S05.E02: The Real Me

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; A great tribute to writers and cast that Dawn really does seem to fit right in, as though she's always been there. Harmony also gets a chance to shine and I do love the silent ballet of breakfast in the Summer's house.

The Bad; Nothing bad, just not as good as some other eps.

Best line; Dawn; "I could totally save the world if someone handed me superpowers" (one day Dawnie, one day) also like; Xander; "Is that Brad Konig? Not so tough now as when you were beating up kids in gym class?" Brad (giving him the finger) "Screw you Harris!"-High school's over, Brad's a vampire but some things never change.

Women good/men bad; Harmony accuses Xander of being a hair puller and 'a big girl'. On the plus side she tells Spike to drop dead.

Jeez!; The murder of another magic shop owner, not a sight Dawn should see. Also the sight of poor Dawn terrified by the insane guy is upsetting.

Kinky dinky; Dawn has a crush on Xander and wears a dress very reminiscent of the one Kate wore in 'Sense and Sensitivity'. Buffy's backless top is also worthy of note. One of Harmony's gang asks her when they're going to 'do it'? Harmony is appalled, odd she wasn't that bashful with Spike. Another of her gang is considered 'sire-whipped' but one presumes not literally so? Dawn thinks that the Slayer should wear a cool costume Wonder Woman style, if only! (I think my favourite Calvin and Hobbes joke is where Calvin writes in his school report that his mother puts on a patriotic leotard, cape and thigh boots and fights crime in her spare time. "Wow, show me that outfit some time!" remarks his dad). Riley claims that saying to parents "I'm here to violate your first born" never goes down well (unless your parents are Satanists or something?). Buffy likes George Clooney who was 40 at this stage, once again showing her penchant for older men.

Captain Subtext; Dawn resents Anya because she has Xander. She once confessed to Joyce that she'd like Tara and Willow to teach her the things they do together whereupon Joyce got 'very quiet' and made her go upstairs (Dawillta?). Now in last weeks ep Joyce didn't seem to know about them so has Dawn actually changed the past rather than just everyone's memories? Tara's little guilty look when Willow tells her she's one of the good guys is priceless. Xander refers to his 'master' Dracula and Riley is still a little jealous of Buffy's lingering attraction to him. Spike refers to Buffy as a dish. Buffy also expresses her wish to still curl up in Joyce's lap (as she did in Innocence), still revelling in maternal love and jealous of little sis Dawn getting all the attention from Joyce.

Guantanamo Bay; Spike gets another Buffybeating

Scoobies to the ER; Poor Anya get's bashed up.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Dawn is in the show 5 minutes and is already chained to the wall. Although she won't officially join for at least another season she has all the makings of a Scooby right there. Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Anya Buffy: 15 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 2 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: Buffy: 4 more vamps for Buffy

Questions and observations; The great introduction for Dawn, at this stage we have no idea what she is and we don't know if she has any idea either. MT is so cute, she's just adorable, no wonder she made so much money from advertisements. Her top makes her look like one of the science officers from Star Trek. And the love between Joyce, Buffy and Dawn is terrific, so palpable yet not too twee, comes across as realistic rather than OTT Hollywood ideal family. We also here have a radical shift in how Willow and Tara dress, they look like they're going to some sort of folk festival or something. And Harmony once again proves her comedy value. Tom Lenk

Spoiler

who'll eventually play Andrew

 appears here as an unnamed vamp. Again, would the Scoobies know what Spinal Tap was? (I had to look it up). Once again Will finds the dead body. Why don't the vamps just set fire to Buffy's house? Although it makes sense for the vamps to keep Dawn alive so that they have a hostage if things go wrong. Dawn portends that Buffy doesn't know who she is, we don't know at this stage if Dawn is aware of what she is? Surely unicorns are a symbol of good? Interesting commentary that SMG finds it hard to laugh on cue?

Marks out of 10; 7/10

[Halting Hex]

You can tell Dawn is meant to be younger than she is; that scene with her getting the ice cream all over her face in front of her crush is just cringeworthy.  Even within the episode, Dawn went to all the trouble to primp for Xander, why would she look so gross in front of him?

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Again, would the Scoobies know what Spinal Tap was? (I had to look it up)

Clearly the Scoobs are better educated than you are then.  (Sorry.). A Classic is a Classic is a Classic.  This is Spinal Tap goes to 11.

And let's face it, it's not as though they didn't know about things like what happened to the drummers in their own lives.

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Best line; Xander; "Is that Brad Konig? Not so tough now as when you were beating up kids in gym class?" Brad (giving him the finger) "Screw you Harris!"-High school's over, Brad's a vampire but some things never change.

Oh, great, now Harmony's minions are destroying canon just the same way Harmony herself does.  To paraphrase Giles about Jesse, Xander isn't looking at Brad, he's looking at the thing that killed him.  And it's so gross that Xander is acting as if Brad deserved to be killed because Brad used to be a dick to him; the show used to mourn even the less-than-sympathetic characters, like the Rodney Munsons of the world.  (Not to mention the part where Vamp!Brad probably went home and killed his whole family, as vampires like to do.)

On the plus side, at least he's not having another fucking slapfight, the way he did the last time he met Harmony.  But even so.

Riley's fun in the episode ("Not the invasion of Normandy, but still a plan") and Anya with the Game of Life is a classic.  But most of the episode is just Buffy whining some more, again, and a lot of pointless misdirection.  

Spoiler

Yes, Tara flinches at Willow's "you're one of the good guys" line because she's hiding her "demon" secret…but it turns out she's just a redneck.  And while there certainly will be a reveal on Dawn, it doesn't have jack to do with her portentous diary entries.  Dawn herself doesn't actually have a clue.  

So it's just a lot of empty wind, in the end.  And do we really need an entire episode to tell us that Giles has decided to buy the magic shop?  You could have done that reveal with one line, FFS.  It's bad enough when Whedon and Espenson's scripts were terminally flaccid; now they're infecting David Fury, too.

