Criminal Minds Unpopular Opinions

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I don't think Nathan Harris was glorified, but the difference there is that Harris hadn't actually killed anyone. He, technically, wasn't a 'bad guy' and there may be an argument somewhere that in knowing he had to get help may ultimately prevent him from ever committing a crime. Certainly you can be sympathetic to someone who isn't a serial killer/murder/rapist and is more afraid of his own mind.

 

The thing with Sarah Jean, and it has been awhile since I watched the episode, but was she given the death penalty just for murdering her son, or her role in her husband's activities? Because honestly, when I watched it, it was clear to me she knew what her husband was doing and should have been punished for that. I agree with normasm that she wasn't heroic, she was an enabler for a monster. And given her role in the crime, being glorified - having the lead character sympathise and cry over her - was just too much. And just because she wanted to protect her son that makes her a saint?

 

But ultimately, given she didn't kill her son (and i am presuming here that that was her death penalty crime), I thought it was ridiculous that Gideon would let her die for it. Letting her martyr herself for no good reason is a joke. To protect her son? Please. It's not like the public would crucify the child, and if his adoptive parents were any good, the kid would have been fine. And I thought it was a really shitty thing for Gideon to let happen.

SparedTurkey, I admit that it is a very fine line concerning Nathan Harris, as he hadn't done any of the things he was fantasizing about doing, but I think what we can agree on is that, left unchecked, he probably would have. I'm not a member of the psychiatric profession, so I have no training in understanding such things, but as a layman I can make an educated guess that nine times out of ten, serial killers don't want to stop and don't want to be stopped. It's a Hollywood conceit that someone like Nathan Harris would come forward before he spilled blood that wasn't his own, and if I can draw a perhaps inapt comparison, given what insisting that serial killers can reform did for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, its one I wish would go away.

 

As for Sarah Jean, yes, she was an enabler, and yes she looked the other way while Jacob committed his crimes. But the court of public opinion probably had her convicted long before the jury came back with their verdict. If I extrapolate from that presumption, I can only imagine what the people who were clamoring for her and Jacob to die would have said if they'd discovered there was fruit from the rotten Dawes family tree. She'd have been no different than one of Manson's followers, IMO, and the kid would probably have suffered on one level or another.

 

I'm torn about whether Gideon should have done more to get the execution postponed or even vacated. As a profiler, he might have had some clout, but legally there has to be proof of innocence before there could be even a stay, and without evidence that the boy was alive it would have only been a stay. I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

 

And normasm, I respect your take in kind. It's just that to me it is a very fine line being one situation and the other. Nathan wanting to kill himself is IMO not that different than Sarah Jean being willing to die when in both cases it prevents innocents from being hurt.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[ForeverAlone]

To me, what Gideon did was the equivalent of withholding evidence at a trial that wrongfully convicted an innocent person. He knew that Sarah didn't commit the crimes she was being executed for, and he did nothing to stop it. He allowed the state to execute an innocent person, because he didn't tell officials in charge of the execution what he knew. To me, it doesn't matter if she wanted to die. She can go commit suicide on her own terms then. That's not the state's job.  For me, it is vitally important that if the state is going to execute someone, they execute someone who is actually guilty, otherwise the entire point of execution is moot. We have heard on more than one occasion in real life where the state executed someone only to have that person be exonerated after the fact. I have a problem with the fact that Gideon allowed an innocent woman to be executed by doing nothing as a law enforcement officer, and I have an even bigger problem with the manipulative writing for this episode that the audience was supposed to be on board with that and think it was some sort of noble sacrifice on Sarah's part. All I could think when I watched this episode is that the state just executed an innocent woman and Gideon failed in his law enforcement duties by not even attempting to stop the process. And my guess is that is not the sort of thoughts the writers were hoping to evoke when they made this episode. :) :) :)

Edited August 31, 2014 by ForeverAlone

[zannej]

I think the point of the episode was that it was a gray area with no directly right answer. I don't think they expected all of the audience members to agree on whether or not Gideon did the right thing. I think he felt conflicted but it was a "damned if you do, damned if  you don't" thing and he went with emotions instead of rational thinking- something he did quite often.

 

On one hand, I don't like the idea of someone being executed for a crime they did not commit. I believe that Sara felt she deserved to die. Maybe she felt that she could have prevented some of the murders and that it made her guilty. I really don't know on that front.

 

It wasn't a black and white clearcut thing. I honestly didn't actually care enough about Sarah Jean to really care whether or not she died, but maybe I just need to re-watch the episode. I believe the first time I watched it, I was bugged that he didn't stop the execution. Its hard to tell whether or not they actually would have really stopped it though. And it most certainly would have turned the son's life upside down.

 

Now, if he had disregarded her wishes and the boy had been exposed and been beaten, attacked, or had something bad happen to him; then Gideon would have felt like crap and wished he'd done what Sarah Jean wanted. But, he made a decision and he was stuck with it so there's no telling what would have actually happened had he made a different call.

 

What if the governor had not been willing to wait for dna on the boy or confirmation that he was the son?

Did Gideon even let the rest of the team in on the fact that they found the boy and he was the right one?

 

It would have been interesting to see the fallout if Hotch had ever confronted Gideon about it. I don't think Hotch would have made the same call-- nor would Reid.

Edited August 31, 2014 by zannej

[Wilowy]

I have mixed feelings about this one because even though Sarah did sacrifice herself so her son could continue to believe his life was real, and it was earned by him, and I'm glad Gideon went along with her wishes... I always wished the adopted father would have come forward. 

 

I thought his declaration, with all he (and his adopted son) had at stake, would have been more devastating, more real, more heroic. I did want the murderer to fry. But I didn't want Sarah Jane to. And the perfect person to come forward would have been the dad (or the mom) of the boy. 

 

Did Gideon have a responsibility to come forward? Yep, legally, he did. But that doesn't always happen in real life, and I'm glad he chose to honor Sarah's final wish.

[SparedTurkey]

@Zannej - I thought there was some reference to her picking up/luring the girls for her husband. And I think there was some suggestion that she knew the girls were/being killed and was more willfully blind to situation in comparison to other wives who legitimately didn't know what there husbands were up to. 

 

I understand what you are saying about Sarah Jean's thought process but at the end of the day, it's not the state's problem. And to be fair, while she would have been criticised, I don't think the boy would have suffered much. Change his name, seal records, move and he's fine. I mean, I've never heard of any of Charles Manson's kids (except the one arrested for murder, but you know, not really the same thing). You're right though, the Governor may have chosen to do nothing anyway - but at the same time, I have no sympathy for Gideon feeling guilty and/or sad because he really brought it on himself. I guess maybe he liked Sarah Jean because they were both self-made martyrs.

 

Cobalt Stargazer: While I think that Nathan Harris would have committed the crimes he was fantasising about if unchecked, he was checked. And perhaps he wasn't a sociopath/psychopath because he knew it would be wrong and got help (and yes, Hollywood conceit, but great episode). At the end episode though, he wasn't cured and he was in for a lifetime of second-guessing and worry. And I think the difference between Nathan Harris and Sarah Jean is that, while they both wanted to die, he tried to kill himself, whereas she martyred herself for no reason and used the state to do it. Also, if an adult is acting like a child, there is something wrong there and I have much less sympathy for the adult. Yes her life may have sucked afterwards, but that is on her. It's her actions that made her life the way it was. But it isn't the state's responsibility to cater to her whims.

 

I guess Zannej, my issue is, like you said, that Gideon chose to let her die for a crime she didn't commit. At the end of the day  Gideon is a federal agent and was acting in that capacity. He wasn't her friend. He has a higher/more important duty. It's not up to him to choose whether to go along with a serial killer's wife or to follow the law. His job is to uphold the law. While I know cops/LEO's are human and make mistakes, I think Gideon really screwed the pooch here. His duty wasn't to Sarah Jean, and even if no one listened to him he had an obligation to try. If it helps, I would also have thought poorly of Reid if he had of let Nathan Harris bleed out because Nathan told him he really wanted to die.

