Past Seasons Discussion : Tales From The Crypt

[Jads]

Anyone else re-watching this summer?

Me!

I started doing a selective re watch picking out my favourite episodes but then decided to just go for it and re watch the whole lot. I'm up to the car wash episode in S1 where Elena works out Stefan's secret. Previously it felt like this kind of dragged but I'm enjoying it much more. I still can't care about Vicky. I forgot how interesting Bonnie ' s finding her magic was. I love Grams and wish there was more Bennett witches both past and present.

I usually make it as far as the end of S3 though. I might try S4 though.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Stayed all day watching S5 and made it to the end.  Wow, S5 was bad. 

 

There were a few good parts - and other than how funny Enzo was when first introduced, I can't think of more.  I'm glad I made it through and can start S6 now.  I did like most of the S5 finale, I'm happy Alaric came back and still pissed that Elena was one extra person who had to cross through Bonnie to make it back from the Other Side.  Really unnecessary, maybe she could've kept an eye on the witch instead and stopped Luke from stopping the spell.  Or, hell, maybe she could've just had a seat somewhere, anywhere else!  Sorry, not an Elena fan.

 

I'm looking forward to S6 - I really liked most of it this season so it shouldn't be hard to watch again.  

 

 

I'm up to the car wash episode in S1 where Elena works out Stefan's secret.

I'm with you, Jads.  That ep has never been my favorite but it was definitely better on re-watch.  I also agree about Vicki.  I'm glad she wasn't around for long.  Lost Girls is a fun episode and so is the one after that.  Hell, the only S1 episode I still don't like is 1x17 (?) with the Stefan Elena Matt Caroline double date.  That one has never gotten better for me and I usually skip it.  I hope you'll post your thoughts as you go along, Jads.  It's fun to see what comes up on a re-watch!

[miss-vanilla]

Ahhh! good old season 5. The season of character assassination that escaped none of them.

 

The doppelpalooza of forced triangles that was the demise of Kat, and killed everything awesome about her to the point that I was actively campaigning for the writers to kill her already and put her out of her misery.

Kat became embarrassing, and that was just tragic. Side note: I enjoyed her early (human) s5 story, she was hilarious, but the Stefan obsession just ruined her.

Talking of triangles, the whole doppelganger curse BS also served no purpose other than create more faux angst for DE and contrived SE scenes, which regressed both Stefan and Elena and there growth to season one levels of denial, enabling, and Damon bashing.. The very reasons I could not with them back in S1/S2, Way too many WTF moments to count or list with them in S5.

Damon, bless him, became a mad man, running around in circles, making bad decisions, unable to connect basic facts and join the dots. I didn't recognize him for most of this season, I'm sure the real Damon was locked up somewhere and a Damon doppelganger was the one on screen, because I sure as hell didn't recognize the Damon we got for most of this season. What? It's not that far fetched in a season of the Doppelgangers. He was better towards the end, as was most of them.

Season 4/5 also ruined Caroline for me. A once beloved character, that I rooted for to become someones number 1 choice, became a character that was used to foil DE, and in turn reduce her character to triangle fodder/angst. My biggest reason for not getting behind Steroline, I can't stand her, and S6 did nothing to redeem her in my eyes.

So, In a nutshell, S5 was a writing disaster for our gang, barely anyone escaped unscathed by the writers pen, and is best ignored, lol, well, at least for me anyway. 

Season 6 redeemed TVD for me. I enjoyed most of it, and having done a recent rewatch of all seasons (except s5) I would place it as my third fave after S1and 2, even though, I enjoyed my fave character the most in S3 (Damon).

 

 

[Jads]

I have so many thoughts, I hope this isn't too jumbled. I have got under to the end of here goes the neighbourhood. I have pretty much enjoyed every episode. The whole season is so dark. The lighting is ridiculously dark. There was a comment above about Stefan being quietly menacing and wow he really is.

I think what's so great about S1 is the villains. There are so many of them! Some downright evil like Frederick the tomb vamp, some are more ambiguous like Pearl. Is Alaric a goodie or a baddie? You never quite know.

[Jads]

Ok more S1 thoughts:

I think Ian Somerhalder has it completely wrong when he said Damon's S1 appeal was all about being sexy, revealing in blood etc. (recent Comic con panel). I actually think the whole Vicky arc is pretty detrimental to Damon 's character. He turns her because he's bored, that's pretty stupid. Even though I love Lexi as a character, Damon killing her at least is part of a plan (I'm ignoring the horrible ret con where he sleeps with her in the 70s and he kills her cos he's sad!). I really liked him infiltrating the Council through his chat with drunk Carol and bringing Liz the vervain, that was clever. Smart, scheming, Evil with a purpose Damon is a interesting character and one I can engage with. Damon dancing on a bar, shirtless is dull. Therefore I'll always enjoy '162 candles' over 'lost girls' even with the flashbacks. Gavel!

I am struggling a bit with the Delena relationship in S1. Even pre Miss Mystic, Elena seems more flirty than sympathetic/ friendly than I remember. I am really enjoying her friendships with Bonnie and Caroline even if the latter is up and down. I used to like Elena so much and I'm sad as to where her character ended up.

I also forgot how much I liked Jeremy pre muscles. I liked the fact that compulsion seemed to really change him from druggy dropout and into original enough teen settings and wish they had done more to examine the side effects of compulsion. Too often compulsion is used as a handy vampire get out clause for behaving badly without examining the issue of removing the human ' s free will. Which brings me into the whole Stefan stalking Elena and keeping secrets from her. I am definitely not ok with the whole scenerio but I'm trying to work out how the writers could have dealt with the whole information dump better. I'm struggling if I'm honest. Which makes it easy for me to be glad that SE have broken up.

My final point of this huge ramble is to give IS and PW huge kudos for their portrayal of Defan. Even during S1,the brotherly dynamic is evident even if their relationship is strained to breaking point. Stefan's admission in the S6 finale about Elena bringing the 2 brothers together makes their scenes feel more poignant. Man, this show has degenerated into a crap fest. I probably won't be waxing this lyrical once I get to S4/5 :)

[miss-vanilla]

Ha Jads. Continue. It's lovely to see reviews from S1, even if it is from a rewatch POV. 

I am planning a rewatch myself before S7 starts. It's interesting to see if views on past incidents change with new info and character development (or retcons lol))

 

I am one of the rare few it seems, that still loves this show, despite it's flaws and bad writing at times. For my money, it is still a good hours worth of entertainment that I look forward too each week.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think Ian Somerhalder has it completely wrong when he said Damon's S1 appeal was all about being sexy, revealing in blood etc.

