The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[tv echo]

ScreenCrush's generally negative review of 422...

Review: ‘Arrow’ Gets ‘Lost in the Flood’ of Felicity’s Family, Drops Major Season 5 Clue
Kevin Fitzpatrick   May 18, 2016
http://screencrush.com/arrow-lost-in-the-flood-review/

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Last week’s Arrow quite literally dropped a major bomb, and if you thought such a grave event might set the tone for “Lost in the Flood” and beyond … you were pretty far off. Picking up where “Monument Point” left off, it made for a pretty powerful and ominous image to pick up with Oliver and Diggle awed by Darhk’s new supercharged magic, but rather than answer that immediate threat, Darhk goes the Bond route and vows to grant his enemies a more elaborate death later, before walking off. Essentially, to hang out in H.I.V.E. headquarters for the week. Maybe he read a magazine!

Minutes later, Curtis seemed to serve as harbinger of such a tonal shift; his lighter, non-diegetic musical cue a distinct clash with the mood moments before, as Felicity took in reports of the 10,000 strong death toll owing partly to her efforts last week. Noah makes a strong point, that Rubicon’s delay precipitates plenty further work to be done than wallowing in grief, but “Lost in the Flood” never really takes that message to heart. What should seem like urgent events end up repeatedly sidelined by the Felicity family reunion and its inherent bickering.
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On the one hand, it’s nice to have Felicity in focus without a questionable paralysis story or some despair over Oliver, but given the urgency of everything going on around them, I have no idea why Arrow thought its penultimate Season 4 hour the best time for minor revelations of Noah’s years-earlier exit, or the return of Felicity’s hacker ex-boyfriend nemesis. We’ve all seen TV and movies reaching some ridiculous heights of technobabble and visual panache to punch up computer drama, and there’s a certain pleasantry at work with Curtis, Felicity and her father all working in concert. Just not one that ever feels at home in Arrow (exploding consoles are best left to Star Trek, guys).

Clashing tones needn’t always be a bad thing, and on the other side, Oliver and Diggle’s daylight trek through Darhk’s suburban Ark proved reasonably striking. There’s certainly a visual metaphor at work in Oliver’s efforts no longer taking place in the shadow, and I liked the parallel of Oliver looking in on exactly the kind of life he’d shared with Felicity at the start of Season 4; a Darhk perversion of his own plan to begin anew. Still, “Lost in the Flood” never really found a clear enough focus in those scenes, to jump between finding Thea, to fighting Thea, to tabling rivalries in favor of Lonnie Machin’s anarchic endgame, and finally the stock escape from an exploding compound.
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If nothing else, killing off Ruve Darhk definitely put Damien into final showdown mode, while the ever shrug-worthy flashbacks seemed to drop yet another clue toward Russia, and potentially a Season 5 big bad in the name “Kovar,” just as Season 3 had name-dropped Darhk in the final episodes. Either way, those are some lacking stakes to enter the finale with;  perhaps a worldwide nuclear apocalypse simply reached too far.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

FanFest's very positive review of 422...

‘Arrow’ Recap ‘Lost in the Flood’
BY JULIA VALENTI  MAY 18, 2016
http://fanfest.com/2016/05/18/arrow-recap-lost-in-the-flood/

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If you haven’t watched the most recent episode of Arrow titled ‘Lost in the Flood’, you’re totally missing out. This episode was incredibly suspenseful and thrilling. If I haven’t talked all that much on how much I love Neal McDonough as Damien Darhk, I’m about to.
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For starters….wow. I have changed my mind, and this is officially now my new favorite episode this season. There was a constant stream of action, and if there was not some action, there was still a pretty good amount of fast-paced story-line. Did you guys catch that awesome spinning backflip that Oliver did when he was firing arrows at the G.H.O.S.T.S? I can’t wait for this episode to go on The CW website just so I can watch that part again.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

JoBlo's negative review of 422...

TV REVIEW: ARROW - SEASON 4 EPISODE 22 "LOST IN THE FLOOD"
6 hours ago by: Alex Maidy
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/tv-review-arrow---season-2-episode-22-408

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... The big finale of Arrow's fourth season comes next week which means this is the traditional penultimate episode that shares a title with a Bruce Springsteen song. This hour, called "Lost in the Flood", finally sees Damien Darhk's Genesis plan foiled and the end game for our heroes and villains set for next week. But, was there really anything substantial in this episode that hypes things up the way that the shocking ending of this weeks's The Flash? Unfortunately not unless you consider the partial destruction of Star City to be substantial. Instead we get a little more background on Felicity's father and the death of a few more characters. All in a day's work for Team Arrow.

... The underground city scenes are notably mostly because this may be the only time we have seen Green Arrow in full daylight.
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The biggest problem with this week's episode is summed up nicely by a line early in the episode from Quentin Lance when he says "the city is under attack? It must be May". It is a pretty funny meta-reference but one that sums up the formulaic issues this series has been plagued by for a couple of years now. What does help this episode out of the generic bad guy plot is that it doesn't go off without a hitch. Lonnie Machin, living up to his Anarky moniker, is just enough of a monkey wrench to throw Darhk's plan off course. In this case, the villain of the week model actually served to hinder the bad guy rather than the hero which sets up all sorts of bad news for the finale. You see, Machin's efforts end up being the cause of Genesis to fail and only decimate a small portion of Star City but at the same time results in the death of Ruve Darhk.
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Overall, this was a mediocre build-up to the finale. What should have set the stage for the big events to end the season instead came off as a bit of a limp effort. I was expecting the nuclear destruction caused by Felicity diverting a missile last week to have more of an emotional impact but it was brushed off pretty quickly at the start of this hour. It also felt like Damien Darhk's master plan was way too easily circumvented by our heroes after months of seemingly not having any way to combat the HIVE resources or their leader's superior magic. How, or if, any of the lingering subplots this season will tie into the finale remain to be seen. Will Noah have a part to play in stopping Damien Darhk? Will the flashbacks even matter or are they just filler time? Will Oliver and Felicity get back together? Do we even care? It is getting harder and harder to really care about this show when it doesn't even care itself. This season was billed as a partial reset for the series but has been feeling like more of the same. Hopefully the finale helps right that path.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Geeks of Doom's positive review of 422...

TV Review: Arrow 4.22 “Lost In The Flood”
Olympus Athens   |  @   |   Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 11:30 pm
http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/05/18/tv-review-arrow-4-22-lost-flood

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First I have to say – I’m sorry. I love Anarky. He’s so crazy and funny. I know he’s probably going to die soon (or… I’ll take a redemption story, Arrow Writers), but I really enjoy what he says, what he does, and his relationship with Thea. She was not too cut up about Alex anyway.

There was a flashback continuation story, and it was interesting at points, but the present-day is way more interesting. It’s probably because we have no real connection to any of those characters except Oliver, and we already have the more evolved version of him.

Good episode that tied a lot of pieces together, yet left it open for Darhk to pull something crazy. I really hope they tie in Lian Yu or I might be mad. I’m happy to see Oliver and Felicity getting closer, and I really like Arrow using more comedy in the forms of Donna and Curtis.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

411mania's mixed review of 422 (rated it Good)...

