Past Seasons Discussion : Tales From The Crypt

[TigerLynx]

The award for best uncredited character who always delivered goes to the cell phone.  From the Elena/Damon/Rick conversation in Season One, to Elena/Rick/Damon conversation in Season Three when Damon is meeting Elijah, to the conversation with Rick/Elena with Damon and Stefan making snarky comments in the background, the cell phone was hilarious.  No matter what else got screwed up, these conversation were comedy gold.

With special mention to Cindy's recap from the site that no longer is, "Throw a teenage girl's cell phone out the window.  It is so over Stefan."

[HunterHunted]

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 6:38 AM, doram said:

Buffy side eyes this comment.

Buffy is a lot like Star Trek. Most of the world building was done on the show that no one talks about. The vast majority of the Buffy universe's world building was done on Angel just as the vast majority of Star Trek's world building was done on Deep Space 9.

One of my persistent problems with the Vampire Diaries is the need to escalate the big bads. I thought the university organization and prison world were great attempts at dialing some of the conflict back, but it felt like TPTB panicked at the last minute when they felt like the conflict wasn't grand enough. I hated the Travelers and the witchpires.

[miss-vanilla]

On 3/11/2017 at 7:01 PM, betweenthebanter said:

I don't remember what season or moment it was, but my love for Defan lessened when I realized that while Stefan loves Damon more than anybody, Damon would always love Elena more.

Great post, I agreed with most of it but I just wanted to talk more about this. This is where some fans part ways in how familial love and romantic love is viewed. Personally I liked that aspect of Damon, that he loved Elena probably more than he loved Stefan or at least equally as much as he loved Stefan. Family is family and they are yours and bonded to you by blood forever but the love of your life is a love built on something else. It's about a connection of the soul that has no roots in the familial bond but rooted in something more spiritual that lasts forever. I always root for those kind of relationships in fiction because in reality, as humans it's in our nature to search for our partner for life and in this particular show, an eternity.

I realised for sure in this episode why I was never completely on the Defan train. Throughout the series Damon has never been good enough for Stefan. It never seemed to matter what Damon did, how much Damon changed etc Stefan could never acknowledge those changes or show his love. He pushed Damon away (sometimes with good reasons) time and again and lorded over him with a sanctimony he hadn't earned. Then Damon died, and suddenly Stefan had this huge epiphany that without Damon he was just lost. Stefan could not survive the loss of Damon which is why he continued to save him but he didn't like him. Stefan only truly liked Damon when he was dead or offering himself to die, those are pretty high standards that Damon had to meet to be worthy of Stefan's love and so not true in the reverse. Damon loved Stefan unconditionally and accepted him, liked him and loved him good or bad.

The fact that Damon had to choose to die made him the big brother that Stefan always wanted proved to me that Damon could never live and meet those high standards.  

For me Stefan was the obstacle to Defan because he never deemed Damon to be worthy of love without Elena showing him the way. Elena did not have to show Damon how to love Stefan.

 

16 hours ago, betweenthebanter said:

It was great that Damon was willing to do that for Stefan, but I can't give the writers credit because they were never going to let him do it.

It would have been repetitive if they had since he did actually do it a few episodes before and in S5.

 

14 hours ago, Katherine said:

For me, the difference between killing Damon or Stefan is that killing Stefan represents what this show has  mostly been about (the romance), while killing Damon represents what I wish this show could have been (and also what I think the writers are trying to convince us that it is).

I didn't see it this way. I saw Stefan's death as an act of redemption for what he did to Damon back in 1864 and for bringing literal hell on earth to Mystic Falls. The theme of the season has been redemption and Stefan has been looking for that his entire existence and he finally found a way to atone and find an inner peace. Damon found his in love, forgiveness and his human life. Stefan was driven by guilt and Damon was driven by love. 

[KatWay]

Quote

Throughout the series Damon has never been good enough for Stefan. It never seemed to matter what Damon did, how much Damon changed etc Stefan could never acknowledge those changes or show his love. He pushed Damon away (sometimes with good reasons) time and again and lorded over him with a sanctimony he hadn't earned. Then Damon died, and suddenly Stefan had this huge epiphany that without Damon he was just lost. Stefan could not survive the loss of Damon which is why he continued to save him but he didn't like him. Stefan only truly liked Damon when he was dead or offering himself to die, those are pretty high standards that Damon had to meet to be worthy of Stefan's love and so not true in the reverse. Damon loved Stefan unconditionally and accepted him, liked him and loved him good or bad.

I don't agree with this interpretation at all, to be honest. Stefan has always consistently shown that he would choose Damon over anyone else, that above all it's Damon he can't live without and he sacrificed basically everything for that, including his relationship with Elena and the lives of innocent people. Damon being willing to sacrifice himself wasn't the thing that "pushed" him into finally accepting his brother, Stefan sacrificed himself for Damon looooong before that. The S2 finale remains one of the best ones this show has done. He was such a push over for Damon he even said he was happy for him when Damon finally succeeded in getting his girlfriend. Meanwhile Damon's main motivation for a long while was his obsession with whatever girl he was chasing and/or hatred of someone who he felt had wronged him. Damon only loved Stefan unconditionally when Stefan didn't have what he wanted anymore. Before that he was trying to undermine him as often as he tried to help him.

[Aeryn13]

I`m somewhere in the middle. I think Stefan absolutely did love Damon more than any of his romantic interests. Elena figured it out. Caroline figured it out. The only one who probably never really figured it out was Damon himself. Even when Stefan`s humanity was off, all you had to do was threaten Damon and it kinda came back on.  

However as much as he loved him, Stefan also used Damon as a meassuring stick for his own issues. Over the course of the show, Stefan always had trouble integrating the parts of himself. Sure, "ripping" might be a compulsion (heh), brought on by uncontrollable bloodlust. But what was that in the 20s flashback when he compelled a guy to drink his wife`s blood? That had nothing to do with being a Ripper. It was a vampire`s dark side going free. Yes, Stefan had a dark side. Everyone on the show had one, even Matt Donovan.

But Stefan hated that notion because in his mind it was all meshed up with ripperdom so everything he did with his switch off was "the other guy". And the real Stefan was the good, guilt-ridden guy who wanted to be better. And Damon being the "bad" brother allowed him hold onto that concept even more. Yes, he didn`t want Damon to run around and kill people all over the place but looking down on Damon allowed him to at least live with himself.

In the same way Damon had "I`m never number one" issues with Stefan because everyone always seemed to prefer Stefan, at least the lady loves. Of course that only led Damon to acting in ways that made really sure he`d go last because of his behaviour. That wasn`t Stefan`s fault. Or Elena`s. Or anyone else. Damon was responsible for his own actions. He just impulsively sabotaged himself all over the place.

Some of the most interesting ironies with the brothers were IMO how Stefan wasn`t an impulsive guy at all but couldn`t control his bloodlust. Meanwhile Damon who couldn`t control himself seemed to really have no problem with it. Like, it was the one thing he had a really good handle on.

And of course the inferiority issues against Stefan. Everyone started out liking Stefan better (because Stefan acted like a nicer person for the most part) whereas Stefan himself loved Damon more than anyone else. 

[Cocogurl]

21 minutes ago, KatWay said:

I don't agree with this interpretation at all, to be honest. Stefan has always consistently shown that he would choose Damon over anyone else, that above all it's Damon he can't live without and he sacrificed basically everything for that, including his relationship with Elena and the lives of innocent people. Damon being willing to sacrifice himself wasn't the thing that "pushed" him into finally accepting his brother, Stefan sacrificed himself for Damon looooong before that. The S2 finale remains one of the best ones this show has done. He was such a push over for Damon he even said he was happy for him when Damon finally succeeded in getting his girlfriend. Meanwhile Damon's main motivation for a long while was his obsession with whatever girl he was chasing and/or hatred of someone who he felt had wronged him. Damon only loved Stefan unconditionally when Stefan didn't have what he wanted anymore. Before that he was trying to undermine him as often as he tried to help him.

I agree with this completely, that's why I've never been able to believe when the writers try to tell the audience that Defan was the real love story of the show when so often it's always seemed more like the love stories of the show were Damon and Elena, and Stefan's love for Damon.

[miss-vanilla]

51 minutes ago, KatWay said:

I don't agree with this interpretation at all, to be honest. Stefan has always consistently shown that he would choose Damon over anyone else, that above all it's Damon he can't live without and he sacrificed basically everything for that, including his relationship with Elena and the lives of innocent people. Damon being willing to sacrifice himself wasn't the thing that "pushed" him into finally accepting his brother, Stefan sacrificed himself for Damon looooong before that.

Yes Stefan consistently did all that, that wasn't my point. He did that because Damon was his brother above all but he still hated him. He couldn't love him or accept him until he felt the loss of him. Losing Damon terrified him more than loving him ever did. Stefan may have consistently put Damon first but he always did it with a caveat of but I hate you for it. THAT was the barrier between them IMO because who does that?

 

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m somewhere in the middle. I think Stefan absolutely did love Damon more than any of his romantic interests. Elena figured it out. Caroline figured it out. The only one who probably never really figured it out was Damon himself. Even when Stefan`s humanity was off, all you had to do was threaten Damon and it kinda came back on.  

Yep, but he never made Damon feel worthy of it. Stefan admitted to Caroline that even he didn't feel Damon was worthy love until Elena showed him that he was. Without her around in S7 Stefan regressed back into old habits and spent the entire season blaming and telling Damon how much of an awful brother he was. He went as far as to tell Damon that he learned (via the phoenix stone) that he couldn't be happy while Damon was in his life because he is a burden or cross he has to bear (Stefan had amnesia about S6) He put all that weight on Damon's shoulders then was angry when Damon put himself in a coffin. Like I said above, Damon could never live up to Stefan's high expectations or ever changing morality because  even in  this season when Stefan was in full humanity-off ripper mode, Damon was not the brother he wanted because he wasn't bad enough. Sheesh!.  

Edited March 12, 2017 by miss-vanilla

[TigerLynx]

28 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

Damon was not the brother he wanted because he wasn't bad enough. Sheesh!.  

