The Best and Worst of One Life to Live

[Dandesun]

I'm still ticked off that that got the kibosh and then they jettisoned Max. Max and Roxy combined with Max being mentor to Natalie in her pool game was finally getting Max back on my good side after JFP made him absolutely insufferable for way too long. (Complete separation from Blair also helped. I have hated Max/Blair from jump... long before she ever crossed paths with Todd.) Max and Blair were just the worst around each other so getting them away from each other was a good thing.

 

That being said, when Roxy was trying to figure out what Max liked and was going down his list of women she actually referred to Blair as "Lady Blair" as if she were this high society dame and it was hilarious because a) Blair never was and b) of course Roxy would think that. Roxy ended up doing this bizarre amalgam of all of Max' loves complete with accent a la Gabrielle and it was pretty awesome. That's what they should have continued with.

 

But alas... they did not.

[UYI]

 

I would have liked that scene more if it wasn't just a way to declare Max loved Luna and he didn't love Gabrielle that way, blah blah blah. #ragevomit 

 

It's possible he just shrugged Gabrielle off to get Roxy to leave him alone, but then again, Malone, who came back shortly after this, might have been consulting here before his name was placed back in the credits so...yeah, I can see him letting his bias slip through there.

 

That said, I DID love Roxy's line about Max having a thing for accents. Gabrielle and Luna were proof of that. :P

 

Speaking of Malone's 2003 return, this is from his first few days back. You won't be getting love scenes like this on a daytime soap anytime soon nowadays (part 3 specifically):

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2015 by UYI

[UYI]

OLTL wins its one and only Emmy for Outstanding Drama Series in 2002. I remember the night this aired. OLTL had just finished Live Week that afternoon, and as a result, many of the actors skipped the Emmys that year (including the DePaivas). Tonja and Fiona are there, though!

 

[TeeVee329]

Allow my new Kimberly Andrews avatar and I to be the first to wish you a happy Hos vs. Mos-versary! 

 

 

I can't believe it's been five years.

Edited January 20, 2015 by TeeVee329

[TeeVee329]

We've been talking about this a bunch in the GH thread today, so how about some The Best of Mitch Laurence and Dead Bodies!

 

At 3:14, here's Jessica stumbling across Corpse!Nash (scary!  hilarious!): 

 

 

And here's Mitch popping out of Jared's coffin:

 

 

ETA...notice that the extreme trauma of seeing her beloved husband's rotting corpse didn't cause Jessica to splinter into one of her DID alters.  Being sexually taken advantage of by Ford did.  Food for thought.

Edited January 24, 2015 by TeeVee329

[MSquared]

 

I think they were just fucking with us at that point. They had been trying to negotiate with Roger two years before, during the rapemance when Trevor St. John was front and center as Todd. He was apparently friendly and open, but he ended up re-upping with ATWT until it went off the air. But it begs the question of what they had intended to do if they'd gotten him then - would they have ended the rapemance with 'surprise, this dude is not Todd'? And then put TSJ with Susan Haskell and RH back with Blair/KDP? I have no idea. I do know Ron never let go of getting him back, obviously, which is why he teased it in 2010 as you said. When he wants something he'll keep hinting at it and never let it go. He did it at OLTL and he's done it many times on GH, he still does today.

 

No, they were probably going to go with Todd trying to save Marty from another guy who had raped her.  And reRonning the lead up to the Gold Balloons Wedding, where Blair would be hurt again.  Because, let's face it, Ron was trying to push the idea of Todd and Tea together after Victor died, until he went with Haters United to trap Todd in for the murder.  Even though I personally think the only chem RH and FL had were in hating and distrusting one another.

[jsbt]

I don't think he was going for that at the end of the show. I think it was always Todd, Blair and Tomas. I do think he was enamored of RH and FL's chemistry and wanted to use them together as much as possible - to the point that he sometimes gave Blair short shrift.

 

I think he'd wanted very much to keep TSJ and SH paired at some point, at least during the rapemance. Even after Victor/Todd was found out he kept playing the angle of their tortured romance for a number of weeks, which was wildly inappropriate. Once Téa was signed to a contract things changed.

