All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

So, I was watching "Devil May Care" and Dean was snarky and funny.  Jensen looked a bit heavier too. Between this episode and 9.23 finale he looks like he lost about 10 lbs.  At one point Dean says about Crowley that 'he's the junk in my trunk" which was funny at the time.

 

 :(.  Forever sad. 

[DittyDotDot]

Jensen did an interview where he said that the Mark Of Cain story had him doing more crunches at lunch time since Dean was supposed to be all roided up, so he may have lost some weight in the process. It could have just been the stress of getting to the end of a long season though also.

[catrox14]

I thought Jensen was almost too thin by the end of the season. So looking back at early episodes from s9, and knowing the MoC storyline I'm wondering if it was an intentional choice vs just the stress of the long season.

 

Also, he was doing ab work and we didn't get to see it AT ALL, not even in the shower scene?  Well fuck you show! Just fuck you! :)

[trxr4kids]

 

I'm a big sister, but I could see similar things in my sister when we were growing up (and when you're together constantly as you said it's hard to break those kinds of patterns). It's tough and frustrating being the younger one and always "wrong" (and this show seems to like making Sam "wrong" and feeding his insecurities) and feeling like you're always in a sibling's shadow. I see Sam often as just wishing someone would see his side (even in season 4 this was a big part of it. Much of his argument in "When the Levee Breaks" was "please just this one time trust me and back me up."

The thing is, I'm a little sister coincidently 4 years younger. So I see it on the flipside, meaning that I saw my sib take blame for crap I did and didn't care because she was supposed to be in charge and I felt entitled to her care. It wasn't until I was 12 or 13 that I got a clue. Obviously there's more to it than that but this is where my probably jaded perspective comes from. Sam should have grown up or got a clue a long damn time ago.

[AwesomO4000]

Sam should have grown up or got a clue a long damn time ago.

 

In my opinion, I think that for the most part Sam had. For me "Fallen idols" is the exception, since Sam took responsibility for his choices in multiple episodes both before and after that episode, and it was his main motivation for his actions in "Swan Song" - to fix what he (Sam) broke as Sam put it. Sam also addresed it more than once in season 7 when he was trying to get Dean to take care of himself, but in a way Dean perpetuates it, because being concerned about/taking care of Sam means that he doesn't have to address his own problems. The conversation at the end of "Season 7: Time for a Wedding" is a good example. Sam seems hopeful about Dean taking care of himself for once and not worrying so much about Sam, but Dean looks like he doesn't want to think about that and would much rather keep things status quo. So for me there's some reluctance on both sides at various times to give up this dynamic.

 

In some ways, I'm reminded of the intentionally humorous "My Name is Earl" when due to circumstances brother Randy ends up on his own and actually getting a "Randy" of his own that he has to look after. Randy is perfectly capable of doing so, and in some ways likes it, but at the same time, he misses his big brother taking care of him, and similarly Earl also misses having Randy to take care of. And in the end, they end up back together again. (That show was so messed up, but also so funny.)

 

Brought over from the Unpopular Opinions thread:

I meant a brotherly scene that didn`t make me go "I hate your relationship and you are THE worst people ever to be around each other". They used to have those. Yet I can`t recall even one in the last few years. I mean, there were ones I outright hated like in Fallen Crapols, Point of No Return, Suck Song or the Season 8 Finale. Vile all around. But more than that, they didn`t have a single moment where I enjoyed them as brothers like in Seasons 1 and 2.

 

Although I disagree about "Point of No Return" since I liked that episode, I can think of three important and/or memorable (to me anyway) brotherly moments off the top of my head from later seasons: The small moment at the end of "Mannequin 3: The Reckoning" where Sam assures Dean that they do sometimes do good things by hunting and he makes sure Dean knows he's grateful that Dean saved him from hell. The end of "Plucky Pennywhistle..." where the guys both just enjoy a good laugh and there's a giant slinky. And the "stone one" scene near the end of "Hello, Cruel World" where Dean brings Sam out of his descent into madness by reminding him that Dean's "the only one who can legitimately kick [his] ass in real time" and shows Sam that they (he and Sam) are what is real. The cut/scar on Sam’s hand represents – to me – how Dean took care of him (Sam) and how Sam recognized that and built on it as his first link to coming back to reality and rejected the Lucifer in his head trying to tell Sam that he (Lucifer) was the only one who understood him, was there for him, etc. So for me, that was a very nice and important brotherly moment that the writers actually remembered and referenced throughout the season.

 

There are few samller moments: an "unofficial" added DVD scene that was at the end of "Time After Time...", (they cut it for time), the scene at the end of "Season 7, Time for a Wedding," with the good-natured ribbing and where Sam acknowledges how Dean has taken care of him for so long, and he hopes Dean will now take care of himself. I also liked the end of "The Mentalists."

 

Season 5 was odd, in that it had a few for me, but they were somewhat tainted by the miscommunication between the brothers, although the scene where Sam tells Dean that he is feeling the effects of Famine in "My Bloody Valentine" is one for me. On Sam's side, Sam is able to admit to Dean that he needs Dean's help, and has Dean lock him down, and then tells him to be careful, but his face shows that he has confidence that Dean will stop Famine. And on Dean's side is the desperate concern for Sam and him wanting Castiel to get Sam out of there, and his care as he leaves Sam. So that one qualifies for me at least as another brotherly moment.

 

But two of my favorite brother moments were in season 3: The end of "A Very Supernatural Christmas and the end of "Mystery Spot." That last one is actually my favorite hug between the brothers.

Edited June 4, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[trxr4kids]

 

So for me there's some reluctance on both sides at various times to give up this dynamic.

As I said or loosely stated my totally biased opinion is that Sam is a perpetual teenager and thus Dean feels the obligation to parent him as he did during his own adolescence.

 

 

They used to have those. Yet I can`t recall even one in the last few years

 Me either.

Edited June 4, 2014 by trxr4kids

[ElleryAnne]

So for me there's some reluctance on both sides at various times to give up this dynamic.

