Carrie

[Gothish520]

On 6/10/2014 at 6:51 PM, Inquisitionist said:

I'm on this train!  I actually felt some compassion for Carrie right up through All or Nothing.  OK, she's swept up by feelings, she feels exhilarated but also guilty, she "confesses" to Samantha, and when Aidan says "I love you" at the end, Carrie reciprocates, and it seems she may have come to her senses as she tells Big (who suddenly becomes a stalker) that they can't continue. 

I just finished All or Nothing, so I'm not going to read any further comments about Carrie right now, but I just want to say that after this episode, I am firmly in her corner. Right or wrong, we all know how Carrie has always felt about Big, and in this episode he pursued her relentlessly. What woman isn't going to be swayed when the love of her life (and Big is that, whether we like it or not) calls constantly, shows up at her apartment, and professes his love, all in short order after a steamy romp? 

I may change my tune after future events unfold, but I have to admit, I understand Carrie's dilemma at this point in the story. 

[Inquisitionist]

9 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I may change my tune after future events unfold, but I have to admit, I understand Carrie's dilemma at this point in the story. 

I'll be interested in your take after the next episode, because that's when I did an about face.  

[Gothish520]

I guess there must be something wrong with me, because I just finished Escape From New York and I still don't hate Carrie. I was surprised that her affair with Big continued with no explanation after All or Nothing, because they sure made it seem like she was really trying to end it with Big and give it her all with Aiden, but apparently not. 

The way I see it, Carrie is in love with Big and is fighting hard against it, and she's not in love with Aiden but feels that she should be. In her mind, there is no reason for her to not love him and be with him, but, as the cliche goes, the heart wants what the heart wants. It's entirely possible that I see things this way because I know Big is endgame - I would imagine that people saw things differently when they watched first-run or watched without being spoiled. I just don't feel it with Carrie and Aiden - he's kind of bland and wishy-washy. I did tear up at the end of Don't ask, Don't Tell though - say what you want about SJP, but she makes me believe Carrie's pain. 

I also think it wasn't entirely Carrie's fault that Natasha fell - an unfortunate accident, but it was Natasha's choice to run after her. I wouldn't have been all that comfortable prancing around my lover's apartment in my underwear, but Carrie did think that Natasha was out of town. 

[BBHN]

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but Carrie did think that Natasha was out of town

That...doesn't make it ok.

Love might make people do stupid things, but it isn't a justification for being an asshole.

[Gothish520]

32 minutes ago, BBHN said:

That...doesn't make it ok.

Love might make people do stupid things, but it isn't a justification for being an asshole.

But I don't feel that being in the apartment made her any more of an asshole than she already was for having an affair with a married man.  She thought Natasha was out of town, and Big told her to help herself to whatever, and left her in the apartment alone. IMO he was being way more of an asshole than Carrie ever dreamed of being. She doesn't owe Natasha crap - Big is the one cheating on his wife. 

Samantha had affairs with married men, yet she is loved and praised. Carrie has an affair with a man she's been in love with for some time, a man who pursued her after he went and foolishly got married to someone he obviously is not in love with, and she gets vilified. I'm not on board the Carrie hate-train yet.

[BBHN]

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But I don't feel that being in the apartment made her any more of an asshole than she already was for having an affair with a married man. 

It certainly adds on to it, for me. It just makes her a bigger asshole. And it doesn't get better from there.

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She doesn't owe Natasha crap - Big is the one cheating on his wife.

For fucking Natasha's husband and doing the deed in Natasha's bed? I'd say she owes Natasha something.

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Samantha had affairs with married men

Willingly and knowingly? I don't quite remember it that way, except for one instance.

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Carrie has an affair with a man she's been in love with for some time, a man who pursued her after he went and foolishly got married to someone he obviously is not in love with, and she gets vilified.

Was he pointing a gun at her head all the times he repeatedly stuck his married penis into her vagina?

He may have pursued her, but she didn't have to (repeatedly) keep saying yes.

[Inquisitionist]

I don't even mind Carrie having an affair with Big.  I mind her not breaking things off with Aiden.  He deserved better.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, BBHN said:

It certainly adds on to it, for me. It just makes her a bigger asshole. And it doesn't get better from there.

For fucking Natasha's husband and doing the deed in Natasha's bed? I'd say she owes Natasha something.

Willingly and knowingly? I don't quite remember it that way, except for one instance.

Was he pointing a gun at her head all the times he repeatedly stuck his married penis into her vagina?

He may have pursued her, but she didn't have to (repeatedly) keep saying yes.

Big owes her, because he is the one breaking their marriage vows. Natasha certainly has the right to hate Carrie, but her husband is the one who is betraying her.

And Carrie has one instance, so I guess it's a tie?

She kept saying yes because she is in love with him. Big knows how Carrie feels about him, and he actively chases after her while married. She tried to resist him and push him away but he is her kryptonite.

Neither of them are behaving honorably here, that is for sure. I just don't see Carrie as doing anything to make her any more of a bad person than anyone else on the show- yet.

13 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I don't even mind Carrie having an affair with Big.  I mind her not breaking things off with Aiden.  He deserved better.

She was trying to convince herself that Aiden was the one. I think she knew things were going nowhere with Big at that time, and she didn't want to give Aiden up. 

[BBHN]

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Big owes her, because he is the one breaking their marriage vows. Natasha certainly has the right to hate Carrie, but her husband is the one who is betraying her.

Except Carrie is complicit in that betrayal. Repeatedly.

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And Carrie has one instance, so I guess it's a tie?

Not really. Carrie was having a long term affair with a married man while Carrie herself was in a relationship with another man.

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She kept saying yes because she is in love with him. Big knows how Carrie feels about him, and he actively chases after her while married. She tried to resist him and push him away but he is her kryptonite.

That isn't, nor should it be, an excuse to fuck a married man, regardless of whether you are in love with him. It shouldn't excuse it nor should it justify her actions. Does it make for good soap opera? Sure it does. But it doesn't make the protagonist any less of an asshole.

I get it. Not everyone is on the Carrie Hate Train. But for me, between the whole Big/Natasha affair, the bullshit bagel apology, Ring a Ding Ding, and so many other things, I've booked a lifetime first class suite on that train. And I say this as someone who actually enjoyed Carrie in the first 2 seasons (more or less).

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He deserved better.

He certainly did.

Edited March 31, 2018 by BBHN

[Inquisitionist]

6 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

She was trying to convince herself that Aiden was the one. I think she knew things were going nowhere with Big at that time, and she didn't want to give Aiden up. 

She was always "trying Aiden on" like a pair of not-quite-designer shoes.  

[Gothish520]

7 hours ago, BBHN said:

I get it. Not everyone is on the Carrie Hate Train. But for me, between the whole Big/Natasha affair, the bullshit bagel apology, Ring a Ding Ding, and so many other things, I've booked a lifetime first class suite on that train. 