Arrow Review: 4.22 – ‘Lost in the Flood’
May 18, 2016 | Posted by Anthony Falco
http://411mania.com/movies/arrow-review-4-22-lost-in-the-flood/

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‘Lost in the Flood’ does two things right: it actually has some nice little character moments and also moves the story along more than I thought a penultimate episode would. Unfortunately, even the good stuff is bogged down by way too much plot – and I thought Monday’s Gotham had a lot going on. So it opens with probably the worst scene of the night: Arrow and Diggle firing at the overpowered Darhk. He turns the arrows and bullets into dust and then throws the vigilantes around: then he says the cliché bad guy line, “I’m going to keep you alive for now.” Who knows why he would: especially since the two directly mess up his plans a few scenes later.
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Again, there are aspects about tonight that I really enjoyed: some of the action, the reveal that the family went willingly and even some of the drama between Donna and Felicity. However, it is bogged down by the writers juggling way too many plots: even when they are onto something good, the episode decides to ramp up the speed instead of simply taking in the moment. I am interested in the finale, but am becoming indifferent to the series in general.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Yahoo TV's kinda funny review of 422...

‘Arrow’ Recap: Darhk Days Ahead
Robert Chan  May 19, 2016
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/arrow-recap-darhk-days-ahead-105927181.html

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The family that Oliver and Diggle hold hostage kind of have a point. At the beginning of the season, Oliver tried to come out of the shadows and offer Star City something other than night justice. Of course, he failed because this isn’t a show about a mayor implementing sound fiscal policies, no matter how great his abs are. But he’s always trying to offer the city hope — even if the only skills he has to offer are of the punchy-kicky variety. Damien Darhk offered the same thing — only on a much grander, more grotesque scale. The real villains here are the lazy-ass citizens of Star City who are waiting for someone to fix their town instead of doing it themselves. How about volunteering at a local library first before you go leaping right for the “nuke the planet” option?
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How frustrating must it be to have all the power garnered from tens of thousands of deaths in Havenrock, yet be unable to do anything but watch as lackeys try to hack Rubicon? Then to be away from Tevat Noah when someone kills your wife? The irony of his quest for power is he’s the most powerless person on the show now, which is probably something someone will say out loud next week in the finale.
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Noah Kuttler is not a good guy and, given his criminal history, Donna did right to send him away when Felicity was seven. But why is she doing it now? Being a protective mom is all well and good, but Felicity is way too old to be told she can’t see her father. Also, um… he’s wanted by the FBI. If you want him to go away, just call the cops. The emotional moments between Donna and Felicity were great, but the rest of it made no damn sense at all. It shouldn’t matter though, because the odds that Noah will sacrifice himself to save Felicity next week are close to 100 percent. 
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At the end of the flashback, will it turn out the idol has an off button that Oliver could have pressed at the beginning of the season to have prevented this whole thing?

If Tevat Noah could be destroyed by a single arrow, how could H.I.V.E. possibly have believed it would survive a nuclear holocaust?

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Robert Dougherty's mixed review of 422 (scored it 7 out of 10)...

Arrow S4: E22 – 'Lost in the Flood'
By Robert Dougherty May 19, 2016 08:36AM EDT
http://www.themovienetwork.com/review/arrow-s4-e22-lost-flood

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Arrow started the first part of its season finale trilogy with one giant mess of an episode. This didn't exactly raise high hopes for Part Two, and with a title like Lost in the Flood, it seems like an easy target waiting to happen. But as it turns out, this is one of those Arrow episodes that has a lot of great material despite a few rather annoying downsides, which is at least an improvement over last week and especially the penultimate episode of last season.
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Way back when in the second episode of the season, Quentin first gave Oliver the challenge of being a hero in the light without a mask or a gun. Yet in the second-to-last episode of the season, it is framed so that Damien has actually done more to bring hope to the masses than Oliver, at least among desperate people who see no way out in a darker world.

This is the kind of parallel and theme that Arrow really should have spent more time on this season, instead of wasting it on secret sons and breakups and other incredibly pointless plotlines. As interesting as the set up is now, and as much as it might lay the ground work for a real unparalleled action in the light from Oliver, it should have been laid more heavily long ago. Instead, it feels more like Arrow getting to a good destination despite barely bothering to do the real, honest legwork to get there, much like how last season ended.
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While the barbs obviously fly between Charlotte Ross and Tom Amandes, it ranges from humorous to cringy. The cringy parts come when Donna concludes Felicity is pregnant before she drops the "I work for the Green Arrow" bomb on her, and when Donna slips out that Felicity and Noah are more alike than she thought when she learns the truth. But since there's not even any time for Felicity to mourn that thousands died because she saved Monument Point, there's no time for deeper reflection on these points while Felicity, Noah and Curtis go to work.
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This helps inspire Donna to take Noah aside and convince him to leave once again, for Felicity's own good. Unfortunately, the notion of this being a big moment for fierce Mother Smoak is undercut by one glaring flaw, in that people are deciding what's best for Felicity without consulting her yet again. The show just continues to beat that rotting corpse of a dead horse over and over, without any sense of awareness or irony, even when it isn't Oliver doing it.

Yet those problems pale in comparison to Felicity and Curtis's final talk, in which Curtis finds out more about Noah and Donna and draws a very troubling parallel. It is troubling in the fact that it is designed to make Felicity believe she unfairly jumped the gun on breaking things off with Oliver, and not just because of the questionable comparison to Noah and Donna.

In this one scene, Arrow validates all the misguided and just plain wrong fans who have put most of the Olicity breakup blame on Felicity. In this one scene, Arrow shows its truly oblivious priorities, and shows perhaps the most offensive path towards Olicity getting back together in the season finale after all.
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And sadly, I must yell in caps that with one episode to go, Oliver has not done ONE SINGLE THING IN THE SLIGHTEST to confront, challenge and change that specific problem, and to let her in when he would normally close off. NOT ONE SINGLE THING.

Yet it appears things are laid in motion for Felicity to take the first step forward towards a reunion, before he does ONE SINGLE THING to prove that he can let her in completely and utterly at all times. And that is a vomit inducing, jump the shark worthy way of getting Olicity back together if there ever was one.

It would have been okay for Felicity to admit her own abandonment issues, and her willingness to jump the gun, played a part in the breakup. It honestly would have. However, the main thing Arrow does not seem willing to understand is that it would have been acceptable only AFTER Oliver begins to make a real, obvious, truthful effort to change everything he really did to make the breakup happen, and fight all the impulses and demons that made him lie and make him continue to shut Felicity out when it counts.
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Sadly, the fact that this would validate the most sexist and misguided anti-Felicity fans out there is only one loathsome thing about that possibility.
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This is one of the most action packed episodes of the season, does much more to build things up for a grand finale than last week did, and doesn't leave a complete feeling of despair and agony leading to the finale like last year's 22'nd episode did. This should have been an episode completely worth celebrating for Thea reclaiming himself, Oliver taking another step towards hope, an Ark collapsing, Damien going to the ultimate depths, a much needed win for Felicity and for a promo that suggests the most epic battle for Star City is still to come.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

JustAboutWrite's mixed review of 422 (very lengthy article)...

Arrow 4x22 Review: "Lost in the Flood" (Headfirst Into a Hurricane)
Just About Write   May 18, 2016
http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2016/05/arrow-4x22-review-lost-in-flood.html

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I love Team Smoak in this episode. And honestly, I'm really glad we got some insight into the fact that Donna left Noah, not the other way around. It makes a lot of sense, given what we know to be true of her character. What I will say as a criticism though, and this comes from the show shoehorning cast members in, is that Felicity's whole response to her father and her excitedly telling Curtis that Donna left him, not the other way around, feels out of place. And I think it's just because some of the strongest memories I have of Felicity from the early days are where she talks about her father's abandonment. That's not just something a person gets over in thirty minutes. Honestly, Felicity should be a little mad at her mom for what she did. She should be mad, then compassionate, and then forgive her mom after realizing that her strength was walking away.

(Psssssst, Curtis? That is where the comparisons should be, please and thank you.)

