AwesomO4000 August 15, 2014 Share August 15, 2014 (edited) @Amerilla - I'll throw my opinion into the pot here, though it likely won't be helpful and is mostly to show how we as fans all differ For me, season 9 wasn't the worst season, though I am debating on whether or not to purchase it. I own season 1-7 and enjoy them all in one way or another, some more than others (and usually not all the same ones many fans do). I don't have season 8, and likely someone will have to give it to me, or I'll have to have some sort of turnaround after next season before I buy it, because I disliked the first part of the season that much - and by the time they got to the torture porn in "Torn and Frayed" I was almost done entirely with it and was ready to throw in the towel. There was one episode I somewhat enjoyed - "Hunter Heroici" - and that's about it. Opposite to Aeryn13, I actually preferred the second half of the season much more than the first with "Everybody Hates Hitler" being my favorite of the season. So my opinion: if you survived season 8, and still want more, I think you can survive and get something out of season 9, too. I'm not sure how helpful that was. Edited to add: @catrox14 - I have been working on a post for the past couple of days about just this very thing, that Jared does not do angst particularly well. Maybe I'll post it later. He can do sadness, anger, fear, loathing, bitchface etc, but the angst...not so much. I find that when he does it seem to come about more as judgmental and bitchy not angsty I'll be interested to see that and see the examples, because one of my favorite episodes of the entire series ("Mystery Spot") has a lot of what I consider Sam angst (it's got the other stuff, too, but also angst), and I thought that Jared did a great job in that episode... or maybe I'm not getting the idea of what kind of angst you mean entirely well... I don't think Jared perhaps does angst as well in season 4 for example, but for me I blamed that more on the writing. Sam's motivations in that season, for me weren't made very clear (I still am not sure what the writers were going for actually), and the way the season was structured - with all of the "mystery" and then the flashbacks later that didn't help for me - it just didn't support what was happening onscreen for me - i.e. it looked to me like we skipped a lot of crucial stuff that happened in the 4 month time jump, and then never really came back to it. And I think that for me is where Jared suffers the most - he's given stuff that sometimes (to me anyway) seems out of character based on Sam previously, or something that seems overly complex or contradictory*, and then the writers expect him to "fill in the blanks" on how Sam got there, and he just can't (and I don't blame him). Dean's motivations are usually fairly straightforward for me and generally make more sense, and therefor it might be easier for Jensen to keep Dean in character and express that. I'm not saying Jensen isn't good at what he does, because he is, but I also sometimes think he's starting from a more solid ground than Jared is, especially in the angst department. (The argument/fight scene in "Sex and Violence" is a good example for me. What Dean says in that argument and why he says it makes perfect sense. What Sam says, for me, doesn't, and all I'm left with is why is Sam saying that? And it's never really explained well later on either.) * For example: Listening to the commentary of "Lucifer Rising" I thought it was impressive that Jared was able to convey any of that at all. What I got from that commentary was that somehow Sam in that episode was supposed to be simultaneously effected by hubris/pride/ and or self-righteousness, determination, resignation, and affected by feelings of failure and also being suicidal. Yeah, good luck with that. Still I thought Sam/Jared's reaction to the phone "message" from Dean somehow was able to convey a large portion of those things, and I was impressed. Edited August 15, 2014 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment
Mcolleague August 15, 2014 Share August 15, 2014 Jumping in to say that I also enjoyed Season 9, and it's the first season I will be buying on DVD since Season 4. Different seasons appeal to each of us depending on our personal taste? It seems to be an UO here but I was totally fine with the dysfunction and angst of Season 4 and 5, but really disliked Season 6/7 despite the levity of the characters because of the directionlessness of the mytharcs. As heartbreaking as it was to see, I love how Season 9 ended and how it potentially sets up Season 10 (which again, seems to be an UO on this site, but not an UO in fandom in general imo?). I think it's a matter of expectation and taste, and depends quite a lot on the characters you like? I personally really hated Season 8 - all of it - the first half for ruining Sam, and the second half for nursemaid!Dean, but a lot of people loved it (especially Destiel fans lol). Despite the retcon and lol!canon-ness of a lot of the mytharc stuff, I found the MoC concept very interesting, and Dean having a storyline for once definitely helped things - but the brotherly relationship kinda really goes to shit in Season 9. And the angels storyline is dry as sawdust. So... yeah. Depends what you are watching for. I think a lot of us signed up for the little roadshow about two brothers in Season 1, and it's a completely different show now... But the show was also conceptualized to be about Sam, and IMO with Dean set up to be a Xander type supporting character - so I can't in all fairness say that change is all bad. Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 15, 2014 Share August 15, 2014 S9 may be the only season I don't buy. I only bought S8 begrudgingly because I like things to be complete and I like to support shows that I watch online for free if I can. So far I've only re-watched two episodes and watched some of the special features. I have no interest in re-watching any of the S9 episodes at this time and wonder if I me buying the DVDs will somehow send a message that I was okay with the show when I'm not--still like to have things complete though--so on the fence right now. Sometimes I just need some time though, I'm currently re-watching S3 and finding it more likeable than I first did, so maybe someday S8-S9 will become better for me. When I'm judging, I tend to lean more towards production quality and never play favorites with the characters--I'm totally bi-bro. I'm rarely interested in which character gets the myth arc or anything like that. I only care about the overall story. So, many fans love S9 because Dean finally got a supernatural storyline, but I think the overall quality of those episodes in particular are not so great and/or the storytelling isn't particularly good, so I'm not a fan of them myself. A lot of Sam fans liked the second half of S8 because he was finally getting a little bit of POV, but again, for me, those episodes aren't particularly high on my list because the quality and storytelling aspects of them fall short. So @Amarillo, all that was a very long way in explaining why I personally don't care for S8 or S9. But there is no real consensus, IMO, as to what seasons or episodes are liked. This is a very fractured fandom. The only time there was any sort of consensus was at the start of S8--almost everyone hated Sam not looking for Dean and almost everyone seemed to hate Amelia. So, you should watch it for yourself and decide. Personally, I wouldn't skip any of them--even the ones I would never ever watch again--because without them you may lose some of the story. And how would you know how bad they are if you don't jump in to the nightmare yourself, right? 2 Link to comment
Demented Daisy August 15, 2014 Share August 15, 2014 As usual, @DittyDotDot much better says what I'm thinking/feeling. I have seasons 1-7 on dvd, but have yet to buy 8 and have serious doubts about purchasing 9. I think Dog Dean Afternoon was the only episode I genuinely enjoyed. I think we all knew that Gadreel possessing Sam was going to end badly; likewise, nothing good was going to come of Dean taking on the Mark of Cain. Frankly, the entire season felt stale and predictable to me. Link to comment
Amerilla August 15, 2014 Share August 15, 2014 I'm not sure how helpful that was. It's all helpful. And thank you, everyone, for your input. This is a very fractured fandom. LOL. My only other fandom is "Once Upon a Time," and we're so fractured, it's like were all watching different shows. (I tease. I love my fellow Oncers. But the show itself has gotten so dysfunctional, it makes Supernatural S8 look like frigging Hamlet by comparison.) And how would you know how bad they are if you don't jump in to the nightmare yourself, right? That actually applies to quite a lot of things in life. :-) Link to comment
shang yiet August 16, 2014 Share August 16, 2014 I don't care how good Jensen's acting is, it's a case of the writiers going to the same well too many times. Dean's emo porn may be delicious the first couple of seasons but it loses the effect the 987th time I'm called upon to witness Dean;'s navel gazing and one perfect tear. I'm just numb to Dean's feelings at this point, Link to comment
7kstar August 16, 2014 Share August 16, 2014 The one spot I'll agree with you is in Kevin's death. I'm so sick of killing off characters we like, and if they are going to kill a villain don't waste them in the first place. My reaction to Kevin's death, was really you did it again...man I'm sick of it. However when Jensen was trying to tell Kevin how sorry he was, I was pulled in and I even kind of enjoyed Kevin's response. So I do hope they stop these unnecessary deaths. They become pointless. I get when these writers were growing up - you never killed of important characters but going to the extreme doesn't make good drama or keep viewers. It's one of the main reasons I stopped watching Lost very early in the run of a series. Usually I stop watching more than I stay. But Jensen pulls me back in with his acting skills. If he left the show, I would be gone in a heartbeat. Misha I enjoy but his character is kinda of flat lately so it just isn't a reason to keep watching. I'm hoping they've heard the fans because I've read so many that are tired of the angst. I understand the new viewers and teenagers not feeling the same, but they need to bring the adventure and fun back into the show. I'm hoping the Demon Dean storyline will do that. Link to comment
SueB August 17, 2014 Share August 17, 2014 I liked Season 9. A lot. I'd binge 1-11 via iTunes, do t,he Hulu thing for the rest. Link to comment
Amerilla August 20, 2014 Share August 20, 2014 We lasted three whole days. We tried to get into a couple shows we really like - but about 10 minutes after I showed hubby Misha's ice bucket challenge on YouTube tonight, he said "well, let's just buy it." After about 6 months of binge watching, the Winchesters are a tough habit to break. 2 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 20, 2014 Share August 20, 2014 Yay! Another Supernatural lunatic has been converted...because there aren't already enough of us out there, right? Hee! 1 Link to comment