I know there's still a lot coming, so who knows, I may be booking a ticket. But as of right now,  Carrie is just a regular old screwed-up single woman making bad choices. Been there, done that.

[jenrising]

15 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

She was trying to convince herself that Aiden was the one. I think she knew things were going nowhere with Big at that time, and she didn't want to give Aiden up. 

That makes her even more of a jerk. She's cheating on Aiden and keeping him around even though she doesn't really love him, for when her affair with her real true love falls apart? That's not regular old behavior to me. 

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, jenrising said:

That makes her even more of a jerk. She's cheating on Aiden and keeping him around even though she doesn't really love him, for when her affair with her real true love falls apart? That's not regular old behavior to me. 

Well, that's just pure speculation on my part. Carrie was confused and angsty about her feelings for Big; I firmly believe that if she could make her feelings for him go away, she would've in a minute. Am I the only one who's ever been in love with someone who was bad for them, at least at that time, someone who twisted them up in knots, and they tried like hell to get over them and get past them before their heart was ready to move on?

Carrie is not strutting around like she is Queen Shyte, she is not happy about where she is at all. She's troubled and sad and pissed at herself, and at Big, and she feels bad about what she did to Aiden and to Natasha. I'm not sure why people think she is happy and pleased with herself because I'm not seeing that at all.

[Sun-Bun]

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Well, that's just pure speculation on my part. Carrie was confused and angsty about her feelings for Big; I firmly believe that if she could make her feelings for him go away, she would've in a minute. Am I the only one who's ever been in love with someone who was bad for them, at least at that time, someone who twisted them up in knots, and they tried like hell to get over them and get past them before their heart was ready to move on?

Carrie is not strutting around like she is Queen Shyte, she is not happy about where she is at all. She's troubled and sad and pissed at herself, and at Big, and she feels bad about what she did to Aiden and to Natasha. I'm not sure why people think she is happy and pleased with herself because I'm not seeing that at all.

Thanks so much for this, @Gothish520; I’ve been a huge Carrie apologist from the beginning even though I realize that she’s a hugely self-centered asshole in many ways((SJP somehow played her endearingly enough to get away with a lot in my book, even despite the oddly prudish streak that was likely all SJP’s fault)). 

But it’s hard for me to place all the blame squarely on Carrie's shoulders alone for the Big affair and its messy aftermath. Speaking as someone who also had my fair share of similarly toxic former flames who dragged me into similarly compromising situations, I admittedly felt for her and understood her obvious self-loathing; when that natural raw chemistry is still there and the other party is actively in hot pursuit, resistance is almost futile. Sure she knew it was awful morally to allow his advances and she knew it would potentially ruin her stable current relationship, but she also knew she was horrible to even allow things to continue. She was not remotely happy; she was merely satisfying her addiction to Big.

I do fault Carrie greatly for the way she finally confessed to the affair to Aidan though—-telling him the same day of her best friend’s wedding was beyond shitty and cruel to all parties involved. She couldn’t wait another day?! 

[BBHN]

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That makes her even more of a jerk. She's cheating on Aiden and keeping him around even though she doesn't really love him, for when her affair with her real true love falls apart? That's not regular old behavior to me. 

She wants to have her cake and eat it as well.

[Gothish520]

23 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

Thanks so much for this, @Gothish520; I’ve been a huge Carrie apologist from the beginning even though I realize that she’s a hugely self-centered asshole in many ways((SJP somehow played her endearingly enough to get away with a lot in my book, even despite the oddly prudish streak that was likely all SJP’s fault)). 

But it’s hard for me to place all the blame squarely on Carrie's shoulders alone for the Big affair and its messy aftermath. Speaking as someone who also had my fair share of similarly toxic former flames who dragged me into similarly compromising situations, I admittedly felt for her and understood her obvious self-loathing; when that natural raw chemistry is still there and the other party is actively in hot pursuit, resistance is almost futile. Sure she knew it was awful morally to allow his advances and she knew it would potentially ruin her stable current relationship, but she also knew she was horrible to even allow things to continue. She was not remotely happy; she was merely satisfying her addiction to Big.

I do fault Carrie greatly for the way she finally confessed to the affair to Aidan though—-telling him the same day of her best friend’s wedding was beyond shitty and cruel to all parties involved. She couldn’t wait another day?! 

Completely agree! And yes, Carrie does have the worst timing, but thankfully Charlotte was not aware of what transpired, so it didn't ruin the wedding.

My sister and I are watching together; she's in her mid-forties and divorced, I'm in my mid-fifties and happily married. We just started season four and we both still like Carrie and can relate to her more than any of the other women. Samantha's a hoot, but come on - not many women act like that in real life. Charlotte is too uptight and judgemental. Miranda needs to take the stick out of her ass and loosen up when it comes to men. I didn't like the way they turned Steve into such a goof right before they broke up, but Miranda didn't have to act like a raging bitch. 

I love the friendship between the women, that's where the show really shines.

[Inquisitionist]

7 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Completely agree! And yes, Carrie does have the worst timing, but thankfully Charlotte was not aware of what transpired, so it didn't ruin the wedding.

What kind of Maid of Honor, though, arrives just before the ceremony?  They usually do photos for like hours beforehand.  What on earth did Carrie have to do that day that was more important than being on time for her friend? I think Carrie got off easy because Charlotte was so distracted by Trey's inability to "get it up."  ;-)

[Gothish520]

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

What kind of Maid of Honor, though, arrives just before the ceremony?  They usually do photos for like hours beforehand.  What on earth did Carrie have to do that day that was more important than being on time for her friend? I think Carrie got off easy because Charlotte was so distracted by Trey's inability to "get it up."  ;-)

It didn't seem to be an issue for the bride, so I can't get too worked up over it.

[Melancholy]

My opinion is colored by how Carrie acted in later episodes. I didn’t watch the series in order as it aired. I saw S4-6 in order first and then caught the earlier seasons out of order later. And then, recently did a whole rewatch in order.  So, I don’t know what it’s like to evaluate Carrie before the later seasons. I can be very sympathetic to cheater characters. But I think Carrie was particularly intolerable about it. I don’t think she felt badly about Natasha or Aiden other than in little specific waves when her face was pushed down into the shit her actions caused. Like, she only seemed to feel for Natasha immediately after Natasha fell on the stairs. A person who truly felt guilty about what she was doing to the wife wouldn’t boil down the pleasure and misery of the affair to the elegance of the hotel rooms without a word of thought to Aiden and Natasha. She wouldn’t prance around the wife’s home in her underwear, peeking into the fridge and cabinets as she academically and snarky mused about the wife. She’d stand there and accept the consequences of the wife catching her instead of being a coward and running down the stairs. She wouldn’t dismissively say that she thinks of Natasha all the time to the point that even naive Charlotte said Carrie was not and she was just thinking of herself.