 

I think he confuses the fun of playing evil somewhat with character complexity. Because if all Damon had ever been was a bloodthirsty villain, that is as one-note as it gets. It can work for an arc, maybe half a Season or so but then it becomes stale. The villain can have funny one-liners and everything but if that is their entire shtick, it is just one-note.

 

What I can agree with is that Damon lost some of his "bite", pardon the pun, when they moved him in the position of the romantic lead. Which is to be expected if the bad boy and the good girl get together. There are certain tropes that play out in such a scenario and it is pretty clear that Ian enjoys playing them as much as Paul did when it was his turn to be Elena`s romantic hero. Which is to say, not at all.

 

And Damon and Elena did have a more fun, yet sexy dynamic back in Seasons 1 and 2. The writers made several missteps writing them as a couple later which makes you look back on those past times more fondly. At least I do.

 

But IMO the juxtaposition of Damon the villain and Damon the guy who showed signs of caring about his brother and was thawing towards this rather innocent and goody-goody girl who represented everything he didn`t really care for made him work. It showed that there were multiple sides to him. Quite early on there is a small scene before Elena knows anything when Damon is all but playing games with her in mentioning Katherine and Elena surprises him by acknowledging Damon must be hurting over Katherine`s loss as well, that I always found very neat. It depicted Elena being full of genuine empathy (her supposed main character trait) and it showed how that caught Damon off guard. How it appealed to him, even despite himself. For me, those small scenes helped to build any future couple potential and possible Damon-redemption more than grandesque stuff.  ,  

 

 

 

My final point of this huge ramble is to give IS and PW huge kudos for their portrayal of Defan. Even during S1,the brotherly dynamic is evident even if their relationship is strained to breaking point. Stefan's admission in the S6 finale about Elena bringing the 2 brothers together makes their scenes feel more poignant.

I was very pleasantly surprised the show put it in dialogue because while it had been my feeling for some time now, everything had been so romantic triangle-focused for so long, I didn`t think we would get such an admission. And even if one hated the triangle, it offered a little consolation, I felt. You had Katherine who nearly broke their bond for good and then you had Elena who, in the end, repaired it again. Granted, she personally came this close to completely finishing what Katherine started and her contribution was less personal and more being their object of affection which forced them to stay in one place long enough to have to deal with each other  but she was the impetus.     

[2Old2BAFangirl]

 

I am one of the rare few it seems, that still loves this show, despite it's flaws and bad writing at times. For my money, it is still a good hours worth of entertainment that I look forward too each week.

I'm one of those too!  I love this show.  Even with as bad as S5 was, I can still find something to love in each episode.  TVD and Supernatural are absolute Must See TV in my house - my poor husband, he's up to date on both shows and had to sit through re-watches as well! :)

 

 

The whole season is so dark. The lighting is ridiculously dark.

THIS so much!!  I've heard Julie Plec talk about giving the show a darker, movie-like feel, but sometimes I feel like I need to turn the brightness all the way up on my TV so I can see what's happening!!

 

So, I'm up to mid S6 right now.  This binge watch has reminded me of a couple of things I usually comment on when I'm watching live. (My poor husband)

 

Such as - Damon is threatening to kill a witch.  Damon, of the neck snap and heart snatch.  What's his method of death for a witch?  Choking them.  Everytime.  He tries to choke them and they're always able to give him a witchy migraine to make him stop.  I get that it's to further the dang story, but really?  Everytime?  Damon is one don't learn freakin' vampire!!  Damon threatening to kill anyone else but a witch?  Neck snap, done.  Heart snatch, done.  It's so frustrating to watch him try to choke a witch, everytime!  Did I mention, every. time?  LOL

 

Also, vampires seem to get over people trying to kill them or trap them or whatever pretty quickly.  Damon doesn't hold a grudge against any of the crew that's tried to kill him - he shrugs it off.  I remember when Rebekah has him strung up in S3 and Bonnie sees him there, Klaus tells her to go ahead and rescue Damon, the guy who turned her mother, and she walks away.  Damon doesn't seem to hold it against her at all.  Of course, Stefan gets a pass everytime he locks Damon up, in S1 (although that did result in the Vicki turning), is S4 after Kol compels him, no hard feelings!

Everyone tried to kill Klaus a bunch of times, meh, no biggie. Kill 2 of my brothers?  I'll rant a bit but meh, no biggie.  Damon's dying from werewolf venom at the end of S4, of course you can have my blood to cure you.  Elijah kidnapped Elena to get the Original Witch to stop channeling the Bennett witches because ALL the Originals, including him, would die - then, okay, you're good to go!  And so on - it's funny to me!

 

S5 had some lingering effects though.  Liz's cancer in S6 can not be cured with vampire blood.  S4 had Megan's heart defect cured with vamp blood.  S5 had Damon torturing Wes with various diseases like ebola, rabies and flesh eating bacteria and vamp blood cured it all.  But apparently, no cancer cure with vamp blood.  It would've been so much more believable, IMO, without knowing vamp blood has cured every other thing before they needed it not to cure cancer.

 

I'm enjoying S6.  There's some moments that strain credulity - like Alaric wanting to protect Jo after knowing her for about 5 minutes and not killing Kai when he had his gun right to Kai's head. But it's okay, Kai was entertaining to me so I didn't mind him being around.  Plus Kai clubbing Elena with a tire iron will never not be fun for me!

 

Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts as your re-watch progresses!!  Sorry this turned into a freakin' TL:DR book of a post!

[Aeryn13]

 

half of the Internet were hating on Bonnie for not risking her life to save the man that had flipped a coin over whether she or her mother were forcibly turned into vampirism.

 

Wasn`t the coin flip over which brother would do it, Damon or Stefan? I thought they always had Bonnie`s mother in mind? But it`s been a while since I saw those eps so my memory may be faulty.

 

Honestly, I took this scene with Bonnie not rescuing Damon in a completely different way. Nowadays, she would probably try it because they are friends and those people have a tendency to rush into stupid things for their friends but I don`t see what Bonnie could have done against two original vampires in that situation, witchcraft or not. I took it more as Klaus was taunting her. 

 

Which was easy since he knew Bonnie wouldn`t be motivated enough to try for Damon. Not like, for example if they had tortured Elena or Caroline or Jeremy in which case she would have.

 

However, that Bonnie was conflicted at all, that she obviously did not enjoy seeing Damon in this predicament and that she called the others to tell them showed to me that whatever their relationship, she did not hate Damon. Not even in the wake of what happened to her mother. So really, for me this scene was quite positive for their relationship. Like I said, they are at a different level now but for where they were back then, it was good.

