Mad Men - General Discussion

[Melancholy]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's interesting to remember that if Don was still in the suburbs he totally would have had a party full of friends there. It would be like Sally's birthday party. Plenty of adults who wouldn't have felt out of place at Don's house in Ossining. In the city, though, naturally Don's home life was more his work life.

In the suburbs those people were friends because they were *there* to go to parties and social events with each other. As a businessman Don would have had plenty of acquaintances who would have been thrilled to come to a work-related get together. I'm sure nobody in the ad world would describe Don as socially inept. Ironically, Don's the character who has the clearest, most genuine friendship on the show, imo: Roger. He's also got a strong relationship with Peggy too, of course, but his relationship with Roger is exactly what most people think of when they imagine a guy having a friend. He and Roger enjoy hanging out together, they talk to each other a lot, including about important things. They even work through a patch where they're fighting. Megan has no friendship that compares to it. What she does have, naturally, is a bunch of 20-something artist types for whom parties are a big part of their life. (Peggy, also, at that point in her life has a bunch of 20-somethings.)

I thought she did invite Joan and Joan just thought she wasn't really invited because the invitation came so late? Being out of the loop during that one phase of her life, Joan didn't realize that everybody got their invitation that late. I could be remembering that wrong.

But everything else, I agree. I remember at the time I just couldn't be on her side at all. When someone tells you, seriously, that they don't enjoy birthday parties--much less surprise ones--that's something you respect. If you choose to use their birthday to have a big party where you get to perform, that's you using their birthday for yourself and making them even more repulsed by birthdays. Serves her right that she didn't get the reaction she wanted. I loved how even somebody like Lane who isn't enjoying being catty winds up being his funniest just by having to relate the experience.

It's wonderful foreshadowing when you think about it. Right away Megan uses Don (and his money) as a way to buy herself a captive audience and still winds up feeling insecure and resentful when she can't exactly hold up her own end by getting the audience reaction she wants.

Yeah, I feel like we were supposed to be amazed by it but it never really seemed to work. I remember feeling at the time that the show itself was working overtime to make Zou Bisou happen. There was a ton of publicity, they sold 45s, but it really didn't ever feel organic to me. It didn't come across to me as sexy or effortless--trying too hard, pathetic and even "flailing toothy giraffe" is closer to the mark to me.

It's not that she's so terrible, it's just that she's not good enough for it to be comfortable like it would be with a professional. No wonder it doesn't at all get the kind of love as Pete and Trudy's Charleston gets. That performance was supposed to be two amateurs who weren't claiming to be anything but. They're surprisingly good because you don't expect them to be good at all, and the actors do, I think, play the characters as having genuine fun doing it. Sure they're trying to make a good impression--you can see Pete checking for approval--but it never overwhelms the fun they seem to be having.

With Megan everyone in the room is constantly aware that this is a performance that's supposed to impress them and turn them on. The Campbells dance, of course, also slips naturally into the setting--they just wait for the Charleston to play and dance along. Megan paid the band to accompany her, choreographed her dance and shushes everyone to watch. Both performances hover on the edge of being delightful and being uncomfortable, but they wind up, imo, falling on different sides. One wins the goodwill of the audience (and even a bit of jealousy, iirc, from Harry's wife). The other becomes a funny ad world story.

Well, I don't think the adults in Ossining were Don's friends or even Betty's friends with the exception of Francine. They were all just expected to socialize as neighbors. But I agree, if Don had birthday parties in Ossining, the neighbors would have come and the office invitees would be more selective and probably just include partners and wives. 

I agree that Don is genuinely friends with Roger. I don't even know that Peggy has a big social circle outside work. That's part of why I was so ticked at her anti-Don snark. She went to a few introduction parties to Joyce's circle in early S4 and to the beach in late S4 and then, they were never heard from again. It felt like Peggy just kept up the connection with Joyce and started dating Abe. The others are never brought up post S4 and Joyce disappears in early S5. Then, there's a strong sense that Peggy's whole social life is her tight work friendships with Stan and Ginsberg and that lower ranked copywriter from CGC and love interests. And when the love interests go, she's all alone in her brownstone. 

With regard to Joan, I was signing onto the Gail/Joan theory that the day-before of same-day invite was not a real invite. To be fair to Megan, everyone got last minute invites but I don't think that last minute. (Loved Trudy's "She's impulsive. We all know that.") I'd give Megan the benefit of the doubt but then, there's the office scene of Megan guiltily trying to avoid Joan like Megan knows she insulted Joan. 

I agree with the foreshadowing argument. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

59 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Well, I don't think the adults in Ossining were Don's friends or even Betty's friends with the exception of Francine. They were all just expected to socialize as neighbors. But I agree, if Don had birthday parties in Ossining, the neighbors would have come and the office invitees would be more selective and probably just include partners and wives. 

 

Right, exactly. I originally even wrote it with "friends" in italics because obviously Don wasn't close to these people. But that's exactly the type of thing Megan is talking about anyway. She thinks Don should have a group of people he would naturally call for a party at his house and he had that. Deep connections aren't necessary. He was considered a part of the social structure of Ossining--he was probably at the top of it given that he's Don. 

But Megan's own friendships seem easily just as fraught. Not only do we see even more backstabbing, there's  presumably an implication that she's friends with these people because they're her ties to the acting world after she quits. In S6 Don and Megan have sort of parallel conflicted friendships with the Rosens. Don seems to genuinely like and get along with Arthur...but he's also having an affair with his wife. Megan turns to Sylvia for sympathy...but Sylvia is inwardly cringing because she's having an affair with her husband. And that third couple that's at their house on New Year's Eve...are they good friends? Or just a version of the Ossining social circle? Seems like the latter. 

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

Then, there's a strong sense that Peggy's whole social life is her tight work friendships with Stan and Ginsberg and that lower ranked copywriter from CGC and love interests. And when the love interests go, she's all alone in her brownstone. 

Yup, Peggy's totally like Don there. I mean, they're not in high school. They don't have to prove something by having a big book full of people who are dying to come to their party. Neither of them are social butterflies who work at those connections. Like, for instance, Pete and Trudy seem to be--Pete keeps up all his relationships from college etc., but that's not because Pete's cooler than Don (LOL) but because he's been raised to see social connections as a responsibility both as a Dykman/Campbell and then as an account man. 

[Inquisitionist]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

He was considered a part of the social structure of Ossining--he was probably at the top of it given that he's Don. 

Back in S2, wasn't someone wooing Don and Betty to join the country club?  I'm thinking of the Memorial Day episode where Don stands uncomfortably among the other vets as Sally stares up adoringly at him.

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I really think that party was about Megan's desire to perform in front of an audience.  She wants to believe it's for Don  but it's just a precursor to Megan getting back to acting.    At this point, Megan was still lying to herself about being over her acting aspirations.  

 

7 hours ago, Melancholy said:

You know, maybe this is an UO, but I don't think the guest list was that pathetic. Most people who reach 40 don't have tons of besties. They spend most time with their coworkers. Especially anyone who left their hometown and didn't go to college so they don't have the friendship bonds of childhood. Many adults would invite their accountant or lawyer or primary doctor to a party. Megan's ridiculous to say that Frank was a pathetic invite because he's Don's accountant. Those types of professionals do become "very important" to adults. Frankly, this says more about how Megan regards "the help"' as a newly rich bride to assume that anyone hired by them is a pathetic invite 

The pathetic, "your life choices are shit" part is that Don was having this party organized by his twenty something bride instead of his first family. That expectation to have an apartment full of good time buddies is a mid-20s one. The 40-year old successful birthday is more about the family on the guest list. 

I find Megan and Peggy incredibly disloyal and bitchy in that conversation where they're snarking about Don's age and how many friends he has and Megan is blabbing about who in the office Don dislikes. It's bad enough on Peggy. But it's particularly infuriating because Megan is operating under the pretense that she's doing something nice for Don which he should appreciate. I can't imagine Megan would think Don "Discretion" Draper would be cool with Megan making jokes at his expense and blabbering about their private conversations with other employees. This whole birthday was just a platform for Megan to perform from the planning to Zous Bisous to making a performance out of punishing Don and Peggy for not behaving as expected. Because Megan only cares about herself. Megan throws that accusation at Don and it's inaccurate because Don cares about a bunch of people, even if he treats them badly. But with Megan, I really don't think she cared about anyone but herself. (With allowances for how she's young and may develop those bonds in the future.)

And as Megan sells her as The Ace Social Butterfly, her instincts were a complete flop. The folks in the office resented getting a last minute invitation to go to work function with all of the attendant formalities to pay homage to the king and queen when they're off the clock. (I'd resent that even though I'd be part of the pro-Don side of the office through the series.) And she didn't invite Joan who was THE ONE person who wanted to spend an evening with these people because absence makes the heart grow fonder and Joan didn't need to rest from work or meet deadlines. Most people thought the Zous Bisous thing was ridiculous and it wasn't just crass pigs like Roger and Harry joking about it in the office but Lane too. 

 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's interesting to remember that if Don was still in the suburbs he totally would have had a party full of friends there. It would be like Sally's birthday party. Plenty of adults who wouldn't have felt out of place at Don's house in Ossining. In the city, though, naturally Don's home life was more his work life.

In the suburbs those people were friends because they were *there* to go to parties and social events with each other. As a businessman Don would have had plenty of acquaintances who would have been thrilled to come to a work-related get together. I'm sure nobody in the ad world would describe Don as socially inept. Ironically, Don's the character who has the clearest, most genuine friendship on the show, imo: Roger. He's also got a strong relationship with Peggy too, of course, but his relationship with Roger is exactly what most people think of when they imagine a guy having a friend. He and Roger enjoy hanging out together, they talk to each other a lot, including about important things. They even work through a patch where they're fighting. Megan has no friendship that compares to it. What she does have, naturally, is a bunch of 20-something artist types for whom parties are a big part of their life. (Peggy, also, at that point in her life has a bunch of 20-somethings.)

I thought she did invite Joan and Joan just thought she wasn't really invited because the invitation came so late? Being out of the loop during that one phase of her life, Joan didn't realize that everybody got their invitation that late. I could be remembering that wrong.

But everything else, I agree. I remember at the time I just couldn't be on her side at all. When someone tells you, seriously, that they don't enjoy birthday parties--much less surprise ones--that's something you respect. If you choose to use their birthday to have a big party where you get to perform, that's you using their birthday for yourself and making them even more repulsed by birthdays. Serves her right that she didn't get the reaction she wanted. I loved how even somebody like Lane who isn't enjoying being catty winds up being his funniest just by having to relate the experience.

