All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

I would argue that Fallen Idols and Curious Case of Dean Winchester were mytharc episodes as well.  At the outset of S5 the mytharc was being sold as the battle between Lucifer and Michael with BOTH Sam and Dean as their respective Chosen Vessels. Of course that all was thrown out the window but I digress.  

 

Fallen Idols aired 5th in S5 and served to further the divide between Dean and Sam even as THE END served to put Sam back hunting with Dean.  (**I still don't get why it aired after THE END. It would have made a lot more sense to air before THE END when Sam and Dean reconciled...ish. But whatever)

 

Anyway Dean was apparently still upset with Sam and was having trouble forgiving and forgetting Sam's betrayal with Ruby. Sam's retort was that if Dean had just trusted him enough and believed in him he wouldn't have had to go with Ruby. And Sam makes the big speech about how he was tired of Dean being a jerk to him because Dean can't understand what's it's like to be the one that started the Apocalpyse and that he's just trying to make things right blah blah blah.(NEVER MIND that Dean literally told Bobby they both broke it...but okay)  

 

IMO the mytharc parallel was Dean was the bully big brother like Michael and Sam is the misunderstood put upon Lucifer. ( OH MY GODS I HATE THIS EPISODE SO MUCH.  I still don't get why it aired after THE END. It would have made a lot more sense to air before THE END when Sam and Dean reconciled...ish. But whatever. Stupid episode but mytharc IMO

 

Curious Case of Dean Winchester: This was about Bobby feeling impotent and useless and to remind Bobby he has value as a hunter and in the fight to stop the Apocalpyse, mirroring Dean's slow decent into thinking he won't be able to stop the Apocalpyse or not say yes to Michael. Dean tries to get Bobby's years back but suddenly can't win at poker, and is aged up, losing his vitality and becomes kind of impotent. Sam who apparently wasn't good at poker, is still youthful and vital wins at poker when he apparently really didn't before and saves Dean.  (OH HAI SEASON 11 I SEE YOU with Dean feeling impotent against Amara. UGH).

  

I'm not sure where Swap Meat fits in other than Dean being too stupid to figure out it wasn't Sam for like most of the episode and that it was giving us Sam in another meatsuit foreshadowing him being possessed by Lucifer? I think originally it was supposed to be Dean and Sam swapped to walk a mile in the other shoes but it all got changed.

 

So Yeah I think all of s4 and S5 episodes had overall mytharc implications be it plot or characterizations. But man thinking about these makes me realize just how MUCH s5 is floating around s11....and that does NOT make me happy. Unless they subvert it and actually make Dean key to killing Amara

[DittyDotDot]

Well, it's all perspective, I guess. Sure, all the episodes mention the on-going storyline and since Sam and Dean are the main storyline there was something to do with the main one, but the three episodes I mentioned had the "why are we hunting randoms instead of actively stopping the apocalypse" discussion. TPTB basically came out and stated, "Just so you know, we're taking a break from the apocalypse and the pissing match between Heaven and Hell this week."  

 

They do this multiple times in each and every season, but I just think S5 stands out as being mostly free of this discussion, myself.

[Aeryn13]

I think during Season 5 both mytharc and standalones had the same problem: the apocalypse was snoretastic. 

 

In Season 4 you had the "ZOMG, another seal broken...T minus 5 till Lucifer". Lucifer being freed got a big build-up as this horrible event that would spell doom and glood for everyone. And then the actual event was a huge letdown.

 

Which, granted, this happens on this show a lot. The 200? or so escaped demons in the Season 2 Finale wasn`t that big a deal in the aftermath. And we only learned about Lilith escaping a bit later. And even she wasn`t a big deal really. We also had the escaped Leviathans who only occassionally bored us with their corporate plans every now and then. The fallen angels on Earth did...not much either. Amara has probably killed less people than Dean and Sam at this point.

 

But, all of these release evils were only set up in their respective final episodes of the Season. So neither of them had an entire Season of build-up and fretting to the event. Lucifer did and he did jackshit on any global scale, just like any other Big Bad. If it was the mytharcs or the standalones dealing with him. 

 

I do get it, they don`t have the budget to make an actual apocalypse happen, at worst some tiny town in nowhere gets it. And their structure of mytharc vs. standalone, especially random goofy fillers doesn`t lend itself to that either. But if you can`t and don`t want to change the entire landscape to say Walking Dead or the 100, then don`t do those ridiculous build-ups either.

 

If your show will never look like anything but Vancouver and the surrounding area standing in for present day US, then stop teasing dystopian threats. This is the upteenth "apocalypse" going on in your show right now and I don`t think the word means what you think it means, writers. A global-level extinction event, even in its pre-pre-pre-pre-starting phase should be noticed.       

[AwesomO4000]

Fallen Idols aired 5th in S5 and served to further the divide between Dean and Sam even as THE END served to put Sam back hunting with Dean.  (**I still don't get why it aired after THE END. It would have made a lot more sense to air before THE END when Sam and Dean reconciled...ish. But whatever)

 

Anyway Dean was apparently still upset with Sam and was having trouble forgiving and forgetting Sam's betrayal with Ruby. Sam's retort was that if Dean had just trusted him enough and believed in him he wouldn't have had to go with Ruby. And Sam makes the big speech about how he was tired of Dean being a jerk to him because Dean can't understand what's it's like to be the one that started the Apocalpyse and that he's just trying to make things right blah blah blah.(NEVER MIND that Dean literally told Bobby they both broke it...but okay)  

 

IMO the mytharc parallel was Dean was the bully big brother like Michael and Sam is the misunderstood put upon Lucifer. ( OH MY GODS I HATE THIS EPISODE SO MUCH.  I still don't get why it aired after THE END. It would have made a lot more sense to air before THE END when Sam and Dean reconciled...ish. But whatever. Stupid episode but mytharc IMO

 

I have a few different views on this episode, though I agree with you on the disliking it part. I think one problem is the episode author. I usually don't get her general writing for Sam (and I think it's inconsistent), and when given motivation and/or POV beats for Sam in her episodes, she generally muffs them (in my opinion), the biggest previous example being "Chris Angel is a Douchebag" (which to me was a huge "huh where'd that come from?" in terms of Sam's motivation). I've really only liked one of her episodes, and sort of liked another one, mostly due to a person of the week whom I loved (and who(m?) she sadly killed.) That being said, I think it wasn't unexpected (for me) that she didn't get across what I thought this episode was trying to get across.

 

I didn't mind the placement too much, because I (think I) got what the episode was trying to say, and I (think I) got what was happening with Dean here. The reason why it was after "The End" I think, is because it was supposed to be showing glimpses of an instance where Dean's "stuff it down" strategy wasn't going to work. The reconciliation from "The End" was tentative - at least on Dean's part - and this episode I think was supposed to be showing some of the cracks in Dean's "lead box" from later episodes. Dean was conflicted, and Sam was making it difficult for him. At the same time that Dean could see that Sam was pretty much trying really hard to make things up to Dean, Dean was still angry, and so now he also felt a little guilty for still being angry, and annoyed that he perhaps shouldn't be angry and also (entirely understandably) that he didn't have time to be angry. At the same time Dean on one hand thought that they both broke it, but at other times he blamed Sam ("Yeah, well we all know who's fault that is"). Even at the end of the episode there was this contradiction - Dean mentions breaking the first seal and so therefore not being "blameless," but he also doesn't contradict Sam when Sam says that he started the apocalypse.

 

So for me, this episode was supposed to be a start, a seed, to show how Dean ends up how he does later on in "Dark Side..." through "Point of No Return," in terms of Sam and not trusting him still. Even though I really liked "Sam, Interrupted" I think they missed an opportunity to look at that aspect a little more than the flash at the end of the episode which to me seemed a little rushed. The episode definitely covered Dean's guilt in terms of thinking he had to save everyone, and there was the tongue and cheek (paraphrase) "It wasn't his fault, really. He was just high" flash, but Dean's anger/annoyance with Sam trying to express how messed up he felt seemed a bit rushed since it wasn't also addressed earlier in the episode during his "talks" with the "psychiatrist." But I think the sentiment was a call back to this episode ("Fallen Idols").

 

I also got a different vibe from Sam's complaints - and I think this is where Julie Seige failed (for me). Sam was working on incomplete information. He had no idea what happened to Dean in "The End." He had no idea that Dean was shown that Sam would (supposedly) give up and become Lucifer and that Dean felt the pressure to try to stop this and therefore maybe return to Sam before he was ready. The last Sam knew was Dean had basically cut the family ties and pretty much said "have a nice life, Sam" and hung up on him. Which is why he asked Dean why he changed his mind. Sam took Dean's "Because we make each other human" at face value and figured that Dean was ready to let Sam back in. This episode was supposed to show (I think) that that maybe wasn't the case, and that Sam was genuinely (and I think not unreasonably) confused as to why Dean was being a little bit of a jerk. We knew, because we saw "The End," but Sam didn't know and couldn't figure out why if Dean was supposedly ready to work with him again why he'd at the same time be making working with Dean a pain in the ass to the point where it was potentially affecting the job - which wasn't like Dean at all - hence Sam's confusion.

