All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Aeryn13]

 

Consider SPN payback for Merlin then. Merlin was my favourite, sad what they did to him in the end. At least he got to keep his powers. Yes, I already guessed you would have been all over Sam's story like ants to honey if he had been your favourite.

 

It`s not a perfect comparism, though. As you said yourself Merlin had the powers. In that way he was still "the Chosen One" for most of the show, making him much more akin to Sam. And I flat-out thought Colin Morgan played the most sympathetic version of a Sue-character ever. I meant that I bought and enjoyed the emotional component in Merlin whereas I don`t anymore in Supernatural. 

 

As for storylines, I prefer supernatural ones to mundane human ones and supernatural characters to unspecial human ones. However, I also completely abhor Sue-pimped Chosen Ones because in most cases the writing fails spectacularly. Sometimes the acting can cushion it, sometimes make it 100 degrees worse.

 

 

This is why I don't understand the claims that Sam got whitewashed. The narrative was always more sympathetic to Dean. If people thought the writers were trying to blame Dean for Sam's actions in the past, that's nothing compared to last season when Sam was the bad guy who pushed poor hurt Dean into accepting the Mark..If only Sam had been more understanding and supportive, then Dean wouldn't have done what he did, according to some views I've heard.

   

I don`t think there was much blaming of Sam last Season or pushing responsibility onto him. Even I thought he had a legitimate gripe and a reason to be angry about the possession. Now his vile generalizations in the Purge? Totally out of line IMO and a completely falsety but I think him generalizing like that is consistent.

 

And even as angry as he was, I don`t consider it unreasonable to expect something like "I hate you now for what you did and it was an unforgiveable fuck-up" instead of "everything you ever did in your life was a fuck-up and you have never been anything else but a selfish coward".

 

But with the character, it`s either all good or all bad IMO. And he will readily accept or own a decision until he retroactively considers it a wrong one. Like stopping the trials. He had no problem with it till he learned of the Gadreel thing. After that, it was somehow another horrible betrayal and falsity from Dean. Whereas a) the two things are actually unrelated and b) if it WAS a horrible betrayal, it either was right away or not at all.

 

However, I don`t think the writers meant to blame Sam. After all, the entire slanted Ghostfacers "parallels" episode was written to point an accusing finger at Dean. And everything Carver said reinforces that the writing is supposed to blame Dean. Whereas in Season 5 the writing and everything Kripke said reinforced that Dean was also to blame back then.

 

Now I would be fine for Dean being blamed for Dean`s choices but not Sam`s. Same with that stupid ending scene in the Season 8 Finale  where it wasn`t "my biggest sorrow is how I feel I screwed up" but actually "my biggest screw-up is how sad I feel when YOU decide to act wrongly towards me and go to other friends, the horror, it makes me wanna kill myself". So, in the end, Sam`s problem wasn`t Sam`s actions but Dean not being fine with them. And the scene, just like some in Season 5 beyond a really good combo with Sam and War where I bought genuine regret and self-exploration came across to me as nothing other than a bruised ego.    

[AwesomO4000]

Like stopping the trials. He had no problem with it till he learned of the Gadreel thing. After that, it was somehow another horrible betrayal and falsity from Dean. Whereas a) the two things are actually unrelated and b) if it WAS a horrible betrayal, it either was right away or not at all.

 

I disagree on both points. They were not unrelated, and it wasn't a betrayal - in Sam's mind - until the Gadreel incident, because for Sam, that incident reenforced the first.

 

When Sam complained about not finishing the trails, he made sure to point out that they were no closer to doing anything about the current demon situation than they were when they stopped the trials... therefor in my opinion, it was that Sam was mostly upset because, to him, it now looked like the main - and maybe only - reason Dean stopped him from doing the trails was because Sam would die and that all Dean cared about was preventing that no matter what the consequences to the rest of the world - which was part of Sam's beef to begin with concerning Gadreel. To Sam, all of Dean's "Look at all the information we have. We'll find another way to do this." ended up looking like another lie/manipulation in light of what happened with Gadreel. And whether or not Sam was right about that, looked at in that context, an argument could be made along those lines.

 

So I disagree that the two things were unrelated. And the first (asking Sam to stop the trails) could be in a way seen much less favorably - i.e. more as manipulation - once the Gadreel incident came to light, because then it could be seen more as a pattern of manipulative behavior when at first, it might just seem to be what Dean said that it was - we'll find another way - when after Gadreel, the same statement instead appeared to be more of a lie.

 

Sam's brain works overtime like that, and he has a bit of a complex - which in some ways I don't blame him for. There was another example earlier in the series which shows this: When Sam found out that Castiel was the one who brought him back soulless, he very quickly wondered if Castiel had done it on purpose based on all of the other manipulations that Castiel had been doing to them... So in light of the Gadreel incident, Sam jumping to the conclusion that Dean's "We'll find another way" was just Dean blowing smoke up Sam's butt and manipulating him was not out of character - and also in some ways not that far fetched based on all of the other lying Dean had been doing - which really was Sam's beef even above him actually facilitating Gadreel.

[Aeryn13]

 

They were not unrelated, and it wasn't a betrayal - in Sam's mind - until the Gadreel incident, because for Sam, that incident reenforced the first.

 

I got what Sam was supposed to think and/or convey there, it just made NO sense whatsoever for me. With the trials, he knew everything. Dean made his plea and Sam decided to listen to it. He could give full, informed consent and afterwards, appeared fine with the decision. And I never for a moment thought Dean concealed the "yo, I don`t want you to die from these trials, yo" reason to Sam. That was blindingly obvious. Sam even stopped after hearing that horrible line of complete self-annihilitaton of "there is nothing past or present I woulld put in front of you".

 

Sorry but someone who declares THAT - and he said that to Sam`s face which apparently Sam was fine with - is someone I would expect crap like a facilitated angel-possession from. After all, it would be only consistent for them to behave in this way. What else should it mean than "I literally put your life first before everything."

 

Sure, it`s screwed up but Dean put it out there, didn`t lie or sugarcoat it. So what he did in the hospital later was pretty much following through some more. 

 

Now Gadreel is different insofar as Sam didn`t make a choice about it. He gave some consent, in a way like Dean did with the Mark, saying yes without hearing any fine print. But it wasn`t full and informed constent. So I get that he blames Dean for the act of trickery there.

 

But just because Sam now wants to disown the choice of stopping the trials doesn`t mean, he gets to pawn it off on Dean. It`s still his choice, if he feels bad about it now or not. He can`t claim it as his choice only as long as he is fine with it. IEven if he changed his mind because he thinks Dean did something wrong, it doesn`t change a thing for me.

 

All Dean did was ask in that church, Sam was the special trial-boy, Dean was the completely irrelevant kitchen boy, his power in the trials was less than nil  Sam held the power, Sam exercised his power back then with IMO all the necessary information. If he looks at that information differently now? That is frankly his problem. 

 

It actually reminded me of a few bits of dialogue in Season 1. Dean meets Jess in the Pilot and figures out she isn`t in the know. Sam says that`s the way it`s gonna be and he wants it like that. It is basically his decision. Couple eps later and Sam finds out Dean told his old girlfriend the truth and says accusingly "for a year and a half I lie to my girlfriend and you tell some girl in Ohio".

 

And? So? Even if it was the freaking family rule, Sam had broken away from that to make his own choices. And he did. He was not beholden to family rules. It was his choice not to tell Jess. And he was fine with it when she was alive. That he was no longer fine with it after doesn`t mean he suddenly only did it to follow the family credo and somehow it was enforced on him. It also doesn`t mean somehow Dean telling a girlfriend of his is some betrayal or something. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

And I never for a moment thought Dean concealed the "yo, I don`t want you to die from these trials, yo" reason to Sam. That was blindingly obvious.

 

I agree Sam should've seen that coming - but I argue what was all Dean's "we'll find another way" stuff about then? Why bring that into it? If the above is the case, Dean apparently thought it would manipulate Sam into saying he'd stop doing the trails or he wouldn't even have mentioned it. Just because Sam fell for it, ignored it, or even if Sam chose to just say "Ah ha!" and file it away mentally to use it against Dean later - which I'm not saying he did - Dean put it out there in the first place, and if it was mostly manipulation, Dean shouldn't then be shocked or indignant that Sam is now calling him on that manipulation. For me, an argument of "well, of course I did, but you should've known better," is not a legitimate defense for "you lied to me." If Dean didn't lie and/or manipulate in the first place, then he'd have avoided the fallout later on, but Dean apparently thought he needed the "we'll find another way" argument to get the result he wanted, so he should then have to own said manipulation and the consequences.