It's wonderful foreshadowing when you think about it. Right away Megan uses Don (and his money) as a way to buy herself a captive audience and still winds up feeling insecure and resentful when she can't exactly hold up her own end by getting the audience reaction she wants.

Yeah, I feel like we were supposed to be amazed by it but it never really seemed to work. I remember feeling at the time that the show itself was working overtime to make Zou Bisou happen. There was a ton of publicity, they sold 45s, but it really didn't ever feel organic to me. It didn't come across to me as sexy or effortless--trying too hard, pathetic and even "flailing toothy giraffe" is closer to the mark to me.

It's not that she's so terrible, it's just that she's not good enough for it to be comfortable like it would be with a professional. No wonder it doesn't at all get the kind of love as Pete and Trudy's Charleston gets. That performance was supposed to be two amateurs who weren't claiming to be anything but. They're surprisingly good because you don't expect them to be good at all, and the actors do, I think, play the characters as having genuine fun doing it. Sure they're trying to make a good impression--you can see Pete checking for approval--but it never overwhelms the fun they seem to be having.

With Megan everyone in the room is constantly aware that this is a performance that's supposed to impress them and turn them on. The Campbells dance, of course, also slips naturally into the setting--they just wait for the Charleston to play and dance along. Megan paid the band to accompany her, choreographed her dance and shushes everyone to watch. Both performances hover on the edge of being delightful and being uncomfortable, but they wind up, imo, falling on different sides. One wins the goodwill of the audience (and even a bit of jealousy, iirc, from Harry's wife). The other becomes a funny ad world story.

 

5 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Well, I don't think the adults in Ossining were Don's friends or even Betty's friends with the exception of Francine. They were all just expected to socialize as neighbors. But I agree, if Don had birthday parties in Ossining, the neighbors would have come and the office invitees would be more selective and probably just include partners and wives. 

I agree that Don is genuinely friends with Roger. I don't even know that Peggy has a big social circle outside work. That's part of why I was so ticked at her anti-Don snark. She went to a few introduction parties to Joyce's circle in early S4 and to the beach in late S4 and then, they were never heard from again. It felt like Peggy just kept up the connection with Joyce and started dating Abe. The others are never brought up post S4 and Joyce disappears in early S5. Then, there's a strong sense that Peggy's whole social life is her tight work friendships with Stan and Ginsberg and that lower ranked copywriter from CGC and love interests. And when the love interests go, she's all alone in her brownstone. 

With regard to Joan, I was signing onto the Gail/Joan theory that the day-before of same-day invite was not a real invite. To be fair to Megan, everyone got last minute invites but I don't think that last minute. (Loved Trudy's "She's impulsive. We all know that.") I'd give Megan the benefit of the doubt but then, there's the office scene of Megan guiltily trying to avoid Joan like Megan knows she insulted Joan. 

I agree with the foreshadowing argument. 

After reading all your posts, I am beginning to think that planning the surprise party was actual a passive power play on the part of Megan.  She had moved up in the world from the pretty secretary to getting the biggest prize in the office...the mysterious , handsome, and rich Don Draper.  Also, unlike Jane, Don was already divorced, so there really was no scandal, beyond the age difference.  She must have felt like a queen and wanted her moment in the sun surrounded by admirers in her fabulous penthouse apartment.

It is also galling because Don Draper birthday was on June first, not Dick Whitman's.  It was day that was filled with guilt by Don (that he stole another man's identity) and not a day to celebrated.

I also think the gossipy vibe with Peggy is her trying to tell herself she does not want special treatment, but deep down inside (something she probably does not want to admit to herself) she relishes her new found power as the big boss's new wife.

She is also supremely confident in her beauty and charm...after all she nabbed Don Draper.

I mean she invited the employees at the last moment, knowing that most of them did not have the luxury of refusal.

It is funny the party that she thought would be awesome was awkward and embarrassing for all those involved and the man she married turned out not be such a prize after all...though she did walk away a million dollars richer and her mother took all the furniture.

[Melancholy]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup, Peggy's totally like Don there. I mean, they're not in high school. They don't have to prove something by having a big book full of people who are dying to come to their party. Neither of them are social butterflies who work at those connections. Like, for instance, Pete and Trudy seem to be--Pete keeps up all his relationships from college etc., but that's not because Pete's cooler than Don (LOL) but because he's been raised to see social connections as a responsibility both as a Dykman/Campbell and then as an account man. 

Sure. That's one thing I loved about Mad Men and find so relatable- how introversion vs. extroversion is complex and not straight forward. I think Peggy is more traditionally  extroverted than Don. She needs a preferably familiar person to bounce her ideas off of and relate to and bond with. However, Peggy will try harder to find that in a boyfriend or father-figure than a friend. To some extent, that's her Daddy-issues but it's also because she's not a traditional extrovert that seeks anyone for camaraderie because she's buzzing with the need for all types of relationships ala Pete or Roger or Megan. Instead, she's hoping for some leading figure to embrace her and inform her of her value...and then, back off from being the leading figure when she needs that. Meanwhile, like Peggy, Don reaches for a familiar person to bond with and preferably a girlfriend or mother-figure but he can't sustain those relationships as well as Peggy because of his own issues and because he's more of an introvert. Don turns to strangers because they're animated enough to provide him any of the sex/insight/conversation/adventure that he's looking for but they're not an investment. Peggy and Don need time to isolate themselves from company in order to restore themselves so they love movies/books/TV, but Don more so. 

One of the most curious themes for me is when Don decides to truly buddy-it-up with a-non-Roger and Anna-someone. Peggy in The Suitcase. Joan in Christmas Waltz. Lane in The Good News. Sal in Out of Town. There's a dynamic after those eps where the audience is primed to expect that Don will become that much closer with someone....but it really doesn't happen. I feel like the common answer is to just blame Don and he *is* the common factor. However, it doesn't feel that simple because in every single one of those instances, Don started the buddy-interaction with hard-core charm and/or giving stuff, the non-Don person seems to enjoy that interaction with Don, and then, the non-Don person went quiet afterwards in terms of interacting with him until there was some kind of conflict. Mainly, I think it's hard to be buddies with other people in the office when you're the King. Don generally maintains the distance because he clings to be alpha-dog. But even more, the other people in the office keep the distance too because they kind of don't want familiarity from Don on a regular basis but instead, to feel chosen by a King because they have superior merit. Familiarity ruins that. I think Don is partly more reliably friends with Roger because Roger already considers himself a King.

6 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Back in S2, wasn't someone wooing Don and Betty to join the country club?  I'm thinking of the Memorial Day episode where Don stands uncomfortably among the other vets as Sally stares up adoringly at him.

Yes. Crab Coulson of "Crab. Duck. Duck. Crab" fame. (At least, in my head.) 

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

It is funny the party that she thought would be awesome was awkward and embarrassing for all those involved and the man she married turned out not be such a prize after all...though she did walk away a million dollars richer and her mother took all the furniture.

You know, I wonder if the entire party was a bust. I know Don hated the party from the beginning to end. (I love Jon Hamm's pasted on smile when he walks into the room and sees the crowd and his performance for the rest of the party where he seems "correctly happy" but the audience who knows him best knows that he's hating every second and a lot of that is BECAUSE he's so "correctly happy.") And Zous Bisous elicited only mockery or perving from dudes- which wasn't what Megan was going for. Although, there's something VERY fucked up about how Megan smiles and laughs and *kisses Roger* after his "Don, you lucky so and so. The worst part of not getting what you want is someone else getting it" asshole speech that he dragged visibly miserable, humiliated Jane up to stand through in front of everyone. But Harry (also grossly) fantasizing about having sex with Megan with Stan is completely abhorrent to Megan. 

However, I wonder if the rest of the guests hated the party proper. Lots of people from Trudy to Pete to Peggy to Stan (which is a pretty good cross-section of the office + wives) were (rightfully) resentful at having to schlep to a work function when they're off the clock. However, the actual party seemed like it was fun for the guests. People enjoyed the real estate porn of the MegaDon apartment. The drinks were flowing fast and furious. It wasn't enough of a stiff work function that folks were stopped from like, smoking weed on the balcony or Lane from yelling drunk jokes about locking the bathroom. LOL, I was about to praise the democratization of Bert debating Vietnam with Abe and Stan and how the debate seemed enjoyable for all three but then:

Bert (in full Support Our Troops flag waving pride and admiration): So, you're telling me that this young man is coming home in a body bag for nothing!

Stan's nephew (freaked out and uncomfortable): I thought there were going to be girls here. 

But still, I think it's tough to say whether the party itself was a bust for the non-Don guests. These people may have looked like they were having fun but they're all actors in their own way. Peggy looked like she was having fun at most of the party but then, she spat out her resentments that she was at the party of a guy who didn't sell Heinz for her. So, she was probably having less fun than she appeared to until Don showed up in her line of sight as the actual target of her resentment and frustration. I think guests were making the best of being at a work event. And of course, Don's happiness at the party was the most important thing because he was the actual birthday boy and he hated it from start to finish. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Peggy and Don need time to isolate themselves from company in order to restore themselves so they love movies/books/TV, but Don more so. 

Also what I was mostly even thinking of there is that Peggy and Don love their work so their lives revolve around it. So it's funny that Megan is concerned at Don not seeming to have friends when Peggy, too, spends many a night at the office and when we see her really kicking back and relaxing with people it's usually people from work. Often at work. And that doesn't make her a loser, it just means she's work-centered. Her non-work socializing is mostly family. When she tries to date guys outside work she's either uninterested or the guy is. (Abe ultimately hated her job.)

25 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

There's a dynamic after those eps where the audience is primed to expect that Don will become that much closer with someone....but it really doesn't happen.

What a great point - I totally hadn't thought of that. But it's true. And it's never presented as really a Don problem, imo. If it's about Don it's more about, like you said, nobody feeling like they're really entitled to Don's time. But it's not like there's a scene where the person tries to continue the relationship and Don's cold or acts like it didn't happen or anything. I think they all feel like it would be weird to think they were bffs after that. But I think they all walk away appreciating Don's gesture.

25 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

However, I wonder if the rest of the guests hated the party proper. Lots of people from Trudy to Pete to Peggy to Stan (which is a pretty good cross-section of the office + wives) were (rightfully) resentful at having to schlep to a work function when they're off the clock. However, the actual party seemed like it was fun for the guests.