 

I also don't think that Sam was blaming Dean - at all - for his going with Ruby. Sam's tone made no sense in that regard (to me). And entirely contradicted Sam's point of saying that going with Ruby made him feel less like the "little brother." Because blaming Dean - if that had been what he was doing - would entirely be a little brother thing to do and therefore be the opposite of what Sam was saying... So major fail for me in Julie Seige's writing there. I don't think that was supposed to be the message of Sam's argument - because it wouldn't make sense (to me). I think it was supposed to be what Sam said: that Sam wanted to feel more independent, and due to family dynamics - which are very easy to fall back into - Sam felt more independent at that time in his life when he was away from Dean. My sister told me the same exact thing when we were younger - and she was right. However, Sam was also acknowledging that not only was that feeling his own fault - i.e. a fault in his (Sam's) perception ("No, it [the fault] was mine") - but that he totally messed up on his own, and wanted to work with Dean to fix it. Sam just didn't want to work in a partnership where he had no input, because it compromised their ability to do the work.

 

So once again Julie Seige was given a pivotal moment in Sam's point of view and totally - in my opinion - bungled it. This one wasn't as bad as the one from "Chris Angel..." but it was pretty close.

 

I'm not sure where Swap Meat fits in

 

Julie Seige again. And she takes what should've been an easy message - Sam learns what he suspected, that he enjoys his life hunting with Dean - and mostly makes it about Sam lying, and maybe not even that clear of a message, since the first thing Sam does is bitch about the music. *sigh*

 

And yes, in my opinion, it was really silly that Dean didn't notice it wasn't Sam. The message for Dean was also bungled here, because it made it sort of look like Dean didn't really know Sam and/or wanted a Sam who was more like him (Dean), and that Dean would've been happier that way when instead it should've been harkening back to the message from "Fallen Idols" that what was really making Dean uncomfortable and what he was questioning was Sam's potential trustworthiness... in which case Dean should've immediately questioned why "Sam" was acting all weird, because that's not right/normal and might indicate Sam is up to something. So yeah another character motivation fail for me from this writer.

 

I think during Season 5 both mytharc and standalones had the same problem: the apocalypse was snoretastic. 

 

In Season 4 you had the "ZOMG, another seal broken...T minus 5 till Lucifer". Lucifer being freed got a big build-up as this horrible event that would spell doom and glood for everyone. And then the actual event was a huge letdown.

 

For me, I think that is what it was supposed to be (sort of), but it wasn't. There was a lot of talk from the angels about how it was all OMG the seals are breaking, what will we do, but actually it wasn't, because we never really saw the angels doing much of anything to stop the seals from breaking... and in the end, we found out the higher up angels actually wanted the seals to break. I didn't think the Lucifer event was a "huge letdown" because the angels themselves never - in my opinion - built it up at all. According to Zachariah's attitude, they (the angels) were going to win. No big deal that we're letting Lucifer out. *shrug* So in my opinion, there wasn't really a build up, because the big wigs themselves though it wasn't any big deal. The only ones who realized it was a big deal was Sam and Dean, and they didn't even know what "it" was. Which is why season 4 was so damn depressing for me. Nobody but Sam and Dean gave a shit about stopping it, and no one told Sam and Dean anything they needed to know to actually stop what was happening, or actively worked against them, so they were doomed to fail. i.e. depressing.

 

We also had the escaped Leviathans who only occassionally bored us with their corporate plans every now and then.

 

I thought that season 7 incorporated the Leviathans well into many of the episodes, even some of the monster of the week episodes* and from the very beginning. When the leviathans themselves were not in an episode - and I think they were in at least half of the episodes if not more - we had Frank often talking about what the leviathans were doing, we had Dean researching what the leviathans were doing. If season 7 did nothing else, in my opinion, it kept a consistent focus on the season's big bad and how that big bad affected Dean especially. And I personally found a lot of the leviathan characters interesting or amusing - Chet, Edgar, Dick Roman, real estate lady and her assistant leviathans, and Leviathan Sam and Dean. Even the little girl leviathan had her moments, and I liked the tongue in cheek tie in with "Dr. Sexy." So miles vary there. And I thought that their plans were rather smart and could've been effective myself.

 

* As was the case in "Shut Up Dr. Phil," "How to Win Friends...", and "Out With the Old"

[Aeryn13]

 

we had Frank often talking about what the leviathans were doing, we had Dean researching what the leviathans were doing.

 

Both of which made for scenes that couldn`t get me interested in them. And they were all pointless too because all the investigating led to... Bobby coming back from the dead and giving a helpful presentation about the Leviathan`s plans. Like everything, the characters should have figured out on their own by then. If you take out all those scenes and just keep Bobby`s powerpoint presentatiion you get exactly the same result.  

 

 

If season 7 did nothing else, in my opinion, it kept a consistent focus on the season's big bad and how that big bad affected Dean especially.

 

For me it was more like the Winchesters being randomely videobombed in the Leviathan storyline. I could never stop thinking "why the hell are you there? this storyline doesn`t need you in it". And of course I know why they were there, because they are technically the leads of the show but if ever they both could have had a year of vacation, narratively this was it. Sam did have the Hellucinations at least as a side note. Dean had, I guess the fucking emo depression, which, if I could have taken a torch to it and burned it to the ground I would have. 

 

So that left me with the Leviathans as the protagonists of the Season-long arc. And unfortunately they bored me out of my skull. And I had high hopes for being from Purgatory as something fresh and scary. When they were crawling around in Cas in the Season Opener, they had potential. Cruelly dashed potential.   

 

Still, apart from that Amy disaster early on in the Season, I found that Season 7 is a year I could mostly sleep peacefully through. Nothing I liked or hated to wake me from slumber. That does give it a leg up over Seasons 6, 8 and now 11.  

Edited April 4, 2016 by Aeryn13

[trxr4kids]

For me it was more like the Winchesters being randomely videobombed in the Leviathan storyline. I could never stop thinking "why the hell are you there? this storyline doesn`t need you in it". And of course I know why they were there, because they are technically the leads of the show but if ever they both could have had a year of vacation, narratively this was it. Sam did have the Hellucinations at least as a side note. Dean had, I guess the fucking emo depression, which, if I could have taken a torch to it and burned it to the ground I would have. 

I felt like Jared and Jensen both could have played Dean and Sam in their sleep that season (7). There was nothing new for either of them. Dean being angry, angsty and drinking too much triggered by his father figures death, pretty sure I already saw that in season 2, talk about regressing a character. Sam having hallucinations, we saw that in season 5 on multiple occasions. The looming threat of his death imo, was by that point in the show a tired trope. Also the one character that I've come to rely on to always be a badass and never be emo, out of character, just plain annoying or stupid was benched the whole season only to return being driven by a demon, I'm still offended on Baby's behalf.

Edited April 4, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

 

driven by a demon, I'm still offended on Baby's behalf.

 

Wait, what demon drove Baby in s7??

[DittyDotDot]

Wait, what demon drove Baby in s7??

 

Meg. She was driving Baby in the finale when Baby had her triumphant return.

[catrox14]

Meg. She was driving Baby in the finale when Baby had her triumphant return.

 

OHHH that's right. I think I blocked that out of my mind because no demon should ever drive.....oh...wait..

 

 

 

I wonder if demon!Dean left sulphur in Baby....

Edited April 4, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

Meg. She was driving Baby in the finale when Baby had her triumphant return.

It's not that I didn't enjoy Meg as a character because I did, but I just couldn't handle Dean or Sam letting her drive/crash Baby as a diversion. I'm probably being melodramatic but with everything the show has told us that the Impala symbolizes that scene felt like what I would imagine the ice bucket challenge feels like.

[auntvi]

I got a kick out of Baby being driven straight through that sign, especially when badass Meg jumped out. Now if it were Garth, I'd have been pissed.

 

 

[catrox14]

It's not that I didn't enjoy Meg as a character because I did, but I just couldn't handle Dean or Sam letting her drive/crash Baby as a diversion. I'm probably being melodramatic but with everything the show has told us that the Impala symbolizes that scene felt like what I would imagine the ice bucket challenge feels like.

 

I think why I forget it's Meg is that the editing is SOOO bad. When it crashes through the sign there are CLEARLY two men in the car and neither is Meg...LOL probably the worst continuity error (non LOLcanon division) I have ever seen on this show

Edited April 4, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

It's not that I didn't enjoy Meg as a character because I did, but I just couldn't handle Dean or Sam letting her drive/crash Baby as a diversion. I'm probably being melodramatic but with everything the show has told us that the Impala symbolizes that scene felt like what I would imagine the ice bucket challenge feels like.

 

Oh, I couldn't believe they let Meg drive her either. But, even though I liked Meg, I always had issues with how she became an ally after all the shit she pulled in the first couple seasons.

 

But, if I've learned one thing from watching TV: Enemies are just friends in disguise.

I think why I forget it's Meg is that the editing is SOOO bad. When it crashes through the sign there are CLEARLY two men in the car and either is Meg...LOL probably the worst continuity error (non LOLcanon division) I have ever seen on this show

 

I don't think it's a continuity error, but purposely done to mislead the audience and make them think it's Sam and Dean, not Meg.

[catrox14]

 

I don't think it's a continuity error, but purposely done to mislead the audience and make them think it's Sam and Dean, not Meg.

 

Oh right! I haven't watched that episode in a long ass time. I just remembered thinking...So where did the two guys go. Did she just poof them out of there? Man, that was a bad finale. LOL

[AwesomO4000]

Both of which made for scenes that couldn`t get me interested in them. And they were all pointless too because all the investigating led to... Bobby coming back from the dead and giving a helpful presentation about the Leviathan`s plans. Like everything, the characters should have figured out on their own by then. If you take out all those scenes and just keep Bobby`s powerpoint presentatiion you get exactly the same result. 