The affair started to reveal crucial character defects in every aspect of Carrie’s life. She’s fun because she’s spontaneous and lives in the now. Her nicer side is how she can have sympathy for pain that’s right in front of her. However, she’s incapable of thinking about anything beyond her immediate wants and cravings because she’s fundamentally value-less. She muses about values: she doesn’t hold them. For all of the time she spends thinking of her life, she behaves thoughtlessly with resulting selfishness, cruelty (even if unintentional), and irresponsibility. It’s interesting but it’s the stuff of anti-heroes. Not rom-com heroines. 

Carrie’s friends can be rigid in their types but those types lend values. Samantha wouldn’t slut shame. Charlotte wouldn’t have an affair. Miranda wouldn’t let a man pay for her life or be financially irresponsible. Carrie doesn’t have these values so she commits all of these sins. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Melancholy

[Inquisitionist]

1 minute ago, Gothish520 said:

It didn't seem to be an issue for the bride, so I can't get too worked up over it.

Which was pretty completely out of character for control-freak Charlotte, don't you think?  I view this as another instance of "convenient" writing when it comes to (not) holding Carrie accountable.

 

1 minute ago, Melancholy said:

The affair started to reveal crucial character defects in every aspect of Carrie’s life. She’s fun because she’s spontaneous and lives in the now. Her nicer side is how she can have sympathy for pain that’s right in front of her. However, she’s incapable of thinking about anything beyond her immediate wants and cravings because she’s fundamentally value-less. She muses about values: she doesn’t hold them. For all of the time she spends thinking of her life, she behaves thoughtlessly with resulting selfishness, cruelty (even if unintentional), and irresponsibility.

Co-sign.  :-)

[BBHN]

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The affair started to reveal crucial character defects in every aspect of Carrie’s life. She’s fun because she’s spontaneous and lives in the now. Her nicer side is how she can have sympathy for pain that’s right in front of her. However, she’s incapable of thinking about anything beyond her immediate wants and cravings because she’s fundamentally value-less. She muses about values: she doesn’t hold them. For all of the time she spends thinking of her life, she behaves thoughtlessly with resulting selfishness, cruelty (even if unintentional), and irresponsibility.

A-freakin'-men.

[Gothish520]

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

My opinion is colored by how Carrie acted in later episodes. I didn’t watch the series in order as it aired. I saw S4-6 in order first and then caught the earlier seasons out of order later. And then, recently did a whole rewatch in order.  So, I don’t know what it’s like to evaluate Carrie before the later seasons. I can be very sympathetic to cheater characters. But I think Carrie was particularly intolerable about it. I don’t think she felt badly about Natasha or Aiden other than in little specific waves when her face was pushed down into the shit her actions caused. Like, she only seemed to feel for Natasha immediately after Natasha fell on the stairs. A person who truly felt guilty about what she was doing to the wife wouldn’t boil down the pleasure and misery of the affair to the elegance of the hotel rooms without a word of thought to Aiden and Natasha. She wouldn’t prance around the wife’s home in her underwear, peeking into the fridge and cabinets as she academically and snarky mused about the wife. She’d stand there and accept the consequences of the wife catching her instead of being a coward and running down the stairs. She wouldn’t dismissively say that she thinks of Natasha all the time to the point that even naive Charlotte said Carrie was not and she was just thinking of herself.

The affair started to reveal crucial character defects in every aspect of Carrie’s life. She’s fun because she’s spontaneous and lives in the now. Her nicer side is how she can have sympathy for pain that’s right in front of her. However, she’s incapable of thinking about anything beyond her immediate wants and cravings because she’s fundamentally value-less. She muses about values: she doesn’t hold them. For all of the time she spends thinking of her life, she behaves thoughtlessly with resulting selfishness, cruelty (even if unintentional), and irresponsibility. It’s interesting but it’s the stuff of anti-heroes. Not rom-com heroines. 

Carrie’s friends can be rigid in their types but those types lend values. Samantha wouldn’t slut shame. Charlotte wouldn’t have an affair. Miranda wouldn’t let a man pay for her life or be financially irresponsible. Carrie doesn’t have these values so she commits all of these sins. 

 

Very thoughtful analysis.

I'm on my first watch of the show after seeing some of the first movie and random edited episodes here and there. So, I think I came into this as a novice with no real preconceived notions of the women, except for the surface stereotypes.

What I like about Carrie is that she does not fit a stereotype. She often plays devil's advocate and tries to see both sides of an arguement, which I assume comes from being a writer. I can forgive the naval-gazing to a certain extent, because really this show is about her and how she sees the world. The narrator calls the shots. 

I also don't really feel she was prancing around the place, that was an exaggeration on my part. And I don't feel that her musings about Natasha were necessarily snarky, just musings.

Of course Samantha wouldn't slut-shame, how could she? I can't say the same about myself, and I'm no prude. I like her, she's fun and funny, but sometimes she is downright ridiculous. She uses sex as instant gratification - she is all about hedonism and physical pleasure. How often is she thinking about the consequences of her actions? And every time they show her at the office, she's ripping someone a new arsehole. She seems like she'd be a nightmare to work for. I don't like that behavior in male bosses; I'm certainly not going to give it a pass because she's a woman.

And while Charlotte might not have had an affair, she did kiss another man while married. Not as bad, but still bad. Her wide-eyed innocent act is grating - she is the one I identify with the least. As for Miranda, I don't think it's necessarily a character flaw to let a man pay for things, if he wants to. I also don't feel that Miranda was virtuous for being an attorney and being able to pay her own way. I know women who are completely supported by their husbands and women who aren't at all, and everything in between - that aspect of their life does not affect my opinion of them or determines whether they are a good person or not. Couples work out what is financially acceptable and beneficial to them and their relationship. Many times I want to punch Miranda in her bitchy, self-satisfied, "I don't need a man to take care of me" face. 

I disagree that Carrie is incapable of thinking beyond her immediate needs - she does think of others, she has delayed or denied her own gratification - she just doesn't always do that. I'm at the point in the series where she is keeping Big at arm's length while trying to maintain a friendship with him, despite the fact that they are both single. How easy it would be to just fall into a sexual relationship with him again - but she knows at this point that it would not go anywhere. Obviously things change down the road, but at least she is trying, she's showing some growth and self-awareness. The scene with Carrie and Miranda at the thrift store was great, precisely because I agreed with both women - I understand Miranda's frustration with the idea that Carrie would go down that road again with Big, and I understand and agree with Carrie's feelings about Miranda and how she handled things with Steve. 

Carrie is completely flawed - self-centered, childish, impulsive, confused - but also a caring friend, and as someone once wrote in a piece defending her, she shows up (maybe late sometimes) - that's a lot more than many people can claim in this "sorry can't make it" world of "friendship". She's a better friend to these women than I'd ever be. She recognizes her flaws, but sometimes knowing that one is a certain way doesn't mean they can necessarily change it. Carrie is a realistic character because of her flaws and her mistakes. But she's also sweet and funny, and she is there for her friends and she does listen and try to help them. She also beats herself up plenty. 