 

Also, I hated the Reid on drugs storyline because there is just no way Hotch would have let it go. Gideon was fairly self-absorbed and not much of a people person, so I can see it (Also why I think he was a crap mentor). When the newbie on the team is taking more of an issue with it, you know Hotch would have gotten involved. I guess it was lucky they had a case (New Orleans?) where Reid's friend was, who could dispense life-changing advice. I mean, if a defence lawyer had ever caught wind of it - there goes a dozen convictions (of course, this was back in the series when Reid was important and often help to solve a case, not just sway in the background).

[zannej]

I'll definitely have to watch it again to see if she actually was luring the victims. I thought she wasn't involved and they just found the bodies or something. I might be confusing it with something else though. I do think that the police believed she was an accomplice though.

 

Or if she did help him, was it because she was afraid of him? I can't really remember.

 

And yeah, Gideon legally did the wrong thing, which does happen with LEOs sometimes. They are human. I think Gideon was just very flawed.

 

My biggest gripe about the Reid drug angle was that nobody intervened-- although I think the reason they didn't was because they knew that if they had proof that he was on drugs, they would legally and ethically be obligated to report it and it would have meant the end of his career-- unless by some miracle the FBI was willing to accept that it was from PTSD and that he was drugged against his will and they spun it in such a way that he didn't illegally obtain any drugs (other than the ones he stole from the crime scene-- which may or may not have come out in an investigation from OIG). If he got prescriptions somehow it might not have been quite as bad-- but he still was an addict and he likely would not have been allowed to stay in the BAU. I think they knew that if he got kicked out it might have gone even more downhill for him. Plus I think they probably didn't want to believe he had a drug problem and were convincing themselves it was just PTSD--but even then, he should have been sent for evaluation and offered treatment before it got worse.

[Wilowy]

That's exactly why I hope, if they revisit this storyline in 10, that they acknowledge it and help him. Even if it's on the dl. Our team is a tight family now, and for fuck's sake, keep Callahan out of the loop. She hasn't earned the inner-circle stuff yet.

[SparedTurkey]

 

And yeah, Gideon legally did the wrong thing, which does happen with LEOs sometimes. They are human. I think Gideon was just very flawed.

This is true, but then again, if I wanted to watch flawed LEOs who take matters into their own hands, I'd watch Law and Order: SVU. I expect better from this show.

 

My biggest gripe about the Reid drug angle was that nobody intervened-- although I think the reason they didn't was because they knew that if they had proof that he was on drugs, they would legally and ethically be obligated to report it and it would have meant the end of his career...Plus I think they probably didn't want to believe he had a drug problem and were convincing themselves it was just PTSD--but even then, he should have been sent for evaluation and offered treatment before it got worse.

Again true (I think Hotch spells this out to Prentiss also) but even if they didn't want to explicitly state it and deal with it, as the boss, Hotch could have/should have made Reid see a psych. It was affecting his work, it was affecting the team. It's not like they couldn't have worked around the drugs if the FBI wanted to know why - he'd just been kidnapped, so PTSD was a valid/true reason to see a shrink. Considering how guilty Hotch felt over Elle's shooting/breakdown I think it was OOC for him to ignore it. And considering how willing he was to let Elle go once she had shot someone and refusal to keep her in the BAU, I could see him taking a similar attitude with Reid.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

if I wanted to watch flawed LEOs who take matters into their own hands, I'd watch Law and Order: SVU. I expect better from this show.

I'm gonna say this one last thing, and then I'll be quiet. :-P

 

The thing is, you did see that on this show. Elle decided that William Lee needed to die, and so she shot and killed him. Later on, Hotch beat George Foyet to death with his fists to protect Jack and avenge Haley's murder. Was it revenge and/or taking things into their own hands? Sure, maybe. But given the respective situations, I fault them less than perhaps I should. Neither of these guys were Nathan Harris, who wanted to stop before he started, and I doubt that they'd have martyred themselves as Sarah Jean did. Sometimes you just have to stop the infection before it spreads. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying I understand.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[ForeverAlone]

I do have a problem with Elle's kill. To me that was basically murder since she had no OFFICIAL reason for being there. She was looking for a fight, and it wasn't some heat of the moment thing like when Hotch beat Foyet to death . I think Hotch sensed that. He knew there was something off about her story, but didn't have the evidence to prove it. I wish the show had not essentially turned Elle into an impulsive vigilante killer to write her off.

Edited August 31, 2014 by ForeverAlone

[SparedTurkey]

Colbalt Stargazer: After this I should be quiet too after this ;)

I know I saw it on this show, particularly with Elle, but I think that the difference was that there was some kind of punishment/investigation. While Elle's shooting was declared a 'clean shoot', I liked it in that Hotch was clearly pissed and flat out refused to let her stay in the BAU. And would have pressed for an investigation if she pushed the issue (which, in light of the previous clearing, probably would not have resulted in anything of consequence happening). Whereas, while that episode was airing, in many other procedurals their main characters were beating up perps and those shows were portraying them as heroes for it. SVU, CSI, NCIS - most main characters regularly ignore criminal laws and procedures because gosh darn it, their gut says they are right. It doesn't matter if what they do is illegal - they are the good guys! Sometimes it makes for good television, but when it is repeated so often, the main characters turn into hypocrites and I don't like rooting for them. I liked that this show (at least in the earlier seasons) was different in this respect. I don't mind anti-heros, but no procedural has set out to have one (maybe The Mentalist, but even that is iffy).

Similarly, with Hotch, while he beat the life out of Foyet, that I could actually see/accept as both self-defence and the defence of Jack (I'm not saying I liked the storyline, because it was pure hollywood in having a serial killer target the FBI in such a personal manner, but that may be a separate UO). But at the same time, it was investigated by Strauss and whatever the FBI version of Internal Affairs is. Yes, cleared because he is the main lead, but at the same time he wasn't just getting patted on the back and a key to the city.

 

I'm not saying Gideon killed Sarah Jean, but I do think his actions were legally, ethically and professionally wrong and I wish the show had not portrayed it as something honourable and that there was some kind of fallout - whether Hotch/Strauss cracked it at him or there was a reference to him meeting with the FBI IA or just some kind of blowback. Similarly, Morgan should have been fully raked over the coals for the Slow-Clap episode. Also, to show I'm not just picking on characters I don't like - Reid's Vegas case should have resulted in some kind of professional standards inquiry. Also, as much as I love Prentiss and don't mind Demonology (if for no other reason than I like watching PB act, and this was a good episode for that) she shouldn't have been near that case with a 10 foot pole (even if Rossi encouraged it).

