lembergwatcher September 2, 2018 Share September 2, 2018 (edited) Quote Adam agrees to remove Spike's chip if he helps him by isolating Buffy from the rest of the Scooby Gang. When I watched the ep for the first time ca 2002 it left me literally speechless (just like Sunnydale's residents in the pivotal Hush). For a long time some evil part of me wanted Doug Petrie sacked (or worse) for even suggesting the Scoobies could be that stupid. You should have had more respect for the people who were fighting everything the Hellmouth threw at them fourth year in a row (and for the audience for that matter), Dougie. First. When did Spike become such a trusted companion to the gang that his words suddenly matter that much? Why the heck are Giles, Xander and Willow all of a sudden start eating crap (about Buffy having no respect for her Watcher anymore, Willow and Buffy dying to see Xander wearing military uniform or Buffy and Xander talking behind Willow's back regarding witchcraft and her new sexual preferences) when literally all they have as proof are Spike's words?? Guys, it's Ssssspike! The bloodsucker. The monster. The ruthless killer, your deadly nemesis, who always wanted each and every one of you dead. The sick son of a bitch, who would rip into your flesh and feed on your blood or snap your necks at the earliest opportunity. Cunning manipulator and the father of lies. Why spend a second reflecting on Spike's bullshit concerning the things the bleached vamp couldn't have known better than you? True, the Scoobies were unaware 'bout Spikey's little deal with the devil (Adam), but Captain Peroxide didn't have to join together with annoying demonoid to be considered a threat by the gang... That Spike guy. He could be pretty persuasive fella. But all of you (Xander, Willow, Giles, I'm talkin' to you right know) shouldn't have been such a gullible little kids. How could you freaking survive battling the Hellmouth for so long when some bleached asshole can push you around that easy?? Who lobotomized you to buy all the shit about Spike with a chip inside his head becoming somewhat "harmless" and worthy of your trust? Giving him shelter from Pangs 'til A New Man was reckless enough, but... this? The only thing you should have known considering Spikey is him being an enemy. Dangerous enemy. Was that so hard to learn a simple word? Give me "s". Give me "t". Give me "a". Give me "k". Give me "e". S-T-A-K-E. Find it out for yourself what's next. Second. The whole Buffy/Riley/Angel threesome. Less irritating then the "Scoobies start to hate each other, 'coz Spike told them something" storyline, but... The display of that alpha male bullshit wasn't necessary IMO. The last thing Buffy needed at the moment was her former vampire darling to show up in SunnyD only to meet the Slayer's current boyfriend. But it was still more entertaining to watch than Giles getting drunk or Willow/Xander getting angry and fuming. After several months away from heartbroken Buffy (and let us not forget the whole breakup was Captain Forehead's idea) Angel acted like a true jealous guy. Quote Angel: Oh, and . . . Riley. Buffy: Yeah? Angel: I don't like him. Buffy: Thank you. Who cares who or what you like, Angelcakes? You should have stayed in L.A. and mind your own fucking business, Mr. Jealous Guy. 'Cause, you know, you weren't too cooperative, when Buffy came following the whole Faith deal. You decided to pay a visit? Fine. But why making those comments? You expected Buffy to do what? Still drooling over you? Like it or not, but Riley IMO was a giant step ahead for Buffy compared to you Angel-boy. Unlike you, he could make your ex happy living in the light. Spoiler Yeah, Corn-fed Iowa Boy had his moments of suckiness, but none of them could compare with your performance since the second half of your spin-off's season 3, Angelcakes. Wiping out the entire Circle of the Black Thorn only to have your city descending into hell after battling the Senior Partners' army? Not a brilliant idea after all. No offence, but keep that in mind, boy. Mister Billowy Coat King of Pain, duh. Not so much. Third. The massive argument scene. It was quite painful to watch even though the Scoobs had several important issues to be addressed. The case with Giles, unemployed and slightly left behind. Xander's alienation from his two best friends since he wasn't blessed with getting into UC Sunnydale and felt looked down upon. Willow's post-Oz situation, her new interests and other important changes in her life. Buffy's being caught in the crossfire between her duty as a Slayer and need to have a normal life of a young, 19-years-old girl. Those issues had to be discussed, but in a more adult way. JMO. Anyway, kids, Spikey's bullshit is not a reason to neglect years of frienship with people you should have known better. There was however one moment that brought me joy, and guess what. That could be the start of the very beautiful friendship... Anyway I prefer W/X spending more time together than with their significant others :) Quote Buffy: So . . . I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One . . and her friends. If I need help, I'll go to someone I can count on. Spoiler Some foreshadowing of the gang's actual demise in the following seasons?.. You tell me. Overall here's one of the most important messages of the whole ep, Spoiler that the Scoobs sadly didn't get. If they did they could save Buffy the humiliation in season 6. And Spuffy won't eat the whole show. Yeah, I know, it's from another season, but... Edited September 2, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex September 2, 2018 Share September 2, 2018 (edited) The Buffy/Willow 'shipper in me always does love that Spike makes a point of saying that Imaginary!Buffy was "defending" Willow in her "argument" with Imaginary!Xander. Because even if Willow was anxious about how Buffy was taking the news (especially after last episode's awkward "Will"-fest), she'd twig if Spike didn't at least claim that Buffy was making an effort. Quote BUFFY: If I was any more open-minded about the choices you two made, my brains would fall out! SNARKY INTERNET COMMENTS PAGE: Buffy's brains have already fallen out. Answers on a post card for what she's using nowadays. The fault on the fight seems less about the issues involved, but that the writers have been ignoring them for so long. We haven't been dealing with Giles feeling abandoned and purposeless since A New Man, because it's been so important to make jokes about his having the Jonathan swimsuit calendar (shivers!) instead. We haven't dealt with Xander's left-behind "townie" angst since Beer Bad, but we've had plenty of time to have the "funny" sex with Anya. And while we got to see Willow being all awkward about the sexuality thing with Buffy last episode, it's been eleven goddamn episodes since we saw Xander shitting all over her emotions in Something Blue, so the part where she's reluctant to tell Xander about her new girlfriend feels forced, too. The interesting thing is that I don't know what's been taking the place of this character development. It's not as though Buffy/Riley has been exactly filling up the show. And Adam's taken entire episodes off. I guess there's been too much emphasis on MoTWs (and I include Faith as such) and trying to find a way to shoehorn Spike into the cast (Doomed, The I in Team, Goodbye Iowa, WTWTA) that the time that should have been devoted to character development for our four leads has been dropped. And when we get it, it's 'ship-based and externally focused…oooh, Xander and Anya fight a lot! Oooh, why is Tara acting all mysterious! Oooh, look at the Initiative! Ooooh…okay, I got nothing for Giles. Sorry. Meanwhile, the Scoobs have been rotting from the inside and nobody has noticed. Which makes sense in a meta- way (it's exactly the point that Spike makes about Yoko vs. The Beatles in the episode, and what Willow herself says in the argument), but it doesn't make the conflict seem any less forced. JMO. Edited September 2, 2018 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 2, 2018 Author Share September 2, 2018 1 hour ago, nosleepforme said: Because he was preying on their insecurities and people generally don't always respond rationally, when confronted with those. Yeah, but how did he know which buttons to push? Are vampires able to read auras or something? Link to comment
Halting Hex September 2, 2018 Share September 2, 2018 Well, he's been living with Giles, and still pops by regularly for blood. So that's not a hard one. He sees the surreptitious hair-touch between Willow and Tara, and extrapolates. Given that he was just told about the big "rescue Oz" plot last episode (remember, he was actually a part of that, even if he was bullshitting them for his own agenda), it's not too hard for him to imagine why Wolf-Boy didn't stay, and the insecurities Willow might be having. As for Xander, he's had over a hundred years of unlife to become sensitive to class issues. Spoiler Although, as we learn next season, William was not the "Cockney brawler" that David Greenwalt originally conceived the character as and will be retconned into being an upper-class twit. But we become the roles we play, or something such as that. Worked for me, IMO. Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe September 2, 2018 Share September 2, 2018 I hate Spike and seeing the Scoobs be so stupid is a bad sign of things to come but the episode is still worth it just for the super cute scene with Willow, Tara and Miss Kitty Fantastico. Quote Of course they could have questioned where these words were coming from, but at the same time, has Spike actually lied all that much to them before? He's always been a fairly honest/no-bullshit character, saying whatever is on his mind. Maybe the Scoobies should not have doubted their friendships as much instead? Even if I were to agree about Spike being honest, how is he supposed to have heard all those things he said to engineer the quarrel? He is not exactly the confidant of any of the Scoobs at that point. If until that point he had done anything to show that he was trustworthy, the whole plot would have been far easier to accept. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback September 6, 2018 Share September 6, 2018 On 02/09/2018 at 4:46 PM, lembergwatcher said: When I watched the ep for the first time ca 2002 it left me literally speechless (just like Sunnydale's residents in the pivotal Hush). For a long time some evil part of me wanted Doug Petrie sacked (or worse) for even suggesting the Scoobies could be that stupid. You should have had more respect for the people who were fighting everything the Hellmouth threw at them fourth year in a row (and for the audience for that matter), Dougie. First. When did Spike become such a trusted companion to the gang that his words suddenly matter that much? Why the heck are Giles, Xander and Willow all of a sudden start eating crap (about Buffy having no respect for her Watcher anymore, Willow and Buffy dying to see Xander wearing military uniform or Buffy and Xander talking behind Willow's back regarding witchcraft and her new sexual preferences) when literally all they have as proof are Spike's words?? Guys, it's Ssssspike! The bloodsucker. The monster. The ruthless killer, your deadly nemesis, who always wanted each and every one of you dead. The sick son of a bitch, who would rip into your flesh and feed on your blood or snap your necks at the earliest opportunity. Cunning manipulator and the father of lies. Why spend a second reflecting on Spike's bullshit concerning the things the bleached vamp couldn't have known better than you? True, the Scoobies were unaware 'bout Spikey's little deal with the devil (Adam), but Captain Peroxide didn't have to join together with annoying demonoid to be considered a threat by the gang... That Spike guy. He could be pretty persuasive fella. But all of you (Xander, Willow, Giles, I'm talkin' to you right know) shouldn't have been such a gullible little kids. How could you freaking survive battling the Hellmouth for so long when some bleached asshole can push you around that easy?? Who lobotomized you to buy all the shit about Spike with a chip inside his head becoming somewhat "harmless" and worthy of your trust? Giving him shelter from Pangs 'til A New Man was reckless enough, but... this? The only thing you should have known considering Spikey is him being an enemy. Dangerous enemy. Was that so hard to learn a simple word? Give me "s". Give me "t". Give me "a". Give me "k". Give me "e". S-T-A-K-E. Find it out for yourself what's next. Second. The whole Buffy/Riley/Angel threesome. Less irritating then the "Scoobies start to hate each other, 'coz Spike told them something" storyline, but... The display of that alpha male bullshit wasn't necessary IMO. The last thing Buffy needed at the moment was her former vampire darling to show up in SunnyD only to meet the Slayer's current boyfriend. But it was still more entertaining to watch than Giles getting drunk or Willow/Xander getting angry and fuming. After several months away from heartbroken Buffy (and let us not forget the whole breakup was Captain Forehead's idea) Angel acted like a true jealous guy. Who cares who or what you like, Angelcakes? You should have stayed in L.A. and mind your own fucking business, Mr. Jealous Guy. 