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The Good; ALL OF IT! Just wonderful, love it to death, amongst many favourite bits have to be Dawn falling off the audience stands, Dawn's lap-dance, Dawn's cat-fight, Buffy seducing RJ, the split-screen stuff, Spike and Buffy wrestling over the rocket launcher (see, told you he was useful), Buffy subtly screwing Dawn over for RJ's affections, Xander's KISS plan for getting the jacket back, the list goes on!

The Bad; Nada, it's all terrific! Actually rather stupid that D'Hoffryn has just 'changed his mind' and now wants Anya killed. Did he want her to suffer for a while or is he in league with The First? Then again the demon might be sent by someone else Anya wronged now that D'Hoffryn no longer protects her?

Best line; Xander (reminding Spike of their 'plan') "Grab it!"

Women good/men bad; RJ's dad used his enchanted jacket to seduce the girls (in fairness to RJ and his brother they don't know that, they just think they're popular because they're good-looking football stars). One question, 23 year old teaching assistant Buffy seduces 16 year old RJ (statuatory rape in California), every schoolboy's fantasy. If it was Dawn and a male staff member, what would we think?

Jeez!; I know it's hysterically funny but Dawn's cheer-leading routine just makes me cringe, you feel for her every time. Which of us haven't embarrassed ourselves trying to impress the object of our affections? You also feel bad for Buffy when a distraught Dawn cuts up her outfit. Buffy implies that Joyce would be ashamed to see how Dawn is acting but rapidly realises that this is a step too far and takes it back. Then again when you look at Buffy and Spike and 'teenage' Joyce and Ripper you wonder if she'd actually be shocked at all? Maybe it runs in the Summer's family?

Kinky dinky;

Dawn in a cheerleader costume (Xander hopes Buffy get's a new one), giving RJ a lap-dance then has a great big girly cat-fight complete with hair pulling, scratching and rolling around on top of one another.

Buffy puts on her plaid schoolgirl skirt and a blouse (to make herself look younger?) and get's it on with RJ on the school desk. Buffy describes Dawn as a slut-bag/hussy and thinks should go down to the docks and wait for the fleet to come in. Is that how she supported herself in LA prior to waitressing in 'Anne'? Dawn thinks Buffy is hot and is seemingly envious that she has 'sex that's rough'

Captain Subtext; In a riposte to the evidence for being Bi Willow wants to turn RJ into a girl so she can love him. Then again Willow says her attraction isn't about physical presence which is interesting when you think of her later comments

Spoiler

to Kennedy that she fell in love with 'A woman rather than women'.

When Anya points out that RJ's 'physical presence has a penis' Willow says she can work around it. Like Xander she confesses a sexual attraction to Dawn 'Right there with you buddy!". Spike is meanwhile back in the closet, at Xanders? RJ's brother was worried that he found poetry under his younger brother's bed. Spike seems fascinated by the 'Angel' figurines at Lance's house.


Total number of scoobies: 6, Anya and Spike back in the fold

Scoobies shot: Buffy produces the rocket launcher Xander procured for her in 'Innocence'. You can't help but think that might have been useful against Glory and Adam and especially

Spoiler

The Beast which AI are currently battling.


Dawn the bashful virgin; Not any more, Joyce's little girl is all slutted up and hot-to-trot! It's a bit much that Buffy criticises Dawn's outfit considering some of the stuff SHE used to wear in season 1&2, the leopardskin miniskirt from BBB as exhibit A (and that was BEFORE she got hit with Xander's love whammy!)

What the fanficcers thought; The cliché of an enchanted object or spell going wrong making one character irresistible to all is a feature of more fics than you can shake a stick at!

Notches on the Scooby bedpost? What happens between Buffy and RJ before Xander bursts in or indeed after he leaves? (Check out the little 'We've still got time' look they trade when Xander leaves). Put him down as a possible. And RJ and Dawn? What did they get up to before The Bronze? Without any evidence we must presume Dawn is still 'hymenally challenged' in the words of 'Clueless' (Alicia Silverstone is in 'Batman and Robin with Chris O'Donnell who's in NCIS; LA with MT so in 3) at least in the Bill Clinton sense.

Buffy and Dawn more than sisters; Buffy's love for Dawn seems to overcome the power of the spell again implying a deeper connection between her and Dawn than just sisters.

