S07.E07: Conversations With Dead People

[lembergwatcher]

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Several separate encounters take place around Sunnydale on one night.

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Each of the episode's five storylines puts emphasis on a different aspect of the show: Buffy's conversations with Holden utilize the show's often off-color humor; Dawn trying to communicate with Joyce emphasizes the frightening and supernatural/horror elements of the show; Willow's conversation with Cassie consists entirely of well-crafted dialogue and drama, Andrew and Jonathan's storyline focuses on the suspenseful nature of the show, and Spike is shown entirely in brief, sporadic shots without dialogue.

Blah-blah-blah. Fifteen years later, I'm still as confused as I was when I saw Conversations With Dead Buffy for the first time. Well, the show itself was already dead probably since Buffy's demise in The Gift, therefore we've got not that much to expect to begin with. Maybe the crew was kinda out of touch with the episode's purpose so they confused shooting Conversations With Logical Inconsistencies with shooting a 40-plus-something minutes long video for Angie Hart's less than three minutes long song (IMO, one of the few moments in the ep that didn't suck that much actually, but Angie was no Jethro Tull and "Blue" was no "Thick as a Brick"), who knows.

Two lessons I've learned after watching the ep for the second time years later (it seems Buffy crew haven't):
1. The screenwriters have sometimes to re-read the scripts for an earlier episodes or freakin' rewatch them (especially if it involves popular show with more than 100 eps);
2. Even if you like a particular actor/actress playing one of the leads so much, there's still no need to put him/her in every damn ep - especially if his/her presense in the said ep is totally pointless. And if you can't do it that way (contract e.t.c.), than spend some more time thinkin' about it all.

As we know, the backstory of the final season's events was that: at the beginning of the previous season (more than a year before the events depicted in S07.E07), while WonderBuffy was still dead and buried, her fluffy battle kittens a.k.a. the Scooby Gang (Willow, Xander, Tara, Anya) performed a ritual to bring the Slayer back from the dead (i.e. meddled with some dangerous magic) thus creating a domino situation in the mystical community.

 

If yours truly remembers everything correctly, Buffy's ressurection had rather drastic consequences. First the subject was covered slightly in After Life. The Child of Words demon, created through thaumogenesis after the resurrection, while taunting the Scoobs in the guise of Buffy and Dawn, made a clear hint four of them (W, X, T, A) did something wrong. 

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BUFFY: What did you do? Do you know what you did? You're like children. Your hands smell of death. Bitches! Filthy little bitches, rattling the bones. Did you cut the throat? Did you pat its head?

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DAWN: All of you did it. You stupid children. Did you think the blood wouldn't reach you? I smell the death on you. Look at what you've done!

Well, right now I'm not going to discuss whether what Willow and the others did in Bargaining was perfectly right or dead wrong. But it seems like writers wanted all of us to believe that "magic had consequences" (screw Spike anyway) and the Scoobies themselves were somehow responsible for the Great Buffyversal Magical Screw-Up of 2001,  although the degrees of responsibility appeared to be different (W & X guilty as charged, A & T being involuntary accomplices).

Then the season 7 started with the First Evil to arise (confirmed exactly in CWDP) and the Potential Slayers being slaughtered in cold blood worldwide (confirmed since ep 1 Lessons) along with the watchers (confirmed later).

Spoiler

It was the 11th episode Show Time when Giles and Anya got their answers to the questions "why", "what" and "who" in Beljoxa's Eye dimension.

 

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GILES
If The First has been around for all time, then why hasn't it attempted something like this before? Why now?

BELJOXA'S EYE
The opportunity has only recently presented itself.

GILES
Opportunity?

BELJOXA'S EYE
The mystical forces surrounding the chosen line have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable.

ANYA
Something The First did?

BELJOXA'S EYE
The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.

GILES
Then what has caused the disruption? What—what is responsible for letting this happen?

BELJOXA'S EYE
The slayer

Both were wise enough to get it right:
 

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ANYA
Yeah, I just—I don't understand how Buffy's death mucked up the whole slayer mojo. You know, it's not like she hasn't died before.

GILES
It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not responsible for that.

ANYA
Oh. Oh. Willow and me and Xander and Tara. We're the ones who brought Buffy back. We're—we're the reason The First is here, the reason those girls were murdered. No, it's our fault. The would would've been better off if Buffy had just stayed dead.

The thing that continues to bug me ever since was the question "So, Giles and Anya found out and what???" The subject of who was responsible for the whole mess raised only once right there, in that conversation between A & G. No freakin' mention in the subsequent eps. But that was kinda fundamental question, wasn't it? Did they tell the others? And what the response could be, since two of the Slayer's right-hand men were somehow responsible for the young SIT's and the whole world's plight? If revealed, that thing would come as bombshell. But no nothing. Zero. Nada. The writers may have forgotten or something, I don't know.

OK, enough with pre-history. Just random thoughts.
First of all. The only ep without Xander in it (though him trying to sing/dance in that Vastly Overrated Musical Episode made no sense to me as well). Probably since they couldn't bring Eric Balfour and Kali Rocha for Xander-Jesse and Anya-Halfrek storylines respectively, they decided to give Nick and Emma a break. But what was the point for Aly starring in Conversations With No Common Sense?? Amber was unavailable/declined the offer, therefore they picked up Azura Skye instead. What's the idea?

Like it or not, but I find it kinda totally illogical when the First decided to pay a visit to Dawn and Spike, but somehow omitted Xander and Anya, who were there when the whole screw-up started. If the writers (and Spike) are to be believed, W/X/A/T did the freakin' resurrection spell together (Willow made it clear in Bargaining she needed her friends' help for the whole thing to succeed). Tara was dead, so no conversation. Then the First taunts Willow in CWDP, but avoids meeting her little helpers. I guess I totally miss something here.