I don't know about that. Some of Frank's research did pay off. Maybe not in terms of killing Dick Roman directly, but in terms of some of his plans, such as his plan to use people as cattle and in figuring out that the leviathans were part of the problem in Oregon. I also enjoyed Frank, so I was fine with that. Also, if I remember correctly, Frank was the one who figured out what Bobby's numbers meant.

 

For me it was more like the Winchesters being randomely videobombed in the Leviathan storyline. I could never stop thinking "why the hell are you there? this storyline doesn`t need you in it".

 

I understand how you felt here, because that's pretty much how I felt in season 4 with the angel storyline. We kept hearing about all of these "angel battles" and angel attempts to keep seals from breaking, but a lot of that happened offscreen. Sam and Dean spent most of the season not knowing what the heck was going on, sometimes stumbling on seal stuff accidentally, because no one would tell them what the potential seals were to stop them from breaking. They had very little course of action, because no one told them what the plan was. Sam was all "let's kill Lilith" but then Dean would ask "yeah, well how are we going to do that?" End of discussion - and the Sam and Dean "plot" comes to a screeching halt until Ruby's powerpoint in the finale episode and Zachariah's explanation when we finally, after 21 episodes, figure out what the actual plan/plot was, and it all had to do with the angels and the demons with Sam and Dean as simply pawns in the plot.. actually not even Sam and Dean, since the idea/plot was for them to simply be meatsuits in the end. Sam himself was only necessary to set Lucifer free, and then he was expendable/unnecessary. Dean was only considered useful as a meatsuit. Yeah, I was not a fan of that development, myself.

 

At least I had an idea what the leviathans were doing and why they had to be stopped somewhere in the middle of the season, and Sam and Dean actually did something to stop them and had a win.

 

So that left me with the Leviathans as the protagonists of the Season-long arc.

 

I thought it was pretty clear that they were the villains/antagonists.

 

That does give it a leg up over Seasons 6, 8 and now 11.

 

I liked season 6, but entirely agree with season 8. That will always be the worst season of the show for me with season 9 a very close second. (Season 9 had some potential at the start, but nope, they had to go the manufactured angst route again.)

[Aeryn13]

 

I understand how you felt here, because that's pretty much how I felt in season 4 with the angel storyline. We kept hearing about all of these "angel battles" and angel attempts to keep seals from breaking, but a lot of that happened offscreen. Sam and Dean spent most of the season not knowing what the heck was going on, sometimes stumbling on seal stuff accidentally, because no one would tell them what the potential seals were to stop them from breaking.

 

I thought Season 4 worked because Dean had his thing with the angels and Sam had his thing with Ruby. And even though they didn`t really know what either side wanted with them, they were sought after figures. The angels/demons wanted them for the big story. That is why they felt involved and important.

 

During Season 7, I think you could have killed off the Winchesters by episode 2 and still told the Leviathan story. Sure, it would have radically changed the show but the story remains intact. It needed the Leviathans but it didn`t need the Winchesters in it. I get that the Leviathans were supposed to be the Big Bad but this is why they felt like the protagonists to me.

 

I don`t care if the Winchesters were affected by them or researched them or anything, obviously something was needed to fill their screentime but I look at a story with the question of "does this character need to be there narratively?" If a character is the Chosen One of a particular story (and even if they really have no agency or are manipulated up the wazoo), then the answer is (still) yes. If they just randomely show up and insert themselves in the story, to me, they feel like an uninvited guest.

 

When Dean had the MOC, I thought it was a badly executed story that wasted oodles of potential but at least you couldn`t do the story without him because it was about the Mark and he had it.  

[AwesomO4000]

I thought Season 4 worked because Dean had his thing with the angels and Sam had his thing with Ruby. And even though they didn`t really know what either side wanted with them, they were sought after figures. The angels/demons wanted them for the big story. That is why they felt involved and important.

 

During Season 7, I think you could have killed off the Winchesters by episode 2 and still told the Leviathan story. Sure, it would have radically changed the show but the story remains intact. It needed the Leviathans but it didn`t need the Winchesters in it. I get that the Leviathans were supposed to be the Big Bad but this is why they felt like the protagonists to me.

 

I don`t care if the Winchesters were affected by them or researched them or anything, obviously something was needed to fill their screentime but I look at a story with the question of "does this character need to be there narratively?" If a character is the Chosen One of a particular story (and even if they really have no agency or are manipulated up the wazoo), then the answer is (still) yes. If they just randomely show up and insert themselves in the story, to me, they feel like an uninvited guest.

 

I guess I look at it differently. Yes, Sam and Dean were "sought after" figures in season 4, but mostly for the endgame only. To me, the demons and angels could've fought out their little politics and made sure that the seals broke and then at the end, Sam shows up and plays his role killing Lilith and Dean says "yes" (or not) to Michael. The same thing that happened could've happened if Sam and Dean weren't even involved in that storyline until the final episode, since they had little to no affect on the storyline until the end.

 

I guess it could be argued that Dean and Castiel's interactions had some affect on Castiel, but in the end that didn't really affect the story either, because Castiel got "reconditioned" and didn't decide to help until it was too late anyway, so again, no real affect on the storyline until the end of the season when it came to its depressing conclusion after a largely depressing season (in my opinion).

 

To me, that isn't that much different from season 7 in a way (except for the depressing part - because I found a lot of season 7 amusing; what can I say, I like somewhat dark, satirical comedy). And Sam and Dean didn't really insert themselves into the storyline... the leviathans and Dick Roman especially put them there, and there was a reason for that. Dean, Sam, and Bobby, were a target of the leviathans from the very beginning, because Dick Roman knew they were the main ones who knew who they were and were going to try to stop them (the leviathans). And if they could eliminate Sam, Dean, and Bobby, their chances of success would be much greater. To me, Sam and Dean were needed, because they were the ones who knew about the leviathans* and there was no one else who had the connections and knowledge needed to make the weapon... an angel (Castiel) a demon who could be talked into helping (Crowley) and an alpha (the alpha vamp)**. And I liked how that was tied in from season 6, too. If Sam and Dean were killed off in episode 2, the leviathans likely would've won, and it would've been a very different kind of show... a rather bizarre, dark comedy, apocalypse show which maybe could've been interesting, but it wouldn't have been Supernatural anymore.

 

* How long would it have taken other hunters to even figure out what the leviathans were if Dean, Sam, and Bobby had been killed off in episode 2?

**I'm pretty sure Bobby wasn't going to be finding Castiel or convincing the Alpha vampire to help - though he maybe could've sold his soul to Crowley again - but I guess miles vary there, too.

Edited April 5, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Demented Daisy]

From the Bunker thread:

 

This is kind of beside the point of the bunker (except when it comes to taste and why I think the bunker is a bad fit for them in general, I guess), but I don't think that Sam is nerdier than Dean. I think Sam is just more uptight, focused, and Type A than Dean. I think Dean is actually "nerdier," in that he seems more drawn toward collecting minutia or trivia and reading/watching stuff for fun. Dean's taste seems to run a little more traditionally "nerdy" than Sam's, too. The man watches anime porn, ffs. He seems to know and have an opinion on every song in the universe recorded between 1967 and 1987, although he apparently had never heard Taylor Swift until he wound up on some random bus in S9 (?). He quotes and makes references to music/movies/cultural stuff pretty much constantly. A lot of entertainment that he likes seems like it's about diving into a whole imaginary world, too (I include the anime porn in that!). Dean isn't "dorky" at all, but I do think he's pretty "nerdy." TBH I like that about him -- I find it charming.

 

OTOH, Sam can be relatively "dorky" and awkward, but I think he's actually not "nerdy" at all. (Which is why I found it weird that they made it a ~thing~ that Sam nerds out over serial killers. I mean come on. He doesn't seem to nerd out about literally ANYTHING else, and of all things, THAT is the subject he's into as an escape/hobby outside of their work (which is also hunting down and killing monsters, making the serial killer thing bizarrely redundant and work-related aside from being kind of random)? It just doesn't ring true to me. YMMV. I stand by my opinion that Sam would be a lot more likely to nerd out over fitness stuff, if he were liable to nerd out about anything. Fitness stuff plays more into his control issues and I can see him liking the physical intensity and focus involved in it. But that's just my random fanwank about the character, lol).

 

IMO, Dean is a "geek" and Sam is a "nerd".  

[catrox14]

This reminds me of a WikiHow

 

LOOOL. 

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-the-Difference-Between-Nerds-and-Geeks

 

I think all geeks are nerds but not all nerds are geeks.

 

IMO the lines blur with Sam and Dean if the above is anything to go by LOL

[SueB]

I'm very confused. I think I'm both.

[MysteryGuest]

Based on those definitions, I would say that Jensen leans more toward the Nerd, and Sam more toward the Geek, with some crossover.  LOL  Dean loves to speak in movie quotes, etc., while Sam can rattle off obscure facts about just about any topic.

[Demented Daisy]

The way I've always understood it is that geeks are more pop culture obsessed -- comics, games, books, etc. -- while nerds are more studious.  Nerds care more about academic pursuits than geeks do.

 

So, Big Bang Theory?  The guys are nerds and geeks; Amy and Bernadette are nerds; Penny is neither.

[catrox14]

I think Dean and Sam are  "label" fluid.  LOL

[catrox14]

 Penny is neither.