But instead, Arrow has left Felicity's story kind of dangling in open waters here. There is simply not enough time in the penultimate episode to flesh out this family drama with the kind of arc it actually deserves. Furthermore, I'm actually really kind of baffled that the show had Curtis tell Felicity that there are parallels between her and Oliver and Noah/Donna. In the words of Community's Dean Pelton: "That... was an odd dot to connect." I really don't know if the show should be comparing the romance they (until this season) had constructed to be on the fast-track to healthy with the relationship between a pathological, lying criminal and a woman who left because she was afraid to see her marriage end in disaster.

Curtis is onto something, though: Donna and Felicity are alike in their strength. Both women were strong enough to walk away from situations they knew could only end in unhealthy disaster. I still hold firm to the idea that Oliver and Felicity should spend more time apart, and it looks like I may be getting my wish. If they part ways in the season finale for whatever reason — whether Felicity leaves Star(ling) City for a while or something else — I will be glad. Those two need some time to continue growing and exploring apart from one another before they're ready to be in a healthy, functional, long-lasting marriage. If they jump back in now, the only reason will be because the lives they live make them fearful that they'll lose one another. Fear is not a great way to rekindle a relationship, especially one that is already familiar and comfortable. Oliver needs to find his hope within himself. He needs to be his own beacon of hope for once. He can't keep relying on Felicity to always be there. That's just not healthy.

And Felicity needs to presumably deal with her own stuff (although apart from a brief moment where she watched the news, apparently she's now totally fine after sending a nuke to a town where tens of thousands of people died, because Arrow can't properly pace its stories), away from Oliver. She was the one who wanted to return to the city, and I think it would make for some fitting book-ending writing if she was the one to realize she needs to leave it again for a while.

I'm still an Olicity fan, but examining the damage that the show did to the pairing this year means acknowledging the fact that those two aren't healthy together — yet. I know the show will bring them back together in time (or I could be wrong and they'll be together next week in the finale), and I feel like that's exactly what we all need: time.
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As Arrow heads into the season finale, I'm filled with less rage and more apathy than I was last year. Apathy, unfortunately, is often more dangerous than rage. Because while "Lost in the Flood" didn't make me feel angry, it left me with the inability to feel much at all regarding the fate of our characters or the city. And that might actually be worse.
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Charlotte Ross, Echo Kellum, Tom Amandes, and Emily Bett Rickards win for Best B-Story in a While. The chemistry between all of them was great (even if I did think that Curtis could tone it down a few notches; even Felicity — at her most overeager — isn't THAT babbly).

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[Guest]

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Yet those problems pale in comparison to Felicity and Curtis's final talk, in which Curtis finds out more about Noah and Donna and draws a very troubling parallel. It is troubling in the fact that it is designed to make Felicity believe she unfairly jumped the gun on breaking things off with Oliver, and not just because of the questionable comparison to Noah and Donna.

In this one scene, Arrow validates all the misguided and just plain wrong fans who have put most of the Olicity breakup blame on Felicity. In this one scene, Arrow shows its truly oblivious priorities, and shows perhaps the most offensive path towards Olicity getting back together in the season finale after all.

And sadly, I must yell in caps that with one episode to go, Oliver has not done ONE SINGLE THING IN THE SLIGHTEST to confront, challenge and change that specific problem, and to let her in when he would normally close off. NOT ONE SINGLE THING.

I don't always agree with this guy's reviews and think he goes a bit OTT most of the time but this is pretty much my issue with the Felicity/Noah and Oliver/William parallel. Felicity will be the one who has to change while Oliver hasn't really done anything differently. Of course I'm not sure how he could prove he's changed but they could have at least tried to show something. This is where being faced with a situation where he was forced to lie again and deciding to tell Felicity the truth would have been better. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Guest

[tv echo]

Two Examiner reviews of 422...

'Arrow' 4x22 'Lost in the Flood' Review: Hope in the Darhkness
Allison Nichols   May 18, 2016
http://www.examiner.com/review/arrow-4x22-lost-the-flood-review-hope-the-darhkness

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We should all be begging for the finale. Instead, this hour wrapped up the genesis storyline, and now the question is how crazy will Darhk go. Darhk was already a bit unhinged, so it’s not like this is anything new, and it’s not thrilling either. The most exciting part, personally, was getting a better look at all the really pretty landscaping in the Genesis neighborhood.
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The brainwashing was not entertaining. It was a stall tactic designed to keep Oliver and Diggle in the idyllic neighborhood a bit longer before letting Lonnie blow the place up. There wasn’t anything exciting about watching Thea and Oliver battle. The only, tiny bright side was that Thea showed she is strong enough to beat brainwashing.
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The return of Cooper, Felicity’s ex-boyfriend, was uneventful. Sure, he got to work in some Shakespeare quotes that came out of nowhere, but other than that, he didn’t do all that much. Admittedly, Darhk needed a hacker to try to get Rubicon back, and Cooper’s a step above some unknown hacker. Did you enjoy Cooper’s return?

One part of the hour that was enjoyable was Oliver realizing that Darhk is doing something right. He’s gotten people to believe in him. The random people whose house Diggle and Oliver commandeered were a great way to show that.
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Oliver has been trying to save his city for years now, and while talking to those people, you can tell that he realized that he hasn’t succeeded yet. Oliver hasn’t instilled hope in the people of Star City as the Arrow or as the Green Arrow. It’s great that this bothers him because it will get him thinking about how he can do his job better.

'Arrow' recap: Misplaced hope and a family secret
Meredith Jacobs May 18, 2016
http://www.examiner.com/article/arrow-recap-misplaced-hope-and-a-family-secret

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Could Felicity forgiving her mother as easily as she does come into play for her future with Oliver? Combined with recent episodes and Curtis pointing out the similarities in the two relationships – the criminal you don't think can change, the slightly overactive but understandable breakup – it seems that all signs are pointing to yes.
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As Oliver and Diggle learn from the people in the house they're crashing in, not everyone there is under the influence of the yellow pills. Some people actually believe in Darhk's message, that he has given them hope, that the world is evil and beyond saving. Any promise to save the city has fallen short. (Given what's happened in Starling/Star City the past four years, who can blame them? Although, perhaps moving out of the city is a better idea than deciding that Genesis is the way to go.) It is, basically, the perfect time for Oliver to step up – as Oliver Queen and/or the Green Arrow – and be that hope for Star City.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I don't always agree with this guy's reviews and think he goes a bit OTT most of the time but this is pretty much my issue with the Felicity/Noah and Oliver/William parallel. Felicity will be the one who has to change while Oliver hasn't really done anything differently. Of course I'm not sure how he could prove he's changed but they could have at least tried to show something. This is where being faced with a situation where he was forced to lie again and deciding to tell Felicity the truth would have been better. 

Yeah, I really would've liked to have seen him demonstrate a change in behavior, but at the same time it's always going to be a leap of faith for Felicity, since just because he doesn't lie once doesn't mean he won't again. I think her believing that he can change is enough to at least get them moving in the right direction, and hopefully seeing what his life is like without her is enough for Oliver to not ever risk their relationship again.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, for me I'm not too upset with however they go getting them back together, because she dumped him. Like really dumped him. I don't mean that I enjoy his pain, but that the fact that he EXPERIENCED that pain will, I think, make him unwilling ever to undergo it again. That's one of the reasons I'm glad she left the team, too. He understands now what it's like not to have her in his life at all, and I think that's what will keep him from doing that again. (Plus out-of-show I THINK they know they can't pull that crap again.) They'll probably be split up again but it'll be amnesia or kidnapping or something from the outside.