Questions and observations; Note Buffy still drives Joyce's Geekmobile. Badly! Oz's old favourite 'The Theme from a Summer Place' is used for when the girls fall in love (Troy Donahue is in A Summer's Place and in CryBaby with Johnny Depp who is in Ed Wood with Juliet Landau so in 3) whilst when we switch to split screen the music get's very Charlie's Angels, who doesn't love a bit of funk guitar? (Kate Jackson is in Ally McBeal with Armin Shimerman so in 2)  . We know that CC doesn't have a sister but wouldn't it be wonderful if the head cheerleader was her cousin or something? Did RJ's brother know Daryl Epps? If Xander was on the SDH swim-team shouldn't he have his own athletics jacket? Dawn refers to Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch, been hanging with Xander WAAAYY too much! (John Cleese is in Will and Grace with Seth Green so in 2) Buffy's hair looks very similar to SMG's porn star character's in Southland Tales. Love Xander's grin at remembering BBB and nice to see some old characters plus Willow's embarrassed reaction and Anya's look of daggers. Also like the Xander/Spike double act, one of only 2 times Xander takes charge of the Scoobies, anyone name me the other? Buffy does like her poetry enthusiasts, I wonder if 

Spoiler

the Immortal was one?


Marks out of 10; 10/10, I know a lot of people don't like this one too much but I love it, in a pretty serious season it's such a fun, amusing romp, could only be better if Faith, Joyce and Tara were present. The first ep I watched this season and then immediately went back and watched it all again then watched it for a third time the morning after.

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7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Marks out of 10; 10/10,

Since when do we celebrate the total lack of originality with such high marks? One more attempt to "recreate" the spirit of the earliers seasons, openly stealing from older episodes (BB&B to be precise). Quite lame attempt, I must say. True, this ep is not as bad as many others from the two final seasons, but... 10 out of 10?!  

Speaking about logical consistency. Buffy, Willow, Anya and probably many other women/girls fell for RJ wearin' his "enchanted jacket" after being in close proximity to the object of their desire. Dawnie OTOH fell in love with the guy after she spotted him from a distance. Both Buffy and Willow were watching RJ clad in his magic jacket from afar at The Bronze, yet they had to interact with him closely to become his lovesick fools.  Did the spell or whatever have a different impact on 16-year-old virgins and more mature women with sexual experience? You tell me.

Though I like Xander taking the lead (one of very few times) while the girls were incapacitated, one decent decision on the writers' part apparently can't fix quite  unoriginal episode.

Willow suggested RJ's soul was in his ass. Well, I guess it is exactly where the writers put their heads while writing that and many other eps of the season.

Edited by lembergwatcher
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A hoot and a holler and IMO the best episode of the season.  Dock it one point for some cringworthiness in the first half (Dawn's cheerleader "audition" is too horrific for words and it takes too damn long for Buffy to fall under RJ's spell) and another for stealing a maguffin so blatantly that we have to flashback to the earlier use (and that 16mm footage from BB&B in the middle of 35mm-land here just looks awkward, visually)…

…but, at the end of the day™, a maguffin is just a maguffin.  The episode still works, it's still hilarious, and it's the first one since Where the Wild Things Are, a "mere" 54 episodes past (the entirety of the high school years, almost!) to end on a happy note!  If that's not worth ice cream, and an 8/10 rating, I don't know what is :)

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Best line; Xander (reminding Spike of their 'plan') "Grab it!"

I think I'd have to go with Willow's reaction to Anya's claim to have seen RJ's soul:  "He was walking away! So unless his soul was in his ass…"

(Yes, there's probably a Spike joke there.  No, I'm not going to make it.)

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Kate Jackson is in Ally McBeal with Armin Shimerman so in 2

Presumably they were in separate episodes, so IMO you have to go through the regular cast (Kate was with Callista Flockhart, Callista was with Armin) to get there.  Otherwise it's just cheating.

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

amongst many favourite bits have to be Dawn falling off the audience stands

Bonus points because this came right after Dawnie tried to equate Xander leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's trying to rape Buffy.  Which, not even in the same zip code.  So, suck it, Shiny McWhiny!

That said, she did look very hot in the "paint" top at the Bronze.  Another case of Buffy having a closet-full of slut-wear (see the outfit she apparently loans to Willow in Halloween) or more fruit of the five-finger discount?  (Given that I doubt Buffy bought that for the Dawnster.)  Hmm…

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike and Buffy wrestling over the rocket launcher

The best part being Wood working obliviously in the foreground (with his little yuppie fan whirling away) and only looking out after the action is over.  Great comic timing.