[LeafontheWind]

Wasn`t the coin flip over which brother would do it, Damon or Stefan? I thought they always had Bonnie`s mother in mind? But it`s been a while since I saw those eps so my memory may be faulty.

Nope, your memory is spot on! The coin flip was to determine which brother would do the turning and be the recipient of the wrath of the rest of the gang. And I am pretty sure Stefan lost that coin toss and was supposed to be the one who turned Bonnie's mother, but Damon did it instead because he knew the guilt would be too much for his brother.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

Wow, chill.

I never said Bonnie was Damon's slave.  I used an example that was stuck in my head, I certainly wasn't trying to be controversial here and I never thought Bonnie did anything wrong in that scene personally. 

 

So, this was fun while it lasted...

[Carrie Ann]

Okay, I just rewatched this scene (it's from 315, "All My Children," starts at about minute 26), and here is exactly how it goes down:

 

Damon and Stefan are in the car and talk about how Elena will hate them for doing this, but she only has to hate one of them. Only one of them has to do "the actual deed." (Intentional vagueness from the writers to build tension.) Coin flip, but we don't know who "wins."

 

Later, Bonnie and Abby are together inside the old witch house. They split up--Abby gives a look like she hears something--and Bonnie almost immediately runs into Stefan, who tells her Bex, Klaus, etc. have Elena and are going to kill her unless they can stop Esther. Bonnie says they can't, and Stefan responds that he'll have to find another way. She's trying to leave the room, and is scared and says, "Even if you kill us, Esther is drawing from our ancestry, living and dead." Stefan says that Esther is drawing from the witches. The only way to cut her off is if one of them is no longer a witch.

 

Cut to: Damon snapping Abby's neck.

 

Now, the show structures it to be suspenseful, like maybe Stefan is going to kill Bonnie. But that's just them holding back the brothers' plan from us until after it's complete. The whole point of the coin flip was to determine who would turn Abby; the other person would distract Bonnie and keep her from her mother. Damon and Stefan were clearly watching Abby and Bonnie and when they split up, they moved in to work their plan.

 

I do agree that it's silly to act like Damon not being upset that Bonnie didn't intervene at Klaus's is a show of magnanimity on his part, though.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[RachelKM]

I remember being super annoyed with Bonnie for a very long time and generally being pretty hard on her because I had a hard time forgiving her for Anna's death (yes I blamed her, I couldn't help it) .  But I cannot say I was ever particularly annoyed with her for not liking Damon and/or resenting his turning her mother.  I think I was a little annoyed that she seemed far less upset by Stefan who was equally responsible (as indicated in the quote below).  I guess it's possible she didn't realize Stefan was an equal and active player in the plan.

Okay, I just rewatched this scene (it's from 315, "All My Children," starts at about minute 26), and here is exactly how it goes down:

 

Damon and Stefan are in the car and talk about how Elena will hate them for doing this, but she only has to hate one of them. Only one of them has to do "the actual deed." (Intentional vagueness from the writers to build tension.) Coin flip, but we don't know who "wins."

 

Later, Bonnie and Abby are together inside the old witch house. They split up--Abby gives a look like she hears something--and Bonnie almost immediately runs into Stefan, who tells her Bex, Klaus, etc. have Elena and are going to kill her unless they can stop Esther. Bonnie says they can't, and Stefan responds that he'll have to find another way. She's trying to leave the room, and is scared and says, "Even if you kill us, Esther is drawing from our ancestry, living and dead." Stefan says that Esther is drawing from the witches. The only way to cut her off is if one of them is no longer a witch.

 

Cut to: Damon snapping Abby's neck.

 

Now, the show structures it to be suspenseful, like maybe Stefan is going to kill Bonnie. But that's just them holding back the brothers' plan from us until after it's complete. The whole point of the coin flip was to determine who would turn Abby; the other person would distract Bonnie and keep her from her mother. Damon and Stefan were clearly watching Abby and Bonnie and when they split up, they moved in to work their plan.

 

I do agree that it's silly to act like Damon not being upset that Bonnie didn't intervene at Klaus's is a show of magnanimity on his part, though.

Yeah this is how i remember it too.  And honestly, reading it now, what strikes me most and certainly more than it did at the time is that the discussion was how ELENA would hate them for harming BONNIE'S mom, dicks.  This is why I hate the triangle.  Both bothers are so much less annoying without her being their everything.... which means that this season might be the first time Damon is not 75% annoying since season 4 began. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by RachelKM

[LeafontheWind]

Yes, and at minute 36ish of the same episode Stefan and Damon have a conversation about how Stefan lost the coin toss and should have been the one to turn Abby. Maybe that is bad writing for the sake of misdirection, but that is what is canon on the show. Not that this means Damon would have the right to be upset that Bonnie didn't save him later on. I don't think she could have even if she wanted to. Besides, she has plenty of other legitimate reasons to dislike him and no obligation to save him. However, blaming only Damon for something that both brothers agreed to and acted upon is unfair, IMO. It could have (and should have according to what was said in this episode) just as easily been Stefan who was responsible for what happened to Abby.

[Aeryn13]

 

However, blaming only Damon for something that both brothers agreed to and acted upon is unfair, IMO. It could have (and should have according to what was said in this episode) just as easily been Stefan who was responsible for what happened to Abby.

 

I agree but that would have made Damon doing it regardless of Stefan losing the coin toss moot. At least in-universe. It was predictable that Stefan would lose because he is far more comfortable in the hero role and at this point was Elena`s primary love interest still. Damon on the other hand has created some kind of self-filling prophecy for himself where he is comfortable being the bad guy who is hated but may get things done a lot more.

 

Then he takes getting the expected hate as further justification to do more shady things that gets him hated on. And it`s not like being the pariah of their little social group doesn`t bug him at all, less so than Stefan who gets bi-polar when he thinls of himself as a villain role but more than Damon himself pretends. On the other hand, when he has something good going on, something that might actually make him happy even, he will be so paranoid about losing it, he will sabotage it himself. So at least he can "control" how/when the loss happens. 

 

Also agreed on how dickish it was that they only phrased it in terms of Elena`s feelings on the matter. But quite frankly, it was honest. It was pretty much the hang-up for them. And it was the myopic view of the show itself for the longest time. Every character did this. When Bonnie sacrificed herself to bring Jeremy back, she said "Elena needs him". Shouldn`t her primary reason be "because I love him and therefore am willing to trade my life for his?" I thought that WAS her reason actually but by show dialogue, she did it for Elena first and foremost.      

[DigitalCount]

I'm absolutely certain that the plan was never to kill Bonnie. You can tell by the wording of their decision. It was always going to be Abby. The coin thing was definitely whether Stefan or Damon would do the killing, which is why Damon went after Abby.