[ForeverAlone]

This is an excerpt of what I had to say about "25 to Life" aka the Morgan Slow Clap Episode right after it aired. :D :D :D :D

 

"Once the case started, the profiling techniques used to connect Tom Whitman to Mary Rutka were good, but the link back to James Stanworth was tenuous at best. The only “evidence” implicating Stanworth was that he was a businessman who used to live in that house before Sanderson and his campaign slogan was the same common phrase “let’s do this” that was uttered on the videotape. There was no proven link to the other two accomplices or to any of the murders.To me, this is when the story completely loses its center and descends into Hollywood cliché. Strauss was right; there was no evidence to arrest Stanworth. But did Morgan listen? Oh hell no. This was the part where Hotch’s absence was keenly felt. I felt the show was fine up to this point without him, but I can’t imagine Hotch ever okaying Morgan to do what he did next. Morgan acted completely unprofessionally and impetuously. It was more like he was a child angry that his parent told him no, so he stomped out of the room, and proceeded to do what he wanted anyway, thereby opening the BAU and the local police department up to a lawsuit. You can’t just arrest someone, because to quote Morgan’s inane reason for targeting Stanworth “it just might be him.” Why the hell did it take the newbie to ask “what if they were wrong?” There was ZERO probable cause to arrest Stanworth. But Morgan trespasses into Stanworth’s home and then taunts him in front of Stanworth’s friends and colleagues, calling him a murderer and a psychopath. And when Stanworth loses his cool, he is arrested. Again on what grounds? Stanworth didn’t say anything that would implicate him in the murders. He only got angry. Well if some strange man barged into my home and started accusing me of being a murderer in front of my friends, I would probably lose my cool as well. Most likely a judge will throw out Stanworth’s arrest as unjustified and any evidence gathered from the arrest and search would be thrown out as fruit from the poisonous tree. So there just went the entire case, and now Stanworth probably has grounds for a harassment suit against Morgan. Yeah that’s some great, logical storytelling there."

 

That episode was tied for my least favorite of season six (the other one being the OTHER Erica Messer story- "Supply and Demand". She did not have a good track record for episodes this season). I get that Criminal Minds is not a documentary, but I appreciate it when the show actually shows them following the law to catch criminals. There were times in early seasons when that was violated (Gideon freaking out in "What Fresh Hell"), but at least they acknowledged the problems their impetuous actions could cause. I hate it when the show acts like the BAU is some rogue element and they are justified for acting outside of the law. 

Edited August 31, 2014 by ForeverAlone

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I do have a problem with Elle's kill. To me that was basically murder since she had no OFFICIAL reason for being there. She was looking for a fight, and it wasn't some heat of the moment thing like when Hotch beat Foyet to death . I think Hotch sensed that. He knew there was something off about her story, but didn't have the evidence to prove it. I wish the show had not essentially turned Elle into an impulsive vigilante killer to write her off.

Okay, so one more thing, lol.

 

Re - Elle, who I can't not feel for, because it was Gideon's fault that she was shot and it always makes me sad that she takes it out on Hotch instead, I recently saw the episode where she shoots William Lee on Netflix, and he was gloating because her actions had resulted in the undercover op being blown, which resulted in his release because they couldn't hold him. Before she gets to the 'Hey, Lee', thing, he says, "You've made a lot of women very happy." So he was basically rubbing it in her face that her screw-up meant he was going to do it again, and hey, he probably has at least one get out of jail free card because of the cops jumping too soon, once again due to her screw up. So here's angry, traumatized Elle, who never really got closure about her near-murder at the hands of  Randall Garner (what I hear as bitterness in her 'Here's to winning' makes me hurt for her) faced with the likely reality that this guy is going to rape again, only this time it's her fault, as she (incorrectly) thinks her being shot is Hotch's fault.

 

 

Similarly, with Hotch, while he beat the life out of Foyet, that I could actually see/accept as both self-defence and the defence of Jack (I'm not saying I liked the storyline, because it was pure hollywood in having a serial killer target the FBI in such a personal manner, but that may be a separate UO). But at the same time, it was investigated by Strauss and whatever the FBI version of Internal Affairs is. Yes, cleared because he is the main lead, but at the same time he wasn't just getting patted on the back and a key to the city.

 

 

About Hotch, I think it's worth noting that it's the much more level-headed Rossi who points out that Aaron's guilt over Foyet's murders in the present, as when he killed those people on the bus, is his ego talking. And when I say level-headed, that's not a slap towards Hotch but towards Gideon, because I always wonder what Jason would have thought of Foyet in light of his experiences with Frank. Like Elle, Hotch returns to the field almost immediately after being ambushed and stabbed in his apartment, resulting in Haley and Jack being driven into hiding to keep them safe. Even now, it puzzles me as to why no one drew the comparison at the time, especially Reid, who was the only one who really reached out to Elle after she nearly died.  They both watched her fall apart, shouldn't there have been a lesson in there somewhere?

 

All of this is to say that I don't fault either Hotch or Elle as much as I most likely should, since his having lost Haley and her implosion and departure seems like enough of a price to pay. And now I really will be quiet. :-)

[normasm]

I'm gonna say this one last thing, and then I'll be quiet. :-P

 

The thing is, you did see that on this show. Elle decided that William Lee needed to die, and so she shot and killed him. Later on, Hotch beat George Foyet to death with his fists to protect Jack and avenge Haley's murder. Was it revenge and/or taking things into their own hands? Sure, maybe. But given the respective situations, I fault them less than perhaps I should. Neither of these guys were Nathan Harris, who wanted to stop before he started, and I doubt that they'd have martyred themselves as Sarah Jean did. Sometimes you just have to stop the infection before it spreads. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying I understand.

You don't have to be quiet, i'm enjoying this conversation with all involved. But to your point about Elle and Hotch going outside the law, Elle was in a PTSD-related break when she stalked and killed Lee. That doesn't excuse what she did, but she wasn't going rogue or taking the law into her hands, IMO. In her inflamed mind, she was stopping a killer.

 

Hotch was not at all going rogue. Remember that Foyet was in his house, and had just killed Hayley. Hotch was terrified that his son was butchered like his wife was, and when he got Foyet "down," he beat him to death because those were the weapons he had, and he wasn't about to go look for a gun. It wasn't revenge it was terror, and again, in the horror of the moment, he was stopping a killer. If he had shot Foyet and killed him, we wouldn't blink an eye, but the visceral reaction to someone beating someone to death with bare hands makes it feel different, personal, vengeful. But to me, he used the weapon at hand to stop this killer.

[SSAHotchner]

Again, I'm not a fan of Riding the Lightning, and I can't stand Mandy's performance in it. But what Sarah Jean was protecting her son from was not only what others might do or say to him. She was protecting him from the knowledge that his parents were killers. He had come to recognize the adoptive parents as his family. I do think there's nobility in her protecting her son that way and allowing him to live a normal life. I just don't care for the episode or the characters, and it's one of the episodes where I find Mandy's mugging really annoying. This painting of Gideon as so much more sympathetic and empathetic than the rest of the team is similar to the way the current writers try to manipulate the viewers opinions of the characters these days. But the scripts in the early seasons were so much better that you could give the writers a pass on this kind of thing. All of the team were written so much better in those days, so much more distinctive. But I am glad to find that I'm not alone in not loving this episode.

[SSAHotchner]

Okay, so one more thing, lol.

 

Re - Elle, who I can't not feel for, because it was Gideon's fault that she was shot and it always makes me sad that she takes it out on Hotch instead, I recently saw the episode where she shoots William Lee on Netflix, and he was gloating because her actions had resulted in the undercover op being blown, which resulted in his release because they couldn't hold him. Before she gets to the 'Hey, Lee', thing, he says, "You've made a lot of women very happy." So he was basically rubbing it in her face that her screw-up meant he was going to do it again, and hey, he probably has at least one get out of jail free card because of the cops jumping too soon, once again due to her screw up. So here's angry, traumatized Elle, who never really got closure about her near-murder at the hands of  Randall Garner (what I hear as bitterness in her 'Here's to winning' makes me hurt for her) faced with the likely reality that this guy is going to rape again, only this time it's her fault, as she (incorrectly) thinks her being shot is Hotch's fault.

