S06.E22: Grave

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; My all time favourite ep of Buffy is 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered'. My all time favourite scene is the ending of 'Forever' where Buffy and Dawn collapse into each other's arms. And my all time favourite Buffy moment is when Xander confronts DarkWillow and that first tear rolls down her cheek. And in that second you realise he's got her, that everything is going to be all right after all. Makes me cry every time. First saw it at a convention where they played Enrique Ingliseas' song 'Hero' over it and it was wonderful.

And little Dawnie swordfighting side by side with big sis Buffy, makes me cheer every time! Also love Willow's 'Fly my pretty!'. You'd think they'd have tried the whole bucket of water routine on her?

The Bad; Although there's supposed to be a limitless amount of root monsters you can see there's actually only 4.

Best line; DarkWillow (dismissively) "This is your master plan? Telling me that you love me?" (Yep and it's BRILLIANT!)

Jeez!; Spike and the beetles, urgh!

Kinky dinky;

Willow (upon Giles' entrance) "Uh oh, daddy's home. I'm in trouble now" Yes you are my dear, prepare for one magical spanking. Dawn finally learns of what Spike tried to do to Buffy.

Captain Subtext;

Andrew and Jonathon seem very wary of the trucker who gave them a lift. Check out Anya and Buffy flocking into Giles' arms like a couple of excited little girls happy to see their daddy home.Buffy says that Dawn will be beautiful and powerful. Face it Buff, she already is. Spike calls the demon a 'ponce'

Apocalypses; 7, Willow wants to destroy the world, come a long way since the softer side of Sears

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 4 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 2 Dawn; 4

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy and Anya knocked out again plus Xanderx2 Buffy: 19 Giles: 12 Cordy: 6 Xander: 14 Will: 8 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;5 Dawn; 3 Tara; 1

Kills: Spike kills 2 demons as does Buffy whilst Dawn kills one Buffy: 107 vamps, 58 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.

Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps + 3 demons +1 fawn+1 human.

Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1 a demon, Anya: 1 vamp and 1 a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 8 vamps and 6 demons Buffybot; 2 vamps Tara; 1 demon Dawn; 1 vamp + 1 demon Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 4 Anya; 1 Dawn; 1 Buffy; 1

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 1 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 4 Tara; 1 Dawn;1 Spike; 1 Anya; 2

Recurring characters killed: 12 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara Sunnydale deaths; 94

Total number of scoobies: 3-Giles is back Xander, Buffy, Giles Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Dawn in peril; yep, down the hole 11

Dawn the bashful virgin; 9

What the fanficcers thought; Liked the one where DarkWillow does destroy the world only for Dawn 'The Key' Summers to appear in front of her, glowing with green energy and putting it all right. Also liked the idea of Xander actually failing to persuade Willow who sides with the First Evil but in the follow up higher power Cordy turns up because she's the REAL love of Willow's life and she succeeds where Xander fails.

On a lighter note there's a good one showing Willow's first day at Sunnydale nursery (with teacher Flutie and little Harmony, Jonathon, Larry etc). We find out that actually frightened little Cordy snapped Willow's crayon because she was jealous of Willow and Xander's instant friendship, feeling excluded and leaving her to sit with Harmony. The_Yellow_Crayon. Weird one where Dru and Snyder sexually enslave Faith and Buffy in season 3 (I think it's literally called 'Buffy in a Slave Labor Camp'?). In the follow up story Snyder get's eaten by the Mayor at Graduation (who's then destroyed by the rest of the Scoobs)and Buffy just shrugs, breaks her chains and walks home into Joyce's arms whilst Dru falls in love with Faith and it's HER that get's her soul back so that they can be together.

Questions and observations; According to the commentary SMG finds it easier to cry than to laugh? Hmmmm? DarkWillow feeling the world's suffering is similar to what CC experienced in 'To Shanshu in LA'.

I know that Joss is an avowed aethiest but you have to wonder about a story where a simple carpenter saves the world by professing his love? It strikes you as very Christian. Love conquers all.

I must confess that even after the final revelation I didn't understand the twist in the tail. I genuinely thought Spike had gone to Africa to get his chip removed and that the demon had doublecrossed him and restored his soul instead. Someone at The Bronze had to correct me (hangs head in shame). But once again, love conquers all, it can save the world, it can save a friend, it can bring two sisters together and it can redeem a monster.

Marks out of 10; 9/10 just great

[wendyg]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I know that Joss is an avowed aethiest but you have to wonder about a story where a simple carpenter saves the world by professing his love? It strikes you as very Christian. Love conquers all.

Good writers steal. Great writers steal from the best. :)

But I hated the whole yellow crayon speech. It's better when the emotional manipulation isn't so obvious.

[lembergwatcher]

I loved "yellow crayon" speech. Well, maybe not the speech itself, but the scene on the Bluff in general and the fact that they let Xander do the world saving thing this time. Xander didn't have too much shining moments after season 3, so he'd earned one

Spoiler

(probably his last in the series).

And though there was a bit of "obvious emotional manipulation" in the whole thing, I liked them trying something, you know, unconventional. Not the perfect moment, but still something new compared to previous "I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I come. I kick ass. I win" season finales. I dare say it's way better to have Xander with his somewhat childishly naive speech saving Willow and the mankind

Spoiler

than the annoying bleached vampire with the sun shining literally from his skinny ass as we saw it in the series' finale.

As a a devoted W/X fan I like their moments. Despite all the "emotional manipulations" and everything else, I love that one as well. Probably because there were less and less scenes between the two without other annoying characters in the picture (Oz, Anya, sometimes Tara, Dawn) with every new season. I can't say I like Grave, but I definitely like the scene on the Bluff. Some glimpse of hope amidst the disappointment that were the seasons 6

Spoiler

and 7.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Personally, I am too pissed by the idiotic premise of "Willow tries to destroy the world" to appreciate Xander saving said world. And that's coming from someone who utterly loves the Willow-Xander bond. The whole thing comes across as a stupid contrivance:

Writer 1: Hey, Willow killed some people but this just isn't dark and dramatic enough for a finale. What to do, what to do?

Writer 2: How about she tries to destroy the world? People loved that shit in previous season finales.

Writer 1: You are a genius! Destroy the world it is!

Intern: But what about consistent characterization, boss? Willow isn't your run of the mill Big Bad who is evil for the lulz.

Writer 1: She is now.

Spoiler

Just for an episode and then all is forgiven. People love Spike and Anya, am I right? Concentrate on writing my Emmy acceptance speech.

 

And then there is the idiocy of some off-screen coven giving Giles tremendous powers, instead of, I don't know, sending some of their members to do the job.

[Halting Hex]

10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

a simple carpenter saves the world by professing his love? It strikes you as very Christian.

In the season where Xander is identified as "Christian" for the first time ever.