 

If it had been about Bonnie and Abby, it would have been "Bonnie lost the coin toss," not "I lost the coin toss."

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, what I posted up-thread isn't my interpretation of the events of the show. It's what the show presented. The scenes are pretty straightforward, though intentionally vague to begin with in order to create that suspense--that Stefan, whose humanity at this point was still in doubt, might really hurt Bonnie. But it is very clear that the way things went down was always the plan. It is implied (by Abby's look around as though she'd heard something; by Bonnie immediately running into Stefan) that D&S were watching them until they split up, and then they each followed their target. Going after one Bennett each to kill them and sort it out later? No. The plan was to turn Abby, and to keep Bonnie distracted and separated until the deed was done, and that's what they did. Stefan got the easier part of the job because Damon decided to let him off the hook.

[Aeryn13]

I pretty much always got Bonnie`s reactions to Damon. Compared to Caroline, who had more than legitimate beef but was reduced to a rallying cry of "ship wars, ship wars" and spouted ridiculous dialogue like favourably comparing rippering to sex so she came across like a big hypocrite. I mean, even in hindsight she said she defended the Stelena pairing so fiercely because she already had the hots for Stefan and in a weird way couldn`t understand how anyone could let go of such a catch. So, in the end, she wasn`t much objecting to certain actors as to certain people perperating them, Stefan was nice to her so she couldn`t give less of a crap about people he wasn`t nice to and vice versa.

 

Bonnie`s throughline with Damon was much more organic, I felt. He expressed some respect and concern for her back in Season 2 when Bonnie wanted to attempt the kill-Klaus-spell. Sure, he made clear Elena was his priority (you can`t blame him for that as that was true for their entire group) but he wanted Bonnie to save herself, too, if at all possible. Whereas with others, he wouldn`t have cared either way.

 

Something I didn`t get was the major hate boner the Bennett line of dead witches seemed to have for him. We learned in Season 1 that Emily made a pact with him, he would protect her descendants for something or other with his free-Katherine plan. And he kept his end of the deal. Meaning he protected the Bennett line for hundred plus years, minus the period he was held prisoner at Augustine. You know Damon was so obssessive about Katherine, switch on or off that he did what he could.

 

So why do the dead Bennett witches all hate him so much. Even when he tried to help for a good cause and wanted to talk to his currently switched-off-brother, they still screwed with the magic of his daylight ring and stuff. I don`t really understand this? Emily broke the pact, she says so and even apologizes in a scene where her spirit has taken over Bonnie. So, if he played guardian to the family, why`don`t they feel more friendly towards him? He actually paid upfront so THEY do owe him some loyalty IMO. Not Bonnie specifically.    

 

Emily pledged life and limb to Katherine after the latter supposedly saved her life. Lucy Bennett helped Katherine for the same reason. We have seen a couple of times witches be loyal to vamps for saving their lives. I think it was just because Damon was the designated villain back then but in that case, they should have tweaked the narrative somewhat. 

[Bitterswete]

I don't think TVD has ever been a really great show, or that it has had any really great seasons. It has had some good episodes and some good moments. And some seasons are better than others. But I just don't think the show ever came together enough to be really good.

 

While watching the first season of TVD, I thought the show had potential, and I was looking forward to it reaching that potential and getting really good. Only, by the end of season one, I felt the show was already starting to lose it. And the feeling just grew into season two and beyond.

 

So, for me, TVD is just one of those shows that could've been great but never really was. (Kind of like Smallville.) And I don't think any of the seasons were truly great either.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Bitterswete

[LeafontheWind]

I think that TVD was a great show from about the last third of Season 1 through the end of Season 3. For just over two years, I would openly tell people I watched this show and even convinced some of them to watch it with me. But Season 4 turned it into a guilty pleasure that I rarely discussed with others. Except on the Internet, of course...

[Carrie Ann]

I think that TVD was a great show from about the last third of Season 1 through the end of Season 3.

 

I think it really depends on how you define "great" and what you're looking for. I tend to follow the Roger Ebert concept of criticism, which is to approach the work according to its own goals and evaluate how well it performs on those terms. So from my perspective, in terms of supernatural teen drama, I agree that the latter part of S1 through S3 are truly excellent TV. Entertaining, engaging, well-acted, well-plotted, well-produced. I will defend that period of TVD to anyone (I'd actually say more like the last 2/3 of S1, personally, and could even be persuaded to go as far as 3/4.) Not all TV is trying to be Breaking Bad or The Americans, or even BtVS. TVD has different goals from BtVS, and it's possible to say that they are both great on their own terms, while also saying that BtVS is important and meaningful in a way that TVD is not and did not aspire to be.

[Bitterswete]

I think that TVD was a great show from about the last third of Season 1 through the end of Season 3. For just over two years, I would openly tell people I watched this show and even convinced some of them to watch it with me.

 

TVD has different goals from BtVS, and it's possible to say that they are both great on their own terms, while also saying that BtVS is important and meaningful in a way that TVD is not and did not aspire to be.

 

I've watched plenty of "guilty pleasure" shows that, as you say, were never BtVS and never aspired to be. They are just fun shows that aren't trying to be "great television," and I wouldn't claim they were the greatest shows ever. But they were good at what they were and what they did, and I love them.

 

So this isn't about me unfairly comparing TVD to great shows that are out of its league. This is me comparing it to other guilty pleasure shows that, while not aspiring to win Emmies, still didn't do some of the kinds of sloppy and lazy things I was noticing with TVD in its first few seasons. (Like resolving what should've been major storylines offscreen.)

 

I'm not saying I haven't enjoyed TVD sometimes. But, for me, it just never really clicked the way a great guilty pleasure usually does with me.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Carrie Ann]

Ah, gotcha. I shy away from calling things guilty pleasures, but this podcast I like has this category of shows they call "B Movie TV." Super enjoyable, competently produced, lots of drama and action...but maybe light on the social commentary, deeper meaning type stuff (they include shows they love like Banshee, Spartacus, and Arrow in that category). I think maybe we're talking about the same thing, but the difference for me is that I would basically put that TVD S1.5-3 run at the very top of my list of B-Movie TV, where you would put it more in the middle of yours.

[ByTor]

from my perspective, in terms of supernatural teen drama, I agree that the latter part of S1 through S3 are truly excellent TV. Entertaining, engaging, well-acted, well-plotted, well-produced.