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Bad; Nothing bad, just not as good as some other eps.

Well, not staking mega-annoying Harmony was bad. Very-very bad.

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

You can tell Dawn is meant to be younger than she is; that scene with her getting the ice cream all over her face in front of her crush is just cringeworthy.  Even within the episode, Dawn went to all the trouble to primp for Xander, why would she look so gross in front of him?

That was the intention, I guess. She was Dawnie, the cliched younger sibling. They wanted to stress her childishness (she was clueless and didn't know she shouldn't act in front of her... crush that way. Poor Xander. Not only a demon magnet, but almost-paedophile). What still bugs me in all this is why in the world someone had to babysit the 14-years-old teenager? She couldn't take care of herself for those few hours home alone? Some gals her age go on a dates or even have their first times, you know... 10-yers-old babe in the body of a 14-years-old, my goodness.

Then there was one particular conversation between the "couple of the season".

Quote

WILLOW: She'll be okay.
TARA: It's just ... I, I think it's tough for her, not being able to ... well, allowed to, you know, help.

WILLOW: Help?
TARA: Oh, you. You guys. The slayer circle.
WILLOW: Well, Buffy doesn't really need ... a-and I think Dawn's a little young.
TARA: I-I know, you're right. It's just hard. That outsider feeling.

WILLOW: Tara ... you're not an outsider.
TARA: Well, yeah. I kinda am.
WILLOW: No, you're not.
TARA: Willow, it's okay. Where does this go?

If you wanna talk about "that outsider feeling", Tara, baby, then you can, you know, go for a beer with Xander. He can share almost year-long experience in that regard and he can understand. At least, better then Willow, who was always desperately needed in the gang and elswhere (dating guitarist, teaching computer classes, tutoring basketball star - what can be a better proof of actual belonging?).

And then there was a moment I nearly started screaming obscenities uncontrollably.

Quote

WILLOW: Somebody making you feel uncomfortable? Is it Xander? It's Xander, isn't it?
TARA: No, Xander's a sweetie.
WILLOW: It's Giles! It's 'cause he's ... British and doesn't understand about stuff.
TARA: It's no one. You guys all just have this really tight bond. It's-it's hard to break into that. And I'm not even sure I want to.

WILLOW: I'm sure. You're completely one of the gang now. Everyone accepts that.

You little...
Why of all people did it have to be Xander making precious Tara feel "uncomfortable", dammit? What a "good" friend you are, Willow Rosenberg. Bah. And in which way could he make Tara feel uncomfortable exactly?? We didn't see much of a T/X communication throughout Tara's stint in the series after all. Willow, Tara and Buffy spent considerable portion of their time at freakin' college with no Xander in sight (he was too dumb to walk those halls, don't you remember?). Then Willow and Tara spent more and more time together at the dorm, practicing witchcraft and making each other feel comfortable. While Xander (due to writer's intent) had to spend lots of time tiptoeing around or satisfying his hellbitch. I don't see that many ways he could terrorize poor Tara and make her feel like an outcast in the gang (Xander was no Cordelia, you know). And Giles??? G-Man had a crush on shy and smart girls (almost adored Willow at SHS).

Therefore just another opportunity for the writers to portray Xander as a jerk and constant pain in the gang's collective ass.

Spoiler

And it turned to worse in the following episode.

Edited September 12, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

I just assumed that Willow thought Tara would be uncomfortable around a guy, because of the whole "lesbian" thing.  And she hero-worships Giles, so her thoughts went to Xander, first.  (She knows Tara and Riley are on good terms, given that Riley used to hang around the Lesbian Alliance and they knew him by name.). Sucks if you're Xander, but someone had to draw the short straw.

Also, perhaps this is a sideways shot at Anya, whom Willow herself still can't stand.  Not impossible, I suppose.

21 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

What still bugs me in all this is why in the world someone had to babysit the 14-years-old teenager? She couldn't take care of herself for those few hours home alone?

Indeed, the episode itself addresses this:

Quote

DAWN: Babysitter?! I'm fourteen! I'm old enough to be a babysitter.

But, as I've written before, shining a light on the nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsensical.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Also, perhaps this is a sideways shot at Anya, whom Willow herself still can't stand.

Reasonable explanation and it's fine with me. Although calling a spade a spade (a hellbitch a bitch) would be a little more appropriate IMO (Xander couldn't be held responsible for Anya's stupidity or faux pas, since Willow and the others were totally okay with her hanging around). For example, I couldn't stand Oz for the most part of his involvement with the SG (still can't stand him actually), but if it was, say, me as a character in season 3 or 4, I would never suggest his significant other making my close friend or love interest feel uncomfortable. So no "Is it Willow? It's Willow, isn't it?" from me.
 

Spoiler

Again a better backstory for Tara was needed and a closer look at her home situation. I remember coming across a fanfic where Tara revealed Donny molested her when she was a teen.

 

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

For God's sake, Xander has years of history with Buffy and Willow, they have been close, fighting demons and shit.

Correction. They were close back at high school. After graduating? Not so much (X still hanged around with B & W time after time, but it was mainly because due to writers ineptitude he couldn't have other normal friends his age. Apart from B/W who were getting sucked deeper into college life, his only options were either Anya or Giles. And both of them sucked). If Veruca happened around season 2, there wouldn't be just Buffy and Oz trying to protect Willow from the Wolfgirl, but Buffy, Oz and Xander. Before Oz departed Xander was as far from our girls' brave new world of college freshmen as opposite ends of the earth (not physically, but in terms of emotions or experience). Maybe that was natural, because it's hard to preserve your friendship the way it was at school after largely parting ways post-graduation, but still...
 