 

 

Penny is geek-adjacent IMO

 

Penny is

-Beautiful

-Lacks formal education

-Street smart and common sense

-Socially adept

-Versed in pop culture outside the genre and comic book geekdom, like sports and reality TV 

 

She quickly picked up the genre geekdom and was playing video games for hours on end. She argued the Transfer Properties of Thor's Hammer with Amy and Bernadette (That was one funny bit) And now she's a pharma rep.

 

Dean has a deep inner geek that he only lets out when he feels it's safe or that no one will mock him for it or around other geek adjacent people.

Hmmm I kind of ship Penny and Dean now. LOL

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from "The Bunker" thread.

 

And that points a HUGE problem in the shift of the show from how it portrayed Dean early on to the dumbing down of Dean over the years and as dictacted by plot.

 

 

I think both brothers have been dumbed down at various times as well as changing other aspects of their personality to fit the plot. For a few seasons there, Sam was sometimes damseled for plot purposes even though he's supposed to be an experienced hunter.
 

Back in s1 and s2 especially, Dean was always reading. Studying. He was not adverse to research. He enjoyed it. And Dean CLEARLY was a reader because he knew the difference between Vonneguts books. He was adept enough with computers. Frank taught him how to hack better.   At the beginning of s8, Dean found an app to translate languages and he was so proud of it. Yet Sam mocked him for it. Just like Sam mocked Dean is s1 with the EMF detector Dean made. I think those moments really stung Dean and left Dean thinking Sam thought Dean was stupid or something. And I think Dean deep down admired Sam for going to college. He didn't like how it happened though.

 

I think that you are maybe being a little hard on Sam here. If Sam mocking Dean a couple of times in the past 10 seasons or so makes Dean feel like Sam thinks he's stupid, I personally think Dean would be being a bit too sensitive. If Sam trusting Dean to be the leader and actively looking to him when it comes to planning and strategy doesn't show Dean how much Sam thinks of his abilities, I don't know what else would, because in those situations, Sam is trusting their very lives to Dean's intelligence. Maybe sometimes Sam is just in a bad mood and feels like being a shithead - something which the writers in season 8 seemed to think was a major part of his personality for some inexplicable reason. I personally don't think that should be held against him all the time.

 

Dean used to mock Sam enough in the early days for everything from being a nerd to being awkward with women if not outright mocking Sam's feelings or interests as being girly (I'm still not sure why he mocked Sam for the fairytale thing, because as someone pointed out, the original fairy tales especially have lore in them, such as trolls, and elves and such) or calling him Samantha. That's what brothers do. And it's not like Dean was "just kidding" then, because Sam is awkward with women sometimes, so that is likely not something he liked to have pointed out to him. However, I don't think that this is how Dean always thinks of Sam because of a few incidences of mocking Sam.

 

As for Dean doing less research later on, I think it's pretty much what MysteryGuest said over in "The Bunker" thread. It's just not Dean's favorite part of the job, and since Sam sometimes does like it - and weirdly it's something else Dean sometimes teases Sam for - then it just makes sense that Dean let Sam do most of the research when Sam is game. Sometimes Sam does get tired of it and doesn't feel like it, or he's getting nowhere, so Dean takes over - or complains, depending on his mood. But that's just part of making the most of a partnership, in my opinion. (Real life example: My hubby doesn't like waiting in lines, but me, I don't mind at all, so when I'm with him, and there's a line to be waited in, I do it for him - whether it's to get him coffee at Starbuck's, get us tickets at the movie theater, pay a bill at a restaurant, any line really. No need for him to wait in line, because I'm happy to do that for him. That's my thing for him. Whereas I don't drive, and I don't want to, so he does the driving and is happy to do that for me.)

 

One time Dean did insist on doing the research was Dick Roman, and he sort of became obsessed with it. That turned out not to be the best thing for Dean at the time. I think Sam can get obsessed too when it's Dean - as he did in "Mystery Spot" - but for regular cases, I think he can look at it analytically, compartmentalize. I could see Dean getting more emotionally involved a bit though - as in maybe identifying with the victims or feeling guilty or pressured that he won't solve it fast enough - so again, I think it makes sense that Sam would be a good choice to do the research when he's willing to take that on.

Edited April 25, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

From the Bunker thread:

 

 

IMO, Dean is a "geek" and Sam is a "nerd".

::snort:: Sam eats "things"? ;)

Oh how that word has changed!

[ahrtee]

I think both brothers have been dumbed down at various times as well as changing other aspects of their personality to fit the plot. For a few seasons there, Sam was sometimes damseled for plot purposes even though he's supposed to be an experienced hunter.

 

 

I think that you are maybe being a little hard on Sam here. If Sam mocking Dean a couple of times in the past 10 seasons or so makes Dean feel like Sam thinks he's stupid, I personally think Dean would be being a bit too sensitive. If Sam trusting Dean to be the leader and actively looking to him when it comes to planning and strategy doesn't show Dean how much Sam thinks of his abilities, I don't know what else would, because in those situations, Sam is trusting their very lives to Dean's intelligence. Maybe sometimes Sam is just in a bad mood and feels like being a shithead - something which the writers in season 8 seemed to think was a major part of his personality for some inexplicable reason. I personally don't think that should be held against him all the time.

 

Dean used to mock Sam enough in the early days for everything from being a nerd to being awkward with women if not outright mocking Sam's feelings or interests as being girly (I'm still not sure why he mocked Sam for the fairytale thing, because as someone pointed out, the original fairy tales especially have lore in them, such as trolls, and elves and such) or calling him Samantha. That's what brothers do. And it's not like Dean was "just kidding" then, because Sam is awkward with women sometimes, so that is likely not something he liked to have pointed out to him. However, I don't think that this is how Dean always thinks of Sam because of a few incidences of mocking Sam.

 

 

IA that both brothers have been dumbed down occasionally, when it's necessary for the plot (*sigh*)  But Dean is often shown as being dumb or uncouth (ie, stuffing food in his mouth, talking with his mouth full, etc.) just for comedy purposes, which always annoys me, because no, that's not his real personality.

 

But the main thing about your post I want to point out is that there's a difference between "teasing" and "mocking" which can be mostly in the eyes of the one being teased.  Teasing is (generally) gentle and comes from affection.  Mocking is generally meant to belittle.  But yes, what someone considers a gentle tease can be painful when it's a sensitive or sore spot (imagine even a family member "teasing" a teenager about her weight, for instance.  Chances are it's not going to be taken well, even if not meant to hurt.)  

 

IMO, Dean had always been told (and truly believed) that Sam was the brilliant one and he was just the brawn, and he was proud of Sam and believed it.  He accepted that they had different strengths.  But when he showed Sam something he'd done outside of his comfort zone that he *was* proud of (such as the EMF detector) and Sam said something that might have been meant as teasing, it still came out as belittling.  Dean's face showed it at the time--he was hurt.  IMO, Sam, on the other hand, wasn't particularly sensitive about being called "Samantha" (that was something that had carried over from childhood) or being teased about his awkwardness around women so it wasn't hurtful.  Annoying, maybe, but not hurtful.  

 

I do think Dean got over his insecurity about his intelligence later (most recently in Baby, when Sam expressed surprise that Dean knew the source of the quote, Dean shrugged it off with a "hey, I read!" comment that didn't seem hurt or defensive.)  But the fact that Sam *did* seem surprised is, well, kind of annoying after all this time.  

[trxr4kids]

Brought over from "The Bunker" thread.

 

 

I think both brothers have been dumbed down at various times as well as changing other aspects of their personality to fit the plot. For a few seasons there, Sam was sometimes damseled for plot purposes even though he's supposed to be an experienced hunter.

 

 

I think that you are maybe being a little hard on Sam here. If Sam mocking Dean a couple of times in the past 10 seasons or so makes Dean feel like Sam thinks he's stupid, I personally think Dean would be being a bit too sensitive. If Sam trusting Dean to be the leader and actively looking to him when it comes to planning and strategy doesn't show Dean how much Sam thinks of his abilities, I don't know what else would, because in those situations, Sam is trusting their very lives to Dean's intelligence. Maybe sometimes Sam is just in a bad mood and feels like being a shithead - something which the writers in season 8 seemed to think was a major part of his personality for some inexplicable reason. I personally don't think that should be held against him all the time.

 

Dean used to mock Sam enough in the early days for everything from being a nerd to being awkward with women if not outright mocking Sam's feelings or interests as being girly (I'm still not sure why he mocked Sam for the fairytale thing, because as someone pointed out, the original fairy tales especially have lore in them, such as trolls, and elves and such) or calling him Samantha. That's what brothers do. And it's not like Dean was "just kidding" then, because Sam is awkward with women sometimes, so that is likely not something he liked to have pointed out to him. However, I don't think that this is how Dean always thinks of Sam because of a few incidences of mocking Sam

I don't really think it's being hard on Sam to point out that's he's said some awful things to Dean and imo he said some of those things specifically to hit Dean where it hurt the most. Dean has also been guilty of this, their brothers, they know which buttons to push.

I also am of the opinion that Dean's earlier teasing/ mockery of Sam was done specifically for the reason of pushing his buttons to get him out of the spiral he was in after Jess's death and not done to be cruel or condescending but to get him to laugh or fight back against, giving him a sense of control and normalcy.

 

I completely agree both brothers are dumbed down at various times as I said in the bunker thread too, I just think Dean get's the worst of it intellectually while Sam get's the worst of it physically, if that makes sense. I mean seriously someone explain to me how that annoying guy Cole got the jump on, knocked out, moved and tied an unconscious Sam who is like 8 or 9 in taller and however many lbs heavier. How would you even tie an unconscious person to a chair anyway regardless of size difference, it's basically dead weight. Bah

Edited April 25, 2016 by trxr4kids

[SueB]

I don't really think it's being hard on Sam to point out that's he's said some awful things to Dean and imo he said some of those things specifically to hit Dean where it hurt the most. Dean has also been guilty of this, their brothers, they know which buttons to push.