I think my standards are lower...as long as I enjoy watching something, I'll watch, even if nothing about it makes sense.  Hell, I love Under the Dome, and I don't mean it as in love to hate or love to snark!  I didn't like Season 4 because I HATED that whole hunter/cure nonsense and season 5 with the Augustine vampire story (although I guess this goes to your point about being well-plotted, which I don't feel either season was).  I actually for some odd reason didn't mind season 6.

[Carrie Ann]

Oh, I agree. I'll keep watching something as long as I enjoy it, and even sometimes after I've lost the enjoyment, at which point it becomes "hope-watching." With TVD, I did not enjoy watching the show for most of S4-5, but kept hoping things would turn around and get back to the magic I felt in that golden S1-3 period. And actually, the hope-watching paid off for me, because I too liked Season 6. It did recapture some of the magic, for me. (The first half of the season, and then it kinda petered out in the end.) But probably more importantly, I'd revised my expectations way, way down after S4/5.

 

If I were introducing someone to the series now, I might just advise that they just skip S5 entirely, aside from the finale. The only things I really enjoyed were Silas and Katherine, and the only thing that is critical in terms of character development is Stefan closing the door on his relationship with Elena for good. Otherwise, it's just a slog with muddled characterization and storytelling. I don't remember enough of S4 to say it's totally skippable--I know I found the beginning of that season pretty effective (that memorial episode is really strong, for example), but then the sire bond happens and it's all blech in my mind from there.

[Bitterswete]

I shy away from calling things guilty pleasures, but this podcast I like has this category of shows they call "B Movie TV." Super enjoyable, competently produced, lots of drama and action...but maybe light on the social commentary, deeper meaning type stuff

 

Exactly. For me to consider TVD a truly "great," it would have have the same great character development, writing, story arcs, and so on as shows I do consider truly "great." But I just don't think it ever did.

 

But a lot of my favorite, guilty-pleasure shows aren't in that category either, and don't need to be in order for me to love them. 

 

That being said, TVD has never been high on my list of guilty pleasure shows either. It just never really grabbed me for some reason, even when I was mostly enjoying it. But that's just a matter of personal taste.

 

I think my standards are lower...as long as I enjoy watching something, I'll watch, even if nothing about it makes sense. 

 

Me to. If I'm really enjoying a show, I'll handwave (sometimes consciously) all kinds of stuff, like plot holes, bad continuity, etc. I think it's when I'm not enjoying a show overall that those mistakes get harder and harder to brush aside. Which is probably what happened with me with TVD. Because the show didn't really grab me early on, the flaws really stood out to me.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Aeryn13]

I gotta say for the second half of Season 1 and Season 2, I do consider the show genuinely good. Not just guilty pleasure but actual A-list. Couple of shows that are considered great just don`t appeal to me thematically so personally I could never see them as great even though I can acknowledge that technically they are well-written or well-acted.

 

Usually, shows I feel the most investment in to the point of being fannish or never those with "technical" perfection but tend to have more flaws. They just are so charming in some way, it makes up for it in spades. The best years of TVD for me fall somewhat in between. I never went fannishly ga-ga over it because it wasn`t a character-driven show for me but it didn`t have too many writing or acting pitfalls either.     

 

Now Season 2 wasn`t flawless, the werewolf interlude was meh for me but overall I enjoyed the plots and the pacing was fantastic. Like I said, it`s never really been a show for me that lived off character development but I thought most of the female characters had a particularly strong year in Season 2, especially Caroline and Katherine. Damon also had a decent arc. Only Stefan`s was definitely much better during Season 3.

 

I knew nothing about the books going in but everything I heard/read about the show, especially with the love triangle, screamed Twilight for TV. Since I thought the Twilight movies were dreadfully boring, that wasn`t a glowing recommendation  I was surprised to fnd that, couple episodes in, the show was so much better. And I don`t mean to damn with faint praise here, for the most part they pulled the concept off in my eyes. And I liked that vampires were a bit different here. Daylight rings are an obvious cheat to get around tedious night shoots but it was a refreshing change of pace for a vamp story nonetheless. I also liked the compulsion powers, vervain, siring, yet keeping stuff like having to be invited in from the lore.  

[Bitterswete]

I gotta say for the second half of Season 1 and Season 2, I do consider the show genuinely good. Not just guilty pleasure but actual A-list.

 

And, for me, season one was when I thought the show had the potential to be a really good show. But, by the end of season one, I was starting to get that feeling that it wasn't going to reach that potential. I was starting to see the lazines and lack of depth, and how things (characters, plots, etc) weren't really getting much chance to develop. Not that it became a bad show then. But I just don't think it ever reached "great" or "A-list" quality.

 

Couple of shows that are considered great just don`t appeal to me thematically so personally I could never see them as great even though I can acknowledge that technically they are well-written or well-acted.

 

I'm talking about great genre shows, shows that dealt with the same sorts of issues and themes as TVD but truly were A-list. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example (which was mentioned above). That was a great show. Not flawless. (It had some bad seasons, for example.) But when it was awesome it was awesome. And I don't think TVD has ever been as good as BtVS (or some other shows in that genre) are at their best.

 

Still I can name some shows I think TVD is better than technically, but I just personally like those other shows more. So I agree that a show being technically great won't automatically make me like it more than something else. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Aeryn13]

 

Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example (which was mentioned above). That was a great show. Not flawless. (It had some bad seasons, for example.) But when it was awesome it was awesome. And I don't think TVD has ever been as good as BtVS (or some other shows in that genre) are at their best.

 

I agree, it never reached the highs of Buffy. Though I think they were fundamentally different concepts, Whedon pretty much set out to do various metaphors for growing up via genre plots whereas TVD was primarily based upon a romantic love triangle. The latter is already a more simplistic concept. And I don`t think TVD ever really went for more than that. Sure, there were lots of supernatural plots as the backdrop of the romance but fundamentally, it wasn`t an allegory for or commentary on something. Which is okay, not every show has to do that. 

 

But it makes me judge both shows by different standards in a way. Buffy wanted to accomplish one thing and when it did, it was truly great. TVD wanted to accomplish something else, lets say something more small-scale. And when it accomplished that, it was very good IMO. Not great but good. Not sure I would ever give a non-character-driven-show a great, though. Simply because they just wouldn`t move me enough emotionally.

 

Where a show falls down for me is if it doesn`t accomplish their mission operative at all. Like I believe TVD still tried to keep the romance going as its primary focus during Seasons 4 and 5 as well but because it either overpowered the backdrop of genre plots or those plots sucked and were done with way less care, it failed spectacularly.

[Bitterswete]

I agree, it never reached the highs of Buffy. Though I think they were fundamentally different concepts, Whedon pretty much set out to do various metaphors for growing up via genre plots whereas TVD was primarily based upon a romantic love triangle. The latter is already a more simplistic concept. And I don`t think TVD ever really went for more than that. Sure, there were lots of supernatural plots as the backdrop of the romance but fundamentally, it wasn`t an allegory for or commentary on something. Which is okay, not every show has to do that. 