 

 

 

About Hotch, I think it's worth noting that it's the much more level-headed Rossi who points out that Aaron's guilt over Foyet's murders in the present, as when he killed those people on the bus, is his ego talking. And when I say level-headed, that's not a slap towards Hotch but towards Gideon, because I always wonder what Jason would have thought of Foyet in light of his experiences with Frank. Like Elle, Hotch returns to the field almost immediately after being ambushed and stabbed in his apartment, resulting in Haley and Jack being driven into hiding to keep them safe. Even now, it puzzles me as to why no one drew the comparison at the time, especially Reid, who was the only one who really reached out to Elle after she nearly died.  They both watched her fall apart, shouldn't there have been a lesson in there somewhere?

 

All of this is to say that I don't fault either Hotch or Elle as much as I most likely should, since his having lost Haley and her implosion and departure seems like enough of a price to pay. And now I really will be quiet. :-)

Yes, and Rossi even mentioned Gideon to Hotch. He said something like, "Do you want to go on blaming yourself, like Gideon." I always kind of enjoyed that because that tortured soul element of Gideon's character got on my nerves.

[zannej]

Just a few comments:

Internal Affairs for FBI (and federal LEOs) is called Office of the Inspector General (OIG). 

While I can understand Elle's killing of Lee, I can't condone it. I always wondered why they didn't just get DNA or something. Didn't at least one of the victims have his DNA? He was trying to get women pregnant so he wasn't using a condom. They could have busted him on that.

I do think that it was a mistake to have Elle as the bait when it was sort of clear that she wasn't quite ready for it.

 

As for Hotch killing Foyet, that was completely justified. Not only had this man knife-raped Hotch, he'd tortured and murdered multiple people (including Hotch's US Marshall friend), escaped from confinement, survived being shot because of a kevlar vest, murdered the woman Hotch loved, promised to murder Hotch's son, and been having a knock-down drag-out fight in which Hotch was struck in the head at least once. Hotch probably had a concussion and was fighting for his life and family. He essentially snapped, but it would be a case of justifiable homicide. He KNEW that Foyet would have killed him and Jack if he allowed him to live. I also think he was going through PTSD and was a bit out of his mind-- hence Morgan had to pull him off of Foyet's body.

 

In 25 to Life, I'd like to add that Morgan was guilty of assault and battery. Even if you don't harm someone, if you grab them or even touch them without their permission it can be considered a crime. Morgan trespassed, made accusations without proof, and then grabbed the suspect. The fact that the police arrested the guy really boggled me because, as ForeverAlone said, there was absolutely no legal justification for any of it.

 

I also have to agree with whoever said that Callahan should be kept OUT of the loop about Reid's drug problem. Personally, I wish that there had been a time when the team was trying to discuss something about it in veiled terms and have Rossi trying to figure it out, but I think they just had his discover/realization happen off screen. I think that was a missed opportunity because I would have loved to have seen his reaction. On one hand, I think it would be hard for him to believe it, but on the other, he would realize it was probably from the PTSD after what Reid went through.

 

I actually would not mind if Callahan found out about Reid being tortured and got to react to it. I think it would help her understand him more, and it would be interesting to see how it gets talked about and how other people react. 

[SparedTurkey]

Zannej - thanks for the FBI IA/OIG explanation - I'm not from the USA, and while I know I could google, and probably should have, I feel like if the show isn't going to go into detail well....(they probably would have in an earlier season ;) ! )

 

Re: Hotch - I think there is a crucial difference when he killed Foyet, namely that it wasn't after the bus shooting, or after the knife attack. If it was after either of those, I would have side-eyed the show if Hotch had remained. I would have classed it as similar to Elle's shooting of the rapist (however justified, or right it may be to prevent a further killing) as being wrong and illegal.

But, Hotch killed Foyet because Foyet had just killed Hayley and was lying in wait for Hotch (attacking first) and I assume was looking for Jack before Hotch arrived. I purely base my opinion of Hotch's actions on that episode. While I would have preferred Hotch beating Foyet unconsious, for no other reason than it would put him in jail for the rest of his life (which is the punishment I agree with, over the death penalty) I am okay with it because it was self-defence/protection of a third party. Although Hotch and Foyet had a history that no doubt had an impact, I think in the circumstances that impact would have been tiny.  (And I agree that beating someone to death seems incredibly personal/vengeful but it was all Hotch had left)

 

Conversely, while I agree with Cobalt Stargazer that Elle was shot because of Gideon (who never assumed responsibility) and had a severe level of PTSD, so I can understand why she shot him - particularly in light of him taunting her - but I can't accept/agree with it. There was a large degree of premeditation that shows she knew what she did was wrong but did it anyway. I get that she was abused, assaulted and nearly murdered, and didn't want anyone else to go through a similar experience, but at the end of the day, it wasn't self-defence it was murder. And that is why I am okay with Hotch killing Foyet, okay will Elle being removed from the BAU/FBI and not okay with Gideon.

 

I just hate hate hate '25 to Life'. I feel like that was the first episode of the series that I just cannot watch. I also thought it did Morgan a huge disservice, and I don't even like him. I'm sure this will shock everyone, but Erica Messer wrote it, so maybe it was a sign of things to come (and yet EM wrote one of my favourite Alias episode ever, with Deborah J. Fisher).

 

Come season 5 - I thought Morgan was way too arrogant, pre/during/post taking over unit chief position, and I didn't like him with anyone, except Hotch. I didn't think he worked well with anyone on the team unless he was in charge, except maybe Garcia. It seemed like he got too big for his britches.

[ForeverAlone]

The cops did have the DNA from the rapist on file. HOWEVER, they were not able to take his DNA when they took him into custody, and this is where Elle screwed up. She panicked and confronted him, but there was no probable cause to arrest him at that time, so they couldn't book him or take a DNA sample. All Elle had to do was get in her car and drive away. Once Lee broke into her house like all the other victims, they could have arrested him and taken his DNA after the arrest and then they would have linked him to all the rapes. Elle should have been able to hold it together for that very short period of time, BUT, Hotch and Gideon were at greater fault for even putting her in that situation. They either had no clue she was struggling with PTSD, or they figured she could manage this one operation. Season two was not a good year for the team leaders to help their hurting subordinates. Both Elle and Reid were allowed to flail on their own, even when struggling with serious PTSD, and their bosses seemingly didn't do anything for them. Reid did reach out to Elle, but it was too late by that point. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Conversely, while I agree with Cobalt Stargazer that Elle was shot because of Gideon (who never assumed responsibility) and had a severe level of PTSD, so I can understand why she shot him - particularly in light of him taunting her - but I can't accept/agree with it. There was a large degree of premeditation that shows she knew what she did was wrong but did it anyway. I get that she was abused, assaulted and nearly murdered, and didn't want anyone else to go through a similar experience, but at the end of the day, it wasn't self-defence it was murder. And that is why I am okay with Hotch killing Foyet, okay will Elle being removed from the BAU/FBI and not okay with Gideon.

I'm gonna do everybody a big solid right now and confine my response to the realm of fiction, because if I get into why the rights of a guy like William Lee wouldn't matter to me in real life, this post will be eight thousand pages long, and ain't nobody got time for that. :-)

 

What I will say as gently as I know how is that IMO in the hands of different writers, the character would have been that most accursed (by me, at least) of all fictional creations, the Bad Boy Woobie. The groundwork was already in place,(rapist, thinks he's doing women a favor, etc) and had it gone the other way Elle probably would have fallen in love with him instead of shooting him. Because there's nothing more entertaining and not at all cliched than a bad man redeemed by the love of a good woman. Given the choice between the two scenarios, I'll take her shooting him every time. Yes, its a weird issue to have, but there you are.

[zannej]

I've seen shows written by people in the US who don't realize that FBI has OIG and they say "internal affairs". IIRC they have never mentioned OIG on CM. 