It definitely wasn't a big disaster like the running joke of all Mary's parties on Mary Tyler Moore, for instance. But then, if it was that much of a disaster it wouldn't have had the same affect. I think what the show was going for--and got--was more just the feeling of a disappointment, enough to cause some concern for Don and Megan. But not concern for the whole office. For them it was a night they got dragged to a party that wasn't a nightmare.

This thread also makes me think how Don and Megan - and MW too, iirc the commentary -- feel like there's a big symbol here with the white rug getting dirty as a symbol of how they let these people into their house and it damaged/ruined it. But they didn't just let these people in their house. Megan basically ordered them into the house as extras in the show she wanted to put on. She couldn't have been so clueless as to not get that they couldn't say no. So it's even more fitting that for the employees the party was fine. Megan's performance was weird, but not scarring. The people who have the worst time are Don and Megan and while they blame it on the other people at the office, it really had nothing to do with them.

Edited August 25, 2017 by sistermagpie

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Sure. That's one thing I loved about Mad Men and find so relatable- how introversion vs. extroversion is complex and not straight forward. I think Peggy is more traditionally  extroverted than Don. She needs a preferably familiar person to bounce her ideas off of and relate to and bond with. However, Peggy will try harder to find that in a boyfriend or father-figure than a friend. To some extent, that's her Daddy-issues but it's also because she's not a traditional extrovert that seeks anyone for camaraderie because she's buzzing with the need for all types of relationships ala Pete or Roger or Megan. Instead, she's hoping for some leading figure to embrace her and inform her of her value...and then, back off from being the leading figure when she needs that. Meanwhile, like Peggy, Don reaches for a familiar person to bond with and preferably a girlfriend or mother-figure but he can't sustain those relationships as well as Peggy because of his own issues and because he's more of an introvert. Don turns to strangers because they're animated enough to provide him any of the sex/insight/conversation/adventure that he's looking for but they're not an investment. Peggy and Don need time to isolate themselves from company in order to restore themselves so they love movies/books/TV, but Don more so. 

One of the most curious themes for me is when Don decides to truly buddy-it-up with a-non-Roger and Anna-someone. Peggy in The Suitcase. Joan in Christmas Waltz. Lane in The Good News. Sal in Out of Town. There's a dynamic after those eps where the audience is primed to expect that Don will become that much closer with someone....but it really doesn't happen. I feel like the common answer is to just blame Don and he *is* the common factor. However, it doesn't feel that simple because in every single one of those instances, Don started the buddy-interaction with hard-core charm and/or giving stuff, the non-Don person seems to enjoy that interaction with Don, and then, the non-Don person went quiet afterwards in terms of interacting with him until there was some kind of conflict. Mainly, I think it's hard to be buddies with other people in the office when you're the King. Don generally maintains the distance because he clings to be alpha-dog. But even more, the other people in the office keep the distance too because they kind of don't want familiarity from Don on a regular basis but instead, to feel chosen by a King because they have superior merit. Familiarity ruins that. I think Don is partly more reliably friends with Roger because Roger already considers himself a King.

Yes. Crab Coulson of "Crab. Duck. Duck. Crab" fame. (At least, in my head.) 

You know, I wonder if the entire party was a bust. I know Don hated the party from the beginning to end. (I love Jon Hamm's pasted on smile when he walks into the room and sees the crowd and his performance for the rest of the party where he seems "correctly happy" but the audience who knows him best knows that he's hating every second and a lot of that is BECAUSE he's so "correctly happy.") And Zous Bisous elicited only mockery or perving from dudes- which wasn't what Megan was going for. Although, there's something VERY fucked up about how Megan smiles and laughs and *kisses Roger* after his "Don, you lucky so and so. The worst part of not getting what you want is someone else getting it" asshole speech that he dragged visibly miserable, humiliated Jane up to stand through in front of everyone. But Harry (also grossly) fantasizing about having sex with Megan with Stan is completely abhorrent to Megan. 

However, I wonder if the rest of the guests hated the party proper. Lots of people from Trudy to Pete to Peggy to Stan (which is a pretty good cross-section of the office + wives) were (rightfully) resentful at having to schlep to a work function when they're off the clock. However, the actual party seemed like it was fun for the guests. People enjoyed the real estate porn of the MegaDon apartment. The drinks were flowing fast and furious. It wasn't enough of a stiff work function that folks were stopped from like, smoking weed on the balcony or Lane from yelling drunk jokes about locking the bathroom. LOL, I was about to praise the democratization of Bert debating Vietnam with Abe and Stan and how the debate seemed enjoyable for all three but then:

Bert (in full Support Our Troops flag waving pride and admiration): So, you're telling me that this young man is coming home in a body bag for nothing!

Stan's nephew (freaked out and uncomfortable): I thought there were going to be girls here. 

But still, I think it's tough to say whether the party itself was a bust for the non-Don guests. These people may have looked like they were having fun but they're all actors in their own way. Peggy looked like she was having fun at most of the party but then, she spat out her resentments that she was at the party of a guy who didn't sell Heinz for her. So, she was probably having less fun than she appeared to until Don showed up in her line of sight as the actual target of her resentment and frustration. I think guests were making the best of being at a work event. And of course, Don's happiness at the party was the most important thing because he was the actual birthday boy and he hated it from start to finish. 

 

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also what I was mostly even thinking of there is that Peggy and Don love their work so their lives revolve around it. So it's funny that Megan is concerned at Don not seeming to have friends when Peggy, too, spends many a night at the office and when we see her really kicking back and relaxing with people it's usually people from work. Often at work. And that doesn't make her a loser, it just means she's work-centered. Her non-work socializing is mostly family. When she tries to date guys outside work she's either uninterested or the guy is. (Abe ultimately hated her job.)

What a great point - I totally hadn't thought of that. But it's true. And it's never presented as really a Don problem, imo. If it's about Don it's more about, like you said, nobody feeling like they're really entitled to Don's time. But it's not like there's a scene where the person tries to continue the relationship and Don's cold or acts like it didn't happen or anything. I think they all feel like it would be weird to think they were bffs after that. But I think they all walk away appreciating Don's gesture.

It definitely wasn't a big disaster like the running joke of all Mary's parties on Mary Tyler Moore, for instance. But then, if it was that much of a disaster it wouldn't have had the same affect. I think what the show was going for--and got--was more just the feeling of a disappointment, enough to cause some concern for Don and Megan. But not concern for the whole office. For them it was a night they got dragged to a party that wasn't a nightmare.

This thread also makes me think how Don and Megan - and MW too, iirc the commentary -- feel like there's a big symbol here with the white rug getting dirty as a symbol of how they let these people into their house and it damaged/ruined it. But they didn't just let these people in their house. Megan basically ordered them into the house as extras in the show she wanted to put on. She couldn't have been so clueless as to not get that they couldn't say no. So it's even more fitting that for the employees the party was fine. Megan's performance was weird, but not scarring. The people who have the worst time are Don and Megan and while they blame it on the other people at the office, it really had nothing to do with them.

I think everyone had a good time, but the failure was that it did not have the intended effect.  Megan thought this would cement her status as Don's wife, but it proved how little she cared to know about the man she married.

Her performance was cringe worthy because everyone in that room knew Don would hate it, except her.  Remember Don has a very messed up virgin/whore complex regarding his wives.  He needs them to be beautiful, but more importantly maternal and classy.

When the party is over, Megan can not believe that Don is not thrilled with "what she did for him".  Later she figures out her performance was not received like she hoped, with Harry's lewd comments.

One can make the argument that this is when she starts to sour on advertising..she simply can not stand the people around it, unlike her artsy friends.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

When the party is over, Megan can not believe that Don is not thrilled with "what she did for him".  Later she figures out her performance was not received like she hoped, with Harry's lewd comments.

One can make the argument that this is when she starts to sour on advertising..she simply can not stand the people around it, unlike her artsy friends.

Megan's issue with people getting lewd about her is so interesting. Usually on this show, it's a cut and dried issue for me that the guys are being pigs when they start bringing sex and appearance into a conversation with a woman who had just been playing a non-sexual role as a secretary/wife/shop girl/etc. The whole "She was asking for flirtation based on her clothes or behavior" is hardly ever justified. But I do think it's more complicated when it comes to actresses/acting, mainly for actors trying to play or get sexy roles. They are trying to get roles based on their looks. I don't see how they expect that to occur without said looks being scrutinized and discussed. That said, acting in sexy roles is just a surface performance. You look great and mime sex and become a fantasy for viewers but there's no need to actually have sex to fufill that role and people with quirky looks can be sexy actors but they need to be aware of the uphill battle there. So, I wind up in the middle with Megan where I find her issues twirling for the Little Murderers director ridiculous but I'm basically on her side on resisting sleeping with Arlene and Harry to get ahead. Not because she has integrity that makes her better than the casting couch (because Don) but because just because she put out with one guy to get ahead doesn't obligate her to do it any more. With regard to Harry, he and Stan shouldn't have been saying it in the workplace but frankly, Megan as much as said that she wanted that reaction. 

The "Megan soured on the people in advertising" issue goes directly to Don and Peggy's fight in Lady Lazarus. 

Peggy: I spent more time training her than you did and eight months defending her.

Don: Defending her? She was great at it!

Peggy: She thinks advertising is stupid.

Don: No, she thinks the peopIe she worked with are cynicaI and petty. 

Peggy wants to say Megan hated advertising, itself, so that Don no longer negatively compares Peggy to Megan after Peggy flopped at a client presentation that Megan excelled in. Megan needs to seem firmly off the board because she hates advertising and Peggy wants Megan's dislike of advertising to seem strident enough that Megan sucks compared to Peggy regardless of the "Taste it" performance. Don, on the other hand, doesn't want to accept that Megan doesn't like advertising because that's what they bonded over. If he didn't have some creative meeting of the minds with Megan, what's the point of their relationship? Instead Don does what he frequently does to feel better about himself- he casts himself as The Other to everyone else's small, petty, openly grasping bullshit. 

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Peggy: I spent more time training her than you did and eight months defending her.

Don: Defending her? She was great at it!

This is such an interesting exchange because Don's certainly right that she was great at it, as we see proved by Heinz. But Peggy did still have to spend time defending her because of her relationship with Don and how that played out in the workplace-including her coming and going whenever she wanted.

MW is really good at writing arguments where he's on both sides!