You want Aly to play? How about some freakin' logic in the storyline? I don't think the show would have suffered much (it was already damaged by Spuffy bullshit) if Aly starred in 142 eps instead of 144 (her presense in Once More With Spuffy was also pointless). Willow, yeah. But who the hell was Willow in November 2002? Just a shell of her former self, outshined by Dawn and Spikey in Buffy's world. Buffy didn't give a damn 'bout her once best friend. And who the heck was Cassie Newton? Did you see her and Willow interacting in Help? Cassie as Tara's official "representative"? Did those two know each other while still alive? Did Jane and Drew want all of us to believe Willow (Willow!!!) was that dumb not to notice something was amiss right from the start of the conversation? And if the First really wanted the redhead witch to commit suicide why all that freakin' bullshit ("You're not gonna be OK. You're gonna kill everybody") instead of telling about Willow's own part in First Evil's rising and the following blood an' gore? If it really expected Willow to put gun into her own mouth right there, why not tell the shocking truth??? My overall impression was the First itself wanted that dirty little secret to stay secret. Honestly, I'm not buyin' it. No reason for Willow to be there at all (she's less important than Spike, don't you know??). Cassie Newton, my ass. Why not old Kaltenbach from All the Way?

Buffy and Holden storyline wasn't just boooooooooooooring, it was totally boooooooooooooooooooooring. You know, Jane, Drew, that wasn't even original after all. We saw Angel as boyfriend and the shoulder to cry on. We saw Spike as company first and sextoy later. But... Holden??? Really??? Our blond Slayer was so fucking alone and lost in blue, she chose a random vamp to spill her guts on? It was very disturbing, you know: shutting your best friends and sister out, but having bloodsuckers as close confidantes... You're sick little bitch, Buffy Summers. At least I loved the sincerity:

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I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel—this is awful—I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.

  Duh, Buffy. Just a confirmation of what yours truly suspected probably since When She Was Bad. The pleasant conversation however got interrupted the minute the sacred name of Buffy's true love #2 was mentioned:
 

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HOLDEN
Oh, you know, there's some things you can only tell a stranger.

BUFFY
You're not a stranger. That stuff with Spike is pretty—

HOLDEN
Hold it.

BUFFY
What?

HOLDEN
Did you say Spike?

BUFFY
What do you mean? How do you know Spike?

HOLDEN
What do you mean, how? He was the guy that, um—oh, what's the word?

BUFFY
Sired.

HOLDEN
Yeah, he was the guy that sired me.

And then Holden was all dust. Poor Holden. He should have known better. Thou shalt not mention Spike's name in vain, brothers and sisters.

As for Dawn's storyline... Although kinda cliched in one way or another, there were moments it was truly spooky. Unlike Willow's story, the First visiting the brat disguised as Joyce had at least some sense, IMO. Not that it could in any way save the ep.

After watching Grave for the first time my heart was full of hope I won't see Jonathan's or Andrew's annoying faces ever again in the series. My hopes proved to be too high and unfounded. Jonathan met his demise at the basement of the rebuilt Sunnydale High though, but his equally annoying friend survived. 

Spoiler

Andrew annoying the shit out of everyone in sight and being everyone's constant pain in the ass mainly due to his unhumorous humour for the rest of the series was soon to follow. Deep sigh.

And finally - our one and only, the "hottest guy" in the 'verse and the love of Buffy's life. Spike. Shown to be back to his old murderous ways, but fortunately without a single line. Captain Peroxide wasn't that talkative this time and it's clearly one of the very few moments in the whole ep that didn't suck. In fact those several times I watched Conversations With Dead Brain Cells I wanted to follow Angie's words and spend sime time alone...

[Halting Hex]

34 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

what was the point for Aly starring in Conversations With No Common Sense?? Amber was unavailable/declined the offer, therefore they picked up Azura Skye instead. What's the idea?

"You're that girl…whom I never actually met."  I agree that Willow/Cassie was just silly.  They should have worked around Amber's schedule/made her a better offer (because Marti did write some quality Willow-in-pain stuff for her Willow/Tara scene in the script)/found some other way to work Willow into the episode if Amber really was going all Robia LaMorte on them.  (Ironically, Jenny would also have been a good choice for Willow, but fat chance of that happening…)

Hell, pair Cassie with Buffy and let Willow do the Holden work.  Anything but this.

34 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

I don't think the show would have suffered much (it was already damaged by Spuffy bullshit) if Aly starred in 142 eps instead of 144 (her presense in Once More With Spuffy was also pointless).

Seriously disagree.  It's already bad enough that they made the blunder of omitting Xander (they'd gotten Kali Rocha twice already that season, no reason she couldn't have come back so Hallie could tell Xander he'd never make Anya happy, anybody she kills is his fault, etc.), but to make Willow equally dispensable?  To have nobody who was with Buffy every step of the way?  Oh, hell, no!

144/144, baby.  Read it and weep, Xander.  (On whose behalf I continue to remain offended, don't get me wrong.  Just don't do that to Willow, too.)

[OT] As for Once More with Spuffy, actually Willow is vital to that episode, and we need more of her, not less.  You really can't do the W/T plot developments without Willow being there, but more importantly, the show had decided to make the resurrection All.Willow's.Fault , so Willow really needs to be in the episode where Buffy does the reveal.  I mean, it was nice she had minions, but Will was the one making with the snake-puking and all of that…she was the one who risked her soul to save that ungrateful bitch her best friend, so she gets to be around when Buffy finally decides to stop lying to the gang about heeeeeeeeeeeaven.  (And promptly starts up again by lying about fucking Spike.  Because what is Buffy going to do with her Lie-fe if she can't deceive and bullshit her "friends", after all?)