Edited by Halting Hex
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19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Since when do we celebrate the total lack of originality with such high marks? One more attempt to "recreate" the spirit of the earliers seasons, openly stealing from older episodes (BB&B to be precise). Quite lame attempt, I must say. True, this ep is not as bad as many others from the two final seasons, but... 10 out of 10?!  

Speaking about logical consistency. Buffy, Willow, Anya and probably many other women/girls fell for RJ wearin' his "enchanted jacket" after being in close proximity to the object of their desire. Dawnie OTOH fell in love with the guy after she spotted him from a distance. Both Buffy and Willow were watching RJ clad in his magic jacket from afar at The Bronze, yet they had to interact with him closely to become his lovesick fools.  Did the spell or whatever have a different impact on 16-year-old virgins and more mature women with sexual experience? You tell me.

Though I like Xander taking the lead (one of very few times) while the girls were incapacitated, one decent decision on the writers' part apparently can't fix quite  unoriginal episode.

Willow suggested RJ's soul was in his ass. Well, I guess it is exactly where the writers put their heads while writing that and many other eps of the season.

It is a retread but a brilliant one much like Tabula Rusa is successfully reworked into Spin the Bottle given its' own unique quality. And yes, I think virgin 'hormone bomb' Dawnie in the throes of her first amore is probably affected more deeply than the others. 

16 hours ago, secnarf said:

I didn't like the premise in BB&B and I like it even less here.

Blasphemy, BBB is the ep which made me a fan, it's a tour de force for Nic and I still smile just thinking about it. 

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14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

A hoot and a holler and IMO the best episode of the season.  Dock it one point for some cringworthiness in the first half (Dawn's cheerleader "audition" is too horrific for words and it takes too damn long for Buffy to fall under RJ's spell) and another for stealing a maguffin so blatantly that we have to flashback to the earlier use (and that 16mm footage from BB&B in the middle of 35mm-land here just looks awkward, visually)…

…but, at the end of the day™, a maguffin is just a maguffin.  The episode still works, it's still hilarious, and it's the first one since Where the Wild Things Are, a "mere" 54 episodes past (the entirety of the high school years, almost!) to end on a happy note!  If that's not worth ice cream, and an 8/10 rating, I don't know what is :)

I think I'd have to go with Willow's reaction to Anya's claim to have seen RJ's soul:  "He was walking away! So unless his soul was in his ass…"

(Yes, there's probably a Spike joke there.  No, I'm not going to make it.)

Presumably they were in separate episodes, so IMO you have to go through the regular cast (Kate was with Callista Flockhart, Callista was with Armin) to get there.  Otherwise it's just cheating.

Bonus points because this came right after Dawnie tried to equate Xander leaving Anya at the altar with Spike's trying to rape Buffy.  Which, not even in the same zip code.  So, suck it, Shiny McWhiny!

That said, she did look very hot in the "paint" top at the Bronze.  Another case of Buffy having a closet-full of slut-wear (see the outfit she apparently loans to Willow in Halloween) or more fruit of the five-finger discount?  (Given that I doubt Buffy bought that for the Dawnster.)  Hmm…

The best part being Wood working obliviously in the foreground (with his little yuppie fan whirling away) and only looking out after the action is over.  Great comic timing.

Depends how you play the game, I allow myself actors in different eps and also include the Buffy movie. I don't allow myself voice work (unless trying to link it to another piece of voice work), past footage or people appearing as themselves, (otherwise SMG on SNL would make it all too easy).

Yes 2 terrible things but no comparison but Xander did his with a soul? I like to think Buffy has a wardrobe full of hussy clothes. 

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By that point I've already resented Buffy Summers with a passion. I really don't like people (on-screen or in the real life) who try to look good and caring at the expence of others. Buffy knew Xander's attitude towards her bleached obsession very well, yet she made Xander shelter the skinny vamp. If she cared so much and Spikey's precious sooooooouuul really mattered, why couldn't Buffy let her former lover stay with her, Willow and Dawn at Revello Drive? 'Cause I can't find any reason why it had to be Xander of all people stuck with an attempted rapist as his flatmate. What, Buffy didn't feel safe enough under the same roof with Captain Peroxide??? Very unlikely, but if so, her behaviour in that situation was either hypocritical (I'm not feelin' safe with Mr. Soul so let Xander pay for my generosity instead) or illogical (Buffy expected the bleached perv to look after Dawnie despite the rape attempt in the previous season).