 

 

I figure they fall into what's comfortable for them both, since it's practically the only thing in their universe that can be counted on.

[AwesomO4000]

As I said or loosely stated my totally biased opinion is that Sam is a perpetual teenager and thus Dean feels the obligation to parent him as he did in during own adolescence.

 

If Dean doesn't want to anymore, he's gotta kick the baby bird out of the nest, throw the free-loading kid out of the house, etc. I'm potentially talking out of my butt here - since I've never been a real parent, only a psuedo one - but I thought the idea of a parent was to raise a kid who will eventually take care of themselves, and if that means throwing his/her butt out in the deep end at some point, that's what you do. Holding on, especially when they are potentially ready to move on as I think Sam was at the beginning of this season - is not doing that. And now with the finale this season, both brothers are now guilty of holding on too tightly, so we've increased the co-dependency. Yay?

[trxr4kids]

 

If Dean doesn't want to anymore, he's gotta kick the baby bird out of the nest, throw the free-loading kid out of the house, etc. I'm potentially talking out of my butt here - since I've never been a real parent, only a psuedo one - but I thought the idea of a parent was to raise a kid who will eventually take care of themselves, and if that means throwing his/her butt out in the deep end at some point, that's what you do

 

The problem with this is that Dean was a child raising a child so he didn't have any adult expectations or goals when it came to Sam. Likely his only hope as a child and adolescent was to keep Sam safe however possible. Now we have two grown ass men still acting out childhood behaviors, IMO.

[catrox14]

Watching "Devil May Care".  You know, after having seen all of s9 and watching this in retrospect...HOLY SHIT! This episode really laid all the groundwork for Dean's ultimate outcome of the season even more than the actual deal he made with Ezekiel to possess Sam. I think now in retrospect, Dean's and Crowley's motivations for doing what they did were much more personal than for the greater good or greater bad. I'll explain why later.

 

That said, this was still a bit of a frustrating episode.  It really had some really great elements and then a whole big distracting can of random chick in Daisy Duke attire that was trying to be a tough chick hunter. And it was so out of place with the rest of the episode. Never mind that Dean would give his keys over to a random hunter that he didn't know! WTF? If that had happened after Dean took on the MoC I would have blamed it on that. I get that he was trying to protect them but giving the keys to Baby to not!Daisy Duke? If Dean and Sam had both died Baby would have been living with this random chick. BAH. That is the most unbelievable moment of Supernatural EVER!

 

I'll focus on the great stuff:  

 

That opening shot of Dean laying on the picnic table was gorgeous and reminded me of when the show really knew how to film the boys, especially Dean. The natural light, his freckles, Sam's beautiful greenish-bluish eyes and wonderful dimples.  Dean IMO as long been filmed in a way that IMO is very male gazey.  What I mean is that he is sort of objectified and filmed almost like a woman might be. Kim Manners was the best with this type of direction.

 

I loved Dean's slow burn of guilt, confusion and the gnawing feeling I think he had that he really fucked up this time with Sam and notEzekiel. He was really flummoxed as to how to deal with notEzekiel.

 

"Zeke? I'm gonna call you Zeke" and "Nice Shot, Katniss"  made me laugh harder than they should have but that's just down to Jensen's typically flawness line readings.  Funny stuff there.

 

Speaking of filming Dean like a woman, he was also abused and taunted like a man typically does with a woman in these situations by Abaddon. She was was absolutely threatening him with an overwhelming sexually violent tone. Running her fingers through his hair, pulling his shirt open to reveal his tattoo all while he's on he's knees at her mercy.  Man upon rewatch that is super disturbing. I'm fairly well convinced that sexual torture was part of Dean's experience in Hell with Alastair. So I think this really was triggery for Dean remembering back to his time in the pit :(.  

 

I think Dean was as terrified of Abaddon as he was Alastair and in retrospect I think that is also partly why Dean was so willing to drop looking for Gadreel and turn his attention to Abaddon in First Born because IMO he's done with being anyone's pet and wanted to kill her before there was a chance that he would end up being abused and tortured and being made to torture all over again. Who knows how close he was to becoming a demon before Castiel raised him from Perdition. :(:(   (Oh Dean...you had no idea you were being so badly played./heart broken). Ugh.

 

Abaddon: "I appreciate you boys coming when I call. I think that's what I like most about you Winchesters. You're so obedient. And suicidally stupid. I like that, too." (all the while she is stroking his face and running her hands through his hair and being right up in his face).

DEAN: "Are we gonna fight or make out? 'Cause I'm getting some real mixed signals here."

 

Followed later on by :

Abbadon:  "Oh. Well... you know, I've loved this body since the moment I first saw it. You're the perfect vessel, Dean. You give a girl all sorts of nasty ideas. So go ahead and play hard to get, and I'll peel off this "no demons allowed" tattoo and blow smoke up your ass.

DEAN: Oh, well, I gotta tell you, between you and me, it is a horrow show up there.

ABADDON: It can get worse. Trust me. 'Cause once I'm on top, I'll make you watch. And I'll use your body. Have you ever felt an infant's blood drip down your chin? Or listened to a girl scream as you rip her guts out? Because you will. You and me, lover. We'll have a grand old time."  

 

I had forgotten just how awful and terrifying and creepy that scene really was. Jensen and Alaina were superb here.  She was disgusting and so good at being disgusting and Jensen was terrified of her despite his bravado. Again, it's all that wonderful face and voice control Jensen uses to convey what the dialogue doesn't or should be.  

 

I liked Jared as not!Ezekiel but I also loved seeing him be Original Recipe!Sammy here as well. I've had enough of alternate!Sams.  We've had Meg!Sam, Samifer, Soulless!Sam, Leviathan!Sam, MentallyUnstable!Sam, WallComingDown!Sam, Addict!Sam.  We need a new and improved OriginalRecipe!Sammy throughout all of s10 balance the demon!Dean(or as I call it "Fuck you show!Dean)arc.