 

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Comparing Tara's feeling of being outsider with him being insecure for a year is just like comparing apples to oranges

But Tara had a real power, remember (unlike the other guy)? Magic e.t.c. According to show's new (post-season 2) paradigm, that alone placed her way above Xander in terms of usefullness to the cause (it was highly unlikely for someone like Giles or Anya not to focus on that fact, considering Mr. Tweedy Pants' own "Willow is much, much better than you" remark addressing Xander in Dopplegangland). Tara had her reasons to feel like being outsider and so did Xander. Kinda soulmates thing. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

We didn't see much of a T/X communication throughout Tara's stint in the series after all.

It still amazes me how Tara and Xander managed a grand total of

Spoiler

one conversation one on one (IIRC). Talk about a missed opportunity and not bothering to explore character interactions.

 

Real Me has plenty of fun moments ("I guess her generation isn't cool with witchcraft") but like most of S5, I can only enjoy it on a more superficial level, the bad guys and the premise are just too silly. Dawn is quite literally too dumb to live.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It still amazes me how Tara and Xander managed a grand total of

  Hide contents

one conversation one on one (IIRC). Talk about a missed opportunity and not bothering to explore character interactions.

And it's even more amazing considering all that NC-17 fanfiction involving the two.

Spoiler

Probably, writers didn't want Tara to spend too much time one on one with any guy due to the Lesbian Street Cred factor. I guess the only guy (well, I don't think we can call him a "guy", but...) she was allowed to sort of flirt or show some playfullness with was none other than Spike ("A muscle cramp? In your ... pants?"). Only if he was around Tara could think for a microsecond about "cramps" in guy's pants.

Edited September 12, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Dawn is quite literally too dumb to live.

Spoiler

She was a "rebel without a brain" for most of the season.

[Melancholy]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I just assumed that Willow thought Tara would be uncomfortable around a guy, because of the whole "lesbian" thing.  And she hero-worships Giles, so her thoughts went to Xander, first.  (She knows Tara and Riley are on good terms, given that Riley used to hang around the Lesbian Alliance and they knew him by name.). Sucks if you're Xander, but someone had to draw the short straw.

Also, perhaps this is a sideways shot at Anya, whom Willow herself still can't stand.  Not impossible, I suppose.

Spoiler

Yup, we also later learn that Tara had a particularly bad history with *men*. That's one of the main take-aways from Family- the Maclay men oppressed the Maclay women. But you don't even need that later reveal to have a suspicion that men intimidate a skittish, shy woman like Tara. 

 

I feel really sure that if Willow was bashing people in the Scoobies for being socially grotesque, she would have started with bashing Anya directly. Long before she got to Xander and especially Giles. This really feels like a guy-bias than a Xander/Giles bias.  

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

You can tell Dawn is meant to be younger than she is; that scene with her getting the ice cream all over her face in front of her crush is just cringeworthy.  Even within the episode, Dawn went to all the trouble to primp for Xander, why would she look so gross in front of him?

Clearly the Scoobs are better educated than you are then.  (Sorry.). A Classic is a Classic is a Classic.  This is Spinal Tap goes to 11.

And let's face it, it's not as though they didn't know about things like what happened to the drummers in their own lives.

Oh, great, now Harmony's minions are destroying canon just the same way Harmony herself does.  To paraphrase Giles about Jesse, Xander isn't looking at Brad, he's looking at the thing that killed him.  And it's so gross that Xander is acting as if Brad deserved to be killed because Brad used to be a dick to him; the show used to mourn even the less-than-sympathetic characters, like the Rodney Munsons of the world.  (Not to mention the part where Vamp!Brad probably went home and killed his whole family, as vampires like to do.)

On the plus side, at least he's not having another fucking slapfight, the way he did the last time he met Harmony.  But even so.

Riley's fun in the episode ("Not the invasion of Normandy, but still a plan") and Anya with the Game of Life is a classic.  But most of the episode is just Buffy whining some more, again, and a lot of pointless misdirection.  

  Hide contents

Yes, Tara flinches at Willow's "you're one of the good guys" line because she's hiding her "demon" secret…but it turns out she's just a redneck.  And while there certainly will be a reveal on Dawn, it doesn't have jack to do with her portentous diary entries.  Dawn herself doesn't actually have a clue.  

So it's just a lot of empty wind, in the end.  And do we really need an entire episode to tell us that Giles has decided to buy the magic shop?  You could have done that reveal with one line, FFS.  It's bad enough when Whedon and Espenson's scripts were terminally flaccid; now they're infecting David Fury, too.

I know about it but I've never actually seen it. Xander doesn't think Brad deserved it but he wouldn't be human if he didn't feel a little satisfaction, Brad was obviously a jerk even before he was a vamp. I doubt most vamps target their family, that was Angelus' thing (and Penn).  

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, not staking mega-annoying Harmony was bad. Very-very bad.

 

That was the intention, I guess. She was Dawnie, the cliched younger sibling. They wanted to stress her childishness (she was clueless and didn't know she shouldn't act in front of her... crush that way. Poor Xander. Not only a demon magnet, but almost-paedophile). What still bugs me in all this is why in the world someone had to babysit the 14-years-old teenager? She couldn't take care of herself for those few hours home alone? Some gals her age go on a dates or even have their first times, you know... 10-yers-old babe in the body of a 14-years-old, my goodness.

Then there was one particular conversation between the "couple of the season".

If you wanna talk about "that outsider feeling", Tara, baby, then you can, you know, go for a beer with Xander. He can share almost year-long experience in that regard and he can understand. At least, better then Willow, who was always desperately needed in the gang and elswhere (dating guitarist, teaching computer classes, tutoring basketball star - what can be a better proof of actual belonging?).

And then there was a moment I nearly started screaming obscenities uncontrollably.