I think she is by far the most relatable character on the show.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Gothish520
spelling

[Melancholy]

I disagree but I appreciate your thoughtful analysis as well. Hmm, most of the time, Samantha was correct to yell at work. To the twenty something loudly yacking about her personal life on the phone (who Sam later helped at the Hamptons party even though the 20 something stole the Rolodex to plan it), to the young male employee where they were both getting off on fighting where he’d disrespect her authority and she’d brow beat him. There’s one story line later in the series where she behaves terribly to a client but she’s immediately punished. 

I don’t think one kiss out of frustration that Trey wasn’t performing his basic conjugal duties was so bad. There, Charlotte had her values. If she was less concerned with preserving marriage and the responsibility committed partners have to each other, she would have divorced Trey because their marriage was unconsummated or cheated more or taken Trey’s (hurt, embarrassed) permission to seek sexual pleasure elsewhere while married. She did not. She picked the harder direction of refusing to have a marriage where she looks for sex on the side and she didn’t give up on Trey easy. 

I do think it’s a character flaw for a woman to rely on a man for financial support unless there’s some division of labor. I.e. the woman takes care of the kids or there’s something arduous about keeping the home. Or if the woman is hard up for a good reason and truly needs help. For one, I think a childless, able woman with no evident adversity who perennially can’t manage her finances is a weak person. Second while I believe Carrie really loved Big, her chasing after him even as she was saying he was an asshole was gold digging. Her love for Big was deeply felt but it was very much tied up with money. My issues with that come up later though. I didn’t have a problem with the guys paying for dates and vacations- the surroundings of dates. 

I didn’t have a problem with how Miranda treated Steve. They were dating and hadn’t been going out very long on this Round 2 of their relationship. The dating period is the ideal time to evaluate whether you enjoy being with the person enough to commit to marriage or children. So, Miranda was under no obligation to stay with Steve even though she was finding him annoying and wasn’t enjoying their relationship. I’d find a lot of Steve’s “cereal milk gushing down his chin while he gurgles over Scooby Doo while Miranda is trying to work” antics annoying enough to end the relationship too. At that point, you owe a partner kindness and honesty but not your time forevermore and your womb. I get that Carrie was also finding Aiden annoying. I get it since I think Aiden was off puttingly earnest and preachy. Those flaws aren’t NEARLY as bad as Steve’s inane thoughtlessness or Trey’s inability to function as a husband. But still- yes, Aiden was annoying. But Carrie should have honestly broken up with him like Miranda did with Steve instead of cheating. So again, I think Carrie yelled at Miranda over Steve mostly because Carrie felt cornered and wanted the best defense (offense). She never said Miranda was wrong to dump Steve or do Mean Mommy stuff before I.e. have the temerity to ask for quiet in her own apartment when working or refuse to have his baby now. So, I think Miranda yelled out of concern for Carrie making the same self destructive mistakes with Big and Carrie yelled so she wouldn’t be the only one on trial for her actions. However to the extent that any of Carrie’s criticisms of Miranda express true feelings on relationships instead of “I know you are but what am I” schoolyard tactics, it’s Carries mistaken belief that it’s virtuous to avoid doing what looks ugly in the moment even if it’s dishonest and actually, more hurtful. You cheat on your annoying, clingy boyfriend and lie about complying with his smoking requirements- you don’t try to get him to be less annoying but then dump him if you’re irritated with the relationship.

I actually do agree that Miranda seems smug and self satisfied and severe. It’s off putting. But her actions, taken aside from her demeanor, pretty universally range from honorable to actually doormat/too nice. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Melancholy

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

I disagree that Carrie is incapable of thinking beyond her immediate needs - she does think of others, she has delayed or denied her own gratification - she just doesn't always do that. I'm at the point in the series where she is keeping Big at arm's length while trying to maintain a friendship with him, despite the fact that they are both single.

So have  you seen Ep. 3-17, "What Goes Around Comes Around"?  That's another one that made Carrie considerably less likeable, or relate-able, to me.

15 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

 I get that Carrie was also finding Aiden annoying. I get it since I think Aiden was off puttingly earnest and preachy. Those flaws aren’t NEARLY as bad as Steve’s inane thoughtlessness or Trey’s inability to function as a husband. But still- yes, Aiden was annoying. But Carrie should have honestly broken up with him like Miranda did with Steve instead of cheating.

That character trait was pretty much in evidence from the moment Carrie met Aiden.  I never understood the basis of their "relationship," from either character's point of view. 

[Melancholy]

39 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

So have  you seen Ep. 3-17, "What Goes Around Comes Around"?  That's another one that made Carrie considerably less likeable, or relate-able, to me.

That character trait was pretty much in evidence from the moment Carrie met Aiden.  I never understood the basis of their "relationship," from either character's point of view. 

It’s easier to get Aiden’s basis for having a relationship. Jock country boy types get dazzled by a woman whose aces at the “feminine arts.” Wit, style, beauty, sophistication. Carrie is the iconic “on a bus” NYC party girl. The high maintenance or high spending or distaste for anything rough become turn ons themselves- proof of the girliness. It’s a trope. A trope with quite a few break ups/divorces because they’re opposites with nothing in common but a trope nonetheless. That kind of relationship needs for both parties to be crazy about commitment to each other so they have a home/children/friends/their lives as common passions even if they lack shared hobbies  

Its a little harder with Carrie because she seemed irritated with the relationship from probably the minute she landed him despite the smoking or definitely once they slept together. However, I think she truly thought he was a wonderful person full of integrity and kindness. She genuinely found him handsome. They had decent sex. She loved and increasingly grew dependent on how he took care of her. She didn’t want to lose all of that after years of no love and then, feeling mistreated with Big, first and actual love of her life. I think all of the women except Samantha feel bad that they’re single and feel like their opportunity for love is closing. So, Carrie stayed with Aiden even though she clearly finds him annoying most of the time and even though she knows she’s capable of experiencing far more exquisite passion and pleasure with Big and even though she’d prefer being married to a multi millionaire 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Melancholy

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

So have  you seen Ep. 3-17, "What Goes Around Comes Around"?  That's another one that made Carrie considerably less likeable, or relate-able, to me.

One of Carrie's flaws is that she often makes things worse when, instead of just leaving things alone, she tries to apologize or make up for something, ostensibly to make things "right", when what she is really doing is trying to assuage her guilt. She hated the fact that Natasha hated her. So she tracks her down and apologizes, and just hopes that Natasha will say something to make her feel better about the situation. That Carrie ended up feeling worse shows that the show doesn't just make things all better for Carrie. She usually has to live with the consequences of her actions, as she should.