 

I believe now that Crowley being Zero Dark Thirty'd by the boys was the impetus for his plan to turn Dean into Cain 2.0. I think he decided that since they wanted to cure him of his "demonity" he hatched the plan to "cure" Dean of his humanity. I no longer believe that it was about his battle with Abaddon. That was a nice gift with purchase, but not Crowley's primary motive, IMO

 

I think it was much more personal than that because Crowley was angry that the Winchesters were able to get to him like that and make him have 'feelings'  that he clearly no longer wants. And some of that probably includes some major guilt now that he never felt before.  So what better way to completely ruin the Winchesters than turning one of them into a demon. I wondered if at first it was Sam because Sam is the one that was trying to cure Crowley, but I think he decided to go after Dean because Dean is probably the more dangerous of the brothers. Or maybe turning Dean would be the ultimate gut punch to Sammy. As much as I love Mark Sheppard, Crowley needs to die in the most heinous way possible and it needs to be at the hands of either Sam or Dean or both. 

 

So yeah, if I ignore Daisy Duke, this was a good episode that set the table for the rest of the season. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by catrox14

[Tippi Blevins]

I was watching "The Monster at the End of This Book" the other day. How did Chuck not recognize Sam & Dean on sight when he's been having visions of them for years?

[supposebly]

Maybe in his visions, they looked like their book cover versions?

[DittyDotDot]

I've been wondering that for years, Tippi. I finally decided that his visions weren't photographic quality--probably grainy and low res--so he couldn't recognize faces, but knew what they were doing. Otherwise, it falls apart for me.

[Tippi Blevins]

That would have been awesome if they'd introduced themselves and Chuck went, "You can't be Sam and Dean; you're not shirtless!"

[Demented Daisy]

IMO, Chuck was pulling a long con; he knew exactly who they were, and what was going on, but couldn't let on that he knew too much, lest he give away his true identity.  ;-)

[catrox14]

I think I might be the only person in the world that isn't convinced Chuck was God. So that would explain why Chuck didn't actually know what they looked like :)

[Demented Daisy]

Not trying to be argumentative, but I really am curious.

 

I think I might be the only person in the world that isn't convinced Chuck was God.

 

 

So... who was he?  At the 2011 Jus in Bello Con, Rob Benedict said that after Swan Song, Kripke called him and asked how it felt to be God.

 

Sarah Gamble later said that they left it ambiguous on purpose, but I think she said that just so people would stop asking her when God was going to show up again.  *shrug*

[juppschmitz]

I've always refused to believe that Chuck was God, either.

 

I've seen theories that explained why the amulet didn't glow when Dean was near Chuck, but I don't even remember how that was explained away. I just prefer to think that the amulet actually would have worked like Cas said.

 

To me Chuck just was a regular prophet? And the visions were kind of ~fuzzy? He would have been a really puny God if he was God...

 

IDK.

[AwesomO4000]

I saw a theory that Chuck was taken up into heaven as some prophets are when they are done?

 

As for the visions... Maybe Chuck saw the visions through Sam's and Dean's eyes... as well as them being kinda fuzzy. Because that worked in my head until I realized that Sam and Dean would be seeing each other, so Chuck would've seen them that way.

[DittyDotDot]

I've accepted that Chuck is God because TPTB said so, but I never thought it made much sense, exactly. Monster At The End Of This Book, The End and The Real Ghostbusters doesn't really line up for me with Chuck being God. Why would God be hanging out with a bunch of refugees in The End? And why would God want to hang at a Supernatural convention and be trying to get it on with Becky? I'd think God would have better things to do--plus, the idea of God and Becky having sexy times just makes me laugh uncontrollably. However, I could accept that Chuck was God in Swan Song only, the way the narrative of that episode was structured makes sense, but still seems odd.

[catrox14]

Why I'm not convinced that Chuck is God:

 

That conversation could have been a joke between Kripke and Benedict and not actual confirmation that Chuck is God. I've yet to read any firm and specific confirmation by anyone attached to the show that says "Yes, Chuck is God".  They have offered opinion but no confirmation or they push it back to 'Do YOU think Chuck is God?".  I think it was intentionally ambiguous. I think they wanted to introduce the idea of the Winchesters possibly meeting God one day, but  I don't think that will ever come aside from MAYBE the actual real series finale, vs the "not!Finale" that was the mess called Swan Song. (And if God does show up it better be John Barrowman who says he wants to play God on SPN).

 

Joshua ( who I think was Jesus here, but that's highly debatable) said in "Dark Side of the Moon" that God no longer thinks the apocaplyse is his problem.  Assuming that Joshua is telling the truth that he listens to God, why would God!Chuck tell Joshua that the apocalypse is not his problem anymore and he won't intervene, when prophet!Chuck has been writing the Winchester Gospels that are all about pending apocalypse. 

 

I think Chuck was a human prophet and the light was possibly representing the 'God-in-all-of-us" vs the Supreme Benevolent/Malevolent All Knowing But Not Giving A Shit Overlord. IMO Chuck's job was to write the Winchester Gospel and since the apocalypse was stopped his job was done and he was ascended to Heaven as his reward for a job well done.

Edited June 7, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I've seen theories that explained why the amulet didn't glow when Dean was near Chuck

 

 

Because he's God and didn't want to be found.

 

Why would God be hanging out with a bunch of refugees in The End?

 

 

I thought that was all a construct by Zachariah, not an actual vision of the future.  Zach didn't know Chuck was God, so he included Chuck in the vision.

 

I think they wanted to introduce the idea of the Winchesters possibly meeting God one day

 

 

Kripke said that God would be a character in season 5.  

 

Joshua (snip) said in "Dark Side of the Moon" that God no longer thinks the apocaplyse is his problem.  Assuming that Joshua is telling the truth that he listens to God, why would God!Chuck tell Joshua that the apocalypse is not his problem anymore and he won't intervene

 

 

Because that particular Apocalypse was not of his making -- it was the angels.  As I always interpreted it, God wanted Sam and Dean to stop the Apocalypse, so he used reverse psychology on them.