You little...
Why of all people did it have to be Xander making precious Tara feel "uncomfortable", dammit? What a "good" friend you are, Willow Rosenberg. Bah. And in which way could he make Tara feel uncomfortable exactly?? We didn't see much of a T/X communication throughout Tara's stint in the series after all. Willow, Tara and Buffy spent considerable portion of their time at freakin' college with no Xander in sight (he was too dumb to walk those halls, don't you remember?). Then Willow and Tara spent more and more time together at the dorm, practicing witchcraft and making each other feel comfortable. While Xander (due to writer's intent) had to spend lots of time tiptoeing around or satisfying his hellbitch. I don't see that many ways he could terrorize poor Tara and make her feel like an outcast in the gang (Xander was no Cordelia, you know). And Giles??? G-Man had a crush on shy and smart girls (almost adored Willow at SHS).

Therefore just another opportunity for the writers to portray Xander as a jerk and constant pain in the gang's collective ass.

  Reveal hidden contents

And it turned to worse in the following episode.

How can you not love Harmony? She's a kick in the head. In normal circumstances 14 would be too old for a babysitter but this is Sunnydale and Buffy's the Slayer which makes her a target as this ep proves. I don't think Dawn acts too childishly, she's the baby and Joyce and Buffy keep her that way deliberately, their little pet who they want to protect from the big bad (literally) world.  

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Reasonable explanation and it's fine with me. Although calling a spade a spade (a hellbitch a bitch) would be a little more appropriate IMO (Xander couldn't be held responsible for Anya's stupidity or faux pas, since Willow and the others were totally okay with her hanging around). For example, I couldn't stand Oz for the most part of his involvement with the SG (still can't stand him actually), but if it was, say, me as a character in season 3 or 4, I would never suggest his significant other making my close friend or love interest feel uncomfortable. So no "Is it Willow? It's Willow, isn't it?" from me.
 

  Hide contents

Again a better backstory for Tara was needed and a closer look at her home situation. I remember coming across a fanfic where Tara revealed Donny molested her when she was a teen.

 

Correction. They were close back at high school. After graduating? Not so much (X still hanged around with B & W time after time, but it was mainly because due to writers ineptitude he couldn't have other normal friends his age. Apart from B/W who were getting sucked deeper into college life, his only options were either Anya or Giles. And both of them sucked). If Veruca happened around season 2, there wouldn't be just Buffy and Oz trying to protect Willow from the Wolfgirl, but Buffy, Oz and Xander. Before Oz departed Xander was as far from our girls' brave new world of college freshmen as opposite ends of the earth (not physically, but in terms of emotions or experience). Maybe that was natural, because it's hard to preserve your friendship the way it was at school after largely parting ways post-graduation, but still...
 

 

But Tara had a real power, remember (unlike the other guy)? Magic e.t.c. According to show's new (post-season 2) paradigm, that alone placed her way above Xander in terms of usefullness to the cause (it was highly unlikely for someone like Giles or Anya not to focus on that fact, considering Mr. Tweedy Pants' own "Willow is much, much better than you" remark addressing Xander in Dopplegangland). Tara had her reasons to feel like being outsider and so did Xander. Kinda soulmates thing. 

Yuck, hasn't she suffered enough? Can we avoid one hillbilly cliché?

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It still amazes me how Tara and Xander managed a grand total of

  Hide contents

one conversation one on one (IIRC). Talk about a missed opportunity and not bothering to explore character interactions.

 

Real Me has plenty of fun moments ("I guess her generation isn't cool with witchcraft") but like most of S5, I can only enjoy it on a more superficial level, the bad guys and the premise are just too silly. Dawn is quite literally too dumb to live.

I'd have liked more Tara/Xander moments, always fun when you have two characters who don't normally interact have some private time together. And Dawnie is the greatest.  

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

And it's even more amazing considering all that NC-17 fanfiction involving the two.

  Hide contents

Probably, writers didn't want Tara to spend too much time one on one with any guy due to the Lesbian Street Cred factor. I guess the only guy (well, I don't think we can call him a "guy", but...) she was allowed to sort of flirt or show some playfullness with was none other than Spike ("A muscle cramp? In your ... pants?"). Only if he was around Tara could think for a microsecond about "cramps" in guy's pants.

 

I must say I haven't read any even though I was a serious fic addict back in the day. Plenty of Tara (and Dawn) 'deflowering' stories though. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

  Hide contents

She was a "rebel without a brain" for most of the season.

She was a young girl in a big bad world, give her a break.

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

  Hide contents

Yup, we also later learn that Tara had a particularly bad history with *men*. That's one of the main take-aways from Family- the Maclay men oppressed the Maclay women. But you don't even need that later reveal to have a suspicion that men intimidate a skittish, shy woman like Tara. 

 

I feel really sure that if Willow was bashing people in the Scoobies for being socially grotesque, she would have started with bashing Anya directly. Long before she got to Xander and especially Giles. This really feels like a guy-bias than a Xander/Giles bias.  

Absolutely! But Tara and Anya always got on really well. 

[lembergwatcher]

No matter how cute or sweet lil' Dawnie was, her introduction into Buffy narrative occured in the worst possible way, eventually un-writing all the previous seasons and drastically changing the Scooby Gang's dynamics

Spoiler

(i. e. ending the old gang as we knew it).

[Joe Hellandback]

18 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

No matter how cute or sweet lil' Dawnie was, her introduction into Buffy narrative occured in the worst possible way, eventually un-writing all the previous seasons and drastically changing the Scooby Gang's dynamics

  Hide contents

(i. e. ending the old gang as we knew it).

Not ending it, expanding it. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

It did not really unwrite all the previous seasons.

It did. Because forcing mystically created Dawnie down the Scoobs' throats meant altering their memories. Therefore most of what we saw in the four previous seasons wasn't exactly the same in Buffy's and her friends' minds. What are we supposed to think regarding the pre-Dawn years if all of a sudden we discover the Scoobies remember those same events in a different way from now on? 