Though of course, we see in the end that Don really did agree with Peggy regarding how Megan thought about advertising.

33 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

With regard to Harry, he and Stan shouldn't have been saying it in the workplace but frankly, Megan as much as said that she wanted that reaction. 

Yeah, it's funny how there's basically two reactions we see and both of them are cringeworthy. Harry is gross in what he said, but it should make Megan think about what she was thinking herself. If the performance was for Don, she could have done it in private with a recorded back-up. Clearly it wasn't just for Don, it was a performance for everyone. That makes her a performer, just like any other performer people would have seen in the office. Harry would have said the same thing about Ann-Margaret if she performed for them. Megan walked a really fine line in how she expected people to react.

But on the other hand there's Lane who wasn't being sexual at all, and Megan probably would have hated that even more. Because he was basically just saying that Megan performed her whole marriage to Don (hot sexy young girl does cutesy sexy song and dance for executive who's into it but doesn't really need the whole office knowing just how much) and it was awkward as well no matter how cute she is.

Megan just didn't seem to think about how the performance would be taken except for the moment of applause and attention. Except to maybe think it would lead to a permanent afterglow of admiration. The one thing she wasn't prepared for was to laugh the whole thing off as a joke in response to either reaction.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

This is such an interesting exchange because Don's certainly right that she was great at it, as we see proved by Heinz. But Peggy did still have to spend time defending her because of her relationship with Don and how that played out in the workplace-including her coming and going whenever she wanted.

MW is really good at writing arguments where he's on both sides!

Though of course, we see in the end that Don really did agree with Peggy regarding how Megan thought about advertising.

Yeah, it's funny how there's basically two reactions we see and both of them are cringeworthy. Harry is gross in what he said, but it should make Megan think about what she was thinking herself. If the performance was for Don, she could have done it in private with a recorded back-up. Clearly it wasn't just for Don, it was a performance for everyone. That makes her a performer, just like any other performer people would have seen in the office. Harry would have said the same thing about Ann-Margaret if she performed for them. Megan walked a really fine line in how she expected people to react.

But on the other hand there's Lane who wasn't being sexual at all, and Megan probably would have hated that even more. Because he was basically just saying that Megan performed her whole marriage to Don (hot sexy young girl does cutesy sexy song and dance for executive who's into it but doesn't really need the whole office knowing just how much) and it was awkward as well no matter how cute she is.

Megan just didn't seem to think about how the performance would be taken except for the moment of applause and attention. Except to maybe think it would lead to a permanent afterglow of admiration. The one thing she wasn't prepared for was to laugh the whole thing off as a joke in response to either reaction.

I'm like 85% on Don's side in the Just Taste It skit. But yes, this bit is where the 15% where I'm on Peggy's side. 

Ken: Do you think Megan wouId come back and do it in the office?

Peggy (glaring at Don): Megan is not the probIem.

Don: You didn't want her there! You were threatened by everything about her.

Peggy: I spent more time training her than you did and eight months defending her. 

Peggy fucked up and didn't do her job to memorize the lines, including the 3 word tag line. I see no excuse for that. Unlike Peggy, I don't believe it was Don's role to practice with Peggy into her memorizing the script. And then when she failed, she should have apologized or failing that, taken Don's rightful and rather mild "Do you think we can find an actress who can remember 'Just taste it'" and Ken's earnest "Can we get Megan back?" effort to solve the problem in the skit. Which was Peggy.  

But yes, Don chose to take the discussion in a totally personal, inappropriate and even mean place of Peggy being threatened by Megan's awesomeness. Don had every right to chew Peggy out for her performance but he didn't have the right to work through his marital issues at Peggy's expense. Given that, Id ordinarily say that Peggy's defense of Megan was off-topic and so mild and easy (like telling Stan and Ginsberg to listen her, or abruptly not finding sexual banter about her funny) that it didn't rate a mention. She wasn't championing a hard case but rather a favored copywriter for Peggy's own reasons. But actually it did because Don made Peggy's feelings about Megan the topic. Then, I have a problem with Peggy putting words in Megan's mouth because she's jumped on this as a more favorable conversation than her Cool Whip failure. The way that Peggy spits out that Megan thinks advertising is stupid is pretty vicious. 

[caitmcg]

46 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I'm like 85% on Don's side in the Just Taste It skit. But yes, this bit is where the 15% where I'm on Peggy's side. 

Ken: Do you think Megan wouId come back and do it in the office?

Peggy (glaring at Don): Megan is not the probIem.

Don: You didn't want her there! You were threatened by everything about her.

Peggy: I spent more time training her than you did and eight months defending her. 

...

But yes, Don chose to take the discussion in a totally personal, inappropriate and even mean place of Peggy being threatened by Megan's awesomeness. Don had every right to chew Peggy out for her performance but he didn't have the right to work through his marital issues at Peggy's expense. Given that, Id ordinarily say that Peggy's defense of Megan was off-topic and so mild and easy (like telling Stan and Ginsberg to listen her, or abruptly not finding sexual banter about her funny) that it didn't rate a mention. She wasn't championing a hard case but rather a favored copywriter for Peggy's own reasons. But actually it did because Don made Peggy's feelings about Megan the topic. Then, I have a problem with Peggy putting words in Megan's mouth because she's jumped on this as a more favorable conversation than her Cool Whip failure. The way that Peggy spits out that Megan thinks advertising is stupid is pretty vicious. 

Peggy: I did everything right, and I'm still getting it from you. You know what, you are not mad at me, so shut up.

The thing is, while Peggy is probably unjustifiably irate in this fight (a combination of actual resentment of Don and deflection from having screwed up here), she totally has Don's number. He is angry at Megan for abandoning advertising and shattering his illusion of her as perfectly aligned with his passion for advertising (and therefore with his life), and instead of acknowledging that to himself, he projects her failure to stay engaged by it back on Peggy. Also, I think, petty as it comes off, she does name a real fear of his: That Megan thinks advertising is stupid.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, caitmcg said:

The thing is, while Peggy is probably unjustifiably irate in this fight (a combination of actual resentment of Don and deflection from having screwed up here), she totally has Don's number. He is angry at Megan for abandoning advertising and shattering his illusion of her as perfectly aligned with his passion for advertising (and therefore with his life), and instead of acknowledging that to himself, he projects her failure to stay engaged by it back on Peggy. Also, I think, petty as it comes off, she does name a real fear of his: That Megan thinks advertising is stupid.

And Peggy also genuinely does, imo, have good reason to be offended at Don criticizing her handling of Megan at all, because Peggy really did try damn hard to *not* be anything but supportive of Megan despite the fact that the situation couldn't help but be awkward. In a way Don and Peggy are both trying to attack the other person's unspoken fears (Don was afraid Megan really didn't like advertising; Peggy was afraid she'd be catty and unfair to Megan because of her relationship with Don) but Peggy really had done enough to confidently defend herself against Don's accusations about Megan. Can't really say the same for Don.

[Melancholy]

14 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Peggy: I did everything right, and I'm still getting it from you. You know what, you are not mad at me, so shut up.

The thing is, while Peggy is probably unjustifiably irate in this fight (a combination of actual resentment of Don and deflection from having screwed up here), she totally has Don's number. He is angry at Megan for abandoning advertising and shattering his illusion of her as perfectly aligned with his passion for advertising (and therefore with his life), and instead of acknowledging that to himself, he projects her failure to stay engaged by it back on Peggy. Also, I think, petty as it comes off, she does name a real fear of his: That Megan thinks advertising is stupid.

LOL, at Peggy's "I did everything right" when she just fucked up the presentation. She really never owns her professional mistakes. I agree that Don is partly taking out his anger at Megan on Peggy. That's certainly where the "You were threatened by everything about her." However, I also think Don is also just rightly angry at Peggy for screwing up the presentation. Regardless of the Megan business, if Peggy didn't memorize her line and flubbed the tag line, Don would be making "Think we can find an actress who can remember 'Just taste it'" snark. Ken has no Megan-stake in this but Peggy spits at him when Ken suggests subbing in Megan for a re-do skit. In addition, absolutely, Don is projecting his issues with Megan on Peggy in this scene and consequently, failing to properly manage Peggy as her own her person and his employee. However, I also think that Peggy screwed up the "Just taste it" skit because she was still pouting about how Megan manipulated Peggy into lying for her and then, Megan got off scot free while Peggy was still freaked out. When Don and Megan were performing the skit the first time around, Peggy wasn't even watching it as a team-member but instead, as her own little ball of rage. Then, I feel like Peggy didn't memorize the skit because she was still angry that she was tagged with Megan's left over assignments and resentful that Don doesn't have the same close partnership with her. "You went through it one time, half assed." Once Peggy failed the skit, Peggy would rather discuss her issues with Don/Megan than sticking to the professional issue of how to rehabilitate the Cool Whip account. 

[caitmcg]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

LOL, at Peggy's "I did everything right" when she just fucked up the presentation. 

I always read her "I did everything right" as referring to her professional relationship with Megan (training her, encouraging her, making her part of the team despite her erratic comings and goings with Don, etc.), given that it directly follows the part of the exchange where Peggy defends herself on that front. 

Neither of them are innocent here, that's to be sure. 

[Melancholy]

18 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

I always read her "I did everything right" as referring to her professional relationship with Megan (training her, encouraging her, making her part of the team despite her erratic comings and goings with Don, etc.), given that it directly follows the part of the exchange where Peggy defends herself on that front. 

Neither of them are innocent here, that's to be sure. 

Hmm, I thought Peggy was also continuing her argument from earlier in the scene that she shouldn't be admonished for her performance and Ken shouldn't discuss rehabbing the account with Megan because Don should have run lines with Peggy to the point that Peggy didn't have to learn the script or even the three word tag line on her own.  

[ivygirl]

I think you're all right. How's that? ;)

I also sort of think that it's a meta comment. "I did everything right" to earn my way to this position--and Megan got to it way easier, and gets away with everything while I get criticized AND I have to pick up the pieces.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I also sort of think that it's a meta comment. "I did everything right" to earn my way to this position--and Megan got to it way easier, and gets away with everything while I get criticized AND I have to pick up the pieces.

You're right too! :-)

But yeah, I think Peggy starts out defensive about the actual Cool Whip scene since she obviously blew it--and blew it after Megan succeeded at it so effortlessly. It's exactly the type of thing Peggy couldn't just step into and be another Megan. So she blames it on Don, saying he didn't rehearse with her (and really, did you really need a rehearsal to remember the actual tag line???).