Edited January 25, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

I also think it was clear, from the last month of the show, that Ron was thinking about John and Tea.  Weepy, widowed, pregnant Tea hit John right in his damsel-in-distress sweet spot.

[jsbt]

Oh, he was all up in that. I think that was his plan for when they were originally going to go online with him and Frank at the helm - John falls for pregnant Téa, and Victor returns to find his wife in another man's arms (just like Todd, Blair and Patrick). He didn't even give it up til the last two days of the show. And ME and FL had always had chemistry.

 

Most of that was written and shot believing they were heading online, I believe. They didn't get the rug pulled out til the very end of taping - Ilene Kristen was supposed to shoot stuff with Roxy going to New York to meet the heads of Prospect Park and Frank Valentini, all basically playing themselves, there to save Fraternity Row. She didn't find out til she got on-set that it was called off. They had to scramble to rewrite some things for the end, but I believe most of it went out on-air as originally planned for the transition to online.

Edited January 25, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

Oh, he was all up in that. I think that was his plan for when they were originally going to go online with him and Frank at the helm - John falls for pregnant Téa, and Victor returns to find his wife in another man's arms (just like Todd, Blair and Patrick). He didn't even give it up til the last two days of the show.

 

Yes, because we apparently couldn't send the show off without MORE scenes of Natalie (/Marty/Blair) looking pained while John was sniffing all over another woman, Tea (/Natalie/Marty).  

 

I do also remember there being rumors that Prospect Park envisioned John and Natalie as a married crimefighting duo.  Which again makes me thankful for the teeny bit of non-John Natalie (and Natalie/Cutter hotness) Prospect Park did end up providing.

[Melgaypet]

I do also remember there being rumors that Prospect Park envisioned John and Natalie as a married crimefighting duo.

 

Eeesh. Can you imagine? Natalie doing all the work as John takes all the credit, while occasionally scolding her for 'breaking the rules' or whatever the hell. No thanks. I was perfectly happy to have McBain off-screen on PP, with it being generally agreed that he was a jackass.

[UYI]

This NEVER gets old. I could watch this over and over.

 

[TeeVee329]

Oh man, I'd never seen that first clip of Tea taunting Marty that she was jealous of her because VicTodd used to be hers.  Tea more than deserved that wallop across the face.

 

I fall in Blair's camp more often than not, but I did think this moment (at 1:03) was some delicious bitchocity from Tea.

 

 

"Rise and shine, bitch."

Edited February 13, 2015 by TeeVee329

[kristabell]

Well, so long as we're on this theme, one of my personal favorites:

 

<video>

[UYI]

Gabrielle shoots Megan! At least, she tries to. I don't even know, you guys.

 

[UYI]

A Max Holden promo from 1987, posted just today. Talk about a great little birthday present for me today! Awesome. 

 

[UYI]

So much nostalgia for me attached to this theme. This was the theme when I began watching. Other than the 1984-1991 theme, this is absolutely the best theme song they ever had. And better yet, this is the rarely heard FULL version.

 

[TeeVee329]

Nora gets an eyeful of Clint in bed with Kim once...

 

 

...and once again...

 

 

Clutch those pearls, Nora!

 

Also, in the second clip, I really dig the moment where Kim sorta backs away from her seduction (whether on purpose or not, I'm not 100% sure) and Clint pulls her back to him and they have a hot kiss.  Damn, the chemistry between Jerry ver Dorn and Amanda Setton really was a surprise of the nicest kind.

[UYI]

Teddy Sears (Chad) came up over at the GH forum which reminded of the fact that he ALWAYS looked like he could be the long lost brother of Steve the Dell Guy ("Dude, you're getting a Dell!"). Those commercials were running at about the exact same time TS was on the show, and I remember some people online at the time noting the resemblance.

 

It was even funnier after the Dell Guy was busted for pot later on. 

[Melgaypet]

Oh, Chad. He was pretty hot. I remember him mostly as one of the guys Red!Dress!Blair made out with (in an alley?), and also working alongside Cristian at Break Bar. Y'all remember Break Bar, with the zebra-print furnishings and the homoeroticism?