What the episode needs is a Willow song, to counterbalance the shit-ton of blame that gets dropped on her.  Screw "Walk Through the Fire" and explore Willow's pain and guilt, her desperation to bring Buffy back, her hurt at being shut out and excluded.  Then nut up, Joss, and make Aly take the same vocal lessons that Sarah did.  I realize that Buffy is your "stahhhhhr", but you made the "brilliant" decision to make Willow your "bad guy" for the season, so you have to get inside her head as well.  It's the difference between Angelus and Adam, after all.

JMO. [/OT]

Edited September 7, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Just now, Halting Hex said:

What the episode needs is a Willow song,

Well, true. Because Willow singing only one or two lines in OMWF was kinda problematic for me, since characters singing and revealing their dirty little secrets was the ep's main topic. Otherwise she appeared either not to have any dirty laundry at all or being able to resist the spell with some magic of her own (and not saying a word to the rest). Maybe, she was essential, but Joss should have spent more time in order to omit the obvious (even to teenage me back then) logic holes.

 

15 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

144/144, baby.

Alrihgt. Perhaps I overreacted a little. Then again Jane and Drew could either find another ways to express the creative vision or flip Buffy and Willow (though Willow/Holden is still kinda problematic), but, please, spare me the idiocy of Willow/Cassie.

[illdoc]

44 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I find it kinda totally illogical when the First decided to pay a visit to Dawn and Spike, but somehow omitted Xander and Anya, who were there when the whole screw-up started.

How do we know it didn't? Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen off-screen

[lembergwatcher]

43 minutes ago, illdoc said:

How do we know it didn't? Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen off-screen

Spoiler

How about, you know, at least mentioning it in the next episode? Had to rewatch Sleeper solely for some sort of confirmation it did. I don't think nightly visits from the dead were that common even for Sunnydale.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Well, you should have already learned that earlier in the show's run: Oz is missing in several episodes in season three, James Masters is not in The Body, Emma Caulfield is not in Normal Again or Help.

Well, I think since Xander happened to be one of the gang's original three musketeers, who helped Buffy since the beginning, he's 1000 more important than all the Spikes of the Buffyverse. I can handle 20+ episodes with no trace of Spike/Anya, but even one ep without Xander is a sacrilege,  period.
 

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

It makes sense that the First would appear to Willow and try to manipulate her into committing suicide,

I didn't say the First appearing to Willow made no sense. I said the First disguised as Cassie Newton made no sense whatsoever. And I for my part don't think the individual actor's charisma can be enough reward for logical holes in the plot. And yeah, that kind of manipulation was quite lame for something like the First. It had the whole Bargaining thing and the worldwide slaughter of the SIT (the events that have already happened or occured at the moment) as a trump card, and yet chose to make all the shit talking about the things that might or might not have happened.
 

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Xander has no real power, Anya has lost her demon powers at this point.

And what difference does it make? If he was so lame, why bother getting him involved in the whole deal, if Willow was so powerful herself.
 

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WILLOW: Xander, I can do this, I promise. But not without you.

A key guy once again, whether you like it or not. Important enough for the whole mojo back than, not important enough to have a visit from the dead in response a year later. What could change so drastically in a year? And btw it was common powerless guy Xander, who almost single-handedly averted mini-Apocalypse on the Bluff nearly half a year before the events in Conversations With Dead Writing took place. I dare say that fact somehow refutes the notion of "no real power".

 

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Buffy/Holden was actually written by Joss

Sadly it proves the point Joss should have left Buffy after Restless for the sake of the show and its viewers.

Edited September 7, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

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In the fight against the First, Xander had no real power, because he was never going to be a threat to it.

Dawn was even less of a threat and the First Moron still decided to give her a visit. And in any event, you don't need any superpowers in order for your betrayal to have horrible consequences. I mean, theoretically Xander could have turned to the dark side and simply killed Buffy in her sleep or something mundane like that.

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This was actually a fairly interesting look into the slayer's psyche and how she is still very far removed from her friends.

Remember when Joss could write interesting characterization without impromptu therapy sessions, i.e. infodumping about the particular character's issues? I do.

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"You're that girl…whom I never actually met."  I agree that Willow/Cassie was just silly.  They should have worked around Amber's schedule/made her a better offer (because Marti did write some quality Willow-in-pain stuff for her Willow/Tara scene in the script)/found some other way to work Willow into the episode if Amber really was going all Robia LaMorte on them.  (Ironically, Jenny would also have been a good choice for Willow, but fat chance of that happening…)

How about kill off Amy and have her come back to haunt Willow? Since she had been nothing but a glorified plot device ever since The Witch anyway...

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I don't think the show would have suffered much (it was already damaged by Spuffy bullshit) if Aly starred in 142 eps instead of 144 (her presense in Once More With Spuffy was also pointless).

Tara's first song in OMWF would have been a little awkward without Willow around, you know. ;) And Willow did go to try and save Buffy... only to step back and let Spike do it. Man, this episode is so stupidly overrated.

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 Screw "Walk Through the Fire" and explore Willow's pain and guilt, her desperation to bring Buffy back, her hurt at being shut out and excluded.

What's there to explore, if you do too much magic you become evil, the end. Behold the amazing depth of season six.