Amerilla August 20, 2014 Share August 20, 2014 Yay! Another Supernatural lunatic has been converted...because there aren't already enough of us out there, right? Hee! LOL - Yup, I think I'm pretty completely attached to the SPN Collective at this point - and not a moment too soon, because I'm going to need it when S10 starts. About 95% of what I watch now is streaming, and I get very cranky when I have to watch shows in real time. At least here, I can vent - er, "discuss" - that which is making me cranky. :-) Since I already know how S9 ends, I guess what I'm pondering at the moment is how DemonDean relates to Sam. My first guess was that DD would just flip Sammy off for all his many failures over the years and head out to let his demonic-freak flag fly, and I still think that's a strong possibility. But they're hinting that Dean is going to become a creature driven strongly by his wants and desires, and it occurs to me that what he's always wanted most - and I don't mean this in a slashy Wincest way - is for Sam to be with him. To be a family, to stay together, always. It's been a source of pain for him during those times when Sam has tried to break away. So, now that he has the upper hand....does he use his powers to drive Sam away, or to try to force him to stay at his side? Link to comment
catrox14 August 20, 2014 Share August 20, 2014 There is a clip out from Comic Con that kind of addresses your question @Amerilla. If you want spoilers that is Link to comment
catrox14 August 21, 2014 Share August 21, 2014 o mething like this before in season 4. I would think that 40 years in hell would be plenty enough to garner sympathy for Dean, but no, that wasn't enough. That had to have Sam callously lie to Dean, berate him for being weak, and physically beat hm down in order to garner more sympathy for Dean. They also threw Alastair in there, too, just in case we didn't get it. Season 4 was all about "let's heap as much stuff on Dean as possible" and it didn't seem to matter to the writers that Sam's character was being sacrificed in the process. From the episode thread They did heap all kinds of crap on Dean but then did little to nothing with it. The didn't spend any time really addressing what that terrible experience did to Dean. He drank, he cried on screen twice which lasted all of 10 minutes and one of those was him saying he "liked" torturing people. The episode with Alastair was Dean exacting vengeance and compromising his values to not be that man again because it was supposedly for the greater good. It was awful to find out Dean broke the first seal but again, they did nothing to explore how that news affected Dean other than the conversation with Cas. They kept returning to Sam's demon blood arc so I can't really agree that it was all about Dean's "manpain". (Just as an aside I really hate that term. I think it belittles male characters rightful angst.). Both Sam and Dean were concurrently doing terrible things for the supposed greater good. Dean got some vengeance on Alastair and Sam got to kill him. What sympathy there was for Dean in s4 was erased when Bobby ripped Dean apart for deigning to walk away from Sam after Sam beat the shit out of Dean in Lucifer Rising. And IMO s5 was nothing but Dean's deconstruction in favor of Sam's ascension to hero( as though both weren't already heroes). Dean saying he let Sam rot in the panic room" was a retcon IMO garner sympathy for Sam because they needed to redeem Sam from s4. And then in Two Minutes to Midnight they had Bobby say he and Dean were always too hard on Sam? Say what? Bobby was NEVER hard on Sam that was just throwing Dean under the bus in a veiled manner. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 21, 2014 Share August 21, 2014 @catrox 14 - They kept returning to Sam's demon blood arc so I can't really agree that it was all about Dean's "manpain". (Just as an aside I really hate that term. I think it belittles male characters rightful angst.). I agree, and apologize for using the term... but in a way I did think they belittled Dean's pain, so maybe it was in some ways appropriate. The main goal for them was to show the pain and Dean persevering under that pain, not to address it any meaningful way. To me in season 4, Dean's pain was the point and the goal - that was it. Show Dean in pain and crying a pretty tear or two, but somehow coming through it all. I don't think there was ever an intent to make it go deeper. It's why even though there are some individual episodes of season 4 that I love, overall I didn't like it very much. And to be clear: I agree that Sam's blood addiction arc was a big part of the story. My point was that Sam's other behavior: the lying later just for the sake of lying - since Dean told Sam he knew what Sam was doing at least in terms of going to see Ruby - and berating Dean had little to nothing to do with that. It wasn't necessary for showing Sam getting affected by blood addiction in my opinion (I mean wasn't drinking demon blood and sleeping with a demon bad enough?). For me that was thrown in there solely to heap pain on Dean and in the process made Sam not only look bad for his addiction/fall, but made him look like a horrible brother as well. For me it was tearing down Sam's character for the main purpose of making Dean sad and/or hurt. It wasn't necessary, in my opinion, and was ugliness just for the sake of heaping on. What sympathy there was for Dean in s4 was erased when Bobby ripped Dean apart for deigning to walk away from Sam after Sam beat the shit out of Dean in Lucifer Rising. For me, that just made Dean look even more sympathetic. Not even Bobby is on his side (now we're trashing Bobby for Dean sympathy), but Dean puts his feelings aside and fought against all the odds (because even Castiel* was working against Dean at this point, just to make the "everyone against Dean" complete) to do what's right to try to save the world. For me, the only way Dean wouldn't have looked sympathetic here is if he hadn't put those feelings aside to do what needed to be done, but since he did, the sympathies are with Dean here. I can't see the writers' point of that being "See, Sam was right to beat the crap out of Dean," but "See, despite everyone not being on Dean's side, Dean heroically put aside his hurt to do what needed to be done." The sympathy here is with Dean, in my opinion. * He got thrown under the bus a little too. They could've had any old angel let Sam go, or even Zachariah, but it was Castiel. And IMO s5 was nothing but Dean's deconstruction in favor of Sam's ascension to hero( as though both weren't already heroes) I didn't really see Dean's deconstruction there, but I actually don't think the show had shown Sam as much of a hero at that point. They actually took all that away from him fully in my opinion by the end of season 4. What heroic thing had Sam actually done since season 1 that wasn't nullified? He didn't kill Azazel and instead of that being the right thing to do, it was a failure since it almost caused Dean's death and caused John to make the deal and go to hell for what 200 years? He didn't beat Azazel again, and his defiance and doing the right thing - again - resulted in him dying, and this time Dean made a deal... so now Sam's "heroic" actions have resulted in two people selling their souls. He didn't save Dean from going to hell and instead went down a dark path that resulted in letting Lucifer free. In my opinion, Sam's "hero" status was taken away from him in season 1. Sam did heroic things, but since they generally resulted in failure or something worse, Sam was more of a tragic hero wannabe than a hero at that point - the epitome of Garth's scathing "He's insecure, but for good reason. Bless his heart." In my opinion, Sam needed what happened in season 5. The whole point - as Sam said - was that he let Lucifer out; he had to put him back in. To me that was pretty straightforward and necessary after tearing down the character so far by the end of season 4. So I disagree that by the time of season 5 Sam was a hero of the story at that point. He'd pretty much been systematically downgraded since season 1. Dean saying he let Sam rot in the panic room" was a retcon IMO garner sympathy for Sam because they needed to redeem Sam from s4. I didn't see that as a retcon. Dean was willing to let Sam die in the panic room rather than become a monster. He flat out told Bobby just that. Under the circumstances they were in at that point, Sam was going to let Dean out and be part of the action. Dean told Bobby no way was he letting Sam out. How would Dean, with all of his insecurities, not see that as "I would've let you rot?" For Dean: I would've let you die = I would've let you rot. With all of Dean's guilt, I really can't see Dean as seeing it any other way. (I have to remind myself that Dean is not always a reliable narrator here, so I take what he says sometimes with a grain of salt). There was obviously a difference between Sam's blood-addiction and Dean's decision-making - although both were somewhat reckless and suicidal - but there were similarities in a lot of the other factors. And letting both out could lead to potentially bad consequences. It's just that letting Dean out lead to the right decision, whereas of course Sam made the wrong one. So again no deconstruction of Dean here for me. Dean made the decision he thought was right - and it was. 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Demented Daisy August 21, 2014 Share August 21, 2014 For the record, I don't think either brother's characterization has been sacrificed for the other. I've said this several times, but it bears repeating, IMO: The writers are not infallible. They make mistakes. They may have their favorites, but there are enough writers that every character is going to be someone's favorite. I don't think that Sera Gamble sacrificed Dean because she loved Sam so much. I don't think that Carver is on a mission to destroy Dean. I don't think that Sam was sacrificed to prop up Dean's pain after Purgatory. I don't think Cas was sacrificed to show Sam's Worst Hell Pain Ever. They've all had highs and lows, good and bad -- and the audience still loves them. (With obvious, radical exceptions.) I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that TPTB still love them, too. I think that people do the best they can, but no one is going to be happy with what they come up with 100% of the time. It's impossible. So Sam not looking for Dean (and, more importantly IMO, Kevin) was a massive fail by TPTB. I'm hoping that the upcoming season will not give us another massive fail in Dean's case. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 August 21, 2014 Share August 21, 2014 (edited) I didn't see that as a retcon. Dean was willing to let Sam die in the panic room rather than become a monster. He flat out told Bobby just that. Under the circumstances they were in at that point, Sam was going to let Dean out and be part of the action. Dean told Bobby no way was he letting Sam out. How would Dean, with all of his insecurities, not see that as "I would've let you rot?" For Dean: I would've let you die = I would've let you rot. With all of Dean's guilt, I really can't see Dean as seeing it any other way. (I have to remind myself that Dean is not always a reliable narrator here, so I take what he says sometimes with a grain of salt). To me it was a retcon because Dean had valid reasons for wanting to keep Sam there and not let him turn into a monster, which is not the same as letting him rot without reason, which is what IMO that dialogue suggested. Like why didn't they mention that the ONLY reason Sam was there in the first place was the demon blood addiction and that Sam was dangerous. Dean knew exactly why he made that choice, and even with all of Dean's guilt trips that was one that IMO he never felt guilty about until Bobby tried to guilt trip him and it was needed in s5 to show that Sam had more faith in Dean than Dean did in Sam. I felt they had already mined that so why make Dean sound like an uncaring jerk when what he did was out of love for not wanting Sam to fall to the dark side. That's much like I feel about Sam and his not looking for Dean. It makes Sam look like a way more uncaring jerk than he has been. I thought the scene in Two Minutes to Midnight was unnecessary in total. I mean was it ever really in doubt that Dean would not go against Sam...not really. And the entire bit with Bobby saying "I watched that kid go and save person after person" and seemed so shocked at his heroism. I was like "Um, Bobby...Sam has always done heroic things even if he was really screwed up along the way and you are just now noticing?". Have you been hanging out with different Winchesters that haven't saved people!? I really never took that scene to be anything but veiled Dean bashing for not supporting everything Sam ever did. I sure didn't think was to make us feel sorry for Dean at all. I thought it was to remind us that he hasn't always supported Sam and he should feel bad about that. Bleh. Edited August 22, 2014 by catrox14 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 @catrox14 - To me it was a retcon because Dean had valid reasons for wanting to keep Sam there and not let him turn into a monster, which is not the same as letting him rot without reason, which is what IMO that dialogue suggested. Like why didn't they mention that the ONLY reason Sam was there in the first place was the demon blood addiction and that Sam was dangerous. I guess I can see that, but for me, we already knew why Dean did what he did. Sam knew why Dean did what he did. We and Sam knew it turned out badly when Sam did get out, so we knew that Dean was right to keep him in, so I was kind of okay with not being hit upside the head with it again. I also didn't think the dialogue suggested that Dean left Sam in the panic room without reason. It was very specific. Sam said earlier in the conversation "You're pretty much the only game in town," meaning he considered Dean a big gun in the fight and so because of that he was going to give Dean the benefit of the doubt. That is also what Sam was when he was in the panic room - their big gun. Dean says specifically "You know if the tables were turned... I'd let you rot in here. Hell, I have let you rot in here." For me that was very specific in meaning: under the same circumstances Dean wouldn't trust Sam... and we knew he had good reason to, both then and now, since Dean told Sam earlier in the episode that he didn't trust him. I didn't see that as implying Dean had just left Sam in there for no reason. I also saw it as typically Dean - he was using self-depreciation to argue his point sort of ... that side being: I didn't trust you then, so why are you trusting me now. I'm gonna say yes, fair warning. And so now he had no reason to feel guilty if he did say yes... he'd done everything he could to dissuade Sam. He could go forward with no guilt. I felt they had already mined that so why make Dean sound like an uncaring jerk when what he did was out of love for not wanting Sam to fall to the dark side. I looked at it as making up for Sam calling Dean weak and saying he couldn't do it in season 4. Here Sam was calling Dean the "only game in town" and implying that they needed him in the fight. It was more than just trusting Dean. It was Sam telling Dean he needed Dean's strength. And I think that was needed in light of season 4. If you are speaking of specifically just the "rot" line, for me that was more a typical Dean argument tactic more than anything else. I was like "Um, Bobby...Sam has always done heroic things even if he was really screwed up along the way and you are just now noticing?". Have you been hanging out with different Winchesters that haven't saved people!? I would think so too, except then we had Bobby not realizing that Sam was soulless for an entire year and then saying to Dean well maybe that weird - and jerky - acting person he was with was maybe just how Sam was now. So after that, I kind of wondered if Bobby really did know Sam all that well. I really never took that scene to be anything but veiled Dean bashing for not supporting everything Sam ever did. I sure didn't think was to make us feel sorry for Dean at all. I thought it was to remind us that he hasn't always supported Sam and he should feel bad about that. Bleh. I didn't think this was necessarily sympathetic to Dean either - it's why I left it out in my discussion - but I thought the point was more to show how Bobby had changed his mind about Sam. part of the guilt trip that you mention above from season 4 - about Dean's decision to put Sam in the panic room - was to convince Dean to let Sam be let out to be used as a weapon. For me, there was no "we should let Sam out, because we should trust him and you're wrong not to trust him." It was more "we should let Sam out because he might die and then there will go our best chance to stop the apocalypse." For me that was what the whole "maybe we should let him go be on the battlefield" was about, and that's a completely different message. Dean's trust of Sam wasn't being questioned there... it was Dean's willingness to give up their biggest weapon in order to save Sam that was being questioned by Bobby. Bobby didn't trust Sam either, in my opinion. And if it was bashing Dean for not supporting Sam, that would seem to contradict what went before, because the only times Dean didn't support Sam, Sam screwed up royally and was always wrong. So if the message was that Dean should support Sam more, the writers shouldn't then make Dean right to not trust/support Sam or for me it doesn't make sense. @Demented Daisy - They've all had highs and lows, good and bad -- and the audience still loves them. (With obvious, radical exceptions.) I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that TPTB still love them, too. I hope so. And I understand what you are saying about making mistakes and that some of my rant over in the "We Need to Talk About Kevin" episode thread is paranoid ranting - hence the rant warning - but I think it's that it just seemed such a huge mistake for me, that how could they have made it in the first place? And on multiple levels. And I think it's because I wish what you said was true, but actually it was just barely. Season 8 took for me one of my most favorite characters on television ever and pretty much made me hate him - and I don't say that lightly. I had stuck by Sam all through season 4 and yes, even then I still loved him, but season 8 ruined him for me, and I'm still trying to recover. That that could happen by mistake... that just almost makes it worse. Oops, we completely ruined a character you loved... we didn't mean to. Like when my sister accidentally broke a special necklace my Gramma gave me and threw it away in a panic so she wouldn't get caught. It was an accident, so I couldn't be angry, but my Gramma's necklace was still gone, and I still felt just as bad about it. I just then felt guilty for feeling wronged in the first place. Maybe I'd rather just still be angry with them. I don't want to feel guilty for being angry about Sam. They played with Sam carelessly and broke him for me. And I think I want to be angry about that. 1 Link to comment
Demented Daisy August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 (edited) Season 8 took for me one of my most favorite characters on television ever and pretty much made me hate him - and I don't say that lightly. I had stuck by Sam all through season 4 and yes, even then I still loved him, but season 8 ruined him for me, and I'm still trying to recover. That that could happen by mistake... that just almost makes it worse. Oops, we completely ruined a character you loved... we didn't mean to. Ah, here's the disconnect. I didn't hate Sam in S4. I was disappointed, but in the writers, not the character. It felt completely out of character for Sam to say that he trusted Ruby because she saved his life. Well of course she did. She needed him alive. And it didn't make sense to me that Sam couldn't figure that out. But it's what TPTB needed him to do to move the story along, so it's what he did. Again, in S8, I wasn't mad at Sam. I hand waved the whole thing because it made no sense. No freaking sense at all. As much as TPTB insisted that it was maturity, I felt that they needed Sam to not look for Dean, so he didn't. The unfortunate side effect was that he didn't look for Kevin, either. I think they wanted Dean to be in Purgatory for a year; for some bizarre reason, they thought the only way it could happen was for Sam to not even look. It's a ludicrous idea. Monsters weren't just popping in and out of Purgatory, as far as we knew. Sam could have busted his butt for a year, looking for Dean and Cas, but unable to get into Purgatory. It would have made perfect sense. But for whatever reason, they decided to go in a different direction. A ridiculous direction, but I think we all know what I think about it at this point. As I said in the ep thread, I don't think they thought it through. I think they came up with the idea and worked the story around that. Did they think the audience would just go along with whatever they gave us? I don't know. But I do think they completely misjudged the audience and I can't be angry with the characters when TPTB screw up. As always, mileage varies. ETA For what it's worth, I'm pretty angry about Demon Dean. But I'm not angry at him for taking on the Mark or using the Blade. I'm angry at TPTB for thinking it's a good idea. I may change my mind, depending on what they do with the character in the upcoming season. As of this moment, though, I hate what they are doing. Edited August 22, 2014 by Demented Daisy 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 Again, in S8, I wasn't mad at Sam. I hand waved the whole thing because it made no sense. No freaking sense at all. As much as TPTB insisted that it was maturity, I felt that they needed Sam to not look for Dean, so he didn't. The unfortunate side effect was that he didn't look for Kevin, either. And if they'd stopped here, I could've likely waved it off as ridiculous, too, but the writers kept going... Like with the flashback and Sam's brushing Dean off at the end of episode 3, Sam not being sorry for making Dean feel bad when he didn't look for him, but instead treating Dean like he was wrong, Sam not really apologizing for not looking for Kevin, but instead justifying it with "but I had this normal life I'd never, ever had before" (which: not really true and not a justification for leaving someone you know and were responsible for in the hands of Crowley, likely being tortured), and if that wasn't all bad enough, pointing at the whole thing as "humorous." The writers put in Kevin's phone messages to Sam to indicate how bad it was ending with the "eeeeat me"s just to draw attention - "humorously" - to how much of a selfish dick Sam had been. * Then there was the also previously out of character, in my opinion, trying to kill Benny and all the crap that surrounded that. It just went on and on with all of this becoming part of canon as part of Sam's character. At some point, it became difficult for me to ignore and I had to start to wonder "Is this what Sam is now?" For me, it certainly seemed to be what the writers thought he was, since they revisited it over and over in the worst ways possible. And I really disliked this version of Sam - pretty much hated him - and for about 12 episodes, there was hardly a let up or bright spot to tell me I could just shrug the "inconsistent" stuff off. This was Sam now. And I was angry at the writers for that, but it was difficult not to also dislike Sam, since this was now who Sam was. * Maybe it's because I did love Sam as a character so much that I took this personally, but it seemed to me like a slap in the face to those of us who really liked Sam. Like hee, hee, hee wasn't Sam a total dick? Let's all laugh at how he left Kevin to be tortured, and now Kevin's putting him in his place. Link to comment