 

Interesting point about the "bad boy woobie". Lee was what cops refer to as "a gentleman rapist". He imagined himself as being romantic and while he wanted the power, he also seemed to be deluded enough to think he was being nice to them and helping them. He was disturbed, but I think he still deep down know that what he did was wrong. I actually don't think he was taunting Elle. I think he genuinely thought that she helped him on purpose because he was delusional. I almost expected him to try to make a move toward her.

 

When Hotch was beating Foyet, didn't they show flashes of Foyet stabbing him? I think it was actually on his mind as well. Unless it was just to juxtapose the violence. I think Foyet being killed was probably the better way for it to end because it would eliminate the chance of him escaping again.

[Calamity Jane]

I saw Mandy Patinkin playing Che in Evita waaaay back in 1979 and have been a fan ever since.  Yentl, Princess Bride, Chicago Hope, Criminal Minds -- whatever. (Homeland is the only I haven't watched because I don't have the channel and haven't sought it out online.)   He's over the top, no doubt of that, but always gets and holds my interest.  

[normasm]

I'm gonna do everybody a big solid right now and confine my response to the realm of fiction, because if I get into why the rights of a guy like William Lee wouldn't matter to me in real life, this post will be eight thousand pages long, and ain't nobody got time for that. :-)

 

What I will say as gently as I know how is that IMO in the hands of different writers, the character would have been that most accursed (by me, at least) of all fictional creations, the Bad Boy Woobie. The groundwork was already in place,(rapist, thinks he's doing women a favor, etc) and had it gone the other way Elle probably would have fallen in love with him instead of shooting him. Because there's nothing more entertaining and not at all cliched than a bad man redeemed by the love of a good woman. Given the choice between the two scenarios, I'll take her shooting him every time. Yes, its a weird issue to have, but there you are.

Oh, I so agree about the rank Bad Boy Woobie. The worst example I can think of was the original novels of Thomas Harris that included the Silence of the Lambs (a wonderful book and movie) that the author eviscerated (pun intended) with the novel Hannibal. Ugh, ugh, ugh. Hate, hate, hate.

[SparedTurkey]

 

What I will say as gently as I know how is that IMO in the hands of different writers, the character would have been that most accursed (by me, at least) of all fictional creations, the Bad Boy Woobie. The groundwork was already in place,(rapist, thinks he's doing women a favor, etc) and had it gone the other way Elle probably would have fallen in love with him instead of shooting him. Because there's nothing more entertaining and not at all cliched than a bad man redeemed by the love of a good woman. Given the choice between the two scenarios, I'll take her shooting him every time. Yes, its a weird issue to have, but there you are.

Very true - and I would take a shooting any time. Don't get me wrong, I think the story was well done, well acted and served the basic point of getting rid of Elle. (Although, I do think that it was a slight misfire if only because it meant Elle could never come back, and I would have liked to see Elle and Prentiss team up).

 

And I am happy Foyet died, rather than being captured, as it spared us from numerous episodes where he escapes/taunts Hotch etc. which I could see happening conveniently around the time of sweeps and/or season premieres/endings.

[zannej]

I think Foyet's death also gave Hotch some closure because if he'd lived, there would always be this fear that he might escape.

[millennium]

Admittedly, my watching during the last few seasons has trailed off, but the other night I caught an episode so Edvard-Munch-Screamingly bad that I just had to come here and ask how anyone can champion this show anymore.

 

I'm talking about the episode called "The Lesson" starring Brad Dourif.   After I complained about the unlikely nature of Criminal Minds plots, somebody upthread admonished me that Criminal Minds cases are based on the work of real profilers and that many of the more absurd storylines are in fact the kind of things that profilers see.

 

But come on.   A human puppet show?   Please, someone, direct me to the real life counterpart -- or something even remotely similar -- of this stupid, stupid storyline that felt like a script rejected from the old TV series Friday the Thirteenth.   Where's Roby when you need her?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

But come on.   A human puppet show?   Please, someone, direct me to the real life counterpart -- or something even remotely similar -- of this stupid, stupid storyline that felt like a script rejected from the old TV series Friday the Thirteenth.   Where's Roby when you need her?

 

millennium, I actually Googled "human puppet show serial killers", because once again its almost five AM and I can't sleep worth a damn. Admittedly the only things I came up with that were similar were links to the wiki about The Lesson and an IMDB entry for something called Cassadaga, a movie about a woman who resurrects a ghost of someone who was murdered by a serial killer that turned his victims into marionettes. So yes, the idea for the episode was most likely wholly rooted in fiction. And was gross to boot. I've actually dislocated my shoulder and blown my knee out, and lemme tell ya, those are noises I never want to hear again.

 

On the other hand, John Wayne Gacy was known to paint portraits of clowns, which everyone who has ever seen It know are creepy, and Ed Gein became notorious after authorities discovered he was making souvenirs out of the bodies he dug up from a local graveyard. Gein's case influenced the creation of several fictional killers - Norman Bates, Leatherface, and Silence of the Lambs' Buffalo Bill. So while Adam Rain was obviously a creation cut from whole cloth, as a precedent it isn't entirely unheard of for real murderers to be fictionalized for the purpose of entertainment.

[millennium]

I have no problem with entertainment, as long as it stays within the realm of the probable.   Particularly on a show that purports to exemplify a real unit in the FBI (versus, say, the office of the X-Files).

 

The problem Criminal Minds has is that its run its course.   It has nothing new to say about serial killers, so instead we get human marionettes.   Soft-core torture porn.

 

Mandy Patinkin called it years ago.

Edited October 4, 2014 by millennium

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Mandy Patinkin called it years ago.

 

I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but IMO Mandy Patinkin is a self-important, self-aggrandizing, self-righteous blowhard, and if he hates the show so much why is he still talking about it after all this time? Can't he be satisfied with just being away from it, particularly in light of his gig on Homeland? Let him have his terrorists and adulterers with unmedicated psychological disorders if he thinks they're so superior. The only reason I can still enjoy him in The Princess Bride is because his character has an actual reason to be angsty.

[millennium]

I thought Mandy Patinkin was quite good in Criminal Minds.   He brought a sense of gravitas to the show.   I suspect that if he were still on board, the human marionettes would still be filed under "You Can't Possibly Be Serious."

[zannej]

millenium, in the earlier seasons the stories and killers were less preposterous. The writer of The Lesson, Janine Barrois, is known for some of the most absurd stories and characters on the show. She is one of my least favorites and turns out stuff that defies suspension of disbelief and has people behave in ways that don't ring true. The show has declined in quality after season 4, but I still stick around because I like Reid and Hotch and I keep hoping that I'll still catch a glimmer of the show's former greatness.

 

I have to agree with Cobalt Stargazer about Mandy. The sad thing is, at the time he made the statements about the show and the gruesomeness, it wasn't even that bad. It didn't start having the torture porn until around season 5 (just a tad) and then really picked it up in season 6 where the majority of the episodes showed the unsub up front. If you watch the first 4 seasons, the unsubs are shown early in less than 50% of the episodes. From season 5 onward it was more than 50% and the frequency of it increased each season. Since they were showing unsubs early, they were giving them more screentime and that meant more torture porn and gore. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I thought Mandy Patinkin was quite good in Criminal Minds.  

 

Just to be clear, I can still enjoy Jason Gideon to a point, but that's only by putting aside the fact that I think Mandy is kind of a putz that needs to shut his face about the show. I have the same issue with Daniel Day-Lewis, who objectively I think is talented, but his special snowflake approach to acting makes my eyeballs itch. So it's the 'tude I can do without, not that I don't think they can act.