 

He could have made a big speech about Sam and Dean representing humanity and proving to the angels that they are worthy of God's love; he could have said that he believed in Sam and Dean, that he knew they could stop it all; he could have said a dozen different things, but he needed Sam and Dean to stay angry.  So he told them exactly what they needed to hear, but in the opposite way they wanted.  

 

But, like I said, that's my interpretation and YMMV.

 

IMO Chuck's job was to write the Winchester Gospel and since the apocalypse was stopped his job was done and he was ascended to Heaven as his reward for a job well done.

 

 

I could accept that, except that it's the exact opposite of the position of the show re: humanity and the Apocalypse.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

 

Kripke said that God would be a character in season 5.

 

Kripke said a lot of things about Season 5 that I don't think translated quite like he said it would. So you'll forgive me if I take that with a big fat grain of 'okay Kripke, whatever you say".

 

But aside from that I would argue that God was a character throughout S5, it's just not one we actually met corporeally and was not in the form of Chuck. So I guess the question for me would be does a character have to be on screen for it to be a character as long as it part of the ongoing main narrative of the story?  I would say yes, God is still a character that we never met.  

 

But to your point about what Kripke said, I would counter offer the following from Sera Gamble wherein she says it was specifically left ambiguous . From this interview

I love a good God debate, so it's nice to hear we got one going this season. We purposely left a bit of room for interpretation. Although many of your readers probably just read that sentence and rolled their eyes because they feel like we made it all very obvious by the end.

 

Not all of Dark Side of the Moon was a construct from Zachariah though.  The boys did actually die and they did go to Heaven which was what each of them saw. Castiel told them Zachariah would be trying to hunt them down which is what all the light was.  He captured them and zapped them to his construct with not!Mary but Joshua broke through that to talk to the boys. I have no reason to believe that Joshua was lying about any of it.

 

IMO Chuck's job was to write the Winchester Gospel and since the apocalypse was stopped his job was done and he was ascended to Heaven as his reward for a job well done.

    

I could accept that, except that it's the exact opposite of the position of the show re: humanity and the Apocalypse.

 

My point was that Chuck fulfilled his job as a prophet regardless of the outcome of apocalypse or who started it.  There was nothing more for him to do since IMO he's not God.  His work was done.

 

 

Because that particular Apocalypse was not of his making -- it was the angels.  As I always interpreted it, God wanted Sam and Dean to stop the Apocalypse, so he used reverse psychology on them.

 

Maybe I'm not following you, but when would God have started to implement this reverse psychology plan for them to stop the apocalypse? Maybe I've missed a big narrative point but I can't separate out anything that has happened in the boys life from this arc because ALL of it goes back to Lucifer fucking with Sam's life all along.  If God knew this was going to happen all along and that horrible life was his effort at reverse psychology that's one messed up deity.

 

I tend to believe Joshua that God no longer cared what was happening on Earth. 

[Tippi Blevins]

Chuck as God doesn't make sense to me, either. If we only saw him when the Winchesters saw him, that'd be one thing. But we saw him when he was alone, having apparently painful visions when he didn't have to put on a show for anyone. 

 

Of course, just because it doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean I don't believe the show would insist that he is and always has been God. Show does a lot of crazy things that don't make sense to me. 

 

On other topics:

Dean IMO as long been filmed in a way that IMO is very male gazey.

 

 

I miss shots like this long, slow camera pan up his bod.

[Demented Daisy]

But to your point about what Kripke said, I would counter offer the following from Sera Gamble wherein she says it was specifically left ambiguous

 

 

Like you, I'll take that with a big, fat grain of salt. 

 

Not all of Dark Side of the Moon was a construct from Zachariah though.

 

 

I was talking about The End being a construct.  But that, like everything else on this show, is open to interpretation.

 

Maybe I'm not following you, but when would God have started to implement this reverse psychology plan for them to stop the apocalypse?

 

 

I was referring only to Joshua's statement about God not thinking that the Apocalypse is his problem.

 

Show does a lot of crazy things that don't make sense to me.

 

 

ITA.  The whole Apocalypse storyline doesn't make sense at all because angels don't have free will.  So the idea that a group of them could break away and start the Apocalypse is ridiculous, IMO.  

 

I don't think that Kripke's original intention was that Chuck be God.  But everything changed when they got the renewal.  

[supposebly]

I don't mind Chuck being the voice of god but him actually BE god doesn't really make much sense. Unless he became god at the end there. Of course it would explain how Castiel survived exploding that first time. I'm not terribly worried about it. I loved his character as is and whether he was god or not doesn't really worry me. What bugs me more is that they used that trope of the writer in the story with Metatron AGAIN and this time with such heavy-handedness. On top, it wasn't really necessary.

 

I've been watching season 2 and up to season 5, the 'special children' thing kinda worked until they decided it always had to be Sam and Dean and it's been foretold, blah, blah.

 

Ignoring that part, I kept thinking, Jake had a sister, was she supposed to go to hell for him and break to start the Apocalypse? Or would anyone do? Did the righteous man and the special child who kills Lilith have to be related?

Overall, I think the idea that it could only be Sam and Dean or their relatives was stupid. It takes away a lot of the free-will aspect and the struggle to come to terms with it.

Going by the pageant, it could have been any bloodline. Now I want Ava to kill Lilith. She might have done this much faster. Which begs the question, why YED thought Sam was his favorite. Considering how easy Ava turned within a few months, this could have been done much faster.

Edited June 8, 2014 by supposebly

[catrox14]

 

I was referring only to Joshua's statement about God not thinking that the Apocalypse is his problem.

 

I'm still not seeing how that was reverse psychology though. 

 

I was talking about The End being a construct.  But that, like everything else on this show, is open to interpretation.

 

Oh sorry! I misunderstood. 

 

I guess I'm getting tripped up on the use of "construct" here (for my own usage too).  To me construct implies all of it is false.