But when Don's ups the ante and gets personal back, making it about Megan herself then I think he's outmatched. Because Don really hasn't thought much about Peggy at all with regards to Megan--if he did he'd probably have realized he was putting her into a really awkward position. He just flings out an accusation that could have been true, but really isn't. And this is the area that Peggy's been actually stressing about all this time and has been putting up with. Not only was it awkward for her to be Megan's boss when Megan was Don's wife, but Megan did wind up dragging her into their marital relationship as well by lying. So it's only fitting, imo, that Peggy gets the last word in that argument because she *has* been thinking about how she relates to Megan and Don and Megan and Don and she's ready to draw the line at getting drawn into this again.

Ironically Peggy's the main person that actually understands Don's being offended at Megan's views about advertising. She doesn't like the attitude either.

[TigerLynx]

Having to work with your bosses' spouse, son, daughter, in-law, etc., is difficult under the best of circumstances.  It's a no win situation.

I thought it was ironic that the guys at Sally's birthday party were admiring of Don when he disappeared and didn't return with the cake, saying they wish they had the nerve to do something like that, and then when Betty divorces Don and marries Henry, one of Betty's friends tells Betty when her husband sees Don he refers to Don as that poor bastard.

Midge, Rachel, and Bobbi seemed to further the story along, but most of Don's mistresses don't even register with me.  I liked the actress who played Sylvia, and I did like her telling Don that the reason she got involved with him was because they both had something to loose so it was mutually assured destruction until Sylvia realized that Don might not care about losing Megan or anything else, and that's when Sylvia bailed.

Harry did end up being the clueless idiot who was still somehow a success didn't he?  He didn't realize in one of the meetings that he was the only one who got a promotion.  He said he wanted a computer just because, and it turned out to be the right move for the future.  He was actually able to help Megan's friends get acting jobs, but completely blows it with Megan when it should have been an easy sell with how desperate she had become.  At the end, both Pete and Peggy are baffled by the fact that Harry seems to think the three of them are the best of friends and some kind of team left over from the original firm.

[Luckylyn]

I feel like Harry is this accidental success story. He gets placed in the undervalued tv department right before the company realized how critical it was.  He made some errors like the mishandling of the Sal situation where he chose to stay silent but got to stay because he had the tv department position.  Harry was someone I liked in season one.  I felt bad for him when he cheated on his wife because he was remorseful.   Then as seasons progressed the success of the tv department really brought out the worst in him.  He became this jerk openly chasing after women who were trying out for parts and not seeming to care about hurting his wife anymore.  He also go really cocky and obnoxious.  He had success at work but he had an off putting personality that made him come off as sleazy so people were willing to work with him but didn't seem to like him.  I think he lacked charm and that was what made people not uncomfortable with him.  Roger could be a jerk too but had so much charisma that people enjoyed him anyway.   Harry's lack of charisma is what delays him getting the partnership offer he feels entitled to.  He treats Joan as if she stole his spot as a partner when it's not her fault because it's clearly because they just don't like him despite the money Harry's department brings in.  Harry didn't seem to know how to smoothly sell himself and comes off poorly.   Then when he gets the partnership offer thanks to the civil war between the partners he misses it because he wants to delay accepting it until after his divorce is final so he won't have to pay more alimony.  

 

Does Harry deserve credit for the success of the tv department or is it the sort of position that is inherently successful regardless of who is in charge?

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Does Harry deserve credit for the success of the tv department or is it the sort of position that is inherently successful regardless of who is in charge?

Well, iirc it was his idea to start it so without him they might have been playing catch-up and not done as well in it. And he does seem to do his job perfectly well. His connections in Hollywood might make him a bit more insufferable, but he seems to work fine with them and understand the business he's doing there. If he wasn't able to do the job they probably would have replaced him when they got successful. So while his success does seem somewhat accidental, I never felt like he didn't deserve his job or anything. He seems like somebody who's never really a star even on the level of Pete, but nobody really mind working with him. It's the personal stuff they dislike.

[TigerLynx]

I think if Harry had been more personable and better at networking, he would have had even more success.  He seemed to know what he was doing, but he also shot himself in the foot a lot.  Which is very true to life.  Smart, capable people can do some really stupid things.

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I think if Harry had been more personable and better at networking, he would have had even more success.  He seemed to know what he was doing, but he also shot himself in the foot a lot.  Which is very true to life.  Smart, capable people can do some really stupid things.

Yeah, Pete's a good contrast there. Because he's also got personality issues (albeit of a different type) but we also see him throwing himself into the job and trying to come up with new ways to do things and just being really ambitious. People do eventually recognize him as somebody with an exceptional skill. With Harry, iirc, a lot of his success is being the person to ask for something. Like iirc the TV department naturally grew out of the job he was doing and he saw that other companies had TV departments so couldn't he head theirs? Same thing with the computer. It's not that he's really presented as being on the vanguard of new media ideas. He tends to look at what other people are doing and see an opportunity for himself or a way that SCDP (and so also himself) should be keeping up. Once he has the job he does it but he's not shown, that I remember, thinking outside the box or having any exceptional success in that area--as opposed to many other characters like Don, Peggy, Pete and Ginsberg where we know that they've stood out among their peers.

[TigerLynx]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, Pete's a good contrast there. Because he's also got personality issues (albeit of a different type) but we also see him throwing himself into the job and trying to come up with new ways to do things and just being really ambitious. People do eventually recognize him as somebody with an exceptional skill. With Harry, iirc, a lot of his success is being the person to ask for something. Like iirc the TV department naturally grew out of the job he was doing and he saw that other companies had TV departments so couldn't he head theirs? Same thing with the computer. It's not that he's really presented as being on the vanguard of new media ideas. He tends to look at what other people are doing and see an opportunity for himself or a way that SCDP (and so also himself) should be keeping up. Once he has the job he does it but he's not shown, that I remember, thinking outside the box or having any exceptional success in that area--as opposed to many other characters like Don, Peggy, Pete and Ginsberg where we know that they've stood out among their peers.

Yeah both Pete and Peggy could be socially awkward, but they were hard workers.  Pete also had Trudie to help out.  Trudie seemed like a nice person for the most part, and she enjoyed socializing.

I don't know if Roger hired Don when he was drunk, and didn't remember, or if Don tricked Roger into thinking he had hired him, but whichever it was, Don got his shot, and took it.  Don gave Peggy a chance, and she made the most of it.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't know if Roger hired Don when he was drunk, and didn't remember, or if Don tricked Roger into thinking he had hired him, but whichever it was, Don got his shot, and took it.  Don gave Peggy a chance, and she made the most of it.

Ha--had to come back and note that I'm just watching a season 6 ep with commentary and we do see Harry doing a great job in it. When he comes up with the idea for the TV show for Dow chemical he's turning something bad into a great thing.

Though again, I think he's following in the footsteps of other people. He's seen these shows before and so he knows what to do. But then he acts like a jerk to Joan, taking out his lack of recognition on Joan.

[Melancholy]

I thought Harry was done wrong. Creating the TV department and basically inventing that whole science of advertising, retaining Dow by selling a historic huge TV special, leading the effort to build SC West, and advocating for the computer that became part of the listed rationales for the McCann sale were all huge deals. His personality was off putting but also, SC never makes partners unless they have to. Don was a superstar but Bert and Roger had to be shamed/ultimatumed into making him a partner by Lee Garner Sr. in the wake of Roger's heart attack. Then, Don/Roger/Bert only made Lane/Pete because they needed to in a desperate spot to start the new company. Joan got hers in a quid pro quo for Jaguar. Harry would be the first time that a partnership was given out of measured consideration of the person's overall value and the value of putting them front and center to attract more business instead out of desperate deal to get something. 

Harry is hella flawed. However, I do think that he had a friendly, calm nature most of the time even though people are always yelling at him and mocking him. He's not one to snipe. That's a big point for likability over most of his coworkers. Since this was brought up near discussion of the Cool Whip, I appreciated how Harry sincerely apologized for mistaking the wrong band for Rolling Stones. It was a very obvious mistake so Harry just owned up to it and tried to remedy it with another night out. He didn't sourly snipe that Don should have run flash cards with the faces of The Rolling Stones or should have insisted on going into the room to sell the band even thought the promoter asked Harry to go back stage. In a bunch of instances, I think coworkers are jerks to Harry. Does Roger have to give some summer camp bully speech about wanting to avoid Harry at McCann or make sarcastic remarks as Harry gives Don the walking stick? Ken was petty and mean to enjoy how Joan sharply yelled at Harry that he's not a partner when we never saw Harry do anything rude to Ken. Given that Peggy bitches about her job and opportunities all the time in the later seasons, she didn't have to snipe at Harry with the "what were you promised?" when Harry is just doing a little workplace grumbling. I favor Pete's more friendly sniping or Don's "I'm not your friend. I just want a dry professional dynamic." vibes more.   

To go back to Peggy, I will also say that my sympathy for her dealing with Megan is limited. Megan hurt/stressed Peggy by trapping her into lying that one night. If Peggy was planning on using Megan in the Campfire Beans presentation, Don hurt Peggy there. And here, Don was hurting Peggy when he was taking his marital dissatisfaction out on her in this scene. On those levels, I empathize that Peggy was actually hurt. Other than that, I don't think Megan's dual role as a copywriter and wife hurt Peggy that much. Peggy was kind of hyperventilating herself into extra anxiety and resentment. If Peggy wants to rise in the ranks of the agency, she has to train inexperienced copywriters. Training and even defending her juniors is just her job- it's not a gift. I'm not sure how Peggy knows that she spent more time training Megan than Don. I think based on screentime, we saw Don explain stuff to Megan more than Peggy but then, Don gets more screentime than Peggy because he's the lead. Still, doesnt sound like something Peggy would know for sure and it smells like a groundless claim. Most of the creatives come with personality quirks that you have to swim around. Peggy was pissed at Don for hiring Stan but worked around it. She was pissed at Roger and Don for appearing to like Ginsberg at first even though she brought him in. 