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

(though Willow/Holden is still kinda problematic

Really no more than Buffy/Holden was; although we haven't seen Holden "Webs" Webster before, we are told he's a former classmate of Buffy's, and therefore Willow's.  His appearing to Willow, now vampirized, would be as surprising as it was to Buffy. And it's not as if Willow didn't need a good psychiatric session just as much as Buffy did.  True, you couldn't work the pointless fighting into this one as easily as with Buffy/Holden, but you could have Willow aim a spell at him only for "Holden" to laugh and claim to be immune because Willow's magic is corrupted now, yada-yada, she's going to kill everybody, she should really just do everyone a favor…

At which point, Willow, still not that stupid, realizes what's going on, and we get the reveal of the First, topped off by First!Holden saying, "Oh, this is just a mask…Buffy actually slayed me last week.  She didn't tell you? I guess she was too embarrassed about that Spike guy being my sire…"

Meanwhile, in another corner of the plot, Buffy is confronted by First!Cassie, another one of The Ones She Couldn't Save…

(But I actually have a better idea than this, now…)

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Emma Caulfield is not in Normal Again or Help

Spoiler

Or Dirty Girls.  Which is kind of ridiculous considering what happens to Xander in that episode.  I mean, the W/X hospital scene in Empty Places is one of a very few high points in Season 7 for me, but the idea that Anya isn't at the hospital with the man she nearly married is as absurd as…well, pretty much anything else having to do with Xanya, honestly.

 

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Actually, Kali Rocha was not available. She even had to shoot all her scenes in "Selfless" when she shot her scene for the season premiere.

Well, then work around it some more.  It's a couple of scenes, with one other actor (Nick) presumably in one location; film it whenever you can get Kali there.  It's not as if she has Amber or Robia's emotional ambiguity about doing the episode; it's solely an availability issue.  (I'd assume.). And this is the show that shot an entire episode with their lead only available on the weekends because she was flying down to Australia to film Scooby-Doo.  Relatively speaking, three Halfrek scenes should have been a snap.

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

1.) Buffy/Holden was actually written by Joss, even though Jane and Drew were credited for the episode.

Correct.  Here's the breakdown:

• Joss wrote Buffy/Holden

• Marti wrote Willow/Tara (later changed to Willow/Cassie)

• Jane wrote Dawn/Joyce

• Drew wrote the Trio (Jane was sad she didn't get to write Jonathan again, some more.

Spoiler

 But luckily we still have Storyteller yet to come

And I believe I've just made Loandbehold's head explode.  Sorry about that.)

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

However, a better and eerier choice would probably have been Rack, who Willow had murdered earlier.

No, if we're going this route, we might as well use Warren for Willow as well.  Willow knew him a lot better than "Strawberry" knew her dealer.  Plus he was her "first", her step down into corruption.  "Warren" could taunt Willow about the chances she'd missed to save Tara because she was blinded by vengeance:  the Time-Reversal spell that she said she could perform in All the Way but didn't even try in Villains, the wish-granting demon she had under her mind-control, etc.

"Now you're never going to see her again!  And it's all your fault! I mean…unless you want to come join us…it's not like you've got any real reason to stick around here, right?"

And we don't see First!Warren hanging around Andrew and Jonathan until Willow has "driven him away".  At which point he appears over Jonathan's shoulder during the final montage, just as Andrew drives the knife home.  

But that's one reason I'm against this sort of "segmented" script-writing; it makes it so much harder to join the parts into a coherent whole.  But JMO.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And I believe I've just made Loandbehold's head explode.  Sorry about that.)

No worries. I got better.

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All of it, pretty damn amazing the whole thing. In a pretty intense and serious episode I do like Dawn's fun anchovies song and dance not to mention her marshmallow in the microwave (love to try that but then it didn't turn out too well for her)

The Bad; The only problems I have is that there's no Xander and that the Cassie role was so blatantly supposed to be Tara. If it is The First that visits Dawn it's actions seem remarkably tame AND it seems to be able to move stuff with it's will which it can't do later. Also why put on the big show, why not just appear to Dawn as it did to Willow and Andrew? Maybe it is Joyce but the First is somehow manipulating her and only allows it to put over what it wants Dawn to hear? If it is The First trying to mislead Dawn why does it try to get her to leave the house?

Best line; Holden; "Who knows, maybe I'll win?" Buffy; (almost pityingly) "No, I'm the Slayer. You're not leaving this graveyard"

Women good/men bad; We learn that Hank cheated on Joyce and that was the reason for their divorce.

Jeez!; Holden hitting Buffy in the face with the virgin Mary statuette. Dawn getting all cut up. Cassie/The First's description of how she imagined Willow committing suicide.

Kinky dinky; When confessing to Holden Buffy says that during her sex with Spike she felt she deserved to be punished which explains some of the violent/S&M nature of their relationship. Buffy says she hates the way vamps equate sex, pain, death and love but then as Spike said, they are evil, they should be treading on the darkside. Looking back on her previous boyfriends Buffy observes she sure can pick them, every one a doomed romance. There were rumours at SDH that Buffy was dating a really old guy but did this mean Angel or Giles? ("Older man, very handsome, likes it when I call him daddy") Holden says he is 'chatting Buffy up'. Spike effortlessly picks a hot blonde up at the bar the actress going on to play Senator Perrin's wife in Dollhouse. Buffy refers to Spike 'taking me over completely' and 'doing such things to me'. Holden refers to guy talk in 'nailing a girl'.

Captain Subtext; So if Spike sires his blonde after picking her up in a bar does he do the same thing with Holden? Buffy confesses she feels superior to her friends and lovers but feels guilty about it. This suggests that Faith is actually the ideal girl for her as they're equal in every way. Scott Hope, Buffy's boyfriend from season 3 has now come out of the closet which must be a relief for her as it means their break up wasn't her fault. But apparently he told everyone she was gay which given her track record with guys might be the best option for her? Note that Jonathon and Andrew actually want to be part of the Scooby gang which

Spoiler

Andrew at least will achieve.