 

I didnt think THE END was a Zachariah construct either. Dean thought it might be a trick but even in "It's a Terrible Life" that was real in that Zachariah plopped them into the middle of that other life without their memories but everything else was real. I thought it was the same  thing as Castiel sending Dean back to the past in "In The Beginning" 

I thought Zachariah was showing him what was actually going to happen if Dean refused to say yes. Zachariah was going to do something worse to Dean when Castiel zapped him away.

 

IMO, if Chuck was God  then in THE END,  he chose to let humanity suffer and he lived amongst them watching them kill each other because of Croatoan.  I have a hard time believing that Chuck!God didn't know he was God 5 years in the future. If that was Chuck!God...pretty awful deity IMO. Lucifer said it would end up in Detroit with Sam saying yes and that is what happened in spite of the boys choosing thei own destiny in THE END.

[Tippi Blevins]

I've been watching season 2 and up to season 5, the 'special children' thing kinda worked until they decided it always had to be Sam and Dean and it's been foretold, blah, blah.

I hated that. Everything with their parents being put together in order to produce them, and "it's your destiny!" and blah blah. Except then it turned out not to be Dean's destiny at all because of Adam subbing at the end, so... what? It all just seemed like a shoehorned mess. I wish the angels had just said, "You know what, we want it to be Sam and Dean because they are the hottest. There." 

[AwesomO4000]

Lucifer said it would end up in Detroit with Sam saying yes and that is what happened in spite of the boys choosing thei own destiny in THE END.

 

Although in "The End", it took longer for Sam to say "yes." According to the Dean of 2014, Sam supposedly "died" or lost the battle as he called it two years ago, so it was 3 years before Sam said "yes" in that timeline. That was one of those times I would have liked to have seen a little of Sam's point of view, because it really bugged me as to why Sam would say "yes" in the first place, and we never did find out.

 

Which begs the question, why YED thought Sam was his favorite.

 

For me, it all went back to Mary (and to a slightly lesser extent, John.) It had more to do with Sam being Mary's offsrping than anything else, I believe, since we found out in "In the Beginning" that Mary was the one who caught the YED's eye. So I think Sam was his "favorite" simply because of Mary. Maybe Ava, though more advanced, just wasn't a product of as satisfying a "deal" or her mother (or father) wasn't as interesting to him.

 

I can see the YED - as arrogant as he was - proud of the fact that he bagged himself a hunter to take his "deal," and that likely would've been more satisfying for him than just an ordinary deal, especially since there was the potential to corrupt the son of the man who had been trying to hunt him down for years. That's the kind of thing something evil like the YED would love to do. So for me, it was less about Sam himself and more about Mary and sticking it to his nemesis John.

 

The whole Apocalypse storyline doesn't make sense at all because angels don't have free will.

 

I think most angels don't exhibit free will per se, but maybe it's more like the Vulcans and their emotions than actually not having it entirely. Maybe free will is more something they aren't comfortable with or equipped to deal with. That and I don't think the higher up angels have as many hangups and that they (the higher ups) will be more likely to go ahead and make a free will decision. Gabriel for example decided to leave and Lucifer decided to rebel. To me it appeared that there were different "classes" of angel and the higher up the heirarchy, the more likely to have and/or want free will. Anna for example was the leader of her garrison and she decided in the end to fall. Castiel too was at first higher up in the chain of command until he started to side with humanity (especially Dean) too much and then got demoted.

 

That sort of makes sense to me, because the angel "leaders" would have to potentially make more decisions on the battlefield when demon emergencies arose, whereas for the "grunt" angels it would be more efficient if they were more inclined to follow the orders of their superiors. And so as God left and the chain of command broke down and got more splintered, those grunt angels had no clear leader to follow and clung to whoever provided the most stability that they seemed to need.

[catrox14]

Although in "The End", it took longer for Sam to say "yes." According to the Dean of 2014, Sam supposedly "died" or lost the battle as he called it two years ago, so it was 3 years before Sam said "yes" in that timeline. That was one of those times I would have liked to have seen a little of Sam's point of view, because it really bugged me as to why Sam would say "yes" in the first place, and we never did find out.

 

 

I though Samifer was referring to ending up in the apocalypse in August 2014 because Sam did say yes back in 2009/2010 in Swan Song and that FutureDean was talking about not seeing Sam between 2009 and 2014 which seems to match that timeline.

My head hurts. LOL

Edited June 8, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I thought future Dean said that he and Sam hadn't spoke for five years. I took it to mean that the phone call at the beginning of the episode, where Dean says they should pick different hemispheres and stay away from one another, was the last time they spoke. I'm not sure when Sam was supposed to have said "yes" in that timeline, but I also assumed it was 2010. That's the lesson that Dean learned, they needed to stick together and keep each other human.

 

I personally have always thought that The End future was NOT a construct of Zachariah's, otherwise the lesson Dean learned was for naught. I believe that Zachariah really threw him into the future assuming that Dean would see what Sam did and get on board with the angels. If that wasn't really the future then whatever Dean learned from it was false and I think the show would have capitalized on this. But hey, it's not like they really followed logic anymore by this time, so who knows.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm not sure when Sam was supposed to have said "yes" in that timeline, but I also assumed it was 2010.

 

That could very well be, because you're correct that the episode didn't specify. When I went back and looked I realized that it was the Croatoan virus that Dean mentioned started showing up in the major cities about two years ago, so I assumed that was when Lucifer took over Sam on that timeline - in other words once Lucifer took over Sam, he got the virus really going.

 

Oddly that was one thing that did differ from the two, because in the non-"The End" timeline, they were going to start the virus sooner, and Sam and Bobby stopped it - unless that also happened in the 2014 timeline (in other words Sam and Bobby stopped the virus then too) or Dean did. Otherwise I'm not sure why the Croatoan virus would take so long to hit the major cities if it got started back in 2010, since it was pretty virulent. It seems that it would've spread pretty soon after it got started.