I also am of the opinion that Dean's earlier teasing/ mockery of Sam was done specifically for the reason of pushing his buttons to get him out of the spiral he was in after Jess's death and not done to be cruel or condescending but to get him to laugh or fight back against, giving him a sense of control and normalcy.

I completely agree both brothers are dumbed down at various times as I said in the bunker thread too, I just think Dean get's the worst of it intellectually while Sam get's the worst of it physically, if that makes sense. I mean seriously someone explain to me how that annoying guy Cole got the jump on, knocked out, moved and tied an unconscious Sam who is like 8 or 9 in taller and however many lbs heavier. How would you even tie an unconscious person to a chair anyway regardless of size difference, it's basically dead weight. Bah

I'm envisioning a pulley system and dolley cart combo (to move an unconscious moose).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

IA that both brothers have been dumbed down occasionally, when it's necessary for the plot (*sigh*)  But Dean is often shown as being dumb or uncouth (ie, stuffing food in his mouth, talking with his mouth full, etc.) just for comedy purposes, which always annoys me, because no, that's not his real personality.

Recent episode - I forget which one - where they are having dinner at Jody's house - Sam was as uncouth eating (perhaps even worse!) than Dean.  I was a little shocked by that actually.  I understand that neither grew up having regular family dinners, so perhaps missed some finer etiquette lessons.  But Sam was at Stanford for 4 years - he should have picked up a little there.  I give Dean a complete pass on his table manners.  

 

But the main thing about your post I want to point out is that there's a difference between "teasing" and "mocking" which can be mostly in the eyes of the one being teased.  Teasing is (generally) gentle and comes from affection.  Mocking is generally meant to belittle.  But yes, what someone considers a gentle tease can be painful when it's a sensitive or sore spot (imagine even a family member "teasing" a teenager about her weight, for instance.  Chances are it's not going to be taken well, even if not meant to hurt.) 

Speaking as the younger sibling of an older brother who LOVED to 'tease' me (he's 6 years older) I completely agree with the "in the eyes of the one being teased" bit.  I got teased about my hair (red.  He's blonde).  My weight (not overweight, but I was scrawny - wish I still was.  Ha!) and even being flat chested (when I was 10 no less.  So, of course I was, and pointed that out to him.  The girls he was dating were 16 and filling out.  But did that stop him?  No.)  So, yeah, I get what you're saying about in the eyes of the one being teased, but on the other hand, when it goes too far, it goes too far.  And  - even now as an adult - I understand that while maybe he didn't do it to really hurt, it sure didn't seem to come from a place of affection, either.  In my case, it seems like it was more a way to laud power over me.  More like to not-so-subtly demonstrate that he was older and therefore "the boss".  If that make sense.  I wish I could explain it better.   

 

IMO, Dean had always been told (and truly believed) that Sam was the brilliant one and he was just the brawn,

Was he "told" outright by John, do you think?  Or was this a case of believing it because they were treated differently?  Realizing here also, that young Sam was pretty small, so of course, Dean would be the brawn at that point.  I think also the fact that Sam went to Stanford could have contributed to Dean believing this, but I'm not sure this was something that he was "told".

 

and he was proud of Sam and believed it.  He accepted that they had different strengths.  But when he showed Sam something he'd done outside of his comfort zone that he *was* proud of (such as the EMF detector) and Sam said something that might have been meant as teasing, it still came out as belittling.  Dean's face showed it at the time--he was hurt. 

Yeah, that was a nasty bit from Sam.  I took it as belittling.

 

IMO, Sam, on the other hand, wasn't particularly sensitive about being called "Samantha" (that was something that had carried over from childhood) or being teased about his awkwardness around women so it wasn't hurtful.  Annoying, maybe, but not hurtful.

Speaking from my own experience again, I disagree with this.  Because my older brother relentlessly 'teased' me even when I told him to stop, I had to learn to ignore it and act like it didn't bother me, even though it did.  Because if I didn't ignore him and act like it didn't bother me, the teasing just got worse.  This is how I interpret Sam's reactions, or non-reactions, to Dean's comments.

 

 

I do think Dean got over his insecurity about his intelligence later (most recently in Baby, when Sam expressed surprise that Dean knew the source of the quote, Dean shrugged it off with a "hey, I read!" comment that didn't seem hurt or defensive.)  But the fact that Sam *did* seem surprised is, well, kind of annoying after all this time.

That comment from Sam annoyed me, because as you and others have pointed out, Dean has been shown to do research.  So of course he reads and is intelligent.  

 

their brothers, they know which buttons to push.

Ain't that the truth!

Edited April 25, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Aeryn13]

I think that is Sam`s more or less natural modus operandi, though. Dean doesn`t much care about manners or making a scene whereas Sam makes a lot more of a conscious effort to blend in and be diplomatic but he rolls his eyes all the same. Just not so much to people`s faces. Or he rolls them at Dean. He generally shows not much patience with "quirky" types of people. So when he comes off as snooty at times, I think that is a deliberate acting choice.

 

And it`s a pretty common trope for the "brainy" character. Either they can appear overly naive in some way - think Spencer Reid on Criminal Minds or they appear quite belittling- think Rodney McKay of Stargate. Sam, for me, falls into the latter category. And Dean is the character who spends the most time with the Sam-character so it`s more proportionally directed his way.

 

The only difference with the usual trope is that IMO it`s not something the show paints as a flaw. They present it more as that Sam IS superior in those situation so he is right. And the audience is invited alongside the mockery and belittlement. It has the averse affect on me but I doubt that is the desired outcome.

 

I don`t think Dean thinks much of his own intelligence, he has just more or less actually given up on being bothered on that front. If you think you are a bloodthirsty killer deep down or a constant failure, the dumb digs might seem like small fries. If those other issues actually ever got resolved, he might revisit that issue.   ,  

[catrox14]

 

I think that you are maybe being a little hard on Sam here. If Sam mocking Dean a couple of times in the past 10 seasons or so makes Dean feel like Sam thinks he's stupid, I personally think Dean would be being a bit too sensitive.

 

I don't think I am being hard on Sam on this one. Not about the EMF and the app post Purgatory. I note those specifically because of when they happened. They jsut happen to be two of the more egregious examples of Sam reacting negatively when Dean displays intellect. More often than not it comes across to me as belittling and mocking more than good-natured teasing.  Maybe in Phantom Traveler, Jared just hadn't found the right beats for Sam yet for it to be teasing and Jensen couldn't find the right beat to show that Dean was like whatever dude, but I really don't think that is the case. Nor do I think it was entirely being played for comedy either.  I mean just look at this face :(.

 

I can't find the gif but prior to this

Dean: It's an EMF meter. It reads electromagnetic frequencies.

Sam: Yeah, I know what an EMF meter is, but why does that one look like a busted up old walkman?

Dean: 'Cause that's what I made it out of.

 

IMO Jensen was making purposeful choices to show that Dean had a sensitive side and wasn't just a macho dickbag. So yeah I think it was played straight as Sam being a dick and Dean being hurt by that. 

 

I understand gifsets are not the best way to critique scenes because the context is at times skewed so I decided to rewatch 1.04(what a hard task. I actually really love this episode a lot).

 

Sam is kind of an ass throughout the episode

 

Sam was up before dawn and Dean asked about Sam's sleeping and that Sam was having nightmares. So at least they put it out there that Sam may not have been altogether together. I could put down Sam's smarmy mocking of Dean's invention to PTSD if they hadn't established that Sam was already kind of competitive with Dean on research in the pilot BEFORE Jessica died, with Sam pushing Dean out of the way to "search the web" ( I miss "Search the Web" ).  If Sam was retaliating for Dean calling him a "college boy" or whatever, I don't know when Dean have done that when Dean hadn't spoken with Sam in like two years?

 

But that's not the only time in the episode he question's Dean's intellect or mocks it in some way. Later in the episode, Sam has  the plan to find out if the flight attendant is possessed:

 

Sam: She'll react to the name of God

Dean: Oh. Nice.

Sam: "Say it in Latin"

Dean: "I know"

Sam: "In Latin it's Christo"

Dean: "Dude, I KNOW, I'm not an idiot"

 

So that's twice in this episode that Sam has questioned Dean's intellect or mocked it. Maybe Dean overreacted because he was upset about flying but honestly why did Sam feel the need to tell Dean twice what to say when Dean knew?  Does Sam just think Dean doesn't know how to do exorcisms anymore or that he needs Exorcism Latin for Dummies refresher when Dean's been hunting longer than Sam? It was exposition but it did Sam no favors that's for sure.

 

If this episode had come before "Dead in the Water" I think the "dickishness" would have felt more "earned" based on the previous 2 episodes. He teased Dean about Amy Acker but that seemed like teasing not belittling. I dunno maybe episodes should have been flipped around and Sam's characterization would have made more sense but they aired it in the way they did.

 

Anyway fast forward to s8 when Dean gets out of Purgatory. Sam belittles/mocks Dean for downloading an app. Again, it's not the words but the tone with which Sam speaks those words and the face acting that show's Sam being an asshole. He mocked Dean for loving having a cheeseburger again. "It's just a cheeseburger, dude".  (EMPATHY SAM!! EMPATHY.) In both s1 and s8, IMO it's just passive-aggressive shit from Sam because Dean had come back into his life and dragged him back to a life he doesn't really want. 