catrox14 August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 I can understand your frustration. At least they never turned Sam into an actual fucking demon :(. Talk about character assassination...:( dead and soul is dead too now. My poor Dean :( Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 (edited) @catrox14 - At least they never turned Sam into an actual fucking demon : True, you got me there... but they made sure Sam was actually fucking a demon. ; ) And he sort of became a - something (maybe a demon. He had black eyes) - for about 10 minutes or so until God detoxed him. Talk about character assassination...:( dead and soul is dead too now. My poor Dean :( I do hope for your sake this doesn't end too badly. At least we know that despite taking on the mark of Cain willingly, in the end Dean did not want to be a demon and would rather have died. I can't say that necessarily for whatever it was that Sam almost became. He went into that one with eyes open, knew that he was going to turn into a monster in order to kill Lilith, and he chose to do it anyway. I think that was in character though by that point, and I also think Sam expected to be killed (most likely by Dean) afterwards, so I'm okay with Sam being okay with it. I'm more afraid of whatever it is that Sam is going to do that makes Demon Dean call Sam the real monster. Whatever it is can't be good, and I'm kinda scared. Edited August 22, 2014 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment
catrox14 August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 (edited) Heh. I was so confused by your comment about fucking a demon....and I was like what the hell have I missed? What demon did Dean fuck? And worse yet.. I MISSED A DEAN SEX SCENE?? NOOOOO And then I realized you meant Sam. LOL. Yeah, I never did figure out why his eyes had to go black other than a cool and creepy visual effect. I agree with you on whatever makes them question who is the real monster. Eep :(. Edited August 22, 2014 by catrox14 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 Ah, here's the disconnect. I didn't hate Sam in S4. I was disappointed, but in the writers, not the character. It felt completely out of character for Sam to say that he trusted Ruby because she saved his life. Well of course she did. She needed him alive. And it didn't make sense to me that Sam couldn't figure that out. But it's what TPTB needed him to do to move the story along, so it's what he did. Exactly, sometimes it's like TPTB have an idea that doesn't really fit in this show, but they really, really want to do it anyway, so they force the characters and this universe to fit into their idea. I do understand what they were trying to do with both Sam and Dean at the start of S8--or I think I do--I'm just sorry that they skipped over who these guys actually were to get the characters there. Doesn't make me hate or like either one, just makes my head hurt when I have to try so hard to make the storylines work given what I already know about these guys. 1 Link to comment
trxr4kids August 22, 2014 Share August 22, 2014 Exactly, sometimes it's like TPTB have an idea that doesn't really fit in this show, but they really, really want to do it anyway, so they force the characters and this universe to fit into their idea. I do understand what they were trying to do with both Sam and Dean at the start of S8--or I think I do--I'm just sorry that they skipped over who these guys actually were to get the characters there. I was composing this long winded rambling post in my head since yesterday, trying to figure out how to express this exactly. I was going to include examples and in my head there were possibly illustrations but you said it first and in a much more coherent way than I could have. This is what has been driving me nuts about this show for season after season. I keep hoping foolishly every season that Sam and Dean will be the Sam and Dean I enjoyed watching, instead I end up thinking wtf. This show has become the train wreck I can't look away from. I feel like one of the biggest problems is that the writers are trying to come up with a bigger bad and more shocking revelations each season, instead of coming up with interesting monsters and actual character insight. The other IMO is that they should never have Dean or Sam talk about their feelings, it's always a disaster for whichever character had to spew it. The viewers are almost always outraged by what was said on behalf of one brother or the other and it always seems OOC character to me going back to even to Dean's speech to DeadSam in AHBL. Link to comment
trxr4kids August 28, 2014 Share August 28, 2014 (edited) catrox14, on 27 Aug 2014 - 9:32 PM, said: And even going back to s1, Sam can be pretty judgmental. But I get where you are coming from AwesomeO4000 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AwesomO4000, on 28 Aug 2014 - 12:34 AM, said: I agree with you that Sam can be pretty judgemental at times. For me, my complaint here was more Sam's "he's a vampire, so of course he should die" attitude that seemed odd. Generally Sam was the brother who wanted to give monsters a chance, and considering Benny helped Dean, and Dean trusted him - which if anything should've convinced Sam a monster should be given a chance first it would be Dean of all people trusting him - it would seem Sam wouldn't usually have made a snap judgement here. But it seemed Sam deciding he hated Benny from the moment he met him and insinuating even then that Benny should die is what to me seemed out of character. * More like something you'd expect from a jealous lover in a soap opera than something Sam would actually do. Taking response to all episodes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If one thing about Sam is consistent, it's that he's judgemental of everyones judgement but his own. The monsters Sam gave the benefit of the doubt to were monsters/people he judged as being trustworthy, not Dean. When Dean wanted to work with Gordon he immediately reacted poorly, he was proven right, but he still had no basis for his feelings at the time. Dean told him the angels were dicks, Sam didn't believe it til he saw it. So to me Sam distrusting Benny made sense for Sam because it was Dean's judgement he didn't trust, just like with Ruby. I'm not Sam bashing here either Dean has his own issues too. This just seems to me to be the one thing about Sam that is his biggest issue, he's a control freak. I can't recall which episode it was when Dean said Sam and John were like two peas in a pod, but they are in this way and a few others but I digress. ETA There's nothing wrong with Sam trusting his own judgement, it's the way that when anyone disagrees with him he wheedles, cajoles, nags and whines to get others to agree with him. The first example that comes to mind is how he would talk about John to Dean instead of just accepting Dean's right to his own feelings. You would think what with Sam being the smart one and all that he could lay out why he thinks what he does without sounding like a 8 year old trying to get to stay up past bedtime. Edited August 28, 2014 by trxr4kids Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 28, 2014 Share August 28, 2014 (edited) There's nothing wrong with Sam trusting his own judgement, it's the way that when anyone disagrees with him he wheedles, cajoles, nags and whines to get others to agree with him. The first example that comes to mind is how he would talk about John to Dean instead of just accepting Dean's right to his own feelings. I can see some of your points here - and both brothers are guilty of this, because Dean wasn't about to trust Sam on Lenore any more than Sam was on Gordon and Dean didn't trust Sam or Bobby when it came to Castiel in season 6 - but I do not agree with you entirely on the Dean's right to his own feelings part. For me Sam wasn't simply questioning Dean's feelings about John. Sam was mostly questioning John's treatment of them - including Dean - and in my opinion, Sam was mostly correct about that. John shouldn't have been treating either of them that way, starting with running off on Dean and letting Dean think something was horribly wrong rather than having the common decency to fill Dean in on what he (John) was doing rather than treating him worse than a need-to-know-basis grunt under his command. But despite that awful treatment, Dean was willing to just pick up and follow John's orders again, happy just to know John was alive and to continue being treated like crap. So for me it was more than just Dean's feelings towards John that Sam was questioning. The ironic thing for me was that after being beaten down so much for his opinions on the matter and being accused of being the crappy son and the one who caused all the family problems all the time - like how Sam "abandoned" the family - when Sam considered that maybe Dean was right and John was better than Sam thought he had been, Dean changed his mind and decided maybe John shouldn't have treated them that way. And then was supremely annoyed with Sam for thinking maybe John wasn't so bad after all. Well, Dean, you wanted Sam to respect John more - you got your wish. So then Dean was acting like he had the moral high ground - again - even though that was the same point Sam had been trying to argue earlier when Dean was insinuating that Sam was the "bad son" because of that attitude. So whereas sometimes Sam might nag and whine to try to get his point across, I would argue that Dean resorts to insults and brow-beating. It was interesting to me how it started out that being like John was an admirable thing to Dean and even questioning John's motives was an affront until Sam decided that maybe Dean was right about that after all, then all of a sudden being like John was treated as an insult by Dean, and he used that insult against Sam like it was a given all along. So I guess in Dean's mind, John being a jerk was only true when Dean decided it was... which I would say puts both brothers on pretty even footing in the being judgemental department. So to me Sam distrusting Benny made sense for Sam because it was Dean's judgement he didn't trust, just like with Ruby. I'm not Sam bashing here either Dean has his own issues too. This just seems to me to be the one thing about Sam that is his biggest issue, he's a control freak. I'm still not convinced of the argument that Sam is a control freak. While I agree that Sam lets his emotions get in the way of his decision-making when it comes to believing Dean's judgement at times, Sam has no trouble trusting Dean's judgement at other times. He immediately trusted that Dean was right about John not being John in "Devil's Trap," and Sam will often follow Dean's plans, fully believing in Dean's abilities to lead the way. Sam often defers to Dean first in terms of asking what they are going to do. I don't think an actual control freak would do this, especially with some of Dean's "plans." In my opinion, there is no way a true control freak would put their faith in some of Dean's plans. Sam generally only asks to know the score, and then he'll put his fate in Dean's hands. To me, that's not really control freak behavior. Edited August 28, 2014 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment
trxr4kids August 28, 2014 Share August 28, 2014 (edited) For me Sam wasn't simply questioning Dean's feelings about John. Sam was mostly questioning John's treatment of them - including Dean - and in my opinion, Sam was mostly correct about that. I completely agree Sam was right about how shitty John was and I think Sam was trying to get Dean to see that he didn't deserve that kinda crap, but the way he went about it was whiny, abrasive and argumentative. Sam's a smart guy, he should've been aware that Dean is a stubborn hard headed jackass who doesn't ever want to see fault in his family. The ironic thing for me was that after being beaten down so much for his opinions on the matter and being accused of being the crappy son and the one who caused all the family problems all the time - like how Sam "abandoned" the family - when Sam considered that maybe Dean was right and John was better than Sam thought he had been, Dean changed his mind and decided maybe John shouldn't have treated them that way. At the time Dean and Sam had their respective changes of heart regarding John he had just died and they were grieving, scared and angry about the deal he made, I could see that change your perspective. Also I know this has been rehashed ad nauseum and retconned in the show, but I never thought that Dean or Sam(seasons 1-3) thought he had abandoned their family. I know in the pilot Dean says I haven't bothered you, never asked you for anything, to me that doesn't say they didn't talk or text or even see eachother, just that Dean was being respectful of Sam's choices in a very Dean like way, by verbally mocking him but physically supporting him by not showing up in his classes or his dorm room drunk or mauled. So whereas sometimes Sam might nag and whine to try to get his point across, I would argue that Dean resorts to insults and brow-beating. Like I said Dean has his issues too and this is one of them. While I agree that Sam lets his emotions get in the way of his decision-making when it comes to believing Dean's judgement at times, Sam has no trouble trusting Dean's judgement at other times. Sam has no trouble believing in Dean or anyone else's judgement as long as he agrees, which is why I said he's a control freak. It doesn't make him a bad person but it does make the chaos and disorder his life has been probable torture for him. ETA This is just my opinion, I'm not trying to convert anyone. As someone who is a recovering control freak I see shades of me when I was younger in Sam. I also never really had a problem deferring to my older sibling even into my adulthood, unless of course I thought she was wrong. I also went along with a lot of her sketchy plans when we were teens, it was a win/win for me because if it turned out well I had fun and if it didn't it was her dumb idea. Edited August 28, 2014 by trxr4kids Link to comment
7kstar August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 On the Head of a Pin had so many interesting questions and dynamics for both Sam and Dean. But instead of dealing with the fallout and the emotional breakdowns for all characters, they jump to "It's a terrible Life" and to be honest is why I hate that ep. If you're going to break a character, then DEAL WITH IT!!!! Otherwise don't bother. Had they dealt with it in a clever way, okay I know that's impossible for them. But if they had, I think Sam would have looked better and we might have been where the writers wanted us to be. Instead they skip it like never mind It's not a biggie and loose the opportunity. So for me I went from liking parts of season 4 to wishing they would just get it over already so they could repair the damage in season 5 and get the brothers back together hunting again. It almost felt like any enjoyable eps after Head of a Pin, was an accident. Part of me is excited about this season 10 but the other half is scared to death that I will go back into just kill the show. If they deal with the moments that should have been dealt with and it adds growth to both brothers and creates a show that people are excited to see, I can forgive them some of their worst choices. But I really really hope it doesn't suck. I want to get back to cheering for the boys. Link to comment
supposebly August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 When Dean wanted to work with Gordon he immediately reacted poorly, he was proven right, but he still had no basis for his feelings at the time. I have to disagree on this one as an example of Sam being distrustful of Dean's judgement in general. The way I interpreted it at the time and I think it was clearly presented was that Sam had a hunch about Gordon and he thought Dean's judgement was not normal because Dean just sort of latched onto Gordon, no questions asked. The reasons why Dean trusted Gord had nothing to do with Dean in general but more with what Dean was going through at the time and refused to deal with. Sam acted on a hunch, called Ellen and asked her about him. She was the one who basically told him to stay away from Gordon, thus confirming his hunch. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 I completely agree Sam was right about how shitty John was and I think Sam was trying to get Dean to see that he didn't deserve that kinda crap, but the way he went about it was whiny, abrasive and argumentative. Sam's a smart guy, he should've been aware that Dean is a stubborn hard headed jackass who doesn't ever want to see fault in his family. Good point, though I wouldn't necessarily question Sam's smarts at using the whiny and abrasive tactic here, because I actually think based on what had recently happened, that Sam was potentially looking for an argument as an alternative outcome to Dean listening to his side. After Jessica's death, Sam's head was not in a good place. He blamed himself, he blamed their family's bad luck, and he blamed the demon for what happened. And even though he didn't blame Dean for what happened, because in his mind the demon was the only thing solid Sam could grab on to and act on and that he (wrongly) perceived that Dean might be keeping him from acting on it, I can see where Sam might focus some frustration on Dean. And I think this was what Sam was doing. Even though winning the argument so to speak was something Sam should have wanted, I can see his starting a fight being somehow, whether he should want to or not, emotionally cathartic - so win win I guess. Sam could either win his argument - which as you mention wasn't going to be easy with Dean's yay family/Dad stance at that point - or start a fight and either would work for him as an outcome. Not that I'm condoning Sam using antagonistic tactics to start a fight in this circumstance - that's pretty much a jackass move - I'm just saying that winning the argument may not have necessarily been Sam's only goal here. Whether conscious or not, I could see Sam itching for a fight to get rid of some of that frustration and anger. And if getting Dean to see his side didn't work, then cathartic argument it is. Though of course that wasn't going to really help in the long run and probably just would make him feel bad later, but when Sam is really grieving, I've seen over the seasons that he often throws logic out the window, so I'm not all that surprised he didn't use a logical argument tactic. I actually would've been more surprised if he did. At the time Dean and Sam had their respective changes of heart regarding John he had just died and they were grieving, scared and angry about the deal he made, I could see that change your perspective. Also I know this has been rehashed ad nauseum and retconned in the show, but I never thought that Dean or Sam(seasons 1-3) thought he had abandoned their family. I should have been more specific. In the early seasons it was more John who continued this perception - especially when the two of them argued... though at times (and mostly retroactively later as you said) Dean was not above poking that bear as well. Sam has no trouble believing in Dean or anyone else's judgement as long as he agrees, which is why I said he's a control freak. It doesn't make him a bad person but it does make the chaos and disorder his life has been probable torture for him. ETA This is just my opinion, I'm not trying to convert anyone. As someone who is a recovering control freak I see shades of me when I was younger in Sam. I also never really had a problem deferring to my older sibling even into my adulthood, unless of course I thought she was wrong. I also went along with a lot of her sketchy plans when we were teens, it was a win/win for me because if it turned out well I had fun and if it didn't it was her dumb idea. Interesting. I never really looked at it that way, because I didn't really consider Sam necessarily agreeing with "we'll just storm the castle" as being the best strategy before, but I suppose that could be the case. During any rewatch I do in the future, I guess I'll have to pay more attention to that. Of course your "win/win" strategy might be kind of risky in Sam's case, because not turning out well might mean dead in their case rather than just being a dumb idea. ; ) I think we're actually more on the same page than we realize. Link to comment
