce's gallery so profitable for a single mother to afford the residence like that?

One assumes Giles chipped in as well, probably with funds from the Council. Plus Buffy's dad is quit rich and I assume he paid maintenance.  

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Beat you, Adam Busch was in Point Pleasant so in 1!

Oh, duh, of course!  I remember we were wondering if he had compromising pictures of Marti or something, because they gave him nothing to do in the scripts.

I mean, he worked up a little HoYay! with Grant Show, which is nice, but still.  (If you'd like to link to Firefly, via another show Marti wrote for, Sam Page was on Mad Men as Christina Hendricks's husband, no less.)

[Halting Hex]

On 11/21/2018 at 2:32 PM, Halting Hex said:

Nathan Fillion's credit annoyed me here.  Why the fuck are we breaking out "Special Guest Star" for a goddamn subvillain, exactly?  Heck, I'd even argue against using it for Eliza and ASH (David Boreanaz didn't get it when Angel guested in S4-S5; John Ritter didn't get it…)

And once again the "Being Wrong" award goes to Halting "I'm as Stupid as Xander Harris Looks" Hex.  John Ritter did in fact get a "special guest star" credit for Ted.  As well he should.

My bad.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

FAITH
(looks at Willow) Something's killing girls all over the world, trying to end the slayer line. Thing like that, figure I might get a heads up.

WILLOW
(drops her hands to her side, shakes her head) Faith...

FAITH
(throws up her hands) Guess it doesn't really matter as long as you got the true slayer intact.

WILLOW
You were in prison. Figured you were safe there.

FAITH
(scoffs) Yeah, that's prison. Safe as a kitten.

WILLOW
Sorry, I... don't know much about the big house. Was it— (Faith looks away) I mean, did something happen in there?

FAITH
(looks at Willow) Someone came at me with a nasty looking knife. Didn't really know why 'til now.

WILLOW
Oh, Faith, we didn't—

FAITH
Forget it. It's cool. I get by.

It seems like Drew Goddard didn't watch either Choices or This Year's Girl/Who Are You. Or he's more likely just another asshole who has zero respect for any character whose name isn't Spike or Buffy.

Instead of chastising Willow for not giving you a heads-up, you should crawl on your knees and beg Wicca's forgiveness for nearly killing her and her friends not so long ago, Faithie dear. You're reformed girl now, after all. But of course, we won't see anything like that. It's Willow who has to apologize to raven-haired Slayer. I always hated the way those writing assholes constantly humiliated Xander, but their more sophisticated approach in belittling Willow is plain sickening. It seems like Willow always has to apologize to all those who failed her and doesn't deserve her friendship.

I can't understand what exactly made Willow turn 180 degrees in regard to Faith. And I sure as hell can't understand Giles' reaction to her arrival (or lack thereof). We don't see Xander's response to Faith's presence either. Dawn objects but nobody gives a fuck. Instead almost seventeen precious seconds are wasted on Spike lamenting about unsuccesfull "murder" attempt... 

Why do you hate your own show so much, Joss?

[Halting Hex]

Hey, in Same Time, More Bullshit, Willow had to apologize to Buffy when it was Buffy who sealed Willow in a cave and nearly got her eaten alive.  

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

It seems like Willow always has to apologize to all those who failed her and doesn't deserve her friendship.

Oh, I'm sure we can find an exception or two.  But that only proves the rule, no?

(She did have a reason to apologize to Kennedy in Get it Done [sucking power from Kennedy without getting her consent], but you know Buffy would have done that without thinking twice.  Necessity of battle and all that.)

[lembergwatcher]

As much as I hate Dumb!Willow's "Willow is a loser" line in the previous season, such statement turns out to be not that far from the truth eventually. Yes, Willow finds another girlfriend (very hot girlfriend, I must say) and doesn't lose any body parts in the combat, which puts her in the "winners" category, right? Not so much, if you look closely. 

She gives up having a bright future far away from the Hellmouth, with college degree and promising work (those creepy guys wouldn't waste their time on just anybody in What's My Line, Part 1), in order to help Buffy fight the good fight only to become nothing more than a "very powerful witch" in the eyes of her supposed best friend.

Later she risks everything (her own life, first and foremost) to bring Buffy, her best friend, back from the dead. What she gets in return are ingratitude, rejection and resentment. She hits rock bottom while everyone she loves and cares for chose to pursue other interests or wallow in self-pity. Willow is the last one to find out about Spike (not from Buffy herself, mind you), after all. 