 

He's also given to going after Dean in little bitchy ways too. Like rolling his eyes when Dean talks about reading or back in s9 when he said 'Yeah,  Dean I like to read books....with pictures' and levels a glare at Dean that implies Dean would only read books with pictures. It showed up again in s11 in Baby with him seeming to be surprised that  Dean knew about Aesop's Fables.

 

Dean is constantly being under-estimated because he's so beautiful and sexy.(not unlike our Penny discussion). It's one thing for some random asshole, human, demon or angel to think Dean is stupid but IMO for Sam to imply it...I think cuts him in away that sticks. 

 

Why Sam  chooses Dean's intellect as the thing to poke at...I don't know.  But I don't like it.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't really think it's being hard on Sam to point out that's he's said some awful things to Dean and imo he said some of those things specifically to hit Dean where it hurt the most. Dean has also been guilty of this, their brothers, they know which buttons to push.

 

I agree Sam has said some things specifically to hit Dean where it hurts the most, I just don't happen to think Dean's intelligence is necessarily one of those things - in general. The incidence with the Walkman RF meter which is one of the main examples cited concerning this issue, for example, makes very little sense in terms of the tone of the rest of the episode in my opinion. Why is Sam even insulting Dean there for his innovation? What's the motivation for hurting him there? To me that whole exchange makes little sense, and is an example of the weird writing in that episode.* And I'm pretty sure in one of the episodes before this one, Sam is praising Dean and John for thinking up shotgun shells filled with salt to fight against ghosts, which is even less high tech.

 

Later in the episode when Dean is freaking out on the airplane, Sam is talking logically with Dean and fully expects Dean to be able to come through. He doesn't treat Dean like he's unintelligent there. I mean, maybe it is true that Sam thinks he's "smarter" than Dean - Sam did go to college, and worked hard, so I'm not going to entirely fault him for wanting to think he has some intelligence - but that doesn't stop Sam from looking to Dean when the chips are down and trusting Dean's instinct and experience enough to stake his life on Dean's decisions. In other words, the experience and intelligence that counts in their everyday life.

 

* Another example is the "concern" exchange where Sam tells Dean he appreciates his concern, and Dean says "Oh, I'm not concerned about you. It's your job to keep my ass alive, so I need you sharp." That didn't sound like something Dean would say to me, even only 4 episodes in. It just bugs me that that episode and writer, since he also wrote "Asylum," gets to have such a huge negative impact on Sam's personality down the road when those are the only two episodes that he wrote for the entire series.

 

I also am of the opinion that Dean's earlier teasing/ mockery of Sam was done specifically for the reason of pushing his buttons to get him out of the spiral he was in after Jess's death and not done to be cruel or condescending but to get him to laugh or fight back against, giving him a sense of control and normalcy.

 

I think RulerofallISurvey said best what I was trying to get across. I wasn't a younger sibling though, so couldn't explain it as well as she(?) did. (I also didn't tease my sister.)

 

I completely agree both brothers are dumbed down at various times as I said in the bunker thread too, I just think Dean get's the worst of it intellectually while Sam get's the worst of it physically, if that makes sense. I mean seriously someone explain to me how that annoying guy Cole got the jump on, knocked out, moved and tied an unconscious Sam who is like 8 or 9 in taller and however many lbs heavier. How would you even tie an unconscious person to a chair anyway regardless of size difference, it's basically dead weight. Bah

 

Oh, I know. That was ridiculous. So was that hostage situation in "As Time Goes By" with Sam the meek and compliant hostage just quietly and obediently letting himself be exchanged for ransom. I second your "bah."

 

 

Speaking as the younger sibling of an older brother who LOVED to 'tease' me (he's 6 years older) I completely agree with the "in the eyes of the one being teased" bit.  I got teased about my hair (red.  He's blonde).  My weight (not overweight, but I was scrawny - wish I still was.  Ha!) and even being flat chested (when I was 10 no less.  So, of course I was, and pointed that out to him.  The girls he was dating were 16 and filling out.  But did that stop him?  No.)  So, yeah, I get what you're saying about in the eyes of the one being teased, but on the other hand, when it goes too far, it goes too far.  And  - even now as an adult - I understand that while maybe he didn't do it to really hurt, it sure didn't seem to come from a place of affection, either.  In my case, it seems like it was more a way to laud power over me.  More like to not-so-subtly demonstrate that he was older and therefore "the boss".  If that make sense.  I wish I could explain it better.  

 

Speaking from my own experience again, I disagree with this.  Because my older brother relentlessly 'teased' me even when I told him to stop, I had to learn to ignore it and act like it didn't bother me, even though it did.  Because if I didn't ignore him and act like it didn't bother me, the teasing just got worse.  This is how I interpret Sam's reactions, or non-reactions, to Dean's comments.

 

I thought that you explained it well. And I agree with you that that was likely how Sam often took it. I think Sam's reaction to Dean's "I'm older so that means I'm always right," was kind of telling in that regard, too because Sam was quite annoyed, but didn't want to make an issue of it. And pushing it would likely get Sam a "well, I was only kidding. Geesh." Which speaking from experience (in school), in some ways makes it almost worse, because then you want to say "well just don't," which likely won't get you anywhere anyway, and then also somehow shifts the blame onto you for just being "too sensitive."

 

Yeah, that was a nasty bit from Sam.  I took it as belittling.

 

I agree, but I'm just not sure why it was even in there. I never really liked that episode.

 

IMO, Sam, on the other hand, wasn't particularly sensitive about being called "Samantha" (that was something that had carried over from childhood) or being teased about his awkwardness around women so it wasn't hurtful.  Annoying, maybe, but not hurtful. 

 

I agree with RulerofallISurvey on this one. A good example of Sam "shrugging it off" can be seen in "Abandon All Hope" after Dean's "Better late than never" tease. Sam may sound "cool with it," but he's actually hurt.

 

 

I do think Dean got over his insecurity about his intelligence later (most recently in Baby, when Sam expressed surprise that Dean knew the source of the quote, Dean shrugged it off with a "hey, I read!" comment that didn't seem hurt or defensive.)  But the fact that Sam *did* seem surprised is, well, kind of annoying after all this time.

 

That comment from Sam annoyed me, because as you and others have pointed out, Dean has been shown to do research.  So of course he reads and is intelligent. 

 

In that one particular incidence, I don't blame Sam for looking surprised, because it wasn't really an intelligence issue (in my opinion) as much as a source issue. Dean was referencing Aesop's Fables which are mostly known as children's literature. Not only do I doubt John would've read Sam and Dean bedtime stories from Aesop's Fables, but even if he had, how would Dean remember that Aesop was the one who illustrated this concept? And why would Dean read them later on his own, considering that they are mostly known as children's literature? We also know how Dean feels about fairy tales in general. It is possible that they were covered in school, but Dean wasn't all that attached to school once he started hunting, so it would surprise me, too, if he remembered that. (I didn't remember that, and I read all those types of things when I was a kid.) Sam, on the other hand, might've read these in college for some reason - a class on Greek and Roman literature or something - or because he at one point seemed to have a thing for that kind of lore (fairy tales and such).

 

That's not even including that it's a quote that mentions God helping people, and Sam is very aware of how Dean feels about that subject, too, so that Dean would know the origin of a quote from either children's or Greek literature which eventually transformed into a quote mentioning God helping people, something Sam knows Dean doesn't believe (and Sam himself didn't used to believe either circa season 5), to me Sam's surprise isn't that unbelievable.

 

If Sam gave Dean a surprised look concerning some basic literary reference, that might be different, but not in this case, because I can see why Sam would be surprised - especially after Dean scoffing at Sam's fairy tale knowledge and Dean's (all too understandable) opinions on God. But I understand that opinions vary.

 

Edited to add:

 

But that's not the only time in the episode he question's Dean's intellect or mocks it in some way. Later in the episode, Sam has  the plan to find out if the flight attendant is possessed:

 

Sam: She'll react to the name of God

Dean: Oh. Nice.

Sam: "Say it in Latin"

Dean: "I know"

Sam: "In Latin it's Christo"

Dean: "Dude, I KNOW, I'm not an idiot"

 

 

But notice in that dialogue Dean says "Oh. Nice." as in he didn't know about that little trick. And Dean was freaking out. Was Sam a little jerky for reminding him - yes, but Dean was also under stress, so better safe than sorry, in my opinion and have your brother be a little angry than maybe forget due to his nerves.

 

As for Sam pushing him out of the way to search the internet, to me that was a little brother "why do you always get to be in charge?" move. Remember by this time we'd gotten Dean pushing buttons with "Driver picks the music..." (with the understanding that usually Dean is the driver) and also, I think, "I'm the oldest, so that means I'm always right." Only annoying teasing? Maybe so, but keep poking the bear and eventually the bear's going to get pissed off. It's then kind of ingenuous to wonder "hmm I wonder why he's all annoyed all of a sudden?"*

 

But again, I dislike "Phantom Traveler" and do not think it was indicative of how Sam acted later... except maybe in "Asylum" - the other episode by this writer. So I'm glad that those were the only episodes he wrote, because I think he had some issues with Sam as a character.