In the season where Jewish Willow becomes a murderer, and tries to use a "Satanic" temple (a word never used before on the series, not even for the First Evil) to destroy the world.

In the season where the series' other presumed-Jewish character (Jonathan Levinson) commits felony murder.  (He may have only taken active part in the assault and kidnapping of Katrina, but once you sign on for that, you take the freight for Warren's murder; that's how the law works.) Oh, and after promising to turn himself in this episode, he actually runs away, instead.

Hell, in the season where Carl Savitsky won't give Buffy a loan.

See the problem here?  Some of us on TWoP were not exactly thrilled with our show being smothered in "Yay, Jesus!" symbolism (including Buffy's angel-wings in After Life) and talk of a Christian Heeeeeeeeeeeeeaven (we don't believe in that shit) in the very same season where our representative was portrayed as irresponsible, addicted, codependent, fucking crazypants, and eventually a multiple murderer.  It was a BIG kerfuffle, to the point where even if you go into the waybacked archives, you will have trouble finding all of the relevant posts, because the mods there did a certain amount of excising.

Ironically enough, the death of Tara and the "Dark!"Willow run made allies of a sort of pissed-off lesbian W/Ters and pissed-off Jewish Willow fans, because we had essentially they same arguments thrown at us. "Well, other characters die, too! Look at Jenny Calendar!"  (Yes, but the hetero couples weren't completely wiped out, the way the gay characters were: 1 dead, one crazy and evil) was pretty much like "Lots of characters do lots of evil shit! Look at Spike!" (Yes, but Spike isn't the only character on the show.  No matter what the writers think.  Whereas Willow is the only explicitly Jewish character on the show.  Which has now become "Jews=evil, Christians=good".  Whether Joss intended it or not.)

So even if I do like parts of the yellow-crayon speech (it's very cool that Xander loves Willow so much that he's willing to take even death as an experience they can share, that he willing to be there with her in such a fundamental way), Joss can take "crazy Jew saved by the love of a steadfast 'carpenter'" and shove it up his allegedly-nonexistent crucifix.  It's one thing to have Buffy be wearing a goddamn crucifix since day one to repel vampires (Joss even claimed, in cut lines from Becoming Part 1, that Joyce and Hank were both agnostics, but of course we see Buffy celebrating Christmas in Amends), but I can buy that as part of the premise.  JEEEEEZUS defeating Willow?  Not so much.  So yeah, when the Kittens were upset about Good Ol' Manly Xander saving the world from Crazy Nuts Evil Lesbo Witch-Girl, I rather got where they were coming from.  Even if my own Judaism didn't survive the decade. 

(I eventually accepted that I didn't actually believe in "God" and was just standing up for my "team" in situations such as this, and became the atheist I'd always been at heart.  Still don't see what the big deal is about bacon, though.  It's just fried lunch meat; who cares?)

Also, Giles's whole "we'll trust Xander to get through to Willow" plan might have worked better if they'd, you know, actually told Xander about it.  If Xander had come back to the Box to find out what the plan was (which would be logical, and born out of long-standing habit), the world would have ended.  Good show, Giles.

Almost as awesome was Buffy and Giles taking a break from fighting Willow (oh, but she's bound! No danger now!) to laugh at the audience for being invested in the plot of the season.  Repulsive beyond repulsive.  And of course Buffy doesn't mention the rape, because that's not really "laugh it off" material.  Way to sweep Spanky's crimes right under the rug, just in time for him to get his shiny new excuse soul.

And let's not forget that Buffy, who's only the title character, is made completely irrelevant in the season finale.  She's dropped down a hole, where she can't even beat dirt. Remember those old detergent ads that claimed that Tide™ is "stronger than dirt"?  Well, then by the transitive property, Tide™ is also stronger than Buffy.  Because, again, Buffy couldn't even beat dirt.  Shit.

Also, I don't care how much Dawn "watched" Buffy (when?  Most of the time when Dawn was at a battle, she was screeching for help), it's a little different to have to actually wield the sword.  Key-face doesn't have Slayer-strength or Slayer-reflexes, last I checked.  I suppose it's good that we follow up last season's idiotic finale where Buffy can somehow use Dawn's abilities to close the portal, even though Buffy isn't the Key and there's no way that could actually work, with this idiotic finale where we're supposed to equate Dawn with Buffy as a fighter even though, again, Buffy's the fucking SLAYER (again, it's in the title of the show!) and Dawnie…isn't, but come on. I've got enough shit to be angry about, you don't need to throw in extras, honestly.

And so Buffy and Dawn climb out of the hole, and have their "tampon-commercial moment" (not my phrase, but a keeper, IMO), where Buffy pledges to show Dawn "the world".  

Spoiler

Said "world" will look an awful lot like Buffy's living room in S7, but that's for later…

Meantime, we still can't even get a funeral for Tara, which offends me.  And I didn't even like her! But that would distract from our X/W finish, which got rather tarnished when Joss started going on about how this was something special he was doing for those fans, given that a) Willow the world-destroying murderer is your idea of a present? and b)

Spoiler

that made things crystal-clear that the two of them would be completely irrelevant in S7.  Willow? Xander? Don't be greedy.  They had their "big moment" last year.  Now sit back and shut up and worship Buffy and Spike.  He got a SOOOOOOOOUL for her, you know.

Honestly, I called it immediately after this, just by listening to Joss's bragging.  Nice to see I was right. Except not.

Marks: 2/10.  1 point for the Xillow, and another 1 for Spike getting a bug up his nose.  Not the absolute worst, but still a fitting end to an extremely shitty season.  "Like watching a friend die", as I would later write.

Ah, well, S7 is bound to be better, right? Right?  

Spoiler

Right.  Just not very much.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And then there is the idiocy of some off-screen coven giving Giles tremendous powers, instead of, I don't know, sending some of their members to do the job.

I like how Giles isn't wearing his glasses for the big Magick showdown.  Because magic clears up your astigmatism, is that it?  I always imagine his accidentally blasting Anya through the wall and then going "oops! My bad!"

From "Lines You'll Never Hear on BtVS":

Quote

GILES (to Buffy): You…you've cut your hair.

ANYA (feeling excluded):  Me, too.  (Giles and Buffy ignore her)  I'm blonde, now.

GILES:  I see.  Did you dye the pubes to match?

BUFFY:  Wait, what?

ANYA:  No, I just had them put in blonde highlights, in the shape of a dollar sign.

GILES:  Rawr.

BUFFY: Oh, for fuck's sake…

Edited November 3, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Whereas Willow is the only explicitly Jewish character on the show.  Which has now become "Jews=evil, Christians=good".