 

But just because Sam now wants to disown the choice of stopping the trials doesn`t mean, he gets to pawn it off on Dean. It`s still his choice, if he feels bad about it now or not.

 

I agree. It was Sam's choice to stop the trials. But for me, that wasn't the main part that Sam was upset with Dean about. My interpretation might be wrong, but that's how I see it, especially in light of Sam's (paraphrase) "we're no closer to solving these problems now than we were then." For me that is more the part that bothers Sam in reference to Dean, because now Sam is wondering if Dean stopped him from doing something that might've done good for the world just because Dean wanted Sam to live, maybe had little intention of following through with anything else, and didn't consider how Sam would feel about it if everything went to crap because they didn't finish the trials and made no other progress on the demon front. In other words - my interpretation was that Sam felt betrayed and duped.

 

I actually don't even blame Dean all that much for doing what he did with Gadreel... but the stuff later? For me, that's where the failure came in and the main betrayal. And in my interpretation this is what Sam is most upset about. He's also a bit upset about the Gadreel trickery, but for me it was extremely telling that the first thing that Sam calls Dean on - before anything else - is "You lied to me." It's the same argument he had with Amy - what bothered Sam the most was that Dean lied about it after the fact. In that instance, once Sam heard Dean's explanation for why he lied - Dean was worried about Sam's sanity - Sam understood. That wasn't going to be the case in this situation. Dean's lying was much worse than the allowing Gadreel in to begin with part, because once Dean saved Sam, he could've then at so many points turned the decision over to Sam. Instead he allowed Sam's mind to be repeatedly violated, knowing how that had been for Sam in the past. There was likely the argument in Dean's mind that Sam wouldn't have even had to know and what he didn't know wouldn't hurt him - which goes back to manipulation which again goes back to me to the "We'll find another way."

 

I agree Sam deciding not to do the trail was on him, and yes Sam shouldn't be blaming Dean for that, but the manipulation that goes with it for me: that was what I thought that Sam was most angry about, because he's been angry about the same thing in the past. Is it a little hypocritical considering that he's lied to Dean in the past? Yes, but also I understand it, too, because Sam got a shit ton of flack for his lying - all of season 5 - so I can see why Sam might think "Dean was pissed at me for months because I lied to him, and then he does the same damn thing to me, but he thinks he's justified and would do it again? * What the hell?" And for me that's where the main anger was.

 

* Especially because Sam made it very clear to Dean that if given the chance he would not have repeated the same mistake with Ruby and would've done everything differently.

 

And? So? Even if it was the freaking family rule, Sam had broken away from that to make his own choices. And he did. He was not beholden to family rules. It was his choice not to tell Jess. And he was fine with it when she was alive. That he was no longer fine with it after doesn`t mean he suddenly only did it to follow the family credo and somehow it was enforced on him. It also doesn`t mean somehow Dean telling a girlfriend of his is some betrayal or something.

 

And I see this as a similar kind of thinking as my logic above: Less Sam deciding his not telling Jess was somehow now following family rules and therefore excusing himself * and more "You're freakin' kidding me - I get crap from Dad and Dean for "betraying the family" by leaving and get thrown out of the house for doing so, yet it's okay for Dean to break family rules any time he wants with no guilt whatsoever? How's that fair?"

 

* Because even if that dialogue might have implied Sam was making it sound like he did the "right thing" by not telling Jess thereby deflecting his role, we saw in many episodes that Sam did blame himself for not telling Jess the truth and in fact blamed himself for Jessica's death because of it. Sam openly admitted to this and that he was wrong for doing it. So it was obvious to me that Sam knew his choice was bad and felt guilty about making it. So the indignation makes more sense to me.

[catrox14]

 

I agree Sam should've seen that coming - but I argue what was all Dean's "we'll find another way" stuff about then? Why bring that into it? If the above is the case, Dean apparently thought it would manipulate Sam into saying he'd stop doing the trails or he wouldn't even have mentioned it.

 

I'm a little confused here. I don't understand why it's an emotional manipulation to keep Sam from finishing the trials. It was factual in that they did have enough information and Naomi flat out told Dean that Sam would die if he completes the trial which Dean believed to be true and that he couldn't do it without him. He was giving Sam all the information to make the decision. Sam brought up Dean being friends with Benny and Castiel (an angel) and that is when Dean said, "I would never put anyone in front of you". That was an emotional plea based off Sam's emotional comment about Dean not being able to do it with him.

 

I don't see that as remotely the same thing as the consent issues with Gadreel possessing Sam. Dean shouldn't have done that but the last he knew Sam wanted to live and yes at that point Dean couldn't let Sam die. But I don't see that Dean's pleading with Sam in Sacrifice to stop is nothing but pleading along the facts. The deal with Gadreel was  a bad decision.

 

 

Instead he allowed Sam's mind to be repeatedly violated, knowing how that had been for Sam in the past. There was likely the argument in Dean's mind that Sam wouldn't have even had to know and what he didn't know wouldn't hurt him - which goes back to manipulation which again goes back to me to the "We'll find another way."

 

Dean told Gadreel that he was going to tell Sam what happened but Gadreel kept telling Dean that Gadreel and Sam would both be in danger if Sam ejected him. Dean wasn't doing it just to cover it up because he fully intended to tell Sam later.  He really believed that Gadreel/Ezekiel was telling the truth. As time went on Dean became more and more reluctant to keep the lie going but by then it was too late because Gadreel killed Kevin and the cat was out of the bag. 

 

Sam had no reason to blame Dean for stopping the trials. That was Sam's choice.

Edited August 13, 2014 by catrox14

[Mcolleague]

I agree Sam should've seen that coming - but I argue what was all Dean's "we'll find another way" stuff about then? Why bring that into it? If the above is the case, Dean apparently thought it would manipulate Sam into saying he'd stop doing the trails or he wouldn't even have mentioned it.

 

How is this different from what Sam said to persuade Dean not to say yes to Michael? "Bobby is working on something". "Oh yeah, what?" *silence from Sam* They are both situations where there is no concrete alternative as of yet, but the intention is to look for another way. I don't see how this is manipulation rather than persuasion - Dean did not misrepresent his intention. Sam not liking the consequence that came after does not absolve him of responsibility from making his own decision here. 

 

Also, while I disagree that it was acceptable for Sam to to lie to Jess about who he was, an argument can still be made for the family rules. How do you explain how he also lied to Amelia, when he is WELL aware of the real danger she would be in by being with him? He did not allow her to make an informed choice, and she was put at physical risk without any knowledge on her part. It's stuff like this that puts Sam in a position of coming across kind of hypocritical. Season 8 was a huge clusterfuck lol. 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Mcolleague

[AwesomO4000]

I'm a little confused here. I don't understand why it's an emotional manipulation to keep Sam from finishing the trials.

Sam had no reason to blame Dean for stopping the trials. That was Sam's choice.

As I said I agree with that. I'm saying that's not what I interpreted as Sam being mostly upset about.

 

The thing - I guess emotional manipulation might be too strong; misleading might be better - that I was referring to was Dean making it sound like Dean was all for finding another way to get things done, but then he didn't follow up on it. He seemed to even discourage Sam from pursing things if I'm remembering correctly so that Sam could recover. And I think this was why Sam was complaining later that they actually weren't doing anything to solve any of the problems (even though Dean said that they would). And then when Sam found out about Gadreel, some light bulbs went off and he was thinking "Hey, wait a minute, maybe Dean wasn't telling me the whole truth about that either with the 'We'll find another way to do this' argument? Maybe he didn't really care about that at all, and we stopped the trials for nothing but keeping me alive and Dean never cared about things ever getting fixed?" It's why I equated it with Sam's thinking for a moment that maybe Castiel got him out of the cage soulless on purpose... Sam jumping to conclusions - granted based on what was going on not that illogical conclusions - that he'd been duped by Dean now on multiple occasions.