 

* Dean gets to do a lot of things in the name of teasing in the early episodes and not get called on it, because it's funny and so we forgive him. Like that Blue Oyster Cult song he blared to wake Sam up during "Hell House" - kind of insensitive, Dean, but it was funny, so it's not thought of as insensitive. Sam doesn't get to be the "funny" brother very often, so he doesn't get to get away with things like that.

 

Anyway fast forward to s8 when Dean gets out of Purgatory. Sam belittles/mocks Dean for downloading an app. Again, it's not the words but the tone with which Sam speaks those words and the face acting that show's Sam being an asshole. He mocked Dean for loving having a cheeseburger again. "It's just a cheeseburger, dude".  (EMPATHY SAM!! EMPATHY.) In both s1 and s8, IMO it's just passive-aggressive shit from Sam because Dean had come back into his life and dragged him back to a life he doesn't really want.

 

The first half of season 8 was a lot about assassinating Sam's character, in my opinion. I do not agree with Aeryn13's assertion above that the audience is supposed to side with Sam, nor am I yet convinced that it was some mistaken attempt to make Sam look "mature." If anything, I think it was done for brotherly angst purposes, and the writers would rather make Sam look like a jerk, so the audience would think "poor Dean" and there would be some "tension" of "oooh will Dean choose Benny instead?" It really annoys me that once again Sam's character is tarnished for "angst" (since Sam in season 8 was acting nothing, in my opinion, like Sam from season 7 there) and then Sam has to spend season(s) crawling his way back, usually to have it happen again to start the slow climb back again. And then Sam is generally remembered for these few bad times and not the many many times he's good to Dean. It kind of sucks, in my opinion.

Edited April 25, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

I started a long answer to this a few hours ago and got interrupted, so hopefully I can shorten it a bit now...

Speaking as the younger sibling of an older brother who LOVED to 'tease' me (he's 6 years older) I completely agree with the "in the eyes of the one being teased" bit.  I got teased about my hair (red.  He's blonde).  My weight (not overweight, but I was scrawny - wish I still was.  Ha!) and even being flat chested (when I was 10 no less.  So, of course I was, and pointed that out to him.  The girls he was dating were 16 and filling out.  But did that stop him?  No.)  So, yeah, I get what you're saying about in the eyes of the one being teased, but on the other hand, when it goes too far, it goes too far.  And  - even now as an adult - I understand that while maybe he didn't do it to really hurt, it sure didn't seem to come from a place of affection, either.  In my case, it seems like it was more a way to laud power over me.  More like to not-so-subtly demonstrate that he was older and therefore "the boss".  If that make sense.  I wish I could explain it better.   

 

 

 

Speaking from my own experience again, I disagree with this.  Because my older brother relentlessly 'teased' me even when I told him to stop, I had to learn to ignore it and act like it didn't bother me, even though it did.  Because if I didn't ignore him and act like it didn't bother me, the teasing just got worse.  This is how I interpret Sam's reactions, or non-reactions, to Dean's comments.

 

 

 

About teasing going too far (and not stopping even if it does bother you...) that definitely goes on, especially with siblings.  But a lot also depends, I think, on the relationship to start with.  I am a younger sister, and my sister and I are pretty much polar opposites in everything.  She also teased/mocked me, but (most of the time) it wasn’t necessarily to be mean—sometimes she thought it was funny and didn’t expect me to take it badly (because she expected me to react just like her); sometimes she was annoyed at me and said mean things that she promptly forgot but I took to heart, and sometimes, yes, she was really mad and said things that, I think, appalled even her, but couldn’t bring herself to take back (I compare it to Sam in The Purge). It doesn't mean that I wasn't hurt at the time, but as I got older I could understand it a little better.

 

Yes, there are some people who deliberately choose to torment their siblings—probably, as you said, to make themselves feel more important. But IMO, Dean had way too much invested in “protecting Sammy” to want to hurt him deliberately, as least when they were young.  I’m pretty sure if Sam showed that something hurt him Dean would immediately stop.  (Remember way back in season 1 when Dean first called Sam a freak and Sam called him on it, Dean backed off and said “we’re both freaks” because he could see that it bothered Sam.) 

 

I know it’s JMO, but Sam seemed more annoyed (or sometimes amused) at Dean’s teasing about women/Samantha than upset and hiding it.  It seemed to me that it was something he was used to (like being called “Sammy” no matter how many times he corrected it) and it was kind of comforting, especially (as someone said above) during the time right after Jessica’s death.  But I can understand why, with your family history, you might interpret it differently.  

 

I’m not so sure of Sam’s motives for teasing/mocking Dean, and not because he’s less sensitive or more arrogant or any other negative reason, though his surprise that Dean was so upset at the Flagstaff incident does make me think that he was a little self-involved and not paying much attention to Dean’s feelings at the time. 

 

As a younger sister, I spent a lot of time trying to get out of my sister’s shadow, and one of the ways I did that was to *not* compete with her in the things she excelled in, but find my own.  So I can see Sam doing the same thing—he felt he’d never be as good as Dean in the things their dad wanted—fighting, tactics, weapons—so he took pride in being the researcher/”intelligent” one.  And just like I got upset when my sister proved to be good at one of my specialties, I can see Sam (consciously or not) feeling threatened when Dean says/does something that shows he is also intelligent/good at research and wanting to downplay it or “mock” him.  Again, he probably wasn’t even aware that he was hurting Dean in the process—he was just protecting his own sense of importance.  That's perfectly human, I think, and especially with younger siblings.

 

I think they've both outgrown being hurt at being teased (or at least, gotten a better perspective to recognize affection in whatever form); but there are still bitter feelings underneath that come out sometimes in supposedly light comments, from both of them.  That's also being human.

 

 

 

[trxr4kids]

Have we ever once seen a flashback to childhood of Dean teasing Sam, no. Any teasing we've seen has been done by adult Dean to adult Sam. I stand by my assessment that Dean did that early seasons teasing to try to break through Sam's grief and budding obsession not because he was insensitive or that it was a childhood pattern, everything we've seen actually paints Dean as caring and protective during those years.

Edited April 25, 2016 by trxr4kids

[ahrtee]

Have we ever once seen a flashback to childhood of Dean teasing Sam, no. Any teasing we've seen has been done by adult Dean to adult Sam. I stand by my assessment that Dean did that early seasons teasing to try to break through Sam's grief and budding obsession not because he was insensitive or that it was a childhood pattern, everything we've seen actually paints Dean as caring and protective during those years.

Well, to be honest, in A Very SPN Christmas, Dean was pretty snarky to Sam in answering his questions, as in "Why do we move all the time?" "Because everywhere we go people get tired of your face."  Sam didn't seem too upset by that, though.

[catrox14]

 

eason 8 was acting nothing, in my opinion, like Sam from season 7 there) and then Sam has to spend season(s) crawling his way back, usually to have it happen again to start the slow climb back again. And then Sam is generally remembered for these few bad times and not the many many times he's good to Dean. It kind of sucks, in my opinion.

 

Since we were discussing how intelligence/intellect is shown with Dean and Sam, I was trying to limit my comments to that aspect of their relationship. I mentioned Dean's remarks about Sam sleeping because it was a way for me to think about why Sam might be acting that way towards Dean re the intelligence factor. 

 

 

But notice in that dialogue Dean says "Oh. Nice." as in he didn't know about that little trick. And Dean was freaking out. Was Sam a little jerky for reminding him - yes, but Dean was also under stress, so better safe than sorry, in my opinion and have your brother be a little angry than maybe forget due to his nerves.

 

Sam having the idea doesn't mean that Dean didn't know how to properly execute the idea especially since Dean knew exactly what Sam meant as soon as he voiced the idea.

 

Three times in the first 4 episodes of the show Sam is going after Dean's intellect in some way.  It could be more but I can't remember much about  Wendigo. In Dead in the Water, Sam was teasing Dean about liking kids, I don't think there were any digs at his intellect. And  over the course of 11 years, I feel like it happens often enough that I consider it a character trait for Sam and I expect I'll see it again in s12.

[trxr4kids]

Well, to be honest, in A Very SPN Christmas, Dean was pretty snarky to Sam in answering his questions, as in "Why do we move all the time?" "Because everywhere we go people get tired of your face."  Sam didn't seem too upset by that, though.

Hmm, I only saw that ep when it originally aired, so my bad for forgetting. I don't feel like rewatching either so I have no explanation but it sounds like Dean was deflecting like always and possibly trying to focus Sam's irritation on him and not their dad. Not that Sam could have known that if it were true so it might have hurt his feelings. Isn't that the episode where he gives him the amulet? If it is a deflection obviously it didn't work.

Edited April 25, 2016 by trxr4kids

[ahrtee]

Hmm, I only saw that ep when it originally aired, so my bad for forgetting. I don't feel like rewatching either so I have no explanation but it sounds like Dean was deflecting like always and possibly trying to focus Sam's irritation on him and not their dad. Not that Sam could have known that if it were true so it might have hurt his feelings. Isn't that the episode where he gives him the amulet? If it is a deflection obviously it didn't work.

Yeah, it's the one where Sam gave Dean the amulet.  And Sam just shrugged off Dean's comment and kept asking questions, which is why I assumed Sam wasn't bothered by Dean's snark.  He knew and trusted that Dean really did love him, so snarky comments and/or teasing weren't as threatening/hurtful.  JMO, of course.

[catrox14]

Hmm, I only saw that ep when it originally aired, so my bad for forgetting. I don't feel like rewatching either so I have no explanation but it sounds like Dean was deflecting like always and possibly trying to focus Sam's irritation on him and not their dad. Not that Sam could have known that if it were true so it might have hurt his feelings. Isn't that the episode where he gives him the amulet? If it is a deflection obviously it didn't work.