[ForeverAlone]

For me it is Mandy's hypocrisy. He goes on and on about how violent and depraved Criminal Minds is, all the while he is one of the stars of Homeland. Now make no mistake, I like Homeland (yes, even when it is being ridiculous) and Mandy's character is my favorite, but that show is way more violent than Criminal Minds. Yeah Criminal Minds is about serial killers, but since it is network TV, there is a limit to how much violence they can actually show, and this was particularly true in the years Mandy was on the show. Whereas Homeland is on cable so they can show all the graphic violence they want, and they do.Is graphic violence okay when they are just torturing suspected terrorists? I would guess Mandy would say yes. If he would just keep his mouth shut, I wouldn't have a problem. He acted extremely unprofessionally by suddenly quitting the way he did, but it was seven years ago and the show has done just fine without him.

[Guest]

I've never taken any of Patinkin's comments about why he left seriously, even at the time.  My POV is that every ten years or so he signs up as the lead of a TV show and a couple season in realizes that he hates the grind of it and quits.  But he needs a good and noble excuse to leave.  So with Chicago Hope, it was for his family.  With Criminal Minds his kids were adults, so he derided the depiction of violence on television.  That he thought the show was going to be something different is ridiculous.  I'd like to know what he thought it would be.

 

He's probably doing fine with Homeland because he's not the lead and the seasons are shorter. 

[Wilowy]

I thought Mandy Patinkin was quite good in Criminal Minds.   He brought a sense of gravitas to the show.   I suspect that if he were still on board, the human marionettes would still be filed under "You Can't Possibly Be Serious."

 

Matthew directed that episode, The Lesson, millennium. His are usually far more fanciful and 'spooky campfire story' than anything rooted in fact. His other one that season, Alchemy, actually had the walls sucking people in. 

[SSAHotchner]

Millennium, there have been some horrible episodes from season 6 on. I'm watching mostly out of habit these days, but deep inside I keep hoping it will return to the show I once loved. Every now and then there's a good episode, but I mostly end up being mad at myself for hoping.

[SSAHotchner]

Is this opinion unpopular? I don't know. It's an opinion?

 

Anyway, while I agree this show SHOULD be about the hows and the whys of a serial killer who does depraved things, I feel the show is just SHOWING me depraved things over and over and over, more and more unsub, less and less PROFILING, which is what the series is supposed to be about. So what I feel is that they're just showing me torture pron for the sake of it, without giving me the extensive psychological profile. 

 

The thing where each of them delivers a line that has nothing at all to do with their expertise, is also hella annoying and not at all realistic. They used to all have specialties and speak to it. Now they're just one big blob. Say what you will about Mandy, but when Gideon led them, you could see he was a man who was tortured. Who wanted to get to the bottom of why the killer did what he/she did. 

 

Now it's just like this HUGE jump to conclusion, followed by Garcia's magical "deus ex machina." 

SweetTooth, I wish I could like this a thousand times!!! This is exactly the way I feel about what has happened to Criminal Minds.

[millennium]

I accidentally DVR'ed a new episode of Criminal Minds the other night (it was on right after Survivor, I think), so I decided to give it a try.

 

 It was the introduction of Jennifer Love Hewitt.   I lasted about 15 minutes.   I suffered through Hewitt's introduction (not feeling the Love, btw -- she's ALL wrong), but then watched as a seemingly normal guy sends his tykes off to school, waits until they're safely on the bus, and then goes downstairs to drool over the collection of dismembered body parts he keeps in a foot locker (which I suppose is funny in its own way, considering the appendage he took out to fondle was, in fact, a foot). 

 

The show is veering into a gory variety of camp now.   

 

I had to shake my head at one of the reasons mentioned for the hiring of Hewitt's character as the latest addition to the BAU: "Emily didn't want to come back."

 

I guess Emily has been watching the show too.

Edited October 14, 2014 by millennium

[zannej]

I couldn't help but wonder what the stuff the guy put on the limbs to preserve them would do to living human tissue. Would it have been bad for his skin? Or toxic somehow? Or caused any itching, burning, or other issues? I don't remember what they said it was that was used.

[alexvillage]

 

 

"Emily didn't want to come back."

I guess Emily has been watching the show too.

I watched the beginning of the episode too and snarked right after Garcia said that, followed by " we are family!"

Emily does not want to come back because of you, Garcia, you annoying egomaniac!

[zannej]

I think it would be interesting if they revealed that Emily actually had a love life over in London and that she was much happier there rather than just "she doesn't want to come back" with no explanation. They wouldn't have to create any drama about it or anything, just hint at it or something.

[Old Dog]

I was amused by the "Emily doesn't want to come back" line. They are obviously getting fed up with the continual requests for Paget to come back and wanted to give a clear message.

[normasm]

I like the idea, zannej. They could simply say, Emily's seriously dating this guy, or, really they wouldn't have to be gender-specific, they could just say, "It sounds like Miss Prentiss has found someone!" "Yeah, she sounds so happy!" "Good for her!"

[millennium]

Bad idea, though, to invoke the ghost of one of the show's most popular characters a moment before you force a shabby substitute down the viewers' throats.

[Knittzu]

HI all! I started watching this show when it began steaming on Netflix, and watched all nine seasons over the summer/fall — so, my experience with this show is very different from those of you who watched it week by week, year after year. I was careful not to read anything about the show while watching so I’m probably not the best judge of what is or isn’t an unpopular opinion. And I have to admit, some of things I’ve read in the past week (once I finished S9) have really surprised me.

 

While watching, I assumed that Hotch and Rossi were the main characters and Reid the most popular. But as the seasons progressed and Hotch/Rossi/Reid all but vanished into the background, it became clear that the writers’ favorites are JJ, Morgan, and Garcia — which is utterly puzzling to me. I can only assume it’s because I’ve done a critical misread and they are actually the fandom’s favorites? Having so completely missed the fandom’s hierarchy of preferred characters, the rest of my Unpopular Opinions might be similarly way, way off. But regardless, here goes!

 

1) Beth. I was kind of shocked by how much people seem to hate her. I think she’s had maybe 15 minutes of screen time? I don't think I could pick her out of a lineup if my life depended on it. I see people saying things like “Hotch would NEVER choose someone like her,” which frankly puzzles me. How could we know what Hotch would or wouldn’t do? He’s barely on this show anymore. I don’t feel like I know him any better now that I did in S1, which makes me sad because the actor is fantastic and I feel like there’s a lot of unexplored depth to Hotch. I have no idea why he’s been pushed to the background in favor of Morgan/JJ/Garcia.

 

2) I don’t enjoy the episodes where the writers are twisting themselves into knots trying to make the unsub sympathetic. It rarely works with me anyhow, because as soon as he or she starts killing, I don’t give half a shit about their Tragic Past. I’m really not interested in the unsub — I watch this show for the team and wish the writers would have devoted more time and care to writing their main characters consistently and following through on the aftermaths of their various traumas.

 

3) I liked Gideon a lot, but wasn't the least surprised by the stunt MP pulled. That’s classic MP. When you start watching a show he’s in, you know there’s a damn good chance he’s going to bail. I WAS surprised by him returning many years later to badmouth the show and accuse it of being misogynistic, violent, etc. That’s utterly laughable to me considering his role on Homeland — a show that’s not only violent and misogynistic, but also deeply racist. I think he’s just bitter about the fact that CM didn’t fall into ruins once he departed. He's very talented, but his enormous ego is a huge turn-off to me. 

 

4) I don’t buy Morgan as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I don’t know if it’s the writing, or the acting, or maybe the fact that I’ve never warmed up to Morgan as a character, but his backstory never rang true to me. I don’t enjoy the Morgan-centric episodes at all.

 

5) As a long-time fic writer, I’m endlessly amazed by the JJ creation. If she were written by some random unpaid fic writer, said writer would be mocked and ridiculed for creating the ultimate Mary Sue. She’s flawlessly beautiful! Her skills are desired by every level of the FBI and beyond!! She was selected to personally take down Bin Laden! She comes with the standard-issue tragic Mary Sue background, but she’s risen above it to be the most awesome profiler, who has the best shot, and can take down bad guys single-handedly after hours of torture. She's just.that.good.