 

But it makes me judge both shows by different standards in a way.

 

Which is what I do. I used BtVS as an example of what I consider a "great" show, and to explain why I don't think TVD is on that level. But a show doesn't have to be on that level in order for me to consider it good in its own right.

 

That being said, even with guilty pleasure shows, you have some that have better execution than others. So I can enjoy a show that's kind of shallow and simplistic if they do what they do well. 

 

A lot of my problem with TVD is that, while they tried to be a little more ambitious than a lot of guilty pleasure shows, they often didn't do it all that well. Or they took shortcuts. Or they were just downright sloppy, like they couldn't be bothered to actually deal with some plot point they introduced. And that kind of thing annoys me more than when a show doesn't quite pull something off, but it feels like they were really trying.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Aeryn13]

 

A lot of my problem with TVD is that, while they tried to be a little more ambitious than a lot of guilty pleasure shows, they often didn't do it all that well. Or they took shortcuts. Or they were just downright sloppy, like they couldn't be bothered to actually deal with some plot point they introduced.

 

In the latter Seasons, absolutely, In Seasons 1 and 2, I was pretty impressed by the execution of the plot and how well it all flowed together. Even at the time stupid "oh geez, the sun and the moon curse" turned out to be a clever misdirection that nevertheless fit. 

 

To come back to Buffy, while I adore Season 2, what made it work for me was the emotional zinger of the Angelus arc. But if I look at it only as plot compared to the slow-burn set-up to ultimately introduce Klaus over Season 2 of TVD, I`d have to give the point to TVD. Easily. Now what gives Buffy the ultimare win are standout episodes that I don`t have in that vein in TVD. I have a couple favourites from Season 2 as well but nothing like an Surprise/Innocence and Passion combo. And I usually go by individual episodes/scenes more. One or two truly great ones and I forgive a lot of lackluster otherwise. 

 

But when it was actually good, I did consider TVD the best plot-show out of everything else I watched on TV during that time. Which is why I would award it higher than guilty pleasure for those Seasons 1.5 - 2. 

[Bitterswete]

In the latter Seasons, absolutely, In Seasons 1 and 2, I was pretty impressed by the execution of the plot and how well it all flowed together. Even at the time stupid "oh geez, the sun and the moon curse" turned out to be a clever misdirection that nevertheless fit. 

 

I liked the way the sun/moon curse thing turned. Of course, I think they pulled that clever twist out of their hind parts, but a lot of good shows do stuff like that, and the twist, however they came up with it, was still good.

 

However, so many things happened in seasons one and two that felt like rookie mistakes. Or just bad writing.

 

Like Bonnie had this huge problem with Stefan after what happened in season one. And I really wanted to see how that would play out. Only, suddenly, she's sitting around chatting with him like their issues never existed.

 

Then there was Luka, the guy that showed an interest in Bonnie, only the audience knew he had ulterior motives. I couldn't wait to see Bonnie's reaction when she found out. Only she finds out offscreen, so that great build up lead to nothing.

 

But if I look at it only as plot compared to the slow-burn set-up to ultimately introduce Klaus over Season 2 of TVD, I`d have to give the point to TVD. Easily.

 

And that was one of the things that I think didn't work. The build-up to this dangerous, powerful dude showing up was pretty good. But the "payoff" was a big disappointment, both in terms of the actual "show down," and what the Big Bad turned out to be like. (They kept telling me how scary and dangerous Klaus was, but I never felt it.) Which, in hindsight, makes the build up lose a lot of its power. Which happens when a big build up doesn't have a great payoff.

 

Compare to season three of Buffy. While they revealed the Big Bad early on, the build up to him becoming this thing they were afraid they wouldn't be able to deal with was great, and so was the showdown at the end of the season.

 

But when it was actually good, I did consider TVD the best plot-show out of everything else I watched on TV during that time. Which is why I would award it higher than guilty pleasure for those Seasons 1.5 - 2.

 

And I thought TVD's plots moved so fast that I didn't have time to really invest in them. At first, after watching lots of shows where things moved at a snail's pace, I loved that TVD moved at such a fast clip. But, by the end of season one, and on into season two, I was starting to see the downsides.

 

I don't like it when a show is too slow. (Like Smallville.) But, on the flip side, if a show moves too fast, like TVD sometimes does, things don't really have a chance to sink in or make much of an impression on me. So I guess I prefer a pace somewhere in the middle.

 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Jads]

So I carried on my re watch through S2 which I loved except the wolves barring Mason. I ffed through Rose ' s descent and Tyler ' s transformation both of which I felt went on too long and were too similar.

For shallow reasons, I particularly enjoy the first half of the season. Stefan and Damon spend a lot of time hanging out in the Lockwood garden and for some reason, the light makes them both look jaw droppingly gorgeous. I don't know if PW suddenly grew into his face or if he's playing Stefan as a bit more confident but when Katherine calls him sexy, I find myself nodding along. I'm all for Defan so the early episodes are FTW. There are a couple of little physical interactions which are great namely when Stefan cuffs Damon on the shoulder when admonishing him for getting Jeremy involved and when Damon is using Mason's phone to bait Katherine, Stefan is trying to wrestle it off him and he swats him away. They are such brotherly little gestures. I also love the scene in Elena 's bedroom where Damon tells her he loves her but has to let her go. I've always interpreted that as being as much about his relationship with Stefan as how he feels about Elena.

I'm still blown away by what a great job Nina does at differentiating between Katherine and Elena. I also think the rest of the cast do a great job of acting differently towards her.

I am now re watching S6 purely because I saw a lot of things in s2 which I think pay off in S6. Well that and the ret con of Elena being in love with Damon from s3 ep1.

[Writing Wrongs]

I binge-watched all 6 seasons on Netflix and 2 things that pop out to me:

 

1) Overuse of the word "dick"

 

2) Overuse of term "best friend". Can you have more than one?

[ByTor]

1) Overuse of the word "dick"

Off topic, but having watched "Felicity," Scott Speedman's character (Ben) made me never want to hear the word "dick" again!

[EternallyCharmed]

I think this is the place where we can express general opinions...? If not, I hope the mods will move or delete the post. I'm new here and still don't always know exactly what I'm doing! Some of these are unpopular, but I didn't find a UO thread. 