Missing scenes; Supposedly we were to see Xander visited by Jesse and Anya by Halfrek but they couldn't get the actors which was a great shame.

Recurring characters killed: 13 byebye Jonathon, with us from the untransmitted pilot who came good in the end.

What the fanficcers thought; Loads of fic where Joyce's real ghost visits both Dawn and Buffy, how wonderful if we could see the mother we loved and lost again if only for a minute. Interesting to see Dawn in Ash from Evil Dead mode, once read a fic where Tara's family are actually Texas Chainsaw Massacre types and kill everyone in the season 5 Scoobies except for Tara, Riley, Willow and Dawn. However in the follow up story Tara and Willow resurrect Buffy and she finds that Dawn has now turned into a combination of Ash/Lara Croft (but still has both hands). Meanwhile Faith defeated the First and shared her power with the Potentials but was presumed to have perished in the collapsing Hellmouth. But whose is that gorgeous female hand holding a scythe breaking the surface at the Sunnydale crater...?

Questions and observations;

I take it that the Dartmouth Holden refers to is a college in the US rather than the town in Devon? By the commentary we know that it isn't really Joyce who visits Dawn but her warning that Buffy wouldn't choose Dawn in the end turns out to be prophetic. Dawn's battle with The First(?) references The Excorcist (Max Von Sydow is in Judge Dredd with Sylvester Stallone who's in The Expendables with CC so in 3) , Die Hard style glass in feet (Bruce Willis is in Ally McBeal with Armin Shimmerman so in 2), The Shining (Jack Nicholson is in 'As Good As It Gets with Julie Benz so in 2), The Amityville Horror (Margot Kidder is in Smallville with James Marsters so in 2), Poltergeist (Craig Nelson is in My Name is Earl with Seth Green so in 2), Highlander (Christopher Lambert is in  Southland Tales with SMG so in 2) and especially the Evil Dead films (Bruce Campbell is in The X-files with Seth Green so in 2). Andrew says he found Klingon easier to learn than Spanish but then as an artificial language it would be simpler. 'Insane troll logic' again. Kit from 'Lessons' recurs although off-screen. Someone in the Summer's house likes Mariarchi music as it was also on their radio in 'Quelled'. Lovely music at the Bronze, is that the same band as in Dopplegangland? Is Jason Wheeler the guy who won the class clown award in The Prom? Holden has studied 2 years of Tae-Kwan-Do which is SMG's martial art. Buffy refuses to commit on the God question despite the effects of crosses and holy water on vamps. Considering how much real horror there is in Dawn's life you'd wonder that she watches a horror film? JE refers disparagingly to Charmed on the commentary. Holden refers to the SD mental hospital which was presumably built after season 5. Buffy still suffers from the Slayer death-wish to a degree to judge from some of the things she says.

Marks out of 10; 9/10, only failing to be 10/10 due to no Xander and no Tara. This one I watched 4 times, twice with the commentary.

4 out of 5 found this helpful. Permalink

[Halting Hex]

Major commentary ^ upthread, just minor details here.

17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I take it that the Dartmouth Holden refers to is a college in the US rather than the town in Devon?

Yes, I mentioned this to you back on TWoP.  Dartmouth College is in the famed "Ivy League", along with Yale and Harvard (both of which offered Willow scholarships) and Columbia (one of the acceptances Cordelia couldn't attend, for financial reasons).  Notable alumni include the poet Robert Frost, Theodore "Dr. Seuss" Geisel, and Fred "Mr." Rogers, along with Daniel Webster, the great lawyer/politician of the 19th century.  (But not the best judge of opportunities; Webster twice declined to run for vice-president despite the urging of his party, the Whigs, thinking the office below him.  In both cases, the Whigs won the election, and the president [William Harrison, Zachary Taylor] promptly died each time.  So Webster blew not one, but two chances to inherit the top spot.)

17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Lovely music at the Bronze, is that the same band as in Dopplegangland?

No, Angie Hart fronted Superfine (who performed "Charge" in I Only Have Eyes For You) and was there as a soloist in The Freshman (performing "You and I"), but not in Döppelgängland; that band is K's Choice, with Sarah Bettens on vocals.

17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

JE refers disparagingly to Charmed on the commentary.

Eh, last year Charmed's S4 was kicking Buffy S6's ass all around the block.  What I wouldn't have given for something with the skill of Hell Hath No Fury or The Fifth Halliwheel or Long Live the Queen on this show.  (I grant you that I enjoyed Normal Again more than its "cousin", Brain Drain, but even then it was close…) This season (B7/C5) they're both pretty much crap, but it hurts more here, because Charmed rarely moved me the way this one did.  The higher you start, the harder you fall, and all that.  Which Hacky Jane doesn't have much cause to worry about, I'll allow.  But even so.

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Major commentary ^ upthread, just minor details here.

Yes, I mentioned this to you back on TWoP.  Dartmouth College is in the famed "Ivy League", along with Yale and Harvard (both of which offered Willow scholarships) and Columbia (one of the acceptances Cordelia couldn't attend, for financial reasons).  Notable alumni include the poet Robert Frost, Theodore "Dr. Seuss" Geisel, and Fred "Mr." Rogers, along with Daniel Webster, the great lawyer/politician of the 19th century.  (But not the best judge of opportunities; Webster twice declined to run for vice-president despite the urging of his party, the Whigs, thinking the office below him.  In both cases, the Whigs won the election, and the president [William Harrison, Zachary Taylor] promptly died each time.  So Webster blew not one, but two chances to inherit the top spot.)