SueB August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 (edited) trxr4kids: in my head there were possibly illustrations I want to see these! :) Speaking of Sam and Dean's relationship to John, did anyone else think that as time has gone on Dean has kinda mellowed again about John? In Bad Boys Dean was defending John to Sam...again. I know I personally see things differently regarding my parents relationship to me as I progress on in life (both are deceased). So I think it's not unrealistic to have their life's experience change their perspective. For Sam, I think he truly regretted his last few heated exchanges with John after John's death and that shaded his perspective somewhat. But I also think knowing he put it on Dean to kill him if necessary was a bit of a head trip. Then after "The Song Remains The Same", I felt like he got some peace by at least telling his unwitting father that he loved him. I think he also felt much more comfortable than Dean talking with Henry about his Dad in "As Time Goes By". So to some extent, I kind of feel Sam has spent more mental energy examining his relationship with his father. I think Sam sees the bad and believes it to be bad but he's not as emotional about it. He sort of accepted what happened, categorizes it as "not good", but I think he also sees his father as a victim of "destiny". For Dean, I think he went from idolizing the guy to being pissed about how he was raised in S3 (when he was being honest with "himself"). But Dean was also looking staring down the deadline to his eternity in Hell. So some self-examination of how he got himself there was warranted. Then in S5 in "Sam, Interrupted" the faux therapist says "Let's talk about your father." Dean later describes the experience as being 'thraped'. So in S5 I think Dean knew he had a lot of Daddy issues and really didn't like focusing on them. In S6 Demon!Lisa taunts him about the miles of Daddy issues so he must have shared some with her. But he also got to BE a Daddy to Ben. And found himself doing the same things. It was a plot point that he hated that he was 'turning into his father'. However, at the END of S6... Dean just mindwiped Ben and Lisa. A JOHN MANEUVER if ever I saw one. So... I'm thinking Dean's experience of having Lisa and Ben nearly die because of him kinda flipped a switch again in his mind regarding John. In "As Time Goes By", Dean couldn't even deal with Henry. He was pissed at Henry for putting the MoL mission ahead of John at first. Then he stopped Henry from attempting to change the past. Because Dean knows they can't risk the Apocalypse... again. So, I think Dean showed protection towards John in that episode while letting John's life play out...again...exactly as it had. I don't recall any further mention of John until S9 "Bad Boys". By then, Dean seems back to pro-John in terms of blaming Dean for being reckless. Now some of this is Dean's epic self-loathing but I also think Dean has become a quasi-paternal figure to many since Bobby died. Kevin, Garth, Charlie, Kristy. Sam has always been his semi-child in Dean's heart (although he doesn't acknowledge it and may not realize it). So maybe all his "paternal" experiences give him empathy. IDK for sure, I just think Dean has stopped putting responsibility on John for his personal issues and thinks it's mostly his own weakness ('I'm poison' and somewhere there was an accusation of him being weak). So... I think Sam actually has overcome MOST of his Daddy issues. His rebellious streak to authority figures is permanent. Dean, OTOH, I think has glossed over his Daddy issues and completely internalized everything as his own character failure. I believe in some conventions, Jensen has shown more support for the character of John than most fans. Which is kinda interesting. Suzanne Gomez promised on Twitter that their will be some talk about how they each view John on the 10-year Supernatural Retrospective (airing the night before the first episode for S10). I hope we get some insights. Edited August 29, 2014 by SueB Link to comment
catrox14 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 (edited) Well I think Dean's softening on John is just shitty writing personally I was livid watching Dean defend John to Henry. I mean Dean saying he did the best he could was a big ass retcon that makes my head spin around. It's as bad as the retcon of the boys hanging out with Foster Daddy Bobby which effectively retcons Dean's being Sam's defacto parent as we were told throughout the entire first 5 seasons. And why Dean is screaming at his demon self in s3 about how John was an asshole to him. I do not understand it to this day why they relented on him being a not great Dad. I think it's more that in s8 the writers forgot a whole lot of canon and/or purposefully chose to ignore canon. It would have been better for Dean to tell Henry exactly how crappy their childhood was and explain to him they were on the road and that Dean essentially raised Sam in hotel rooms. And that maybe that was because John didn't know how to handle the boys on his own because he didn't have his own father around to learn from. (I'm ignoring that John did in fact know his father in In the Beginning when he was 19 as we learned by in s3). But instead we got Dean defending John and blaming Henry for doing essentially the same thing that John did to Dean. John left Dean to watch over Sam when he went hunting which nearly got Sam killed and IMO John never really forgave Dean for that mistake and that disobedience. And putting the quest for vengeance on Azazel ahead of other things. If Dean was thinking about Ben the show should have made that clear. So couple that with the Grand Canyon nonsense that they totally screwed up and IMO Sam not looking for Dean was a retcon because it was just never well explained. So I dunno, I feel like it was purposeful to cause yet another conflict between Dean and Sam regardless if it's organic storytelling Edited August 29, 2014 by catrox14 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 On the Head of a Pin had so many interesting questions and dynamics for both Sam and Dean. But instead of dealing with the fallout and the emotional breakdowns for all characters, they jump to "It's a terrible Life" and to be honest is why I hate that ep. If you're going to break a character, then DEAL WITH IT!!!! Otherwise don't bother. I'm not going to blame IATL for the issues that "On the Head of a Pin" brought up, because I didn't get the feeling that the writers ever intended on dealing with the issues long-term or in depth, so for me OtHoaP was mostly more angst piled on for the sake of angst and on that level, it wasn't satisfying for me. On the other hand, IATL was. I enjoyed the ghost story, I liked the Ghostfacers cameo. I liked the fun way Sam Wesson and Dean Smith took on the case and figured things out. It was fun for me. I do agree it was an abrupt transition, but I don't blame this episode for it. Had they dealt with it in a clever way, okay I know that's impossible for them. But if they had, I think Sam would have looked better and we might have been where the writers wanted us to be. Instead they skip it like never mind It's not a biggie and loose the opportunity. Again I don't think they ever intended to make Sam look better, because I thought the things were there already in the episode, but the writers chose to focus on the "bad" things. Sam was angry that the angels took Dean and were going to make him torture. It was his main motivation for finding Dean, but in the end, Sam's killing Alastair and the way he did it was painted in a bad light, and that was the take away I think that we were supposed to get, because that was the point that was brought up later. More of the piling on the angst, having the crushed Dean money shot... until they suddenly decided the audience needed a break * insert fun episode here * In this case, I just happened to enjoy the fun, less angsty episode better and happened to prefer the interesting character quirks that that episode brought out to the more depressing ones of OtHoaP. Of course opinions are going to vary and I entirely get that. Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 (edited) Speaking of Sam and Dean's relationship to John, did anyone else think that as time has gone on Dean has kinda mellowed again about John? In Bad Boys Dean was defending John to Sam...again. I know I personally see things differently regarding my parents relationship to me as I progress on in life (both are deceased). So I think it's not unrealistic to have their life's experience change their perspective. SueB, I too think that Sam has come to terms with his daddy issues and finally found some peace with who John was. I think Sam has long forgiven John for the way they were raised and realizes that even though he wasn't father-of-the-year, he did love them in his own way and did the best that he could given that John was a pretty screwed up jackass himself. But Dean--in true Dean-fashion--has just stuffed his daddy issues down and let them fester more. I think his rabid need to defend John speaks volumes to me--it's very broken-home syndrome. I do think, on some level, Dean knows that John's wasn't ever that big damn hero that he built him up to be, but he's spent too long making that fantasy reality that he doesn't know how to let go of it for fear that everything he's based his life on will come crumbling down. Jensen has mentioned at cons many times that he thinks that if there was one person Dean could bring back, it would be John. On the Head of a Pin had so many interesting questions and dynamics for both Sam and Dean. But instead of dealing with the fallout and the emotional breakdowns for all characters, they jump to "It's a terrible Life" and to be honest is why I hate that ep. If you're going to break a character, then DEAL WITH IT!!!! Otherwise don't bother. I'm not going to blame IATL for the issues that "On the Head of a Pin" brought up, because I didn't get the feeling that the writers ever intended on dealing with the issues long-term or in depth, so for me OtHoaP was mostly more angst piled on for the sake of angst and on that level, it wasn't satisfying for me. On the other hand, IATL was. I enjoyed the ghost story, I liked the Ghostfacers cameo. I liked the fun way Sam Wesson and Dean Smith took on the case and figured things out. It was fun for me. I do agree it was an abrupt transition, but I don't blame this episode for it. I don't blame It's A Terrible Life for my hatred of On The Head Of A Pin; I put that solely on On The Head Of A Pin. I actually think On The Head Of A Pin is the worst episode of S4...yes, I said it, the worst and could possibly tie for the worst of the series (but there's so many, it's really hard to make that determination this morning without having at least one caffeinated beverage in my system). Why do I hate this On The Head Of A Pin so? They take the issue of torture and turn it into a crappy angstfest. This show likes to bring out torture when they want to think of themselves as being edgy and shocking--in my opinion, torture is so much more than making someone bleed and the physical pain it produces--so they end of being silly and maudlin. I just don't think this show has the mentality to tackle such an issue, so for me it would have been best if they just hadn't jumped into the fray to begin with. Plus, Blasphemy Alert!!!!--I think this is Jensen's weakest performance in the entire run of the show. Before y'all get a screamy at me, let me first say that everyone has a weakest something and it doesn't mean that I think Jensen is terrible or anything like that--I think he did fine given what he had to work with--I just don't think he quite got there in this one, as he usually does, and Christopher Heyerdahl ends up overshadowing him, IMO. Possibly a different director was needed here, or possibly they needed to actually think about what they were doing before they did it...I don't know, I don't like it. On the other hand, It's A Terrible Life fits perfectly in their wheelhouse, IMO. A lighthearted ghost story that pokes fun at everything Supernatural isn't. I'm not saying that they shouldn't ever try to tackle something outside their comfort zone, but if they're going to, I would prefer they actually try to tackle it rather than breeze by it. So, I find I can enjoy It's A Terrible Life for being exactly what it was trying to be and maybe even being a little more than it wanted to be. And, I despise On The Head Of A Pin for not only being far less than it wanted to be, but also for being far less than it should have been--if that even makes any sense at all. Edited August 29, 2014 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