Portraying Willow, the only explicitly Jewish character on the show, as a psycho murderer bound to destroy the world, can be viewed as offensive by Jewish people. Just like portraying Genevieve Holt, the only explicitly Christian character on the show, as a sadist and mindless fanatic who ruined innocent children's lives, must have been equally offensive to Christians.  But who were the other Christians in the series? 'Cause I don't remember many of them. Buffy? Xander? Anya?.. There's no evidence whatsoever that most members of the Scooby Gang, past or present, have practiced any religion (maybe except for Riley, but he wasn't in the picture by the end of the season sux). Celebrating Christmas alone cannot be viewed as proof of Christianity, since that holiday has lost most of its connection to religion in the West long ago. So what exactly proves their supposed Christianity? Presence of the priests on Joyce's funeral or Xander's wedding? That's hardly a case of an explicit Christianity I dare say (at least not as explicit as Ira Rosenberg's supposed dislike for crucifix at the wall of his only daughter's bedroom). The thing is, writers chose to ignore that side of Xander's, Buffy's or Giles' lives, thus we don't know how far or deep did their devotion to any religion go...

Therefore Willow and Xander by no means can be viewed as some sort of, you know, "representatives" of either Jews or non-Jews/Christians in any way, shape or form.

Poor Joss (I never thought I'll use those two words in one sentence). He tried to be progressive to the core, but you can't please every single segment of the audience no matter how hard you try. Thus some people hate what he has done to a few Jewish characters on the show. Others dislike the way the show portrayed black people or other minorities. Btw most blacks in the series were either evil (Absalom, Mr. Trick) or dead in the end (Mr. Platt, Forrest, Nikki Wood, the poor porter from Sunnydale Station) or

Spoiler

were beaten up by some white guy (Robin) or mostly white girls (some cops from Sunnydale PD). In fact until the potentials arrived in the following season we didn't see too many non-whites at the frontline of the battle against Evil.

Other people point at quite bizarre fact that there were no Hispanics in Sunnydale, California! So the discussion can be endless...

[Halting Hex]

50 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

So what exactly proves their supposed Christianity? Presence of the priests on Joyce's funeral or Xander's wedding? That's hardly a case of an explicit Christianity

Xander is not only identified as Christian in Hell's Bells, but affiliated with a particular church:

Quote

COUSIN CAROL:  No, no. The Harrises are very broad-minded. We're Episcopalians.

And yes, we don't know how devout Xander might be, but the fact that he was planning on getting married by a minister indicates a certain religiosity, IMO.  Since he can't be doing it out of his deep love for Tony and Jessica, after all.  And City Hall is a lot cheaper.  And it's not as if Anya's the Christian half of the couple;

Spoiler

Sweden was still pagan in the 9th Century

It's true that Riley's the only character we ever see attending church (and for all we know, he's a Buddhist taking a Comparative Religion course), but we can take inference from other cues.  Giles quotes scripture in Prophecy Girl; he was probably raised Anglican, rather than atheist.  Cordelia gets in the "supplicant" prayer position (on the knees, hands together in front of face) to ask for God's aid in School Hard;  that speaks of at least a certain amount of "now I lay me down to sleep" nightly devotions in her upbringing.  And we rather suspected that Willow was Jewish long before she explicitly came out and said it in Amends.  (Where she showed the same basic twitchiness that many of her co-religionists do about being told to just accept "Christian culture" as part of being American:  "What are you doing for Christmas?"  "Being Jewish".  You go, Willow.)

So yeah, Crayon Christ Boy being all "save the fallen Jew with love" still makes me itch, my own neo-atheism aside.

50 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Celebrating Christmas alone cannot be viewed as proof of Christianity, since that holiday has lost most of its connection to religion in the West long ago

I really, really disagree with this, but I have a feeling this discussion will lead us nowhere good, so I've deleted my initial reply.  Onward?

Edited November 3, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

14 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Andrew and Jonathon seem very wary of the trucker who gave them a lift.

Ha-ha, the cute murderers got away!  But don't worry, they might get raped!  That makes it all better, right?

And, even better, it's gay rape!  Because that's really funny!

Not exactly my favorite part of the episode, let's just say.

[lembergwatcher]

I think it wasn't too bad that the monkeyboys got out of Sunnydale.

Spoiler

If they stayed out of the picture for the rest of the series, it would have been bloody brilliant IMO.

Btw, was the guy's name Jonathon or Jonathan? Anyway those two are too insignificant from my POV to even remember their names or write them properly. So basically I didn't care back then.

Spoiler

And Jonathan/Jonathon will meet his demise in the subsequent season. As for Andrew, well the things unfortunately turned out to be more complicated. But everyone is free to write a post-Chosen fanfic where Andrew is tortured to death/swallowed by giant snake/raped by the gang of Fyarl demons.

[Halting Hex]

I think most people who write "Jonathon" just don't know the Hebrew antecedent ("yo-na-tan") and that it not only demands an "a" but the same "a" as after the "n" (Hebrew has two "a" vowels, one of which was pronounced "aw" until it got Americanized), but certainly there are people named "Jonathon" out there.  I don't think that Mr. Levinson is intended to be one of them, but I'd have to check every one of Danny Strong's appearances where he doesn't get "guest star" credit to see which one it is here, and how consistent the show is about it.  (I know that he's only listed as "Hostage Kid" in What's My Line Part 2, for example.)

I have a feeling that it's mostly written "Jonathan", because if it had come up the other way, I would have seen it and gotten honked off (I honk easily, you may have noticed), but that's just a guess, I'll admit.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:51 AM, wendyg said:

Good writers steal. Great writers steal from the best. :)

But I hated the whole yellow crayon speech. It's better when the emotional manipulation isn't so obvious.

But this is something overwhelmingly primal, a reasoned argument wouldn't have worked here, reaching out to Will's emotional core was the key. 

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:37 AM, lembergwatcher said:

I loved "yellow crayon" speech. Well, maybe not the speech itself, but the scene on the Bluff in general and the fact that they let Xander do the world saving thing this time. Xander didn't have too much shining moments after season 3, so he'd earned one

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(probably his last in the series).

And though there was a bit of "obvious emotional manipulation" in the whole thing, I liked them trying something, you know, unconventional. Not the perfect moment, but still something new compared to previous "I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I come. I kick ass. I win" season finales. I dare say it's way better to have Xander with his somewhat childishly naive speech saving Willow and the mankind

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than the annoying bleached vampire with the sun shining literally from his skinny ass as we saw it in the series' finale.

As a a devoted W/X fan I like their moments. Despite all the "emotional manipulations" and everything else, I love that one as well. Probably because there were less and less scenes between the two without other annoying characters in the picture (Oz, Anya, sometimes Tara, Dawn) with every new season. I can't say I like Grave, but I definitely like the scene on the Bluff. Some glimpse of hope amidst the disappointment that were the seasons 6

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and 7.

My theory was always that Xander and Willow made love on the bluff after she collapses into his arms, hence why 

Spoiler

she's able to tell him in s7 that she's 'over you sweetie', they've finally consummated their love for one another. 