[Halting Hex]

Actually, we don't know what was rewritten and what was completely unwritten.   Butterfly effect and all that.

Did Dawn scream so hard after seeing Angel "feeding" on Joyce in Angel that she was traumatized for weeks afterwards, and the Bangel affair never happened?

Did Angel never lose his soul due to Buffy-muffy, and the Angelus reign of terror was never a thing?  (Spike and Dru dug up Acathla, but without Angel there to think of torturing Giles, Spike just gives up about the "big rock" and leaves Dru periodically cooing over it.). Maybe Jenny just left town once she got a better gig?

Did Buffy never run away?  Did Kendra just get killed on a routine patrol?  

Who knows what, exactly?  And how can we tell?

It's a madhouse, a madhouse!  Cats and dogs, living together…

[lembergwatcher]

And the reason for unwriting/rewriting four previous seasons just to pull Dawnie out of Joss' hat  was... ? Things would have been considerably different from 1997 to 2000 if lil' sis was around back then. Buffy's life would have been significantly different if apart from slaying and school she had a younger sibling to take care of, to literally protect from the world outside.
 

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Everything that happened still happened.

The thing is we don't know for sure. Would Buffy the loving elder sister stay out of Sunnydale for the whole summer without writing or making a call if she knew 11-years-old Dawnie was home waiting for her? What if Dawnie found out about Buffy's destiny and told Mrs. Summers before Buffy herself did it? And where Dawn could be when Kralik came to Revello Drive?

It wasn't that easy to just put Dawn in the pre-season 5 Buffyverse and pretend it had always been that way...

Edited September 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Ted

- Becoming Part Two

- Dead Man's Party

- Band Candy

- Gingerbread

- This Year's Girl

Don't forget Inca Mummy Girl, Helpless, BB&B, Halloween, and Enemies.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Rumor has it, Dawn was at Janice's house at a sleepover. ;)

At age 10?  Possible, I suppose, but Joyce seems as though she'd keep the strings a little tighter.

As for the others, it's meant to be a sequence of events, not random points.  So, yes, most of the S2 vampire drama was away from where Dawn would have been, but my hypothesis is that Buffy breaks up with Angel in Angel, because not only is she pissed about the possible "attack" on Joyce, but with Dawn having had a major scare, she realizes that it's just not going to work.  And with Angel not giving Buffy her "birthday present" in Surprise, the rest of S2 takes a different turn.

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Again, Kendra was never at the Summers house. Why would her death change?

Well, she can't die in an Angelus-planned attack on the Library, because in this scenario, there is no Angelus roaming free.  However she must die at some point,

Spoiler

because we see in S7 that Faith has become a Slayer

so the question isn't whether Kendra still dies but merely when.

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

What was so different from the Scoobie Gang in S5-7 from what came and developed before?

The fact that they didn't love and trust and connect to each other on the same fundamental level as before?  The fact the Buffy's first loyalty wasn't to her friends, but to her "sister"?  That Buffy fucking kills herself over a "girl" who shouldn't even be there?  That Willow becomes co-dependent on Tara because her BFF isn't her BFF any more?  Little things like that.

But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

Spoiler

Only after watching the ep for the second time I did notice that Cyrus, the Harmony's minion, looked suspiciously like Andrew's twin brother.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:07 PM, lembergwatcher said:

It did. Because forcing mystically created Dawnie down the Scoobs' throats meant altering their memories. Therefore most of what we saw in the four previous seasons wasn't exactly the same in Buffy's and her friends' minds. What are we supposed to think regarding the pre-Dawn years if all of a sudden we discover the Scoobies remember those same events in a different way from now on? 

I think there is a comic which shows how Dawn altered things, she changes stuff  but not to the degree that Jenny Calendar is going to walk to through the door, it's just superficial.  

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:21 PM, Halting Hex said:

Actually, we don't know what was rewritten and what was completely unwritten.   Butterfly effect and all that.

Did Dawn scream so hard after seeing Angel "feeding" on Joyce in Angel that she was traumatized for weeks afterwards, and the Bangel affair never happened?

Did Angel never lose his soul due to Buffy-muffy, and the Angelus reign of terror was never a thing?  (Spike and Dru dug up Acathla, but without Angel there to think of torturing Giles, Spike just gives up about the "big rock" and leaves Dru periodically cooing over it.). Maybe Jenny just left town once she got a better gig?

Did Buffy never run away?  Did Kendra just get killed on a routine patrol?  

Who knows what, exactly?  And how can we tell?

It's a madhouse, a madhouse!  Cats and dogs, living together…

My cats and dogs live together, they sleep in the same basket. 

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:54 PM, lembergwatcher said:

And the reason for unwriting/rewriting four previous seasons just to pull Dawnie out of Joss' hat  was... ? Things would have been considerably different from 1997 to 2000 if lil' sis was around back then. Buffy's life would have been significantly different if apart from slaying and school she had a younger sibling to take care of, to literally protect from the world outside.
 

The thing is we don't know for sure. Would Buffy the loving elder sister stay out of Sunnydale for the whole summer without writing or making a call if she knew 11-years-old Dawnie was home waiting for her? What if Dawnie found out about Buffy's destiny and told Mrs. Summers before Buffy herself did it? And where Dawn could be when Kralik came to Revello Drive?

It wasn't that easy to just put Dawn in the pre-season 5 Buffyverse and pretend it had always been that way...

I always took it that Dawn was kidnapped with her mother but both Kralik and Faith. Personally wonder what she did with Ted and in Gingerbread? Yes, I think Buffy would still have run away although it's nice to see that Joyce would have Dawn to keep her company.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 1:52 AM, Halting Hex said:

At age 10?  Possible, I suppose, but Joyce seems as though she'd keep the strings a little tighter.