'Cause, you know, you weren't too cooperative, when Buffy came following the whole Faith deal. You decided to pay a visit? Fine. But why making those comments? You expected Buffy to do what? Still drooling over you? Like it or not, but Riley IMO was a giant step ahead for Buffy compared to you Angel-boy. Unlike you, he could make your ex happy living in the light. Reveal hidden contents Yeah, Corn-fed Iowa Boy had his moments of suckiness, but none of them could compare with your performance since the second half of your spin-off's season 3, Angelcakes. Wiping out the entire Circle of the Black Thorn only to have your city descending into hell after battling the Senior Partners' army? Not a brilliant idea after all. No offence, but keep that in mind, boy. Mister Billowy Coat King of Pain, duh. Not so much. Third. The massive argument scene. It was quite painful to watch even though the Scoobs had several important issues to be addressed. The case with Giles, unemployed and slightly left behind. Xander's alienation from his two best friends since he wasn't blessed with getting into UC Sunnydale and felt looked down upon. Willow's post-Oz situation, her new interests and other important changes in her life. Buffy's being caught in the crossfire between her duty as a Slayer and need to have a normal life of a young, 19-years-old girl. Those issues had to be discussed, but in a more adult way. JMO. Anyway, kids, Spikey's bullshit is not a reason to neglect years of frienship with people you should have known better. There was however one moment that brought me joy, and guess what. That could be the start of the very beautiful friendship... Anyway I prefer W/X spending more time together than with their significant others :) Reveal hidden contents Some foreshadowing of the gang's actual demise in the following seasons?.. You tell me. Overall here's one of the most important messages of the whole ep, Reveal hidden contents that the Scoobs sadly didn't get. If they did they could save Buffy the humiliation in season 6. And Spuffy won't eat the whole show. Yeah, I know, it's from another season, but... I think you have to forgive the Scoobs, Spike is a very subtle Iago and quite switched on to human nature, he's still the outside but he plays them very well, they forget he's evil as This Year's Girl proves. And ultimately the Scoobs are good people who want everyone to get along, they want to be liked by all. I think the whole point of the Riley/Angel/Buffy clash was that it was coming at the worst possible time for Buffy, I liked it though, the end where Angel walks away shows to me that there will always be something between them. Adore the Anya/Tara scene, they have a few like that in the series and they're always charming. On 02/09/2018 at 6:41 PM, nosleepforme said: Eh, don't be so hard on Dougie, the episodes were all broken in a writers' room, where they break the storyline and what every scene is supposed to look like. Because he was preying on their insecurities and people generally don't always respond rationally, when confronted with those. Of course they could have questioned where these words were coming from, but at the same time, has Spike actually lied all that much to them before? He's always been a fairly honest/no-bullshit character, saying whatever is on his mind. Maybe the Scoobies should not have doubted their friendships as much instead? The whole Angel/Riley conflict always felt too staged for me, though I do love Buffy's line about "testosterone poisoning". And the fight between the gang is probably one of the worst confrontations they have ever had, because nobody actually has a real point in it. Which makes sense, given that none of what Spike told them was true, but for a show that usually tends to have such well written fights like in Dead Man's Party and Revelations, I thought this one was lacking and severely underwritten. Though I do love myself Drunk Giles. The fight upset people as the Scoobs are sort of our idealized social group and we don't like to see them fall out (a cliché from sitcoms like Friends to innumerable cop shows). I do love the reaction to Willow's revelation though. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback September 6, 2018 Share September 6, 2018 On 02/09/2018 at 7:03 PM, Halting Hex said: The Buffy/Willow 'shipper in me always does love that Spike makes a point of saying that Imaginary!Buffy was "defending" Willow in her "argument" with Imaginary!Xander. Because even if Willow was anxious about how Buffy was taking the news (especially after last episode's awkward "Will"-fest), she'd twig if Spike didn't at least claim that Buffy was making an effort. The fault on the fight seems less about the issues involved, but that the writers have been ignoring them for so long. We haven't been dealing with Giles feeling abandoned and purposeless since A New Man, because it's been so important to make jokes about his having the Jonathan swimsuit calendar (shivers!) instead. We haven't dealt with Xander's left-behind "townie" angst since Beer Bad, but we've had plenty of time to have the "funny" sex with Anya. And while we got to see Willow being all awkward about the sexuality thing with Buffy last episode, it's been eleven goddamn episodes since we saw Xander shitting all over her emotions in Something Blue, so the part where she's reluctant to tell Xander about her new girlfriend feels forced, too. The interesting thing is that I don't know what's been taking the place of this character development. It's not as though Buffy/Riley has been exactly filling up the show. And Adam's taken entire episodes off. I guess there's been too much emphasis on MoTWs (and I include Faith as such) and trying to find a way to shoehorn Spike into the cast (Doomed, The I in Team, Goodbye Iowa, WTWTA) that the time that should have been devoted to character development for our four leads has been dropped. And when we get it, it's 'ship-based and externally focused…oooh, Xander and Anya fight a lot! Oooh, why is Tara acting all mysterious! Oooh, look at the Initiative! Ooooh…okay, I got nothing for Giles. Sorry. Meanwhile, the Scoobs have been rotting from the inside and nobody has noticed. Which makes sense in a meta- way (it's exactly the point that Spike makes about Yoko vs. The Beatles in the episode, and what Willow herself says in the argument), but it doesn't make the conflict seem any less forced. JMO. I think that's a little harsh, Xander complains he's fed up with Willow's moping but he still loves her, plus remember Willow is harsh to him at The Bronze. On 02/09/2018 at 8:22 PM, Halting Hex said: Well, he's been living with Giles, and still pops by regularly for blood. So that's not a hard one. He sees the surreptitious hair-touch between Willow and Tara, and extrapolates. Given that he was just told about the big "rescue Oz" plot last episode (remember, he was actually a part of that, even if he was bullshitting them for his own agenda), it's not too hard for him to imagine why Wolf-Boy didn't stay, and the insecurities Willow might be having. As for Xander, he's had over a hundred years of unlife to become sensitive to class issues. Hide contents Although, as we learn next season, William was not the "Cockney brawler" that David Greenwalt originally conceived the character as and will be retconned into being an upper-class twit. But we become the roles we play, or something such as that. Worked for me, IMO. Because William the Bloody sensitive poet is still in there somewhere? On 02/09/2018 at 8:29 PM, Jack Shaftoe said: I hate Spike and seeing the Scoobs be so stupid is a bad sign of things to come but the episode is still worth it just for the super cute scene with Willow, Tara and Miss Kitty Fantastico. Even if I were to agree about Spike being honest, how is he supposed to have heard all those things he said to engineer the quarrel? He is not exactly the confidant of any of the Scoobs at that point. If until that point he had done anything to show that he was trustworthy, the whole plot would have been far easier to accept. And hence the term 'Tara's Kittens' was born. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback September 6, 2018 Share September 6, 2018 The Good; Love the fact that when the argument starts Tara and Anya head to the bathroom, they have a few scenes like this together through the series, the newcomers to the Scooby gang bonding. Miss Kitty is the cutest ever. Lovely to see Angel and Buffy make up. The Bad; Spike can't even hold a fake gun without getting pain, so how come he's able to get Spoiler his shotgun out in season 5? Best line; Buffy; "Xander? Oh he's the deadest man in deadonia!" Women good/men bad; Buffy refers to Riley and Angel suffering from 'testosterone poisoning'. Jeez!; Poor Forrest gets skewered. Kinky dinky; Anya declares Xander a 'Viking in the sack'. As she is from medieval Sweden that's quite a compliment and once again suggests she enjoys rough/exotic sex (as we'll see later Spoiler with Spike). Xander used to work at a telephone sex line. Calling Captain Subtext; Xander used to work at a telephone sex line. You know I've never seen one advertised for straight women, was this a gay sex line? Willow refers to Tara as her girlfriend for the first time. Spike twigs Will/Tara long before Xander/Giles do. Wicca is once more used as a euphemism for lesbianism. Buffy asks Forrest if the Initiative is a 'boys club'. Spike seems to have a high opinion of Buffy. Willow talks of doing 'drama' which Spoiler foreshadows Restless. Willow refers to the umbilical chord between Xander and Anya, jealousy rising. Guantanamo Bay; The demons are starting to rip one another apart and the Colonel really doesn't care. Apocalypses; 5, Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander 1 Scoobies knocked out: Buffy trips and falls like a horror heroine Buffy: 16 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 5 Faith: 1 Joyce: 2 Wes: 1 Kills: Buffy: 79 vamps, 27 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 4 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 12 vamps + 6 demons Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 2 Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3 Recurring characters killed: Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh Total number of scoobies: 7 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Riley, Tara Xander demon magnet: 5 Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?) Scoobies shot: Riley threatens Angel with his pistol saying it's 'all he's got left'. Forrest zaps Adam but it only makes him stronger. Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny Buffy: 3; Angel, Parker, Riley Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, possibly Ted Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Questions and observations; Lovely to see Angel back, lovely to see his reconciliation with Buffy. Sorry Spuffers BuffyandAngel4ever. Angel can defeat Riley in single combat, even with all Riley's hi-tech gear. Xander's famous big mouth makes another appearance. In later seasons this role will be Spoiler taken over by Dawn. Adam likes 'Helter Skelter' which is the Beatles song Charles Manson cited for the motivation for his infamous massacre. Their plans are somewhat similar, Manson wanted to ferment a race war which his 'family' would survive by hiding out in the desert and then emerge to rule the world. Riley refers to Angel as 'Mr Billowy-Coat King of Pain' and thinks girls like that. More than Gary Cooper in camouflage actually. Spike is 100% right of course, what makes Buffy different and more successful than all the other Slayers is that she has her friends and family around her. Marks out of 10; 6/10 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 6, 2018 Share September 6, 2018 Since I've found the trove of promos on YT: Tuesdays are for Testosterone Poisoning, it seems. Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 One thing crossed my mind the other day. Isn't our beloved Willow supposed to be too intelligent to buy Spikey's very obvious crap? Since when do Buffy and Xander spend so much time together to constantly talk behind their friend's back? Spike's bullshit seems even more absurd if we remember Buffy spending way more time with Willow than with Xander throughout both seasons 3 and 4. I can't recall too many Buffy/Xander scenes either in the season 3 or the season 4 (The Freshman and Beer Bad coming to mind as a few exceptions to that rule), but I do recall plenty of Buffy/Willow scenes in each season. My theory is Buffy seems to hold a grudge against Xander after events depicted in DMP and Revelations and thus clearly prefers Willow's, Giles', Joyce's or her current boyfriend's company. As of The Yoko Factor she's caught between slaying, studying and Riley 99% of her time. How do she and Xander manage to sneak behind Willow's back and discuss her new relationship so often?? If anything, Spike's words for Xander, considering his current status, theoretically have more credibility, than the far-fetched rubbish he tries to sell the redhead. Link to comment
Melancholy December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: One thing crossed my mind the other day. Isn't our beloved Willow supposed to be too intelligent to buy Spikey's very obvious crap? Since when do Buffy and Xander spend so much time together to constantly talk behind their friend's back? Spike's bullshit seems even more absurd if we remember Buffy spending way more time with Willow than with Xander throughout both seasons 3 and 4. I can't recall too many Buffy/Xander scenes either in the season 3 or the season 4 (The Freshman and Beer Bad coming to mind as a few exceptions to that rule), but I do recall plenty of Buffy/Willow scenes in each season. My theory is Buffy seems to hold a grudge against Xander after events depicted in DMP and Revelations and thus clearly prefers Willow's, Giles', Joyce's or her current boyfriend's company. As of The Yoko Factor she's caught between slaying, studying and Riley 99% of her time. How do she and Xander manage to sneak behind Willow's back and discuss her new relationship so often?? If anything, Spike's words for Xander, considering his current status, theoretically have more credibility, than the far-fetched rubbish he tries to sell the redhead. I buy Spike manipulating Willow. Willow very recently came out to Buffy- which was considerably more scary back in 2000. Even today, a close friend coming out as gay is huge news...the kind that friends in a group would have to gossip to the other's about. I completely buy that Willow would be extremely sensitive about anything that could be perceived as her friends bashing her for being gay. Moreover, Willow has skills in magic and technology which naturally come up in Scooby conversations. Buffy has disparaged her witchy skills to her face this season. ("Your basic spells are usually only 50/50.") Frankly, I find all of the Scoobies very un-supportive of Willow's R&D in magic when it's loaded with potential just because her powers are necessarily limited as a beginner. It's all so easy to joke about the pencil floating in the early seasons but then when Willow does develop as a witch mostly on her own, be all "You're my big gun" demanding. It's very natural for Willow to believe that Xander and Buffy would have such a conversation in private that Willow wastes her time with magical bullshit when they have a technological villain on their hands. Buffy hangs with Xander alone in Goodbye Iowa as well as The Freshman/Beer Bad. However, I don't think Buffy had to hang with Xander for Spike's words to have credibility. Buffy and Xander are still friends, even though I agree that Buffy held a grudge against Xander and had pushed him away in S3-4. Even still, I still think they're friends and it's entirely plausible that they'd end up hanging out and saying critical things about Willow. Edited December 10, 2018 by Melancholy 2 Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Melancholy said: It's very natural for Willow to believe that Xander and Buffy would have such a conversation in private that Willow wastes her time with magical bullshit when they have a technological villain on their hands. Even though Buffy/Xander schedules indicate them having conversations in private is an extremely unlikely possibility. 15 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Buffy hangs with Xander alone in Goodbye Iowa You mean, in the Initiative headquarters? They're on a mission. I have a problem with calling it "hanging around", you know. 20 minutes ago, Melancholy said: However, I don't think Buffy had to hang with Xander for Spike's words to have credibility. Well, I agree. They have acess to both phone service and the internet. But I have another question to ask: who is Spike to have any credibility even regarding such a sensitive issue? Spike is a liar. He's also an enemy who attempted to kill Willow thirteen episodes earlier. Shouldn't Willow have a little more faith in her two best friends, rather than some slick perv? How about thinking twice before jumping to conclusions? 31 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Buffy and Xander are still friends Sorry, I don't see it that way. 33 minutes ago, Melancholy said: it's entirely plausible that they'd end up hanging out and saying critical things about Willow. It's even more plausible that Buffy ends up discussing Willow-shaped issues with, say, Giles rather than Xander. I don't think she values Xander's opinion that much, after all. Link to comment
Halting Hex December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 I think everybody had a reason to feel excluded from their perspective, even if the outside eye might think that Willow was askew in her "you two are the two who are the two; I'm the other one" assessment. Xander has his townie angst, whereas Willow is "into the new thing". And Buffy, as always, chooses "to whine and pout and feel the burden of Slayerness", to quote Fuffy. So each of the three of them has their own reason for thinking the other two are closer than he/she is to either one. After all, it's not as if Willow knows where Buffy is while Willow is locked away in Tara's room; for all she knows, Buffy's been hanging out with Xander all the time. (Certainly Buffy tolerates Anya at least marginally better than Willow does.) And she doesn't know that Buffy's been casting lonely and longing glances at Willow's empty bed (hehe…) because, obviously, Willow hasn't been there to see them. Likewise, Xander thinks Buffy and Willow are having all these "girly-best-friend chats" about X joining the Army because he doesn't have a clue that B/W are spending so little time in Stevenson 214 that they're seeing more of Amy-rat than they are of each other. And hey, Giles isn't seeing any of them regularly. So, yeah, Spike wouldn't normally be the most reliable source, but there's confirmation bias at work, IMO. 1 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: One thing crossed my mind the other day. Isn't our beloved Willow supposed to be too intelligent to buy Spikey's very obvious crap? Since when do Buffy and Xander spend so much time together to constantly talk behind their friend's back? Spike's bullshit seems even more absurd if we remember Buffy spending way more time with Willow than with Xander throughout both seasons 3 and 4. I can't recall too many Buffy/Xander scenes either in the season 3 or the season 4 (The Freshman and Beer Bad coming to mind as a few exceptions to that rule), but I do recall plenty of Buffy/Willow scenes in each season. My theory is Buffy seems to hold a grudge against Xander after events depicted in DMP and Revelations and thus clearly prefers Willow's, Giles', Joyce's or her current boyfriend's company. As of The Yoko Factor she's caught between slaying, studying and Riley 99% of her time. How do she and Xander manage to sneak behind Willow's back and discuss her new relationship so often?? If anything, Spike's words for Xander, considering his current status, theoretically have more credibility, than the far-fetched rubbish he tries to sell the redhead. I don't buy that, we're talking a question of insecurities not intelligence. Her relationship with Tara may also make her a little nervous. 7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Even though Buffy/Xander schedules indicate them having conversations in private is an extremely unlikely possibility. You mean, in the Initiative headquarters? They're on a mission. I have a problem with calling it "hanging around", you know. Well, I agree. They have acess to both phone service and the internet. But I have another question to ask: who is Spike to have any credibility even regarding such a sensitive issue? Spike is a liar. He's also an enemy who attempted to kill Willow thirteen episodes earlier. Shouldn't Willow have a little more faith in her two best friends, rather than some slick perv? How about thinking twice before jumping to conclusions? Sorry, I don't see it that way. It's even more plausible that Buffy ends up discussing Willow-shaped issues with, say, Giles rather than Xander. I don't think she values Xander's opinion that much, after all. Yes Buffy and Xander are friends, why wouldn't they be? Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Yes Buffy and Xander are friends, why wouldn't they be? Because Xander dared not be jubilant about General Butt Naked return and the whole Bangel thing in the previous season, and had a nerve to reveal Buffy's dirty little secret, exposed her for who she really is (a rotten liar who has no respect for her Watcher and doesn't give a damn about her friends safety when it comes to her current boyfriend), made her defend herself to Giles and the others. Is it enough? Edited December 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 Even if Buffy and Xander had been complaining about Tara, I find it very hard to believe that Willow would buy that Spike would have been privy to such conversations. 3 Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I think everybody had a reason to feel excluded from their perspective W, X, G and everyone else have their God-given right for whatever insecurities or suspiciousness they feel. They have lots of reasons to believe "the other two are closer than he/she is to either one" or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that before jumping to a hasty conclusion like "My friends definitely trash talk me behind my back for being into the new thing/think I'm some sort of useless lunk who has to join the army to achieve anything/treat me like a lousy drunk or retired librarian who cannot be taken seriously" and so on a person with a smidgen of common sense should look around and see who's talking. The fact all that stuff comes out of Spike's stinky mouth alone is enough reason for the alarm bells to start ringing inside X/W/G heads immediately. I can understand their anxiety if they had someone else as the source of information, not the undead creature with murderous intentions. How about giving your friends - the ones who helped you fight the good fight for four years - the benefit of the doubt?? If it's that easy for something like Captain Peroxide to just come and say some nasty things and trigger the rift between old friends as a result, then something is seriously wrong with the Scooby Gang. I don't think none of the Scoobs had a reason to feel excluded or whatever. I just hate the idea it had to be their sworn enemy's bullshit to turn them against Buffy and each other. Instead of thinking something like "how dare my so-called friends to..." Giles, Willow and Xander should ask themselves: "Why does that bleached fucker still walk the earth?" first and foremost. You may feel bad about the way you think your friends are treating you. Doesn't mean you have to believe the enemy like you're some blind sheep. Edited December 10, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said: Even if Buffy and Xander had been complaining about Tara, I find it very hard to believe that Willow would buy that Spike would have been privy to such conversations. Exactly. Even if B/X are not so positive about "the new thing" I doubt they are that careless or stupid to discuss the issue while Spike's hanging around. Link to comment