 

Mind, I’m not looking for a fight with JJ’s fans. If people love her character, I’m happy for them. For me, she’s a show-ruiner. I’ve disliked JJ 2.0 so much that I can barely stand to watch any scene with her in it — but at the same time, I have to admit a certain level of fascination with this train-wreck. As I said, if it were an unpaid fic writer shoving this sort of character at their audience, they’d be met with universal derision. Why is it okay coming from highly paid professionals?

 

6) I don’t know anything about any of the actors and don’t want to. I learned my lesson with other shows with characters that I’ve adored… and then found that the actors are arrogant jerks, snobs, racists, etc. All the actors on CM might \be amazing people, but I’d rather only know them as the characters they play. I don’t even like seeing OOC photos of them.

 

7) The kids. I know, they’re just kids, but they are also both terrible actors. I don’t find it even remotely adorable that AJ’s kid plays JJ’s son — to me, it’s just another sickeningly ingredient in her Mary-Sue soup.

 

8) I’m so, so tired of the “sexy” Garcia/Morgan talk and especially hate him calling her “baby girl” but for some reason, Morgan calling Reid “pretty boy” doesn't bother me at all. Maybe because Reid often seems so alone and it’s nice when we get a rare glimpse of a “family member” showing him a touch of warmth.

 

9) I don’t think this show is remotely realistic. In fact, while watching seasons 1-9, I decided it was all taking place in an alternative universe. In real life, most murders are the culmination of domestic violence or drug/gang related. Yes, there are serial killers out there, but they aren't caught easily and often remain at large for years if not decades because they target society's least-valued and most vulnerable members. The idea that there are dozens and dozens of interesting, creative killers wandering around this country is strictly AU material for me… so I’ve been surprised to read here, there, and everywhere that many fans find this show “realistic.” And don’t even get me started on the fact that so many unsubs turn out to be female (when in real life, female spree/serial killers are incredibly rare.)

 

10) This is probably the most unpopular of my opinions, but: I want my favorite character, Reid, to get a new job. Of course that would mean Reid leaving the show (and me no longer watching it) but still. I hate what this job has done to him, how many losses he’s endured and with so little support. A job where you are regularly shot, tortured, poisoned, and lose the people you love is a shitty job, and the “family” of this team doesn't even come close to making up for his various heartbreaks. Also, what sort of “family” thinks it’s okay to mock, lie to, and roll their eyes at their most vulnerable member?

 

I want Reid to have a job where he is valued and respected. I want him in a place where his life isn’t in danger and he isn’t constantly losing the people he loves. I don’t think the BAU is a good place for him — mentally, physically, or emotionally. I think he deserves better. (For the matter, I think they ALL deserve better. Except JJ. Super!Ninja!JJ can stay right where she is, because clearly she’s a cyborg who was specifically programmed for this gig.)

 

11) I’ve grown to absolutely hate Garcia’s computer “skills.” Maybe a decade ago I could have bought that some “computer genius” could go tippity-tippity-tap on a keyboard and uncover all sorts of obscure, confidential information about random citizens, but in 2014 it seems absolutely absurd. Couple the silliness of her skill set with her 40-going-on-fourteen personality and I can barely stand to watch her scenes anymore.

 

12) While I thought the earlier seasons/episodes were better in terms of character consistency, I found them incredibly predictable. I could usually pick out the unsub ten minutes into the show. Plus, I don’t care about the unsub. I’d rather watch the team dynamics and get to know our main characters. The less unsub, the better. I feel like the writers of this show have wasted so much potential, especially with Reid and Hotch.

 

 

[missmycat]

HI all! I started watching this show when it began steaming on Netflix, and watched all nine seasons over the summer/fall — so, my experience with this show is very different from those of you who watched it week by week, year after year. I was careful not to read anything about the show while watching so I’m probably not the best judge of what is or isn’t an unpopular opinion. And I have to admit, some of things I’ve read in the past week (once I finished S9) have really surprised me.

 

While watching, I assumed that Hotch and Rossi were the main characters and Reid the most popular. But as the seasons progressed and Hotch/Rossi/Reid all but vanished into the background, it became clear that the writers’ favorites are JJ, Morgan, and Garcia — which is utterly puzzling to me. I can only assume it’s because I’ve done a critical misread and they are actually the fandom’s favorites? Having so completely missed the fandom’s hierarchy of preferred characters, the rest of my Unpopular Opinions might be similarly way, way off. But regardless, here goes!

 

1) Beth. I was kind of shocked by how much people seem to hate her. I think she’s had maybe 15 minutes of screen time? I don't think I could pick her out of a lineup if my life depended on it. I see people saying things like “Hotch would NEVER choose someone like her,” which frankly puzzles me. How could we know what Hotch would or wouldn’t do? He’s barely on this show anymore. I don’t feel like I know him any better now that I did in S1, which makes me sad because the actor is fantastic and I feel like there’s a lot of unexplored depth to Hotch. I have no idea why he’s been pushed to the background in favor of Morgan/JJ/Garcia.

 

2) I don’t enjoy the episodes where the writers are twisting themselves into knots trying to make the unsub sympathetic. It rarely works with me anyhow, because as soon as he or she starts killing, I don’t give half a shit about their Tragic Past. I’m really not interested in the unsub — I watch this show for the team and wish the writers would have devoted more time and care to writing their main characters consistently and following through on the aftermaths of their various traumas.

 

3) I liked Gideon a lot, but wasn't the least surprised by the stunt MP pulled. That’s classic MP. When you start watching a show he’s in, you know there’s a damn good chance he’s going to bail. I WAS surprised by him returning many years later to badmouth the show and accuse it of being misogynistic, violent, etc. That’s utterly laughable to me considering his role on Homeland — a show that’s not only violent and misogynistic, but also deeply racist. I think he’s just bitter about the fact that CM didn’t fall into ruins once he departed. He's very talented, but his enormous ego is a huge turn-off to me. 

 

4) I don’t buy Morgan as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I don’t know if it’s the writing, or the acting, or maybe the fact that I’ve never warmed up to Morgan as a character, but his backstory never rang true to me. I don’t enjoy the Morgan-centric episodes at all.

 

5) As a long-time fic writer, I’m endlessly amazed by the JJ creation. If she were written by some random unpaid fic writer, said writer would be mocked and ridiculed for creating the ultimate Mary Sue. She’s flawlessly beautiful! Her skills are desired by every level of the FBI and beyond!! She was selected to personally take down Bin Laden! She comes with the standard-issue tragic Mary Sue background, but she’s risen above it to be the most awesome profiler, who has the best shot, and can take down bad guys single-handedly after hours of torture. She's just.that.good.

 

Mind, I’m not looking for a fight with JJ’s fans. If people love her character, I’m happy for them. For me, she’s a show-ruiner. I’ve disliked JJ 2.0 so much that I can barely stand to watch any scene with her in it — but at the same time, I have to admit a certain level of fascination with this train-wreck. As I said, if it were an unpaid fic writer shoving this sort of character at their audience, they’d be met with universal derision. Why is it okay coming from highly paid professionals?

 

6) I don’t know anything about any of the actors and don’t want to. I learned my lesson with other shows with characters that I’ve adored… and then found that the actors are arrogant jerks, snobs, racists, etc. All the actors on CM might \be amazing people, but I’d rather only know them as the characters they play. I don’t even like seeing OOC photos of them.

 

7) The kids. I know, they’re just kids, but they are also both terrible actors. I don’t find it even remotely adorable that AJ’s kid plays JJ’s son — to me, it’s just another sickeningly ingredient in her Mary-Sue soup.