[UYI]

Yep! RJ and Max owned it (and then Max took over Crossroads after Ben was shot). I loved their scenes together there. I would have loved some reunion/goodbye scenes for those two at the end of the ABC run. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by UYI

[Melgaypet]

UYI, you're our Max expert, did it strike you as weird that two of Max's closest (male) friends were RJ and Cord? I never thought of that until now, but it's kind of hilarious. I mean, those two guys could not be more different.

[TeeVee329]

I think RJ and Max were two of the most glaring omissions from the end of the show's ABC run. 

 

Ditto Kevin Buchanan.  It still bums me out that his last scene was listening to stupid Kelly whine about her out-of-nowhere feelings for Joey.

Edited March 31, 2015 by TeeVee329

[UYI]

Considering that RJ was once involved with letting Max believe his twins were dead? Oh yeah, definitely. Of course, he and Luna were also friends with Cain Rogan when he was first with Tina.

[Melgaypet]

I don't remember many details of the presumed-dead-twins story - I know RJ was involved, yes, but my recollection is that it went further than he ever intended. The kids were never supposed to be believed dead, or hurt, or in any real danger (not that kidnapping isn't awful on its own!) and when things spun out of control, he was genuinely horrified and remorseful. Wasn't he instrumental in getting them back?

 

I also vaguely remember Nora knowing something about the whole deal and fighting with Bo about it.

 

I guess it does kind of strain credulity that Max and RJ would be friends after that, but I loved their friendship. Max was no saint himself, after all, and when the show tried to make him into one, with Luna, it didn't really work. Of course, later on they went too far in making him a sleazy bastard, during the Skye/Max/Blair triangle, a period of time when I loathed Max and wanted him to die painfully.

 

Cord, on the other hand, was always a total White Hat. I loved him too. It just hit me funny that Max could be BFF's with both of them.

 

Sorry, I'm rambling. My point: Max and RJ were great characters and I liked them together. Here, I found a clip of them just hanging out, talking about stuff:

 

[TeeVee329]

Oh man, Max and RJ are talking about the RIDICULOUS story line where RJ's daughter Keri was carrying a baby for her mother, but didn't know that the baby was also Antonio's, but it turned out it was actually Keri and Antonio's baby (a.k.a. Jamie).

 

I liked Keri/Antonio and particularly Keri herself, but that whole nonsense ruined them and then, of course, Keri went crazy to prop Antonio's disgusting pairing with Jessica.

[Melgaypet]

Oh, I know, that whole storyline was stupid and gross. Malone did a lot of things wrong when he came back in 2003, but one thing he did right was to make Jamie Keri's child.

 

I got a weird thrill out of Bad!Keri (I think because Sherri Saum was clearly having a ball playing her) but that it was all over Antonio was annoying. And I HATED her death and how RJ was the only one who seemed to really care. Everyone else was too worried about poor, unjustly accused Antonio. Whatever. She should have gotten over his stupid ass and hooked up with Kevin or somebody.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Melgaypet

[UYI]

Cord and Max didn't always get along that well, either--there were times when they were in direct competition over Tina, and it was probably at their worst when Max had his gambling addiction and thought Cord and Luna were having an affair. 

 

That said, I kind of wish Cord and Max slept together here. The inappropriate chemistry here between JL and JDP is INSANE:

 

[Dandesun]

The Cord-Tina-Max-Gabrielle foursome is what hooked me onto OLTL back in the day and I loved it because the adventures were ridiculous, the hair was insane, and the relationships between the four were complicated yet somehow worked. I mean, Gabrielle and Tina became friends of a sort (as much as either of them could be) despite the fact that they were both involved with Max... Cord and Max were friends despite their involvement with Tina. We all know the 'I, Tina, take thee, Cord...' when she was marrying Max while Cord was his best man!

 

I remain somewhat torked about Gabrielle and Cord never having a thing... why not complete that square?

 

I really did like Luna when she came on. She was quite different from everyone else but, even with that, her relationship with Tina didn't have the same bite as the Tina/Gabs one. Luna was too good. I mean, of course she had to die... someone that good has to be sacrificed to the soap gods and turned into a fucking angel!