Halting Hex December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: If it's that easy for something like Captain Peroxide to just come and say some nasty things and trigger the rift between old friends as a result, then something is seriously wrong with the Scooby Gang. Well, yes. That's rather the point of the episode. And the season-arc. And what Spike says, explicitly, about Yoko and the Beatles, in the episode. Spike is evil. Yoko's annoying. (We had a poster on TWoP whose username was "AimingForYoko"; I wonder if Chapman could have gotten leniency if he'd used that defense?) But if the Scoobs had still been the Scoobs, if the Beatles had still been the Beatles, none of it would have mattered. If Buffy hadn't made so little effort to keep Giles in the loop that Spike knew about the Initiative before Giles did, then Giles wouldn't have been reduced to masturbating with his guitar and wouldn't be so ready to believe any nonsense Spike might pour in his ear. If Buffy and Willow hadn't gone off to college and left Xander in the basement "to—" (rot? die? He never finishes that sentence in the argument), then Xander wouldn't have found it so easy to believe the girls wanted him out of town, not just out of sight. If Willow hadn't been so disappointed that the "normal" boyfriend she'd always hoped Buffy would have (she liked Angel, but as she says in The Prom, she was just trying to hope for the best, there) was now sucking up all of her time, then she wouldn't have gone fetal and held on to Tara as "something that's just mine", afraid of being judged and rejected. If Buffy hadn't noticed Willow's disappearance from her life and perhaps felt somewhat rejected that Willow had gone "exploring" without even telling her, then she wouldn't have been bitching about how she had to be "open-minded" wrt W/X's relationship choices. (So Willow liking girls is like Xander fucking a demon, is that it, Buff? Between you and Riley, which one is supposed to be the "bigot", again?) "Consider the source" only works when there's nothing to consider. Spike might have been lying about the details…but he had the general picture fucking nailed, IMO. Edited December 10, 2018 by Halting Hex 2 Link to comment
Melancholy December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 (edited) To add, Willow and Xander weren't even going to say anything before the fight. They listened to what Spike said and harbored their suspicion and hurt but they were actively trying to help Buffy by Willow trying to crack the computer discs and Xander earnestly offering to help Buffy fight Adam. (Giles was the most immature by choosing this time before a Scooby meeting to get falling down drunk.) However, Buffy started acting right in accordance with Spike's gossip. She was rudely barking at Willow to decrypt the discs even though they'd barely been in Willow's possession like somehow Willow was the deficient one for not being able to crack the "easy as...really difficult pie" discs. Willow kind of gave Buffy a chance to speak for herself as a good, appreciative friend when Willow asked "Why do you need me?" and Buffy couldn't resist unknowingly copying Spike's accusations by snarking that Willow is "usually" good with computers and there's vague "witch stuff." She just had her ass handed to her by Adam but she was stubbornly refusing to accept Xander's offer to help her fight. Instead, Buffy was making a whole crusade that ONLY SHE could face Adam. All of that plus Spike's comments triggered W/X into fighting with Buffy because she was basically acting like Spike said she was speaking behind their backs. Edited December 10, 2018 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 18 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: "Consider the source" only works when there's nothing to consider. Spike might have been lying about the details…but he had the general picture fucking nailed, Sometimes the speaker's persona is more important than what is being said. Even if Spike had the general picture nailed and the things weren't good with the Scooby Gang, don't you think it was foolish and suicidal thing to act the way they acted at the end of an episode? What if Spike came the next day and told Willow Xander and Buffy were plotting to kill Tara? True, their anxieties and insecurities didn't just come out of thin air. But even if the things weren't that good between the Core Four, why assume the worst about people you call friends? If anything, Buffy and Willow started shutting Xander out long before going off to college and he was apparently totally ok with that. Therefore I find it hard to understand how could everything suddenly become such an issue for Xander after almost a year of alienation from his (former?) best friends? He had a perfect opportunity to voice his concerns post-Fear, Itself, but chose to keep his mouth shut for sixteen episodes! And weren't Buffy and Giles supposed to have a conversation at the end of A New Man after Willow intervened as Giles' spokesperson? As for Willow, she'd finally found her true love who kept her occupied most of the time thus easing the pain of knowing Buffy had less and less time for her best friend. JMO, of course. Link to comment
Melancholy December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 (edited) I wouldn't say Willow/Giles/Xander were suicidal. They can challenge how Buffy treats them while fighting evil at the same time. I disagree with a notion that the gang can't criticize Buffy or they let the terrorists/evil win. As I said in my last post, Buffy deliberately pushed away the gang's help in a fight before the fight even began in The Yoko Factor. So, Giles and Xander were just as adrift before and after the fight without a strategy where they can support Buffy's slayer powers in a fight. Willow had her discs to decrypt and in one of her Underrated Moments of Awesome, Willow continues decrypting the discs (and for that matter, Cordelia's W&H discs over on Angel) even if she's in a fight with Buffy because of the greater stakes. No one was abandoning the fight. Actually, I think you can make the argument that the Scoobies' actually airing their grievances and forcing Buffy to pay attention resulted in her taking them seriously and inviting them to participate in the fight against Adam where she was previously barring them from participating before the Scooby-squabble even occurred. Because it did take the Core Four to take down Adam. I can understand how Xander felt abandoned but IMO, a lot of that abandonment just came from the logistics that he wasn't in school with the girls anymore. IMO, Willow went more out of her way to hang with Xander than he went out of his way to hang with her. Willow specifically treked down to the basement to get Xander's advice in Wild at Heart- where Xander barely asked any questions about Oz, made fun of Willow for how she referred to sex, and then, concluded with no information that Willow's suspicions of Oz were baseless. Willow goes to Xander's basement again to yes, whine about Oz after insulting Xander at the Bronze, but Xander is just completely uninterested in being emotionally supportive of Willow at all. Xander and Willow hang amiably in Doomed where again, Willow goes to his basement to watch TV and hang at the end of the ep, flummoxed by Spike's eagerness to go Fight that Evil. In The I in Team, Willow goes to hang with Xander and she's so committed to hanging with him that she plays poker and tolerates Anya's presence even though both of those things are irritating to her. I think that's where Willow's "Do you think the umbilical cord between you and Anya could stretch that far?" because yeah, it's profoundly annoying that Willow schlepped over to Xander's basement and couldn't even get quality time with him without Anya attached. In the same ep, Willow tries to arrange a Buffy/Willow/Xander reunion at the Bronze like old times but Buffy's preoccupied with the Initiative boys and Xander's preoccupied with Anya so as a last resort, Willow goes to Tara and kind of gives up her efforts to reach out to Xander specifically. However, by contrast, Xander goes to visit UC Sunnydale but his focus is pretty much always Buffy over Willow. As for Buffy/Giles, they both behaved badly. Yes, Buffy, prompted by Willow, sits down with Giles at the end of A New Man. However, she makes a promise that she's going to tell him everything and that she's not "dating the Initiative." However then, by the next episode, Buffy proceeds to...."date the Initiative" and basically joins their army until Maggie betrays her. Giles doesn't get to emote his issues here but I could see how he'd privately feel a little jerked around and confused. Then, Buffy doesn't work on their relationship together. However, I do think Giles is worse than Willow/Xander in the fight. As I said, it was wrong of him to get falling down drunk before a Scooby meeting. It was mean for Giles to taunt that Adam is going to kick Buffy's ass because she doesn't train with him anymore after Buffy's ass had already been kicked and frankly, I never saw Giles try to reach out to Buffy to set up a new training regimen without the high school/library structure. Edited December 10, 2018 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: I wouldn't say Willow/Giles/Xander were suicidal. They can challenge how Buffy treats them while fighting evil at the same time. I disagree with a notion that the gang can't criticize Buffy or they let the terrorists/evil win. I didn't mean it that way. Believing Spike's word is suicidal, not criticizing Buffy. I'm totally for criticizing Buffy when she deserves it. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: Willow specifically treked down to the basement to get Xander's advice in Wild at Heart- where Xander barely asked any questions about Oz, made fun of Willow for how she referred to sex, and then, concluded with no information that Willow's suspicions of Oz were baseless. You probably remember that the scene in Wild at Heart was the first W/X scene in quite a long time? And how do you expect Xander to act in that particular moment? You want him to be jubilant and dance the Snoopy dance solely because Willow finally remembered she had a Xander-shaped friend? Willow barely acknowledged Xander's existence when everything was rosy in her and Oz's garden. Only when the problems started to arise she decided it was time to pay Xander a visit. Thanks, Willow for condescending to speak to the basement boy. And how could Xander question Wolfboy's loyalty if he was brainwashed to believe Oz was such a cool guy, a true gentleman and God's gift to Willow and everyone around? How could he say Willow's suspicions were justifiable when Oz appeared to be so much better and way ahead of him that Willow herself was willing to throw their friendship under the bus, telling Xander to back off less than a year before? True, he didn't have enough information, but probably because no one bothered telling him. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: Willow goes to Xander's basement again to yes, whine about Oz after insulting Xander at the Bronze, but Xander is just completely uninterested in being emotionally supportive of Willow at all. Well, I too can be very uninterested and unsupportive of people who insult me for no apparent reason. Does that make me a monster or a bad person? I think Xander's lack of support could be explained by the bitterness he still felt over the events of the previous season, i.e. "no touching rule" and the fact that Willow and Buffy were so preoccupied with college life and left him behind. And, you know, I don't remember Willow being too supportive of Xander after Faith and Angel nearly got him killed. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: In The I in Team, Willow goes to hang with Xander and she's so committed to hanging with him that she plays poker and tolerates Anya's presence even though both of those things are irritating to her. She tolerates Anya just like Xander tolerated Oz a year before (even though he probably didn't have warm feelings for the Wolfboy either). What's the big deal? 3 hours ago, Melancholy said: it's profoundly annoying that Willow schlepped over to Xander's basement and couldn't even get quality time with him without Anya attached. In the same ep, Willow tries to arrange a Buffy/Willow/Xander reunion at the Bronze like old times but Buffy's preoccupied with the Initiative boys and Xander's preoccupied with Anya Annoying? Yes. As a huge Anya-hater I fully agree with that statement. But here's the funny thing: it was totally OK for Willow to be preoccupied with Oz while he was still around, but Xander's preoccupation with Anya appeared to be some sort of "betrayal" (for Willow and most fans at least). What about W/X quality time in the previous season? Late night phone conversations, doing homework together, "A Charlie Brown Christmas" and a Snoopy dance. All of that went down the drain since Willow became obsessed with earning Oz's forgiveness. Those double standards, I really like them. 3 hours ago, Melancholy said: Willow goes to Tara and kind of gives up her efforts to reach out to Xander specifically It's always easy to give up on someone else rather than reflect upon your own past and present actions. Sigh. It seems like Xander had to be there whenever Buffy and Willow needed him, and disappear in a blink of an eye the moment they didn't, when other (worthier) craved for their attention. Link to comment
Melancholy December 10, 2018 Share December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: I didn't mean it that way. Believing Spike's word is suicidal, not criticizing Buffy. I'm totally for criticizing Buffy when she deserves it. Merely believing a poor narrator is not suicidal. You only get to connect it to "suicidal" if the gang lets Spike's words affect their fight against evil/apocalypse. They did not. Quote You probably remember that the scene in Wild at Heart was the first W/X scene in quite a longtime? And how do you expect Xander to act in that particular moment? You want him to be jubilant and dance the Snoopy dance solely because Willow finally remembered she had a Xander-shaped friend? Willow barely acknowledged Xander's existence when everything was rosy in her and Oz's garden. Only when the problems started to arise she decided it was time to pay Xander a visit. Thanks, Willow for condescending to speak to the basement boy. And how could Xander question Wolfboy's loyalty if he was brainwashed to believe Oz was such a cool guy, a true gentleman and God's gift to Willow and everyone around? How could he say Willow's suspicions were justifiable when Oz appeared to be so much better and way ahead of him that Willow herself was willing to throw their friendship under the bus, telling Xander to back off less than a year before? True, he didn't have enough information, but probably because no one bothered telling him. I don't see how you can accuse Willow of not remember that Xander was her friend until WAH or whatever. We start to see a fissure in the Willow/Xander relationship after the Fluke. Willow tells Xander not to put his hand on her tights-clad thigh as she wants to get back together with Oz (and he's been saying that he wants to get back together with Cordelia.) We don't really see Willow/Xander scenes for the remainder of S3 until The Zeppo where Willow tells Xander that she loves him. Then, they didn't spend the summer together because Xander chose to go on a road-trip for the entire summer. There's an indication that they're less close mainly because Willow seems to feel that lack of closeness so intimately when she learns that Xander had with Faith but didn't tell her about it. There's no equivalent S3 scene where Xander cries because he feels less close to Willow. We never get post-Fluking S3 scenes of either Willow or Xander trying to get one-on-one time with each other so I'm left to assume the even-handed explanation that they mutually decided to back away from their extreme closeness but remain general friends. And given that they were still friends even though not as close, YES, I expect Xander to take an interest when Willow comes to him with a problem. I expect him to not make fun of how she refers to sex when she seems distraught. I expect him to ask more than two questions before dismissing her concerns. I don't even know what to do with your assertion that Xander couldn't participate in this conversation because Oz "brainwashed" him. I guess your complaining about the writing on a Doylist level but expecting me to have to defeat that assertion on a Wastsonian level? That doesn't fly at all. Oz didn't brainwash Xander. Full stop. Xander can hear a "I think Oz is cheating on me. What do I do?" confiding-conversation from Willow with an independent mind. Similarly after Oz left, I expect Xander to be able to stand some time comforting Willow after she lost her first love and is coming to him for comfort. As for Faith/Angel, what even? When? Are you referring to when Angel knocked Xander out in Enemies? Willow immediately ran over to Xander with concern when he showed up with his black eye in Enemies. Beyond that, what could she do? The whole sting-operation in Enemies was completely outside of Willow's control and she was just as much on the outside as Xander. Faith was outed as Public Enemy #2 (after The Mayor) so the gang would be going after her ass shortly. Because Angel hadn't lost his soul, he was unslayable and this sting-operation was blessed/created by Buffy/Giles at the center of the group. I don't know if Willow also sarcastically thinks of it as a "good bruise." However, her opinions here mean nothing because she was also outside of the important sting operation- and I think Willow definitely acts like she knows this. If you're referring to Faith trying to suffocate Xander, well then, Willow did go out on a limb and she was the only one to call for Faith being imprisoned mostly because of that. And it was pretty much precedent in Willow's opinions meaning nothing in terms of actually crafting Scooby-policy (even though, that was ultimately the solution to Faith later on). Buffy, primarily, and Giles, a distant secondarily, run the show in actually crafting Scooby-policy on this matters of import especially in S3. I don't think that's fair but it's what it is. But you know who did have the power to isolate/punish someone for just trying to murder their best friend? Xander could not taken Anya to the prom after Anya just tried to kill Willow mere weeks before. Quote Annoying? Yes. As a huge Anya-hater I fully agree with that statement. But here's the funny thing: it was totally OK for Willow to be preoccupied with Oz while he was still around, but Xander's preoccupation with Anya appeared to be some sort of "betrayal" (for Willow and most fans at least). What about W/X quality time in the previous season? Late night phone conversations, doing homework together, "A Charlie Brown Christmas" and a Snoopy dance. All of that went down the drain since Willow became obsessed with earning Oz's forgiveness. Those double standards, I really like them. Xander distrusted Oz in Phases but they were friends by the end of S2/start of S3. Xander had his own lunch with Oz (The Zeppo) or hung with him on Scooby projects (Gingerbread, Choices, Living Conditions) or bonded over comic book trivia (Helpless). And why not? You may have antipathy to Oz but generally, he's an amiable, quiet fellow who mostly says nice or funny things. He's generally nice to Xander. It's a far cry from Anya who never shuts up about delighting in her grisly murders over the last 1000 years, glorifying in her greed, insulting everyone around her especially Willow, or grossing out everyone, including Xander, by sharing every detail of their sex life. Oz is inoffensive company. Anya is highly offensive company. Heck, the poker game in The I In Team pretty much became mostly about Anya hoping to evade capture for her thousand-years of murder and mayhem because she makes everything about her. Of course, Willow would be irritated with the evening. I particularly share Willow's frustration because I relate. When I commute to spend time with a friend at their home, I want quality time with the friend. I've been in that situation where I've commuted to be with a friend but the friend invited their obnoxious, overbearing SO and it crowds out the quality time. It's annoying AF. Xander should have known that Willow came to his house to spend time with him, not Anya and pushed his date to another time if he was that lonely for friendship. The "umbilical cord" insult was on-point- even if hypocritical because come S5. I found that Willow had an umbilical cord relationship with Tara. I never saw a similar situation where Xander went to Willow's house to spend time with her but Oz was there being overbearing and making the conversation all about him. Xander spent time with Oz, either from his own choice or as part of the larger Scooby-group. Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 10, 2018 Author Share December 10, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: But you know who did have the power to isolate/punish someone for just trying to murder their best friend? Xander could not taken Anya to the prom after Anya just tried to kill Willow mere weeks before. I agree. But there are few problems. The geniuses responsible for "crafting Scooby-policy" somehow failed to take care of Anya in a proper way after sending Vamp!Willow back to the Wishverse. Furthermore, Xander's so-called friends dismissed the whole thing as a mere joke after learning about his prom date. The boy didn't have much choice, after all. Either spending the prom night at home listening to country music or going on his own. I don't remember any girls in SHS showing interest in Xander at that moment. And while I totally agree that bringing Anya to the prom was one of Xander's dumbest decisions, I do not recall Buffy, Willow or anyone else raising objections on the matter. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: Xander distrusted Oz in Phases but they were friends by the end of S2/start of S3. Xander had his own lunch with Oz (The Zeppo) or hung with him on Scooby projects (Gingerbread, Choices, Living Conditions) or bonded over comic book trivia (Helpless). Being civil to one another, communicating or working together aren't exactly the signs of "friendship". They tolerated each other's presence in Willow's life - that's all. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: You may have antipathy to Oz but generally, he's an amiable, quiet fellow who mostly says nice or funny things. He's generally nice to Xander. It's a far cry from Anya who never shuts up about delighting in her grisly murders over the last 1000 years, glorifying in her greed, insulting everyone around her especially Willow, or grossing out everyone, including Xander, by sharing every detail of their sex life. Oz is inoffensive company. Anya is highly offensive company. Well I do have antipathy to Oz. Though I do appreciate him not tearing Xander apart after the Fluke but that's hardly enough to give him a higher score in my book. Yes, he was a nice fella compared to Anya because he kept his mouth shut most of the time. OTOH he followed Willow like a shadow every step of the way (what with the "umbilical cord" may I ask?). And though Xander was an awful friend and had a bad taste in women, why did the good guys like Buffy/Willow/Giles tolerate obnoxious Anya's entire existence? They were so afraid of Xander's possible reaction they couldn't tell him Anya's presence was undesirable? They had lots of opportunities and a legitimate right to get rid of Anya anytime and yet... 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: I particularly share Willow's frustration I share her frustration too, but I guess some naughty cat got poor Willow's tongue. If Anya's presence was so offensive/unbearable to our Wicca, she could either try to talk to Xander or discuss some counter measures with Giles and Buffy. As a gifted witch she could have squashed Anya like an insect if she wanted to, but decided not to do it for some unknown reason. In which case she didn't mind Anya being around at all. Well, that's too bad, 'cause no Anya = no problems and saving lots of nerve cells in my case. 2 hours ago, Melancholy said: I never saw a similar situation where Xander went to Willow's house to spend time with her but Oz was there being overbearing and making the conversation all about him. Probably because no one invited Xander to Willow's house anymore? I understand that everything supposed to be Xander's fault (as usual), but the thing is: he was by no means the only decision maker in the gang. The rest of the Core Four had a voice either, but chose to remain silent. And if they were OK with bitchy Anya and all her antics (or simply didn't care), why shouldn't Xander be? Edited December 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 11, 2018 Author Share December 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Melancholy said: Similarly after Oz left, I expect Xander to be able to stand some time comforting Willow after she lost her first love and is coming to him for comfort. "You have gross emotional problems" (Willow to Xander in Innocence). Some people have issues with showing emotions (including comfort) and not because they're callous or something. Xander's emotional problems weren't entirely his fault considering his upbringing and home life. So it's no wonder Xander wasn't that supportive. Or maybe he hold serious grudges against other Scoobs after season 3... Link to comment
Melancholy December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: I agree. But there are few problems. The geniuses responsible for "crafting Scooby-policy" somehow failed to take care of Anya in a proper way after sending Vamp!Willow back to the Wishverse. Furthermore, Xander's so-called friends dismissed the whole thing as a mere joke after learning about his prom date. The boy didn't have much choice, after all. Either spending the prom night at home listening to country music or going on his own. I don't remember any girls in SHS showing interest in Xander at that moment. And while I totally agree that bringing Anya to the prom was one of Xander's dumbest decisions, I do not recall Buffy, Willow or anyone else raising objections on the matter. I share her frustration too, but I guess some naughty cat got poor Willow's tongue. If Anya's presence was so offensive/unbearable to our Wicca, she could either try to talk to Xander or discuss some counter measures with Giles and Buffy. As a gifted witch she could have squashed Anya like an insect if she wanted to, but decided not to do it for some unknown reason. In which case she didn't mind Anya being around at all. Well, that's too bad, 'cause no Anya = no problems and saving lots of nerve cells in my case. Anya was human after Doppelgangland. The Scoobies have a rule about not executing humans for past crimes. I believe that Anya had both the body and the legal paper work to also render her a human in the eyes of California. That's why she can't buy a friggin' beer- she's a 17/18 year old girl. So, the Scoobies don't want to break California law either. So the most ostensibly sensible way to deal with Anya is to just force her to live out her human life, find some way of surviving with her alien-personality on her own. But the Scoobies who knew she was a mass-murderer shouldn't date her or accept her into the group. That was the Scooby mentality at the end of S3 until she asked Xander to the prom. Willow did raise objections to Xander dating her in The Prom, but they were raised lightly and snarkily as opposed to earnestly and sadly. IMO, Willow already felt exposed as jealous re: Faith and didn't want to put her heart on the line again. I think Xander could have found another date if he asked a girl out. He's good-looking and funny. But look, I feel sympathy for Xander in a different direction. I think his parents really f*cked him up and messed with his confidence so that for all of the time that he spends pondering girls and ways to get their attention, he never really asks anyone out other than Buffy after a school year of friendship increasing his confidence. As a result, Xander has big problems going out and trying for stuff that will make him happy but instead, settled for what lands in his lap. He does a heck of job making what lands in his lap livable with a constant smiler and eagerness to help others but it's a sad life set up by abuse at home. I don't make this point to bash Xander but you were bashing Willow by not controlling or yelling at the Enemies sting operation. I do think there ends up being a kind of good logic to Xander dating Anya. At least, he knows who she is and what she's capable of as opposed to if Anya tried dealing with being Strange and Newly Human by seducing some Average Joe who doesn't have the first clue that he's dating with a serial killer. Anya did contribute some historical/mystical knowledge to the Scoobies and it's right that she fight evil (to the extent that she did) instead of keep her 1000+ body/mind in mint condition on the sidelines. But still, we can't get away from how Xander did choose to date and the Scoobies did choose to recruit a serial killer. Quote Being civil to one another, communicating or working together aren't exactly the signs of "friendship". They tolerated each other's presence in Willow's life - that's all. Well I do have antipathy to Oz. Though I do appreciate him not tearing Xander apart after the Fluke but that's hardly enough to give him a higher score in my book. Yes, he was a nice fella compared to Anya because he kept his mouth shut most of the time. OTOH he followed Willow like a shadow every step of the way (what with the "umbilical cord" may I ask?). And though Xander was an awful friend and had a bad taste in women, why did the good guys like Buffy/Willow/Giles tolerate obnoxious Anya's entire existence? They were so afraid of Xander's possible reaction they couldn't tell him Anya's presence was undesirable? They had lots of opportunities and a legitimate right to get rid of Anya anytime and yet... I like Oz. I think Xander did too. Why would Oz and Xander get lunch together alone in The Zeppo if they weren't friends? As Xander pours his heart out to Oz about feeling insecure. There were plenty of Willow-scenes without Oz in S2-4. That's one of Oz's appeal to me as opposed to Tara where I felt there were insufficient Willow-scenes without Tara when they were together in S5-6. Oz had his own friends and band and life. Tara had nothing but Willow/the Scoobies. I also don't think Xander was an awful friend by any means. He just made his share of mistakes- which I pointed out. All things considered, I think Buffy, Willow, and Xander are all good friends to each other in S1-4. Buffy is on shakier ground in S5, but I think she had some irresolvable situations with big trauma in her home. S6-7 are fucked. Edited December 11, 2018 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
Dee December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 (edited) To me, the second half of Season 2 is where the Core 4 relationships really begin to shift. Xander begins the season supertight with Willow, and distant from Buffy; however, by the end of the year, he is really close with Buffy & Cordelia (to the point where he's essentially supplanted Giles as Buffy's second in command). Whereas, during that same time period, Willow is mainly preoccupied with Oz & mourning Jenny. She & Buffy are still fairly close, but nowhere near as close as they once were, pre-Innocence imo. By the time Season 3 rolls around, Cordelia, Xander, Willow & Oz have all seemed to reach a detente in Buffy's absence. After the drama surrounding Buffy's return subsides, Buffy and Willow resume their close relationship (save that brief period Buffy was obsessed with Faith). Xander & Buffy, however, never really recover. He rightfully questions her judgment while she constantly questions his motives. In the aftermath of the-Fluke, Xander grows even further from the Core Group, as Willow & Buffy, especially, grow much closer. Xander's brief dalliances with Faith & Anya are pretty much disregarded, and he essentially becomes a glorified extra. And that particular set of group dynamics (B/W,G,X) remains for the rest of the show IMO. Edited December 11, 2018 by Dee Link to comment
Halting Hex December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Dee said: Whereas, during that same time period [late Season 2], Willow is mainly preoccupied with Oz & mourning Jenny. She & Buffy are still fairly close, but nowhere near as close as they once were, pre-Innocence imo. I can't see this; it was Buffy who pressed for Willow to date Oz, on multiple occasions (What's My Line, Part 2; Surprise), after all, and Willow is giving her a progress report in Phases. (Which I've seen argued is somewhat insensitive, given what Buffy just went through on the relationship front, but maybe Buffy needs to get her mind off of Angel.) Once Willow/Oz officially couple up in Phases, Willow spends the next episode ensorcelled (and before that happens, Buffy's monitoring her telling everybody in the entire school about whom she's dating…) and then Oz is gone for all of Disc 5, returning only for the finale, so I'm not seeing a lot of "Willow apart from Buffy because she's too busy with Oz" going on here. Heck, it's while Oz is out of town that B/W have their sleepover in Passion (which Xander apparently hopes led to some of that "hot Buffy and Willow action", to use Larry's phrase) and Willow being all "comfy" in Buffy's chair at the end of the next episode. I don't really see Willow vanishing from Buffy's life, or anything. If anything, I'd say the more-assertive Xander of the Angelus arc pushes him a bit away from Buffy, as seen by his cheering on Giles's revenge attempt in Passion and his taking up sides against the idea of resouling Angel in Becoming, Part 1. He makes command decisions on his own (be it assigning tasks while Buffy is sick in Killed by Death, going undercover in Go Fish, or biting his lip with "The Lie" in Becoming, Part 2), but while that counts as character growth, I don't see it drawing him closer to Buffy, necessarily. Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 11, 2018 Author Share December 11, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Melancholy said: There's no equivalent S3 scene where Xander cries because he feels less close to Willow. True. But that's because writers decided to portray Xander as a callous dick from then on. He could have gone through his own misery: a) off-screen, b) in his own way that didn't necessary involve crying or something. Also his abusive daddy had probably taught him showing any emotion made person look like a wimp. 15 hours ago, Melancholy said: I don't even know what to do with your assertion that Xander couldn't participate in this conversation because Oz "brainwashed" him. You don't have to do anything. Almost everyone Xander knew, people whose opinion mattered to him back then, made it clear Oz was much better on every level. Oz was portrayed as annoyingly "cool guy" and God's gift to Willow through most of the previous two seasons and thus Xander probably couldn't believe the Wolfboy was capable of cheating on his girlfriend. Also he knew Willow all too well and knew she had a habit of exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion sometimes. 