As for the others, it's meant to be a sequence of events, not random points.  So, yes, most of the S2 vampire drama was away from where Dawn would have been, but my hypothesis is that Buffy breaks up with Angel in Angel, because not only is she pissed about the possible "attack" on Joyce, but with Dawn having had a major scare, she realizes that it's just not going to work.  And with Angel not giving Buffy her "birthday present" in Surprise, the rest of S2 takes a different turn.

Well, she can't die in an Angelus-planned attack on the Library, because in this scenario, there is no Angelus roaming free.  However she must die at some point,

  Reveal hidden contents

because we see in S7 that Faith has become a Slayer

so the question isn't whether Kendra still dies but merely when.

The fact that they didn't love and trust and connect to each other on the same fundamental level as before?  The fact the Buffy's first loyalty wasn't to her friends, but to her "sister"?  That Buffy fucking kills herself over a "girl" who shouldn't even be there?  That Willow becomes co-dependent on Tara because her BFF isn't her BFF any more?  Little things like that.

But JMO.

But all the Scoobs are happy to die to for Dawn, that's why the monks made her the little sister, the most precious thing in the world to everyone. 

I remember Charmed actually brought in a young neighbour girl as part of the regular cast for a while but then rapidly dropped the idea. It did lead to one of the better jokes of the series, when she asks for help her with her biology homework Phoboe draws her a picture of an egg labelled 'us' and a sperm labelled 'them'.  

[Halting Hex]

Michael Collado, whom I've quoted elsewhere, has joking "theory" about this ep:

Quote

My initial reaction to it was mixed. On one hand, I knew that this made absolutely no sense to just retcon everything. But on the other (and of course this is just right after viewing Dawn’s first scene), I was growing in love with the idea that Buffy had this sister that was never acknowledged because of how self-centered Buffy can be sometimes, you know?

Heh.  Of course practically this wouldn't work (there are a good half-dozen eps that require serious rewriting to accommodate Dawn, plus Joyce specifically called Buffy "an only child" in Faith, Hope, and Trick), but it's amusing to posit that Dawn was actually there all along, but Little Miss Ego was so "me, me, me" that she just ignored little sis and the show never bothered to show what she was doing.  What's behind that extra door in the hallway?  Ah, just Buffy's little sister, ignore her…Buffy does. :)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:16 PM, Halting Hex said:

Michael Collado, whom I've quoted elsewhere, has joking "theory" about this ep:

Heh.  Of course practically this wouldn't work (there are a good half-dozen eps that require serious rewriting to accommodate Dawn, plus Joyce specifically called Buffy "an only child" in Faith, Hope, and Trick), but it's amusing to posit that Dawn was actually there all along, but Little Miss Ego was so "me, me, me" that she just ignored little sis and the show never bothered to show what she was doing.  What's behind that extra door in the hallway?  Ah, just Buffy's little sister, ignore her…Buffy does. :)

Also interesting given Cathy's comments in Living Conditions? I remember That 70s Show also had a similar issue with Donna's sisters?

[lembergwatcher]

If I were you, Will, I'd think twice before letting T/X interact too much 😉

Spoiler

Willow probably drew some conclusions and therefore we have only... what?.. one Xander/Tara scene throughout the two seasons. Tara OTOH must have noticed some kind of "unresolved sexual tension" between her lover and Xander, and tried to keep Willow steadily occupied for most of the time until Tabula Rasa. Funny how Willow's reference to the "umbilical cord" between X & A can be applied to her relationship with Tara either.

[Halting Hex]

To be fair to Spike, sometimes we might jump to conclusions that are…less fair to him. For example, I was thinking about the death of Mr. Bogarty, the magic shop owner, which happens off-camera in this episode.  And I thought back to the fate of the previous owner, the woman seen in Lovers Walk, who was not only killed by Spike but quite possibly a victim of necrophilia on his part.  And then I wondered if Spike might have had a go at Mr. Bogarty, since he can't currently rape the living (due to the Sodding Chip™), but a fresh kill means fresh "romance", right?

But fortunately for Spike, we not only see that it was in fact The Notorious Harmony Gang who plundered the (future?) Magic Box, but that Spike hadn't even known Harmony was in town at the time, so he couldn't have been riding shotgun to try and get first dibs on hot (but rapidly-cooling) Bogarty Buns. My apologies, Sparky.

Now whether Mort or Brad or Cyrus had a go, that we can't say.  But Spike's an innocent man.  Just the one Box-keeper for him; variety being the spice of Spike, it seems. 😉

Edited April 18, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Fair to S-s-spike?! No such thing!

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/20/2019 at 12:44 PM, lembergwatcher said:

If I were you, Will, I'd think twice before letting T/X interact too much 😉

  Hide contents

Willow probably drew some conclusions and therefore we have only... what?.. one Xander/Tara scene throughout the two seasons. Tara OTOH must have noticed some kind of "unresolved sexual tension" between her lover and Xander, and tried to keep Willow steadily occupied for most of the time until Tabula Rasa. Funny how Willow's reference to the "umbilical cord" between X & A can be applied to her relationship with Tara either.

That's an interesting question, did anyone ever tell Tara about Xillow? How would she feel about her love hanging around with her ex?

On 4/18/2020 at 5:04 AM, Halting Hex said:

To be fair to Spike, sometimes we might jump to conclusions that are…less fair to him. For example, I was thinking about the death of Mr. Bogarty, the magic shop owner, which happens off-camera in this episode.  And I thought back to the fate of the previous owner, the woman seen in Lovers Walk, who was not only killed by Spike but quite possibly a victim of necrophilia on his part.  And then I wondered if Spike might have had a go at Mr. Bogarty, since he can't currently rape the living (due to the Sodding Chip™), but a fresh kill means fresh "romance", right?