I think overall I'm with one of the reviewers above: looking forward to the finale, but kind of over the show. I still like a lot of the characters, and I think the stunts are really improving, but it's just become so totally absurd and unrealistic, not just the magic crap, but more importantly to me, all the emotional stuff. Almost no emotional reaction rings true anymore. Felicity's making jokes three minutes after being forced to nuke a town. Donna's doing whatever all that was. Curtis is apparently drawing some really bizarre parallels and also making jokes three minutes after a town was nuked. Oliver's stupidly leaving his only defense against nuclear Armageddon 100% unprotected and somehow thinking these evil assholes who are cool with nuking the world are people to sympathize with. I was on Digg's side in that crap...kill 'em all. And I kind of want to kiss Anarky. Thea is unbelievably stupid and incompetent. I mean the plots have sucked for awhile now, so it was the characters keeping me interested, and now they're quickly becoming unrecognizable as human beings.

[tv echo]

What I've quoted is not spoilery - this article is really just a summary of comments made at COH2 (though interesting that they're compiled into an article focused on OTA)...

Arrow spoilers: Stephen Amell, David Ramsey and Emily Bett Rickards share wish list for season five
18 MAY 2016  BY JO-ANNE ROWNEY
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/arrow-spoilers-stephen-amell-david-8000641

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When asked what they would like to see happen to each of their characters, Original Team Arrow (known to fans as OTA) dished the dirt.

Stephen Amell called for more street fighting, Emily Bett Rickards wants Felcity flashbacks and David Ramsey a new helmet - but then we all want that.

Speaking to fans, Amell said he'd like to see a return to season one and two style stunts.
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Rickards, who plays IT hacker Felicity Smoak, said she'd like Felicity flashbacks and "healthy Olicity" - the shipper term for her and Oliver Queen's relationship.

She expanded on her wish for more flashbacks saying she'd like to see a younger Felicity and explore the relationship with Donna Smoak ( Charlotte Ross ) and her father Noah.
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Speaking about how Felicity will develop she said: "I want felicity to continue to be true to herself. [Felicity] was growing up but [she's] got to a point where [she] can acknowledge it."
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David Ramsey aka Diggle, called for more Original Team Arrow, more Diggle and Felicity interaction and a new helmet.
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Ramsey had joked Felicity could do something to his helmet "to make him smarter" when fans quizzed him on his Spartan outfit.

Edited May 19, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, I really would've liked to have seen him demonstrate a change in behavior, but at the same time it's always going to be a leap of faith for Felicity, since just because he doesn't lie once doesn't mean he won't again. I think her believing that he can change is enough to at least get them moving in the right direction, and hopefully seeing what his life is like without her is enough for Oliver to not ever risk their relationship again.

Yeah, ultimately I think that's the parallel they were drawing. That Felicity, because of her own history, is inclined to believe that people won't change. And what they want to say is that, yes, Oliver can change. She justneeds to be willing  to see it. 

[kismet]

12 hours ago, looptab said:

Tv.com's review:

Routine was a really good way to describe that episode. Not bad or good, just routine. It was a transitional episode at best. After the last two being so exciting, this one just felt routine. The stunts were nice and very enjoyable to see in the daylight. But the story was routine, nothing too exciting about it that I will remember later from a character or story stand point. Just some stand-out gifs and a few one-liners.

[wonderwall]

@tv echo can I just thank you for posting all of the articles on this thread again? And thank you for filtering the garbage out like Erik Kain's reviews on Forbes which literally makes me lose brain cells whilst reading them. Seriously, anyone who thinks he or anyone equivalent to him is a 'reputable' source to use in arguments is rather sad. So yeah. Thank you :)

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

And thank you for filtering the garbage out like Erik Kain's reviews on Forbes which literally makes me lose brain cells whilst reading them. Seriously, anyone who thinks he or anyone equivalent to him is a 'reputable' source to use in arguments is rather sad. So yeah. Thank you :)

This. The delusion is strong with that guy. I'm happy not to read his garbage. Plus he changes his mind all the time. He hated Laurel for years and then started hating on Felicity. Textbook misogynist if you ask me. 

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

 

I think overall I'm with one of the reviewers above: looking forward to the finale, but kind of over the show. I still like a lot of the characters, and I think the stunts are really improving, but it's just become so totally absurd and unrealistic, not just the magic crap, but more importantly to me, all the emotional stuff. Almost no emotional reaction rings true anymore. Felicity's making jokes three minutes after being forced to nuke a town. Donna's doing whatever all that was. Curtis is apparently drawing some really bizarre parallels and also making jokes three minutes after a town was nuked. [snip] I mean the plots have sucked for awhile now, so it was the characters keeping me interested, and now they're quickly becoming unrecognizable as human beings.

We know when these episodes are being written that two back to back like this pretty much happen at the same time and I have to think that this what often causes tonal problems that in this case forced a tacked on scene in the front of the episode but never really addressed the small but really important emotional beat in the previous episode. 

I remember an episode of Veronica Mars that ended with a confrontation between Keith and Veronica (the father and daughter) about how she'd broke his trust and it was hugely emotional and felt like it would completely change their relationship at least for a while but come the next episode, there wasn't any mention or noticeable affect.  The show runner confessed they didn't realize how powerful that scene would be when it was filmed and that there was no time to change the next episode to make it fit.

There's no way that the writers writing 4-22 wouldn't have known about the bomb going off but as someone pointed out, none of the other characters were expected to have an emotional follow up to Havenrock's decimation (and it didn't feel out of place for them not to have it) and if they hadn't filmed that one moment that showed us how deeply Felicity was affected, perhaps we would have an easier time believing she could distance herself from what happened so quickly.  Perhaps who ever wrote it expected a reaction from Felicity that was more in keeping with how Lyla reacted.  To quickly accept they weren't at fault and concentrate on how many lives they saved.  Except EBR and the director made one short line a huge freaking character moment (as it IMO should have been)

But I don't think that translated when it was just on paper, at least not in time to greatly influence the team writing 4-22.  Kind of reminds me of Palmer Island, like it's all kept too separate.  Maybe it's a director problem, that the director on 4-22 had sat with his script a couple weeks and come up with how he was envisioning the episode before 4-21 ever got to that pivotal scene that should have changed every acting choice made in the loft. 

Felicity pushing it to the side is fine but it happened too fast and there should have been cracks in her façade. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

Los Angeles Times' mixed but overall positive review of 422...

The villain finally gets a reason to do villain things in Arrow's 'Lost in the Flood'
James Queally   May 19, 2016
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-arrow-lost-in-the-flood-recap-20160519-snap-story.html

Quote

In a vacuum, I enjoyed this episode. But the fact that the show waited until after Darhk's master plan was foiled to give him proper motivation to even carry out that master plan is a dizzying piece of narrative disconnect that I can't ignore. Pair that with the fact that the killing of a wife is what sent Merlyn off to do the exact same thing in Season 1, and you've got deja vu.
*  *  *
Darhk is a good villain. McDonough is a great character actor. But this character simply hasn't fit in the Arrow-verse. Beyond the motivation problems, the bad guy is simply too powerful a foe for Oliver Queen. The show hasn't figured out a way to balance magical realism against its kung-fu norms. We've seen Darhk play with his food (Oliver) far too many times, opting not to kill Oliver or Diggle or any other member of Team Arrow because ... reasons? I'm starting to wonder if he only killed Laurel because he shared some of my past opinions about the character.

But like I said last week, to enjoy "Arrow" these days is to divorce yourself from the various design flaws in its main plot. When you do that, there's a lot to like about "Lost in the Flood."