Where I am in the series, I think Carrie might have gotten over Big by now if he had just left her alone. He pursued her until she relented and they had an affair, which she tried to resist/end, unsuccessfully. Getting caught by Natasha finally ended that. Then, she finds out Natasha and Big are broken up, but does she reach out to him? No, HE calls HER, and they are remaining just friends (for now), though he is clearly trying for more. I have to give credit where it's due, Carrie is trying to avoid past mistakes.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I disagree but I appreciate your thoughtful analysis as well. Hmm, most of the time, Samantha was correct to yell at work. To the twenty something loudly yacking about her personal life on the phone (who Sam later helped at the Hamptons party even though the 20 something stole the Rolodex to plan it), to the young male employee where they were both getting off on fighting where he’d disrespect her authority and she’d brow beat him. There’s one story line later in the series where she behaves terribly to a client but she’s immediately punished. 

I don’t think one kiss out of frustration that Trey wasn’t performing his basic conjugal duties was so bad. There, Charlotte had her values. If she was less concerned with preserving marriage and the responsibility committed partners have to each other, she would have divorced Trey because their marriage was unconsummated or cheated more or taken Trey’s (hurt, embarrassed) permission to seek sexual pleasure elsewhere while married. She did not. She picked the harder direction of refusing to have a marriage where she looks for sex on the side and she didn’t give up on Trey easy. 

I do think it’s a character flaw for a woman to rely on a man for financial support unless there’s some division of labor. I.e. the woman takes care of the kids or there’s something arduous about keeping the home. Or if the woman is hard up for a good reason and truly needs help. For one, I think a childless, able woman with no evident adversity who perennially can’t manage her finances is a weak person. Second while I believe Carrie really loved Big, her chasing after him even as she was saying he was an asshole was gold digging. Her love for Big was deeply felt but it was very much tied up with money. My issues with that come up later though. I didn’t have a problem with the guys paying for dates and vacations- the surroundings of dates. 

I didn’t have a problem with how Miranda treated Steve. They were dating and hadn’t been going out very long on this Round 2 of their relationship. The dating period is the ideal time to evaluate whether you enjoy being with the person enough to commit to marriage or children. So, Miranda was under no obligation to stay with Steve even though she was finding him annoying and wasn’t enjoying their relationship. I’d find a lot of Steve’s “cereal milk gushing down his chin while he gurgles over Scooby Doo while Miranda is trying to work” antics annoying enough to end the relationship too. At that point, you owe a partner kindness and honesty but not your time forevermore and your womb. I get that Carrie was also finding Aiden annoying. I get it since I think Aiden was off puttingly earnest and preachy. Those flaws aren’t NEARLY as bad as Steve’s inane thoughtlessness or Trey’s inability to function as a husband. But still- yes, Aiden was annoying. But Carrie should have honestly broken up with him like Miranda did with Steve instead of cheating. So again, I think Carrie yelled at Miranda over Steve mostly because Carrie felt cornered and wanted the best defense (offense). She never said Miranda was wrong to dump Steve or do Mean Mommy stuff before I.e. have the temerity to ask for quiet in her own apartment when working or refuse to have his baby now. So, I think Miranda yelled out of concern for Carrie making the same self destructive mistakes with Big and Carrie yelled so she wouldn’t be the only one on trial for her actions. However to the extent that any of Carrie’s criticisms of Miranda express true feelings on relationships instead of “I know you are but what am I” schoolyard tactics, it’s Carries mistaken belief that it’s virtuous to avoid doing what looks ugly in the moment even if it’s dishonest and actually, more hurtful. You cheat on your annoying, clingy boyfriend and lie about complying with his smoking requirements- you don’t try to get him to be less annoying but then dump him if you’re irritated with the relationship.

I actually do agree that Miranda seems smug and self satisfied and severe. It’s off putting. But her actions, taken aside from her demeanor, pretty universally range from honorable to actually doormat/too nice. 

 

Excellent points. I really like your take on Miranda and Steve's relationship. I loved Steve the first go-round, and still loved him up until the the cereal and Scooby-Do scene, as well as his insistence on having a kid. It was definitely presented like Steve was not even listening to Miranda's thoughts and feelings on the subject. I like your take on Miranda's overall character and actions too. I felt bad for her when the gym guy dumped her because she gained some confidence. He liked her as the mousy no-makeup, no confidence girl, but not as a put-together, confident woman. Miranda is already confused trying to figure out what men want, this didn't help! BTW, when I take those "which character are you?" quizzes, I usually get Miranda, lol.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the money thing. Couples need to do what feels right for them when it comes to finances. If a man has money and has no problem being the one who pays for things, that's up to him. Ditto the reverse, of course. For the average Joe and Jane, yes, if a woman isn't working, then she is usually at home taking care of the kids and keeping the home running smoothly. However, I won't judge couples who are childless and make their own financial arrangements. So far, I haven't seen any indication that Big's money is a driving factor in Carrie's feelings for him, although of course, I'm sure it doesn't hurt!

Edited April 2, 2018 by Gothish520
spelling

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Melancholy said:

My opinion is colored by how Carrie acted in later episodes. I didn’t watch the series in order as it aired. I saw S4-6 in order first and then caught the earlier seasons out of order later. And then, recently did a whole rewatch in order.  So, I don’t know what it’s like to evaluate Carrie before the later seasons. I can be very sympathetic to cheater characters. But I think Carrie was particularly intolerable about it. I don’t think she felt badly about Natasha or Aiden other than in little specific waves when her face was pushed down into the shit her actions caused. Like, she only seemed to feel for Natasha immediately after Natasha fell on the stairs. A person who truly felt guilty about what she was doing to the wife wouldn’t boil down the pleasure and misery of the affair to the elegance of the hotel rooms without a word of thought to Aiden and Natasha. She wouldn’t prance around the wife’s home in her underwear, peeking into the fridge and cabinets as she academically and snarky mused about the wife. She’d stand there and accept the consequences of the wife catching her instead of being a coward and running down the stairs. She wouldn’t dismissively say that she thinks of Natasha all the time to the point that even naive Charlotte said Carrie was not and she was just thinking of herself.

The affair started to reveal crucial character defects in every aspect of Carrie’s life. She’s fun because she’s spontaneous and lives in the now. Her nicer side is how she can have sympathy for pain that’s right in front of her. However, she’s incapable of thinking about anything beyond her immediate wants and cravings because she’s fundamentally value-less. She muses about values: she doesn’t hold them. For all of the time she spends thinking of her life, she behaves thoughtlessly with resulting selfishness, cruelty (even if unintentional), and irresponsibility. It’s interesting but it’s the stuff of anti-heroes. Not rom-com heroines. 

Carrie’s friends can be rigid in their types but those types lend values. Samantha wouldn’t slut shame. Charlotte wouldn’t have an affair. Miranda wouldn’t let a man pay for her life or be financially irresponsible. Carrie doesn’t have these values so she commits all of these sins. 

Very well said! You've explained it much better then I could have. 

[Gothish520]

Ahhh, ok, I have finally come across something that caused me to give Carrie some legit side-eye - you beg your ex to take you back, then beg him to forgive you for cheating on him - and when he asks you to stop having contact with the man you cheated on him with, you tell him no?! I am surprised that no one else has mentioned this, because pretty much everything else that people are pissed at Carrie for pales in comparison.