I have to admit this was something that amused me about Damon and Stefan.  In Season One, when Stefan started drinking human blood, Damon told Elena normally he would be overjoyed, but Stefan had spent years denying his vampire nature, and now was really not a good time for Damon to have to worry about Stefan snapping.  In Season Three, Damon told Rick he was worried about Stefan's switch being on dimmer because he didn't know who Stefan might kill.  Alaric, "Since when did you care about people dying?"  Damon, "It's a short list."

One thing the writers did get right was Damon and Stefan arguing about who should die.  I'm surprised Katherine didn't say, "What the hell did I ever see in either of you.  How about you two die, and I get to live."

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

Yes Stefan consistently did all that, that wasn't my point. He did that because Damon was his brother above all but he still hated him. He couldn't love him or accept him until he felt the loss of him. Losing Damon terrified him more than loving him ever did. Stefan may have consistently put Damon first but he always did it with a caveat of but I hate you for it. THAT was the barrier between them IMO because who does that?

True to an extent; the relationship between these brothers has always been a complicated one. There's always been a barrier of them hating each other at various points, but I do think their genuine love for each other kept bringing them back together (and yes, even when Stefan has said that he hated Damon, I don't believe that it's always the case). Sure, they could go years without communication. We know that there's been at least a decade where they hadn't seen each other, and obviously there's been a much longer gap pre-series. We know now from season 8 that Damon's always blamed Stefan for him becoming a vampire (set aside the fact that it was Damon who wanted to become a vampire with Katherine, didn't go along with any compulsion because he didn't need it, and genuinely enjoyed being a vampire more than Stefan ever did; now it's canon that it's all Stefan's fault). We know that there has been a lot of bad blood between the two and both are equally to blame for it.

I think the point here is that both brothers have treated each other badly yet both love each other at the end of it all, despite what they say to each other. Stefan has high expectations, absolutely. Sometimes, that's one of Stefan's worst traits. But Damon's worst trait is obsession. He was obsessed with Katherine, he was obsessed with vampirism, and then he was obsessed with Elena. And, many times, it has clouded his judgment when it comes to his brother. He managed to hurt his brother many times over the course of the series, much like Stefan was very self righteous and never could fully trust his brother. So it goes both ways. 

[HunterHunted]

@doram I completely agree that TVD had crap inconsistent world building. My point was just that Angel did the deeper world building between it and Buffy. Even from its initial episodes, Angel basically had to come up with deeper explanations and understanding of demons because Angel had a half demon partner. So it really had to discard Buffy's slightly more simplistic view of demons as evil. Angel had a soul, Spike was chipped, Anya was an ex-demon, but on Angel demons could be benign or even good. That's a concept that they had from season 1. Angel also had to do a bit of an exploration of The Powers That Be, various dimensions, various demons, and how the first vampires were made. Buffy would later import those concepts over with Ben and Glory, Clem, and the final battle over the Hellmouth on season 7.

The Vampire Diaries had a world that changed rapidly to accommodate the plot, but it's honestly not the worst show to do this. Grimm is much much worse.

[Chaos Theory]

I watched this show on and off for years and always seemed to get annoyed by the love triangle of doom.  I honestly never understood how two vampires around since the civil war could fall in love with an insepid girl like Elena.  I honestly found both Bonnie (who could be excessively self righteous  but still interesting) and Caroline far more interesting.  Hell I would have so been interested in a story built around Caroline and her family.  Think about it a seventeen year old girl turned into a vampire partly by accident party by circumstance and then discovers her family has a long history of being vampire hunters.   Plus I always did love the dynamic between Liz and Caroline and Liz and Damon.    Honestly I think the only two characters I actively hated were Elena and Stefan.  I know I know unpopular opinion.    Which is probably why I stopped watching the show for a long time but I did catch the finale and did a bit of a run through on Netflix recently.  Still all the things I like (Caroline is the best.  Bonnie is self righteous but not in a bad way)  and all the things I hate (Everybody loves Elena and will just die for her and I just don't get it).   

At least with Buffy I got why people liked and loved each other.  Even when things went horribly horribly wrong.  Plus the world building was consistent and didn't change on a whim.  Hey lets make so and so human just because so and so can't love them if they aren't.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

@Chaos Theory, I would love to hear more about why you hate Stefan! I agree completely about loving Liz and the relationships that Caroline and Damon both had with her. And even as someone who likes eraly Elena, I agree also about Caroline being a more compelling character. 

[Chaos Theory]

Quote

 @CHAOS THEORY, I would love to hear more about why you hate Stefan! I agree completely about loving Liz and the relationships that Caroline and Damon both had with her. And even as someone who likes eraly Elena, I agree also about Caroline being a more compelling character. 

 

Maybe hate is the wrong word.  I just found Stefan boring.    The same way I found Angel on BTVS slayer boring.  I was never a Butty/Angel shipper but I was a Buffy/Angeles shipper if that makes any sense.  Stefan was interesting when he was Ripper Stefan and when he had amnesia that one time in Season 5.  Otherwise he was too puppy dog following Elena around like he was her pet for me.      Honestly the whole Stefan/Elena destiny thing made me gag  I was actually happy the show did a 180 on that.  

Edited March 17, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[dreamcatcher]

On 17/3/2017 at 1:34 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I watched this show on and off for years and always seemed to get annoyed by the love triangle of doom.  I honestly never understood how two vampires around since the civil war could fall in love with an insepid girl like Elena.  I honestly found both Bonnie (who could be excessively self righteous  but still interesting) and Caroline far more interesting.  Hell I would have so been interested in a story built around Caroline and her family.  Think about it a seventeen year old girl turned into a vampire partly by accident party by circumstance and then discovers her family has a long history of being vampire hunters.   Plus I always did love the dynamic between Liz and Caroline and Liz and Damon.    Honestly I think the only two characters I actively hated were Elena and Stefan.  I know I know unpopular opinion.    Which is probably why I stopped watching the show for a long time but I did catch the finale and did a bit of a run through on Netflix recently.  Still all the things I like (Caroline is the best.  Bonnie is self righteous but not in a bad way)  and all the things I hate (Everybody loves Elena and will just die for her and I just don't get it).   

At least with Buffy I got why people liked and loved each other.  Even when things went horribly horribly wrong.  Plus the world building was consistent and didn't change on a whim.  Hey lets make so and so human just because so and so can't love them if they aren't.  

I think hating Elena is quite popular and I kinda agree with that. I actually think Elena was a poorly developed character, because she had her moments where you could see that she is fun and blah blah blah. But most of the time it was just all the characters stating how perfect Elena is, while all we could see was a very boring, self-righteous and damsel in distress kind of character. I could see everyone falling for Katherine because she was interesting and she knew how to play them. With Elena, it just doesn't make sense. Caroline was right in season 1 that everybody seemed to choose Elena for some reason. I think that's why in most shows (and book series) the female lead is always so much hated, because for some reason all the other characters love them and they are never interesting in any way.

Aaand I guess another unpopular opinion: I have to admit first that I did like Stelena as a pairing only because what we saw of their relationship onscreen was really cute and nice. BUT, I don't understand how people can say that Damon only went after Elena because of Katherine etc. The thing is that Damon didn't fall in love with Elena immediately, it was after he got to know her and get past her appearance. While Stefan came back only for her and yeah ok he made sure that she wasn't Katherine, but he fell in love with her immediately and he specifically went to school to meet her. So that was way creepier, which is why I never was a fan of them 100%. 

Aaand (no2), I think you are right to put Elena and Stefan in the same category. While Stefan was a more complex character, in the beginning it was sooo annoying that both Katherine and Elena were all over him-especially Katherine, as Damon as a human was supposed to be a good guy so she didn't even have Elena's excuse. I get that they had to pick one brother etc, but they made a point of saying that Stefan was way better than Damon as a choice and we couldn't even see why,

Edited March 18, 2017 by dreamcatcher

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Doesn't Damon basically, literally jump from Katherine to Elena in the space of a few scenes because Katherine rejected him?

I don`t think he did. He was obsessed with Katherine for a long time and at the beginning of the show, that hadn`t changed. But IMO it was pretty obvious that he fell for Elena over the course of the first Season, before Katherine truly came back. Isobel even commented on it.

What happened with Katherine early in Season 2 was a really sad attempt on his part to talk himself back into Katherine when he didn`t even really want her anymore. He wanted Elena. Then even Katherine rejected him and Elena did as well, basically for the same reason, and he snapped. Which I`m not blaming either of the two women for, it was Damon`s impulsiveness and lack of control.

But to me Damon falling out of love with Katherine - or rather his obssession with her since he hadn`t actually interacted with her in over a century - and falling for Elena made sense. Time-wise in the show, it was basically a more condensed version of Stefan falling for Caroline.     

[dreamcatcher]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Isn't stating that "he made sure she wasn't Katherine" and "he fell in love with her immediately" a contradiction?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Stefan met Elena for the first time when her parents' car went into the water, and her dying father made him save her. He was shocked at the resemblance to Katherine, imagined/suspected that she was Katherine up to no good, and he hung around to know if she wasn't Katherine. The more he learnt of her, the more he realized that she wasn't Katherine, and he started seeing her as her own person, and understanding that she was a wonderful girl with a recent tragedy. He started school in the summer to meet her in person, and the story goes on from there.

Meanwhile Damon...

Doesn't Damon basically, literally jump from Katherine to Elena in the space of a few scenes because Katherine rejected him? Considering how non-Elena Elena becomes once she gets together with Damon, the relationship always smacked of Damon finally getting a Petrova doppelganger that doesn't reject him. 

.

It's important to note that Stefan and Damon had very different relationships with Katherine. Damon was Katherine's human boyfriend. He knew she was a vampire and he embraced it. He helped her lure humans to kill; he made out with her with blood on her face. He was preparing to be a vampire for eternity with her.

Stefan, was Katherine's victim. He was horrified when he discovered she was a vampire, and she compelled away his free will. She fed from him, raped him, and was preparing him to be killed and turned into something he never consented to. It was after his death, during transition that he realized the extent to which Katherine had abused him. 

With that context, it's easier to see that the two brothers would have very different reactions when they meet a woman that looked like Katherine Pierce. 