Everything about the Smoak family drama works, with Donna's discomfort at watching her ex-husband and daughter bond as they try to save the worlds spliced between Felicity's struggle to both protect herself and enjoy the brief flashes of paternal pride she's been robbed of nearly her whole life. The reveal that Donna absconded with Felicity at a young age gives Momma Smoak more agency than we've seen in a while, and leaves just the slightest room to make the Calculator forgivable in the future, should the show choose to go that route. Previous problems with the Rubicon plot aside, it has allowed the series to delve into the Smoak family history and gave Curtis something to do this week, and the quickest way to my heart is more Curtis.

The subterranean fisticuffs among Anarky, Merlyn, Oliver, Thea and Diggle also worked nicely, something of a return to form for the show's action sequences in a year overpopulated by Darhk force choking people.

Lonnie Machin has been a welcome addition to "Arrow's" rogues gallery, especially as a foil for Thea, and his hit-and-run chaotic tactics give the show a nice ground-level threat to counter-balance Darhk's cosmic ambitions....
*  *  *
At this point, enjoying "Arrow" is really about making the same thematic choice the show has been battering us with all year. Choose the light: Ignore the questionable plot points surrounding the show's arch-fiend and enjoy the rest of what the series has to offer, or choose the darkness, and keep complaining by my side.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

We Minored In Film's very negative review of 422...

ARROW’S “LOST IN THE FLOOD” (S4:E22): DOES ANYONE TAKE THIS SHOW SERIOUSLY ANYMORE?
Posted on May 19, 2016  by Kelly Konda    
https://weminoredinfilm.com/2016/05/19/arrows-lost-in-the-flood-s4e22-does-anyone-take-this-show-seriously-anymore/

Quote

This is a natural question now that Arrow has detonated a nuclear bomb on American soil in one episode and all but ignored it a week later (Felicity did look super sad while watching a newscast for a minute). For some, this is finally too far. We’ve accepted, so, so much from this dang show over the past four seasons, to the point that when you re-watch season 1 episodes on Netflix it almost feels like watching a completely different TV show. Back then, the villain was a Dark Archer also known as The Magician; this season, the villain has literal magical powers derived from a deeply stupid-looking magical totem.
*  *  *
Is that finally too far? Or is it just the latest example of why it does us no good to take Arrow remotely seriously anymore? After all, Arrow is set in the same universe as Legends of Tomorrow, and that show is a straight-up cartoon which breaks all of its own rules and features actors whose every melodramatic, “the stakes have literally never been higher!” line reading constantly assumes we’re about to cut to commercial.
*  *  *
Ever since Laurel Lance’s death, Arrow has turned out a series of increasingly watchable episodes, leading me to ask last week if the show was legitimately good again or at least better than it had been since the beginning of the season. Turns out, I spoke too soon because “Lost in the Flood” was an incredibly poor episode.
*  *  *
It’s not just that they didn’t do enough to honor the horror of having allowed a nuclear strike to happen on their watch. Heck, they made it even worse since who knows how many Star City residents died when the bio-dome crumbled. More importantly to this episode, though, there was just too much repetition of familiar themes. Are Malcolm and Thea still arguing about his love for her and her hatred of him? And why must his solution always be “brainwash”? Is Oliver still struggling with what it means to be a hero?

The current word is that season 5 will bring about several significant changes in the show, with Oliver possibly returning to working on his own. That might be a step back, but at this point it feels like Arrow could benefit from a bit of a shake-up.
*  *  *
2. Nitpick: I already pointed this out, but, seriously, one stray arrow took down that entire bio-dome? Serious mother flippin’ design flaw there, Damien.

3. Did You Notice When…: Oliver pulled a Hawkeye from The Avengers and pulled an arrow out of his quiver in mid-air and shot one of the Ghosts during the chase through suburbia? That. Was. Awesome!

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

fangirlish's very positive review of 422 (it's lengthy)...

Arrow 4×22 Review: ‘Lost in the Flood’ [Oh Frack]
1 DAY AGO by ALYSSA BARBIERI
http://fangirlish.com/arrow-4x22-review-lost-in-the-flood-oh-frack/

Quote

What has happened to Arrow lately? And I mean that in the best way possible because these last several episodes have been some of the show’s best in years.

As far as penultimate episodes on Arrow go, “Lost in the Flood” will go down as one of the show’s best. That is how you do a penultimate episode right there. All the applause; all the emotions; all the words.

Honestly, this is the best Arrow has been since season two, really, when Oliver was battling Slade Wilson and his army of Mirakuru soldiers....

“Lost in the Flood” didn’t serve as an in-between to set up the finale. It was a continuation of the events that ultimately have led us to next week’s season finale. It had all of the heart, emotion, action, and humor that have made Arrow a recipe for success. There was an effortlessness to it that’s been present since episode 20.

Can we take a moment to appreciate the stunts in this episode? That sequence with Oliver and Diggle running from the Ghosts within Damien Darhk’s underground city – with Oliver flying through the air and unleashing arrows – and Diggle firing bullets. It was so beautifully choreographed and riveting. I legit couldn’t keep my eyes off of it or stop my fist from going in the air. This is the stuff that Arrow stunts are made of. This is what Arrow needs to get back to.

This is one of my favorite episodes of the season just because of the weight of it all. The end of this season has brought forth a season-ending storyline that I didn’t expect but have been more than impressed by. Arrow is at its best when the stakes are high and the heroes rise to the occasion. And it’s that reason why I already know that the season four finale will be epic.
*  *  *
This is hands down the highest stakes that Arrow has ever faced, and it’s managed to execute in a way that is believable and chilling to the core. Darhk is still in possession of his magic, so how can Oliver and Team Arrow possibly stop him? The key, of course, is hope (which I’ll discuss later in this review). But one has to wonder what hope can do when matched against dark magic. Clearly there’s something we haven’t quite pieced together, but hope is clearly they key here.
*  *  *
But while Oliver is known for possessing that darkness that molded him into the hero he is today, there comes a point where the hero is going to need to overcome that darkness and embrace the hope that comes with being a hero. This is Oliver’s time.
*  *  *
There was something from the moment Curtis entered the Smoak fray that magic happened. As Felicity’s mother and father came face-to-face for the first time since Noah left (or Donna ran, actually) Curtis found himself in the middle of a live-action soap opera that literally prompted him and Felicity to drink their emotions away. The comedic timing of Emily Bett Rickards and Echo Kellum continues to be some of the best on television, and their dynamic has been one of the strengths of this season.
*  *  *
But let’s get one thing straight: Noah Kuttler isn’t all of a sudden justified in his actions. Sure, Donna was the one to run, but Kuttler is one of the best hackers in the world and you’re telling me he didn’t manage to find Felicity and Donna until nearly 20 years later? As if.
*  *  *
One of the great things about this storyline in this episode was how it was able to blend the family dynamics – both the humor and seriousness – as well as the big threat at hand as Felicity, Curtis, and Noah worked to stop Rubicon once and for all. It wasn’t just family drama. It was family drama intertwined with a significant plot point in this storyline. And it worked splendidly.

Arrow once again proved why it needs Felicity Smoak. Felicity and her arc provide a levity and genuineness even in the midst of a nuclear takeover that makes Arrow grounded in the midst of chaos. It’s Felicity’s superpower in a way. That and her genius hacking skills.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Craig Wack's generally positive review of 422...