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Well, Buffy knows that Spike can hit her and might be able to attack Dawn. Whereas Xander is theoretically protected by the chip.

Which makes her limited in her imagination (she didn't know that Spike could hit her before he did; maybe things have changed again) and a presumptuous asshole towards her "friend", but it's not as if she's operating completely without facts.  Based on what she knows, Xander's place is the slightly-safer option.  

Not that I wouldn't be pissed off as anything were I Xander, though…

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What happened to Crawford Street Mansion? Or Giles' apartment? Plenty of space for Spikey and quite a safe option for all the Scoobs. Not that safe for the rest of Sunnydale's populace though

Spoiler

but even sharing an appartment with Xander (the potential witness) didn't prevent Spike from killing people. He could have either killed his victims at his apartment if he lived alone, or done this elsewhere while sharing the flat with someone else.

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Well, I guess that Xander is supposed to keep an eye on Spike, which would be different from just letting him roam free.

Spoiler

Didn't really work out so well for Holden, Charlotte, Linda, and the rest, though.  Bad Xander!  And you were supposed to make such a good prison guard (per WML1).

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6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Or Giles' apartment?

Since Giles has to (a) sleep on Buffy's couch and (b) get a hotel room when he returns from England in the beginning of Season 6, I guess he either just let the apartment go (i.e. moved out completely, shipping his stuff to England) or (b) is subletting it to someone. Either way, his apartment is not available.

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21 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

By that point I've already resented Buffy Summers with a passion. I really don't like people (on-screen or in the real life) who try to look good and caring at the expence of others. Buffy knew Xander's attitude towards her bleached obsession very well, yet she made Xander shelter the skinny vamp. If she cared so much and Spikey's precious sooooooouuul really mattered, why couldn't Buffy let her former lover stay with her, Willow and Dawn at Revello Drive? 'Cause I can't find any reason why it had to be Xander of all people stuck with an attempted rapist as his flatmate. What, Buffy didn't feel safe enough under the same roof with Captain Peroxide??? Very unlikely, but if so, her behaviour in that situation was either hypocritical (I'm not feelin' safe with Mr. Soul so let Xander pay for my generosity instead) or illogical (Buffy expected the bleached perv to look after Dawnie despite the rape attempt in the previous season).

I can never understand people who dislike our wonderful heroine (or why they keep watching the show if they do?). Buffy probably wanted Spike with Xander so they weren't under the same roof together after the rape.  

20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

What happened to Crawford Street Mansion? Or Giles' apartment? Plenty of space for Spikey and quite a safe option for all the Scoobs. Not that safe for the rest of Sunnydale's populace though

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but even sharing an appartment with Xander (the potential witness) didn't prevent Spike from killing people. He could have either killed his victims at his apartment if he lived alone, or done this elsewhere while sharing the flat with someone else.

It's not just a place, they need someone to watch over him. 

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49 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

why they keep watching the show if they do?

a) force of habit

b) remembrance of a better Buffy (and a better Buffy) and hope that things can change again

c) delusions that this was all some big plan and there'd be a reset to the show we once loved.  Makes no sense to rewatch it, I agree (hence the reason I've basically flushed the Dawnverse from my rotation), but once upon a time, there was still hope.

d) deep devotion to Willow and/or Xander and a blind determination to see them safely through to the end.

Spoiler

"Blind", get it?  Oh, are we going to have sooooo much fun when Skanky Girlz comes up, with that pointless disgusting maiming of Xander…soooo much fun!

Plus various combinations of any of the above.

But no, it went to shit, and it stayed shit.  The occasional bright spot (such as this episode) aside.  Lesson learned.  

Spoiler

(And the reason why I mostly skipped S5 of Angel.  I couldn't cut loose of Willow, Xander or even, to an extent, Slutty the Vampires Lay Her…but I didn't care that much about Wesley, so that was that.  And of course I fucking HATED both of the champ-pires by then.  Angel more than Spike, but still Spike, too.)

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2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I can never understand people who dislike our wonderful heroine (or why they keep watching the show if they do?)