[UYI]

Cord & Gabrielle were teased in early 1990 when Max was presumed dead and Tina left for San Diego, but I guess he was more interested in Gabby's sister Debra, Gabby got Karen Witter's Tina to come back to Llanview, and that was that.

[Melgaypet]

Hey, it's kind of dead in here, huh? Anyway, is anyone else having a kind of crappy week? I am. To make me (us) feel better, here's a clip involving some very pretty people that I like a whole lot and still miss:

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Melgaypet

[TeeVee329]

Ah yes, as it was dubbed on TWoP, the Locker Room of Shoulder Rubs and Angst scenes...

[UYI]

Gabrielle can't decide if she's happy or sad, 1990:

 

 

I wish I could tell you what story this is from, but I honestly have no idea. I CAN tell you that, when Fiona returned in 2001 and was interviewed by SOD, that near the end of her run on the show, she was getting worn out from Gabrielle's crying all the time onscreen, and I think wound up in therapy for awhile because of it (of course, her divorce from her first husband/falling in love with her current husband John, who played Tony Vallone on the show, which was going on at the exact same time, probably had something to do with that, too). At the end of the interview, she said turned to JDP and that he owed her a congratulations. When he asked what for, she said that she had yet to end up in therapy again after returning to the show. He responded, "Give it time." 

 

I'm going to have to dig up that old SOD and find that interview again. I still have it somewhere.

Edited April 15, 2015 by UYI

[jsbt]

Before the show really began to go off the rails in the latter half of 2008, Jessica rips Natalie and Jared apart at Nash's funeral. Amazing scene, well-written and probably Bree Williamson's very best work on the show, IMO - and I was not her biggest fan:

 

 

Right afterwards, Tess came back and ruined it all.

[TeeVee329]

And then they made the same mistake after Jessica found out about Natalie and Brody.  Instead of letting the actual Jessica get angry, which was legitimately interesting and could be well played by Bree Williamson, they went with stupid Tess shenanigans instead.

[TeeVee329]

One of the best Natalie moments ever, holding Marty hostage with Asa's shotgun while pregnant and wearing a wedding dress/cowboy boots combo.

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by TeeVee329

[Melgaypet]

That was awesome. Awesome enough that I can mostly ignore that it was all for the love of Detective Emo McBroody.

[Mecca]

I just popped in here and saw the talk about Marty and Todd/Victor.  Thank goodness it turned out that Marty hadn't slept with the real Todd because I loved Todd/Victor and Marty together.  I remember always being afraid to post any positive comments about them because I would get comments about how twisted I was for liking a victim in a relationship with her rapist.  I want to post clips on youtube of these two, but I'm still afraid of the hate I might get. lol 

[Jalyn]

The problem is that Victor still thought that he was Todd at that point and had the memories of the rape meaning that that relationship wasn't really any less sick. I always thought that if they'd retcon some sort of existential break in Victor's psyche and the conditioning that caused him to try to fix a relationship with Marty. Throw in a reconditioning by mommy after the fact and it might have been palatable. 

[TeeVee329]

He used air quotes when referring to what he did, never forget!

 

http://serialdrama.typepad.com/serial_drama/2010/01/how-do-you-offend-me-let-me-count-the-ways.html

 

I dunno how Marty resisted the urge to beat him to death that day.

Edited August 26, 2015 by TeeVee329

[Dandesun]

I think all relationships involving Todd or Victor have a certain amount of fucked up to them but, ultimately, anything connecting Todd, Victor and Marty in a romantic way is the absolute highest level of fucked up. Malone had strange ideas there in the first place and it's pretty skin-crawling, really... but, to me, there are three truths:

 

1. Marty may always despise and be disgusted by Todd for what he did. She never has to forgive him. Ever.

2. Todd should always be sorry for his actions. They were deplorable. End of story.

3. Victor's just so beyond fucked up his brain might resemble gumbo.

 

I had to struggle with my fondness for the character of Todd due to the rape in the first place and it wasn't an easy struggle. I never liked Marty but he led a gang rape on her. She can hate him until the end of time and she has every right to do that. But they need to stay the hell away from each other because the 'connection' is gross. Being raped by someone doesn't manifest special insight into their soul. Marty wasn't the one that got away for Todd. He was a cesspool of a human being at that time and she was trying to be better but kept backsliding but they were not soulmates separated by 'one act of violence' (looking at you, Malone.)