Arrow Review: Anarky for the Coming Apocalypse
BY CRAIG WACK · MAY 19, 2016
http://oohlo.com/2016/05/19/arrow-review-anarky-for-the-coming-apocalypse/

Quote

Arrow took the opportunity to do some character development in this last episode before the season finale. Rubicon was still hanging around as a threat so it takes Felicity, her father and Curtis to beat back Darhk’s best hacker. Of course they can’t sail into the finale without a major twist, thankfully Anarky was already on the scene to make that happen.
*  *  *
*Darhk makes another classic Bond villain mistake early in the episode. While he’s all brimming with new magic power, he could have snuffed the life out of Ollie and Diggle in any number of ways. Instead he goes straight to the speech and counting on his plan — which has already been largely foiled once – to work and do the job for him.
*  *  *
*Curtis, good of you to show up. Where were you last week when we needed a widget out of your office? It would have come in handy preventing that small town from getting leveled by that nuke.
*  *  *
*The running battle scene was well done, especially the twisting reverse shot Oliver got off during the chase.
*  *  *
“Laurel is dead, because of you.” – Ollie. Not real significant, but this week’s mention of Laurel. Also significant you notice that Alex died last week and they used a stunt guy in a bad wig to play his corpse, yet they keep brining Katie Cassidy back? I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.
*  *  *
The twist ending raised the stakes and brings the heart of Team Arrow in total danger with Darhk. Much like this week’s Flash this episode set the table for season finale well with some nice action and a dash of character focus thrown in.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Tell-Tale TV's very positive review of 422...

Arrow Review: Lost In The Flood (Season 4 Episode 22)
May 19, 2016  Lissete Lanuza Saenz
http://telltaletv.com/2016/05/arrow-review-lost-in-the-flood-season-4-episode-22/

Quote

This is how you end your season with a bang. And I’m not just talking about a literal one.

Arrow has always done particularly strong season finales. Season 2, in particular comes to mind. We were on the edge of our couch for the last 3-4 episodes then.

We’re on the edge of our seats now.

It could be that Damien Darhk makes for a particularly compelling villain. Perhaps it’s that the stakes have been raised so high it’s almost impossible to see past them.

Or maybe, just maybe, it’s that, this time, the story is global. It’s not just about Team Arrow, it’s about us.
*  *  *
All of us.
*  *  *
Felicity, Noah and Donna are every dysfunctional family we’ve ever seen, every parent who’s always done what they thought was best for their child. They’re real, they’re relatable and they’re as messed up as we expected them to be.

Sure, Donna did wrong, but you won’t see me defending Noah Kuttler. Oh, no. I’m 100% Team Donna.

He’s the best hacker in the world, after all. If he wanted to be in his daughter’s life, he would have found a way.

Yes, she took Felicity away from him, but once that was done; he just …took the easy way out.
*  *  *
Two years ago, when Arrow was moving full steam ahead towards one of the best finales television had ever seen, Oliver wasn’t capable of providing that hope. He was a broken, damaged man then.

Not so much now.

He isn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination, this Oliver Queen, and he might not be the hero his city deserves, but, as the often quoted line says, he’s the one they need.
*  *  *
- Yes, Oliver was mostly at fault for their breakup. Yes, Felicity was right to take some time for herself. And yet, Curtis is also right …her reactions do have a lot to do with her parents. This is true for most of us. Felicity’s default mechanism for dealing with pain is …well, running the other way. And as understandable as that is, you can/will lose a lot of things if you’re not willing to fight for them.
- I want to believe think that at some point someone at Star Labs (probably Cisco) will call up Oliver (Not Sara and Lance, but at least Oliver) and be all like: “Hey, we kinda sorta have an Earth-2 version of Laurel locked in Star Labs. Just a heads up.”
- Because, that’s just a confrontation that begs to be written. It’s too good to pass up.
*  *  *
- Basically, this last stretch of episodes makes me happy. This is Arrow at it’s absolute best. May it continue on next season.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[thegirlsleuth]

I don't always 100 percent agree with him, but the guy from the LA Times is turning into one of my favorite reviewers.

[tv echo]

heroesdirect's negative review of 422...

Arrow: “Lost in the Flood”
by EAMMON JACOBS on MAY 18, 2016 
http://heroes.direct/tv/arrow-s4e22/

Quote

... And it’s mainly an action driven episode, leaving not much room for character development on the Green Arrow’s side of things. When Thea is drugged by Malcolm Merlyn, a fight ensues between herself and Oliver. It’s mildly interesting, but it doesn’t exactly fill us with excitement, there’s no way that Ollie would go so far as to kill her, and he’s far more skilled than her – meaning she wouldn’t be able to kill him. So it’s a little bland.

We get a huge amount of character development on Felicity’s half, as we see the fiery relationship between her mother and father escalate when they’re in the same room together. Although why Felicity ends up calling the man who left her for two decades ‘Dad’ at the end of the episode, escapes us. Does she not remember that he’s also a convicted criminal who’s technically on the run? Naive writing of Felicity strikes again. It’s a shame to see the writers build her up time after time, to just relegate her down to where she was before. She’s a fan favourite character, at least treat her with a bit of respect.

We also finally see the demise of one of the most annoying characters on the show: Ruve Adams. Her dialogue may aswell just read “I’m a supervillain, I am evil”. Because that’s mainly the gist of every single thing she says. She’s two-dimensional, and hardly a compelling villain for Team Arrow. Lonnie Macin/Anarky kills her, and it’s definitely for the best. Can we have an emotionally compelling antagonist for Season 5? Please? ...
*  *  *
Overall, it’s not a great episode – and leaves us wondering, what is left to happen in the finale? Because this would be the stereotypical ending, huge fight, massive explosion and so on and so on. Hopefully it builds on the shaky foundation of this episode.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I don't always 100 percent agree with him, but the guy from the LA Times is turning into one of my favorite reviewers.

I think it's about balance. James Queally's main job, I think, is writing crime stories for the LA Times. I feel like reviewers/writers that aren't only concentrating on TV/comics tend to realize that a TV show is just that, and don't take it too seriously beyond 1) does it make sense? and 2) did I enjoy it/was I entertained. 

[tv echo]

HeroesandHeartbreakers' positive review of 422...

Put Aside Your Differences: Arrow 4x22 Olicity Heart-to-Heart
MARILYN PORTER   MAY 19, 2016
http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2016/05/put-aside-your-differences-arrow-4x22-olicity-heart-to-heart

Quote

Over at the ark, Oliver and Dig are still hiding, having to hold this family hostage. Oliver has to call Dig off when he threatens to get violent. They reveal they’re in the ark of their own volition, no mind control pills.  The world is sick, the city was sick, the city fell apart anyhow despite all the promises that it would be saved. They believe Damien is giving them hope… can they give them hope? With their masks? This makes me believe that Oliver WILL reveal himself as the Green Arrow in the finale. Without the mask. He will inspire hope.
*  *  *
There wasn’t a lot of Olicity this week, much like last week. However, what we got was quality. First, there was the hug that Felicity engulfed Oliver in when he returned in one piece from his confrontation with Darhk. He seemed as stunned by it as I was. I think it showed an overall softening in her attitude towards Oliver. Further softening? Her relationship with her father and the realization that the man hadn’t abandoned her as a child. In fact, when Curtis pointed out the similarities between her parents feuding and her and Oliver, Felicity seemed to deeply contemplate the seriousness of that. Could it be that she might believe that staying away from Oliver is no longer the best thing to do? And now, with Damien threatening her (and Donna and Curtis), how will this further drive her towards Oliver? I don’t know, I feel pretty good about a reconciliation in the finale right now, you guys!

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

4YourExcitement's positive review of 422...

DAMIEN DARHK’S MASTER PLAN TAKES A HIT IN ARROW’S PENULTIMATE EPISODE
Verena Cote | May 19, 2016 |
http://www.4ye.co.uk/2016/05/damien-darhks-master-plan-takes-a-hit-in-arrows-penultimate-episode/

Quote

This week’s episode brings Curtis into the action. He is ready to support Felicity and Noah in all things hacking. While Rubicon may be delayed, it has not been fully stopped just yet. But Curtis is not the only new player on the chess field. In a more surprising turn of events Cooper Seldon, Felicity’s ex-boyfriend and a devilishly good hacker himself joins Team Darhk.