There is NO GOOD reason for Carrie to continue interacting with Big if she really wants her relationship with Aidan to work. I can't believe Aidan went along with that. No, nope, no way - Big's gotta go.

Still love Carrie, still relate to her, but we part company on this issue.

But I'm really enjoying season four - despite my disagreement about Big, the episode when he comes to Aidan's cabin is pretty funny. And this season is sure bringing the feels, what with Miranda's Mom passing, Steve's cancer, and then Miranda's pregnancy. Carrie walking with Miranda was so touching - Carrie was her best, a great friend throughout that whole episode. 

The bullshit bagel situation was not near as bad as I thought it was going to be - Miranda forgave her right away (after chastising her), and I really don't think Carrie even knew Miranda was mad before she got there. Aidan didn't tell her about seeing Miranda naked, so Carrie had no idea what the situation was. And really, if Carrie went there, what could she have done? She would've had to call an ambulance because she wouldn't have been able to lift Miranda up.

That being said, who brings bagels without cream cheese? Ridiculous!

[BBHN]

Quote

One of Carrie's flaws is that she often makes things worse when, instead of just leaving things alone, she tries to apologize or make up for something, ostensibly to make things "right", when what she is really doing is trying to assuage her guilt. She hated the fact that Natasha hated her. So she tracks her down and apologizes, and just hopes that Natasha will say something to make her feel better about the situation. That Carrie ended up feeling worse shows that the show doesn't just make things all better for Carrie. She usually has to live with the consequences of her actions, as she should.

I think she hated that Natahsa would possibly tell other people within Natasha's high society circle about Carrie's role in the demise of Natasha and Big's marriage, and given how much Carrie craved to be a part of that crowd, I think it freaked her out.

Natasha was much more civil about it all than Carrie was. I would have ordered another glass of water just to throw it in Carrie's face. Then I would have asked her to leave.

Quote

Where I am in the series, I think Carrie might have gotten over Big by now if he had just left her alone. He pursued her until she relented and they had an affair

I think that puts too much of the affair blame on Big, and not on Carrie.

Quote

There is NO GOOD reason for Carrie to continue interacting with Big if she really wants her relationship with Aidan to work. I can't believe Aidan went along with that. No, nope, no way - Big's gotta go.

If Carrie had any kind of self-realization, or any kind of capacity for self-analysis, she would have seen that she was the Big in her relationship with Aidan, while Aidan was the Carrie. And she should have maybe learned something from that. But, Carrie being Carrie...

I mean, her big conclusion about the demise of Natasha and Big's marriage wasn't her own role in it, or how she helped a man commit adultery while she was also in a relationship with someone else. No, the big lesson from all of that was that Natasha was now single and back on the NYC singles market, and oh no Carrie has her rival back or whatever. Ugh.

Quote

The bullshit bagel situation was not near as bad as I thought it was going to be

The bullshit bagel situation (also the name of my next band) highlighted another aspect of Carrie's asshole-ish qualities. The way she just needs to bring everything back about her. I didn't mind that she sent Aidan, my issue with that episode was how Carrie gave like, a minute to talking about Miranda before making it about her.

"Ohhiyou'reinaneckbracehopeyour'refeelingbetternowenoughaboutyouletstalkaboutwhatreallymattersME"

Like, you couldn't spend a few more minutes discussing your friend? Ugh again.

[Melancholy]

Carrie’s insistence on keeping up a relationship with Big and allowing Big to come to Aiden’s beloved self-built cabin is a big part of my dislike. It’s largely why I don’t think Carrie truly felt guilty for how she hurt Aiden in the affair. I think I’d argue Carrie sincerely regretted her actions towards Aiden (but not Natasha) if the series stopped in S3. But S4 exposes how Carrie’s guilt and responsibility to Aiden was unbelievably shallow and again, thoughtless.

I don’t mind that Carrie sent Aiden to take care of Miranda. And it’s not Carrie’s fault that Miranda was naked. But I think it’s grotesque that Carrie couldn’t spend a minute discussing Miranda’s injury. When making a get well call, it’s incumbent on the consoler to focus on the consoled. Ask all the good questions. What did the doctor say? How are you feeling? How did this happen? What a shame that you can’t run after all these months of training for the marathon... Let the conversation linger on the injury until there’s a natural space to change the subject. 

@Gothish520 glad to hear you’re enjoying the show. Yes, Big coming to the cabin was bad but hilarious. Chris Noth can be hilarious. I know it kills his dream guy image but they should have had him in pathetic mode more often because it’s very funny. “No, no. She can call me but *I* can never reach her!” Iconic. 

I also thought Carrie’s “apology” scene with Natasha was effective in showing that what she did was wrong and not excused or erased just because the heroine sat down and apologized. Carrie has protagonist privilege and even more, she has omniscient narrator privilege. There needs to be voices calling her out in-story to reassure the audience that the world doesn’t run on Carrie’s unreliable recounting of events and IMO her flawed sense of right and wrong. IMO, that didn’t happen enough but it did here and very effectively. Natasha’s cogent, articulate, deeply felt speech showing she knew Big was cheating and it hurt her for a long time belying how she was characterized as the “idiot stick figure with no soul” by Carrie. Natasha giving a head fake that she’d apologize to Carrie for something like taking away Big and Carrie leaning in for something like that until Natasha uses that to destroy Carrie. It’s one of my favorite scenes. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Melancholy

[Inquisitionist]

10 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Ahhh, ok, I have finally come across something that caused me to give Carrie some legit side-eye - you beg your ex to take you back, then beg him to forgive you for cheating on him - and when he asks you to stop having contact with the man you cheated on him with, you tell him no?! I am surprised that no one else has mentioned this, because pretty much everything else that people are pissed at Carrie for pales in comparison.

I was trying not to spoil it for you.  ;-)

Quote

 

The bullshit bagel situation was not near as bad as I thought it was going to be - Miranda forgave her right away (after chastising her), and I really don't think Carrie even knew Miranda was mad before she got there. Aidan didn't tell her about seeing Miranda naked, so Carrie had no idea what the situation was. And really, if Carrie went there, what could she have done? She would've had to call an ambulance because she wouldn't have been able to lift Miranda up.

That being said, who brings bagels without cream cheese? Ridiculous!

 

Once again, a friend of Carrie's let her off the hook too easily, IMO.  It's not that Carrie was wrong to send Aiden, it's her lack of empathy for her friend afterwards that grates.  As BBHN wrote:

9 hours ago, BBHN said:

The bullshit bagel situation (also the name of my next band) highlighted another aspect of Carrie's asshole-ish qualities. The way she just needs to bring everything back about her. I didn't mind that she sent Aidan, my issue with that episode was how Carrie gave like, a minute to talking about Miranda before making it about her.