 

And sure it's a small thing, but added up with other things, it becomes a pattern where Sam thinks... Dean is going to make shitty decisions, manipulate, etc. in order to keep me alive and/or safe and this is not going to be good for our job. How am I going to know if Dean is telling me the truth or of he's going to be telling me what I want to hear or even lying to me for my own good?

 

Dean wasn't doing it just to cover it up because he fully intended to tell Sam later.  He really believed that Gadreel/Ezekiel was telling the truth.

 

This is true, but Dean seemed all too comfortable with Gadreel wiping Sam's memories and even adding lies of his own to explain things. And then Dean let Sam think that there was something wrong with him mentally when Sam was clearly distressed about what was happening to him and thought he was going crazy or something again. (I felt bad for Sam then). At some point Dean really needed to pin Gadreel down on how "healed" Sam was and when he could tell Sam, so Sam could make his own decision if he wanted to have Gadreel healing him or not.

 

Maybe just my opinion, but I thought Dean let things go on way too long and/or he should have told Gadreel from the beginning that once Sam was in a mental state to make up his own mind that he would be told and that Gadreel would  have to accept Sam's decision and that should have been a condition of the original possession: As soon as Sam was able, he was going to get a say... take it or leave it. I sympathized with Dean's plight and as I said, I didn't even blame him for making the original decision (except the lack of conditions part). The lying afterwards though - I sympathized less with him on that. My sympathies were definitely with Sam there.

 

@Mcollegue: How is this different from what Sam said to persuade Dean not to say yes to Michael? "Bobby is working on something". "Oh yeah, what?" *silence from Sam* They are both situations where there is no concrete alternative as of yet, but the intention is to look for another way. I don't see how this is manipulation rather than persuasion - Dean did not misrepresent his intention. Sam not liking the consequence that came after does not absolve him of responsibility from making his own decision here.

First let me say that I am not absolving Sam of the responsibility of making his own decision about stopping the trials - as I said above - I am more explaining why I think Sam was angry. And for me, part of that had to do with the aftermath.

 

As to your question about "Point of No Return," I agree that Sam's argument was the same thing. For me, the difference was in the follow-up. First Sam and Bobby didn't stop looking for a solution, so there was no doubt that they intended on keeping up the search, and second as soon as the immediate threat to Dean sacrificing himself was past, but the situation became complicated, Sam told Dean the truth of what exactly was going on - i.e. that Adam had been taken - and he let Dean make his own choice. Dean at that point very well could have gone ahead and said "yes," because Sam told Dean the situation and trusted him enough to let him go.

 

Though the trial was not the same thing as what happened with Gadreel, my point was that if Dean did not intend to actually make progress on the demon situation, and in some ways he was dragging his feet a bit, then he wasn't following through. And then when he didn't give Sam a choice in the Gadreel situation, that for me - and likely for Sam - cast doubt on what came before as well. For the situations to have been comparable, Dean would have had to tell the truth about Gadreel and/or more quickly worked on a real solution  - going after Abaddon without a plan in the second episode just to scare her and let her get away didn't really count as doing too much in the long term my opinion.

 

And maybe I am being too hard on Dean, but I think it's because I've been seeing a pattern there, and he doesn't seem to be learning from it.

 

Season 8 was a huge clusterfuck lol.

 

No argument from me here. (I'm less LOLing though and more in the area of pissed off - heh) I hated what Carver did with Sam in that season. I didn't appreciate him having Sam consider having Crowley do something to help Dean after he said that he wouldn't either, and I'm kind of afraid of what's coming up next season.

Edited August 13, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

This is true, but Dean seemed all too comfortable with Gadreel wiping Sam's memories and even adding lies of his own to explain things. And then Dean let Sam think that there was something wrong with him mentally when Sam was clearly distressed about what was happening to him and thought he was going crazy or something again. (I felt bad for Sam then). At some point Dean really needed to pin Gadreel down on how "healed" Sam was and when he could tell Sam, so Sam could make his own decision if he wanted to have Gadreel healing him or not.

 

There were several times when Dean wanted it to be over but Gadreel always convinced him via deception, coercion or outright threat that Sam was in danger if Gadreel left Sam's body.  He even convinced Dean that Cas( his best friend) could not stay. And I strongly disagree that Dean was in the least bit comfortable much less happy with his choices. I thought he was visibly distressed every time something happened that he couldn't tell Sam the truth because Gadreel was lying to him. The moment he learned from Cas that Ezekiel was dead, he rushed to tell Sam everything but it was too late.  So yeah I don't think Dean liked what he did but he couldn't figure his way out of it. :(

Edited August 13, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

@catrox14 Maybe I was unfairly thinking of the time when Dean gave the explanation for the demons being killed when Sam didn't remember, and he kind of made it into a big joke.

 

And actually I didn't like Dean caving in to kicking Castiel out either. Dean didn't trust Castiel enough. He should have maybe told Castiel  the situation and gotten his advice on the situation early on - then he would have learned early on about Ezekiel, but instead he went along with kicking Cas out. He could have at least asked Cas about the feasibility of angel healing - how long it would take, what would be involved, etc. And that in a way came across as a little casual as well - Dean had a research source right there, but he didn't use it and just trusted "Ezekiel," so it came across to me as not "putting the gift horse under the microscope" as Dean likes to say, but that's no way to take a chance either when things seem fishy - and for me, kicking Castiel out seemed really fishy.

 

It's all part of Dean either not taking the chance to trust others with his choices (or thinking his choices don't need examining) And granted he has been burned by his loved ones, but eventually - and it turned out to be sooner rather than later - it bit him in the ass.

 

I guess maybe I wanted Dean to put some trust in Sam to make his own decision despite the consequences - maybe put some faith in him like Sam did for Dean in "Point of No Return." And because he didn't - and who knows, maybe Sam would have agreed, but then been able to keep more tabs on Gadreel - things went so horribly wrong.

[catrox14]

At that point with the demons, Sam was still too weak to survive. The entire point of Gadreel possessing Sam was for him to live but Dean worried that Sam would eject Ezekiel/Gadreel which would result in Sam dying anyway. So to that degree Dean was complicit but not because IMO he wanted to avoid the issue because Sam would be mad at him but because he was afraid Sam would die.

[trxr4kids]

 

It's all part of Dean either not taking the chance to trust others with his choices (or thinking his choices don't need examining)

I'm sorry Awesome, I usually get what you mean but I'm just not here. I haven't seen Dean or Sam have any real choices, other than a rock or a hard place, since around season 2 or 3. Who was Dean supposed to consult about selling his soul? Bobby? Cause he was real helpful, wasn't he? He was equally helpful to Sam once Dean was dead(read not at all).

 

Or did you mean the whole Gadreel thing? Cause I have to say he never should've done that, although we could see it coming a mile away. My anger at the whole Gadreel thing comes from that he never should've trusted Cas' word about an angel in the first place. Hello, he let your brother out of the panic room, he broke his wall. It seems OOC to me for Dean to trust him with Sam's well being after those things after that whole ridiculous you're the sun, the moon and stars speech.

 

(Hold on, hold on! You seriously think that? Because none of it -- none of it -- is true. Listen, man, I know we've had our disagreements, okay? Hell, I know I've said some junk that set you back on your heels. But, Sammy...come on. I killed Benny to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever!)

 

ETA I'm sorry, I realized I went off on a tangent about the Cas issue and didn't clarify my question. Where do you think Dean had a chance to trust others with his choices and didn't? Also where do you think he didn't think the choices he made were crap? Keep in mind, season 7 is a blur for me, I hated the lack of the Impala and the music.

Edited August 13, 2014 by trxr4kids

[AwesomO4000]

At that point with the demons, Sam was still too weak to survive. The entire point of Gadreel possessing Sam was for him to live but Dean worried that Sam would eject Ezekiel/Gadreel which would result in Sam dying anyway. So to that degree Dean was complicit but not because IMO he wanted to avoid the issue because Sam would be mad at him but because he was afraid Sam would die.

 

Oh I agree, and I definitely felt badly for Dean concerning that, but I still, maybe unrealistically, wanted Dean to trust Sam with the choice and take that leap of faith that maybe Sam would understand. Yes, it was risky, but so was what Sam did in "Point of No Return." Sometimes you just have to have faith in someone that they'll listen and understand.