But as I said earlier, Don's "You were threatened by her" remark was outrageous and justified Peggy in fiercely defending herself on that ground. I don't think she was as much of a martyr about Megan as she does but absolutely, she never let any feeling of being threatened affect her conduct towards Megan. (But she did let it affect her dynamic with Don.) But I do think Peggy was wrong about being irate over her failure in the presentation but then, she's mostly right in this juncture where Don wrongly accuses her of being threatened. Then, Peggy's wrong again by putting words in Megan's mouth about Megan thinking advertising is stupid and stirring up Don v. Megan conflicts. I don't think Don could let that comment lie there because it's a serious indictment of their marriage and Megan but he was wrong to blame "the people" I.e. Peggy. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

52 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I favor Pete's more friendly sniping or Don's "I'm not your friend. I just want a dry professional dynamic." vibes more.   

I always liked it when Pete and Harry talked--they often had conversations with some real substance to them. Likewise Pete's criticisms of Harry, when he had them, weren't usually like everyone else's where they just hated Harry in general. He more reacted to specific things Harry did that he disagreed with or didn't approve of--specifically the way that he saw the Kennedy and King assassinations through the lens of what they would cost the agency when Pete thought they should be taken seriously. I think Pete at one point refers to Harry's "convention whores" and he asks him if "everything turns him on" at Roger's mom's funeral, but again, all those things tend to be specific things. They don't dominate his interactions with Harry. Off the top of my head, he talks to Harry about marriage early on, about Beth (without giving him details), about the competition with Ken (I think that's what they're talking about when the special report about Kennedy comes in), going to a headhunter. Pete's probably the person in the office who shows Harry the most professional respect just by having these exchanges, and they're not overshadowed by the times Pete insults him or Harry is snippy back.

Full disclosure: I've always really loved Harry. A lot of people felt that his personality changed in later seasons, like he started off a sweet guy and became a creep, but I totally buy his evolution.

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

Then, Peggy's wrong again by putting words in Megan's mouth about Megan thinking advertising is stupid and stirring up Don v. Megan conflicts. I don't think Don could let that comment lie there because it's a serious indictment of their marriage and Megan but he was wrong to blame "the people" I.e. Peggy. 

It's funny...in that moment when Peggy says that Megan thinks advertising is stupid it's like she puts the relationships back in order--Peggy is the "real" connection. Her telling him something so damning about Megan--something that will pretty much haunt if not stalk the marriage after that point--really foreshadows which relationship is going to be the one that lasts. Peggy gritted her teeth and smiled when Don brought Megan into the office and had everyone drink champagne, but "She thinks advertising is stupid" was a killing blow, even if it didn't kill the marriage right away. (Not that Peggy destroyed the marriage, of course, but she bluntly says out loud the words that kind of represent that they are not the soulmates Don needed them to be.)

[Melancholy]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I always liked it when Pete and Harry talked--they often had conversations with some real substance to them. Likewise Pete's criticisms of Harry, when he had them, weren't usually like everyone else's where they just hated Harry in general. He more reacted to specific things Harry did that he disagreed with or didn't approve of--specifically the way that he saw the Kennedy and King assassinations through the lens of what they would cost the agency when Pete thought they should be taken seriously. I think Pete at one point refers to Harry's "convention whores" and he asks him if "everything turns him on" at Roger's mom's funeral, but again, all those things tend to be specific things. They don't dominate his interactions with Harry. Off the top of my head, he talks to Harry about marriage early on, about Beth (without giving him details), about the competition with Ken (I think that's what they're talking about when the special report about Kennedy comes in), going to a headhunter. Pete's probably the person in the office who shows Harry the most professional respect just by having these exchanges, and they're not overshadowed by the times Pete insults him or Harry is snippy back.

Full disclosure: I've always really loved Harry. A lot of people felt that his personality changed in later seasons, like he started off a sweet guy and became a creep, but I totally buy his evolution.

It's funny...in that moment when Peggy says that Megan thinks advertising is stupid it's like she puts the relationships back in order--Peggy is the "real" connection. Her telling him something so damning about Megan--something that will pretty much haunt if not stalk the marriage after that point--really foreshadows which relationship is going to be the one that lasts. Peggy gritted her teeth and smiled when Don brought Megan into the office and had everyone drink champagne, but "She thinks advertising is stupid" was a killing blow, even if it didn't kill the marriage right away. (Not that Peggy destroyed the marriage, of course, but she bluntly says out loud the words that kind of represent that they are not the soulmates Don needed them to be.)

Right with Pete/Harry. I can respect Pete frequently interacting with Harry and sniping at him over specific personal instances that merit the snipe. They interact enough that I get why Pete gets tired of Harry's gross qualities and they're close enough that the personal sniping feels based in an earned familiarity. Other than the hookers/travellers checks comment, Don insists on brusque professional distance while Harry wants to be friends. However, colleagues owe each other professionalism, not friendship.

However when the only significant Harry/Ken interaction that I can think of was Harry doing amazing work on Ken's Dow account after Harry sympathetically heard Ken complain about Sunday dinner with Cynthia's dad, I get all "What the fuck is your problem?" about Ken enjoying that Harry is not a partner. If Peggy can snark about Hary being friendly about having a lunch with her and Pete because they're not close, Peggy has no room to know or even intelligently assume whether Harry received the employment perks and advancements he was promised. Roger is the most ridiculous. That summer camp speech was just mean and I don't get what Harry did to earn it. I could also see most of the characters being meaner about missing the McCann buyout by a hair and blaming others for not respecting the deal. Like The Rolling Stones, Harry seemed to get that it was his fault and moved on with good humor. It makes Roger noting that he's above Harry as a incoming exec seem meaner. 

I do agree that Peggy's comments that Megan thinks advertising is stupid laid bare a truth- that Don/Megan isn't based in anything. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Melancholy

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I thought Harry was done wrong. Creating the TV department and basically inventing that whole science of advertising, retaining Dow by selling a historic huge TV special, leading the effort to build SC West, and advocating for the computer that became part of the listed rationales for the McCann sale were all huge deals. His personality was off putting but also, SC never makes partners unless they have to. Don was a superstar but Bert and Roger had to be shamed/ultimatumed into making him a partner by Lee Garner Sr. in the wake of Roger's heart attack. Then, Don/Roger/Bert only made Lane/Pete because they needed to in a desperate spot to start the new company. Joan got hers in a quid pro quo for Jaguar. Harry would be the first time that a partnership was given out of measured consideration of the person's overall value and the value of putting them front and center to attract more business instead out of desperate deal to get something. 

I couldn't agree more.  He earned his partnership, and I think he wasn't wrong in what he said about his vs. Joan's partnership.  Was he wrong to shout it the way he did? Yes, but the sentiment remained true.  He was portrayed as a bad guy for feeling that way, but I don't blame him. It would be humiliating for rumors to get out that one of your partners is only a partner because of having sex with a prospect while you built your department from scratch into a huge department and received nothing.  

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

I couldn't agree more.  He earned his partnership, and I think he wasn't wrong in what he said about his vs. Joan's partnership.  Was he wrong to shout it the way he did? Yes, but the sentiment remained true.  He was portrayed as a bad guy for feeling that way, but I don't blame him. It would be humiliating for rumors to get out that one of your partners is only a partner because of having sex with a prospect while you built your department from scratch into a huge department and received nothing.  

Right, he just shoots himself in the foot by going in and accusing the partners of being unfair and Joan as being undeserving when really, her partnership has nothing to do with why he's not a partner. She made a deal they were willing to take. It's not like she took his spot. It was exactly the kind of thing that would make them less likely to want him on board. He got strategic in the wrong moment. He'd just done a great thing with Dow and instead of presenting it in a positive way he makes it about a power play concerning his secretary. Meanwhile in the same episode Dawn is much more savvy, correctly targeting Joan as the person whose respect she needs to have. (Not that Henry should be trying to earn Joan's respect--in his case it's the partners he should be targeting.)

6 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

It makes Roger noting that he's above Harry as a incoming exec seem meaner. 

Another ironic thing with Roger is that he gets mad at Harry when he admittedly handles the Lee Garner Jr. situation badly by keeping quiet. And then Roger does the exact same thing under much more obvious circumstances! Harry had some hope that the thing with Sal wasn't serious. Roger knew the company was like the Titanic speeding toward the iceberg and basically just hid, even faking a phone call to cover his tracks. He tells Harry he should have gone to "Mommy and Daddy" for help and then acts like a total child himself.

[Guest]

Harry reacted wrongly - very wrongly. But it's understandable.  His anger was likely simmering over the fact that he hadn't been recognized for his years of building the company.  Then Joan is given a partnership that, in his mind, she didn't deserve.  And then she fires someone in his department without even giving him a heads-up first. So he reacted unprofessionally.  Joan is the last person who should complain about that given her history of unprofessionalism - smashing airplanes, snapping at Peggy whenever she felt like it, etc. 

[Melancholy]

12 minutes ago, deaja said:

I couldn't agree more.  He earned his partnership, and I think he wasn't wrong in what he said about his vs. Joan's partnership.  Was he wrong to shout it the way he did? Yes, but the sentiment remained true.  He was portrayed as a bad guy for feeling that way, but I don't blame him. It would be humiliating for rumors to get out that one of your partners is only a partner because of having sex with a prospect while you built your department from scratch into a huge department and received nothing.  

Yup. There's deserved conversation about Joan was wronged in the prostitution storyline and even though Joan took the deal, she most certainly felt wronged by the company. However, the other people wronged by that deal were the folks who wanted a partnership but couldn't put out to get it. I also disagreed with Harry making a big loud stink about Joan's prostitution. Joan didn't deserve to be shamed for something she was asked to do and presently, contributes to Harry's pay. But I completely get Harry getting angry about Joan firing his secretary without consulting with him. Also, Joan poured more gas by not even explaining her reasons for firing Harry's secretary as he confronted her but instead, sneering that she has better things to do and so should Harry. Jeez, at least, take the two minutes to explain the situation instead of deliberately furthering an impression that Joan would eliminate Harry's personnel for her own arbitrary reasons. 

 

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Another ironic thing with Roger is that he gets mad at Harry when he admittedly handles the Lee Garner Jr. situation badly by keeping quiet. And then Roger does the exact same thing under much more obvious circumstances! Harry had some hope that the thing with Sal wasn't serious. Roger knew the company was like the Titanic speeding toward the iceberg and basically just hid, even faking a phone call to cover his tracks. He tells Harry he should have gone to "Mommy and Daddy" for help and then acts like a total child himself.

Lol, for some more Harry = Roger. Harry thinks he's going to be fired for the Zous Bisous comments. Roger continues his whole morning activity- making fun of Zous Bisous. But the second Harry tries negotiating for giving up his office, Roger threatens firing Harry over their previous shared joke. 