 

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:22 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Personally, I am too pissed by the idiotic premise of "Willow tries to destroy the world" to appreciate Xander saving said world. And that's coming from someone who utterly loves the Willow-Xander bond. The whole thing comes across as a stupid contrivance:

Writer 1: Hey, Willow killed some people but this just isn't dark and dramatic enough for a finale. What to do, what to do?

Writer 2: How about she tries to destroy the world? People loved that shit in previous season finales.

Writer 1: You are a genius! Destroy the world it is!

Intern: But what about consistent characterization, boss? Willow isn't your run of the mill Big Bad who is evil for the lulz.

Writer 1: She is now.

  Hide contents

Just for an episode and then all is forgiven. People love Spike and Anya, am I right? Concentrate on writing my Emmy acceptance speech.

 

And then there is the idiocy of some off-screen coven giving Giles tremendous powers, instead of, I don't know, sending some of their members to do the job.

The 'contrivance' has been there for quite some time, ever since Giles warns her of the dangers of magic in s3, right through to her treatment of Tara and behaviour around Buffy's resurrection.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:43 PM, Halting Hex said:

In the season where Xander is identified as "Christian" for the first time ever.

In the season where Jewish Willow becomes a murderer, and tries to use a "Satanic" temple (a word never used before on the series, not even for the First Evil) to destroy the world.

In the season where the series' other presumed-Jewish character (Jonathan Levinson) commits felony murder.  (He may have only taken active part in the assault and kidnapping of Katrina, but once you sign on for that, you take the freight for Warren's murder; that's how the law works.) Oh, and after promising to turn himself in this episode, he actually runs away, instead.

Hell, in the season where Carl Savitsky won't give Buffy a loan.

See the problem here?  Some of us on TWoP were not exactly thrilled with our show being smothered in "Yay, Jesus!" symbolism (including Buffy's angel-wings in After Life) and talk of a Christian Heeeeeeeeeeeeeaven (we don't believe in that shit) in the very same season where our representative was portrayed as irresponsible, addicted, codependent, fucking crazypants, and eventually a multiple murderer.  It was a BIG kerfuffle, to the point where even if you go into the waybacked archives, you will have trouble finding all of the relevant posts, because the mods there did a certain amount of excising.

Ironically enough, the death of Tara and the "Dark!"Willow run made allies of a sort of pissed-off lesbian W/Ters and pissed-off Jewish Willow fans, because we had essentially they same arguments thrown at us. "Well, other characters die, too! Look at Jenny Calendar!"  (Yes, but the hetero couples weren't completely wiped out, the way the gay characters were: 1 dead, one crazy and evil) was pretty much like "Lots of characters do lots of evil shit! Look at Spike!" (Yes, but Spike isn't the only character on the show.  No matter what the writers think.  Whereas Willow is the only explicitly Jewish character on the show.  Which has now become "Jews=evil, Christians=good".  Whether Joss intended it or not.)

So even if I do like parts of the yellow-crayon speech (it's very cool that Xander loves Willow so much that he's willing to take even death as an experience they can share, that he willing to be there with her in such a fundamental way), Joss can take "crazy Jew saved by the love of a steadfast 'carpenter'" and shove it up his allegedly-nonexistent crucifix.  It's one thing to have Buffy be wearing a goddamn crucifix since day one to repel vampires (Joss even claimed, in cut lines from Becoming Part 1, that Joyce and Hank were both agnostics, but of course we see Buffy celebrating Christmas in Amends), but I can buy that as part of the premise.  JEEEEEZUS defeating Willow?  Not so much.  So yeah, when the Kittens were upset about Good Ol' Manly Xander saving the world from Crazy Nuts Evil Lesbo Witch-Girl, I rather got where they were coming from.  Even if my own Judaism didn't survive the decade. 

(I eventually accepted that I didn't actually believe in "God" and was just standing up for my "team" in situations such as this, and became the atheist I'd always been at heart.  Still don't see what the big deal is about bacon, though.  It's just fried lunch meat; who cares?)

Also, Giles's whole "we'll trust Xander to get through to Willow" plan might have worked better if they'd, you know, actually told Xander about it.  If Xander had come back to the Box to find out what the plan was (which would be logical, and born out of long-standing habit), the world would have ended.  Good show, Giles.

Almost as awesome was Buffy and Giles taking a break from fighting Willow (oh, but she's bound! No danger now!) to laugh at the audience for being invested in the plot of the season.  Repulsive beyond repulsive.  And of course Buffy doesn't mention the rape, because that's not really "laugh it off" material.  Way to sweep Spanky's crimes right under the rug, just in time for him to get his shiny new excuse soul.

And let's not forget that Buffy, who's only the title character, is made completely irrelevant in the season finale.  She's dropped down a hole, where she can't even beat dirt. Remember those old detergent ads that claimed that Tide™ is "stronger than dirt"?  Well, then by the transitive property, Tide™ is also stronger than Buffy.  Because, again, Buffy couldn't even beat dirt.  Shit.

Also, I don't care how much Dawn "watched" Buffy (when?  Most of the time when Dawn was at a battle, she was screeching for help), it's a little different to have to actually wield the sword.  Key-face doesn't have Slayer-strength or Slayer-reflexes, last I checked.  I suppose it's good that we follow up last season's idiotic finale where Buffy can somehow use Dawn's abilities to close the portal, even though Buffy isn't the Key and there's no way that could actually work, with this idiotic finale where we're supposed to equate Dawn with Buffy as a fighter even though, again, Buffy's the fucking SLAYER (again, it's in the title of the show!) and Dawnie…isn't, but come on. I've got enough shit to be angry about, you don't need to throw in extras, honestly.

And so Buffy and Dawn climb out of the hole, and have their "tampon-commercial moment" (not my phrase, but a keeper, IMO), where Buffy pledges to show Dawn "the world".  

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Said "world" will look an awful lot like Buffy's living room in S7, but that's for later…

Meantime, we still can't even get a funeral for Tara, which offends me.  And I didn't even like her! But that would distract from our X/W finish, which got rather tarnished when Joss started going on about how this was something special he was doing for those fans, given that a) Willow the world-destroying murderer is your idea of a present? and b)

  Reveal hidden contents

that made things crystal-clear that the two of them would be completely irrelevant in S7.  Willow? Xander? Don't be greedy.  They had their "big moment" last year.  Now sit back and shut up and worship Buffy and Spike.  He got a SOOOOOOOOUL for her, you know.

Honestly, I called it immediately after this, just by listening to Joss's bragging.  Nice to see I was right. Except not.

Marks: 2/10.  1 point for the Xillow, and another 1 for Spike getting a bug up his nose.  Not the absolute worst, but still a fitting end to an extremely shitty season.  "Like watching a friend die", as I would later write.

Ah, well, S7 is bound to be better, right? Right?  

  Reveal hidden contents

Right.  Just not very much.

I must say I never considered all that, I doubt Willow is a very observant Jew, she liked hot dogs on a stick. 