 

8) I’m so, so tired of the “sexy” Garcia/Morgan talk and especially hate him calling her “baby girl” but for some reason, Morgan calling Reid “pretty boy” doesn't bother me at all. Maybe because Reid often seems so alone and it’s nice when we get a rare glimpse of a “family member” showing him a touch of warmth.

 

9) I don’t think this show is remotely realistic. In fact, while watching seasons 1-9, I decided it was all taking place in an alternative universe. In real life, most murders are the culmination of domestic violence or drug/gang related. Yes, there are serial killers out there, but they aren't caught easily and often remain at large for years if not decades because they target society's least-valued and most vulnerable members. The idea that there are dozens and dozens of interesting, creative killers wandering around this country is strictly AU material for me… so I’ve been surprised to read here, there, and everywhere that many fans find this show “realistic.” And don’t even get me started on the fact that so many unsubs turn out to be female (when in real life, female spree/serial killers are incredibly rare.)

 

10) This is probably the most unpopular of my opinions, but: I want my favorite character, Reid, to get a new job. Of course that would mean Reid leaving the show (and me no longer watching it) but still. I hate what this job has done to him, how many losses he’s endured and with so little support. A job where you are regularly shot, tortured, poisoned, and lose the people you love is a shitty job, and the “family” of this team doesn't even come close to making up for his various heartbreaks. Also, what sort of “family” thinks it’s okay to mock, lie to, and roll their eyes at their most vulnerable member?

 

I want Reid to have a job where he is valued and respected. I want him in a place where his life isn’t in danger and he isn’t constantly losing the people he loves. I don’t think the BAU is a good place for him — mentally, physically, or emotionally. I think he deserves better. (For the matter, I think they ALL deserve better. Except JJ. Super!Ninja!JJ can stay right where she is, because clearly she’s a cyborg who was specifically programmed for this gig.)

 

11) I’ve grown to absolutely hate Garcia’s computer “skills.” Maybe a decade ago I could have bought that some “computer genius” could go tippity-tippity-tap on a keyboard and uncover all sorts of obscure, confidential information about random citizens, but in 2014 it seems absolutely absurd. Couple the silliness of her skill set with her 40-going-on-fourteen personality and I can barely stand to watch her scenes anymore.

 

12) While I thought the earlier seasons/episodes were better in terms of character consistency, I found them incredibly predictable. I could usually pick out the unsub ten minutes into the show. Plus, I don’t care about the unsub. I’d rather watch the team dynamics and get to know our main characters. The less unsub, the better. I feel like the writers of this show have wasted so much potential, especially with Reid and Hotch.

I have to say I agree with just about everything you posted here, but it's late so I'm only going to offer my opinion on that one point you bought up.First of all let me assure you that you did not misread anything.The reason they ended up getting shoved in the background isn't due so much to them not being favorites of the writers as it is the woman who now runs the show Erica Messer happens to like them the least. Her favorites are Garcia, Morgan and JJ whom I often refer to as Messer's "Golden Girl".

 

When you get a chance check out Erica Messer's solo episodes, for the most part you will find that there is an abundance of Morgan and very little Reid.It pretty much mirrors the way she started running the show. Things are a bit better, but it took a few season of Reid fans screaming their heads off for her to finally start giving him some decent screen time.Even so Reid didn't even get a centric episode last season, but Garcia who is actually only suppose to be a part time character was given this huge centric episode.

 

ETA: Trust me, your number 10 is not as unpopular as you may think it is.  

Edited October 19, 2014 by missmycat

[Old Dog]

Hi Knitzu

What a great piece on your view of the show. I have been told many times that it's because I am a long time fan that I don't like the way the show is going and I can't take change - and yet here you are new to the show identifying all the things I hate about where the showrunner has taken the show. My own view is that the show's production spends far too long on Twitter and tumblr in their downtime and listen to all the young  crazies on there who like the comic book characters of JJ and Garcia. Those of us who love the intelligent profiling and team dynamics in solving cases are frankly horrified at JJ, Morgan and Garcia being shoved to the fore and the cases solved with Garcia's magic computer and JJ and Morgan's action hero antics. I just hope someone picks up your comments - they do occasionally pick up on fan views from the grown up viewer.

I also think that I few seasons back there were hints with Reid's headaches that they were planning for him to be written out. That's all very unclear but my suspicion is that they twigged that Reid  - who probably does have the biggest fanbase, the biggest following on Twitter - was in fact important to the show and they ley his headaches story slide at least till season 8 when when they gave him the token romance.

I hate all the romances - they come over to me as flat, forced and Disney and I confess to being a Beth hater. I know we didn't see her much (thank heavens!) but to me this giggly almost childish character was completely wrong for the strong, enigmatic and stoic Hotch. Of course I fear my views have been somewhat coloured by reading far too much fanfiction but at bottom I watch this show for the profiling and the team work on cases and the substandard romances and family moments leave me cold as they are often even more badly done than the worst soaps.

I also think Reid should get another job - it seems they do not value his extraordinary talents at all and I even get irked that he is still out in the Bullpen with all the non-team agents where almost all the others have an office. After some 12 years plus with the FBI you would think he would have moved up to that at least.

But nice to see a new fan and a new voice here so you are most welcome.

[amensisterfriend]

Welcome, Knittzu! None of your opinions are unpopular with me :) Suffice it to say that I agree with pretty much every syllable! 

 

My really unpopular opinion regarding JJ is that I don't think JJ 1.0 was a particularly good character. I never thought she was well defined or, frankly, all that well acted. As others have said, she was just sort of bland. I do agree that in earlier seasons she had more moments of relatable vulnerability and gave me hope at times that she could be a more layered and interesting character---but, overall, she wasn't, at least for me. And I don't think AJ Cook did a very effective job exuding the warmth and sympathy that was supposed to be a big part of what JJ 1.0 added to the team. 

 

I don't hate Beth, either, Knittzu! I actually vaguely like her, if only because it was such a relief to see Hotch actually smile again and seem more alive than he had in a few seasons.  

 

My ideal Criminal Minds would feature a team that consisted only of Reid, Hotch, Rossi, Elle, and Emily and explored those characters in greater depth and gave each of them more distinct specialties and roles, etc. although another somewhat unpopular opinion is that...

 

...I really like Kate Callahan a lot so far :)   

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I have been told many times that it's because I am a long time fan that I don't like the way the show is going and I can't take change - and yet here you are new to the show identifying all the things I hate about where the showrunner has taken the show.

 

Old Dog, a similar thing happened during the final two seasons of BTVS. People like me, who hated the turn the writing took and what it did to the characters I'd cared about for five years prior to that, were told that it was because I "couldn't handle the darkness" or somesuch nonsense. That the problem was me, not that the fact the writing was crap. I don't believe that any show can make all of the viewers happy, which may or may not be unpopular, but it's the dismissiveness that's inherent in "You hate change" that bugs me.

 

My ideal Criminal Minds would feature a team that consisted only of Reid, Hotch, Rossi, Elle, and Emily and explored those characters in greater depth and gave each of them more distinct specialties and roles, etc.

 

I could agree with that, but I'd like to see poor unsung Alex come back. I said a couple of months ago in the CM Fantasy thread that my ideal for the females on the team were Elle, Emily and Alex, and with better writing in the last case I think it would be less of a wasted opportunity. I didn't actually hate Kate right off the bat, so it isn't that I want a piano to fall on her head, but the show already had a semi "name" among the cast, and they didn't bother to do anything with her character.

[Old Dog]

I loved Blake! I thought she was the ultimate professional and I loved how she was with Reid - except for that one scene where she asked where he was on the Aspergers scale. For me, she was a much more believable agent than Barbie Schwarzenegger.