Roger and Harry both do the more blatant casting quid pro quo on the show. Roger and Harry are the two who hit on Don's wives.

[caitmcg]

Roger is often petty and often unnecessarily mean in his attitude and actions with most of the people in the office, with the exception of—most of the time, though not always—Bert, Don, and Joan, because of the relationships he has or wants to have with those three. He was pissy to Harry throughout, and the way he took lighthearted pleasure in firing Burt Peterson, and firing him again, though amusing to watch, was pretty unseemly. He's both entitled by his position and wealth (yeah, he can threaten to fire people, and actually fire people, at will), and resentful of employees and colleagues who bring talent and earned material gain to the business. 

Poor Harry. By the time he finally gets his partnership offer, he's more than earned it for his contributions to the company, but it still only comes thanks to an intra-agency political battle waged by Cutler overcoming the personal resentments of Roger, Don, and Joan.

[Melancholy]

Don voted for Harry to be partner. I like "Say what you will about him but he's loyal." <pointed look at Joan>

I think Roger was a consistent jerk to Harry, Bert Peterson, Bob Benson, Caroline, and maybe Lane. Everyone is a potential punchline to Roger but I think he's fine to Peggy, Duck, Ginsberg for significant interactions. I'd say he's nice to Freddy but I agreed with Don that it was a betrayal to fire him in S2. Then again, Roger was the one that hired him back in S4 but because of Ponds. And that was the significant thing. Same with Ken. Roger is generally cool with Ken but in significant interactions, he cruelly forbade Ken from writing in his spare time and didn't fight for Ken at all when McCann fired him. But he thinks everyone is expendable. "Now I have a learn a bunch of people's names before I fire them." Not even caring to ask about Lee Garner's beef with Sal to see if it was fixable before he fired Sal.

He's in the right in his conflict with Cutler. Pete is a tough one. Roger is the aggressor in S1, but fuck, Pete was *really* obnoxious and I see why Roger thought it'd be better for everyone if he reminds Pete who's boss. Their dynamic is quiet in S2-3. In S4, Pete is usually in the right but I usually think Roger has cause for his actions. It's a pure dollars and cents issue to drop Clearasil for Ponds. Roger was definitely wrong in the Honda meeting but Pete's allegation that Roger wants the company to do poorly so they're dependent on Lucky Strike was inflammatory. Roger was wrong to scream at Pete for losing NAA like that in public, even if it was Pete's fault. In S5, Pete is the aggressor. Roger can be ridiculous but he's defensive. Their dynamic is quiet in S6. In S7, they're on the same side but like, Roger is sometimes a dick about it. Like in A Days Work when Roger agrees that there's no need for Bob to muscle in on Pete's business but he hangs up on Pete once the 30 second follow up conversation bores him. 

So yeah, Roger is pretty crappy to most people there except Joan, Cooper, and Don. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Melancholy

[TigerLynx]

Almost all of the characters had instances where they were really unlikeable.  Except maybe Dawn.  Dawn also admitted when she was wrong and apologized for it.

Roger's a jerk, but John Slattery has a lot of charm and charisma, and can deliver a funny line like no one else.

Roger is also the owner.  He may have inherited his money, connections and company from his father, but he is the owner with the power which means he can get away with saying and doing things employees can't, and that is still somewhat true to this day.

Joan had previously as the office manager handled the hiring, firing, etc., of employees so her firing Scarlett for what she did wasn't that unusual.  If Harry had an issue with it, he should have addressed that, and not brought up Jaguar.

It seemed Peggy and her department liked Megan.  It was Don they were annoyed with because not only would he drag Megan away from her job, but he stopped doing his.  In the early seasons, Don was the guy who could always come up with an idea at the last minute, and sale it.  In the final seasons, Don was absent or a liability.

[sistermagpie]

It's funny that in some ways Harry was one of those characters where it was sort of a joke that people hated him because there wasn't a real reason for it. With Pete you could see him honestly angering people. Harry seemed to have everyone disliking him even before he got confident enough where he was demanding to be made partner. (In both cases neither man is hated by clients or other people that are part of their job.)

For instance, Don seems annoyed at Harry doing things like eating all the White Castles he bought to bring home or trying to pay prostitutes with travelers cheques, but Don's no stranger to prostitutes and walked out of his daughter's birthday party with the cake. So it's not like you can really put your finger on why Harry would be the person Megan would say Don goes to the trouble of hating, even if by "hating" she just means he tries to avoid him (which is what she seems to mean). I love the scene in California where Harry just points out to Don that all he has to do is be minimally friendly and Harry will save him.

[TigerLynx]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny that in some ways Harry was one of those characters where it was sort of a joke that people hated him because there wasn't a real reason for it. With Pete you could see him honestly angering people. Harry seemed to have everyone disliking him even before he got confident enough where he was demanding to be made partner. (In both cases neither man is hated by clients or other people that are part of their job.)

For instance, Don seems annoyed at Harry doing things like eating all the White Castles he bought to bring home or trying to pay prostitutes with travelers cheques, but Don's no stranger to prostitutes and walked out of his daughter's birthday party with the cake. So it's not like you can really put your finger on why Harry would be the person Megan would say Don goes to the trouble of hating, even if by "hating" she just means he tries to avoid him (which is what she seems to mean). I love the scene in California where Harry just points out to Don that all he has to do is be minimally friendly and Harry will save him.

I thought it was funny that when Don saw Harry he actually looked relieved.  Finally, someone at the party he knew even if it was Harry.

Don could be a real jackass, but at some point he did acknowledge that Roger, Pete, Peggy, Joan, Lane, Dawn, etc. were good at their jobs.

It seemed both Don and Roger ended up missing the original Sterling/Cooper firm.  I wonder if Harry did as well.  They ended up selling Sterling/Cooper because Roger was divorcing Mona.  They started their own firm because Sterling/Cooper was about to be sold again.  They did the merger, and then ended up having to sell the firm they started to the people they were trying to avoid in the first place.

[Melancholy]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny that in some ways Harry was one of those characters where it was sort of a joke that people hated him because there wasn't a real reason for it. With Pete you could see him honestly angering people. Harry seemed to have everyone disliking him even before he got confident enough where he was demanding to be made partner. (In both cases neither man is hated by clients or other people that are part of their job.)

For instance, Don seems annoyed at Harry doing things like eating all the White Castles he bought to bring home or trying to pay prostitutes with travelers cheques, but Don's no stranger to prostitutes and walked out of his daughter's birthday party with the cake. So it's not like you can really put your finger on why Harry would be the person Megan would say Don goes to the trouble of hating, even if by "hating" she just means he tries to avoid him (which is what she seems to mean). I love the scene in California where Harry just points out to Don that all he has to do is be minimally friendly and Harry will save him.

If I thought I was immediately heading home after a failed business evening and my business partner stopped for 20 sliders but then, proceeded to sit for hours inhaling them all while I was a captive audience to that gorging, I'd say "There were 20 of them. I thought you were buying them for your family." The dude ate 20 sliders in one sitting. The action demands surprise. 

I also don't think Don was judging Harry for having sex with prostitutes. He was judging the strangeness and stupidity of trying to pay them with travellers checks. Which, really. It's the most famous cash rich business. Don speaks from experience in paying whores in that conversation instead of (lol) false purity.

I never got the impression that Don hated Harry. I think Don just found him gauche and annoying to hang out with so he had no interest in being buddies but he thought Harry was good at his job and wanted to deal with him professionally on that level. He didn't feel enough friendship affinity for Harry to be buddies on a regular basis but he felt enough affinity to reach out in The Wheel and The Runaways. I like when Roger is heckling the walking stick ("Oh look. He got you a cane." "You could stick it up your ass and have a concert") and Don ignored all of that and cordially thanked Harry. Not because he liked the walking stick but because there's rules to being a host and dealing with employees.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I also don't think Don was judging Harry for having sex with prostitutes. He was judging the strangeness and stupidity of trying to pay them with travellers checks. Which, really. It's the most famous cash rich business. Don speaks from experience in paying whores in that conversation instead of (lol) false purity.

 

I know! And I also get his reaction to the sliders. My point was just that these don't seem like things that would add up to Don particularly wanting to avoid Harry because they're just sort of odd and weird, not offensive to Don. Like, if Don *was* somebody who was grossed out by prostitution in general it would be a clear example of why he hated Harry, but it's not. It's just one of Don's funniest lines. He's not angered personally by Harry doing these things.

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I never got the impression that Don hated Harry. I think Don just found him gauche and annoying to hang out with so he had no interest in being buddies but he thought Harry was good at his job and wanted to deal with him professionally on that level.

He's the person Megan singles out as somebody Don hates. Even though she's just saying Don really wouldn't want Harry at his party, that means he *has* demonstrated some specific aversion to the guy even though it doesn't seem like Harry's really done anything to make him stand out even that much. If it was Pete, for instance, it would make sense--Don doesn't ever really want to spend time with Pete (and early on he did have a personal aversion for him for reasons that were explicit) but he can't be that dismissive of him and has a grudging respect for him. Maybe it's just that Harry is the guy at work that, for whatever reason, he can vent the dislike he has for coworkers in general. 

4 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I thought it was funny that when Don saw Harry he actually looked relieved.  Finally, someone at the party he knew even if it was Harry.

 

LOL! I forgot that. I so love that whole sequence. He's genuinely thrilled to see him.

[Melancholy]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

He's the person Megan singles out as somebody Don hates. Even though she's just saying Don really wouldn't want Harry at his party, that means he *has* demonstrated some specific aversion to the guy even though it doesn't seem like Harry's really done anything to make him stand out even that much. If it was Pete, for instance, it would make sense--Don doesn't ever really want to spend time with Pete (and early on he did have a personal aversion for him for reasons that were explicit) but he can't be that dismissive of him and has a grudging respect for him. Maybe it's just that Harry is the guy at work that, for whatever reason, he can vent the dislike he has for coworkers in general. 

Megan's comment could be taken as another indication of how she doesn't know Don and how Don had been performing the role the role of happy, kind, and patient guy in the early days of their marriage. We've seen enough of Don to know that he can get very snarky and impatient about most anyone and throw some harsh shade but that doesn't mean that he dislikes someone. He gets that way on Peggy and Roger and they're his favorite people in the office. I could see that Harry is a front and center easy target for Don to make sarcastic remarks on but that doesn't mean that he dislikes Harry or would exclude him from an office party. It would go with how Megan didn't know anything else about the guest list- that Don and Duck actually hate each other, that Freddy doesn't go to parties, that Don actually plainly likes his accountant. 