 

As for Victor and Marty. Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, the Rapemance put a stake through Todd for me until Howarth's return. He was no longer a character I cared about in any way. Ever after Todd returned and was rightly horrified by what Victor had done in his name we still had Victor going 'Well, I thought that if she could love me than everything could be okay...'

 

Ugh again! I'm even happier that Todd treated that like the load of bullshit it was.

 

People like what they like, I get that. But the Todd/Marty or Victor/Marty stuff... no. That is not a train I'm getting on. Ever.

 

All that being said... like what you like, talk about what you like, post what you like. It's all fine. Either people will agree or they won't but it's all okay.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Dandesun

[Mecca]

To be honest I can't give a strong enough argument as to why their relationship wasn't sick and twisted because it's obvious that it was.   Everyone's thoughts posted against Todd and Marty are certainly valid and I would be horrified if this happened to anyone in real life.  I suppose what allows me to overlook their "ick" factor is I'm looking at it from the perspective of two actors with great chemistry (or what I perceive as great chemistry) interacting with each other.   I wanted to see more of that interaction.  In my mind their chemistry outweighed their abusive history together and I was willing to ignore or at least not dwell on what Todd had done.  I think it also helped that we were seveal years removed from the rape at that point and Todd was being played by a different actor. 

 

I think soap fans make allowances or just blatantly ignore history because of their affinity for an actor or a pairing all the time.  That's how Todd became such a well beloved character in the first place.  Viewers were willing to overlook Todd's past because they liked RH as an actor. 

 

Edited: Because apparently I can't spell "perceive" or "perspective" correctly...those damn "P" words.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Mecca

[Dandesun]

That's true, we all make allowances for what we like. I mean, Todd and Blair from the late 90s to 2003 was an absolute shitstorm and it's hard for me to watch a lot of that because Todd, in particular, was such a fucking dick -- and that's being kind. But whatever it was that Roger and Kassie had between them as screen-partners kept me hanging on. Although it was a blessed relief in a lot of ways when he left in early '03...

 

I think we all have those 'it's so wrong it's right' crack pairings that we love beyond all reasonable thought. Hey, there was a time I totally shipped the idea of Natalie with Flynn. It would have been seedy and dark and nasty but... compelling, I thought.

[jsbt]

I make allowances for many, many things on soaps, including many of the bad things Todd did, because he was one of my favorite characters. The rape was not one of those things. When the rapemance happened I wrote the character off, until it turned out that Todd was not Todd.

 

I do think TSJ, RH and SH all had incredible chemistry together. I understand why so many writers were fascinated by the third rail, and continued putting them in story together. For all I know, RC may have intended to bring Howarth back sooner, and gambled that he could pair TSJ's "not-Todd" with Marty in the aftermath. But for me that wouldn't have worked - it would always be tainted by her being raped a second time, even if it was by a man who was not in his right mind. Victor's culpability in the crime is somewhat mitigated now due to his brainwashing, and his character is viable again because of that retcon, but he still violated her without her informed consent, even as he had unknowingly been violated as well.

Edited August 26, 2015 by jsbt

[jsbt]

One of the best Natalie moments ever, holding Marty hostage with Asa's shotgun while pregnant and wearing a wedding dress/cowboy boots combo.

 

 

Natalie at her best, albeit over a man who was never, ever worth it. Looking back at this now, Natalie and John's reunion the year prior was so, so rushed just after Jared's death, and already she's thrown herself into this shit. But Melissa and Susan Haskell were perfect together, in part because Natalie and Marty were very much alike - really the same type of heroine, IMO. Which is probably why both characters are two of my top all-time favorites.

Edited August 26, 2015 by jsbt

[TeeVee329]

Natalie at her best, albeit over a man who was never, ever worth it. Looking back at this now, Natalie and John's reunion the year prior was so, so rushed just after Jared's death. 