But fortunately for Spike, we not only see that it was in fact The Notorious Harmony Gang who plundered the (future?) Magic Box, but that Spike hadn't even known Harmony was in town at the time, so he couldn't have been riding shotgun to try and get first dibs on hot (but rapidly-cooling) Bogarty Buns. My apologies, Sparky.

Now whether Mort or Brad or Cyrus had a go, that we can't say.  But Spike's an innocent man.  Just the one Box-keeper for him; variety being the spice of Spike, it seems. 😉

I don't buy that Spike raped her, too cut up about Dru to think of that, it's pretty obvious that to 'have' a woman for vamps means biting. This has sexual qualities about it obviously. 

[Halting Hex]

12 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

That's an interesting question, did anyone ever tell Tara about Xillow?

Given that the Xillow-rific smoochies of Lovers Walk were the direct cause of Cordelia's summoning Anya in the following episode, it wouldn't be surprising if Anya kept a weather eye directed at Willow to be aware of any possible recurrence.  

Spoiler

She maintains her wariness of Xillow, as noted in Triangle.

And given that

Spoiler

Anya and Tara chat periodically, as seen in IWMTLY

, it's not impossible that Tara might have gotten all the Xillow backstory she needed, courtesy of a random "keep your woman away from my Xander!" outburst of possessiveness.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

BUFFY: Giles, are you sure about this?

Giles stands up behind the counter.

GILES: Why wouldn't I be?

BUFFY: Well, aside from the fact that most magic shop owners in Sunnydale have the life expectancy of a Spinal Tap drummer ... and, have you ever run a store before?

GILES: I was a librarian for years. This is exactly the same, except people pay for the things they don't return. (comes out from behind counter) It'll give me focus. Increase my resources. And it'll prevent you lot from trampling all over my flat at all hours. (he and Buffy walk toward the back) There may even be some space for you to train in the back.

BUFFY: Boy, you've really thought this through. How bored *were* you last year?

GILES: I watched Passions with Spike. Let us never speak of it. (Exits)

As much as I miss ol' Sunnyhell High and a library, relocating the Scooby Gang's headquarters to Giles' apartment in season 4 was a smart, even though slightly delayed, move. Because it minimized the risk of an unexpected vampiric attack, you know. If Buffy, Giles & Willow were smart enough to re-ensoul their beloved Angel from the safety of Giles'/Willow's/Buffy's private residence, things would've turned out differently in Becoming, Part 1. I'll never understand why it took a year and a destruction of both SHS and a library for Buffy & the Gang to realize it's a little bit safer to operate from a private home, i.e. no uninvited bloodsucking guests. 

But then Giles decides to become an enterpreneur (what was his source of income while he led the life of gentleman of leisure, btw?) and buys the Magic Box, thus increasing the risks. I can understand his reasoning, because, let's face it, nobody likes his apartment being crowded all the time which prevents from spending quality time with different "orgasm friends"... And I'm totally OK with Giles starting his own business, but I'm not sure relocating the hedquarters to the Magic Box was a best decision. And why couldn't Buffy train in the Casa Summers' basement? True, the private residence was never a 100% guarantee, since demons do not need an invitation, but still... public places in Sunnydale are high-risk zones. I mean, is it necessary to put, say, Dawn's life in jeopardy by leaving her at the place vamps can enter?      

[Halting Hex]

Eh, I'm not sure that hiding behind invitation barriers is a guarantee, exactly.  (The old "why don't the vampires just firebomb Buffy's house?" issue.)  And it's understandable that Giles didn't want to endanger his green card by being known for having underage female students at his pad, all hours of the night.

(Plus Xander, but feed him enough Chocolate Hurricanes and it might be "shoot me, stuff me, mount me" time, anyhow.  So best to play it safe, again.)

It's just a question of keeping an eye out, IMO.  Buffy did leave an honest-to-Zabuto Slayer behind to guard the Scoobs when they were trying the Ritual of Restoration.  Not her fault that Kendra lay down on the job, necessarily.

And we've already seen that Dawn is more than capable of stumbling into trouble, even before Giles sets up shop at the end of this episode.  So it seems harsh to blame the store for her, specifically.  But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:43 PM, lembergwatcher said:

As much as I miss ol' Sunnyhell High and a library, relocating the Scooby Gang's headquarters to Giles' apartment in season 4 was a smart, even though slightly delayed, move. Because it minimized the risk of an unexpected vampiric attack, you know. If Buffy, Giles & Willow were smart enough to re-ensoul their beloved Angel from the safety of Giles'/Willow's/Buffy's private residence, things would've turned out differently in Becoming, Part 1. I'll never understand why it took a year and a destruction of both SHS and a library for Buffy & the Gang to realize it's a little bit safer to operate from a private home, i.e. no uninvited bloodsucking guests. 

But then Giles decides to become an enterpreneur (what was his source of income while he led the life of gentleman of leisure, btw?) and buys the Magic Box, thus increasing the risks. I can understand his reasoning, because, let's face it, nobody likes his apartment being crowded all the time which prevents from spending quality time with different "orgasm friends"... And I'm totally OK with Giles starting his own business, but I'm not sure relocating the hedquarters to the Magic Box was a best decision. And why couldn't Buffy train in the Casa Summers' basement? True, the private residence was never a 100% guarantee, since demons do not need an invitation, but still... public places in Sunnydale are high-risk zones. I mean, is it necessary to put, say, Dawn's life in jeopardy by leaving her at the place vamps can enter?      

Dawnie screws up. All the Scoobs screw up. Her pluses far outweigh her minues. 

[Halting Hex]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:25 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Dawnie screws up. All the Scoobs screw up. Her pluses far outweigh her minuses. 

"Everybody does it" ≠ "Everybody did the same thing."  Quantity counts.

(Literally, in fact.  That's what quantifying is, counting things.)