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:49 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Portraying Willow, the only explicitly Jewish character on the show, as a psycho murderer bound to destroy the world, can be viewed as offensive by Jewish people. Just like portraying Genevieve Holt, the only explicitly Christian character on the show, as a sadist and mindless fanatic who ruined innocent children's lives, must have been equally offensive to Christians.  But who were the other Christians in the series? 'Cause I don't remember many of them. Buffy? Xander? Anya?.. There's no evidence whatsoever that most members of the Scooby Gang, past or present, have practiced any religion (maybe except for Riley, but he wasn't in the picture by the end of the season sux). Celebrating Christmas alone cannot be viewed as proof of Christianity, since that holiday has lost most of its connection to religion in the West long ago. So what exactly proves their supposed Christianity? Presence of the priests on Joyce's funeral or Xander's wedding? That's hardly a case of an explicit Christianity I dare say (at least not as explicit as Ira Rosenberg's supposed dislike for crucifix at the wall of his only daughter's bedroom). The thing is, writers chose to ignore that side of Xander's, Buffy's or Giles' lives, thus we don't know how far or deep did their devotion to any religion go...

Therefore Willow and Xander by no means can be viewed as some sort of, you know, "representatives" of either Jews or non-Jews/Christians in any way, shape or form.

Poor Joss (I never thought I'll use those two words in one sentence). He tried to be progressive to the core, but you can't please every single segment of the audience no matter how hard you try. Thus some people hate what he has done to a few Jewish characters on the show. Others dislike the way the show portrayed black people or other minorities. Btw most blacks in the series were either evil (Absalom, Mr. Trick) or dead in the end (Mr. Platt, Forrest, Nikki Wood, the poor porter from Sunnydale Station) or

  Reveal hidden contents

were beaten up by some white guy (Robin) or mostly white girls (some cops from Sunnydale PD). In fact until the potentials arrived in the following season we didn't see too many non-whites at the frontline of the battle against Evil.

Other people point at quite bizarre fact that there were no Hispanics in Sunnydale, California! So the discussion can be endless...

Well I've been to Santa Barbara and that's not inaccurate, we do get some Hispanic characters in s7

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:52 PM, Halting Hex said:

Ha-ha, the cute murderers got away!  But don't worry, they might get raped!  That makes it all better, right?

And, even better, it's gay rape!  Because that's really funny!

Not exactly my favorite part of the episode, let's just say.

No it's played for laughs and Jonathan and the other one will have to face up to their actions in s7, plus they're not murderers. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The 'contrivance' has been there for quite some time, ever since Giles warns her of the dangers of magic in s3, right through to her treatment of Tara and behaviour around Buffy's resurrection.  

None of this indicated any desire to, you know, destroy the word. And I would argue that the mind-wipes were just as contrived anyway, so explaining one contrivance with another doesn't work for me.

[DigitalCount]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

No it's played for laughs and Jonathan and the other one will have to face up to their actions in s7, plus they're not murderers. 

As identified earlier, the law disagrees. They were active participants in the kidnapping of Katrina, and kidnapping is one of the basic "inherently dangerous felonies" that can turn an inadvertent death into second degree murder. The idea here is that Jonathan and Andrew did a felonious thing that they pretty much knew could or would end in someone's death, and since it's no surprise to anyone when it does, all the participants in the original felony share the blame for the eventual, easily predictable death. Most states with this rule list burglary, arson, robbery, rape and kidnapping as the inherently dangerous felonies, and California is one of the states with a felony murder rule.

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

As identified earlier, the law disagrees. They were active participants in the kidnapping of Katrina, and kidnapping is one of the basic "inherently dangerous felonies" that can turn an inadvertent death into second degree murder. The idea here is that Jonathan and Andrew did a felonious thing that they pretty much knew could or would end in someone's death, and since it's no surprise to anyone when it does, all the participants in the original felony share the blame for the eventual, easily predictable death. Most states with this rule list burglary, arson, robbery, rape and kidnapping as the inherently dangerous felonies, and California is one of the states with a felony murder rule.

Yes, they may be accomplices and technically guilty but they never intended to hurt anyone. 

[lembergwatcher]

11 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

but they never intended to hurt anyone.

How does being a part of the self-proclaimed "evil" Trio intended to take over Sunnydale and make Buffy's life a living hell relate to "never intending to hurt anyone"?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:30 AM, lembergwatcher said:

How does being a part of the self-proclaimed "evil" Trio intended to take over Sunnydale and make Buffy's life a living hell relate to "never intending to hurt anyone"?

They aim to take over SD but not hurt anyone, they just want to keep Buffy out of the way. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

If only they could move to literally any other town and operate without pesky Slayers or witches getting in the way...

[Joe Hellandback]

22 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If only they could move to literally any other town and operate without pesky Slayers or witches getting in the way...

True but SD is their home and also full of the magic they need. 

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If only they could move to literally any other town and operate without pesky Slayers or witches getting in the way...

They're vampires, they're naturally drawn to the Hellmouth's mystical energy.

"Hold on.  I may have detected a small flaw." —Spike, Primeval.

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

They're vampires, they're naturally drawn to the Hellmouth's mystical energy.

"Hold on.  I may have detected a small flaw." —Spike, Primeval.

No, we're talking about the Geeks. 

[Halting Hex]

Yes, that was the joke.  Hence the Spike quote about the "flaw" in the show's logic…

[Joe Hellandback]

6 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Yes, that was the joke.  Hence the Spike quote about the "flaw" in the show's logic…

If you want to use magic, best to stay in SD

[Jack Shaftoe]

People in LA had no problems using magic. Or people around the whole world in the comics. Warren was more of a tech guy that a warlock anyway and the lack of opposition more than makes up for possibly weaker magic outside of Sunnydale.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎08‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:37 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

People in LA had no problems using magic. Or people around the whole world in the comics. Warren was more of a tech guy that a warlock anyway and the lack of opposition more than makes up for possibly weaker magic outside of Sunnydale.

True but they wanted to take over Sunnydale specifically, perhaps to get revenge on those who wronged them in the past?

[lembergwatcher]

Thinking about the whole Yellow Crayon thing, I can't help wondering why did it have to happen. As a big fan of everything related to W/X and their friendship/love, I was over the moon everytime they were in close proximity (and what else could I expect?).

But here's the thing: since when were the writers so willing to "satisfy" a small group of Xillow fans, they had to throw away the entire story arc of four consecutive seasons (2-5 to be precise)? Isn't it supposed to be a fait accompli since the second half of the season 2 that Buffy is Willow's best and closest friend? Count all the B/W scenes throughout seasons 2-6 and then all W/X, and you know what I mean. Xander and Willow are mostly BFINO (best friends in name only) post-The Fluke - not least thanks to Anya and Tara being important parts of their lives. Willow and Buffy OTOH have much more in common, more common topics to discuss and their connection is shown to be way stronger than anything each of them shares with Xander the Glorified Extra. Even despite her obvious issues in the sixth season Buffy tries to act as a concerned friend during Willow's fight with her magic adiction phase. They live under the same roof, communicate more often and Willow still loves Buffy and considers her a friend. Xander? Where's Xander? He's not even in the picture most of the time.