 

But I think that is why I assumed that Lucifer took over Sam in 2012 in that timeline, but it could be he did take over at the usual time in Detroit and did other things before unleashing the virus. I thought that since Sam was immune, that once Lucifer took over Sam, he'd unleash the virus since he wouldn't have to worry about meatsuit Nick getting it and weakening himself further, but since Nick was already weakening, it could very well be he took over in 2010... now I, too, amd confused, since Sam in 2010 after stopping the Croatoan (if that hapened as it did in the real timeline) would have even less reason to say "yes."

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I assume that Sam didn't stop the Croatoan virus with in The End future. I thought one of those dreadful final season five episodes had them step up the production on the Croatoan virus, I seem to recall they were trying to get it out ahead of schedule or maybe it had something to do with Pestilence? I'm sorry I can't remember the details right now and I'm not inclined to look it up tonight.

 

Moving on...I've also always assumed, in The End future, that Sam found out about the rings and was trying to do what Team Free Will tried to do in the end--put Lucifer back in the box--and that's why he said yes. The difference being that Sam was alone, no one showed up to remind Sam of who he was, so he lost his battle with the Devil. But since Dean hadn't said yes, the big fight never happened and Lucifer just strolled around wearing Sam.

 

That's just my wack-a-do brain trying to make things work in hindsight, the show never really made much of this clear.

[AwesomO4000]

But if everything happened similarly except for Sam - the angels already had the Adam plan. In the future, all the angels left. Also Dean had War's ring, so Sam wouldn't have been able to get a hold of it, since he and Dean never talked again. So yeah... a mystery we won't be able to solve.

[DittyDotDot]

All very good points Awesom...I guess we'll never know.

[Demented Daisy]

I personally have always thought that The End future was NOT a construct of Zachariah's, otherwise the lesson Dean learned was for naught. I believe that Zachariah really threw him into the future assuming that Dean would see what Sam did and get on board with the angels. If that wasn't really the future then whatever Dean learned from it was false and I think the show would have capitalized on this. But hey, it's not like they really followed logic anymore by this time, so who knows.

 

 

I thought it was a construct because Dean didn't learn what Zachariah wanted him to learn -- namely, that Sam was going to say yes no matter what Dean does, so Dean better say yes to Michael.  (How many times did future Dean say that he wished he had said yes to Michael, that he called for the angels, wanting to say yes, but that they had left the planet?)  Instead, Dean took away from it that he and Sam are actually stronger together and that without each other, one or both would definitely say yes.  At least if they were together, they could fight together.

 

But like you said, who knows?

Edited June 9, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

I thought it was a construct because Dean didn't learn what Zachariah wanted him to learn -- namely, that Sam was going to say yes no matter what Dean does, so Dean better say yes to Michael.  (How many times did future Dean say that he wished he had said yes to Michael, that he called for the angels, wanting to say yes, but that they had left the planet?)  Instead, Dean took away from it that he and Sam are actually stronger together and that without each other, one or both would definitely say yes.  At least if they were together, they could fight together.

 

I totally understand what you're saying and why many people think that it was just Zachariah's construct--it's not like it was outside of his powers to do either. It's just that I think if it weren't truly what the future held at that time and just a hoax to force Dean to say yes, then Zachariah, or the angels in general, would have used that to tell Dean that he made the wrong decision based on wrong information. Of course, that's just me assuming that the show would take pleasure in making a big deal of it's own twisted-twisty-twist of a plot since they rarely miss an opportunity to pat themselves on the back about such things. So it's only my own gut feeling here, I got nothing to really back it up or anything.

 

ETA: I think I may have something to back it up...I just love it when that happens, by the way. ;)  On the commentary track for The End--Kripke, Edlund and Singer--they talk about how they originally were trying to push the idea that 2014 Dean would have already gone through this once before and he was somewhat playing 2009 Dean. However, Kripke and Edlund had a hard time explaining it to Bob Singer in anyway that made sense to him--I guess they were drawing him diagrams about time travel and such, which his response was something to the effect of "are you going to be drawing those for the audience"--so they dropped that idea and went with the concept that time was fluid. So, I think the intention of the episode was that it was the future and not some construct of Zachariah's. However, just because those yahoos say something, doesn't mean it's actually true. So much of this show has to viewed by one's own experiences and taken as an individual interpretation, IMO. Well, maybe that's true of most shows, though.

Edited June 9, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[juppschmitz]

@Tippi Blevins

I hated that. Everything with their parents being put together in order to produce them, and "it's your destiny!" and blah blah. Except then it turned out not to be Dean's destiny at all because of Adam subbing at the end, so... what? It all just seemed like a shoehorned mess. I wish the angels had just said, "You know what, we want it to be Sam and Dean because they are the hottest. There."

 

The way I made my peace with that is telling myself that the angels were so focused on their big prize fight, and the vessels, and having put so much effort into it (bringing John and Mary together, making sure there was one child for each vessel etc etc), that they completely forgot about the prophecy. The Righteous Man who begins it is the only one who can end it. They just reckoned, well, if Dean won't say yes, and if Lucifer doesn't have his predestined vessel, we'll just go for the substitute and hope for the best.

 

What I love is that - as it should be - the prophecy won. Dean began it and he was the one who ended it. Because all willingness to sacrifice himself aside, Sam would not have been able to take control of Lucifer if Dean hadn't come to Stull in the Impala, let himself be beaten up and all the rest.

 

Yep. Prophecies and their small print. Beat artificially produced destinies every time.

Edited June 9, 2014 by juppschmitz

[Demented Daisy]

So, I think the intention of the episode was that it was the future and not some construct of Zachariah's. However, just because those yahoos say something, doesn't mean it's actually true.

 

 

The other problem with this show and listening to the producers/writers/showrunners is that they change their minds.  What was originally intended is changed so often that most of the time, I'm not sure what we're supposed to believe.  See the above discussion about Kripke and Gamble.  Not to mention how things changed as a result of the writers' strike and the renewal for season 6.  Which is why...

 

So much of this show has to viewed by one's own experiences and taken as an individual interpretation, IMO.