Once again the two former lovers are facing off against each other, this time with a couple of miles between them. It’s Hacker vs Hacker, and sparks fly. Literally.  Once again Felicity proves that she is the best hacker in the world and does not just take care of Cooper but also takes Rubicon offline. For now, the world is saved.
*  *  *
... By the end of the episode it is Donna that sends Noah away, once again. She tells her former husband to leave, walk out of Felicity’s life, because he is a danger to her. We wonder what else Noah is hiding.

Nice is not the word we would use to see Donna and Noah rip each other’s heads off, but it’s still an interesting dynamic. It is also quite hilarious, if we’re being honest. The whole Smoak family and their dynamics might just be the best thing that came out of season four.  
*  *  * 
Arrow delivers yet another solid episode before the big finale hits next week. Darhk’s master plan may be canceled, but he will stop at nothing to get what he wants. And he wants to see the world burn. Things have been going to well for Team Arrow, next week surely holds some surprises for us.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

Stephen Amell Teases New Villain on ‘Arrow’ Season 5

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/arrow-season-5-supergirl-crossover-villain-stephen-amell-1201778868/

Quote

“‘Supergirl’ is coming, but we don’t have to introduce a new show next year. In Season 2, it was the introduction of ‘The Flash’ and crossovers there, and last year there was a lot with ‘Legends of Tomorrow,’ and we don’t have to do that this year because ‘Supergirl’ is already established,” Amell said. “So I would like to focus on a lot of the stuff that I think ‘Arrow’ does very well.”

[wonderwall]

35 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I don't always 100 percent agree with him, but the guy from the LA Times is turning into one of my favorite reviewers.

[thegirlsleuth]

22 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I think it's about balance. James Queally's main job, I think, is writing crime stories for the LA Times. I feel like reviewers/writers that aren't only concentrating on TV/comics tend to realize that a TV show is just that, and don't take it too seriously beyond 1) does it make sense? and 2) did I enjoy it/was I entertained. 

I just took a look at his bio and realized that he is part of the Noir at the Bar crew of crime fiction writers. Between him and Allison Brennen, mystery writers are big Arrow fans.

[thegirlsleuth]

17 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Boooo.

[apinknightmare]

I'd really love to watch the version of The Flash that the people like James Queally are watching. I know Arrow isn't high art in the slightest, and that The Flash benefits by being "lighter," but it's kinda losing the thread IMO. Barry's still a dumbass who continues doing dumbass things, and the plots are kinda repetitive and hole-y. Although I guess maybe the holes are less likely to be called out when they involve time remnants and other made-up science-y things. 

[thegirlsleuth]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I'd really love to watch the version of The Flash that the people like James Queally are watching. I know Arrow isn't high art in the slightest, and that The Flash benefits by being "lighter," but it's kinda losing the thread IMO. Barry's still a dumbass who continues doing dumbass things, and the plots are kinda repetitive and hole-y. Although I guess maybe the holes are less likely to be called out when they involve time remnants and other made-up science-y things. 

I'm with you--I feel like things are really repetitive, plot wise and character wise, and Barry doesn't have a whole lot of growth. My night job is writing crime novels and I was on a panel with Allison Brennen and a few others.  All the mystery authors were Arrow fans.  All the sci fi authors loved Flash.

[lemotomato]

I think the appeal of The Flash is similar to the appeal of procedural series-- villain/problem of the week tied up in a little bow at the end, protagonists learn a superficial lesson that is specific to that episode but doesn't necessarily carry over in the long run, so it's easily forgettable and they keep learning the same lesson over and over again. There's a reason why series like the CSIs and the NCISs consistently get high ratings and have long lifespans.

[tv echo]

It's interesting that the mystery writers were Arrow fans, @thegirlsleuth.  Remember this 2012 interview with MG (before Arrow debuted)?...

Quote

“In terms of secrets, for us, the secret is Oliver,” Guggenheim explains when asked to reveal secrets to the journalists at the table. “One of the things we’re doing is, we don’t really consider the show a superhero show. We consider it more like a hero show; more like a crime thriller, and as with any with crime thriller, you’re going to have a mystery. Except unlike CSI where it’s a body drop at the beginning of every episode, the mystery is Oliver. Oliver is the case of the week, basically. Each week we’re peeling back the layers of his character, both in the present and in the past. We’re going to be continuing the flashbacks into the series, so you’ll get to see what happened to him on the island, and it won’t always be the things that you expect. We’re trying to always surprise the audience, so the mysteries and the twists come out of character as opposed to out of plots.”

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

Flash, I think, is mainly written like it's a kids show... Not a lot of consequences are explored (although kudos for incorporating Caitlyn's PTSD in the last episode), not a lot of dark things happen, it's a light show, relationships aren't as explored except for the father/son relationship. 

It's a rather simple show...

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Flash, I think, is mainly written like it's a kids show... Not a lot of consequences are explored (although kudos for incorporating Caitlyn's PTSD in the last episode), not a lot of dark things happen, it's a light show, relationships aren't as explored except for the father/son relationship. 

It's a rather simple show...

It really is. Season 1, at least, could have fit right in on the Disney channel when they were making shows like "Phil of the Future"

[thegirlsleuth]

That's a great quote, @tv echo.  I think the really achieved those goals in seasons 1 and 2. I remember watching the ending of season 2 and thinking that the character development for Oliver was beautifully done, especially when viewed in reference to the flashbacks.  I do think that season 1 had both the mystery plot as well as the character development for Oliver.

Mystery authors are big comics fans, with several writing as well as reading.

[FurryFury]

The Flash is pretty much a shounen. For those who aren't familiar with anime, it's a genre/demographic (it's a bit complicated) aimed at teenage boys. It doesn't mean it should be overly simplistic - I mean, Fullmetal Alchemist also was a shounen, and it explored a lot of fairly adult themes - but a typical shounen show is something like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece or (before them) Dragonball. It's a pretty simple, male-targeted, action-heavy story, usually having the same beats - the majority of action heroes are guys, the main character resolves the obstacles by the sheer force of willpower/caring for his friends/peptalks, childhood friend romance, the hero being something of an idiot, mentors playing a huge role in the story, familial issues, etc. This stuff draws a lot of male viewers (sometimes female, too, but they usually don't focus on the same stuff as guys), so I'm not really surprised at Flash's popularity. More like by its critical acclaim - but then, the critics are often fans as well.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, FurryFury said:

The Flash is pretty much a shounen. For those who aren't familiar with anime, it's a genre/demographic (it's a bit complicated) aimed at teenage boys. It doesn't mean it should be overly simplistic - I mean, Fullmetal Alchemist also was a shounen, and it explored a lot of fairly adult themes - but a typical shounen show is something like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece or (before them) Dragonball. It's a pretty simple, male-targeted, action-heavy story, usually having the same beats - the majority of action heroes are guys, the main character resolves the obstacles by the sheer force of willpower/caring for his friends/peptalks, childhood friend romance, the hero being something of an idiot, mentors playing a huge role in the story, familial issues, etc. This stuff draws a lot of male viewers (sometimes female, too, but they usually don't focus on the same stuff as guys), so I'm not really surprised at Flash's popularity. More like by its critical acclaim - but then, the critics are often fans as well.

Hah! You just listed out my Godson's favorite Anime's. He loves them and i think they're utter crap (excluding Full Metal Alchemist which i thought was pretty good). 