So why does it have to be Xander to climb the Kingmans Bluff and save his childhood friend? Because the writers were embarrassed for putting him down and turning into some glorified wallpaper for so long? Or was it like: "Gee, how could we forget those two are supposed to be the best friends since kindergarten? How do we fix it??"?

Spoiler

Was the Yellow Crayon scene intended to be some kind of a "bone" thrown to Xillow fans just to "help" us all accept turning Xander and Willow into totally irrelevant shadows of their former selves in the final season? But why the heck do they have to be irrelevant and not, say, dead? Why not kill both of them just there at the Bluff, why not let them go down in one final blaze of glory? Why not make that Proserpexa's effigy fall on former Slayerettes? I mean, Buffy obviously doesn't give a fuck about Willow and Xander in the season 7. What is the reason for them being around, after all? The purpose?

Too many "whys" and "whats" I guess...

Edited December 14, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Loandbehold]

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

So why does it have to be Xander to climb the Kingmans Bluff and save his childhood friend?

I think you touch on it in your post. Xander can remind Willow of who she was for most of her life, as opposed to Buffy who only goes back to sophomore year of high school. And, that's putting aside that they just spent a wee bit of time trying to kill each other in the Magic Box. It may have been part fan service, but I think it works for the finale of this story.

[Halting Hex]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Count all the B/W scenes throughout seasons 2-6 and then all W/X, and you know what I mean.

Well, Buffy is the star of the show.  She's gonna suck up the screen time, it's inevitable.  The problem wasn't so much that Willow stopped wanting to hang out with her old pal Xander, it's that with Angel now a regular, more of Buffy's scenes went to him, and there was a greater emphasis on "couples", which separated W/X just as much as it separated B/W or B/X.  Yes, Buffy and Willow talk about Oz in Phases…but so do Buffy and Xander, and B/X talk about his relationship with Cordelia in BB&B, and about Angel's plans for Buffy in Becoming, Part 1, and so on.  I don't see Xander sent to the bench or anything that season.  

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

[In Season 6, Buffy and Willow] live under the same roof, communicate more often and Willow still loves Buffy and considers her a friend.

Buffy and Willow have one conversation in the first eight episodes of that wretched season, Buffy seems repulsed by Willow's addiction in Wrecked, and they still barely communicate.  (The tag in Gone is nice, and so is Willow offering to hate the Sam-O-Matic 5000 on Buffy's behalf in As You Were, but it's still thin stuff.  Bar Normal Again, but Xander's there, too, of course.)  Honestly, it feels as though Buffy spends more time in her new friendship with St. Tara than she does with Willow.  (And don't get me started on Spike, of course.)

For the most part in Season Sux, Xander seems to be portrayed as steady and dependable, where Willow is a useless addict and another burden for poor suffering Buffy to endure.  Yay?

1 hour ago, Loandbehold said:

Xander can remind Willow of who she was for most of her life…It may have been part fan service, but I think it works for the finale of this story.

To an extent, but it serves to exclude Buffy from the finale, which detaches her from W/X.  

Spoiler

(And which thus sets the stage for the exclusion W/X next year…"oh, they're not really a part of Buffy's story, that's about Spike and Dawn!  We gave Aly and Nick their big scene last year, they can just take it easy and cash their paychecks now."  Feh.)

 

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Why not kill [Willow and Xander] just there at the Bluff, why not let them go down in one final blaze of glory?

Because then you start running out of characters.  With her boyfriend dead and her business destroyed and being able to travel the world as a vengeance demon, what's keeping Anya in town?  And if ASH isn't willing to sign up for full-time duty again, that means you have only Buffy, Spike, and Dawn.  (Assuming Spike even returns from Africa, but that seems likely.)  Even the most devout Spuffy 'shipper might find that a bit empty.

Yes, you can always introduce new characters, but it would feel odd having the final season dominated by cast members we hadn't seen before, IMO.  Obviously, since W/X aren't dead, we'll never know, but still.

[lembergwatcher]

28 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

that means you have only Buffy, Spike, and Dawn.

But isn't it the key message of the Dawnverse?
I think Spuffy fans wouldn't mind at all. In fact that would've made the B/S "bond" even stronger,

Spoiler

And since W/X aren't "really a part of Buffy's story" anymore, why waste the screen time on such an irrelevant characters if their contribution to the story is next to nothing?

[Halting Hex]

I suppose there's also the fact that Aly, Nick, and Emma were all in the first year of two-year contracts, just like the rest of the main cast.    Kill Willow and Xander and write off Anya, and you're eating 66 paychecks, which is a nice chunk of change.

"It's not 'show friends', it's 'show business'", as the saying goes.  If we're paying them, we're using them, I'm sure somebody told Joss.  (Not that he needed reminding, being 3rd-generation Hollywood, himself, no doubt.)

Edited December 14, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Spoiler

They could go on with Ghost!Willow and Ghost!Xander. Both would appear time after time, say some lines (mostly 1-2 lines for the duration of an episode), have fun at the graveyard and even help Buffy in one way or another. At least they'd still be around but their irrelevance won't seem so sad. But JMO.

[Melancholy]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, Buffy is the star of the show.  She's gonna suck up the screen time, it's inevitable.  The problem wasn't so much that Willow stopped wanting to hang out with her old pal Xander, it's that with Angel now a regular, more of Buffy's scenes went to him, and there was a greater emphasis on "couples", which separated W/X just as much as it separated B/W or B/X.  Yes, Buffy and Willow talk about Oz in Phases…but so do Buffy and Xander, and B/X talk about his relationship with Cordelia in BB&B, and about Angel's plans for Buffy in Becoming, Part 1, and so on.  I don't see Xander sent to the bench or anything that season.  

Buffy and Willow have one conversation in the first eight episodes of that wretched season, Buffy seems repulsed by Willow's addiction in Wrecked, and they still barely communicate.  (The tag in Gone is nice, and so is Willow offering to hate the Sam-O-Matic 5000 on Buffy's behalf in As You Were, but it's still thin stuff.  Bar Normal Again, but Xander's there, too, of course.)  Honestly, it feels as though Buffy spends more time in her new friendship with St. Tara than she does with Willow.  (And don't get me started on Spike, of course.)

For the most part in Season Sux, Xander seems to be portrayed as steady and dependable, where Willow is a useless addict and another burden for poor suffering Buffy to endure.  Yay?

To an extent, but it serves to exclude Buffy from the finale, which detaches her from W/X.  