Willow goes back to Sunnyhell despite having zero reasons to do so (well, not absolutely zero, but Xander could have visited her in England time after time) only to be reduced to Buffy's "most powerful weapon" (God, how I hate that line and Buffy for saying this), i.e. become some sort of thing, an item or Buffy's toy. Her power, not who she really is, is all that matters from now on. Something tells me Willow's gift of magic, and not her human traits, was the root cause of Kennedy's falling for her either (though I may be wrong because I wasn't so much interested in their romance, after all).

Willow (and Xander) is what I find hardest to forgive Whedon and his team...

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Willow is the last one to find out about Spike (not from Buffy herself, mind you), after all. 

And we still don't know if she ever found out about the rape attempt.  (Or Giles or Anya, for that matter.)  People fault Xander for telling Dawn in Grave, but hey, at least somebody did.  (Actually, now that I think about it, I'm kind of pissed at Xander for keeping this "secret" from Willow, but that's OT for this episode.)

15 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Instead almost seventeen precious seconds are wasted on Spike lamenting about unsuccesfull "murder" attempt... 

Wow, that's 17 seconds of my life I didn't need to get back.  I literally have no idea what you're talking about here, since I've only watched this the once, and (as I've written) I was editing my viewing post-LJWTM.  I think the only Spike I saw for this episode was the idiotic "misunderstanding fight", where Faith falls for the old "helpless victim" trick (how long has Faith been a Slayer?  That's literally the oldest vampire trick in the book!) and "defends" the "girl" against Spike.  (And then the vampire, having gotten lucky enough to get away, comes back and attacks, one-against-three, for absolutely no reason and of course gets dusted in an instant.  Grr!)

I mean, I didn't even see Xander's "she's earned your trust" speech live, since Andrew was making an nuisance of himself so I was still leaning o the FF button, but I've educated myself after the fact.  But I honestly have no idea what Spike speechifying you're referring to…

…and no desire to educate myself about that, either.  (I know where to find a transcript.  I just don't care to do so.)  My sympathies to you.

[Halting Hex]

On 2/2/2019 at 8:21 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Willow goes back to Sunnyhell despite having zero reasons to do so (well, not absolutely zero, but Xander could have visited her in England time after time)

To be fair, although Xander's making enough jack to pay for his apartment (and possibly support Buffy and Dawn on the side), I don't know if he can afford multiple excursions to Merry Olde.  Not to mention the difficulties in getting sufficient time off of work.  

Far simpler to have the Council spring for a one-way ticket to whisk Willow homeward.  Although convenience shouldn't have been the only reason for her to return, obviously.  And I'd like something more in terms of story necessity than "Aly has a contract", I'd agree.

[lembergwatcher]

On 3/24/2019 at 8:58 PM, Halting Hex said:

To be fair, although Xander's making enough jack to pay for his apartment (and possibly support Buffy and Dawn on the side)

Somehow Xander made it into the Summers family. To quote Spike from Checkpoint, "That's a boatload of manly responsibility to come flying out of nowhere".

[Delphi]

I'm not saying that Faith doesn't need to apologize for her evil ways 5 years ago,  she should.   But the entire Scooby gang defintely owed Faith an apology.   The first evil was attempting genocide in the entire slayer line and none of them thought they should warn this girl? That's completely fucked up.   And to make matters worse,  they knew she was in danger,  they mentioned her,  but still decided not to. 

[lembergwatcher]

19 hours ago, Delphi said:

I'm not saying that Faith doesn't need to apologize for her evil ways 5 years ago,  she should.   But the entire Scooby gang defintely owed Faith an apology.   The first evil was attempting genocide in the entire slayer line and none of them thought they should warn this girl? That's completely fucked up.   And to make matters worse,  they knew she was in danger,  they mentioned her,  but still decided not to. 

Oh no. Not five years ago, but four: This Year's Girl/Who Are You took place in February 2000. What Faith did as Mayor's right hand was already very bad while her post-coma antics only made matters worse. Let us not forget that Faithie has already had her second chance after killing Finch and trying to murder Xander (she was allowed slaying etc), a chance she completely fucked up.