You don't need to be in love with a "wonderful heroine" to like the show. I watched Buffy primarily because I loved Willow & Xander and, as Halting Hex pointed out, I still remembered the series' better days and better Buffy the character (and still had hopes everything would change for the better close to the end). And liking "our wonderful heroine" doesn't mean turning a blind eye on all her flaws and poor choices IMO.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy probably wanted Spike with Xander so they weren't under the same roof together after the rape.  

And why does everything have to be the way Buffy wants all the time? Did it ever occur to Buffy that Xander probably wasn't too excited about sharing his space with such a flatmate? Buffy feels uncomfortable under the same roof with Spike? Why does it have to be Xander's problem? If Spike's presence is so unbearable to our heroine, she can grab the stake at any time.

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Personally, I love discussing BtVS mostly because it was the first show I binge watched and I still love the first seasons. Plus, bashing the latter seasons is fun. Rewatching them, though? Nope, I am now watching bits and pieces of S7 and as always keep shaking my head and wonder how the show became such an antithesis of itself. I mean, most shows with 5+ seasons lose their way at some point but I have honestly never watched another show where the entire philosophy of the show changed and the narrative started glorifying what it had asked us to hate early on and vice versa.

But Buffy was never my favourite character, that was always Willow. That said, S1 Buffy would find S6-7 Buffy just as much of a pathetic loser as I do, IMO. If the writers can't keep their characterization consistent (understatement alert) is hardly surprising that portions of the audience will turn against the protagonists.

4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

And why does everything have to be the way Buffy wants all the time? Did it ever occur to Buffy that Xander probably wasn't too excited about sharing his space with such a flatmate? Buffy feels uncomfortable under the same roof with Spike? Why does it have to be Xander's problem?

Yes, people (usually ones who don't like early seasons Xander) so often say he matured and his willingness to not defy Buffy was a sign of that but I really disagree. There is nothing mature in going with Buffy's absurd ideas like this one.

Not to mention that Buffy's adoring gaze really doesn't hint at her being uncomfortable around Spike anyway.

Spoiler

And he spends the rest of the Season (as everyone else) in Buffy's house.

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What's interesting is that even though Xander has had Spike pawned off on him once before (Hush through A New Man…and thanks for that, Giles!) and Anya was clearly fine with having Spike around, even trying to give Spike the lamp as a housewarming (or crypt-warming) gift, once Xander gets his own place, he never even has Spike in, not even for a second, in over two years.  (We learn this because Spike has to be invited in, here.) No rewarding Spike for Dawn-sitting, no having him by for movie night, no Knight Rider marathons with chicken wings, nothing.

So Buffy knows that Xander would really, really, really not have Spike at his place…and she bullies him into it, anyway.  Gee, thanks, Buff.  She couldn't have parked him at Anya's place?  Yes, demons trying to kill Anya, I know.  But Spike can fight demons…

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My theory is that Buffy probably wants Xander to spend more time at her place babysitting Dawnie instead of "hanging out" with a little bit insane Spike. :)

Speaking of Buffy...

Quote

BUFFY
Glad Dawnie isn't here to see her precious boyfriend getting all thrusty with some slut-bag hussy—

    Did it ever occur to Buffy that maybe her precious lil' sis is merely following in the footsteps of the older one (I still remember Buffy's lap dance in When She Was Bad, after all)?

Edited by lembergwatcher
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23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

You don't need to be in love with a "wonderful heroine" to like the show. I watched Buffy primarily because I loved Willow & Xander and, as Halting Hex pointed out, I still remembered the series' better days and better Buffy the character (and still had hopes everything would change for the better close to the end). And liking "our wonderful heroine" doesn't mean turning a blind eye on all her flaws and poor choices IMO.

 

And why does everything have to be the way Buffy wants all the time? Did it ever occur to Buffy that Xander probably wasn't too excited about sharing his space with such a flatmate? Buffy feels uncomfortable under the same roof with Spike? Why does it have to be Xander's problem? If Spike's presence is so unbearable to our heroine, she can grab the stake at any time.

Because Buffy is the Slayer and she's in charge. 

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Really?  Buffy's in charge of Xander's private life?  He can't choose whom he shares his apartment with (or doesn't share it with) without her say-so?  Wow, it must suck to be him, then.

I guess he should be grateful that Buffy "lets" him date Anya, then.  (Sorry, lemberg.  You know what I mean.)

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8 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because Buffy is the Slayer and she's in charge.