  Reveal hidden contents

(And which thus sets the stage for the exclusion W/X next year…"oh, they're not really a part of Buffy's story, that's about Spike and Dawn!  We gave Aly and Nick their big scene last year, they can just take it easy and cash their paychecks now."  Feh.)

 

Because then you start running out of characters.  With her boyfriend dead and her business destroyed and being able to travel the world as a vengeance demon, what's keeping Anya in town?  And if ASH isn't willing to sign up for full-time duty again, that means you have only Buffy, Spike, and Dawn.  (Assuming Spike even returns from Africa, but that seems likely.)  Even the most devout Spuffy 'shipper might find that a bit empty.

Yes, you can always introduce new characters, but it would feel odd having the final season dominated by cast members we hadn't seen before, IMO.  Obviously, since W/X aren't dead, we'll never know, but still.

Spoiler

S7 did end up introducing new characters and came to be defined by new characters taking over from the core cast. Wood, the Potentials, Andrew as a nominal member of Team Good  

That said, ending Willow’s tenure on the show as the Big Bad is even more repulsive than what we got IMO. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

ending Willow’s tenure on the show as the Big Bad is even more repulsive than what we got

Spoiler

You mean, even more repulsive than being reduced to Buffy's yes-girl ready to follow every stupid and outright dangerous plan, i.e. Slayer activation spell? I dare say going down in the blaze of glory on the Bluff was somewhat better option than being eventually overshadowed by Spike. 

And technically speaking, Willow wasn't the Big Bad after Xander's speech.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:31 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Thinking about the whole Yellow Crayon thing, I can't help wondering why did it have to happen. As a big fan of everything related to W/X and their friendship/love, I was over the moon everytime they were in close proximity (and what else could I expect?).

But here's the thing: since when were the writers so willing to "satisfy" a small group of Xillow fans, they had to throw away the entire story arc of four consecutive seasons (2-5 to be precise)? Isn't it supposed to be a fait accompli since the second half of the season 2 that Buffy is Willow's best and closest friend? Count all the B/W scenes throughout seasons 2-6 and then all W/X, and you know what I mean. Xander and Willow are mostly BFINO (best friends in name only) post-The Fluke - not least thanks to Anya and Tara being important parts of their lives. Willow and Buffy OTOH have much more in common, more common topics to discuss and their connection is shown to be way stronger than anything each of them shares with Xander the Glorified Extra. Even despite her obvious issues in the sixth season Buffy tries to act as a concerned friend during Willow's fight with her magic adiction phase. They live under the same roof, communicate more often and Willow still loves Buffy and considers her a friend. Xander? Where's Xander? He's not even in the picture most of the time.

So why does it have to be Xander to climb the Kingmans Bluff and save his childhood friend? Because the writers were embarrassed for putting him down and turning into some glorified wallpaper for so long? Or was it like: "Gee, how could we forget those two are supposed to be the best friends since kindergarten? How do we fix it??"?

  Hide contents

Was the Yellow Crayon scene intended to be some kind of a "bone" thrown to Xillow fans just to "help" us all accept turning Xander and Willow into totally irrelevant shadows of their former selves in the final season? But why the heck do they have to be irrelevant and not, say, dead? Why not kill both of them just there at the Bluff, why not let them go down in one final blaze of glory? Why not make that Proserpexa's effigy fall on former Slayerettes? I mean, Buffy obviously doesn't give a fuck about Willow and Xander in the season 7. What is the reason for them being around, after all? The purpose?

Too many "whys" and "whats" I guess...

I think it was a along planned thing, Xander has been spending the season bemoaning his uselessness but now he gets his chance to shine to the delight of many fans who resented how much he had been neglected. 

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:03 PM, Melancholy said:

  Hide contents

S7 did end up introducing new characters and came to be defined by new characters taking over from the core cast. Wood, the Potentials, Andrew as a nominal member of Team Good  

That said, ending Willow’s tenure on the show as the Big Bad is even more repulsive than what we got IMO. 

Yes, the show is about redemption, not killing your friend in her rage 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander has been spending the season bemoaning his uselessness but now he gets his chance to shine to the delight of many fans who resented how much he had been neglected.

Spoiler

But his "chance to shine" doesn't change a thing regarding his place both in the gang and in Buffy's story in general in the following season. The whole Yellow Crayon moment is mentioned only one time in S.07 (by Xander himself, of course), everyone else acts like nothing happened. It's like yeah, Willow had a mental breakdown several months ago and turned evil briefly, and was about to destroy the whole world, but we will never ever mention the reason it didn't happen. We will talk about Spike's sooooouul instead. Xander's fate is still mostly fixing the friggin' windows or babysitting Dawn. Let alone, Xander is totally absent in the season's seventh episode, which is crucial for every season's storyline.

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander has been spending the season bemoaning his uselessness

Really?  When?  He's been part of the Scoobs' lamenting that they had resurrected Buffy while she was still entombed (Bargaining, Part 2) and of their learning that Buffy had been in Heeeeeeeeeeeaven (Tabula Rasa).  He chose not to marry Anya because he was worried he was capable of being abusive as the fake visions had shown him, and he sat at home drinking himself silly out of self-pity once he found out that Spike was boning every heterosexual adult woman Xander knew, but I don't actually recall his despairing his ineffectuality until the first part of the finale.  (Which, of course, is only there to set up Xander's "redemption" on Kingman's Bluff.)

He's been excluded from the storylines and battered emotionally, but I don't actually think he's spent that much time wailing and rending his garments, IIRC.  But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:06 PM, Halting Hex said:

Really?  When?  He's been part of the Scoobs' lamenting that they had resurrected Buffy while she was still entombed (Bargaining, Part 2) and of their learning that Buffy had been in Heeeeeeeeeeeaven (Tabula Rasa).  He chose not to marry Anya because he was worried he was capable of being abusive as the fake visions had shown him, and he sat at home drinking himself silly out of self-pity once he found out that Spike was boning every heterosexual adult woman Xander knew, but I don't actually recall his despairing his ineffectuality until the first part of the finale.  (Which, of course, is only there to set up Xander's "redemption" on Kingman's Bluff.)

He's been excluded from the storylines and battered emotionally, but I don't actually think he's spent that much time wailing and rending his garments, IIRC.  But JMO.

You pretty much summed it up. 

[lembergwatcher]

Thoughts may vary in regard to Grave, but I don't think anyone would disagree that AH is particularly good/great at showing sadness, pain, anguish and despair. I mean, she's very natural in playing distressed Willow. I can never understand why those dumb Hollywood producers view her solely as a friggin' comedian because almost all her post-Buffy films & TV shows happen to be comedies. Even Nick Brendon's filmography seems to be more diverse in terms of genres. I don't think your post-Buffy career is a smashing success, Aly, I'm sorry.

She said in one of her interviews that she still remembers all the auditions she didn't get. Always wondered what roles exactly did pass her by...