 

 I agree with this. I think this was Dean deflecting so that Sam would stop asking questions that Dean didn't want to answer.  I think the only time Dean was really mean to Sam when they were kids, that I can remember clearly was when they fought about the spaghettios. And that wasn't really "mean" but Dean was frustrated because he was kid trying to take care of a kid. 

 

Heck, IIRC Dean didn't even ignore Sam when they were in the same high school which is classic sibling behavior in school.

Edited April 25, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

I actually thought Sam was whiny about the spaghettios, he asked for them and got them, then changed his mind and Dean gave in despite being annoyed which is typical imo of an older/ younger sibling dynamic involving caretaking. Sam then offered up the toy which was sweet. I can't really think too much on this episode because it makes my head hurt. For example: If that was the last of the Lucky Charms what were they gonna have for breakfast if John hadn't got back? If Dean new John was gonna be back why on earth would he risk getting caught out playing video games? Did John use them as bait? Was John seriously pissed at Dean for not taking a shot that wouldn't haven't hurt the striga but could've hurt Sam? Grrr

Edited April 25, 2016 by trxr4kids

[MysteryGuest]

I actually think the show does a great job, for the most part, in portraying the sibling relationship.  I know that Sam and Dean love each other, but they both also carry a lot of baggage from their childhoods, so I think when they tease and/or rag on each other some of that baggage comes though.  For example, I do think Dean is sensitive about the fact that he didn't finish high school, while Sam went to college.  I think he's proud of him, jealous of him and resentful of him, all at the same time.  

 

I know from my own experiences with my siblings, sometimes the teasing goes a bit too far and crosses over into hurtful, and this can be unintentional or deliberate depending on about a thousand different variables.  

[catrox14]

I actually thought Sam was whiny about the spaghettios, he asked for them and got them, then changed his mind and Dean gave in despite being annoyed which is typical imo of an older/ younger sibling dynamic involving caretaking. Sam then offered up the toy which was sweet. I can't really think too much on this episode because it makes my head hurt. For example: If that was the last of the Lucky Charms what were they gonna have for breakfast if John hadn't got back? If Dean new John was gonna be back why on earth would he risk getting caught out playing video games? Did John use them as bait? Was John seriously pissed at Dean for not taking a shot that wouldn't haven't hurt the striga but could've hurt Sam? Grrr

 

Dean didn't plan very well because he was a frustrated 9 year old re Lucky Charms. Maybe Dean would have stolen some food since we know that's what he got sent to the boys home for.

 

I'm not un-convinced that John didn't use them as bait. I don't think John thought Dean would ever act like a normal kid and lose track of time. Hell I lose track of time just being this darn website LOL. 

 

Much easier for John to blame Dean than take responsibility for a shitty plan OR for being late getting home if it was a trap. 

 

John dun fucked up.

[catrox14]

 

For example, I do think Dean is sensitive about the fact that he didn't finish high school, while Sam went to college.  I think he's proud of him, jealous of him and resentful of him, all at the same time.

 

Dean did manage to get his GED though so I think that might have helped smooth some of that out. Also, when did Dean find the time to study for his GED?  I think it still stings when Sam disregards his intellect even jokingly.

 

I probably get more protective of Dean on the intelligence thing because I have spent my entire fucking life being made to feel like I am less than intellectually because I am a blonde woman. The shit people assume about you because of how you look is unrelenting. It sucks. So when I see Dean's own brother go after his intellect I really bristle. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Since we were discussing how intelligence/intellect is shown with Dean and Sam, I was trying to limit my comments to that aspect of their relationship. I mentioned Dean's remarks about Sam sleeping because it was a way for me to think about why Sam might be acting that way towards Dean re the intelligence factor.

 

Sorry if I went off topic too much. It is however, a limited subject where Sam is at a distinct disadvantage, because as I mention, in general, his transgressions in that area are never forgotten. I do, however, think I also gave a reason for why Sam might be "picking back." ahrtee's point is also a good one.

 

Sam having the idea doesn't mean that Dean didn't know how to properly execute the idea especially since Dean knew exactly what Sam meant as soon as he voiced the idea.

 

I might have misinterpreted. I thought that Dean's tone meant that he wasn't aware of that tactic - which interestingly was never brought up again (again, not a fan of this episode) - so Sam explained it to him in detail just to be sure, because as I said, Dean was nervous due to the flying.

 

Three times in the first 4 episodes of the show Sam is going after Dean's intellect in some way.  It could be more but I can't remember much about  Wendigo. In Dead in the Water, Sam was teasing Dean about liking kids, I don't think there were any digs at his intellect. And  over the course of 11 years, I feel like it happens often enough that I consider it a character trait for Sam and I expect I'll see it again in s12.

 

Whereas I think that Sam grew out of it a long time ago until they regressed him (in a lot of ways), in my opinion, in season 8. I do not count Sam's sometimes surprise that Dean read things like Kurt Vonnegut in the earlier years, because Dean is more apt to obfuscate that kind of thing about himself - sometimes on purpose I think (in an almost Columbo kind of way.) It would be like Dean being surprised if Sam suddenly knew how to fix a car - in other words I wouldn't blame him, because that's not known to be a Sam thing. Dean doesn't go around spouting facts and literature things and sometimes calls Sam a nerd when Sam does, so that Sam would be surprised sometimes doesn't really bother me.

 

By season 7,  Sam wasn't even considered brainy anymore - Bobby's "aim lower" comment, and Sam confusing Metatron for Megatron, for example - so I'm not even sure Sam had a "thing" anymore after that

 

I also thought that I gave a pretty good explanation for the Aesop thing, so miles obviously vary.

 

 I agree with this. I think this was Dean deflecting so that Sam would stop asking questions that Dean didn't want to answer.  I think the only time Dean was really mean to Sam when they were kids, that I can remember clearly was when they fought about the spaghettios. And that wasn't really "mean" but Dean was frustrated because he was kid trying to take care of a kid.

 

Dean did yell at Sam to shut up and never talk about mom again in the Christmas episode for asking about her, and then he stormed out - which is why/how Sam got into John's journal to find out the answers to the questions he had - but I agree that part of that was Dean's frustration at having to take care of Sam. That wasn't Sam's fault, however, so it was a little bit harsh on Sam.

[MysteryGuest]

Speaking of Dean's time in reform school, I just watched that episode last night and it made me sad.  Dean so wanted to have the normal life there for a bit.  He wanted to go to that dance with his girlfriend and do all of the things that he'd never been allowed to do living with John.  My heart broke for him when John showed up to get him, and then again when he looked out the window and saw Sam.  As much as he'd love to chuck the whole thing, there was no way he would ever abandon Sam.  

[trxr4kids]

 

 

Dean did yell at Sam to shut up and never talk about mom again in the Christmas episode for asking about her, and then he stormed out - which is why/how Sam got into John's journal to find out the answers to the questions he had - but I agree that part of that was Dean's frustration at having to take care of Sam. That wasn't Sam's fault, however, so it was a little bit harsh on Sam.

I just had to look up who wrote A Very Supernatural Christmas after your comments on Phantom Traveler and Asylum in regards Sam's characterization and color me not at all surprised it was Jeremy Carver. The single childhood flashback wherein Dean doesn't act protective, caring and selfless towards Sam, the episode I had almost completely forgotten about was written by Carver, that explains a lot.

[catrox14]

Interestingly, Richard Hatem, wrote only 2 episodes,  Phantom Traveler & Asylum but he was a consulting producer throughout s1 and then it looks like he went on to The Lost Room, The Dead Zone, The Secret Circle, Grimm, Once Upon a Time in Wonderland and Witches of East End.

 

- Devil's Trap (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Salvation (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Dead Man's Blood (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Provenance (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Something Wicked (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Hell House (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Shadow (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- The Benders (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Nightmare (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Route 666 (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Faith (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Scarecrow (2006) ... (co-executive producer)
- Asylum (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Home (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Bugs (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Hook Man (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Skin (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Bloody Mary (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Phantom Traveler (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Dead in the Water (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Wendigo (2005) ... (co-executive producer)
- Pilot (2005) ... (co-executive producer - uncredited)

[ahrtee]

 

Dean did yell at Sam to shut up and never talk about mom again in the Christmas episode for asking about her, and then he stormed out - which is why/how Sam got into John's journal to find out the answers to the questions he had - but I agree that part of that was Dean's frustration at having to take care of Sam. That wasn't Sam's fault, however, so it was a little bit harsh on Sam.

Dean also slammed Sam up against the wall (well, bridge) back in the pilot and told him not to talk about Mom, so it was well established that it was a subject they never, ever were supposed to touch.  I think this was just a callback, the same way the questions Sam was asking  here were the ones Dean mentioned in AHBL2.  Just Carver trying to prove he'd seen the previous eps, maybe.

Edited April 26, 2016 by ahrtee

[trxr4kids]

Dean also slammed Sam up against the wall (well, bridge) back in the pilot and told him not to talk about Mom, so it was well established that it was a subject they never, ever were supposed to touch.  I think this was just a callback, the same way the questions Sam was asking  here were the ones Dean mentioned in AHBL2.  Just Carver trying to prove he'd seen the previous eps, maybe.

I think it's pretty established that as adults they've gotten physical and have hit below the belt verbally as well, my point was that it made sense to me that Carver wrote an episode that IMO contradicts Dean's behavior in every other childhood flashback we've seen. MMV