**********************************************************

On 9/12/2018 at 2:51 AM, Halting Hex said:

Oh, great, now Harmony's minions are destroying canon just the same way Harmony herself does.  To paraphrase Giles about Jesse, Xander isn't looking at Brad, he's looking at the thing that killed him.  And it's so gross that Xander is acting as if Brad deserved to be killed because Brad used to be a dick to him; the show used to mourn even the less-than-sympathetic characters, like the Rodney Munsons of the world.  (Not to mention the part where Vamp!Brad probably went home and killed his whole family, as vampires like to do.)

As repugnant as I find this scene, this time I was even more grossed out by Buffy's "Harmony has minions?  Ha-ha-ha!" laughter.  Since Buffy is the Slayer, after all.  With the whole "Sacred Duty, yada-yada-yada" thing going on.

Yes, Harmony is in charge of vampires.  Who kill people. (Harmony killed Brad; the gang killed Mr. Bogarty.  And, while the Scoobs don't know it, Cyrus killed a census-taker. And presumably much more than that.)  And they make new vampires (again, Brad) who kill more people (Brad's family, most likely) Stopping this is pretty much the reason you have this job, Buffster.

Quote

GILES:  But vampires hunt and kill.  It's what they do.

—Angel

Quote

BUFFY:  Vampires are creeps.

GILES:  Yes; that's why one slays them.

—Ted

And so on.  You don't need every relevant quote, I'm sure.

Quote

RILEY: [Harmony] might be a threat to you.

Again, not the point, Spud.  It doesn't matter whether or not Harmony can kill Buffy, specifically.  Buffy's calling is to protect others.  If she was just wanting to save her own ass, she could fly off to Antigua and lie on the beach.  (We know from Who Are You that Buffy has a passport.). But there's this whole "heroes who fight monsters" thing that Buffy's supposed to be doing, rather than collapsing into giggles.

So that's why, as much as writing Xander completely contrary to his character boils my bunions, I still hold Buffy to a higher standard.  JMO.

******************************

I gotta say, when an episode has me offended on Harmony's behalf, that's quite a feat:

Quote

SPIKE:  Long time no see.  You look good.

HARMONY:  I feel good.

Spike smirks.

SPIKE:  I remember.

Oh, fuck off, Spanky.  Harmony's making a statement about her emotional health, and you're using it to reducing her to just her physical body.  Nice objectification going on.  

And no, the fact that you two used to date doesn't make it any better.  Especially as you were the one who dumped her.  (And tried to kill her, for that matter.)

*****************************

On 10/2/2020 at 8:43 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Quote

BUFFY: Giles, are you sure about this?

Giles stands up behind the counter.

GILES: Why wouldn't I be?

BUFFY: Well, aside from the fact that most magic shop owners in Sunnydale have the life expectancy of a Spinal Tap drummer ...

 

Say what?  Since when does "Mr. Caution Man" act so dangerously just to chase a cheap profit?  I realize that the "gentleman of leisure" is getting restless, but what happened to "You don't want to be surprised?" "Not as a rule, no" Giles?

And didn't Giles tell Willow (and Amy) that magic is dangerous, it's not to be trifled with?  As evident by Amy's continued residence in that Habitrail Willow provided.  Now he's just going to sell the stuff to any Jonathan or Bartender Jack in off of the street?  Way to go, dude.

It's a good thing Giles didn't accidentally kill somebody by summoning a demon and run and hide from the world for 20 years on account of it.  Otherwise this crap wouldn't make a lick of sense.  Sheesh.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Halting Hex

[watcher1006]

I've always thought that Mercedes McNab should have gotten more credit for her portrayal of Harmony than she did. On both shows. But I guess that's the typical fate of minor characters.

[illdoc]

16 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

. But I guess that's the typical fate of minor characters.

Spoiler

She did make it into the opening credits on Angel

 

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:05 AM, Halting Hex said:

And it's so gross that Xander is acting as if Brad deserved to be killed because Brad used to be a dick to him

Does it even occur to Xander that Harmony's current state is partially his fault too? That it wasn't the brightest idea to bring her of all people into the whole mess of "Mother of All Battles" on graduation day? That if it wasn't for his persuasion Harmony could've remained human and Brad probably too.

What were the chances Harmony who was hardly familiar with the underworld, let alone had any fighting experience, would've made it out alive and well? Zero, I'd say. 

Harmony may not have been the most pleasant character inhabiting the halls of SHS but that doesn't mean she deserved to be killed and vampirized. Besides, what exactly could she have brought to the table regarding the battle looming? Why was it so necessary to recruit her for the task she obviously wasn't prepared to?

Xander's attitude towards Brad the Guy That Used to be Dick to him is gross, true, but at least Xander had nothing to do with his demise. While his banter with Harmony whom he still views as some sort of annoying schoolmate and not someone who lost her life and took Joss knows how many others simply because General Harris thought it was a great idea to recruit every single 1999 graduate back in the day, is kinda unnerving. 

They should've shown Xander at least a little bit saddened, a little bit aware Harmony ended up like that partly because of his mistakes too. Because he was looking at the thing that killed the girl he knew for many years while the aforementioned girl died due to her listening to his arguments and joining the fight despite lacking abilities or experience. 

There could have been some drama involving Xander/Harmony interaction. Something vaguely resembling the issues between Sam Winchester and sheriff Roy Dobbs from Unforgiven... Yet the writers decided it was best to turn the whole thing into comedy. Because everything involving Xander has to be comical and superficial. JMO though...

[Halting Hex]

True, while Harmony was probably of use enrolling various SHS students in the "resistance" against the mayor, once the ceremony started, her part was pretty much done.  Xander should have instructed those who weren't likely to be much use in the fight to make a discreet exit.  Leave the fighting to the Percys and the Larrys and the Asian Dans.

I suppose it would be a bit sexist to make it "no girls allowed", especially considering the themes of the series, but it does seem that things could have been better organized.  If Willow gets to beat feet after her initial volley, Harmony should have been granted the same chance.