I'm not anti-stelena so I don't really think that Stefan was a creeper who didn't really love Elena. I'm just commenting on the fact that people are still saying that Damon just transferred his obsession from one petrova to the other, but Stefan's decision to go for Elena was also shady. Well not shady, I just can't find the correct word. Yes he did stay around to keep an eye on her to make sure it's not Katherine (even though when he saved her I think it was obvious to him that it's a human). And I get that by watching her he would see what kind of person she was etc (again though, he only watched her while she was grieving her family so it's not like he would really get to know Elena, the fun-loving girl she used to be or any part of her other than the grieving teenager), but still, he watched from afar and then came back officially specifically to meet with her. It's kinda creepy as a premise, but I guess all vampire stories have that element. Again, I'm not saying that Stefan was a bad person and honestly I would be equally happy with a Stelena or a Delena ending, because I only want to see interesting stories that make sense.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think he did. He was obsessed with Katherine for a long time and at the beginning of the show, that hadn`t changed. But IMO it was pretty obvious that he fell for Elena over the course of the first Season, before Katherine truly came back. Isobel even commented on it.

What happened with Katherine early in Season 2 was a really sad attempt on his part to talk himself back into Katherine when he didn`t even really want her anymore. He wanted Elena. Then even Katherine rejected him and Elena did as well, basically for the same reason, and he snapped. Which I`m not blaming either of the two women for, it was Damon`s impulsiveness and lack of control.

But to me Damon falling out of love with Katherine - or rather his obssession with her since he hadn`t actually interacted with her in over a century - and falling for Elena made sense. Time-wise in the show, it was basically a more condensed version of Stefan falling for Caroline.     

I agree with you. The tvd writers/producers imo have a problem with showing some things in their writing, but I think they did a good job with showing how Damon's feelings evolved. Ok in the latter seasons all the characters had some issues in their development, so I'm just focusing in the first few seasons. I agree that over season 1, Damon didn't really understand that he was falling in love with Elena. He was messing with her in the very beginning only to mess with Stefan, but then they became friends and Damon was kinda moved from the fact that finally somebody cared about him-even though he was a jerk. I don't think this is an excuse, but they made it pretty obvious that Damon always felt inferior to Stefan and that nobody cared about him-not his family, not Katherine, not even Stefan at the beginning. So he started acting out in a sense because keeping people away is easier than getting hurt-and he was right about this because he did open himself up to Katherine and then to Elena and they both rejected him. So yeah it took him some time to accept his feelings for her.

Anyway, I liked the fact that Damon had that backstory and that's why he turned out to be the "bad guy". I also liked Stefan's backstory as a ripper, the guilt he was feeling all along etc. I don't like the stereotypical bad guy, I'm bored with one dimensional good guys. Neither brother was completely innocent or 100%  of an angel, and that's why I loved those characters.

Which again ties back to the Elena argument. I loved episodes like the one in season one with the roadtrip Elena and Damon took, where Elena got drunk and we saw another side of her. I loved the episode with the carnival because we got to see Elena as a normal teenager in love. I just think that in many cases they just had Elena there, being nice and everything, without really showing character. I don't know if that really makes sense... It's hard to explain I guess :P

[Aeryn13]

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He was messing with her in the very beginning only to mess with Stefan, but then they became friends and Damon was kinda moved from the fact that finally somebody cared about him-even though he was a jerk. 

Yes, I think Elena surprised him. I`ve been doing a lot nostalgia rewatching of Season 1 and it was back when Damon was still the official villain, maybe ep 2 or 3. He used Caroline to get himself invited into Elena`s house and they are doing the dishes and talking about Katherine. Elena deduces from the way he talks that both of the brothers had a thing with Katherine. The entire scene Damon is being (low-key) manipulative but then Elena says sorry and that he lost Katherine, too. He is clearly surprised and even touched. And that is the first genuine reaction he has towards her. 

Then Vicky dies and Elena is tearfully telling Stefan her brother is a mess and begs him to help to which Stefan says he can`t work the compulsion right, courtesy of his diet. Then suddenly Damon shows up and agrees to do it. Why? It`s clearly not any scheme in that moment. In the scene before Elena slapped him and told him that the people he kills matter. Must have taken something of it to heart.

There were little moments like that peppered all over the Season. Of course the roadtrip and Miss Mystic Falls ep were bigger on showcasing him developing feelings for her and seeing her as more of someone to just play around with.  

The writers sort of repeated that later with Klaroline. Klaus makes Tyler bite Caroline, putting her life in danger, then shows up to heal her later on. But the acts itself is a business arrangement. Only in the scene when he heals her, when they actually talk, you see him softening towards her and really taking note of her. And from then on that continues.     

[KatWay]

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I don't think this is an excuse, but they made it pretty obvious that Damon always felt inferior to Stefan and that nobody cared about him-not his family, not Katherine, not even Stefan at the beginning. So he started acting out in a sense because keeping people away is easier than getting hurt-and he was right about this because he did open himself up to Katherine and then to Elena and they both rejected him. So yeah it took him some time to accept his feelings for her.

Stefan in the flashbacks seemed to adore his older brother from what I remember. That just didn't count for Damon, apparently.

And while Damon clearly develops a liking for Elena in S1, he's still all about Katherine, all he wants is to get Katherine back. The reason why his obsession switching from one Petrova doppelganger to the other is shadier than Stefan's is because Stefan didn't spend a century waiting to get Katherine back. Stefan was well over Katherine when he met Elena & just needed to make sure she wasn't Kat trying to do some evil, while Damon was still pining for Katherine all the way through S1.

[dreamcatcher]

7 minutes ago, KatWay said:

Stefan in the flashbacks seemed to adore his older brother from what I remember. That just didn't count for Damon, apparently.

And while Damon clearly develops a liking for Elena in S1, he's still all about Katherine, all he wants is to get Katherine back. The reason why his obsession switching from one Petrova doppelganger to the other is shadier than Stefan's is because Stefan didn't spend a century waiting to get Katherine back. Stefan was well over Katherine when he met Elena & just needed to make sure she wasn't Kat trying to do some evil, while Damon was still pining for Katherine all the way through S1.

I agree that Stefan was over Katherine, but I don't think that makes Damon's feelings shadier. Stefan went in wanting to get to know her, in a sense almost wanting to feel something for her even out of curiosity. With Damon it just happened. And even if that was shown later in the series (meaning that they came up with this to serve their story), Damon also saw Elena while he was still looking for Katherine, he realized they are different people and he let her go. So Stefan could have done the same, especially since he is so self aware and he should have thought about the fact that doppelganger or not, he was going to mess with a human's life-one who already has a lot to deal with.

However, I don't really think that there is a need to pick "sides". Both brothers had their issues and well the whole salvatores-elena triangle was weird to begin with. I did like how both relationships evolved, but the story had to start somewhere and there's no way to introduce vampires in a story without making their motives a bit shady or creepy anyway.

As for Defan's relationship, I don't think I can even go there. I'm not sure what they were doing, because they were just going back and forth. Damon spent 145 years hating his brother for no actual reason. I mean he said that it was because he made him turn and then because Katherine changed him too... But he was aware as a human that they were after the same girl and he didn't seem to mind, and it's not like Katherine actually turned them, it was an accident. So them hating each other for 145 years doesn't make sense to begin with. Then in season 1 they said that they haven't seen each other in 15 years, which they later forget. And then they make up pretty easily, yet still hate on each other whenever it's convenient for the story... Aaaand then again we learn that Stefan was always the golden boy, meaning that Damon had his issues so we should feel a bit sorry about him. But then Stefan loooves him so Damon is an insecure asshole. But in the very end whatever, none of it matters, they found peach in each other. I mean yeah ok I get it, you need family drama. The originals also have their own issues but it seemed more consistent (at least on tvd, I refuse to watch TO so I don't know what's going on there).

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Damon spent 145 years hating his brother for no actual reason.

Did he really? In the Pilot we got the "I promised you an eternity of misery" line and then the first actual flashbacks of their vampire lifes after Damon said that came in and... I was terribly confused. After they first turned Stefan acted out and Damon tried to keep him in check till eventually he left, but not before asking Lexi to help Stefan.

Then they met again in 1912? and while things are awkward and Damon is stand-offish, he is not openly hostile. He gets Stefan to drink human blood and it shown that his interest lies in reconnecting somewhat but unfortunately, Stefan`s ripperdom is rewakaned.

Then we get another flashback in New Orleans where Damon tries to reconnect and only lets Stefan go because Lexi tells him that he is bad for his brother. So he lets him go out of love basically.

Damon gets captured by the Augustine society and holds out for some hope that Stefan will find him but is crushed that his brother didn`t even notice he was gone. Now their interaction in the 70s was actually bad but mostly because Damon impulsively acted out not because he was scheming to make Stefan miserable.

So when the hell did the "eternity of misery" actually start? Going by what I saw in the show, it started in the Pilot, a good 150 years after their turning. Because that seemed to be the only time Damon really put some conscious effort into it. They put that line in the Pilot and certainly their "reunion" there played out like it had been the truth but none of the flashbacks showed it. And they kinda made it obvious that they didn`t see each other really between the flashbacks they showed. 

[TigerLynx]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

So when the hell did the "eternity of misery" actually start?

Like so many other things on this show Damon/Stefan's backstory, relationship, and eternity of misery, is the victim of the writers not remembering or not caring about continuity.

Katherine screwed with both Damon and Stefan's minds, but in different ways.  Katherine compelled Stefan.  With Damon, Katherine knew he was in love with her, and enjoyed playing with him for her own amusement.  Damon told Stefan Katherine never compelled him, but one of the flashbacks did show Katherine compelling Damon.  That could be the writers once again ignoring continuity, or it could be Damon being so obsessed with Katherine, he didn't want to acknowledge the truth.

I started out liking Elena, and I never disliked her, but the writers completely dropped the ball on developing her.  To some extent that was true with all the characters.  However, I found it more noticeable with Elena because Katherine was so well defined.  I do think Nina Dobrev did an excellent job.  Katherine and Elena did seem like two completely different people.

[dreamcatcher]

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Did he really? In the Pilot we got the "I promised you an eternity of misery" line and then the first actual flashbacks of their vampire lifes after Damon said that came in and... I was terribly confused. After they first turned Stefan acted out and Damon tried to keep him in check till eventually he left, but not before asking Lexi to help Stefan.

Then they met again in 1912? and while things are awkward and Damon is stand-offish, he is not openly hostile. He gets Stefan to drink human blood and it shown that his interest lies in reconnecting somewhat but unfortunately, Stefan`s ripperdom is rewakaned.