"Ohhiyou'reinaneckbracehopeyour'refeelingbetternowenoughaboutyouletstalkaboutwhatreallymattersME"

Like, you couldn't spend a few more minutes discussing your friend? Ugh again.

[ktwo]

Quote

The way she just needs to bring everything back about her.

She does this in literally every coffeehouse scene. Once I noticed it was when I really started hating her. 

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Carrie’s insistence on keeping up a relationship with Big and allowing Big to come to Aiden’s beloved self-built cabin is a big part of my dislike. It’s largely why I don’t think Carrie truly felt guilty for how she hurt Aiden in the affair. I think I’d argue Carrie sincerely regretted her actions towards Aiden (but not Natasha) if the series stopped in S3. But S4 exposes how Carrie’s guilt and responsibility to Aiden was unbelievably shallow and again, thoughtless.

I don’t mind that Carrie sent Aiden to take care of Miranda. And it’s not Carrie’s fault that Miranda was naked. But I think it’s grotesque that Carrie couldn’t spend a minute discussing Miranda’s injury. When making a get well call, it’s incumbent on the consoler to focus on the consoled. Ask all the good questions. What did the doctor say? How are you feeling? How did this happen? What a shame that you can’t run after all these months of training for the marathon... Let the conversation linger on the injury until there’s a natural space to change the subject. 

Yes, it wasn't that Carrie sent Aiden that was it was Carrie showing up the next day to talk about herself. She couldn't and wouldn't stop to ask Miranda how she was, what did the doctor say and if she needed any help or anything else a good friend would ask.   

 

Quote

I also thought Carrie’s “apology” scene with Natasha was effective in showing that what she did was wrong and not excused or erased just because the heroine sat down and apologized. Carrie has protagonist privilege and even more, she has omniscient narrator privilege. There needs to be voices calling her out in-story to reassure the audience that the world doesn’t run on Carrie’s unreliable recounting of events and IMO her flawed sense of right and wrong. IMO, that didn’t happen enough but it did here and very effectively. Natasha’s cogent, articulate, deeply felt speech showing she knew Big was cheating and it hurt her for a long time belying how she was characterized as the “idiot stick figure with no soul” by Carrie. Natasha giving a head fake that she’d apologize to Carrie for something like taking away Big and Carrie leaning in for something like that until Natasha uses that to destroy Carrie. It’s one of my favorite scenes. 

Me too. I love everything Natasha says in that scene. I am really impressed by her restraint. I'm not sure I could be that calm or polite in that situation I still can't believe Carrie's part in the scene. She approaches her when she should have left her alone then to sit there and in the beginning Carrie really seems to think Natasha is about apology to Carrie. Because of course Carrie thinks that. She completely thinks she's owed an apology from Natasha and that she thinks she's going to get one. She's shocked when that doesn't happen.  I hate Carrie.  

[BBHN]

I think that was the scene where I finally flipped on liking Carrie.

[andromeda331]

6 minutes ago, BBHN said:

I think that was the scene where I finally flipped on liking Carrie.

This cemented my hate for Carrie.      

[Melancholy]

I do have mixed feelings about Carrie going to Natasha to apologize. It’s morally grey and complicated on Carrie’s end and that’s just as much why it’s one of my favorite scenes as the success (in writing and acting) of Natasha’s character coming out as a true person instead of the protagonist/narrator’s idiot stick figure with no soul.

 I think Carrie’s motives were mixed. Yes, she wanted to apologize to improve her reputation/karma. She selfishly had a problem with someone who travelled in her circles/aspirational circles hating her and gossiping about her. She’s particularly bothered at how Natasha whispers to her lunchmate before leaving the restaurant angrily in Natasha’s first scene in the ep. However I do think she also felt bad that her actions caused such pain and she was honestly guilty. She already knew Natasha hated her and has powerful dirt on her but mid way through the ep when Samantha says Natasha and Big got divorced, Carrie has a powerful burst of guilt and that’s what resolved her to go through the humiliation of apologizing to a woman that Carrie’s ego demanded be the “bad guy” in the epic Carrie/Big drama playing in Carrie’s head. That humiliation isn’t nothing. Carrie can feel empathy- she just requires bombshells like how she caused a divorce to think about it  

There are different schools of thought on whether an apology to someone you could easily never see again is more healing or hurtful. There’s no easy answer and it can change. But generally I think it’s worth a shot to apologize and try for healing. So on Carrie’s side in the making the apology. But yes, she was rude in how she made it. Never considering the less invasive approach of writing an apology letter and waiting for a response. Performatively drinking Natasha’s water because she wanted to underscore how this was hard for her. And worst of all, eagerly leaning into Natasha’s first “I’m sorry too.” Because Carrie did feel bad and knew her actions were wrong but she was desperate for any allowance that she was the innocent victim and that partially drove the apology.

Awesome scene. If the show took this approach more often with other characters breaking Carrie’s narrator/protagonist monopoly and Carrie dealing with that, she could have been one of my favorite characters of all time. But alas, SATC is brilliant but as a hilarious, heartfelt, sunny and pretty rom com. Not a dark character drama. So I end up preferring Carrie’s funnier, more likable friends. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Melancholy

[Inquisitionist]

10 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

There are different schools of thought on whether an apology to someone you could easily never see again is more healing or hurtful. There’s no easy answer and it can change. But generally I think it’s worth a shot to apologize and try for healing. So on Carrie’s side in the making the apology. But yes, she was rude in how she made it. Never considering the less invasive approach of writing an apology letter and waiting for a response. Performatively drinking Natasha’s water because she wanted to underscore how this was hard for her. And worst of all, eagerly leaning into Natasha’s first “I’m sorry too.” Because Carrie did feel bad and knew her actions were wrong but she was desperate for any allowance that she was the innocent victim and that partially drove the apology. 

An apology should make the receiver feel better.  At least Natasha had the satisfaction of telling Carrie off to her face in a controlled, classy manner.

In addition to everything else you've pointed out as wrong about this "apology" staging, Carrie chooses to stalk Natasha in a backless "come fuck me" dress.  Oy.

[Melancholy]

I agree but an apologizer can’t predict whether the apology will make the reciever feel better or whether NOT apologizing will just compound the pain of being so hurt while the wrongdoer just walks off with nothing said. In a situation like this, it could go either way. I think the wrongdoer just has to guess what’ll help and try their best. For my part, I was initially irritated with an unwanted apology via Facebook from an old high school classmate who hurt and betrayed me. I felt like this opened up a 9th grade wound needlessly in my sophomore year of college. Years later, I feel glad I got the apology as conformation that I wasn’t over sensitive or dramatic to be so hurt in ninth grade. So a person could have both reactions to the apology. 

[BBHN]

Quote

I agree but an apologizer can’t predict whether the apology will make the reciever feel better or whether NOT apologizing will just compound the pain of being so hurt while the wrongdoer just walks off with nothing said

Carrie knew Natasha was avoiding her. She had to have had some idea that Natasha just didn't want anything from Carrie at that point, apology included.