[philautos]

The Yellow Crayon scene is one of my favorite scenes in the series. And I'm not sure it would have worked with another character. Buffy would try to fight Willow, and Willow has shown that she's psychologically able to fight Buffy. DarkWillow rejects Giles, so he wouldn't have the emotional power over her to do it. Anya and Willow were never especially close. Dawn would probably have run away -- and even if she hadn't, having the powerful adult beat up on the kid would have alienated the audience too much. 

But Xander is not only her longstanding best friend, he's a man. And the scene plays off traditional ideas of gender, which are often challenged in Buffy but also from time to time reaffirmed. It matters less that Willow hurts Xander than it would if he were a woman or a girl: a man is expected to be able to withstand anything a woman throws at him. And at the end, Willow is reduced to pounding on his chest -- an utterly futile gesture, as she certainly knows. Everyone knows BtVS is about strong women, but what gets rather less attention is that one of the things it repeatedly says is that strong women still need strong men -- and this, more than any other, is the scene where Xander gets to be that strong man. (Giles, Angel, Riley, and Spike routinely do.)

Edited February 13, 2019 by philautos

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, philautos said:

The Yellow Crayon scene is one of my favorite scenes in the series. And I'm not sure it would have worked with another character. Buffy would try to fight Willow, and Willow has shown that she's psychologically able to fight Buffy. DarkWillow rejects Giles, so he wouldn't have the emotional power over her to do it. Anya and Willow were never especially close. Dawn would probably have run away -- and even if she hadn't, having the powerful adult beat up on the kid would have alienated the audience too much. 

But Xander is not only her longstanding best friend, he's a man. And the scene plays off traditional ideas of gender, which are often challenged in Buffy but also from time to time reaffirmed. It matters less that Willow hurts Xander than it would if he were a woman or a girl: a man is expected to be able to withstand anything a woman throws at him. And at the end, Willow is reduced to pounding on his chest -- an utterly futile gesture, as she certainly knows. Everyone knows BtVS is about strong women, but what gets rather less attention is that one of the things it repeatedly says is that strong women still need strong men -- and this, more than any other, is the scene where Xander gets to be that strong man. (Giles, Angel, Riley, and Spike routinely do.)

And mine! I agree that Xander would be the one to do it. I think Dawn would be as brave as any but remember Darkwillow has already threatened Willow's beloved Dawn

[Halting Hex]

14 hours ago, philautos said:

It matters less that Willow hurts Xander than it would if he were a woman or a girl: a man is expected to be able to withstand anything a woman throws at him.

Sigh.  In the words of Alice Cooper's Michael Bruce*, "we still got a long way to go".

*-although singer Vince Furnier had adopted "Alice Cooper" as his stage name even back in the  early days, until the 1976 split, the name applied to the entire band, and many of the songs were written by guitarist Bruce and/or other members, rather than Furnier/Cooper. [/somewhat OT]

[philautos]

On 2/13/2019 at 2:07 PM, Halting Hex said:

Sigh.  In the words of Alice Cooper's Michael Bruce*, "we still got a long way to go".

Visualize the scene with the genders swapped. Would YOUR feelings be different?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:10 PM, philautos said:

Visualize the scene with the genders swapped. Would YOUR feelings be different?

Not in the least.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

XANDER: You're Willow.
WILLOW: Don't call me that.

And how exactly does Xander (who's known you as "Willow" for so long) has to call you then, oh Dark Mistress? Screwella de Will?..

[Halting Hex]

"Willon't", perhaps?

[Halting Hex]

So, I've been watching music reactors watch No Doubt's "Don't Speak" and be shocked that, yes, Gwen Stefani used to make music before she was a commodified clown.  And then I'm thinking about how the song is about the death of a relationship and "I'm losing my best friend" and I check out the Buffy/Willow videos set to it.  And of course, they include a fair few clips from these episodes.

And all I can think is that the "Willow" we're presented in these episodes, the broken "loser" who's been led astray by grief or dark magic or rooting for the Clippers or whatever…how the fuck did Buffy waste six goddamn years on her??  I mean it's one thing for Xander to realize he's a fuck-up, too, that he and Willow both don't really count, that they've got nothing to rely on but each other, blah, blah, blah.  It's an interpretation of the characters that I'd reject, but you could at least theoretically make it fly, because Xander's a Proletarian, and if you're elitist enough, you could construct that argument.

But, damn it…Buffy's supposed to be a Paladin.  And yes, her heroic nature has been taking hits since she snotted out her first selfish "You wouldn't understand" to Willow in Dead Man's Party, but she's better than that.  At least in theory.

And thus, the woman she chooses as her avatar of humanity, her connection to the world, her touchstone, I expect that woman (Willow) to be better, as well.  The idea that Buffy threw away her popularity, her "No Slaying!" vow, her very life because she thought that Willow was important to protect…and then Willow turns out to be this whiny addict crybaby, who goes around killing people at the drop of a hat (you lost Tara?  Well, boo-hoo! Welcome to the world! Things happen!), it just makes Buffy look like an idiot, too.

(And it makes us look like fools for following the series, but Joss already made his opinions plain on that front.  We're all Andrew, don't you know?  Emotionally stunted closet cases with no moral compass.  That trucker looks horny…hope y'all brought lube!  Sigh.)

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

how the fuck did Buffy waste six goddamn years on her??

We all make mistakes or do stupid things. Doesn't mean we (or Buffy for that matter) have to view everything that preceded Willow's fall from grace as "wasting six years on her".

Besides, Willow and Xander have more reasons to think it were they who wasted so many years on Buffy, not the other way around.

[Halting Hex]

24 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

We all make mistakes or do stupid things.

I would hope that none of us have become a psychotic murderer, though.  That's a line too far.  Giles lost Jenny, Buffy had to "kill" Angel, Xander heard Willow call Oz's name, Willow had Oz leave her crying, Buffy took a very long walk home from that helipad.  

Xander had to kill his best friend.  Xander had Buffy tell him she didn't "feel a thing" about him. Xander found Buffy face down in a pool of dirty water.  Xander had the only woman he'd ever had sex with try to choke him.  Xander (and Willow) buried Buffy.

Ain't nobody got skinned for that.

But wah-wah, Tara, I'm all griefy, black magic, boo-hoo.  Fuck you, "Willow".  There's still not the slightest excuse for this. And it makes Buffy look ridiculous for thinking you were better than this.

If her standards were this low, she might as well have jumped on Spike's dick back in S2.  Feh. (And JMO.)

[lembergwatcher]

10 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

But wah-wah, Tara, I'm all griefy, black magic, boo-hoo.

Remember, we're talking about Saint Tara here. Apparently she was soooo special Willow just couldn't grieve for her the way she grieved for ordinary humans like Jesse or Jenny.

Tara's fans would've been offended if her "martyrdom" didn't lead to some earth-shattering events. Thus the skinning and Proserpexa...