 

I never liked Stefan. This isn't a Damon vs Stefan fan war thing because I never liked Damon much either. But like someone else said Stefan is the quiet, intense brooder who I usually like on these shows except I don't feel like there's any of the emotional or intellectual depth I sense from those type of characters. He's just boring and annoying to me. I don't think the actor is good at all and don't find him attractive. Like I said, some of these are unpopular! I really wanted to like Stefan but just don't enjoy him at all. But then again I don't think much of Damon and the actor who plays him either. The only difference is that Damon at least sometimes amuses me. So you can tell that the love triangle was always my least favorite thing about the show. I actually like Elena when she's around almost anyone who's not Stefan or Damon. If she hadn't been trapped in the love triangle for so long I actually think I would have enjoyed the character a lot. 

 

I don't like Caroline with Klaus or with Stefan. I already explained my thoughts on Stefan, and the thing with Klaus is just creepy and toxic to me. I never liked her much with Tyler either.  I think the closest I came to liking any of her relationships was the one with Matt. 

 

I think Elijah and Klaus are much more fun to watch than the Salvatore brothers on this show and honestly wish it had been about them instead. I actually don't love them much on their own show but that's probably off topic. 

 

Katherine is obviously a terrible person or not person as the case may be, but I enjoyed her so much. She was one of my favorite things about the whole show. 

 

Jeremy annoyed me so much and I wish he had left the show sooner. And Bonnie x Jeremy felt so awkward. I didn't think they had any chemistry. 

 

I know people hate Elena but I thought her friendship with Caroline was well done. We got the sense that they competed but still loved each other when it came down to it. The actresses just have this way of interacting that makes their friendship feel believable to me. 

 

Some of the dialogue and plots are really underrated. I would never have stuck with this show if it was literally just all love triangle stuff all the time which I think is how some people think of it. It's much better than that, at least sometimes! 

 

I thought the best seasons were two and three. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by EternallyCharmed

[Coxfires]

I never found the show good either, but I will admit that it makes for a nice "leave your brain on the nighstand" evening. Admittedly, I watched all 3 first seasons, but lost interest after that and have seen only random bits here and there from S4 to now.

The thing is, even though I thought Nina Dobrev was a good actress, I just never liked Elena, and how people reacted around her. Her Special Snowflake Status, how her well-being always superseeded the one of any other character on the show, and how we were hammered with her "empathy", I just couldn't with it after S3. the Love triangle and Delena were the worst part of the show to me. 

The global treatment of women in the show is pretty horrendous too. Caroline being tortured has gotten old pretty fast, Bonnie is reduced to plot device, and that is just scratching the surface.

Now, about the characters forgiving each other, it is not like there is anything realistic to expect from any of them. They all are a big bunch of hypocrites, willing to call anyone "bad" when it suits them. As I said, I missed a lot, and Damon deserves more than his fair share of blame, but the rest of the characters have a strange habit of being two faced about him. He screwed them over times and again, they hate him and all have valid reasons to want to kill him/never see him again, but somehow, when there is a mess to clean, they go seek his help (well, it isn't worse than Bonnie, who is told repeatedly that she is expandable but is still expected to save them all and sacrifice herself for them). The show has this fantastic abiity to have the characters whitewash each other in a blink while still blaming them at the same time. That is hell of a conundrum.

For instance, my memory is fuzzy, but I remember one episode where Elena was telling Damon he was the most horrendous person ever and blahblah fishcakes, prompting him to leave, but later was all "where were you Damon" when he wasn't there to save her precious ass. In a way, she was right: Damon did try to kill her, her firends, and her brother, so she has every right to hate him. But at the same time, he should rescue her after she told him to go eff himself? Errr...okay....

An other example is when the "kids" were lighting candles in the memory of dead people, blaming Damon for Jenna, Mason and other people's deaths, but incidentally never mentionned that Stefan killed Andie and such. This bipolarity towards the character is exhausting: either you hate him and part ways, or you acknowledge him for what he is and don't act all offended when he screws up, since it is what he does.

The most enjoyable part of the show has always been the brothers dynamic to me, which is why I decided to try again in S7. Unfortunately, the show squandered its opportunities with Lilly, Bonnie still has no storyline of her own, Enzo has no point, and the huntress is disappointing. But the worst is that once more, we are stuck with Stefan being "the good" brother and Damon being a worthless D-bag. But since I'm masochistic, I'll watch till the end of this season this time, maybe there is a tiny hope that things will evolve, who knows?

[TigerLynx]

The writers should have left the triangle in the past with Damon/Katherine/Stefan.  Damon's motivation should have been wanting to rebuild his relationship with his brother.  Damon stays in MF because of Stefan.  Stefan loves Elena, so Damon will do anything to help Stefan protect her.  Elena cares about her family and friends, so Damon helps protect them, and they tolerate Damon for Stefan/Elena.  Damon also has his friendships with Alaric, Liz, and Carol.

[Coxfires]

doram, I agree with what you say generally, and, as I said, I do think that Damon screwed it up for the characters once too many. But the fact that he screws up doesn't take away the fact that others do, but tend to forget. Stefan didn't have to kill Andie, he just did it because he could. It is an easy cop out to pull out the "Ripper" card.

 

and if you go by the logic

the only reason why Damon was dying again was because he screwed up Elijah's plan to save Elena. Which, by the way, also ended up in the deaths of John and Jenna. It really all circled back to Damon.

 

 

then in this case everything is Stefan's fault for not letting Damon die in the first place and making him transition when all he wanted was to die. Just like Stefan didn't have to become a Ripper for Klaus when Damon was bitten by Tyler. It is hypocritical to fault Damon for wanting to save Elena again her consent (and the consaquences) when others have done exactly just the same by saving him when he didn't want to. (although, if we push further, in retrospect, everything is Katherine's fault)

 

To be clear: this is not a Damon vs Stefan I am doing. I think everyone should have staked Damon years ago, he deserves it a thousand times. But just because he deserves it doesn't mean any other character is a saint or has never faulted. Yet, in S7, we are stuck in a black and white status of "Bad Damon" " Good Stefan", where all characters moan about how awful he is where poor Stefan endures him, while, in reality, the facts are mode complicated than that. The shows "tells" things but they do not align with it "shows".

[TigerLynx]

If we go back and blame Damon, then Katherine that leads to it being Klaus' fault, then Esther and Mikal's fault for turning their children into Original Vampires, and then Silas' fault, etc., so on and so on.

[Coxfires]

That is what I meant : applying that logic doesn't work

[miss-vanilla]

Everyone has personal accountability for the choices THEY make. If Stefan chooses to save Damon then that is Stefans choice, and he has to be accountable for the decisions he makes thereafter since Damon did not want or ask Stefan to do this for him.