No, Angie Hart fronted Superfine (who performed "Charge" in I Only Have Eyes For You) and was there as a soloist in The Freshman (performing "You and I"), but not in Döppelgängland; that band is K's Choice, with Sarah Bettens on vocals.

Eh, last year Charmed's S4 was kicking Buffy S6's ass all around the block.  What I wouldn't have given for something with the skill of Hell Hath No Fury or The Fifth Halliwheel or Long Live the Queen on this show.  (I grant you that I enjoyed Normal Again more than its "cousin", Brain Drain, but even then it was close…) This season (B7/C5) they're both pretty much crap, but it hurts more here, because Charmed rarely moved me the way this one did.  The higher you start, the harder you fall, and all that.  Which Hacky Jane doesn't have much cause to worry about, I'll allow.  But even so.

The weakest episode of Buffy is still head and shoulders above the best ep of Charmed, Buffy is the Beatles and Charmed is The Monkees (Xena is The Rolling Stones). Not sure Xander would appreciate being referred to as a 'fluffy battle kitten'? Dawn is not a brat, her one woman Die Hard to save her mother is superb, she could be Ash Williams in the cabin. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 5:21 PM, Halting Hex said:

"You're that girl…whom I never actually met."  I agree that Willow/Cassie was just silly.  They should have worked around Amber's schedule/made her a better offer (because Marti did write some quality Willow-in-pain stuff for her Willow/Tara scene in the script)/found some other way to work Willow into the episode if Amber really was going all Robia LaMorte on them.  (Ironically, Jenny would also have been a good choice for Willow, but fat chance of that happening…)

Hell, pair Cassie with Buffy and let Willow do the Holden work.  Anything but this.

Seriously disagree.  It's already bad enough that they made the blunder of omitting Xander (they'd gotten Kali Rocha twice already that season, no reason she couldn't have come back so Hallie could tell Xander he'd never make Anya happy, anybody she kills is his fault, etc.), but to make Willow equally dispensable?  To have nobody who was with Buffy every step of the way?  Oh, hell, no!

144/144, baby.  Read it and weep, Xander.  (On whose behalf I continue to remain offended, don't get me wrong.  Just don't do that to Willow, too.)

[OT] As for Once More with Spuffy, actually Willow is vital to that episode, and we need more of her, not less.  You really can't do the W/T plot developments without Willow being there, but more importantly, the show had decided to make the resurrection All.Willow's.Fault , so Willow really needs to be in the episode where Buffy does the reveal.  I mean, it was nice she had minions, but Will was the one making with the snake-puking and all of that…she was the one who risked her soul to save that ungrateful bitch her best friend, so she gets to be around when Buffy finally decides to stop lying to the gang about heeeeeeeeeeeaven.  (And promptly starts up again by lying about fucking Spike.  Because what is Buffy going to do with her Lie-fe if she can't deceive and bullshit her "friends", after all?)

What the episode needs is a Willow song, to counterbalance the shit-ton of blame that gets dropped on her.  Screw "Walk Through the Fire" and explore Willow's pain and guilt, her desperation to bring Buffy back, her hurt at being shut out and excluded.  Then nut up, Joss, and make Aly take the same vocal lessons that Sarah did.  I realize that Buffy is your "stahhhhhr", but you made the "brilliant" decision to make Willow your "bad guy" for the season, so you have to get inside her head as well.  It's the difference between Angelus and Adam, after all.

JMO. [/OT]

Yeah, it's a shame they couldn't have got Xander in somewhere but I guess if you're a regular you get paid (and royalties) nonetheless 

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 9:28 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Well, I think since Xander happened to be one of the gang's original three musketeers, who helped Buffy since the beginning, he's 1000 more important than all the Spikes of the Buffyverse. I can handle 20+ episodes with no trace of Spike/Anya, but even one ep without Xander is a sacrilege,  period.
 

I didn't say the First appearing to Willow made no sense. I said the First disguised as Cassie Newton made no sense whatsoever. And I for my part don't think the individual actor's charisma can be enough reward for logical holes in the plot. And yeah, that kind of manipulation was quite lame for something like the First. It had the whole Bargaining thing and the worldwide slaughter of the SIT (the events that have already happened or occured at the moment) as a trump card, and yet chose to make all the shit talking about the things that might or might not have happened.
 

And what difference does it make? If he was so lame, why bother getting him involved in the whole deal, if Willow was so powerful herself.
 

A key guy once again, whether you like it or not. Important enough for the whole mojo back than, not important enough to have a visit from the dead in response a year later. What could change so drastically in a year? And btw it was common powerless guy Xander, who almost single-handedly averted mini-Apocalypse on the Bluff nearly half a year before the events in Conversations With Dead Writing took place. I dare say that fact somehow refutes the notion of "no real power".

 

Sadly it proves the point Joss should have left Buffy after Restless for the sake of the show and its viewers.

So untrue, so often the bits everyone loves (eg Dawn cuddling up to the Buffybot) are Joss inserts, if anything the later seasons suffered from not enough Joss who was spreading himself too thin. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:31 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Dawn was even less of a threat and the First Moron still decided to give her a visit. And in any event, you don't need any superpowers in order for your betrayal to have horrible consequences. I mean, theoretically Xander could have turned to the dark side and simply killed Buffy in her sleep or something mundane like that.

Remember when Joss could write interesting characterization without impromptu therapy sessions, i.e. infodumping about the particular character's issues? I do.

How about kill off Amy and have her come back to haunt Willow? Since she had been nothing but a glorified plot device ever since The Witch anyway...

Tara's first song in OMWF would have been a little awkward without Willow around, you know. ;) And Willow did go to try and save Buffy... only to step back and let Spike do it. Man, this episode is so stupidly overrated.