Don doesn't like Harry as a friend but man, I think Megan's instinct that Don would want everyone else in the office but Harry invited to the party was very off base. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Melancholy said:

Don doesn't like Harry as a friend but man, I think Megan's instinct that Don would want everyone else in the office but Harry invited to the party was very off base. 

Yeah, I didn't take that line of Megan's that seriously. If nothing else it fits with her later accusations that everyone in the office is so terrible because they reacted to the party in a pretty normal way. But I did see her line as more of a running joke about Harry that was supposed to be based on something. It's not like Don would actually care if Harry was at the party--if Megan had actually excluded Harry Don probably would have been annoyed because it would be insulting to Harry for no reason. But I do think we were supposed to think that Don was negative about Harry enough that Megan picked up on it. That's more what I thought the joke was, that everybody talked shit about Harry, just like the viewers of the show.

Ironically, part of the fall-out of the ep is Harry thinking that Don hates him or is angry at him and maybe he's going to get fired when Don isn't thinking about him at all and it's really only Megan who winds up hating him.

[TigerLynx]

I took Megan's comments about Harry in the same vein I did the party and the orange sherbert incident.  Don and Megan didn't really know anything about each other when they got married, and they didn't know all that much about each other when they got divorced either.

When Megan first met Don she had given up on acting, was a receptionist that was then promoted to be Don's secretary, and she had nothing to lose.  It was easy for Megan to seem secure, confident and happy when she had everything to gain.

I don't know if a better actress could have made me care about Megan, but I didn't like JP.  I also found it weird that so many people on the show would comment on how gorgeous Megan was.  JP is attractive, but this show had a lot of really beautiful women on it, and I don't think Megan was at the top of the list.  I would put Betty, Joan, Trudy, Jane, Scarlett ahead of Megan in the looks department.

It's ironic that when Bert and Roger agree to start the new firm, Don admits he can't do what Roger does, Roger questions what they need Lane for, and Don points out that none of them can do what Lane does, Roger calls Joan in on everything when they realize she can tell them stuff they don't know but need to know, then when Roger loses the Lucky Strikes account, Don tells Roger Pete never would have let that happen.

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I took Megan's comments about Harry in the same vein I did the party and the orange sherbert incident.  Don and Megan didn't really know anything about each other when they got married, and they didn't know all that much about each other when they got divorced either.

When Megan first met Don she had given up on acting, was a receptionist that was then promoted to be Don's secretary, and she had nothing to lose.  It was easy for Megan to seem secure, confident and happy when she had everything to gain.

I don't know if a better actress could have made me care about Megan, but I didn't like JP.  I also found it weird that so many people on the show would comment on how gorgeous Megan was.  JP is attractive, but this show had a lot of really beautiful women on it, and I don't think Megan was at the top of the list.  I would put Betty, Joan, Trudy, Jane, Scarlett ahead of Megan in the looks department.

It's ironic that when Bert and Roger agree to start the new firm, Don admits he can't do what Roger does, Roger questions what they need Lane for, and Don points out that none of them can do what Lane does, Roger calls Joan in on everything when they realize she can tell them stuff they don't know but need to know, then when Roger loses the Lucky Strikes account, Don tells Roger Pete never would have let that happen.

When Megan was with her actress friends, I thought all of them were better looking and less awkward then her.  When Don was looking at a soundless audition reel and was supposedly blown away by her star power, I was like...da fuck?

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Don and Megan didn't really know anything about each other when they got married, and they didn't know all that much about each other when they got divorced either.

So true.

[Domestic Assassin]

I always thought Don's animosity toward Harry came from Harry's role in Sal getting fired, mainly because he never seemed to have a problem with Harry before that and that was the most recent situation involving Harry when it came out that Don didn't like him.  However, there's no real evidence that's what Don's problem with Harry was.

[ivygirl]

20 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't know if a better actress could have made me care about Megan, but I didn't like JP.  I also found it weird that so many people on the show would comment on how gorgeous Megan was. 

I've noticed this as well. I just watched the episode where Megan meets Stephanie. Stephanie enters the house and says something like, "You're so magnetic!" Huh? Show, don't tell, Mad Men! 

I could see how people were charmed by Betty--she exuded that "something" that would draw people (especially men) in. Joan as well, and Peggy in her own way (mostly how she drew mentors to herself). Megan, not so much. I guess that's why the characters had to tell us how gorgeous and magnetic she was. It's not good writing when you have to convince us of something we can't see. You didn't have to tell us (through the mouths of characters) that Betty was glamorous or Joan was sexy or Peggy was creative in such a straight-out way. We could see it through the way their characters behaved.

[Melancholy]

17 hours ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

I always thought Don's animosity toward Harry came from Harry's role in Sal getting fired, mainly because he never seemed to have a problem with Harry before that and that was the most recent situation involving Harry when it came out that Don didn't like him.  However, there's no real evidence that's what Don's problem with Harry was.

I don't think that was the grudge. I think Don disliked firing Sal but it wasn't that upsetting to Don. I don't think there was a grudge. Don was neutral to Harry through S1-4 other than that one bad moment with Sal and that one close moment in The Wheel. There was a conversation with the guys in S1 where Harry said Don liked him compared to Kinsey but I think Harry was too quick to conflate being liked with not having to report to Don as a copywriter and face Don's judgement of his creative output. S4 features other moments of characters negatively reacting to Harry's new empowered, California persona like Joan and Lane and Pete. But Don remained neutral. In S5-7, Harry felt empowered enough to try to be Don's buddy and Don rebuffed those and he was irritated with the attempts and occasions where Harry wasn't listening like getting a flashy, non-GM car in California for company business. But Don was generally cool with Harry when things were professional. 

 

22 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

It's ironic that when Bert and Roger agree to start the new firm, Don admits he can't do what Roger does, Roger questions what they need Lane for, and Don points out that none of them can do what Lane does, Roger calls Joan in on everything when they realize she can tell them stuff they don't know but need to know, then when Roger loses the Lucky Strikes account, Don tells Roger Pete never would have let that happen.

Its interesting to query whether Pete would have lost Lucky Strike. Pete could lose accounts too. It happens to everyone. I do think Pete would have had a higher likelihood of knowing that American Tobacco wanted to consolidate the accounts and he would have gotten to know people on the board over a 20 year relationship instead of just relying on the Lee Garners. Maybe that wouldn't be enough. All of American Tobacco sounds like too much business for a start-up. But I see what Don is saying when he said Pete wouldn't have let this happen. There's also an expression that Jon Hamm makes where it looks like he's not quite buying that Roger just found out but he doesn't have the evidence to say otherwise. 

But I also think Don was the least sincere in his bid for Roger to join in Shut the Door... compared to Lane, Pete, and Peggy. I think Don truly wanted his friendship back with Roger as well as the Lucky Strike account but I don't think Don truly felt Roger could have saved the Hilton account or that Don's learned from this that he's not an accountman and he should defer to Roger on these issues. But largely, because Don was actually right in this tiff. *I* don't think Roger could have saved Hilton. I think Roger would have hindered. And Don continues to do account work for the rest of the series, except for slowing down a little in S7 because he's barred in S7A and there's less incentive in S7B since they're a division of McCann and Don sort of had an epiphany that he'd rather stick to purely creative. But that's the constant push and pull in the series- SC people want Don to lead in all major aspects of the business- creative, accounts, management- but then they flip out that deferring to Magic Man doesn't just mean easy money but it also comes with a relative loss in power and importance. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Its interesting to query whether Pete would have lost Lucky Strike. Pete could lose accounts too. It happens to everyone.

Yeah, I think Don's just throwing that out to stick it to Roger because it was nobody's fault they lost Lucky Strike. Sure Pete probably would have been more proactive working the account because he didn't have Roger's position, but it's not like they lose the account because of Roger. It seems like if it was just up to Lee Garner Jr. they'd still have it. What Pete wouldn't have done is lie about it so completely--but Don doesn't know Roger did that anyway.

Of course, Roger had also earlier yelled at Pete for losing NAA, which Pete actually sacrificed for Don's sake, and Roger did that while he was keeping the secret about Lucky Strike, so it's not unusual for people to throw out criticisms like that just for emotion's sake. And I think that's more where Don's coming from. I feel like it's not really about Roger vs. Pete as account men there, but a more nebulous thing about him feeling betrayed. I like that note that maybe Don does have an inkling that Roger already knew--because even if Don doesn't literally think that Roger already has this information that they're leaving, it would make sense for him to doubt that Roger didn't see it coming at all. 

[Melancholy]

I do think it's partly Don's preference for Pete as a businessman. Don was partly provoked into saying it because Roger was mocking going to an ad funeral to find clients. Don's dressing down started with, "We're going to sign clients. Still remember how to do that?" after Roger joked about going to the funeral. "David Montgomery died? Well there's your silver lining. Who the hell wants to go to that?" Because Roger did not bring in one account since S1 and he only had Lucky Strike. All of the other partners have a fire in their belly to know this is a crisis point and they have to hustle except for Roger who has no appetite or instinct for it until now when his Lucky Strike ran out (or was kind of diminished).

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I do think it's partly Don's preference for Pete as a businessman.

Good point--much better example of the idea, really. That is, it's not that Pete wouldn't have lost Lucky Strike but that Don feels like Pete takes this seriously while Roger doesn't. So you're right it is about Pete vs. Roger as an account man, but not in the exact way Don describes it, with Pete not losing the account. It's a general feeling that Pete's in it with them and Roger isn't.

[TigerLynx]

Roger inherited his original ownership in Sterling Cooper from his father along with his money, social position and contacts/connections.  While Roger could be very charming, and bring in clients if he wanted to, for years he didn't have to.  Lane told Pete when they brought Ken on that, "Roger Sterling is a child.  You're going to need another person to help you bring in accounts," or something along those lines.  I think Don wanted his friendship with Roger back, and they needed Roger's money contribution to start the new firm.  However, I think Don also expected Roger to at least pay attention to what was going on with Lucky Strikes, and not get completely blindsided not knowing that there was a possibility they could loose the account.  They were counting on the money they got from the Lucky Strikes account to keep them going while they brought in new business.  They had some smaller accounts, but those weren't enough to keep the firm going.  This was one of the things that lead them to be so desperate to get the Jaguar account.