[Melancholy]

1 minute ago, BBHN said:

Carrie knew Natasha was avoiding her. She had to have had some idea that Natasha just didn't want anything from Carrie at that point, apology included.

I don’t think the avoidance was that clear. Lots of people don’t want to talk to a wrongdoer and they want to stomp out of a shared restaurant to show their contempt but they would take an apology. 

[Inquisitionist]

51 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

For my part, I was initially irritated with an unwanted apology via Facebook from an old high school classmate who hurt and betrayed me. I felt like this opened up a 9th grade wound needlessly in my sophomore year of college. Years later, I feel glad I got the apology as conformation that I wasn’t over sensitive or dramatic to be so hurt in ninth grade. So a person could have both reactions to the apology. 

But you got to have your reaction in private.  Carrie took that option away from Natasha.  And she resorted to subterfuge to do it (having Samantha's assistant wheedle Natasha's lunch location out of Natasha's assistant).  If Samantha was in on that, I'm a little surprised she would agree to it.  But then Carrie's friends are always doing inexplicable things for her!

[Melancholy]

54 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

But you got to have your reaction in private.  Carrie took that option away from Natasha.  And she resorted to subterfuge to do it (having Samantha's assistant wheedle Natasha's lunch location out of Natasha's assistant).  If Samantha was in on that, I'm a little surprised she would agree to it.  But then Carrie's friends are always doing inexplicable things for her!

That’s true that I had my reaction in private. My old classmate definitely had a much better apology, free from the drama and entrapment and social ulterior motives that made Carrie’s apology problematic. However, I still can’t condemn Carrie for the act of apologizing or even say that she’d be a better person if she didn’t apologize. She would have done better if she wrote a note IMO. I don’t think she would have done better if she didn’t apologize at all. 

[ByTor]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, it wasn't that Carrie sent Aiden that was it was Carrie showing up the next day to talk about herself. She couldn't and wouldn't stop to ask Miranda how she was, what did the doctor say and if she needed any help or anything else a good friend would ask.   

Not only that, but if that were me, I'd feel so bad for Miranda & her neck injury that I wouldn't have shown up with a basket of bagels, I would have brought a gift card for a massage.

[Inquisitionist]

47 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

That’s true that I had my reaction in private. My old classmate definitely had a much better apology, free from the drama and entrapment and social ulterior motives that made Carrie’s apology problematic. However, I still can’t condemn Carrie for the act of apologizing or even say that she’d be a better person if she didn’t apologize. She would have done better if she wrote a note IMO. I don’t think she would have done better if she didn’t apologize at all. 

Then we're actually in quasi-agreement.  A written apology from Carrie (one that actually sounded contrite but not asking for absolution) would have been fine by me.  It's the tracking-Natasha-down-and-ambushing-her-in-public that I can't get on board with.

[Gothish520]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I do have mixed feelings about Carrie going to Natasha to apologize. It’s morally grey and complicated on Carrie’s end and that’s just as much why it’s one of my favorite scenes as the success (in writing and acting) of Natasha’s character coming out as a true person instead of the protagonist/narrator’s idiot stick figure with no soul.

 I think Carrie’s motives were mixed. Yes, she wanted to apologize to improve her reputation/karma. She selfishly had a problem with someone who travelled in her circles/aspirational circles hating her and gossiping about her. She’s particularly bothered at how Natasha whispers to her lunchmate before leaving the restaurant angrily in Natasha’s first scene in the ep. However I do think she also felt bad that her actions caused such pain and she was honestly guilty. She already knew Natasha hated her and has powerful dirt on her but mid way through the ep when Samantha says Natasha and Big got divorced, Carrie has a powerful burst of guilt and that’s what resolved her to go through the humiliation of apologizing to a woman that Carrie’s ego demanded be the “bad guy” in the epic Carrie/Big drama playing in Carrie’s head. That humiliation isn’t nothing. Carrie can feel empathy- she just requires bombshells like how she caused a divorce to think about it  

There are different schools of thought on whether an apology to someone you could easily never see again is more healing or hurtful. There’s no easy answer and it can change. But generally I think it’s worth a shot to apologize and try for healing. So on Carrie’s side in the making the apology. But yes, she was rude in how she made it. Never considering the less invasive approach of writing an apology letter and waiting for a response. Performatively drinking Natasha’s water because she wanted to underscore how this was hard for her. And worst of all, eagerly leaning into Natasha’s first “I’m sorry too.” Because Carrie did feel bad and knew her actions were wrong but she was desperate for any allowance that she was the innocent victim and that partially drove the apology.

Awesome scene. If the show took this approach more often with other characters breaking Carrie’s narrator/protagonist monopoly and Carrie dealing with that, she could have been one of my favorite characters of all time. But alas, SATC is brilliant but as a hilarious, heartfelt, sunny and pretty rom com. Not a dark character drama. So I end up preferring Carrie’s funnier, more likable friends. 

Once again, I really love your take on things and agree with most of it. I'm still Team Carrie, but I I see her shortcomings, and I think she was really lucky to have a group of friends who adored her almost in spite of herself. They are like family - we all have family that we love despite their very irksome personality quirks, flaws, shortcomings, etc. Carrie starting to talk about herself with barely a nod to Miranda's pain is very familiar to me - I have family who behave similarly, including one close family member who I love dearly, even though she often manages to make family functions about her and whatever "ordeal" she is going through. 

[ByTor]

38 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

They are like family - we all have family that we love despite their very irksome personality quirks, flaws, shortcomings, etc.

You know what they say, friends are the family we choose :)  While Carrie is mega-flawed, I can still enjoy watching her as a character.  In real life, though, there is no way I could stay friends with someone like her.

@Gothish520, I am enjoying your take on the series!

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

You know what they say, friends are the family we choose :)  While Carrie is mega-flawed, I can still enjoy watching her as a character.  In real life, though, there is no way I could stay friends with someone like her.

@Gothish520, I am enjoying your take on the series!

Thank you @ByTor! I am really enjoying reading everyone else's thoughts too. I can't believe it's taken me this long to get around to watching this series, as it's been on my list for years, lol!

[Gothish520]

On 4/3/2018 at 11:18 AM, Inquisitionist said:

I was trying not to spoil it for you.  ;-)

Thank you @Inquisitionist! I have a feeling I've got a few more surprises coming, lol!

Edited April 4, 2018 by Gothish520
spelling

[Melancholy]

I’ve been chuckling about the bullshit bagels scene since it came up. “Look! You didn’t even bring cream cheese.” Iconic. Shes just amazing in that whole ep.

“OH! You're gonna cure A.I.D.S.?! GOOD FOR YOU CHARLOTTE! Just don't be too disappointed if all you wind up with is a pretty ceramic mug with Trey's name on it.“

”You get behind your choice!”

”Yeah, I’m the bad guy. And he’s the good guy. And the bad guy just has to take it.”

”I’d shrug but it hurts.”

S4 Miranda is Peak Miranda.