 

Dean also didn't have to be afraid that Sam would die if he told Castiel * or even Kevin, so I'm not sure what his reasoning for not sharing that information with Castiel was, especially if anyone would know something about angel healing - considering presumably Castiel was the one who put Dean back together - it would be him.

 

* Well as long as he threatened Castiel with holy oil frying if he blabbed to Sam, since Cas can be a little naive when Sam gives him the puppy eyes of "I'm just a little fuzzy on the details, could you fill me in?"

 

@trxr4kids - I haven't seen Dean or Sam have any real choices, other than a rock or a hard place, since around season 2 or 3. Who was Dean supposed to consult about selling his soul? Bobby? Cause he was real helpful, wasn't he? He was equally helpful to Sam once Dean was dead(read not at all).

 

Yes, he didn't have anyone really to consult about that - although Bobby was more helpful at that point than later, but I was more talking about other decisions/choices of Dean's like not telling Sam earlier about what John said, lying to Sam at first about hell, not telling Sam the truth about "The End," deciding on his own to say yes to Michael and then lying about it, running off to do whatever stupid thing he did (I dislike the episode so I don't remember) that lead him to getting turned into an old man in "The Curious Case...", not telling Sam the truth about Sam's soul and the wall, having Castiel wipe Lisa and Ben's memories, lying about killing Amy, etc.

 

Now I am not saying Sam has never done any of this type of thing, because he obviously has. I just don't remember him doing it as often after he learned his lesson in season 4 - except season 8 - which I hate that Carver changed that about Sam, because for me there was a definite decrease for Sam starting in season 5 and Sam was much more straightforward about things with Dean, so I saw season 8 as a character regression in that area. For example, Sam did have a big slip in season 7 where he didn't tell Dean about his condition - mostly because he didn't want to hurt Dean further - but once Dean showed him how that was dangerous, Sam kept Dean pretty informed of any changes in his condition.

 

But yes, for me the Gadreel situation does count, because Dean should know by now that that kind of lying comes to no good. I actually don't blame him for trusting Cas to some degree - although I did agree with Sam in the season 8 finale concerning Dean thinking Sam needed the hand-holding over Cas, because yeah - but Castiel is kind of sneaky in that regard. Cas never told anyone about letting Sam out of the panic room - interesting that in "I Believe the Children..." Cas emphasized Sam making the wrong decision and conveniently forget about his own wrong decision. It was also interesting that Cas talked about how he was there when Samandriel died - um no Cas you killed Samandriel. But what was maybe worse... Dean trusted "Ezekiel," because yup it's a good idea to trust a random angle that shows up to possess your brother and encourages you to use deception to do it. Heck Dean could have trusted Kevin and told him. Kevin likely would've been able to find out something concerning the situation. Kevin would have been more trustworthy than "Ezekiel" and could've helped keep an eye on the situation - and warned Dean sooner that "Sam" was sneaking out at night - not typical Sam behavior at that time. So for me Dean's impulsiveness and reluctance to trust people with his choices - oh and the decision to take on the mark of Cain without consulting someone... again if not Sam then Castiel... also counts here - has finally really bitten him in the ass. Dean saw how badly it went for Sam - he ended up raising Lucifer - and Castiel - who ended up turning into Godstiel and releasing the Leviathans, and then the disaster with Metatron, but he still somehow thought that secrecy/lying was the way to go even when he had options (like consulting with Cas or Kevin)... *sigh*

Edited August 13, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[trxr4kids]

 

I was more talking about other decisions/choices of Dean's like not telling Sam earlier about what John said, lying to Sam at first about hell, not telling Sam the truth about "The End," deciding on his own to say yes to Michael and then lying about it, running off to do whatever stupid thing he did (I dislike the episode so I don't remember) that lead him to getting turned into an old man in "The Curious Case...", not telling Sam the truth about Sam's soul and the wall, having Castiel wipe Lisa and Ben's memories, lying about killing Amy, etc.

Okay, yeah I get what you mean now, thanks. In some ways though I can (retroactively) get why Dean didn't tell Sam the truth in the case of John's lame promise because when he finally did, Sam was all, promise you'll kill me if I go darkside, after he had angsted about his dad making him promise the same thing. I don't want to sound like a Sam basher but when Dean finally told Sam about hell, it was thrown in his face and he was told he was weak. As far as The End goes I thought Dean went back to Sam because like he said, they keep each other human and telling Sam what he had seen at that point would have IMO only further crushed an already fragile Sam. The Curious Case thing I thought was Bobby but I don't recall either.

The Lisa and Ben thing has never made sense to me, so they don't know Dean but Crowley was on their front lawn and knows them, so how does that work? As for Amy, I don't really remember the ep only the commentary so I can't really judge.

 

ETA you're right he could have talked to Kevin but it probably would've seemed like piling on to his burdens since they(Dean) didn't even look for his mom. I stand by Cas not being someone Dean would trust with Sam's well being.

Edited August 13, 2014 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

I don't think Sam has the high road on lying even after s4.

 

I think Dean had valid reasons for not telling Sam what John said.  I mean Dean was already carrying a huge burden with that to begin with. Then Sam would probably have been all okay "Kill me".  So that one doesn't bother me that much. 

 

I don't think Dean told Sam about THE END because I'm not sure 100% that Dean believed it would happen. And it was really about Dean warring with himself and the decision he had to make. IMO if Dean had told Sam about Samifer, Sam would have probably said yes sooner if it's been foretold.

 

Sam lied about being alive for an entire year. And I don't put that lie under "Soulless Sam" get out of jail free card.  He made a conscious choice to let Dean think he was still in Hell. I honestly think Souled Sam would have made that same choice especially with Bobby supporting that lie. 

 

I guess my point is that they both lie to each other for whatever reasons; convenience, protecting the other one, lie because it's easier than the truth sometimes or so they think.  

 

IIRC, Dean didn't tell Cas about Gadreel because Cas was human and couldn't have helped anyway. But mostly I think that was a contrivance to put distance between Dean and Cas.

[AwesomO4000]

@catrox14 - I honestly think Souled Sam would have made that same choice especially with Bobby supporting that lie.

 

I agree with much of what you said above, but this I definitely do not agree with. Sam would know that Dean would be hurting thinking that he was still in hell, because Sam went through the same thing - twice, counting his "Mystery Spot" stint, and Sam knows what that did to him both times. I don't think I could believe that real Sam would want that for Dean. Soulless Sam didn't give a crap. For me, there's a big difference between the two.

 

IIRC, Dean didn't tell Cas about Gadreel because Cas was human and couldn't have helped anyway. But mostly I think that was a contrivance to put distance between Dean and Cas.

 

I was mostly thinking of information. Cas still could've been helpful in that regard. It also doesn't explain Kevin - who was in the bunker. I agree about the contrivance, though, but I think the contrivance was most likely to isolate Sam and Dean - emotionally at least. I'm mostly sorry that both Sam and Dean got thrown under the bus character-wise - Sam for a second time - to accomplish it.

 

I don't think Sam has the high road on lying even after s4.

 

I wouldn't say the moral high ground, but I think overall Sam's more careful about lying - in that he considers the consequences, because it ended so badly for him. I think we Dean, he sometimes gets good results though or at least didnn't have the really negative results that Sam and Castiel had - yet. He didn't get so lucky this past season and it kind of blew up in his face really badly - worse than it ever had before.

 

@trxr4kids - I don't want to sound like a Sam basher but when Dean finally told Sam about hell, it was thrown in his face and he was told he was weak.

 

Not your fault, trxr4kids. It's perfectly understandable. I thought there was quite a bit of unnecessary Sam character assassination in season 4 - I mean wasn't his drinking demon blood, sleeping with a demon, lying to Dean, not helping Dean, killing the nurse, and raising Lucifer enough? Apparently not, let's make Sam a really crappy brother too. It's one of the reasons I generally don't enjoy the season as a whole. For me, there was just a lot of unnecessary "too much" all around.

 

As far as The End goes I thought Dean went back to Sam because like he said, they keep each other human and telling Sam what he had seen at that point would have IMO only further crushed an already fragile Sam.