Then we get another flashback in New Orleans where Damon tries to reconnect and only lets Stefan go because Lexi tells him that he is bad for his brother. So he lets him go out of love basically.

Damon gets captured by the Augustine society and holds out for some hope that Stefan will find him but is crushed that his brother didn`t even notice he was gone. Now their interaction in the 70s was actually bad but mostly because Damon impulsively acted out not because he was scheming to make Stefan miserable.

So when the hell did the "eternity of misery" actually start? Going by what I saw in the show, it started in the Pilot, a good 150 years after their turning. Because that seemed to be the only time Damon really put some conscious effort into it. They put that line in the Pilot and certainly their "reunion" there played out like it had been the truth but none of the flashbacks showed it. And they kinda made it obvious that they didn`t see each other really between the flashbacks they showed. 

That's why I'm so confused about their relationship and why exactly Damon was always the bad guy. I had forgotten about Lexi telling Damon to leave him alone because he's bad for Stefan and I was so so so confused because they never showed us why. I mean I guess when you are prone to turning into a ripper hanging around a guy who's openly drinking from the vein may be bad, but in the end it's exactly how Stefan learned to control his impulses. Obviously they had to change a few things after season 1, but in the beginning we were supposed to hate Damon for tormenting Stefan for over a century and yet, that never really happened. And I get Damon acting weird, but the forgiving, loving Stefan who feels sooo guilty over forcing him to drink would never end up hate him that much without a reason.

8 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I started out liking Elena, and I never disliked her, but the writers completely dropped the ball on developing her.  To some extent that was true with all the characters.  However, I found it more noticeable with Elena because Katherine was so well defined.  I do think Nina Dobrev did an excellent job.  Katherine and Elena did seem like two completely different people.

I think the mistake with Elena's character was that they developed her character only in relation to other characters and her relationships. Caroline for example changed so much over the seasons and even though it had everything to do with connecting with every other character in a real (as opposed to the more superficial connection she used to have with everyone) way. Bonnie is a huge chapter, but then again, we saw her develop through her own sense of power. Elena never got that kind of development and I think it's because they were focusing too much on Stelena vs Delena than Elena as a character. Katherine had so many layers and yes she was a bad person, but we know that she did everything she had to do in order to survive and not so much just because she was evil, that she could feel love, that losing her family affected her etc. And yes Katherine and Elena were totally like two different people and that can't be easy. Especially since she had to play Elena-acting-like-Katherine/Katherine-acting-like-Elena/Human!Katherine/Vampire!Elena and all these variations and some times she would have to switch back and forth throughout a single episode. Nina was definitely the star of the show for me, even though the whole cast was on point imo.

[Aeryn13]

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 I guess when you are prone to turning into a ripper hanging around a guy who's openly drinking from the vein may be bad

Yeah but instead Lexi sent him off to be an ambulance driver/EMT in the war. Because those guys never see blood. Urgh. That was so stupid. I got the atonement part of it but there had to have been better solutions.

It also bothered me how Lexi talked to Damon as if she really knew him. She had met him once before and, again, that was when he asked her to help his brother. What dastardly implications on his character that makes.

Of course then we saw her trying to switch Damon back on on behest of Stefan in the 70s and how that ended. Which explains her hatred of him in present time. He had her fooled back then. But the 70s flashbacks showed me that apparently Lexi applies the "be nice to your client" principle in terms of her switch-on-projects. Because when she worked on Damon, she suddenly told him he had a valid viewpoint compared to the 40s when she sponsored Stefan.  

Quote

And yes Katherine and Elena were totally like two different people and that can't be easy. Especially since she had to play Elena-acting-like-Katherine/Katherine-acting-like-Elena/Human!Katherine/Vampire!Elena and all these variations and some times she would have to switch back and forth throughout a single episode. Nina was definitely the star of the show for me, even though the whole cast was on point imo.

Nina switching between Elena and Katherine was always superb. They were truly two distinct characters. And I totally get why she was close to a breakdown during Season 2 because shooting basically two roles at the same time was exhausting but it made for some of the finest hours of TV. Hats off to her.  

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, dreamcatcher said:

even though the whole cast was on point imo.

I thought they had quite a few really good actors in the group.  I don't believe the show would have been as good without them because they all got some horrible writing on a regular basis and they had to rise above it in order to sell some completely idiotic SLs.

Nina was great as Elena and Katherine, but I thought the Katherine flashback episode (which showed how Katherine became a vampire) was outstanding.  Nina played Katherine as a human as somewhat different.  Katherine liked men a lot, even then, she just didn't want to die in Klaus' stupid sacrifice so he could be a werepire.  It added a whole new perspective on Katherine.  As far as Katherine ruining Rose and vampire's name I can't remember lives, and Klaus and Elijah's whining about how Katherine betrayed them, I was like, "Hello, you idiot vampires.  If the human girl who has never killed anyone, who has already had her child taken from her, does not want to die in your idiot ritual, she's not destroying your lives.  You were going to kill her."

I was disappointed Katherine was killed.  I wanted Katherine to waltz out of hell (having conned Cade into letting her be a vampire again, or immortal, etc.), tell everyone she didn't care what happened to any of them, she just wanted to be free, and then take off leaving Damon, Stefan, Bonnie, Caroline, Alaric, etc., to figure out how to close the hell dimension.

Edited March 19, 2017 by TigerLynx

[whateverhappened]

I'm almost done binge rewatching the series and have enjoyed reading this discussion so much! Most of you won't enjoy my contribution much in return, because I have opinions that few others share. :) 

I love Steroline. Some of that is probably just because Caroline and Stefan were always my two favorite characters. I'm also a fan of friends to lovers ships in general and when one partner is a high energy extrovert while the other is a more broody, cerebral introvert. The actual stories for Steroline were lacking, but not even atrocious writing could kill my love for them. 

Klaroline is my personal nightmare, definitely my least favorite ship of the series, and I am ignoring the last part of the finale where the writers hint they could eventually get together. If Caroline can't be with Stefan, I agree with the person who thought that seeing her independent and happy on her own would be a fitting and satisfying end for her character.

I wholeheartedly agree with whoever said that Caroline Forbes is not just my favorite TVD character but one of my favorite TV characters, period. For all this series did wrong (a lot!), I will always be grateful for them for giving us this layered, flawed, memorable female character who I love more than I should.  At first glance I have absolutely nothing in common with her: I couldn't care less about fashion and you can tell by looking at me, I don't like planning or even attending big, fancy social gatherings, and I'm a whole lot lazier and less ambitious. I relate to her anyway, though - the enthusiasm and passion for even the things and people she shouldn't feel it for, the insecurity and anxiety that comes off as impatience and even bitchiness, how she gets so hopeful and idealistic and then so disappointed, how she tries too hard and so often says or does the wrong thing but then keeps trying anyway, the way she's both selfish and focused on her own needs, goals and worries but also very loving and generous when it comes down to it. She's just so alive despite being a vampire and therefore technically dead. :) 

Elena is ...zzzz. Like others have said, she's so poorly developed. She's everything that week's plot needs her to be and nothing at all. I could write a thesis on Caroline, but it's hard to even describe Elena's core traits beyond the fact that she's mostly fairly nice and boringly perfect...? Bonnie has a unique connection to the earth and spirit world due to her witchery (I'm sorry, I know that's not a word but can't think of the right one!), and she's a nice contrast to Caroline in that she's more tough, self-righteous, levelheaded, cautious and guarded while also more naturally selfless and attuned to other people's needs. The final two seasons had a whole truckload of problems, but to me Elena's absence isn't one of them. I was more than fine with Caroline and Bonnie as the primary female characters. 

I prefer Stefan to Damon but Delena to Stelena. This opinion has no rational basis at all. I just find Delena a little more...interesting? Lively? Screwed up but in a way that works for me more than Stelena? Maybe as one of the relatively few who ships Steroline I just prefer Stefan to be free for Caroline!  

When you all were ranking your seasons it made my day to see the love for Season 6. It's my very favorite. I know it's not better than the first two seasons, but I just love it the most, probably because of my personal ship preferences and the fact that Kai is my favorite villain. 

I have an eternal soft spot for Matt. 

I'm probably the only viewer who never warmed up to Tyler. 

Finally, I will echo the people who said that this show has a lot wrong with it but has my heart anyway! I know I'll be rewatching it, discussing it with you all and maybe even writing fanfic for it even now that it's officially done. I'm so glad these threads are still here even now that the show isn't! 

Edited March 19, 2017 by whateverhappened

[miss-vanilla]

My take on the "eternity of misery" thing is that it didn't really exist or manifest until the 1994 flashback episode. As others have stated the previous flashbacks contradict that notion completely.

Damon switched off his humanity in 1958 post Augustine drama and we assume that he kept it off for decades since we see him reveling in his humanity off state in the 70's and Damon pretty much confirms this in conversation with Lexie even if he doesn't give her the exact reason. IMO, Damon seems to be pissed that Stefan sent Lexie to help him rather than come himself which must have stung a bit considering he had held out hope that Stefan would come and rescue him from Augustine and he didn't come through for him then either. In defense of Stefan, he believed that Damon abandoned him on a platform in 1942.

The next time we see the brothers it's 1994. Damon has headed back to MF to reconnect with Stefan. His humanity seems to be resurfacing somewhat and he seems genuine in his wish to reunite with his brother, however this is a vampire that has lived for decades as a vampire with no humanity who is still behaving like a vampire (albeit one on his best behaviour.) As far as Damon is concerned he is behaving but still acting true to his nature. He is feeding from the humans and using compulsion to erase their memories. Unfortunately for Damon, Stefan was having none of it since he was denying his nature completely and had zero tolerance for anything vampire related including Damon. Stefan snapped Damons neck, stole his daylight ring and dumped him in a shed then proceeded to outright reject all Damon's efforts to reconcile. Damon was genuinely hurt, he was rejected by his brother none too gently for being a vampire...the very thing Stefan made him become. In retaliation Damon killed everyone who was left in the house. Of course these actions caused Stefan to reject Damon even more and Damon could pretend that Stefan's hate was because he committed a heinous act and not because he was just Damon existing.