 

 

ITA with this.

 

ETA  I forgot to mention that they also make mistakes.  They forget things.  They contradict themselves.  It happens.  *shrug*

Edited June 9, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[Pete Martell]

Speaking of contradictions, as I make my way through the end of season 4, I still have no idea how the show wanted people to feel about Sam and the demon blood. I'd forgotten how much Bobby, the show's mouthpiece, opposed the detox of Sam. I'd also forgotten that this was where the heavy implications started of Sam's powers being bad in large part because Dean wasn't supportive enough.

 

What a confusing morass this story is and was for me.

 

If the whole thing hadn't gotten such negative fan response, I can't help wondering if they'd planned for Sam to keep his powers, just as some sort of controlled substance. That seemed to be where they were going throughout season 5, where they kept trying to suggest ways that the demon blood was "good," as long as he had support and love while he used it.

[catrox14]

Bobby went straight to my poo list as of Lucifer Rising. Warning: Rant ahead.

 

I really don't understand what they were going for with Bobby suddenly rethinking putting Sam in the detox dungeon.  I mean it seemed that Bobby and Dean were in agreement that it was the thing to do.  I can't believe that Bobby didn't have some idea how bad it would be. And about Bobby's rant against Dean. Nope. Big ole pile of nope. Also, SHUT UP BOBBY.

 

IMO Bobby was kind of a hypocrite for chewing out Dean.  Bobby had been actively encouraging Dean to let Sam have more demon blood which told me that Bobby was okay with the high probability that Sammy could turn into a demon forever. Dean didn't want that for Sammy and would do everything he could to make sure that didn't happen but Bobby wasn't going to support Dean here... WAT?  I was expecting a reveal that Bobby's change of heart was solely an influence of Zachariah, but no that didn't seem to be the case.

 

IMO, Dean's spiral downward and belief that Sam was lost to him was legitimate and not worthy of Bobby's scorn.  So to me Bobby calling Dean a stupid son of a bitch and a princess (code for pussy IMO)and then comparing him to John was disgusting regardless of him saying 'you're a better man than your Dad'.  Tough love, my ass. Cruel and unusual punishment of Dean considering Dean's raison d'etre has been protect Sammy at all costs and Bobby didn't seem to be helping Dean with that anymore but encouraging the demon blood drinking again 

 

Sammy chose to actively work with and drink the blood of the things that tormented Dean in Hell and that he narrowly avoided becoming himself.**  I thought Bobby going off on Dean was unwarranted and shitty even if it may have yielded Dean calling Sam, which BTW made no difference because Zachariah altered the phone call anyway and Sam never heard Dean's real call and apology.

 

Wasn't it Castiel telling Dean that Lilith was the final seal and Dean demanding that Cas take him to Sam that mattered in the end?  To me, all that shit with Bobby didn't even need to happen to end up in the same place with Dean and Cas.  It was a weird humiliation of Dean that was supposed to make Bobby look like a wise old coot.  All it did was make me think Bobby is a jerk and was enabling Sam's addiction.  That whole part made no sense to me.

 

**Sidebar: As I watch these episodes again in s4, I cannot help but think of the advent of Demon!Dean in s9 and it makes me even more angry that they chose that for him. It's such a gut punch to see Dean fighting with every ounce of everything he has to keep Sammy from going darkside and becoming a monster :(.  Even worse Sammy drinks demon blood and murders an innocent nurse but he never became a demon. 

 

Ugh.  ActualDemon!Dean (vs Dreamon!Dean) recontextualizes every fucking moment of Dean's arc in the entire series. It's really almost more than I can stand. :(:(.

Edited June 10, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

that was supposed to make Bobby look like a wise old coot

Hee! I love a good oxy-moron! ;)

 

I'll give you something that may or may not ease your mind a bit catrox...in Sympathy For The Devil, Bobby is possessed. Since I've never been able to figure how or when this happened given Bobby's knowledge (of demons and possession in particular), I have decided that Bobby got possessed when Sam knocked him out in When The Levee Breaks. So, Bobby's rant about Dean being a princess could be the demon talking and trying to get Dean to support Sam in doing what the demons want. It doesn't all line up or work entirely, but if you squint really hard and give it your all, it kinda works.

 

My issues with Bobby didn't really start until somewhere towards the end of S5 or S6. I never cared for how they made him more present in their childhoods than I believe the narrative required. I really started to change how I viewed their dynamic in S1 as colleagues--which I loved. As much as I thought Death's Door was a well-written episode, idea-wise, I never bought that Bobby ever once threw a ball around with Dean.

[ElleryAnne]

As much as I thought Death's Door was a well-written episode, idea-wise, I never bought that Bobby ever once threw a ball around with Dean.

 

 

The retconning of Bobby's relationship with the boys is one of the things that bugs me.  I liked when he was just one of the assortment of people their father knew, like Pastor Jim or Caleb or Daniel.  And I was fine with a little retconning to the point that Bobby had seen and known the boys a little bit (though it didn't jibe with Bobby's introduction to the show).  But later on, when he's apparently always been this great part of their lives and practically raised them, that gets to be a bit much.  I feel sometimes like Balthazar stopped another Titanic sinking, only none of them know it yet.

[amazinglybored]

Bobby turned out to be a mess of a character who I went from loving to actively wanting him killed... and to damn well stay dead. I think the biggest problem was him really becoming the writer's mouthpiece, it turns out those idiots want to say shit that I find awful. Then there was the need to make him this major figure throughout their lives, no.

 

 

If the whole thing hadn't gotten such negative fan response, I can't help wondering if they'd planned for Sam to keep his powers, just as some sort of controlled substance. That seemed to be where they were going throughout season 5, where they kept trying to suggest ways that the demon blood was "good," as long as he had support and love while he used it.

 

It really wouldn't surprise me. People talk about it as an addiction storyline and I'm not sure how accurate that was from the writers at the time, or they have horrible views on addiction. But encouraging it, enabling him and then blaming his family for not loving him and his demon blood enough, that's not an addiction storyline. It's more look at how wrong people were for doubting him and how their ignorance and failure almost destroyed him, and then everyone learns their mistake in doubting him.