Really? And can you tell me who exactly put her in charge? Who made her Queen of the World and boss of Xander and Willow? I thought the Scooby Gang was a group of friends, not some structure with strict subordination. Friendship is built on compromises and mutual respect, not constant putting pressure on the others to have everything your way.

And, mind you, Slayer doesn't equate to leader. For centuries slayers were merely a foot soldiers doin' what the Council told them to do. The only leading Buffy was fit for is cheerleading.    

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Yes, the idea that Slayers are leaders by default is nonsense. Buffy was a leader because she was good at it, once she stopped being good at it there was no reason for the Scoobies to follow mindlessly her lead yet they kept doing it. There is a reason why real world armies do not pick generals among the best sharpshooters but look for completely different skill sets. If the Watcher's Council didn't consist by and large of a bunch of clueless morons the idea of Watchers telling their respective Slayers what to do would have been perfectly sound.

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22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Really?  Buffy's in charge of Xander's private life?  He can't choose whom he shares his apartment with (or doesn't share it with) without her say-so?  Wow, it must suck to be him, then.

I guess he should be grateful that Buffy "lets" him date Anya, then.  (Sorry, lemberg.  You know what I mean.)

Buffy's the leader, she does what is best for the Scoobs, mostly. 

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Really? And can you tell me who exactly put her in charge? Who made her Queen of the World and boss of Xander and Willow? I thought the Scooby Gang was a group of friends, not some structure with strict subordination. Friendship is built on compromises and mutual respect, not constant putting pressure on the others to have everything your way.

And, mind you, Slayer doesn't equate to leader. For centuries slayers were merely a foot soldiers doin' what the Council told them to do. The only leading Buffy was fit for is cheerleading.    

Well, this feels like a discussion we should have in a later ep but Buffy is very much the leader of the group, unlike the male dominated previous Slayers. 

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yes, the idea that Slayers are leaders by default is nonsense. Buffy was a leader because she was good at it, once she stopped being good at it there was no reason for the Scoobies to follow mindlessly her lead yet they kept doing it. There is a reason why real world armies do not pick generals among the best sharpshooters but look for completely different skill sets. If the Watcher's Council didn't consist by and large of a bunch of clueless morons the idea of Watchers telling their respective Slayers what to do would have been perfectly sound.

Most Slayers aren't as good as Buffy or aren't allowed to grow into the role but she is the leader and for the most part a very good one. . 

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy's the leader, she does what is best for the Scoobs, mostly.

Even if she is (which is quite debatable), that doesn't mean she has the right to interfere in the Scoobs' private affairs, i.e. choosing whom they have to share their apartments with. Also I don't see how exactly having Spike around 

Spoiler

(let alone being knocked out by him)

was "good" for Xander. 

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22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Even if she is (which is quite debatable), that doesn't mean she has the right to interfere in the Scoobs' private affairs, i.e. choosing whom they have to share their apartments with. Also I don't see how exactly having Spike around 

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(let alone being knocked out by him)

was "good" for Xander. 

You're part of the team, it's not too much to ask for Xander to put Spike up, he's a valuable asset and it's the right thing to do. 

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Well, if it's the "right thing to do", then why doesn't Buffy do it?  They've got three bedrooms, a living room couch, and a basement;  I'm pretty sure they can manage five people (don't forget Anya) in there.

Meanwhile, Spike's in a freaking closet at Xander's.  Hardly seems fair.

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On ‎16‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:44 AM, Halting Hex said:

Well, if it's the "right thing to do", then why doesn't Buffy do it?  They've got three bedrooms, a living room couch, and a basement;  I'm pretty sure they can manage five people (don't forget Anya) in there.

Meanwhile, Spike's in a freaking closet at Xander's.  Hardly seems fair.

But she doesn't want him under the same roof as where he tried to rape her?

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Spike is a real valuable asset all right, he has only betrayed them five times or so, a real team player that Spike.

Unsouled Spike! And even he never did that after he fell in love with Buffy. 

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Let's not forget that Spike, despite his "love" for Buffy, despite his having been invited into her house (again), despite the alleged summer of Dawn-sitting (we don't know how often he actually bothered to leave his crypt, of course, and the days run longer then), and despite the two kisses in the previous two episodes (as well as the boner Spike was so kind to mention…), only moves onto house-wrecking sex after a violent fight with Buffy.  Which is a betrayal of some sort, I'd argue.

And yes, she started it (although he provoked her).  But we're talking about him, not her.