Stefan did turn Damon, that is true, but everything Damon did and chose to do after that is on Damon, not Stefan, or Katherine.

Often these characters are put into situations when they feel forced into making a decision they wouldn't normally make, but ultimately, time and again, each and everyone of them have proven that they will do unspeakable things to save each other instead of probably doing the morally "right" thing and let their loved one die. They all have a choice though, and they are each accountable for them.

The hypocrisy in the storytelling is that Damon is the only one considered bad and selfish for making those kind decisions, perhaps because he rarely bothers to mitigate them to himself or to others.

For example, Ric recently tried to bring back his dead wife with a stone that Bonnie told him to destroy because it was evil. He did without knowing what the consequences would be, because he didn't care about that, he just wanted what he wanted. Yet  Damon is hauled over the coals in the narrative for wanting to protect the town from the evil heretics because Elenas coffin was there. Bearing in mind, the town was only at risk because Stefan and Caroline started a war they couldn't finish.

Lily is crucifying Damon for wanting desperately to keep Elena safe, blaming him for putting her in danger, just as she is planning on resurrecting her DEAD boyfriend, and after she made a deal with the devil to get her "family" back that she could not bear to live without. Hypocrite much?

Caroline selfishly turned off her own humanity because she didn't want to feel the grief of losing her mother despite witnessing how terribly vampires without their humanity behave.

Stefan chose turn off his humanity to save another Salvatore, knowing exactly what he is capable of when he does.

Stefan went on a couple of suicide missions to kill Julian to fulfill his revenge, dragging Damon down with him.

None of this is acknowledged at all in the narrative, and the word selfish or bad is never uttered in their direction.

This current narrative seems to be saying that everyone else can have a self serving agenda, but Damon can't.

[miss-vanilla]

@doram.

 

Basically Kai snapped. Which we're actually told in the episode, when he made that creepy video for Bonnie to watch, and later by Lily in s7. How does it even make sense that Kai was threatened by Jo's twins? There's an episode where he told her she was pregnant, then wished her a happy life. If he was so worried about her pregnancy why didn't he just snap her neck with magic the moment he found out? Jo wasn't interested in their coven, or bringing her children into the coven. Didn't she even tell Alaric that she was afraid that the coven will try to take the twins from her by force?

 

Yes he did, and that's why he cooked up the plan with Lily to link Bonnie and Elena..

The coven had nothing to do with that, so why did he kill them? The coven mean nothing to Damon and Bonnie, in the big scheme of things that would be of no consequence to them specifically.

The coven had to die because as long as they survived, they would always be trying to find a way to remove him, like they did before. 

Kai might not have been interested any longer in being the leader of the coven, but he wanted to live and he wanted revenge. His post merge conscience was probably a lingering consequence of the merge that dissipated over time. 

Kai didn't have the means to kill the coven before. Turning into a heretic gave him the means to kill the coven and save himself. 

[miss-vanilla]

Doram I agree with you re the Kat, Rebekah and probably many others scenarios, but these were "outside" characters and the story is being told from the POV of the MF gang, however, Damon is a main character, and we are in S7 of a show where the narrative for him has been of a similar ilk mostly, and has been ramped up this season to beyond ridiculous levels.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t see where the narrative is going with this sudden "Damon is at fault for literally everything in the history of ever" shtick. And if everyone`s lifes were so wonderful for the last three years when he was gone, why isn`t at least his choice to remove himself by desiccation praised as the right thing? How can he be wrong to be in their lifes and wrong to not be in it at the same time? Like, seriously, show, what is he supposed to do that is the right choice?

 

Normally, I can see where the writing is going with something. I might not like it or I might not agree with the message but at least I can understand it. What is the message right now? Damon being in people`s lifes is screwing it up and he never brings anything positive to a relationship ever. Even friends and family are just so much happier without him.

 

Okay, aside from being overly harsh and overly one-sided, the only lesson the character should learn or take from this is that he should kill himself or at the very least leave everyone else alone. But he tried that already and the message is: that wasn`t right either.  So, I feel the character can not learn or grow from this. As a result, watching it is just miserable and pointless.  

 

Damon is stuck being wrong and the other characters are stuck in their self-imposed martyrdom. Neither one is endearing.     

[TigerLynx]

I blame the writers because they wrote scenarios for these characters that they never bothered to explore.  It was all have character A do one thing, character B do something else, and character C do something completely OOC to move the plot along, and then everyone forgets about it, and they move onto the next SL.  It left all the characters under developed and removed all character growth in order to service the next SL.

 

I wish they had explored the friendships and family connections more instead of just the romantic relationships.  There was a nice scene when Liz was dying, Damon was visiting her (this was before they found out that for whatever idiotic reason vampire blood couldn't cure cancer/tumor even though it can cure everything else), other people were there, and Damon was asked why he hadn't given Liz vampire blood.  Damon said because Liz hadn't asked him to.  Damon genuinely liked and respected Liz.

[miss-vanilla]

 

@Doram.

Firstly, none of that explains killing Jo's twins because they threatened his power if he was going to kill the coven anyway. Secondly, nothing of the merge dissipates over the time - Joshua makes this very clear to the twins when he's explaining it to them that the effects of the merge are permanent and that the person that emerges post-merge is essentially a distillation of the twins.

 

Then please explain to me why Kai wanted to kill the coven? If Kai was a merge of Luke and himself, he never would have wanted to kill Jo or Liv. He couldn't kill Liv before, even when he really wanted too, and he wanted to make amends with Jo. Please don't tell me it's because Damon and Bonnie left him in the PW, because that does not track at all, not in my mind, so we will have to leave this one be.

[miss-vanilla]

No part of Luke that exists in Kai would ever kill his coven or sister, period.

[TigerLynx]

But Kai after he merged with Luke, did kill his sister and the coven.  The writers can't be bothered to write the characters or the mythology consistently, and it leaves the viewers trying to figure out the how and why.

 

It's the same kind of flip flopping that left us with, "You can't be a witch and a vampire, until you can."  "You can't be a vampire and a werewolf.  It's an abomination."  Except that nature had nothing to do with suppressing Klaus' werewolf side.  Esther did that with magic.  Just like Mikal and Esther turned their children into vampires using magic, and then decided they needed to kill them because they were monsters.  Esther's plan was to link her children, turn them human, and then kill them.  Why didn't Esther just turn them human, along with all their vampire lines, and give them a chance to have a human life?

 

It's no wonder the characters end up going in circles, doing stupid things, and making the same mistakes over and over again.

Edited April 17, 2016 by TigerLynx

[formerlyfreedom]

Please refer to our Golden Rule. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you can't agree to disagree, that will be a problem.