So if we walk in Scoobies' shoes and remember their last encounter with the raven haired Slayer (taking Joyce hostage, stealing Buffy's body, conspiring to kill Angel, torturing Wesley), I guess we can totally understand the gang's reluctance to bother about Faith's well-being. First, there were lots of other girls without blood on their hands to be worried about. Second, Faith's history of fighting on the bad side made her an ideal instrument for The First's manipulations. The gang probably thought she wasn't worth the risk.

As for Scoobs' apology, it should come only after Faith's apology and not vice versa.

[illdoc]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

conspiring to kill Angel, torturing Wesley

Technically, those were on that other series, so while Buffy may have known about Faith trying to kill Angel, she probably didn't know about Wes & may not have told the gang back in SunnyD about what Faith did in LA.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, illdoc said:

she probably didn't know about Wes

Wesley's with Buffy at the police station at the end of Sanctuary, and clearly worse for wear.  It's not hard to believe that either he or Angel told Buffy what happened to him, i.e. Faith.

And somebody told Buffy that Faith was in LA, in the first place.  (Did Angel call Giles?  I forget.) It's not impossible that Faith's little adventure with Wes and Cordelia was mentioned there, either.

[Halting Hex]

So, how did the First know that Faith was at Stockton, in order to send Deb and her big knife after her?  Windbag isn't omniscient, it only has the knowledge of the people whose form it takes.  And I don't think Warren or Glory or Adam or Drusilla or Spike or Cassie or Jonathan would have been keeping tabs on her. (Mayor Wilkins would have loved to know what happened to her, but of course he was Roasted Snake before Faith was incarcerated, so he wouldn't know.  This also lets the Master and Nikki Wood off of the hook.)

It's possible Caleb might have looked it up when he was busy blowing up the Watchers' Council building in Never Leave Me, Cheekbones!  But he was working against a deadline, I'd assume. And the Bringers would suck as research assistants, being blind and everything.

IMO, it looks as though it was a Summers who snitched on Faith.  But…which one?  Did Joyce make it a priority to know that Faith was safely locked up, so that she wouldn't pay any further surprise visits?  Or was Buffy dreaming her Fuffy dreams (and the "conjugal visits" that filled up many a fanfic) and so learned the way to the Central Vall-ay?

Thoughts?

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So, how did the First know that Faith was at Stockton, in order to send Deb and her big knife after her?  Windbag isn't omniscient, it only has the knowledge of the people whose form it takes.

When do they say it clearly (about the knowledge)? I mean, in what episode? Isn't it, you know, too lame for a supposed oldest and evilest of all evils to rely so much on the people whose form it takes?

Then again, as Major General Gordon Granger (one of the commanders in the Army of the Cumberland  during the Civil War) said after witnessing Union soldiers successfully attacking the enemy lines without proper orders during the Battle of Missionary Ridge: "When those fellows get started, all hell can't stop them." I guess, those Bringers guys weren't just cannon fodder for some idiotic and totally useless "operations" like, say, capturing Spike who could've been easily manipulated into coming anywhere the First wanted his skinny ass to be all by himself. Maybe "the boys" did some good detective work and thus managed to locate Buffy's little (slaying) sis. Either this or the First took the form of some (dead) judge who presided over Faith's process or someone in the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation...  

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

When do they say it clearly (about the knowledge)? I mean, in what episode?

I'm not sure there's a direct quote, but in Never Leave Me:

Quote

FIRST!JONATHAN:  I probably should have told somebody I'm anemic.

So the First implies that Jonathan's anemia is why he failed as a sacrifice, and that First!Warren didn't know Jonathan was anemic because Jonathan didn't tell Warren before Warren died.  But once Jonathan is dead, and the First takes his form, it knows all about the anemia that it was previously unaware of.  (There are probably other indications, too.)

Edited May 3, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/3/2020 at 9:10 PM, Halting Hex said:

So the First implies that Jonathan's anemia is why he failed as a sacrifice, and that First!Warren didn't know Jonathan was anemic

Well, at least Jonathan took care of his asthma - the one that prevented him from joining the SHS swim team back in the day (Go Fish!). I guess that's the reason he didn't mention it after 2x20.

[Halting Hex]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:14 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Oh no. Not five years ago, but four: This Year's Girl/Who Are You took place in February 2000

And this is 2003, so only three years later, in fact.

(I know, I need to cut back on the nitpicking, sorry.)