[FurryFury]

I agree with you - I did manage to get through a 100 of episodes of Bleach like 12 years ago, but I have the excuse of being a teenager at that time. Currently I'm working as a video game translator for a living, so I do sometimes have to deal with this stuff (I'm working on a Naruto strategy right now), plus I have friends who still like this stuff. It was one of them, also a Flash fan, who suggested the parallel, and I was astonished as to how accurate it was.

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I was trying to figure out why this post bugged me, while Chris Hayner's (from zap2it) obvious love for Flash doesn't. I realized that my annoyance stems from the difference between saying "Show A is is better than Show B", as opposed to "I enjoy Show A more than I enjoy/dislike Show B." One statement is supposed to be based on something that is measureable, and creates a situation where people will jump in and start fights, while the other is just preference, where no one is really right or wrong. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Arrow also has many of very vocal fans among romance writers. I can't remember who it was who'd said she used Oliver and Felicity as templates for her novel. Allison Brennan was mentioned above. She writes a review with Lavinia Kent. Jennifer Crusie began writing about Arrow again at the beginning of the season, though I have a feeling she's already dropped it again (I imagine the BMD would have driven her nuts). These are the people that come to mind, although I know there are many others from conversations I've seen on Twitter. 

[AyChihuahua]

I really like Chris Hayner. He's smart and funny and pretty feminist.

[lemotomato]

3 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Arrow also has many of very vocal fans among romance writers. I can't remember who it was who'd said she used Oliver and Felicity as templates for her novel. 

That would be Gina L. Maxwell. I read the first book out of curiosity, and IMO in actuality it was very loosely based on Oliver and Felicity's histories. More of an interpretation of season 2 Olicity.

Edited May 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[kismet]

Nice article about SA & CH. I really do hope the CH comes back to the show in whatever way works for for him. Also this might be explaining one of the photos I saw on my twitter feed.

http://www.eonline.com/news/766774/stephen-amell-so-happy-for-arrow-co-star-colton-haynes-for-coming-out-as-gay

[EmilyBettFan]

James Q. Can like The Flash all he wants. The show is still a repetitive mess with the same shit happening over and over again. Let's not forget how the show stole word for word dialogue of Arrow episode 2x20.

[tv echo]

ITA...

[tv echo]

Craig Wack & Tatiana Torres discuss Arrow 422 beginning at 1:11:26...

Agents of GEEK Podcast Episode 29
Posted on 05/20/2016
http://agentsofgeekpodcast.com/wordpress/

-- Tatiana liked Arrow more than The Flash this week.  However, Craig liked The Flash a little more than Arrow this week "just because The Flash was more reminiscent of The Flash he liked [from season 1]" and "that was kind of a nice treat compared to what we got the rest of the season." 

-- Craig still had problems with Darhk's whole plan, although now they explained how he was going to power the dome.  Tatiana noted that he was nuking the Earth in order to give himself more power from all those deaths. 

-- Craig said that they have these two stories, one of which was "this nice Felicity story" where there were these competing hackers with her old boyfriend and where Curtis finally showed up, after being missing last week when he could've helped them stop that town from being nuked "if he had only been in his f*cking office."  However, he also thought that having Curtis present this week helped give a nice perspective of someone watching the Smoak parents bickering.

-- Tatiana was really angry at Donna's telling Noah to leave again because she felt that it was Felicity's decision whether or not to tell her father to leave: "She's a f*cking adult, she can decide whether she wants her father to be in her life, she knows what the dangers are, she knows that Noah's a criminal... it's not f*ckin' up to you. And frankly, that wasn't up to you when she was a kid either. Like, you robbed your kid of time with her dad. Yes, would there be a possibility that he would've gone back to his life of crime? ... But you don't know that. That's not your call to play God and make those judgments... So I was very unhappy with Mama Smoak at the end of episode." Craig and Tatiana said that they are very "pro Felicity on her own" so they were happy that she got her own storyline.

-- In the other story, Craig noted that Anarky played "a huge role in forming and setting up the finale." Tatiana said that if Oliver and Diggle were trying to find someone and be secretive about it, "maybe take off your masks as you're walking through the middle of the neighborhood." Maybe they should've stolen some of same grey uniforms that everyone was wearing, instead of being so obvious.

-- Craig laughed over the obvious body double for Thea's dead boyfriend. Tatiana said: "That was the worst. I mean it was so obvious... Alex had short spiky hair, and this dude had this f*cking Beatles moptop. I mean, they didn't even try." Craig said that "they didn't even try to put any pomade in his hair." It was like they just found someone who fit that shirt and told him to lay there for a couple hours and "let Willa Holland wallow on you for a little while."  Craig then said: "Yet they keep bringing Katie Cassidy back. I'm not saying, I'm just saying... That's the end of my tinfoil hat brigade of Laurel's not dead... I'm not letting it go, guys. I'm not letting it go."

-- After recapping what Anarky did in the control center because he felt betrayed by Darhk, Craig said: "For all you wannbe evil masterminds out there, always take care of your minions... Give them the love, attention and regular tick baths that it requires to keep them happy."

-- They noted that one arrow shot to the coolant tank caused the whole thing to collapse and noted that the coolant tank should've been better protected. Craig thought that Darhk's daughter might be a wild card in the finale.

-- Tatiana said that there's one episode left "and clearly there's bigger sh*t going on," but "five percent of my brain, which is the opposite of the other 95%, because I know there's bigger fish to fry ... this is all a very cool story, but when are Felicity and Oliver going to get back together?" They both laughed. She noted that this week Felicity hugged Oliver and said "I'm glad you're not dead," and he's like, 'cool, but expound on that a little bit, baby?' Craig then said: "Can they pull a Flash and go to the other room and have a heart-to-heart?" Tatiana said that they really need that because it'll help her "cope with whatever nonsense we're going to have to cope with next week." Craig asked that the show take care of that, just take a couple minutes: "We could've done without the Mama Smoak folding episode and spent a little more time on Oliver and Felicity, maybe."

-- Tatiana noted that there was "only two seconds of Lance" and "why would you have Lance watch the f*cking computers? Lance doesn't know computers." Craig said it was like they had to have him in the episode, just like they had to have John Barrowman in the episode.

-- Craig noted that Felicity went from being devastated at having caused thousands of deaths to having to solve this problem with her dad and having a beer with Curtis.  Tatiana noted there was so much levity in those scenes, despite the fact that they just nuked a town.

Flash:
-- Tatiana said that they acknowledged Laurel's death "in the least emotional way ever."  Craig said: "We learn the news in the show that Laurel's dead from Laurel's doppelganger, who is Black Siren, who is an evil Earth 2 doppelganger... She's the first one to say, like, Laurel's dead.... And then the most emotional response was, like, when Harry Wells was, like, 'who's this?' ... 'oh, did we know this person?' ... And then we get from Danielle Panabaker, 'oh, not only did we know her, we loved her' ...  And that's it."  Then Tatiana said: "Except we haven't talked about her at all. We haven't mentioned that Barry went to her funeral. We didn't go to her funeral. We haven't talked about it. She's been dead - where does this put it in the timeline? Like, it raises so many more questions than it answered, you know what I mean?"  They noted that Barry had just gotten his powers back at the end of the last episode, so when did he have time to go to the funeral? So, was the funeral before that, but no one happened to mention that Laurel was dead?

-- They noted that Black Siren is now "locked up" in the basement because "Katie Cassidy needs a job." There will be more opportunities for her to guest star on the shows, since BS could easily escape and "find her way to Star City or somewhere." Tatiana noted that all of these superhero shows need better security for their lairs, labs and prisons.

Edited May 21, 2016 by tv echo