trxr4kids August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 (edited) Of course your "win/win" strategy might be kind of risky in Sam's case, because not turning out well might mean dead in their case rather than just being a dumb idea. ; ) I think we're actually more on the same page than we realize. Clearly you didn't participate in some of my sisters plans, j/k sorta. Supposebly< ya you're right, scratch off that example. It's hard to come with examples to support my theory because I can't use anything from seasons 4, 6, 7, 8 or 9, due to Sam being not original recipe Sam in some shape or form. Maybe I'm just projecting to make Sam relatable to me. As a theory it works for me because Sam's life has always been out of control so it would make sense for him to try an exert control on anything he could even when he shouldn't and I can excuse his over the top lashing out speeches during season 9 because taking away his control would have been especially horrible for him. Of course now that I've typed that out it doesn't really make him sound like a control freak, so there goes that, lol. SueB and DDD, I agree Sam has worked through his father issues, in Bad Boys Sam never lashed out about John like he would've done in the past, he just quietly thanked Dean at the end. Give me a moment while I bask in the glory of Sam being allowed a good quality. Okay, as for Dean it's hard to say because I agree with Catrox about shitty writing for the most part but like SueB pointed out it's not unreasonable to have your feelings in regards to a dead parent and their actions swing wildly depending on the circumstances. Edited to respond to DDDs blasphemy.... I agree, I don't think Jensen can sell Dean as a torturer because it's not how he sees Dean. On the subject of torture porn, during season 9 I wondered if restraints became part of the wardrobe dept instead of props because I swear someone was restrained and or tortured for most of the episodes. Also Awesome mentioned the money shot of Dean angst, I'm sick of it, do they not remember that he has other facial expressions, I don't think we've seen Dean genuinely smile or laugh in so long I don't remember. Edited August 29, 2014 by trxr4kids 1 Link to comment
supposebly August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 As a theory it works for me because Sam's life has always been out of control so it would make sense for him to try an exert control on anything he could even when he shouldn't and I can excuse his over the top lashing out speeches during season 9 because taking away his control would have been especially horrible for him. That I can absolutely agree on. It's his whole life defined and shaped by outside forces and having that done to him by the one person who knows, who would hate that as much and has been affected by all of it, the champion of Team Free Will, his brother, I have no problem with his lashing out in season 9. Was he unfair, sure, but I really don't have a problem with the writing there. I think he was actually a lot calmer than I would have been. But there is a little control freak in me. ;-) 1 Link to comment
Demented Daisy August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 I loathe On the Head of a Pin just as much and for the same reasons as Triple D. So preach it, sister! 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 Edited to respond to DDDs blasphemy.... I agree, I don't think Jensen can sell Dean as a torturer because it's not how he sees Dean. On the subject of torture porn, during season 9 I wondered if restraints became part of the wardrobe dept instead of props because I swear someone was restrained and or tortured for most of the episodes. Also Awesome mentioned the money shot of Dean angst, I'm sick of it, do they not remember that he has other facial expressions, I don't think we've seen Dean genuinely smile or laugh in so long I don't remember. What? There's smiling and laughing available to them? Wow, you just blew my mind! ;) 1 Link to comment
catrox14 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 ited to respond to DDDs blasphemy.... I agree, I don't think Jensen can sell Dean as a torturer because it's not how he sees Dean. On the subject of torture porn, during season 9 I Yeah, I'm pretty much opposite on Jensen's acting here. I think it was one of his best performances. I was a little off on that performance until I watched the episode a handful of times and I really studied Jensen's face and body acting and now I'm pretty well blown away. I now believe that Jensen was playing Dean as the Reluctant Torturer here. I don't think Dean is a hardcore GARRR I LOVE TO TORTURE IT TURNS ME ON GARRR kind of guy at heart . In OTHoaP he was compelled to by Cas and the dick angels to do it. He flat out told Cas he wouldn't like what came back out. Dean had to do what made him feel relief in Hell but overwhelming guilt for hurting other souls now that he's not in Hell anymore. He's having to relive that shit all over again. And deep down Dean is terrified of Alastair and I think Jensen included that deep fear in his performance. I think Jensen played it with a perfect mix of conflicting emotions and motivations in Dean. He might want to exact the retribution from Alastair, but he's still afraid of Alastair. And he's even more afraid of becoming the man he was in Hell, torturing people. And if he really allowed himself to enjoy it, it would change him forever to a thing he doesn't want to be....../commences gross sobbing. I found it really fascinating how each time Dean was up in Alastair's grill there was some bravado. but when he turned away you could see Dean regrouping. Every moment Dean started to get the upper hand Alastair would push the right mental button to throw Dean off. All of the comparisons to John and how John was a stronger man worked to shake Dean's "GARRR torture" side. Then when Alastair delivers the blow that Dean actually broke the first seal, you could see Dean die on the inside. That was tremendous subtle work. So yeah it really pissed me off that Cas asked Dean to torture in s9 and Dean was all GREAT. I just assume that was part of the MoC influence. 1 Link to comment
SueB August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 Well I'm with catrox14 on Jensen's acting in On The Head of A Pin and loved the episode. But I don't consider not liking it 'blasphemy'. OTOH, if you said you thought the plot of Man's Best Friends With Benefits was superb -- I might have to judge you. Regarding Jensen as torturer - I think it's been shifting over the years. I thought he was a reluctant torturer through S4. But later seasons I think he's a little over the top some times. Maybe it's him putting on "torturer face" but the screaming doesn't work for me. On the other hand, although it wasn't torture, I was hella-impressed with the way he took down Flagstaff (from an acting perspective) to the ground. I thought that out-of-control move and the animal move at the end of the episode w/ Gadreel was suitably other-worldly freaky. Not that I remotely approve of Dean's actions (her being snotty does not warrant the move IMO), but I thought Jensen sold "Dean is out of control" well. Link to comment
catrox14 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 Maybe it's him putting on "torturer face" but the screaming doesn't work for me. On the other hand, although it wasn't torture, I was hella-impressed with the way he took down Flagstaff (from an acting perspective) to the ground. I thought that out-of-control move and the animal move at the end of the episode w/ Gadreel was suitably other-worldly freaky. Not that I remotely approve of Dean's actions (her being snotty does not warrant the move IMO), but I thought Jensen sold "Dean is out of control" well I'm trying to think of times when Dean was that much of a torturer past s4 other than s9, which by the way I agree with you SueB on Jensen's acting in with the doctor angel person. I fucking hated that they had Dean do that. She was snotty but I still felt like she was baiting him. Trying to get a reaction. I know that's just my headcanon But I agree that every time Dean was ready to go all MoC on someone Jensen accessed something I have never seen out of him before and it freaked me right the frak out. I can't even exactly describe it. It didn't seem to be rage or bloodlust. The only way I can describe it is more of an absence of control...bah not even that. It's almost like a switch goes off and he becomes "KILL/Murder" sort of like Death is Death? It just is? It felt like he reacted to the taunt but maybe the taunt was just something that compelled "Murder" to come out. I found no joy in it. Not one little bit. It was legitimately terrifying and not in a wooo that's fun way. It was in a "Oh gods. Dean. Stop it. You are not you." It was way too disturbing and makes me really afraid for how demon!Dean is going to be in s10. Link to comment
DittyDotDot August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 (edited) Well I'm with catrox14 on Jensen's acting in On The Head of A Pin and loved the episode. But I don't consider not liking it 'blasphemy'. OTOH, if you said you thought the plot of Man's Best Friends With Benefits was superb -- I might have to judge you. I think you misunderstood what the blasphemy was...and warning, I'm probably going to blaspheme again...it's not disliking the episode that's blasphemy, but that I said I didn't think Jensen was particularly strong in that episode. It's, of course, a matter of perspective, but what I saw was Jensen Ackles playing the part and saying the lines of Dean Winchester, but I didn't feel at all like that was Dean Winchester. It's one of the few times that Jensen seems to be disconnected from Dean, for me, which of course makes me feel disconnected. I'm in no way hating on Jensen, this is a very difficult thing to pull off for almost any actor and I think you need the right director and circumstances to make it entirely work. This is probably a good time to lament the loss of Kim Manners, again, because he always seemed to have a knack for getting both Jared and Jensen to places they didn't really want to go. That doesn't mean I didn't intellectually get what they were trying to do--I understood that Dean was the reluctant torturer and that Alistair was the master torturer--I just couldn't connect with it emotionally. Edited August 29, 2014 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