 

I thought it would have helped Sam quite a bit if Dean had told him the truth - and I'll explain in a moment - but I guess Dean decided it was information he didn't trust Sam to be able to handle, so he made the decision not to share. The problem was it put Sam at a disadvantage, in my opinion. Here Sam was thinking that Dean came back of his own accord, because Dean was ready and believed the "it keeps us human" thing, but it became obvious that Dean wasn't ready, and it came out in very unhelpful ways, with Sam having no idea where it was coming from.

 

As we saw later for a while at least (until Carver got a hold of him anyway), Sam tended to be a fast forgiver, especially if there was a job to be done - Castiel was a good example, and even Dean who Sam forgave for making the deal after what 1 or 2 episodes? So Sam's thinking good, clean slate, working together to fix this... and that's not what's happening at all. Dean's making snide comments, even when Sam is trying to do what he needs to do to get Dean's trust. In my opinion, if Dean had been honest from the start, saying something like "Look Sam, I'm not really ready for this, but there's a chance things will turn out really badly if we don't work together" and then maybe tell Sam what he saw with "Maybe that's not going to happen, and Zach was messing with me, but I can't take that chance. Just understand that you're gonna have to give me time, cuz I'm still angry about everything that happened." At least Sam would know where he stood and why his brother was looking at him like he was gonna screw up the first chance he got.

 

I got the impression that Sam enjoyed being with and hunting with Dean more than vica versa in season 5, and that was partly because Dean was trying to keep up a charade he never should have gotten himself into in the first place if he'd communicated honestly about things to being with - Sam even asked Dean why he changed his mind and left the door wide open for Dean to be honest about it, and instead Dean chose to stuff things down as usual until they came out in unhealthy ways. So, for me, it was kind of like Dean didn't tell Sam the whole truth and then held it against him for not knowing it.

 

IMO if Dean had told Sam about Samifer, Sam would have probably said yes sooner if it's been foretold.

 

I think it would've made Sam all the more determined not to. Their plan after all was to not go with what the angels wanted (screw destiny) no matter what. Why would Sam want to have the future Dean saw come true for sure by saying yes?

[DittyDotDot]

They are all lying liars that lie and massive hypocrites whenever the plot so dictates, IMO, all of them. For every example one drags out of how Sam is a little shit, there are just as many to illustrate the same thing about Dean. I really can't see how any character, except maybe Jodi, has the moral high ground on this show. Even Crowley has been more honest than either Sam or Dean, for the most part. He may not tell them everything, but he doesn't outright lie to their faces either--not that it gives him the moral high ground or anything, though. (And, no, I'm not saying that I think Crowley is a good friend or ally, either.)

 

Personally, I'm tired of the lying and subterfuge between the boys, but I don't see how one is worse or has done it more or has more call to be more hurt than the other. I wouldn't be surprised if there is another round of secrets and lies this season so everyone should get out their scorecards and sharpen their pencils now in anticipation, I guess.

[Aeryn13]

 

As we saw later for a while at least (until Carver got a hold of him anyway), Sam tended to be a fast forgiver, especially if there was a job to be done

 

I don`t really agree. I mean, at first it appears that way, that he moved on rather quickly from something or changed his mind into agreeing with something he previously did not but then, a couple of episodes later or even a Season later during an argument he comes out with pretty much the previous accusations. So either he changed his mind again quickly into UN-forgiveness or he just inititally filed the issue away for further use. 

 

However, I will say that with Cas it doesn`t really happen much because Sam in general seems, I don`t know, weirdly detached from him? That is, he will stick up for him and even genuinely count him as a friend at times but I never got the feeling that Cas` betrayals or actions are things he takes personally. Even personal actions against him like breaking of the wall. There is little anger or hurt there that could be followed by easy forgiveness. Instead it`s almost like he doesn`t even ponder the question of forgiveness because he didn`t much feel personally hurt by it or invested in it in the first place.

 

They interacted a lot last year, during the second half and nevertheless it feels like they simply existed next to each other. And it wasn`t even about focusing on Dean because they didn`t pow-wow about his condition or the MOC or anything at length. I don`t think it`s like that with say Sam and Garth or Charlie or Jody or heck, even Crowley. .    

[catrox14]

 

don't think I could believe that real Sam would want that for Dean.

 

It was  regular!Sam's, not soulless!Sam's dying wish that Dean promise to go live an apple pie life with Lisa and Ben.  If not for that promise to regular!Sam, Dean would have been saving people and hunting God (oh, how I lament that missed opportunity, BOO SHOW BOO!). Regular!Sam knows full well Dean would give up that apple pie life in a New York minute to resume saving people and hunting things with Sam, so IMO he would have stayed away as long as he could. And Bobby would have supported that be it Soulless Sam or regular!Sam because they both decided that they knew better than Dean what would make Dean happy and how Dean should live his life.

Edited August 13, 2014 by catrox14

[shang yiet]

Sam was never Sue-pimped but then again, you wouldn't have minded at all if it was Dean so.....

 

The writing failed for ChosenOne!Arthur. He never did become the Arthur of the legend unless it was all offscreen. At least Merlin got to be right almost every episode unlike Sam the screw-up.

 

I hated that speech in The Purge myself because it turned the spotlight once again on Dean's motivations and feelings which are not the point in that possession story. Same with that other speech in the S8 finale which became more about Dean's opinion of Sam. Which again is not the point. I wanted both speeches to be about how Sam felt about himself, Just leave Dean out of the equation. But I think the writers wanted to point out how important Dean's opinion is to Sam. It's touching.

 

I am tired of Sam being a fast forgiver for whatever reason. Let him take things personally like Dean, very personally.

 

Regular!Sam knows full well Dean would give up that apple pie life in a New York minute to resume saving people and hunting things

 

 

Then why did Dean meet up with Lisa when he though he was going to die in S3? Why did Dean dream of having a picnic with Lisa? That's what made Sam realize Dean wanted normality too. Why didn't Dean just say,' Thanks but I don't love Lisa. Don't worry, I'll be fine. I'll be with Bobby."

[Demented Daisy]

They are all lying liars that lie and massive hypocrites whenever the plot so dictates, IMO, all of them. For every example one drags out of how Sam is a little shit, there are just as many to illustrate the same thing about Dean. I really can't see how any character, except maybe Jodi, has the moral high ground on this show. Even Crowley has been more honest than either Sam or Dean, for the most part. He may not tell them everything, but he doesn't outright lie to their faces either--not that it gives him the moral high ground or anything, though. (And, no, I'm not saying that I think Crowley is a good friend or ally, either.)

Personally, I'm tired of the lying and subterfuge between the boys, but I don't see how one is worse or has done it more or has more call to be more hurt than the other. I wouldn't be surprised if there is another round of secrets and lies this season so everyone should get out their scorecards and sharpen their pencils now in anticipation, I guess.

 

 

Amen, @DittyDotDot!  If I could like this 1000X, I would.  Every season is some new version of Sam/Dean lied/is hiding something.  It's old.  It's boring.  Most of all, it's lazy.  

 

"But there's no conflict on the show if Sam and Dean aren't at odds!"  Bullshit.  They are constantly battling monsters, ghosts, angels, demons, whatever.  Look at season 1.  The conflict was whether to follow John's orders.  No lying, no obfuscation.  Sam and Dean knew what the other wanted -- but it didn't damage their relationship.  It's one of the reasons that it's one of the best seasons.

 

But what's done is done.  I don't understand the purpose of rehashing old hurts, old wounds, old lies, old mistakes.  Sam hurt Dean, Dean hurt Sam.  Sam lied, Dean lied.

 

C'mon, show.  Let it go.

[Aeryn13]

 

Sam was never Sue-pimped

That`s a difference in opinion. You felt he wasn`t, I felt like I drowned in it. As for doing it with Dean, sure, it`s easier to take if it`s your fave but it happening too much guarantees they are not my fave for much longer. I didn`t feel about Sam for the first two to four years the way I do now either. So I would have prefered not to be happening at all or happening equally.

 

 

The writing failed for ChosenOne!Arthur.

 I agree but the construct was obviously ChosenOneMerlin. As soon as the writers likened them to Jeeves and Wooster, it was clear why the writing failed across the board. No show should take that as its template, though.

 

 

I wanted both speeches to be about how Sam felt about himself, Just leave Dean out of the equation. But I think the writers wanted to point out how important Dean's opinion is to Sam. It's touching.

I thought the church speech WAS about how Sam felt, namely angry and sad on how he perceived Dean felt. The second was basically how he felt about Dean.