Of course none of what Damon did to those people is justified and Damon does not justify it. It's the opposite because this is one of the times when we get to see that Damon does genuinely feel guilt and remorse, when he has his humanity on anyway. I think any rising humanity within Damon was dialled right back down after this day and old resentments rekindled.

Damon was awful but Stefan was cruel too.

21 hours ago, KatWay said:

The reason why his obsession switching from one Petrova doppelganger to the other is shadier than Stefan's is because Stefan didn't spend a century waiting to get Katherine back. Stefan was well over Katherine when he met Elena & just needed to make sure she wasn't Kat trying to do some evil, while Damon was still pining for Katherine all the way through S1.

Stefan didn't know Katherine was still alive, Damon kept that secret to himself but Stefan still obsessed over Katherine. He kept her picture close and was shown looking at it rather wistfully in one of the early episodes. I think Stefan was in denial about his feelings for Katherine because despite her compulsions, she never compelled him to fall in love with her. He became obsessed with Elena because of her face. He didn't know her but he must have known she was human. He was obsessed with having to know her, he researched her life, he knew very personal things about her then contrived situations to get meet her in person. Why? because she looked like the person he fell in love with when he was 17 (an angel) and behaved like one...just like he thought Katherine was. He loved Katherine very deeply, enough to be with her knowing that he was hurting Damon and I believe his unresolved issues with her that manifested when he turned complicated his feelings for Elena.

In season 5 it is revealed that Stefan's PTSD was rooted in the loss of Elena to Damon. He then promptly slept with Katherine after realising this fact and although he said he couldn't forgive her or love her again (denial), he did exactly that when she was dying. Stefan got his closure with Katherine in her death arc especially since it was him who finally ended her in "Gone Girl" and interestingly enough, his interest in Elena romantically started to wane as well. It was as if his closure with Katherine afforded him the ability to move on from Elena too. 

In contrast, Damon met Elena in the road and instantly understood and recognised that this girl was not Katherine the minute she said "I'm Elena".  He was intrigued by her and a little amused and had she not been wearing Katherines' face, she probably would have ended up as his next meal. Once he was truly in love with Elena and had accepted that fact within himself, he never once wavered in response to Katherine despite her many attempts to seduce him. 

I agree with Aeryn13 that Damon's attempt to reconcile with Katherine in 2x01 was an act of desperation in trying to supress his growing feelings for Elena- his brothers' girl because despite his shenanigans in early S1 when he was essentially using Elena to wind up Stefan- his shenanigans came back to bite him hard because he fell in love with her in the process and she didn't want him and neither did Katherine- not outside of the bedroom anyway and that was no longer enough for Damon anymore. Damon did not transfer his love for Katherine to Elena because she rejected him because it was clear to me that he was already in love with Elena at that point and if anything his attempts to make something of it with Katherine was about him transferring his feelings the opposite way, which is why he stopped the hot makeout session with her to ask her for the truth. He wanted it to be real like it was with Elena because despite Elena denying her feelings for Damon, he was right, there WAS something real going on between them even if it wasn't love yet from her end, it was a bond and a connection that was growing everyday and it was real.

[dreamcatcher]

2 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Nina was great as Elena and Katherine, but I thought the Katherine flashback episode (which showed how Katherine became a vampire) was outstanding.  Nina played Katherine as a human as somewhat different.  Katherine liked men a lot, even then, she just didn't want to die in Klaus' stupid sacrifice so he could be a werepire.  It added a whole new perspective on Katherine.  As far as Katherine ruining Rose and vampire's name I can't remember lives, and Klaus and Elijah's whining about how Katherine betrayed them, I was like, "Hello, you idiot vampires.  If the human girl who has never killed anyone, who has already had her child taken from her, does not want to die in your idiot ritual, she's not destroying your lives.  You were going to kill her."

I think the scenes we got with the original human Katherine were amazing. They showed that she always believed in love and she wanted more. That's why I can't really hate her, because even though she was a villain, she never was bad just to be a bad person. She was looking after herself and considering that she was a teenager who got her baby taken away from her, had to move countries knowing that her family hates her, only to discover that the charming Lord who was courting her wanted to kill her, then to become a vampire with nobody there to help her out, to see her family slaughtered... Yeah I think she went through a lot and she never got the chance to actually live her life and feel love ever again. She was in love with Stefan but knew she couldn't have him and I'm sure that was hard too. 

1 hour ago, whateverhappened said:

I wholeheartedly agree with whoever said that Caroline Forbes is not just my favorite TVD character but one of my favorite TV characters, period. For all this series did wrong (a lot!), I will always be grateful for them for giving us this layered, flawed, memorable female character who I love more than I should.  At first glance I have absolutely nothing in common with her: I couldn't care less about fashion and you can tell by looking at me, I don't like planning or even attending big, fancy social gatherings, and I'm a whole lot lazier and less ambitious. I relate to her anyway, though - the enthusiasm and passion for even the things and people she shouldn't feel it for, the insecurity and anxiety that comes off as impatience and even bitchiness, how she gets so hopeful and idealistic and then so disappointed, how she tries too hard and so often says or does the wrong thing but then keeps trying anyway, the way she's both selfish and focused on her own needs, goals and worries but also very loving and generous when it comes down to it. She's just so alive despite being a vampire and therefore technically dead. :) 

Elena is ...zzzz. Like others have said, she's so poorly developed. She's everything that week's plot needs her to be and nothing at all. I could write a thesis on Caroline, but it's hard to even describe Elena's core traits beyond the fact that she's mostly fairly nice and boringly perfect...? Bonnie has a unique connection to the earth and spirit world due to her witchery (I'm sorry, I know that's not a word but can't think of the right one!), and she's a nice contrast to Caroline in that she's more tough, self-righteous, levelheaded, cautious and guarded while also more naturally selfless and attuned to other people's needs. The final two seasons had a whole truckload of problems, but to me Elena's absence isn't one of them. I was more than fine with Caroline and Bonnie as the primary female characters. 

Yeah Caroline is awesome because she's so complex. I liked her in S1 because she was more real compared to the stereotypical lead girl who is perfect and everybody loves her. She had her issues and she truly was the second choice. This is why I'm mad that she was the only one who didn't get a happy ending.

And as for Elena, now that I'm rewatching the show, I remembered why I didn't like it 100%. While she's portrayed as this amazing, caring girl, she knew Damon had feelings for her and she kept close to him. She even admitted that she was using her influence she knew she had over him. Yeah ok thanks to that Damon learned to behave, but it was not right and by acting like that, both brothers kept fighting each other. At least Katherine was pretty open about this. Not saying that Elena is a bitch and it's more of a case of bad writing, but it always bugged me.

51 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

Stefan didn't know Katherine was still alive, Damon kept that secret to himself but Stefan still obsessed over Katherine. He kept her picture close and was shown looking at it rather wistfully in one of the early episodes. I think Stefan was in denial about his feelings for Katherine because despite her compulsions, she never compelled him to fall in love with her. He became obsessed with Elena because of her face. He didn't know her but he must have known she was human. He was obsessed with having to know her, he researched her life, he knew very personal things about her then contrived situations to get meet her in person. Why? because she looked like the person he fell in love with when he was 17 (an angel) and behaved like one...just like he thought Katherine was. He loved Katherine very deeply, enough to be with her knowing that he was hurting Damon and I believe his unresolved issues with her that manifested when he turned complicated his feelings for Elena.

In season 5 it is revealed that Stefan's PTSD was rooted in the loss of Elena to Damon. He then promptly slept with Katherine after realising this fact and although he said he couldn't forgive her or love her again (denial), he did exactly that when she was dying. Stefan got his closure with Katherine in her death arc especially since it was him who finally ended her in "Gone Girl" and interestingly enough, his interest in Elena romantically started to wane as well. It was as if his closure with Katherine afforded him the ability to move on from Elena too. 

In contrast, Damon met Elena in the road and instantly understood and recognised that this girl was not Katherine the minute she said "I'm Elena".  He was intrigued by her and a little amused and had she not been wearing Katherines' face, she probably would have ended up as his next meal. Once he was truly in love with Elena and had accepted that fact within himself, he never once wavered in response to Katherine despite her many attempts to seduce him. 

I agree with Aeryn13 that Damon's attempt to reconcile with Katherine in 2x01 was an act of desperation in trying to supress his growing feelings for Elena- his brothers' girl because despite his shenanigans in early S1 when he was essentially using Elena to wind up Stefan- his shenanigans came back to bite him hard because he fell in love with her in the process and she didn't want him and neither did Katherine- not outside of the bedroom anyway and that was no longer enough for Damon anymore. Damon did not transfer his love for Katherine to Elena because she rejected him because it was clear to me that he was already in love with Elena at that point and if anything his attempts to make something of it with Katherine was about him transferring his feelings the opposite way, which is why he stopped the hot makeout session with her to ask her for the truth. He wanted it to be real like it was with Elena because despite Elena denying her feelings for Damon, he was right, there WAS something real going on between them even if it wasn't love yet from her end, it was a bond and a connection that was growing everyday and it was real.

Yeah I agree that Stefan was truly in love with Katherine. I get that she compelled him to not fear her true nature etc, but that doesn't mean that his feelings weren't real. He lost the power to make a conscious choice to stay with her, but he was in love with her. He kept brushing it off and yet, as you said, he kept the picture and he only stuck around Elena because of their connection. And Elena turned out to be everything he wanted Katherine to be or at least the "angel" Katherine acted like before he knew she was a vampire. I'm not going to say that Stefan didn't love Elena for real, but there was definitely a connection there. And I think the fact that he acted so indifferent towards Katherine while Damon still helped even though he was in love with Elena and felt betrayed by Katherine was that Damon faced his feelings for Katherine and Stefan...well he had some unresolved issues.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Damon switched off his humanity in 1958 post Augustine drama and we assume that he kept it off for decades since we see him reveling in his humanity off state in the 70's and Damon pretty much confirms this in conversation with Lexie even if he doesn't give her the exact reason.

I thought so, too, but the flashback to his first meeting with Elena in Season 3 always looked like a Damon who had his switch on. And then in Season 6 in the final episode with Liz, didn`t he mention something about laying down flowers on his mother`s grave when his emotions were on?