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I think "rape attempt" refers to Seeing Red, not Crush; Sparky never goes quite so far as demanding quid pro quo sex in exchange for Buffy's freedom/safety (which would be rape, yes) in 5.14.

And his offer to kill Drusilla doesn't really minimize his betrayal of Buffy, which was the original subject under discussion, IMO.

Edited by Halting Hex
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On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:24 AM, Halting Hex said:

I think "rape attempt" refers to Seeing Red, not Crush; Sparky never goes quite so far as demanding quid pro quo sex in exchange for Buffy's freedom/safety (which would be rape, yes) in 5.14.

And his offer to kill Drusilla doesn't really minimize his betrayal of Buffy, which was the original subject under discussion, IMO.

Post this however he never betrays the Scoobs, even his 

Spoiler

egg keeping in As You Were wasn't against them. 

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26 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Post this however he never betrays the Scoobs, even his 

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egg keeping in As You Were wasn't against them. 

I don't believe this needs to be spoilered since "As You Were" was in the prior season. As for Spike's actions not betraying the Scoobies, I don't agree. He is harboring eggs that will become vicious and voracious demons. Whether he's selling them overseas or to a local character, such as Warren, the damage they can do is significant. Many people could die. While Buffy can't be everywhere in the world to stop every demon, this is on her turf. Buffy almost gets killed trying to stop the demons after they hatch. That's a pretty big betrayal in my book.

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23 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I don't believe this needs to be spoilered since "As You Were" was in the prior season. As for Spike's actions not betraying the Scoobies, I don't agree. He is harboring eggs that will become vicious and voracious demons. Whether he's selling them overseas or to a local character, such as Warren, the damage they can do is significant. Many people could die. While Buffy can't be everywhere in the world to stop every demon, this is on her turf. Buffy almost gets killed trying to stop the demons after they hatch. That's a pretty big betrayal in my book.

He's selling them on, they're no threat to the Scoobs or Sunnydale (if he'd kept them properly). Don't get me wrong, he's still evil but he's no threat to the Scoobs. 

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46 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

He's selling them on, they're no threat to the Scoobs or Sunnydale (if he'd kept them properly). Don't get me wrong, he's still evil but he's no threat to the Scoobs. 

Well, he didn't keep them properly. Ergo, they were a threat to the gang, not to mention the rest of the 'Dale. And, we don't know who was the buyer or what that person planned to do w/ them. S/he could have released some of them into Sunnydale before leaving. We have no way of knowing. But, the chance exists. This makes Spike a threat to the Scoobies.

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1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

He's selling them on, they're no threat to the Scoobs or Sunnydale (if he'd kept them properly).

I don't believe it's ever stated that he's selling them out of town.  Might have been Xander's neighbors, for all we knew.

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Don't get me wrong, he's still evil but he's no threat to the Scoobs. 

Even if Spike is "only" being an accessory to the deaths of people out of town, surely that's betraying the trust Buffy's put in his behavior?  If Buffy thought Spike was profiting by causing the deaths of innocents, she would be upset about it.

At least I hope so…

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23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I don't believe it's ever stated that he's selling them out of town.  Might have been Xander's neighbors, for all we knew.

Even if Spike is "only" being an accessory to the deaths of people out of town, surely that's betraying the trust Buffy's put in his behavior?  If Buffy thought Spike was profiting by causing the deaths of innocents, she would be upset about it.

At least I hope so…

As I said, he's still evil and Buffy has no illusions about that, she just needs him and knows he can't harm people, at least directly. 

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23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

she just needs him and knows he can't harm people, at least directly. 

a) how does she "need" him?  He's useless physically, doesn't even try to help, and they (thankfully) break up in the very episode (As You Were) that we've moved on to discussing.

b) Who gives a shit whether he's killing people "directly" or indirectly?  They're still dead.  Hell of a hair to split, IMO.

Edited by Halting Hex
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24 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

As I said, he's still evil and Buffy has no illusions about that

Oh, really? Using him to babysit Dawn isn't a sign of Buffy having plenty of illusions about that? Do you think she would allow say Warren to babysit Dawn? Despite Warren being a pathetic small fry, murder-wise, compared to Spike?

Or, you know, allowing him to live after he betrays her again and again. No, illusion, no sir.

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On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:25 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Oh, really? Using him to babysit Dawn isn't a sign of Buffy having plenty of illusions about that? Do you think she would allow say Warren to babysit Dawn? Despite Warren being a pathetic small fry, murder-wise, compared to Spike?