 

That`s always been a dichotomy for Sam, he gets "truth-spelled" or finally angry enough to tell Dean how he really sees him which seems to be a weak selfish coward with delusions of goodness yet keels over at the mere thought that someone so low could think badly of him. What he wants is feeling an amount of validation he can`t give either. Which is why I can`t really sympathize with the problem.

 

I could with being angry about the possession but that wasn`t the angle the writers tackled.     

[catrox14]

 

Then why did Dean meet up with Lisa when he though he was going to die in S3? Why did Dean dream of having a picnic with Lisa? That's what made Sam realize Dean wanted normality too. Why didn't Dean just say,' Thanks but I don't love Lisa. Don't worry, I'll be fine. I'll be with Bobby."

 

Don't even start me on the stupidity of the Dean and Lisa contrivance from Hell. I hated that entire thing because it was built off nothing. Sure, show, Dean looks up a chick (not named Cassie BTW which is an entire train car on the Bittercake Express (tm me) after 8 fucking years because she was hot and bendy and OH LOOK she has a son that seems a lot like Dean but really isn't Dean's son. Oh look, now he sees her in a dream that we don't know for sure he had more than the one time. And then two freaking years later, without ever mentioning either Lisa or Ben either directly or obliquely references. Dean just decides to show up at her NEW house and tell her the world is ending but he could imagine a life with her? RIGHHT. I"m surprised I'm not blind with how far back my eyes rolled.

 

IMO that was always about Dean's fantasy of a normal life but what he really wanted was HIS original family back in tact.  So I never for one minute bought any thing they were trying to sell me on that stupid thing.  So yeah, I'm not defending that contrivance in the least.

 

To your points, Dean flat out told Lisa that it wasn't his life in s3, then he told her in s5 that well if he could have that life he pictured it with her but that didn't mean he was going to try and have that life. I can't remember a conversation between Sam and Dean wherein Sam's takeaway is that Dean really truly wanted to live that life with Lisa. IMO that was not made clear enough for this viewer. Even if we accept that Dean and Sam have that conversation it's still based on a promise. 

F

rom Swan Song:

DEAN: You can't ask me to do this.

SAM: I'm sorry, Dean. You have to.

DEAN: So then what am I supposed to do?

SAM: You go find Lisa. You pray to god she's dumb enough to take you in, and you -- you have barbecues and go to football games. You go live some normal, apple-pie life, Dean. Promise me.

 

Then Chuck confirms it:

 

CHUCK (VOICEOVER): This is the last Dean and Bobby will see of each other for a very long time. [DEAN and BOBBY hug before DEAN drives away.] And, for the record, at this point next week, Bobby will be hunting a rugaru outside of Dayton. But not Dean. Dean didn't want Cas to save him. Every part of him, every fiber he's got, wants to die, or find a way to bring Sam back. But he isn't gonna do either. Because he made a promise.

 

 

It was pretty clear in 6.1 that Dean wasn't "happy" with his life. He was going through the motions, trying to live that life. I think it was trying to make a fantasy work and to keep his promise to Sam. But if regular!Sam had shown up on his doorstep, it would be a no brainer for Dean to go with Sam. He would have angst about it, but he would have done it. Even in  6.1 Dean is talking to Sam and Bobby ( who is complicit in Sam's lie to Dean)

 

Dean: That woman and that kid -- I went to them because you asked me to.

Bobby: Good.

Dean: Good for who? I showed up on their doorstep half out of my head with grief. God knows why they even let me in. I drank too much. I had nightmares. I looked everywhere. I collected hundreds of books, trying to find anything to bust you out.

Sam: You promised you'd leave it alone.

Dean: Of course I didn't leave it alone! Sue me! A damn year? You couldn't put me out of my misery

 

 

 

IMO, regular Sam would have done the same thing he would just have felt bad about it, whereas soulless!Sam just doesn't feel anything about it.

[Aeryn13]

 

Sure, show, Dean looks up a chick (not named Cassie BTW which is an entire train car on the Bittercake Express (tm me)

 

That actually made sense to me because I would have found it flat-out insane for him to seek out Cassie. As she was established she dumped him because she thought he was crazy-cakes when he first told her the truth. Apparently not SO much crazy.cakes that years later when she had strange goings-on in her own life, she didn`t give it a shot to call him for "expertise".

 

On that case they hooked up again and in the end she was like "eh, no, that really leads nowhere". Now I found her to be annoyingly hot and cold over the course of the episode but in the end she was crystal clear that this was the finish line. She would not wait for him (which, to be clear, she was under no obiigation to), she would not pine for him, she would not think of him and she would basically not regret it. She appeared to have already completely moved on. At the end of episode 13? in Season 1.

 

I could even believe if Dean had shown up at her doorstep years later, she might not have known who he even WAS. Like Sarah who apparently had gotten married and had a baby as we met her again in Season 8, I could see something similar for Cassie. Neither woman waited arounf for a Winchester. 

 

And I believe Dean realized this about Cassie in the end. The chapter was closed so seeking her out under any conditions would have made no sense. Seeking out Lisa back in Season 3 who he`d only known as a fun hook-up and who presumably he had left things with amicably and with no finality either way (other than both parties probably thinking they`d never meet again) made more sense to me. 

[catrox14]

Cassie is the least of my problems with that issue. Taking her out of it altogether, they built an entire contrived relationship off ONE hookup and one dream. Nothing else to support the idea that Dean had been pining away for all of this. Nothing explaining why Lisa would stay involved. Sure Dean's hot and saved her kids' life but really...come on.  Bleh. I could write a tome on all that is wrong with Lisa and Dean and Ben solely from a narrative and storytelling standpoint.

 

My point though is that Sam inferred more than Dean implied about a life out of hunting and then extracted an emotional promise out of Dean. I don't think Sam soulless or not would go back, on his assumption about what would make Dean happy.  That's all. 

[AwesomO4000]

It was  regular!Sam's, not soulless!Sam's dying wish that Dean promise to go live an apple pie life with Lisa and Ben.  If not for that promise to regular!Sam, Dean would have been saving people and hunting God (oh, how I lament that missed opportunity, BOO SHOW BOO!). Regular!Sam knows full well Dean would give up that apple pie life in a New York minute to resume saving people and hunting things with Sam, so IMO he would have stayed away as long as he could. And Bobby would have supported that be it Soulless Sam or regular!Sam because they both decided that they knew better than Dean what would make Dean happy and how Dean should live his life.

 

I thought the same thing about Sam in season 8 - total missed opportunity to have Sam hunting on his own or at least looking for Kevin and Dean. Because from what I saw on the show, Sam had not shown much interest in a "regular life" for at least as long as Dean had, maybe longer - like since season 2 with one "slip" in season 4 that wasn't even that well explained/developed. Other than that - nada and usually the opposite. In season 7, Sam said in his own way that hunting was what made him feel most "normal." At the end of season 7, when I imagined what was going to happen the next season, what actually did happen didn't even make my list. It wouldn't have made my list if I imagined 100 scenarios - that's how ridiculous and out of character I thought it was.

 

As for Dean, I'm not so sure that he would've been hunting - for me that was more Sam's thing to fall back on (reference: "Mystery Spot," Soulless Sam, and to an extent, season 7). As Dean said way back in season one?, he could hunt alone, but he didn't want to. I think hunting would've just reminded him too much of Sam. As Chuck said in the passage you quoted, if not for the promise, every fiber of Dean "wanted to die or find a way to bring Sam back." My guess is that without the promise, Dean would either have been dead - as Sam would've been had Ruby not intervened in season 4  - have driven himself insane, or somehow found a way to make some sort of deal for something - wouldn't Crowley have loved that one. I'm pretty sure he could've found an easy way to manipulate Dean.

 

As for Sam deciding he knew better for Dean, Dean had been talking about getting out of hunting and how much he was beaten down with the hunting life with Sam since season 2 (he was ready to call it quits in "Croatoan"), but he always felt the obligation to do it. In the past, we'd often seen Dean being happy in other types of non-hunting life - like in "Hollywood Babylon" where he was easily happy being a PA and really seemed to enjoy it. Despite the problems, Dean was also happy in his dream world and was tempted to stay, again being drawn out by the obligation he felt towards saving people. Sam's the one who didn't generally fit anywhere else and used hunting as a way out of that. Sam was mainly giving Dean the opportunity to let it go.