Obviously, he returned to Mystic Falls in Season 1 to finally free Katherine but the night he wanted to do it was a couple eps into the Season. So my headcanon is now that on the specific night when Elena and her parents drove off Wickery Bridge, Damon was in town to visit his mother`s grave and had his switch on. He decided to stay and get involved a bit and wait till the free-Katherine-moment arrived. And to accomplish all that, not get side-tracked or swayed or anything by reuniting with Stefan, he switched it off. Much like Stefan switched it off before going to work for Cade. That is, not switching your emotions off in a moment of utter turmoil but for a specific mission.

I`m fully aware that the real reason for such discrepancies is "the longer the show went on and the more backstory they did, the less it fit together" but I have to make some sense of it in my head. :)

They did the "they met first" flashback in the Season 3 Finale after a Season of flirting pretty heavily with the Delena-concept and it was supposed to come across as romantic so obviously it couldn`t be Pilot-Damon but even though early-Season 1-Damon could still be flirty and charming in a manipulative or careless way, there are worlds between that guy and the genuine-sounding "I want you to get everything you are looking for"-guy.

[KatWay]

With Damon the line between switch on and switch off was always a lot less clear cut than with most of the other characters we saw. Like, he was killing Whitmores (and other people) left and right even with the switch on, wasn't he. And was he actually switched off in S1? Cause he was carelessly killing but also had a ton of emotions, positive and negative. Elena with switch off was a robot who hated everybody, and Stefan was a psycho who hated everyone but Damon.

The S3 finale flashback was just meant to appease the Delena shippers since the season ended on a Stelena note. It never made a lot of sense tbh. Damon met Katherine's human doppelganger and went...okay,guess I won't eat you then, have a good life, bye.

One of the parts where this show falls really flat in comparison to Buffy is how Buffy's continuous flashbacks built on each other and deepened our understanding of the past every time, while TVD's flashbacks pretty much just retconned stuff every time a new one came up. Or maybe some of it was even planned beforehand but the execution was so poor it always felt like it made no sense.

Quote

I think the fact that he acted so indifferent towards Katherine while Damon still helped even though he was in love with Elena and felt betrayed by Katherine was that Damon faced his feelings for Katherine and Stefan...well he had some unresolved issues.

I always felt the opposite, to be honest. Damon's intense hatred of Katherine after discovering her betrayal and her rejection seemed like he never got over what she did to him. Meanwhile Stefan was mostly indifferent to her except for the threat she posed and when she turned human he tried to see her as the person she could have been and forgave her.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, KatWay said:

With Damon the line between switch on and switch off was always a lot less clear cut than with most of the other characters we saw. Like, he was killing Whitmores (and other people) left and right even with the switch on, wasn't he. And was he actually switched off in S1? Cause he was carelessly killing but also had a ton of emotions, positive and negative. Elena with switch off was a robot who hated everybody, and Stefan was a psycho who hated everyone but Damon.

This is the biggest pet peeve I have with the show about the switch.  It made sense in the beginning that a vampire would murder for the hell of it with the switch off because it was supposed to turn off their humanity.  Then, it was described as turning off your emotions (when Elena was turned off (I wanted to start a drinking game for every time she uttered the word "emotions", but I'd be dead).  But hatred is an emotion!  Hatred with humanity turned off...logical.  Hatred with emotions turned off...no sense.

[Aeryn13]

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With Damon the line between switch on and switch off was always a lot less clear cut than with most of the other characters we saw. Like, he was killing Whitmores (and other people) left and right even with the switch on, wasn't he. And was he actually switched off in S1? Cause he was carelessly killing but also had a ton of emotions, positive and negative. Elena with switch off was a robot who hated everybody, and Stefan was a psycho who hated everyone but Damon.

Yes, he was switched off. As he later tells Elena in the ep where they are travelling to New York, it came back on when he killed Lexi. Which, I wouldn`t have figured but okay.

And in terms of feelings, every vampire always had feelings even switched off. They showed them all over the place because the switch was such a convenient plot device for the writers that doesn`t stand up to any logic whatsoever.

What makes Damon seem different is IMO that he adopts a very vampire philosophy about killing. As he once said everyone is someone`s mother/father/brother`. But if they don`t mean anything to him personally, they are prey to his predator. Stefan, Elena or Caroline need the switch off to act like this. That is also why their humanity-free "wild side" looks so much wilder in comparism. 

Damon is a lot closer like the Originals are presented actually. Even Elijah can be as noble as he wants but he will kill without hestitation or remorse. Not for fun but certainly far more easily than the TVD "good" vamps.   

What Damon needs the switch for is pretty much like the flashback with Enzo showed. When it IS someone close to him. Though as Damon also seemed to superceed Stefan`s off-switch, I firmly believe Elena and Stefan both superceeded Damon`s. Like, the Enzo-solution wouldn`t have worked in their cases. He sure did pine for Katherine switch on or off. Maybe he didn`t feel the pain as badly.

And Katherine IMO with her love/obsession for Stefan was switched off. Or even, as Rose once said, that stuff doesn`t work anymore after a couple hundred years. So Katherine, like Damon, had also fully adopted the me = vampire, you = food and/or plaything philosophy. 

[dreamcatcher]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They did the "they met first" flashback in the Season 3 Finale after a Season of flirting pretty heavily with the Delena-concept and it was supposed to come across as romantic so obviously it couldn`t be Pilot-Damon but even though early-Season 1-Damon could still be flirty and charming in a manipulative or careless way, there are worlds between that guy and the genuine-sounding "I want you to get everything you are looking for"-guy.

While I loved that scene, it was definitely them using the current Damon-persona while showing us a flashback. You can't go from the "I want you to get everything you are looking for"-guy to the "I hope Elena dies" to the one who genuinely cares about her. I liked both Delena and Stelena, but I have to say that I liked Delena more thanks to S1-3 when the writers only had to show us some unresolved tension. I was waiting for Delena to happen because I had high hopes thanks to these seasons, but I don't think they handled it that well.

2 hours ago, KatWay said:

The S3 finale flashback was just meant to appease the Delena shippers since the season ended on a Stelena note. It never made a lot of sense tbh. Damon met Katherine's human doppelganger and went...okay,guess I won't eat you then, have a good life, bye.

That's also something I don't get. Stefan was supposed to be completely over Katherine and yet he wanted to make sure it's not her and then he was trying to find why Elena looked like her-to the point where he discovered she's adopted and they actually are related. And then there's guy who spend 145 years obsessed with Katherine, who found somebody who at the very least was related to Katherine and he didn't even care?

[Aeryn13]

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While I loved that scene, it was definitely them using the current Damon-persona while showing us a flashback. You can't go from the "I want you to get everything you are looking for"-guy to the "I hope Elena dies" to the one who genuinely cares about her.

If you juxtapose the flashback scene with, say, the one in Season 1 where Damon taunts Stefan about having been invited into Elena`s home and coming back to do with her as he pleases, it is actually hilarious. Because what is he gonna do? Make more declarations about wishing her happiness? Actually read to her from a romance novel? Oooooh, scary.  

[dreamcatcher]

Well I guess it is kinda funny, but still, s1 Damon (and everyone else's reaction to him) doesn't make sense. But I'm willing to let that go because I loved S1 Damon as the show's villain. 

[miss-vanilla]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Because what is he gonna do? Make more declarations about wishing her happiness? Actually read to her from a romance novel? Oooooh, scary

LOL, or yeah stroke her face while she sleeps.  The more I watch S1 knowing what I know now the more I see Damon's villainy as an act of bravado. An OTT version of pretense that he is evil to pretend to exact revenge on Stefan.  The coach Tanner scene is a prime example of that. Stefan sees through the act and Damon realises that so goes that extra step to prove Stefan wrong or right..whatever. The brothers have always been touchy about their humanity showing when they are pretending it's off.

Damon struggled with this more than Stefan I believe. Damon's biggest secret was that he missed being human and so over compensated to prove the opposite yet he accepted it. To be a vampire you had to accept the nature of a vampirism and all it encompassed because there was no door number 3.  No point in dwelling so he accepted that his human life was over and accepted his vampirism and tried to revel in the good parts. He is a fatalist after all.  In comparison, after his initial murder spree came to pass, Stefan rejected his  nature and worked  against it fuelled by his friend Lexie.

 

Gah, the complexity of Stefan was ruined for me when they put him back with Elena in the S3 finale without exploring fully what the ripper meant to Stefan as a character. Instead it was brushed under the rug to facilitate the triangle and Elena's choice.

[TigerLynx]

I hated the humanity switch and the ripper concept from day one.  I thought Damon's explanation about Stefan denying and never learning to control his blood lust being the problem was much better.  It doesn't help that the writers then proceeded to constantly retcon the switch and ripper nonsense every other episode.

[Aeryn13]

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So basically his switch was OFF when he met Elena pre-her-parents' death?

I posted my theory about this previously but I think his switch was on in that meeting and then, before he did whatever he felt like he would have to do to free Katherine and face Stefan, he switched it off. I believe there are a 2 or 3 months between that night Elena`s parents died and the Pilot.

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Gah, the complexity of Stefan was ruined for me when they put him back with Elena in the S3 finale without exploring fully what the ripper meant to Stefan as a character. Instead it was brushed under the rug to facilitate the triangle and Elena's choice.

I thought that part of the final few episodes of Season 3 was very rushed. It was Stelena/Delena teasing all Season, then the roadtrip episode which was Delena and afterwards Stelena were practically together again. And Elena still told both brothers she knew she had to make a choice, she just didn`t want to lose whoever she didn`t choose. I believe it was the penultimate episode of the Season. Heck, she basically admitted she was kind of stringing them along. Only the circumstances in the Finale with Matt asking "who should I take you to?" made her actually choose. 

And then they pretty much threw that over right as Season 4 started. Which, I get the sire bond but if it`s so rare, I kinda have a hard time buying it here. That vampire Damon sired in the 40s, Charlotte, he said she was crazy about him as a human. Okay, fine, so a rare sire bond sparked after turning her. But Elena has very conflicting feelings at this point. She admitted to first realizing she loved Damon in the Season 3 Opener when he gave her the necklace. But she was still very much in love with Stefan then, too. So why does the super-rare sire bond spark with her of all people when she loves them both at this point and her choice for Stefan even superceeded Damon one episode earlier?