Or, you know, allowing him to live after he betrays her again and again. No, illusion, no sir.

But Warren could hurt Dawn, Spike can't. Plus Spike may be evil but he is devoted to her. 

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:21 PM, Halting Hex said:

a) how does she "need" him?  He's useless physically, doesn't even try to help, and they (thankfully) break up in the very episode (As You Were) that we've moved on to discussing.

b) Who gives a shit whether he's killing people "directly" or indirectly?  They're still dead.  Hell of a hair to split, IMO.

He can and does fight, he is still evil and she has no illusions about his evilness, As You Were just rammed it home to her 

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35 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But Warren could hurt Dawn, Spike can't.

Sure he can, it will just hurt him a lot (according to some episodes). And he can also have somebody else do the dirty work anyway. The point is Buffy trusted him with Dawn's life even right after he had tried to rape her. The notion that she treats him like the evil serial killer that he is (or least is supposed to be) is laughable.

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3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Sure he can, it will just hurt him a lot (according to some episodes). And he can also have somebody else do the dirty work anyway. The point is Buffy trusted him with Dawn's life even right after he had tried to rape her. The notion that she treats him like the evil serial killer that he is (or least is supposed to be) is laughable.

But he wouldn't want to, she knows he loves her in his own twisted way. 

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2 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Well, he claimed to love Drusilla and Buffy too, this didn't stop him from kidnapping them. Would you trust your little sister with a serial killer who claims to love her? I know I wouldn't.

But you're not in a constant battle with supernatural evil?

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The inconvenient truth about season's central topic. Obviously, one of the "best" lines reagarding Spike's sooooouul issue.

Quote

DAWN
Yeah, what does that mean exactly—that Spike is all soul-having?

BUFFY
I don't know, but he's been through a lot, OK, and nobody's attacking—

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On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:38 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

So? If I were, that would only make my trust for someone whom I have seen murder people and betray me even dumber, wouldn't it?

Not if he can't hurt her and more to the point wouldn't because he's devoted to you. 

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We are going in circles but let me try one more time. As of Villains, Spike's "devotion" to Buffy had most recently been expressed by means of an attempted rape. Buffy saw first hand Spike's "devotion" to Drusilla led to him knocking her out and carrying her to his car, betraying his "ally" Angel in the process (and no, he didn't do it to save the world, his speech about Man Utd and so on was a big lie, he was just pissed at Angel and Dru). He then proceeded to betray Buffy herself on a number of occasions, including yet another kidnapping of the "Why don't you love me, you bitch?" variety. Explain to me how trusting someone with this kind of track record makes sense, please. The guy is not only evil but mentally unstable as well.

As for Spike not being able to hurt Dawn, first, he wasn't able to hurt Warren either which made the whole scene in Villains all kinds of ridiculous. More importantly, it would have been trivial for him to have Dawn killed by somebody else, had he wanted to do so.

Any way you slice it, the Scoobies toleration of Spike in S4-6 is a really clumsy plot armor. Episodes like No Place Like Home where neither Buffy, nor Spike show any signs of even remembering the events of the previous episode only drive home what was painfully obvious anyway.

Edited by Jack Shaftoe
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7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Buffy saw first hand Spike's "devotion" to Drusilla led to him knocking her out and carrying her to his car,

I don't think Buffy actually saw this, as she was in the process of having her ass kicked by Angel in the sword fight at this point, but she might have figured this out afterwards.  (Granted she was in a rough place emotionally, but it's "two hours on the freeway" on that bus to LA; not inconceivable that she could have spared a thought about what happened to Spike and Dru, I'll allow.)

On the other hand, she did see him utterly rhapsodize about his century with Dru in Crush…and then promptly offer to kill her on Buffy's say-so.  Stupidest "seduction" technique ever; even Buffy can figure out that this means she'd be replaceable, too.

Quote

SPIKE:  She's a Vampire Slayer!  The light to my dark, the absolute worst person for me to fall in love with!  I even stopped doing evil for her, went and got this bleeding soul!  And yet, I love you so much, I'd kill her without a second thought!  Doesn't that prove how much I love you, my sweet?

ANDREW:  Wow.  You are so cool. (beat) Can I have the coat, too?

SPIKE:  Don't push it, kid.

Edited by Halting Hex
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