 

SO rushed.  Melissa Archer was so fantastic playing Natalie's grief for Jared, but once the show flipped the switch, it was like, "Jared who?"  That's why I loved her launching herself at Mitch the week of the jail break when he started speaking ill of Jared and her being the one to finally kill him in his honor. 

[dubbel zout]

Victor's culpability in the crime is somewhat mitigated now due to his brainwashing, and his character is viable again because of that retcon, but he still violated her without her informed consent, even as he had unknowingly been violated as well.

 
I can't find any mitigation in the rapemance. Victor knew everyone, including himself, thought he was Todd. He knew Marty had been gang raped by Todd. He knew she didn't remember it. He knew she thought he was Todd. Not being part of the gang rape doesn't excuse his actions at all. He can't help that he didn't know he wasn't Todd, but he can help that he knowingly took gross and appalling advantage of an amnesiac rape victim.

 

Ugh. Typing all of that out makes me want to douse myself in bleach. I don't care what kind of chemistry the actors had; the rapemance story crossed a line. 

[jsbt]

The way I see it, Victor was mentally impaired or handicapped. But a mentally impaired or handicapped person can still rape or molest someone else. It may not be exactly the same as a deliberate and very sane serial rapist, which is what "Todd" appeared to be at the time, but it is still rape.

Edited August 27, 2015 by jsbt

[Melgaypet]

Natalie at her best, albeit over a man who was never, ever worth it. Looking back at this now, Natalie and John's reunion the year prior was so, so rushed just after Jared's death, and already she's thrown herself into this shit. But Melissa and Susan Haskell were perfect together, in part because Natalie and Marty were very much alike - really the same type of heroine, IMO. Which is probably why both characters are two of my top all-time favorites.

 

Male-centered triangles almost never work. They seem to inevitably lead to the guy being a passive, entitled, smug douche (which was often the default setting for a ABCDaytime leading man, anyway), while two women - almost always the more interesting and layered characters - did all the heavy lifting.

 

Interesting that you think Natalie and Marty were alike. I always thought Natalie and Blair were a lot alike, though that may be my bias, because Natalie and Blair were my girls, but Marty got on my damn nerves. I did love their rivalry, though even this Natalie fan thought it was too one-sided. I mean, there was no real rooting value for Marty in that whole thing - she was literally a raving lunatic. I just wish they had been fighting over anything else. Like, I don't know, Marty's terrible shrinking during the Teen!Jess mess.

 

ETA:  Re: Rapemance. Ew. Just ew, all around. I cannot fathom what Ron was thinking. And yes, Haskell and St. John had chemistry - so did Haskell and Howarth, but still, NO. Chemistry may cover a multitude of sins, but not all. I truly, truly wished while watching that storyline that it was leading to a Who Killed Todd? story, though I didn't think they'd have the balls to kill the character of Todd Manning off, though any other fallout would be cheap, IMO. And so it was. I was deeply relieved that Trevor St. John turned out not to be Todd after all. Which made his character interesting to me for the first time since the rapemance. So of course they killed him off then. I mean, they undid that, but such a weird choice. But I know backstage stuff was nuts at that time.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Melgaypet

[jsbt]

Oh, I always thought Natalie and Blair were quite alike, too, and I love Blair. But whereas Blair was more of a vixen in terms of how the show couched the character archetypes (at least superficially), Natalie and Marty IMO fit the same sort of gritty young heroine mold perfectly. They both straddled that line, they both acted from the heart and sometimes did terrible things because of that, they both brought out so much raw energy from their performers.

 

And yes, Susan did a great job but Marty's breakdown made virtually no sense. There was a brief attempt to tie it into her losing Cole and her unborn child, and I'm sure that was the root, but in the end everything about her character's total destruction was about John, John, John. And Susan was furious. The very hasty patch job they attempted to try and 'fix' her character right as she exited, and then later, was even worse. "Patrick will cure her!" After all the wacky rapes, that was one of the most irresponsible things RC ever did on OLTL. To this day, I blame Mad Marty on the same drugs that cartel gave to Clint on the online show. They both knew too much!

Edited August 27, 2015 by jsbt