Meanwhile Damon was obsessed with Katherine and didn`t love another woman also but he doesn`t become sire-bonded to Kat. WTF? Where is the logic in this? I thought it was so rare because it only happened when the human in question had such strong feelings for the vamp that sired them, that vampirism heightened them beyond belief. Not when they kinda, sorta, love them too.   

I know, I know, the answer is: contrivance fairy. They needed the sire bond explanation to quickly bring Delena together after choosing to dump the organically growing route at the end of Season 3 and going full Stelena instead. Then they needed it to create angst for the pairing and especially for the big pay-off in the end. I`m a cynical person and I would have fully believed Season 4 would end with another "Elena really chooses Stefan when it comes down to it" moment if not for seriously every character ever making that exact statement in every single episode after the sire bond was revealed. It was so freaking obvious anti-foreshadowing that they might as well have written "no, she won`t, she will choose Damon this Season" in purple crayon right across the screen.

Damon getting the cure was equally obvious but that they changed when the entire internet figured it out months in advance. To this day I wonder what they planned to do afterwards. Carry on the show with human Damon for the remainder? Not a snowball`s chance in hell. Somehow, he would have been revamped.          

[dreamcatcher]

18 hours ago, miss-vanilla said:

Gah, the complexity of Stefan was ruined for me when they put him back with Elena in the S3 finale without exploring fully what the ripper meant to Stefan as a character. Instead it was brushed under the rug to facilitate the triangle and Elena's choice.

I agree. I liked the beginning of S3 and Stefan's ripper side... But then he became bipolar by showing his humanity/love for his brother one moment, going completely crazy the other. I don't get how the same, switch-off, ripper mode Stefan could save Damon's life AND almost drive Elena off the bridge. It just doesn't make sense. And Lexie said that she needed months (or even years) to bring him back yet he became the good old Stefan we knew without ever dealing with what he went through.

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought that part of the final few episodes of Season 3 was very rushed. It was Stelena/Delena teasing all Season, then the roadtrip episode which was Delena and afterwards Stelena were practically together again. And Elena still told both brothers she knew she had to make a choice, she just didn`t want to lose whoever she didn`t choose. I believe it was the penultimate episode of the Season. Heck, she basically admitted she was kind of stringing them along. Only the circumstances in the Finale with Matt asking "who should I take you to?" made her actually choose. 

And then they pretty much threw that over right as Season 4 started. Which, I get the sire bond but if it`s so rare, I kinda have a hard time buying it here. That vampire Damon sired in the 40s, Charlotte, he said she was crazy about him as a human. Okay, fine, so a rare sire bond sparked after turning her. But Elena has very conflicting feelings at this point. She admitted to first realizing she loved Damon in the Season 3 Opener when he gave her the necklace. But she was still very much in love with Stefan then, too. So why does the super-rare sire bond spark with her of all people when she loves them both at this point and her choice for Stefan even superceeded Damon one episode earlier?

Meanwhile Damon was obsessed with Katherine and didn`t love another woman also but he doesn`t become sire-bonded to Kat. WTF? Where is the logic in this? I thought it was so rare because it only happened when the human in question had such strong feelings for the vamp that sired them, that vampirism heightened them beyond belief. Not when they kinda, sorta, love them too.   

I know, I know, the answer is: contrivance fairy. They needed the sire bond explanation to quickly bring Delena together after choosing to dump the organically growing route at the end of Season 3 and going full Stelena instead. Then they needed it to create angst for the pairing and especially for the big pay-off in the end. I`m a cynical person and I would have fully believed Season 4 would end with another "Elena really chooses Stefan when it comes down to it" moment if not for seriously every character ever making that exact statement in every single episode after the sire bond was revealed. It was so freaking obvious anti-foreshadowing that they might as well have written "no, she won`t, she will choose Damon this Season" in purple crayon right across the screen.

Damon getting the cure was equally obvious but that they changed when the entire internet figured it out months in advance. To this day I wonder what they planned to do afterwards. Carry on the show with human Damon for the remainder? Not a snowball`s chance in hell. Somehow, he would have been revamped.          

I think they shouldn't have made Elena choose anyone in S3 finale. It was definitely rushed and they changed it again a few episodes later. And I hated the sire bond plotline because it was both a way to appease the Stelena fandom and a way to put Delena together asap. I thought that their relationship was developing pretty organically in S3 as you said, so they didn't need the sire bond.

I don't remember the exact line, but I think that Damon compelled Elena to find the guy she needs, which at that point meant that she shouldn't compromise for anything less than the exciting love that would consume her and whatever else he said she needed. Then her parents died and she said that she needed someone stable to kinda bring her back to life. So I took this reveal to mean that Elena truly loved Stefan, but the love she needed and she wanted all along was what she felt for Damon. Stefan was the guy she needed during her darkest time. I guess this interpretation could upset Stelena fans, but since I liked both of the pairings (admittedly, I slightly prefer Delena over Stelena, but I would be happy with either), for me it just makes sense. You may fall out of love, but that doesn't undo what you've been through and what you felt. It just means that you changed and need something different. I actually think that Stefan couldn't really develop as a person with Elena, he was a bit stuck. Not because of Elena, it's just that he never wanted her to see his bad side and he was avoiding to deal with his "ripper" side. With Caroline he seemed more comfortable with his vampire nature and that's exactly what Stefan needed.

[Aeryn13]

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Stefan was the guy she needed during her darkest time. 

In the Pilot episode she was obviously quite depressed about her parent`s death and noone could really help, not her family, not her friends. But Stefan could. He did. He brought something into her life that made her want to live again. Then she became a vampire and had a difficult time handling it. She was quite depressed, noone could really help her and this time, Stefan was part of that group. Damon was not. So the set-ups were incredibly similar to me.

Of course with Stelena there was also the doppelganger-love-curse. Which I understood to mean they would be unconsciously drawn to each other. Markos said he cast that spell basically to get a set of doppelgangers in one place and what better to do this than the promise of true love. So basically a hoax. However, if those people didn`t know about this promised true love, they couldn`t search for it consciously. I thought it was an elegant way to explain why doppelgangers stumbled across each other all over history apparently - that was the curse - and why they felt initial attraction but true feelings developing between them was organic.

In terms of what Elena wanted, I was always a bit of a loss. She broke up with Matt because he had planned out their future for her. And fair enough that at 17 she probably felt too stifled by that. By my guess is his planned future was: live in Mystic Falls, get married, start a family and grow old together. Which is exactly the future she DID want. She told Stefan as much when she said she never wanted to be a vamp. And it is exactly the future the show told us she had with Damon. After all the epic adventure stuff over the course of the show. Ironic she chose the one man who seemed least suited for and interested in such a life. I guess she wanted the wildness AND the normal life, not just one.

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I actually think that Stefan couldn't really develop as a person with Elena, he was a bit stuck. Not because of Elena, it's just that he never wanted her to see his bad side and he was avoiding to deal with his "ripper" side. With Caroline he seemed more comfortable with his vampire nature and that's exactly what Stefan needed.

He hated being a vampire. And Elena was basically the "good" Katherine, the girl he wanted to fall in love with when he fell in love with Kat back in the day. She never wanted to be a vamp and he could dream of humanity alongside her. Which is why when she became a vampire and got "darker", as she herself said, it truly did make him sad. 

Caroline had the tightest control on her vampire nature. She could pass for human rather effortlessly while still embracing her vampiric nature. So, as you said, it allowed Stefan to be more comfortable with his nature too. I think he would have been happy with her as a vampire.  

[Aeryn13]

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Questiya says that she kept watching the doppels meeting and mating over centuries but we the audience don't.

I believed her when she said that so while you are right, the audience wasn`t privvy to it, I took it as canon that it happened. Granted, it is also more retconning of previous stuff but I try to make all the new info fit into a canon I can at least explain to myself. 

And of course not all Doppelgangers met. We never knew what Tatia`s husband looked like but presumably not like Stefan or Klaus/Elijah would have mentioned that.  

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And we already had an elegant explanation for the doppelganger phenomena - nature's way of ensuring that a spell created by a human could still be broken. 

IMO that still remained the case. Neither Silas`, nor Qetsiyah`s nor Markos` spells created them but nature`s way of retaliating against Silas` immortality spell.  

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The purpose of the doppelganger-nonsense of season 5 was to add a "Cosmic" quality to Stelena that erased free will on Elena's part. So she never really loved Stefan or chose him. She just fell for him because of Cosmic/ Magic stuff.

Both Stefan and Elena pondered that question at the end of the episode and agreed that what they had had was real. I also remember Plec answering this in an interview and stating that Markos` spell wasn`t the reason Stelena actually fell in love or that that love wasn`t genuine and real.

[dreamcatcher]

OK I have a question because I can't remember if it was answered on the show. What is the connection between Amara and Tatia?

And btw, most of the show's mythology doesn't make sense. It's not that the storylines per se were awful, but every new info we got somehow erased everything we already knew. At some point I just stopped questioning what's happening because the show was full of plotholes. I get that keeping a show on air for 8 years isn't an easy task, but I don't understand how producers can forget so easily their own storylines and little details. They could keep a track on their own fandom and I'm sure they will find excessive details, different interpretations and even plot ideas that are great and work with the story as it is.

[Aeryn13]

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The spell in this case was Esther Mikaelson's spell to bind Klaus's hybrid nature. She used blood from Tatia, a human. Therefore to ensure that the spell was not un-breakable, nature created a doppelganger of Tatia that would recur every 500 years in her bloodline. Katherine was Klaus's first chance to break to curse. After that, Elena.

Oh, I see, you meant the doppelgangers that originated from that spell whereas I was talking about all the shadow-selves. Sorry for being unclear. The shawdow-selves, I think, nature creatured for pretty much the same reason after Silas and Amara became immortal. To retaliate against this spell violating nature, cure or not. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for shadow selves to exist.  

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OK I have a question because I can't remember if it was answered on the show. What is the connection between Amara and Tatia?

Apparently Silas and Amara had human shadow-selves. Going by Elena having a human Stefan-self in her generation, I would guess that those shadow-selves appeared as a matched set in every generation and lots of them met and got together, according to Qetsiyah. Tatia was one in a long line of Amara-shadows. Katherine and Elena were others.

I took it as nature creating those basic look-alikes that could die to make up for those two immportal being who just didn`t. Hilarious when even the shadow-selves become "immortal" through vampirism.