 

I think they always wanted Sam to have powers, they've just never been able to make it work.

Edited June 10, 2014 by amazinglybored

[catrox14]

Hee! I love a good oxy-moron! ;)

 

I'll give you something that may or may not ease your mind a bit catrox...in Sympathy For The Devil, Bobby is possessed. Since I've never been able to figure how or when this happened given Bobby's knowledge (of demons and possession in particular), I have decided that Bobby got possessed when Sam knocked him out in When The Levee Breaks. So, Bobby's rant about Dean being a princess could be the demon talking and trying to get Dean to support Sam in doing what the demons want. It doesn't all line up or work entirely, but if you squint really hard and give it your all, it kinda works.

 

My issues with Bobby didn't really start until somewhere towards the end of S5 or S6. I never cared for how they made him more present in their childhoods than I believe the narrative required. I really started to change how I viewed their dynamic in S1 as colleagues--which I loved. As much as I thought Death's Door was a well-written episode, idea-wise, I never bought that Bobby ever once threw a ball around with Dean.

 

 

 

Heh. You joke about possessed Bobby in When the Levee Breaks and Lucifer Rising but when he started talking about allowing Sam to have more demon blood, I actually thought he might have been possessed at that moment. I would have totally bought that!  But nope.  It was apparently all Bobby that made no sense.

 

I also agree with you about Bobby becoming overly important in their lives in s5 and s6.  I thought Dean saying Bobby was like a father to him in Lazarus Rising was sweet and really sad because I thought it was showing that Dean was so desperate for a father figure that he was going to glom onto this guy that was really nothing more than a family friend. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I also agree with you about Bobby becoming overly important in their lives in s5 and s6.  I thought Dean saying Bobby was like a father to him in Lazarus Rising was sweet and really sad because I thought it was showing that Dean was so desperate for a father figure that he was going to glom onto this guy that was really nothing more than a family friend.

 

It totally works for me in Lazarus Rising. Mostly because of what you point out, Dean is desperate for a father figure and also because he says "you are the closest thing I have to a father." He's not saying you have always been like a father, but you're what I have left. It doesn't change that S1 dynamic for me.

 

 

ETA: as far as Bobby suggesting they give Sam more demon blood...I always took it as he felt that Sam was going to die from the detox anyway so why not use him to stop other people from dying and make his death mean something. But, once Dean put his foot down, he was didn't bring it up again and supported Dean's decision, so that part doesn't bother me as much.

Edited June 10, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

It's more look at how wrong people were for doubting him and how their ignorance and failure almost destroyed him, and then everyone learns their mistake in doubting him.

 

That's the thing that really irks me about Bobby in the finale of s4 (I count 4.21 and 4.22 as two parts...I know it's just easier for me).

 

Like did he really think just a drop or two of demon blood was going to be like Methadone or whatever people use to kick opiates? Cause it's really not the same thing at all. 

 

In s9  Dean was told he would die if he didn't kill and his symptoms sure seemed to support that and I don't think Crowley was lying about that. So I can't help but wonder, if Bobby were alive to see Dean with the MoC would he have advocated for Dean to kill just a little bit so he wouldn't die? 

[DittyDotDot]

In s9  Dean was told he would die if he didn't kill and his symptoms sure seemed to support that and I don't think Crowley was lying about that. So I can't help but wonder, if Bobby were alive to see Dean with the MoC would he have advocated for Dean to kill just a little bit so he wouldn't die?

 

I don't think so, these would be very different scenarios, IMO. Sam drinking more demon blood really only hurts Sam, but could potentially help them bring down a few demons in the process. Dean killing to stay alive would mean that Dean would be killing--which may help Dean, but would end up with a lot of folks dead. And I never got the sense that Bobby was saying they should use the demon blood as a form of detox, I think he was saying they should use Sam before he died anyway. I don't know, probably just my interpretation.

[catrox14]

 

It totally works for me in Lazarus Rising. Mostly because of what you point out, Dean is desperate for a father figure and also because he says "you are the closest thing I have to a father." He's not saying you have always been like a father, but you're what I have left. It doesn't change that S1 dynamic for me.

 

 I think Dean's 'closest thing I have to a father'  works in Lazarus Rising because what we know of Bobby to that point is that he's just a fellow hunter and family friend; that he knows the boys and is willing to help when he can, but nothing like the closeness that they apparently had all along.  I realize it's a nuance but for me it kind of changed the desperation Dean has in that moment pleading with this guy that is ready to kill him. But I do see what you mean.

 

I have so many issues with 'Uncle/Foster Dad Bobby' that it would take an essay for me to sort it all out. 

 

nd I never got the sense that Bobby was saying they should use the demon blood as a form of detox, I think he was saying they should use Sam before he died anyway. I don't know, probably just my interpretation.

 

 Are you saying that  Bobby didn't care if Sammy actually became a monster as long as he killed Lilith before dying?  That Sam was just a weapon at that point?

 

I'm not sure I agree that him drinking the demon blood hurt only him. He was harsher and more cruel.  He was trying to keep it in check but I think he was ready to blow at any time. I thought he killed the nurse because he needed her blood too. I don't think Sam before the demon blood thing would have done that.

Edited June 10, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

The problem I have always had with "Bobby was their true father!" is that if that is the case, then it means in some ways he is as bad as John, because he was there from very early on, per retcons, so he saw what John did to them psychologically (and possibly physically). Yet he continued this behavior with Dean, repeatedly giving him the same harmful "who cares about you? Suck it up," speeches John had given him. 

 

And then adding that Bobby had also been an abused child made the whole thing bother me even more, because this meant he had huge unaddressed issues that he likely took out on Dean and possibly Sam.

 

Say what you will about Carver, but I'm glad he deemphasized the whole Bobby = father thing, and wrote Bobby closer to his early characterization.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Pete Martell