What's there to explore, if you do too much magic you become evil, the end. Behold the amazing depth of season six.

Dawn was Buffy's rock, by putting the split between them she hits the Slayer where it hurts 

Spoiler

as we will see in the final few eps.

On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:20 PM, Loandbehold said:

No worries. I got better.

Got a neck rub?

[lembergwatcher]

5 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

So untrue, so often the bits everyone loves (eg Dawn cuddling up to the Buffybot) are Joss inserts, if anything the later seasons suffered from not enough Joss who was spreading himself too thin. 

Everyone except me. The thing is I'm quite indifferent to the whole Buffy/Dawn arc. The later seasons were created by Whedon's team and Joss approved everything they did unfortunately. I don't think the series would've suffered less if Joss was still heavily involved. 

Spoiler

The horrible Chosen kind of proves my point.

[Joe Hellandback]

6 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Everyone except me. The thing is I'm quite indifferent to the whole Buffy/Dawn arc. The later seasons were created by Whedon's team and Joss approved everything they did unfortunately. I don't think the series would've suffered less if Joss was still heavily involved. 

  Hide contents

The horrible Chosen kind of proves my point.

1. Check your pulse because you must be made of STONE not to love Daffy. 

2. We'll talk Chosen when we get there.

[lembergwatcher]

26 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Check your pulse because you must be made of STONE not to love Daffy.

True, I'm not the Daffy fan. Daffy altering the Scooby Gang's dynamics rather drastically is the primary reason for that. Maybe I was made of stone but Buffy herself didn't act as a loving and caring sister when it came to Dawnie most of the time. She was too busy either fucking Spike (S.06) or adoring him for his precious sooooouul (S.07).

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The weakest episode of Buffy is still head and shoulders above the best ep of Charmed

You're kidding, of course.  Morality Bites and Long Live the Queen are better than almost any three Dawnverse episodes combined.  And much as I got sick of Cole by the end of his run (he should have just stayed in the underworld after S4, and Centennial Charmed was a very weak final defeat), he was never Spike.  In both the good and the bad sense, I suppose.

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy is the Beatles and Charmed is The Monkees

And many Monkees songs are better than many Beatles songs.  Being first and better overall doesn't equate to the total triumph you imagine it does here.  (I mean, "Blue Jay Way"?   Need I say more?)

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

The weakest episode of Buffy is still head and shoulders above the best ep of Charmed

Watching paint dry is head and shoulders above 95% of the S6-7 BtVS episodes.

Quote

Check your pulse because you must be made of STONE not to love Daffy. 

But I don't. It was incredibly forced. Buffy became so unlikable in this seasons and one of the main reasons was writing plots solely on the basis of how much can we make Buffy suffers other than, you know, telling interesting stories. And Dawn is one of the main culprits, she is a useless burden on Buffy's neck for most of her presence in the show and a main reason for the growing distance between Buffy on the one hand and Willow, Xander and Giles on the other.. Granted, I liked her more than Buffy at that point but that ain't saying much.

Tara and Dawn got only a fraction of the screen time of Buffy and Dawn but their bond came across as far more natural and moving than "OMG, the Summers family is the most important thing in the world and the awesomest family ever, never mind it's literally the result of mind rape".

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

True, I'm not the Daffy fan. Daffy altering the Scooby Gang's dynamics rather drastically is the primary reason for that. Maybe I was made of stone but Buffy herself didn't act as a loving and caring sister when it came to Dawnie most of the time. She was too busy either fucking Spike (S.06) or adoring him for his precious sooooouul (S.07).

Untrue, Buffy was amazingly loving to Dawn, she says she's the most precious thing in the world to her but she struggles when she comes back from the dead, Dawn does not come second best to Captain Peroxide. .

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

You're kidding, of course.  Morality Bites and Long Live the Queen are better than almost any three Dawnverse episodes combined.  And much as I got sick of Cole by the end of his run (he should have just stayed in the underworld after S4, and Centennial Charmed was a very weak final defeat), he was never Spike.  In both the good and the bad sense, I suppose.

And many Monkees songs are better than many Beatles songs.  Being first and better overall doesn't equate to the total triumph you imagine it does here.  (I mean, "Blue Jay Way"?   Need I say more?)

Which Charmed eps are those again? Remember the Monkees never wrote their songs (Neil Diamond did). Let's see, Davy Jones was in Sabrina with Clare Kramer so in 2.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Watching paint dry is head and shoulders above 95% of the S6-7 BtVS episodes.

But I don't. It was incredibly forced. Buffy became so unlikable in this seasons and one of the main reasons was writing plots solely on the basis of how much can we make Buffy suffers other than, you know, telling interesting stories. And Dawn is one of the main culprits, she is a useless burden on Buffy's neck for most of her presence in the show and a main reason for the growing distance between Buffy on the one hand and Willow, Xander and Giles on the other.. Granted, I liked her more than Buffy at that point but that ain't saying much.

Tara and Dawn got only a fraction of the screen time of Buffy and Dawn but their bond came across as far more natural and moving than "OMG, the Summers family is the most important thing in the world and the awesomest family ever, never mind it's literally the result of mind rape".

6 is a good season but depressing, 7 is fun but I guess not if you dislike Spuffy. Buffy never becomes unlikeable, Dawn is the light of her life and the other characters grow on their own, they can't be Buffy's hand holders forever, (unlike Dawn). 

 I like Tara and Dawn but Tara and Willow are the favourite aunts for Dawn whilst Buffy is the love of her life and vice versa.  

[Halting Hex]

23 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Which Charmed eps are those again?