15 hours ago, Melancholy said: Faith was outed as Public Enemy #2 That came later. Before changing sides Faith was allowed to be the part of the gang and continue patrolling like nothing happened. Now imagine what would have happened if she tried to suffocate Oz or Buffy. Willow would have gone to Giles and Wesley and almost screamed at them (the way she did in Reptile Boy when Buffy was caught lying) until they took all necessary measures to subdue the psychotic Slayer. And I totally disagree with the notion that Willow didn't have a say in crafting Scooby policy. Giles respected Willow and valued her opinion. Her intervention led to loosening Giles' grip on Buffy in S.02, after all. 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: Anya was human after Doppelgangland. The Scoobies have a rule about not executing humans for past crimes. There is exception to every rule, I guess. And I didn't mean necessary killing Anya. I mean kicking her ass real hard and asking her to get the hell out of town and never to cross any of the Scoobs' path again. 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: Willow did raise objections to Xander dating her in The Prom, but they were raised lightly and snarkily as opposed to earnestly and sadly. IMO, Willow already felt exposed as jealous re: Faith and didn't want to put her heart on the line again. If Willow couldn't choose whether she was uncomfortable with her friend dating someone who nearly got her killed several eps earlier or afraid to be exposed as jealous, that was by no means Xander's fault. Jealousy? What jealousy? Having near-death experience constituted a pretty good reason to oppose Xander's poor choice vigorously and agressively (i.e. giving Xander a hard slap in the face if needed). 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: I think Xander could have found another date if he asked a girl out. And that girl would've turned out to be some monster in disguise. I can see no textual support for this assumption, 'cause God forbid we might get the impression Xander was not that bad and there were normal girls who could find him attractive. 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: but you were bashing Willow No, no, no, a thousand times no. I love Willow and she's my all-time favorite Buffyverse female character. I just like to remind everyone she was pretty guilty of many things people like to accuse Xander of, and both of them were the two sides of the same coin (their almost identical reaction on Buffy's assumption about Jonathan creating a bizarro world of his own in Superstar proves my point). 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: I think Xander did too. I choose to believe Xander plotted to kill the Wolfboy, but his hasty escape after screwing everything up in WAH foiled those plans. My opinion of Xander would be much higher if he did. 11 hours ago, Melancholy said: Why would Oz and Xander get lunch together alone in The Zeppo if they weren't friends? As Xander pours his heart out to Oz about feeling insecure. Because beggars can't be choosers. Or better a small fish than an empty dish. Who else could he turn to? Giles and Larry? Angel? AFAIK Xander dared to have a lunch with Oz simply because he wanted to know what made Oz look so "cool" and "more useful" in the eyes of the gang and all other people. It wasn't about any friendly feelings towards Oz IMO, but the sense of hopelessness and frustration since Xander found himself "not good enough" to be useful part of the group despite fighting alongside Buffy and the rest for the third year in a row and saving his friends' lives in the past. I think a bad taste in the mouth left post-The Zeppo could have been one of the reasons for Xander's seeming indifference or disinterest in everyone whose name wasn't Anya throughout the fourth season. Some people find it hard to forgive such things, you know. Edited December 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 9:24 AM, lembergwatcher said: Because Xander dared not be jubilant about General Butt Naked return and the whole Bangel thing in the previous season, and had a nerve to reveal Buffy's dirty little secret, exposed her for who she really is (a rotten liar who has no respect for her Watcher and doesn't give a damn about her friends safety when it comes to her current boyfriend), made her defend herself to Giles and the others. Is it enough? As your friend you do fall out but you still love one another. Buffy loves her friends and Watcher but in affairs of the heart we are all vulnerable. 22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: W, X, G and everyone else have their God-given right for whatever insecurities or suspiciousness they feel. They have lots of reasons to believe "the other two are closer than he/she is to either one" or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that before jumping to a hasty conclusion like "My friends definitely trash talk me behind my back for being into the new thing/think I'm some sort of useless lunk who has to join the army to achieve anything/treat me like a lousy drunk or retired librarian who cannot be taken seriously" and so on a person with a smidgen of common sense should look around and see who's talking. The fact all that stuff comes out of Spike's stinky mouth alone is enough reason for the alarm bells to start ringing inside X/W/G heads immediately. I can understand their anxiety if they had someone else as the source of information, not the undead creature with murderous intentions. How about giving your friends - the ones who helped you fight the good fight for four years - the benefit of the doubt?? If it's that easy for something like Captain Peroxide to just come and say some nasty things and trigger the rift between old friends as a result, then something is seriously wrong with the Scooby Gang. I don't think none of the Scoobs had a reason to feel excluded or whatever. I just hate the idea it had to be their sworn enemy's bullshit to turn them against Buffy and each other. Instead of thinking something like "how dare my so-called friends to..." Giles, Willow and Xander should ask themselves: "Why does that bleached fucker still walk the earth?" first and foremost. You may feel bad about the way you think your friends are treating you. Doesn't mean you have to believe the enemy like you're some blind sheep. Well, Willow seems to have most sympathy with Spike despite their past and Giles wonder if there is some higher purpose to it? 22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Exactly. Even if B/X are not so positive about "the new thing" I doubt they are that careless or stupid to discuss the issue while Spike's hanging around. Don't bet on it, he's eavesdropped on them before? Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 11, 2018 Author Share December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said: Willow seems to have most sympathy with Spike Bad for her. An apparent case of Stockholm syndrome, I guess. Her relationship with Oz probably wasn't too healthy if she seems to have sympathy with the creature that nearly killed her best friend and threatened to do some nasty things to her in the past. Link to comment
Halting Hex December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: AFAIK Xander dared to have a lunch with Oz simply because he wanted to know what made Oz look so "cool" and "more useful" in the eyes of the gang and all other people. It wasn't about any friendly feelings towards Oz I'd disagree; Xander had previously sought out Oz's companionship in Gingerbread as well, leading to awkwardness over burritos and later complaints about Oz "speak[ing] volumes with his eyes". Xander "needs more guy friends", he's always maintained that. I mean, this time the year before, he was counting Angel as a friend ("except I don't like him"), so if that doesn't show how desperate he is, what would? Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 11, 2018 Author Share December 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: Xander had previously sought out Oz's companionship in Gingerbread as well, leading to awkwardness over burritos and later complaints about Oz "speak[ing] volumes with his eyes" Well, Xander was eaten up with guilt (just like Willow) and wanted to be forgiven by His Royal Wolfness Oz Almighty. Which seems quite frustrating from where I stand. OTOH if Oz's companionship was the only way to remain in Willow's life from then on, then you're probably right. Link to comment
Halting Hex December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 Xander and Willow both felt guilty about "the Fluke" and both wanted to make things right with both Oz and Cordelia. Willow says that "Cordelia belongs in the justified camp" in The Wish; it's just that Cordy withdrew from the group in immature ways that Oz avoided, for a while. I don't see it as making Xander weak, or Oz a paragon, that they showed him wanting to reconnect while it took until Döppelgängland for Cordy to vent out her Willow-related pain. (And even then, to the wrong "Willow" at that. But it does allow CC to start hanging in the Library again beginning in the next episode, so that's good.) 41 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said: if Oz's companionship was the only way to remain in Willow's life from then on Obviously not; Willow and Xander socialize in both The Wish and Amends before the W/O reconciliation or Xander's subsequent outreach to Oz. There's no indication that any of that is conditional on Oz's approval. Willow's self-imposed "no touching" rule can just as easily be seen as an acknowledgement that Willow still has feelings for Xander (see The Zeppo/Consequences), not that she's casting out Xander to get back with Oz. And in any event [desperate attempt to return to S4 topic], Oz has been gone for most of this year, so we can hardly blame him for W/X feeling excluded from each other's lives. Except as loss of "connective tissue", since Anya only exists to hover around Xander and doesn't pull him towards the group the way Oz would. Damn, now I'm imagining Cordelia at UC-Sunnydale, saying withering things about Veruca's makeup. Oh, well… 1 Link to comment
Pallas December 11, 2018 Share December 11, 2018 And with that...This conversation served as an excellent argument that "The Yoko Factor" has gnarled roots in fissures running two seasons deep. Time to move on, or continue in the relationships topic. 2 Link to comment