 

Also nothing in the promise Sam had Dean make said that Dean had to continue in that vein of a normal life if it didn't work. And he actually could have combined the two. As we saw in season 6, it was Sam and his relationship with Dean that Lisa had a problem with. If Sam was out of the equation, Dean likely could've mixed both for at least a time.

 

I can't remember a conversation between Sam and Dean wherein Sam's takeaway is that Dean really truly wanted to live that life with Lisa. IMO that was not made clear enough for this viewer.

 

This is true, but Sam knew enough to know that Dean went to visit Lisa. He knew the "stops" on the memory lane train and that Lisa was one of them.

 

But if regular!Sam had shown up on his doorstep, it would be a no brainer for Dean to go with Sam. He would have angst about it, but he would have done it.

 

IMO, regular Sam would have done the same thing he would just have felt bad about it,

 

I'm not so sure either of them would have gone hunting right away. For one, Sam would've been messed up for a while, because not long in hell aside, he would still have been there for a bit before Castiel got him, and that more than anything I could see Sam staying away for a while because of until he got his head together. Also, as far as they knew, the apocalypse had been averted and things were quiet for a while. I could see both deciding they needed a break. But Sam staying away for that long and letting Dean think he was still in hell? I'm still having a hard time picturing it even if Bobby tried to convince him otherwise.

[Amerilla]

I thought the same thing about Sam in season 8 - total missed opportunity to have Sam hunting on his own or at least looking for Kevin and Dean. Because from what I saw on the show, Sam had not shown much interest in a "regular life" for at least as long as Dean had, maybe longer - like since season 2 with one "slip" in season 4 that wasn't even that well explained/developed.

 

 

I've just started S8, and along those lines: am I going to start liking Amelia at some point? Because at the 8x07 mark, I pretty much let out a screech of pain every time Sam flashes back. Much louder than my Lisa & Ben Screech of Pain.

[AwesomO4000]

I've just started S8, and along those lines: am I going to start liking Amelia at some point? Because at the 8x07 mark, I pretty much let out a screech of pain every time Sam flashes back. Much louder than my Lisa & Ben Screech of Pain.

@Amerilla - Hopefully someone else might chime in with a different and more hopeful opinion, but that's not gonna be me. To answer your question, in my opinion, a big fat NO. And I like Sam as a character a lot (despite their attempt to ruin him for me here - and they tried really hard this season, IMO), but for me the Amelia plotline just made no sense as to why anyone thought it was a good idea, and in my opinion, it was not developed with any direction as to show why Sam ended up in that relationship to begin with or gave much insight into his current headspace. In addition, for me, the flashbacks  - and in no helpful order either - were just a bad vehicle to choose to do that. For me it was easily the worst plotline they've had on the show.

 

Oh and, sadly, based on where you are now, I'm afraid it's just going to get worse, both with Amelia *cue soap opera music* and Sam's character portrayal. I feel sorry for you. The good news: Sam's storyline in the second half of the season gets better - thank goodness. The potentially bad news? General consensus is that Dean's gets worse... sadly I was mostly just so relieved at the change in Sam's storyline, I was ready to accept almost anything by that point to put me out of my misery.

 

Wow that was really gloom and doom. Hopefully someone will have a better opinion.

[DittyDotDot]

@Amerilla, the short answer is probably not. It wasn't their best choice of storyline and the flashbacks didn't do much to help. But, on the bright side, she will be done and forgotten soon. I can't remember which one is her last, 8.09 or 8.10, but once it's done, she never comes back. Hope that helps. I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of the season for fear I will discourage you from sticking it out with the rest of us lunatics that can't seem to stop watching this show no matter how bad it gets. I like having more lunatics in this asylum, more crazy is always preferred. ;)

Edited August 13, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I will say that I just rolled my eyes at the Amelia thing as much as I did the Lisa/Ben thing. And no, I'm not one of those viewers that doesn't want the boys to have romantic relationships.I want them to have relationships with good female characters (sorry but I didn't think Lisa and Amelia were well drawn female characters).

 

I ship Dean and Jamie from Monster Movie. I would love to see her back because she was pretty great. I could buy them together. Currently, I quietly ship Dean with someone from s9 and no it's not Castiel(okay it's always Castiel on some level but I've come around to thinking that will never happen). I've given up on Cassie ever showing her face again :

 

The problem with Amelia is that I can find no compelling chemistry between her and Sam (nor did I with Dean and Lisa). Neither relationship worked for me for many reasons. 

 

Sidebar:  Should we have a relationships thread for these discussions?

 

Relationships in Supernatural : "Sleep with a Winchester and Die? "

Edited August 13, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

 I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of the season for fear I will discourage you from sticking it out with the rest of us lunatics that can't seem to stop watching this show no matter how bad it gets. I like having more lunatics in this asylum, more crazy is always preferred. ;)

 

@Amerilla - Yes, I don't want to discourage you from continuing here, because I actually thought that the second half of season 8 was quite a bit better than the first half. And even though that isn't necessarily a common opinion, you might agree, too. It has my definite favorite episode of the season in it - so still to come for you - and most of my top 5 from that season.

 

My "I feel sorry for you" is mostly for a couple of what I would consider ugly episodes before you get there, and one episode (sadly in the second half), that I would not want anyone to have to watch at all (just thinking of it makes my skin crawl - ugh). Others might agree with me that you may want to sip that particular one.

[catrox14]

@Amerilla, s8 has two of my favorite episodes in the entire series and certainly one of my favorite premieres. So I'm just giving opinion on the Amelia arc, but there is absolutely some really great stuff at the beginning of s8 that I adore. So by all means don't let my negative opinion of Samelia keep you from watching it.

[Amerilla]

Ok, I think I'm over the hump. Sam didn't show up in the hotel room, Dean dumped Benny, and the boys just finished LARP-ping with Charlie.

[DittyDotDot]

You're good, Amelia's only mentioned slightly in one other episode. No more flashbacks and such.

[Amerilla]

I mean, I got the idea they were going for - Benny is the uncomplicated brother-figure Dean craves from Sam, Amelia (at least as first introduced) combined Dean's sarcasm and repression with boobies, and in the end, neither relationship can withstand the orbital pull of the Dysfunctional Duo back towards each other. But where Benny and Dean were actually sort of an interesting pair-up (and since I have no shame when it comes to spoiling myself, I know he has at least one more chapter to play out), Samelia, as catrox14 rightly notes, had no discernable chemistry.

[shang yiet]

I thought the church speech WAS about how Sam felt, namely angry and sad on how he perceived Dean felt. The second was basically how he felt about Dean.

 

That`s always been a dichotomy for Sam, he gets "truth-spelled" or finally angry enough to tell Dean how he really sees him which seems to be a weak selfish coward with delusions of goodness yet keels over at the mere thought that someone so low could think badly of him. What he wants is feeling an amount of validation

 

 

Which just proves my point they should just have left Dean out of the equation. I'm not interested in how Dean perceives Sam or vice versa. i disagree that Sam feels that way about Dean.

 

I, on the hand, felt like I was drowning in Dean's angst. Earlier in the series, I cared how Dean felt but now, I don't care anymore.

[Aeryn13]

 

m not interested in how Dean perceives Sam or vice versa.

I`m not either. For Dean, I`ve long since been annoyed that they never allowed him to stray too far (or too long) from his own "90 % crap" self-image. So Sam amending that to "100 % crap" is something I like even less. And I don`t want to see stuff from Dean re: Sam either. Their relationship is so clusterfucked at this point with no reason they like each other (or any portrayal of liking each other), it`s best when they don`t share scenes or at least only do so on outside matters. 

 

And believe it or not, I don`t need to see Dean-angst either. For the longest time, they just gave the character emo-porn because they gave him nothing else and he had to do something onscreen. I`d be fine if he was just the focus and center of the storyline. They could have given the POV to Sam or Cas or whomever last year and I wouldn`t have minded. Unfortunately, the way it was written, that didn`t work

 

When Dean had the stupid POV and Sam had the story, Dean was but a magnifying glass always to keep the viewer super-focused on Sam`s story. He angsted about Sam in private, he angsted about Sam to other characters, sometimes he even angsted about Sam to Sam. Last year Dean had the MOC-story and Sam and Cas had one throwaway conversation about it that lasted 30 seconds. They didn`t provide the super-focused magnifying glass to Dean`s story. 