Well, my favorite is Morality Bites (2.02), but there are plenty of good eps in S1, and some in S3-S4.  (I'd even argue that the "Avatar" arc of S7 has its virtues.)  There's a Charmed board here, I'm sure; I don't post there, but it has a devoted fandom, so you can get ideas from them.

(Remember that, sadly, BtVS wasn't the #1 show on the WB once Charmed came along.  No, I don't understand it, either.  But that's not to say that there was never a good story told about the sisters.)

26 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Remember the Monkees never wrote their songs (Neil Diamond did).

"The Pre-Fab Four" were doing their own songwriting soon enough, beginning with their third album, Headquarters.  (Remember that they hadn't grown organically as a band, they'd been cast for the TV show.)  Most of the big hits were from other writers ("I'm a Believer" was by Diamond, "Last Train to Clarksville" was by Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart, "Pleasant Valley Sunday" was by Gerry Goffin and Carole King, etc.)…but that doesn't make them bad songs.

Indeed, they even made some history (under spoiler cut, because it's naught to do with Buffy)…

Spoiler

 

"Daily Nightly", written by Mike Nesmith, is allegedly the first song ever to feature the Moog synthesizer.  So some of the classics by the Who and other bands would be impossible if the Monkees hadn't been there, first.

Also, if you've never seen Head, the psychedelic film directed by a pre-Easy Rider Bob Rafelson and starring Mickey, Mike, Peter and Davy, and Jack Nicholson, you don't know what you're missing.  A true classic.  And, as pointed out in the comments, it just had its 50th anniversary last Tuesday.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:26 AM, Halting Hex said:

Well, my favorite is Morality Bites (2.02), but there are plenty of good eps in S1, and some in S3-S4.  (I'd even argue that the "Avatar" arc of S7 has its virtues.)  There's a Charmed board here, I'm sure; I don't post there, but it has a devoted fandom, so you can get ideas from them.

(Remember that, sadly, BtVS wasn't the #1 show on the WB once Charmed came along.  No, I don't understand it, either.  But that's not to say that there was never a good story told about the sisters.)

"The Pre-Fab Four" were doing their own songwriting soon enough, beginning with their third album, Headquarters.  (Remember that they hadn't grown organically as a band, they'd been cast for the TV show.)  Most of the big hits were from other writers ("I'm a Believer" was by Diamond, "Last Train to Clarksville" was by Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart, "Pleasant Valley Sunday" was by Gerry Goffin and Carole King, etc.)…but that doesn't make them bad songs.

Indeed, they even made some history (under spoiler cut, because it's naught to do with Buffy)…

  Hide contents

 

"Daily Nightly", written by Mike Nesmith, is allegedly the first song ever to feature the Moog synthesizer.  So some of the classics by the Who and other bands would be impossible if the Monkees hadn't been there, first.

 

Also, if you've never seen Head, the psychedelic film directed by a pre-Easy Rider Bob Rafelson and starring Mickey, Mike, Peter and Davy, and Jack Nicholson, you don't know what you're missing.  A true classic.  And, as pointed out in the comments, it just had its 50th anniversary last Tuesday.

 

 

I have seen Head but I don't remember Jack Nicholson in it, are you sure you don't mean Vic Mature? 

[Halting Hex]

39 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I have seen Head but I don't remember Jack Nicholson in it, are you sure you don't mean Vic Mature? 

It's an uncredited cameo; he's the director in the filmshoot-at-the-restaurant scene.  I only mention it because of his close professional relationship with Rafelson behind the camera, and this was the start of that.  (Nicholson was a producer on Head; Rafelson would later direct him in some of his signature roles, notably Five Easy Pieces.)

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

It's an uncredited cameo; he's the director in the filmshoot-at-the-restaurant scene.  I only mention it because of his close professional relationship with Rafelson behind the camera, and this was the start of that.  (Nicholson was a producer on Head; Rafelson would later direct him in some of his signature roles, notably Five Easy Pieces.)

Oh ok, Jack Nicholson is easy, he was in As Good As It Gets with Julie Benz. 

[secnarf]

On 11/11/2018 at 11:38 PM, Halting Hex said:

Major commentary ^ upthread, just minor details here.

Yes, I mentioned this to you back on TWoP.  Dartmouth College is in the famed "Ivy League", along with Yale and Harvard (both of which offered Willow scholarships) and Columbia (one of the acceptances Cordelia couldn't attend, for financial reasons).  Notable alumni include the poet Robert Frost, Theodore "Dr. Seuss" Geisel, and Fred "Mr." Rogers, along with Daniel Webster, the great lawyer/politician of the 19th century.  (But not the best judge of opportunities; Webster twice declined to run for vice-president despite the urging of his party, the Whigs, thinking the office below him.  In both cases, the Whigs won the election, and the president [William Harrison, Zachary Taylor] promptly died each time.  So Webster blew not one, but two chances to inherit the top spot.)

Thanks to your post, I was able to answer Final Jeopardy tonight! (The clue: 1 of the 2 presidents who offered Daniel Webster the VP slot; he declined both, thinking the job went nowhere)

[Halting Hex]

Wow, that's so cool!  Do we have a lurker on the staff, maybe?

(Perhaps if W. H. Harrison had mentioned that he was planning on giving the longest inaugural address ever [2 hours, 40 minutes, with long passages quoting Roman generals in Latin] and Webster had realized that Harrison, as a veteran campaigner sensitive about his age [he was 68, a record for elected presidents that stood until Reagan], would refuse to move the ceremony indoors or even wear a coat, despite rain, he could have seen the pneumonia on the wall and taken the #2 spot that ended up benefitting John Tyler so…but that would call for a lot of foresight for 1840, I'll admit.)