Halting Hex January 5, 2019 Share January 5, 2019 (edited) Discussion of Giles's adventures as "A God of Acoustic Rock" in the WTWTA thread sent me to check out the script for this one, to see exactly how far into "Free Bird" Rupert is supposed to get (indeed, no soloing planned) and, well, lookie what I found: Quote [GILES] recoils as if from a snake. Reverse angle reveals SPIKE standing there, looking on curiously. SPIKE: I think it was my childlike conviction that you couldn't get more pathetic that makes this so depressing. GILES (grimacing) Please, come in. Damn, I wish this had made it to air. Not only is it Snarky Spike at his best, but it puts a dot on Giles's insecurities, as well. "Childlike conviction", heh. Edited January 8, 2019 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 6, 2019 Author Share January 6, 2019 (edited) Spoiler Giles, when you followed Buffy's lead with the Ritual of Restoration, you were bad. When you tried to deal with Faith as her Watcher, you were really bad. But when you sit here tryin' to play that old Skynyrd's song on the guitar... you *suck*. OK, I'm just joking here. I shouldn't be that harsh on ol' G-Man. Edited January 6, 2019 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Joe Hellandback January 19, 2019 Share January 19, 2019 On 06/01/2019 at 10:25 AM, lembergwatcher said: Hide contents Giles, when you followed Buffy's lead with the Ritual of Restoration, you were bad. When you tried to deal with Faith as her Watcher, you were really bad. But when you sit here tryin' to play that old Skynyrd's song on the guitar... you *suck*. OK, I'm just joking here. I shouldn't be that harsh on ol' G-Man. He was good, better than Limp Bisket's version. Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 27, 2019 Author Share January 27, 2019 So Riley goes into hiding after the whole Oz deal in the previous episode. The question is: why don't the Scoobs (at least, B, W & X) follow his example? Infiltrating top secret government facility is a serious criminal offence, isn't it? Shouldn't Initiative, FBI, police, INSCOM, ATF, National Guard or whatever be searching for Buffy and her fluffy battle kittens? If Spike was able to find B/W dorm room number in The Initiative, couldn't the Initiative operatives do the same thing? The Scoobs don't seem to hide at all. Even if Colonel McNamara doesn't give a shit, shouldn't Buffy & her friends take some precautions? Xander has to think about keeping a low profile, not about the shit he heard from Spike. Just like Willow should bother with escaping arrest and detention instead of being nervous about B/X alleged talking behind her back. And how can Xander of all people chat about Willow "being trendy", if the deadest man in Deadonia still has no knowledge about the changes in Willow's life, anyway?.. Link to comment
Halting Hex January 28, 2019 Share January 28, 2019 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: And how can Xander of all people chat about Willow "being trendy", if the deadest man in Deadonia still has no knowledge about the changes in Willow's life, anyway?.. But of course, Willow doesn't know that Xander doesn't know. She knows she told Buffy and it's not impossible that Buffy discussed it with Xander. (And that he might have reacted poorly, which is the worry that Willow had in the first place. That's why she found it so difficult to tell Buffy, until Oz's return forced her hand.) 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: So Riley goes into hiding after the whole Oz deal in the previous episode. The question is: why don't the Scoobs (at least, B, W & X) follow his example? Infiltrating top secret government facility is a serious criminal offence, isn't it? Not as serious as desertion while on duty, which is why Riley is especially concerned. Trespassing might get you a year in prison. Deserting gets you shot. That said, the Scoobs did take precautions against being pursued by the Initiative in Goodbye, Iowa. Not clear why they've abandoned them. The idea that it was mostly Maggie Walsh and Dr. Angleman who were hostile to Buffy (and, well, Adam's solved those problems) is tempting…but it's still on record that Buffy was enlisted in the unit and left under suspicious circumstances; a modicum of concern would not seem unmerited, I agree. Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 28, 2019 Author Share January 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Halting Hex said: She knows she told Buffy and it's not impossible that Buffy discussed it with Xander. Well, I know we're talking about Buffy, but... Does Willow really think her best friend is that braindead to discuss such sensitive topic with Willow's other best friend behind Wicca's back? It's not totally impossible, but I always thought Willow held Buffy to a higher standard. 6 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Not as serious as desertion while on duty, which is why Riley is especially concerned. Trespassing might get you a year in prison. Deserting gets you shot. Right. Only that wasn't the first Buffy's trespassing. And shouldn't we be talking about trespassing and assisting the deserter? Shouldn't Initiatiave bear a grudge against the gang and be in "enough is enough" mood - not just because of someone's personal hostility to Buffy? 6 hours ago, Halting Hex said: the Scoobs did take precautions against being pursued by the Initiative in Goodbye, Iowa. Yes, they did, but oddly enough before, not after breaking the law. We see Buffy and Willow walking across UC Sunnydale campus (!), the place where they're the easiest to spot and go after, the very next day after Buffy's little trip to the Maggieland. I have problems understanding Initiative's rules and regulations, because I can't see any reason why Forrest told his commandos to "escort" Buffy and Xander out, not to incarcerate or shoot them. Infiltrating the top secret government facility for the second time in several months should have triggered a reaction from the authorities. If the commandos are busy looking for Riley or dealing with the supernatural, there are law enforcement agencies out there who can do the job, given that none of the Scoobs are hiding and all of them are still in Sunnydale. True, it may be quite hard to handcuff Buffy, but capturing Giles, Xander and (even) Willow doesn't have to be a serious problem. Even though Giles, Xander and Willow do have a constitutional right to be worried about whatever sensitive topics they have, avoiding arrest must be their top concern at the moment. Link to comment
Halting Hex January 28, 2019 Share January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: Does Willow really think her best friend is that braindead to discuss such sensitive topic with Willow's other best friend behind Wicca's back? It's not totally impossible, but I always thought Willow held Buffy to a higher standard. Not wishing to try to speak on behalf of any (much less all) LGBTQ people, but "coming out" tends to be a big thing. (And presumably moreso back in 2000.) If Willow isn't capable of her best sober analysis right now, I'm inclined to cut her slack. 1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said: We see Buffy and Willow walking across UC Sunnydale campus (!), the place where they're the easiest to spot and go after, the very next day after Buffy's little trip to the Maggieland. First of all, the Initiative isn't likely to do any daylight abductions, I wouldn't think. There's still a need for a certain amount of subtlety, most likely. Also, this is at least the fifth day after Buffy left Riley with "nothing left to hold on to" except "the scarf part of me". At the episode's start, we learn that Buffy has been out patrolling for at least 72 hours, consecutively, trying to find Adam. No wonder Willow's been going so stir-crazy she suggests that Xander try to "fix" the blaster by just randomly pushing buttons, which is not exactly Will's high point in terms of strategy, as Xander notes. Then, after spending the fourth day in the basement and then finding Adam's eviscerated handiwork (and a nearby visible stagehand) while patrolling that night, the Three Musketeers return to the basement, to be surprised by Riley, and then the phone call about Faith's awakening. So B/W's campus walk and talk (ending with the tasty surprise waiting by the message board) is on at least day 5, post-"Can I have sex with Riley, too?" break-in. Not that it matters so much, I grant you (and for all we know, Willow might have been going to class in the interim), but I live for dotting this sort of chronological "i", so… Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 28, 2019 Author Share January 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Halting Hex said: So B/W's campus walk and talk (ending with the tasty surprise waiting by the message board) is on at least day 5 I guess we're talking about two different B/W campus walks. You are probably talking about the scene between B, W and Faith in This Year's Girl, while I mean the penultimate scene in Goodbye, Iowa (the one that takes place between bloodied Spike's ejection from Willy's Place and the final scene with Riley in the Initiative's medical room). Because my transcript clearly says that was the "next day" - http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/070_tran.html Quote Cut to UC Sunnydale. Next day. Willow and Buffy are outside, walking across campus. Link to comment
Halting Hex January 29, 2019 Share January 29, 2019 My bad. I remembered the end dialogue about Riley, but not that it took place during a walk-and-talk. For all I remembered, that conversation was indoors. (And I wasn't sure it was with Willow; it could as easily have been with Giles at his pad. Next time, I'll double-check the source, I suppose.) Link to comment
lembergwatcher February 1, 2019 Author Share February 1, 2019 The sodding chip - a piece of technology that works the way TPTB (or the writers) want it to. S.04E.07 The Initiative. After having his Behavior-Modification Circuitry implanted Spike manages to grab the Initiative lab guy by the throat, and then fight off the Initiative personnel and its commandos in a rather violent way. He attacks Willow at the dorm, grabs her and and throws her against her dresser, then throws her on the bed and jumps on her. Only after he attempts to bite Willow his chip causes a painful shock. S.04E.16 Who Are You. Spike shoves a patron at The Bronze and his chip backfires immediately. Which means there doesn't have to be any biting attempts on the Hostile Subterrestrial's part to activate it. Any violence towards the human being can make the vamp's head hurt like hell. S.04E.20 The Yoko Factor. Aiming the toy gun at Xander is all it takes for the pain to hit Spikey. No biting attempts, no physical violence of any kind and yet... So how does this thing work exactly? But that's the Buffyverse, after all. Link to comment
illdoc February 2, 2019 Share February 2, 2019 5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: S.04E.20 The Yoko Factor. Aiming the toy gun at Xander is all it takes for the pain to hit Spikey. Somewhere in Season 5 (not good with titles, but I know Buffy is upset about "still alive" Joyce (maybe...Crush?), doesn't Spike actually point a loaded rifle at Buffy (with NO pain)???? Link to comment
lembergwatcher February 2, 2019 Author Share February 2, 2019 Spoiler It's Fool for Love. And Spike doesn't actually point a rifle at Buffy as far as I remember. He goes to her with a rifle, sees the Slayer distressed and plays "the shoulder to cry on". But I don't recall him aiming firearm at Buffy. In Crush it was taser. Drusilla used it against Buffy and Spike then fired the taser at Dru. Link to comment
Halting Hex February 2, 2019 Share February 2, 2019 (edited) Spoiler From the Fool for Love transcript: Quote He raises the gun and cocks it. Harmony does say that the Sodding Chip™ will make it impossible for him to shoot Buffy, but Spike claims he can endure the pain long enough to get off the (hypothetically) fatal shot. We never find out who was right…but never see any sign of pain, either. Edited February 2, 2019 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex September 29, 2021 Share September 29, 2021 Quote BUFFY: I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One . . and her friends. Maybe not, Buff…but there was that one about the Master killing you, which came true. And if you didn't have Xander, you'd still be face down in the dirty water, your eternal non-existence only occasionally interrupted when Ol' Nest felt like taking another slurp from your corpse. So perhaps "if it isn't prophesied, I'm not interested" isn't really the concept you want to back. (See also Xander figuring out how to defeat the unkillable planet-destroying demon in Innocence, Willow stopping you from slurping down a lethal dose of virus in Killed by Death, Cordelia running off Lyle Gorch while you and Giles were both unconscious in Homecoming and W/X/C running off Angel when you were too sick to stand [KbD, again].) Spoiler And yes, Buffy is proven wrong about this the very next episode, but still. Xander and Willow shouldn't put up with this shit for even a moment. I blame Spike…well, just because I like to, but he did put them off of their game. Link to comment
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