[shang yiet]

That's because Dean is his own magnifying glass and Sam was not needed.

 

Part of the Sam angst was actually about Dean. When Sam died, it was about how Dean felt and so on. When Sam went dark, it was about how Dean felt betrayed. When Sam was in heaven, it was about how Dean felt about Sam's memories. When Sam went to college, it was about how Dean felt abandoned. Always the focus was on Dean's feelings.
 

"90 % crap" self-image.

 

 

Tired of this too. I find low self-esteem very boring to portray and it was always implied it was Sam's fault for not giving him validation.

[Aeryn13]

 

That's because Dean is his own magnifying glass and Sam was not needed.

 

Well, if no other character seems really interested in the story and yet the story is supposed to be happening, that seemed the only solution. But I did find it awkward. If Sam had the MOC, Dean would have been shown to angst over it 24/7 for 12 episodes in a row.  And Sam would have shown physical manifestations an episode after receiving it.

 

In the beginning, when Dean initially took on the Mark, I even expected a clear-cut role reversal. That it would be like the trials in a way and we would see (sublte) supernatural changes for Dean as early as episode 12 or 13. And that Sam (and later Cas) would be laser-focused on it. Yet it was the most non-reversal reversal I`ve ever seen. Usually they lift whole scenes/episodes/themes from previous Seasons and just switch the character`s places in them.    

 

I don`t know what it was, maybe they couldn`t get the "caretaker"-trope out of their heads for Dean? That, even when the character finds himself in a role previously held by Sam or other characters,and those others in the role previously held by Dean  that it wouldn`t change the writing for him and not change the writing for others?   

Edited August 14, 2014 by Aeryn13

[shang yiet]

Dean is the default POV guy. Even when things happened to Sam, Sam's own feelings never got the laser focus, much less when things are happening to Dean. The writers are probably not all that interested in Sam's feelings anyway except when they need him to make Dean angst some more.

[7kstar]

I think this one became an issue of look how well Jensen can act these scenes and then they just started writing more.  Yes he can do the really dramatic but Dean is a mixture and I really wish they would get back to the mix of having fun and fighting the good fight to save people.  This is the Dean I like the most.

 

But on the other-hand, I know that as a writer sometimes things are happening in your life you just focus on the negative and then the writing gets more negative.  It seems on the whole a lot of writers are writing a much darker world and it naturally brings up angst. 

 

Sam just doesn't do the angst scenes as well unless he is grieving.  Maybe the reason they stopped with the Sam Pov was because they believe he would take to heart Dean's words in Season 1 "No chick Flick moments"   At first Dean was the one that had all the secrets and he still does...but they started showing his feelings and then stopped showing Sam's.  They do a few times if the storyline requires it but the way they write Sam, I find myself liking Dean more, despite his weaknesses.

[SueB]

@Amerilla. You are not in the clear til EP 10. Hang on!

[catrox14]

@7kstar, I have been working on a post for the past couple of days about just this very thing, that Jared does not do angst particularly well.  Maybe I'll post it later. He can do sadness, anger, fear, loathing, bitchface etc, but the angst...not so much. I find that when he does it seem to come about more as judgmental and bitchy not angsty

 

I think Jensen has given Dean so much internal life that IMO the angst comes easy for him. 

[Amerilla]

@Amerilla. You are not in the clear til EP 10. Hang on!

 

 

I made it! Yay!

 

Today, I'm mourning the end of Meg, who I ended up liking quite a lot in the end. The whole "do you remember the pizza man?" scene with her and Cas was great. 

It's funny - I was a devoted Days and Guiding Light viewer right up until college, and I vaguely recognized Jensen from his days as Eric Brady. But it wasn't until I looked it up last night that I realized Meg / Rachel Miner was little Michelle Bauer on GL, and I just adored her character. Although it does make me feel very old, because she was just a tween back then. 

 

Here's my larger problem: I'm just about at the end of S8  - like, I'll be finished all the eps on Netflix before bed tonight. S9 isn't streaming yet, and won't be in the near future. I don't have cable, but I think I can watch S10 when it airs on Hulu. So, do I just suck it up and buy S9 off Amazon? I hate to spend $25 on something that there seems to be consensus on as the weakest season of the bunch. But patience is not one of my virtues. I'll probably give myself a week and give in. :-)

[Aeryn13]

 

So, do I just suck it up and buy S9 off Amazon? I hate to spend $25 on something that there seems to be consensus on as the weakest season of the bunch.

 

I don`t consider it the weakest. Of course, for me the second half of Season 8 is the vilest piece of crap (baring the Season 5 Finale) that this show ever had the misfortune of producing. I`m still regurgitating bits of pushed-down-Sam from my throat and can`t even think of Dean back then without shuddering at the degradation. It brings the whole Season down to an "utter crap" rating for me, despite a decent start in points..

 

So Season 9, while staring off weak and predictable, was quite a lot better for me. Oodles better. In fact, one episode stands as a long-time favourite now and introduces one of the coolest guest characters that show has had in years. And while it genuinely carries the same writing flaws it always has, there is also some good stuff in the mix. 

 

Metatron is a seriously annoying writerly insert, though. I was as disappointed in him as a bad guy as I was in the Leviathans during Season 7..  

[DittyDotDot]

Usually, the previous season becomes available on Netflix for streaming a couple of weeks before the new season airs. But if you just can't wait, that might be your only option. Although, you may not have to buy the entire season, usually the last five are available on Hulu...so only have to purchase 18 eps instead of 23. ;)

 

I always hate to deter folks from watching and making their own decisions about things. I might classify it as the worst season, but others think it was one of the best post-Kripke seasons. It's all perspective. The show's tone has changed a lot under Carver's care, but some people have welcomed that and think it's better, so you may not think S9 is the weakest...

[Demented Daisy]

Usually, the previous season becomes available on Netflix for streaming a couple of weeks before the new season airs.

 

 

Agreed.  Season 9 will be available on dvd on 09 September (S9 available on 09-09... creepy!), so it should be available on Netflix around the 16th.  Gotta get that money before the streamers get a hold of it.  ;-)

[catrox14]

@Amerilla ,The CW website  has the most 5 recently aired episodes and they have been rerunning s9 on Tuesday nights. Right now they have 12 through 16. So you would need the first 11. 

 

For me the good about s9 outweighs the bad, but then bah...I can't say anymore without spoiling but despite my reasons for having issues with s9, I can still recommend it over all. .... I think.

 

AHHHH...so confused.....I'm here to help

Edited August 15, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

@Amerilla,

 

I like Season 9 and the second half has some really good eps.  There are a few in the first part.  Can you do itunes?  You can select the one you want to buy and only have to buy a few.  I don't think 9 is the weakest and there are fans that agree. 

 

I don't think you have to watch too many before the last few, I mean it is the usual in this verse, many stand alones and a few that really dig into the myth arch.

 

You do need to watch First Born and it gives a summary of what happened that you can decide if you want to watch more. 

 

http://www.buddytv.com/supernatural/season-9.aspx

has a list of ep and a short summary.

 

Slumber Party, Bad Boys and Rock and A Hard Place are strong ep IMO. 

The last time I bought a season was Season 5 and I'm thinking about buying Season 9.  I wouldn't say the same for 6-8.  Those season's I would only buy the eps I like.  Every season has some really strong ones, a few good ones and some you should skip. 

 

The problem is that as fans we don't agree which ones those are.  So it depends on your taste.  I find the first half weaker of season 9.  Not sure if anything I said was helpful, but many fans feel that season 9 is stronger.  Hence the rating increase.

Edited August 15, 2014 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

Despite my rants about s9, it might end up being the first season I buy.  How weird is that?

[catrox14]

S9 is weird. I think there are some really great episodes and really bad throughout the season. Just when I think I can brush off the first half I think about "Devil May Care" , "I'm No Angel", "Slumber Party", "Bad Boys" and yes, I have a place in my heart for "Dog Dean Afternoon". But with ep 11 boy does it all kick into gear and most of the episodes are at least good to very good save a handful and one that we will never speak of again. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Edited August 15, 2014 by catrox14