[dreamcatcher]

25 minutes ago, doram said:

It got to the point where they couldn't even remember their own storylines between episodes. LOL!

Amara and Tatia were all played by Nina Dobrev. Amara was a human woman that Silas fell in love with. Tatia is her descendant and her doppelganger.

Only... did Amara ever have any children before Qestiyah made her the Anchor and calcified her? 

Well the whole petrova line history is all over the place. Tatia for example was a bulgarian who for some reason happened to be in a vikings community in the "new world", a community of werewolves at that. And then somehow her line ended up back in bulgaria, where Katherine was born. I don't even remember Nadia's story and how we ended up with Isobel and Elena.

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, I see, you meant the doppelgangers that originated from that spell whereas I was talking about all the shadow-selves. Sorry for being unclear. The shawdow-selves, I think, nature creatured for pretty much the same reason after Silas and Amara became immortal. To retaliate against this spell violating nature, cure or not. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for shadow selves to exist.  

Apparently Silas and Amara had human shadow-selves. Going by Elena having a human Stefan-self in her generation, I would guess that those shadow-selves appeared as a matched set in every generation and lots of them met and got together, according to Qetsiyah. Tatia was one in a long line of Amara-shadows. Katherine and Elena were others.

I took it as nature creating those basic look-alikes that could die to make up for those two immportal being who just didn`t. Hilarious when even the shadow-selves become "immortal" through vampirism.

Ok so that means that there were many doppelgangers throughout history and somehow Klaus only knew of Katherine and Elena. How convenient that the only doppelganger to be chased in 500 years was the one who also happened to have vampires and a Bennett witch to help her out.

[TigerLynx]

I gave up on trying to figure out the mythology.  I liked the idea of a doppelganger being created because of the spell Esther placed on Klaus, but the writers went and screwed that up with the shadow selves SL.  The one thing that would be consistent is that there were doppelgangers running around everywhere, but Klaus and Elijah couldn't find them.  This is the group of vampires (Klaus, Rebekah, Stefan, Damon, Michael, and possibly Elijah) that were all in New Orleans in the 1920s, but didn't have a clue Katherine was there to.

To me, the doppelgangers/shadow selves, Stefan's amnesia, Damon/Elena's first meeting, the sire bond, Elena having Alaric erase her memories of Damon were the writers trying to take a short cut to have Elena flip flop between Stefan and Damon because that was easier than actually dealing with any consequences.  In Season Six, I thought they were going to put Elena and Stefan back together, Damon with Bonnie, and Caroline with Enzo.  I think when they finally realized Nina was leaving, that all changed.

[Aeryn13]

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Elena having Alaric erase her memories of Damon 

They created an even bigger plothole with this in Season 8. Elena`s memory loss was a big deal in Season 6. And when Alaric was made human again, the compulsion didn`t break. Yet when Stefan is made human again, his compulsions broke all over the place. And the explanation in this case is most certainly: oops. 

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n Season Six, I thought they were going to put Elena and Stefan back together, Damon with Bonnie, and Caroline with Enzo.  I think when they finally realized Nina was leaving, that all changed.

That`s possible. I`m undecided about Stefan/Caroline because they already got a nifty little build up during Seasons 4 and 5 and the storyline with her Mom dying seemed solid to ultimately bring them together.

But still, they could have done all that you mentioned and have Elena leave in pretty much the same way. Now I like that they didn`t do it even though I shipped Bamon and lowkey liked Caroline/Enzo but I don`t see a true storytelling reason for Nina`s absence starting Season 7 to change such plans. It needs some adjustment but overall all those romantic pairings are not dependent on it.

It would have left Stefan alone after she left and since I believe they kinda made Caroline the new female lead more than Bonnie, a romance with Enzo wouldn`t have been a "main" one like it was with a much more prominent character like Stefan. So okay, I see some roadblocks but if they really, truly wanted it, they could have done it. Or have at the very least end Elena without a romantic ship. Like, back to the triangle of "I can`t really decide" before they put her in a sleeping spell.  

[TigerLynx]

Nina told them in Season Four that Season Six would be her last.  She would not be signing a new contract.  So the writers had plenty of time to figure out an exit SL for Elena.  They should have followed through on the Elena having Alaric erase her memories of Damon SL (although like so many other things on this show, I am baffled as to how Alaric erased the Damon memories, but left the Stefan memories and everything else that had happened during that time intact), had Elena turn human without ever reuniting with Damon, and leave Mystic Falls to have the human life she wanted.  I think they did the sleeping spell in order to keep Elena sort of on the show.  However, it was a dumb idea, and it left Elena and other characters in limbo.  Once Elena's body became the moonstone, and it was getting shuffled around between the gang depending on who they thought would be better able to protect it that week, it was just ridiculous.

Edited March 22, 2017 by TigerLynx

[dreamcatcher]

The promise of getting Elena back (and Nina back on the show) was what kept some of the fans. The ratings did drop but I don't think it was solely because of Nina. Either way, a million people tuned in for the finale so I guess Nina's return did help a little. So I understand why they didn't want to end her story back in S6.

Btw I think that the producers didn't really think they would get past S6, which is why they didn't think Nina's exit through. I think Paul was also unsure about his contract renewal at some point so had he left too, the show was over. But even with the drop in the ratings, tvd was one of their longest running tv shows and all the others shows on the cw are pretty new so they had to keep it on. Sort of like what's going on with spn right now. It's not going to get cancelled until the other shows get past the 4th-5th seasons and only when the ratings drop significantly/they can't get any of the actors back.

[Chaos Theory]

On 3/20/2017 at 2:29 PM, KatWay said:

With Damon the line between switch on and switch off was always a lot less clear cut than with most of the other characters we saw. Like, he was killing Whitmores (and other people) left and right even with the switch on, wasn't he. And was he actually switched off in S1? Cause he was carelessly killing but also had a ton of emotions, positive and negative. Elena with switch off was a robot who hated everybody, and Stefan was a psycho who hated everyone but Damon.

The S3 finale flashback was just meant to appease the Delena shippers since the season ended on a Stelena note. It never made a lot of sense tbh. Damon met Katherine's human doppelganger and went...okay,guess I won't eat you then, have a good life, bye.

One of the parts where this show falls really flat in comparison to Buffy is how Buffy's continuous flashbacks built on each other and deepened our understanding of the past every time, while TVD's flashbacks pretty much just retconned stuff every time a new one came up. Or maybe some of it was even planned beforehand but the execution was so poor it always felt like it made no sense.

I always felt the opposite, to be honest. Damon's intense hatred of Katherine after discovering her betrayal and her rejection seemed like he never got over what she did to him. Meanwhile Stefan was mostly indifferent to her except for the threat she posed and when she turned human he tried to see her as the person she could have been and forgave her.

Damon could hold a grudge couldn't he?  And this was with his humanity on.  I think it was interesting that even he admitted that he was a dick regardless but he was less of a dick when he had his humanity.

i thought everyone else bounced quite nicely when their switch got flipped.  I especially liked Caroline (who to me slowly but almost completely became the female lead of the show) when her switch got flipped.  (Does that sound dirty to anyone else?).  I would have liked to see her with her humanity turned off for a little while longer but whatever.   

I actually like Elena without her humanity.  She was don't give a fuck.  Which was kind of refreshing.  Then again we already had Katherine for that.

I think one of the things I did like about the show was that it continued to ask which brother was actually worse.  People may like Stefan better but he needed to keep a tighter reign on himself and when he lost control he became a true monster while Damon for better or worse was who he was.    I thought that was an interesting question.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Chaos Theory
Because my phone makes up words

[Aeryn13]

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Now that I think about it, season 1/2 did a far better portrayal of the dynamics of the cast. You have Damon making (sarcastic) parenting comments to Stefan ("you made the football team! I'm so proud")

Sarcastic yes but that doesn`t mean to me that Damon was a Dad and Stefan really a teenager. If Damon was "too old" for the youngsters, then Stefan is as well. Anything else doesn`t make sense to me and it meassuring them with different standards. Both have over a century on the human teens. Why is Stefan not a grown ass man? Because he is.

As I said, I don`t think either were too old.      

Rebekah went to highschool as well, pursuing Matt and going to Prom etc. And on The Originals the same character had an on again/off again thing with a grown man. Who she also helped raise from childhood and her brother considered a son.  

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His relationship with Caroline is regarded as scandalous.

Her mother makes one comment about him being too old. Other than that, noone really comments among the adults. As for her own crowd, Elena and Bonnie only object to the relationship once it becomes clear how bad Caroline is treated not because of any age difference. A girl in my senior year of highschool dated a guy at 35 years of age. Not quite the norm but not that big of a deal either.  And the guy wasn`t nearly as hot as any of this cast. 

 

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Damon should definitely have fit in with the younger crowd his own age. But seeing this grown man fooling around with teens was creepy.

Miles definitely vary very much on it being creepy. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Aeryn13]

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 Like I said, even if they were just characters in a book with no pictorial reference, it would still be gross that this (apparently) much older man is hanging around teens.

Even in a book I could read that no matter how Stefan looks, he is actually 160+ so if I was creeped out by his brother of 7-8 years older hangs with teens, I`d definitely be with Stefan as well. Anything else would be totally hypocritical in my book. 

Besides, 25 isn`t that much older than 17/18. It`s not like people from those age groups never, ever hang out with each other. Or that highschool girls have older boyfriends even. I`m not from the US but is that really such a big scandal there?  

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I think Bonnie and Elena were raising eyebrows at Daroline from the moment he showed up at cheerleading practice. (Another flag! A grown-ass man hanging around cheerleaders. Creepy.)

I don`t think their reaction was even remotely due to such concerns. Elena had met Damon and pegged him as more dangerous than Stefan, that was clear. If her first impression had been different, she`d have probably been "okay". Bonnie was just like "who is that?". And the other cheerleaders were likely like "great, our team leader is late because she banged some random hottie".  

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I definitely think that audience reaction (or non-reaction) to things like Daroline and Damon screwing both Elena and her mother played into the decision to go the Caroline/Alaric dynamic in seasons 7/8.

I highly doubt that. If they didn`t choose to incorporate Candice` real life pregnancy with the Gemini-baby-transfer storyline, I don`t think the writers would have even thought of it. Because that brought the characters together in the first place.