SueB August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 I think you misunderstood what the blasphemy was I think I got it. And I might not agree but I think it falls well within the range of perception so... while I didn't feel that way, doesn't mean I couldn't see how other's might. I'm trying to think of times when Dean was that much of a torturer past s4 other than s9 6.16..And Then There Were None: Not!Bobby creature to figure out who was Eve -- not a big scene 6.21 Let Them Bleed: Demon minions #3,4,12 ... Dean was drinking heavily and pretty out of his mind with anger 7.15 RepoMan: flashback to S3 torturing Jeffery, wasn't over the top but was gruesome 8.02 What's Up Tiger Mommy: thief in jail cell, intermixed with werewolf in Purgatory ... pretty rough and deadly quiet (better than yelling) 9.03 I'm No Angel: rogue reaper, par-for-the-Dean-course torture. 9.18 MetaFiction: Gadreel...I REALLY hated his "persona" he adopted when he started to torture Gadreel** (before he took a break). After the break all we know is he beat the snot out of an angel. 9.21 King of the Damned: geared up to torture Ezra but Sam stopped him **It reminded me of his persona he adapted in 7.12 "Time After Time" when he was pretending he was going to rough up the bookie with Elliot Ness. In 7.12 I didn't care for that scene but I thought Dean was role playing. In 9.18 I thought Dean was playing it for real and it felt fake. Like Cas I liked "Old You" Dean from 2009 vice "The End" Dean and his apparent talent for torture. In On the Head of A Pin I too saw the reluctant torturer in Jensen's portrayal. But his reluctance seemed gone after that IMO. Maybe... maybe I'm just not picking up on it. I did like that he busted Cas for bringing him in to be his muscle in S9. I think "using Dean as a tool" was a huge theme of the season and I liked Dean's self-awareness that he was being used by many. It neatly fit into his self-image that he's a killer who is there to do the dirty work because there's no salvation for him. Link to comment
catrox14 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 Thanks SueB. I couldn't remember most of them other than s9. I would love for them to tie Dean torturing Alastair again as what sent him on that path to finding torture not unacceptable. Link to comment
Mcolleague August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 Late to the discussion but I have to say I'm surprised so many people didn't like OTHOAP. I love it. This is the best episode in the series for me, followed closely only by WIAWSNB. I thought the torture scene was brilliantly done, the dialogue, the directing, AND the acting. I loved the subtlety of Alastair exerting his dominance and control, even though he was tied up and Dean was the one with the knife. Alastair singing Cheek to Cheek was incredibly creepy. The song has been ruined forever. He immediately starts taunting - this must be emotionally hard for you. I shouldn't laugh. They sent you? He compares Dean to John - John was the stuff of heroes, but then came Dean. I couldn't break John but "daddy's little girl" couldn't take it. Even tied up, Alastair was still the torturer, that dynamic had so much history behind it and was incredibly convincing IMO. He then goes on to frame it as being Dean's fault, Dean's failure, Dean's choice, even though torture is by definition designed to systematically remove agency. The whole thing was psychologically chilling. By the time they got to the reveal that Dean broke the first seal, I was pretty much curled up whimpering in the corner. So in that sense, I don't think Jensen was trying to sell Dean-the-convincing-torturer. He was very much NOT in control of that situation, it would not have made sense for him to come across evil and out of control. It was supposed to be Dean trying to convince Alastair that the tables have turned, and being unconvincing. I thought that came across very very well, and I think it was one of Jensen's best performances in the series. MV though, of course. I thought this episode was brilliant. We are definitely not seeing writing of this calibre these days. I have rewatched this episode countless times, and know most of the dialogue by this point. Clearly a huge masochist. 1 Link to comment
SueB August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 It's my favorite too. I just don't care for the shouty torture stuff in later years. Link to comment
catrox14 August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 I have watched OTHofaP, Lazarus Rising, The End, WIANWSNB an unhealthy number of times. I have added First Born and Dean Purgatory episodes to that last for some of my favorite Jensen episodes Link to comment
7kstar August 29, 2014 Share August 29, 2014 I'm not going to blame IATL for the issues that "On the Head of a Pin" brought up, because I didn't get the feeling that the writers ever intended on dealing with the issues long-term or in depth, so for me OtHoaP was mostly more angst piled on for the sake of angst and on that level, it wasn't satisfying for me. On the other hand, IATL was. I enjoyed the ghost story, I liked the Ghostfacers cameo. I liked the fun way Sam Wesson and Dean Smith took on the case and figured things out. It was fun for me. I do agree it was an abrupt transition, but I don't blame this episode for it. Again I don't think they ever intended to make Sam look better, because I thought the things were there already in the episode, but the writers chose to focus on the "bad" things. Sam was angry that the angels took Dean and were going to make him torture. It was his main motivation for finding Dean, but in the end, Sam's killing Alastair and the way he did it was painted in a bad light, and that was the take away I think that we were supposed to get, because that was the point that was brought up later. More of the piling on the angst, having the crushed Dean money shot... until they suddenly decided the audience needed a break * insert fun episode here * In this case, I just happened to enjoy the fun, less angsty episode better and happened to prefer the interesting character quirks that that episode brought out to the more depressing ones of OtHoaP. Of course opinions are going to vary and I entirely get that. This is where I blame the writing. And I'll keep with if you have no intention of dealing with it, Don't DO it! I think if the fun episode had happened a little later I would have been all ready for it, but you have to remember I'M not a horror fan to begin with. And if Jensen wasn't in the show, I doubt I would be watching. I do think Head on a Pin was one of Jensen's strong ep's but where I get that from is the end scene with Cas and when he is trying to refuse to return to torturing. I would have to rewatch to see if there is something else that really sticks out as not so good. So for those that hate Jensen's acting in this one, that's your opinion and I'm not going to stomp on it, as I know there are times we disagree about Jared's and to be honest that is the power of acting. One person will get hit because of life issues and another will miss it because they don't relate to it. I have the interesting part of being the oldest daughter but also a middle child. I helped raised my little brother and sister. I also was under the shadow of the super smart brother and I just didn't measure up. I now know that I'm very creative so my smarts just isn't logic smarts. I also know that I'm the kind of director that sees how difficult a scene is and I respect an actor when they nail a scene, even if part of the ep doesn't work. So sometimes I start watching as a director or actor and it will pull up a performance because I know how difficult it is to deliver those scenes well. Also remember I didn't start watching live until season 4. I remember reading about some things and going WTF? But I also enjoy the heck out of yellow fever and even more after seeing some of the behind the scenes even though I don't like the ending and there are some really bad lines. But I will throw those out and only focus on what I like. I really blame the writing for the mess of Season 4. It has one of the best beginnings in my opinion and then it slips. It's such a roller-coaster ride. To tug at peoples heart strings for no reason is just bad form. So in some ways I think several of us are saying some of the same things but maybe not exactly the same way. But I would never feel that you have to agree with me or only like what I like, because that would make such a boring place. I don't know if I stated it well but hopefully it comes across without being too upsetting. :) Link to comment
DittyDotDot September 1, 2014 Share September 1, 2014 From the No Rest For The Wicked thread... This episode kind of is a compressed season 4 for me. Flailing and desperation and heartbreak and then it all goes to hell. What I don't understand in retrospect is why Lilith would try to kill Sam here. A test whether he is "The One"? Or was she faking? I was wondering about this when watching it yesterday. What I'm wondering is if Lilith was trying to change her own destiny also; if she killed the chosen one then she would never end up in that church later. Originally I thought all the trying to kill Sam in S3 stuff was somehow part of the demon's plan to manipulate Sam into doing what they eventually wanted, but Lilith actually trying to kill Sam in No Rest For The Wicked really made me wonder if Lilith wasn't the devoted and complicit followers that the other demons thought she was. It also helps Monster At The End Of This Book line up better retroactively now. Her wanting to make a deal an avoid her own fate makes more sense to me this way. Of course, TPTB had no idea that's where'd end when they did this episode, IMO, so who knows, but this is my current theory until someone else comes up with a better one. Link to comment
supposebly September 1, 2014 Share September 1, 2014 (edited) Her wanting to make a deal an avoid her own fate makes more sense to me this way. Of course, TPTB had no idea that's where'd end when they did this episode, IMO, so who knows, but this is my current theory until someone else comes up with a better one. That would be good if we ever actually knew her stance on this whole thing. Did we ever actually get her POV except for Monster at the End of the Book? I found it rather unbelievable that she didn't know the outcome of the prophecy. She was Lucifer's first, no? Shouldn't she know what's coming? And if she really wanted to avoid her faith, she could have just stopped breaking seals and go back to where she came from. I have no better theory but I like mine that she was testing and was a bit surprised that her ray of light didn't do anything at all to Sam. I don't quite remember Monster..... but I'm about to embark on a season 4 rewatch. Always hard because the man pain and the secrets and lies! are hard to digest for me. So, small increments. Very small increments. Edited September 1, 2014 by supposebly Link to comment
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