All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

The thing that confuses me most is the request to Cas. I just don't really understand what he expects Cas to do, or why he would want him to keep anything a secret from Sam. Why wouldn't Dean also be telling Sam to let Cas kill him, and that he doesn't want to live as a demon? Why is he setting up a situation where Sam is definitely going to try to save him again, even thinking that's what he would want, while Cas is going to be trying to kill him? If Sam isn't likely to listen to his wish to be killed, regardless, it's even more pointless to keep that wish or Cas being the designated Demon!Dean-killer a secret, isn't it?

 

I think Dean's just setting up a contingency before the shit hits the fan. He's making his supernatural DNR and asking Cass to be the enforcer of it. I think there's very little Sam could really do to stop Dean, if he was a demon again, and Dean knows that. Cass is probably the only thing powerful enough to actually stop him. Plus, I don't think he wants to ask his brother to kill him and it's not like there's anyone else. I know if it was me, I wouldn't want to ask that of my siblings, but I might of a trusted friend--even though it's kinda a shitty thing to burden anyone with.

 

Would it be smarter for him to include Sam in this? You betcha, but what would Supernatural be without stupid and unnecessary secrets and lies?

 

 

Does killing satiate the Mark, or does it whet its appetite? Because it actually has seemed that, if anything, the more that Dean has killed, the more bloodlust he'd had and the harder it's been to control. Especially if after he killed Abbedon, things ramped up with the MoC. If killing satiated it, wouldn't killing a big shot have ratcheted *down* the bloodlust and made the MoC feel easier to control? Cain also controlled it by keeping the killing to a minimum, I think? It seemed like back when Cain was participating in massacres, it was controlling him much more.

 

I think for a short time the Mark is satiated. That's why Crowley was sending him those demons to kill at the beginning of the season. I think the longer Dean goes without killing the more the Mark hungers for it and the worse Dean feels--or as Crowley put it "the more you kill, the better you feel"--whereas, a little kill here and there allows him to feel better and be in control for a short period of time. However, I think it's just a matter of time before the Mark will turn him into a demon anyway.

 

 

Also, *something* must have not worked with the cure, because it seems like otherwise, it would be a pretty good stopgap/Plan B for if Dean does become a demon again. I mean, if he becomes a demon again, then couldn't they just cure him again? At least as a temporary solution? And if he's *that* afraid of becoming a demon again, then why is he out and about anyway? Why isn't he insisting on being kept on lockdown?

 

The cure only removed the demon that the Mark turned him into. But the Mark is still there and I think its slowly turning him back into a demon. So, theoretically they could keep doing the cure and Dean could keep turning into a demon, but it's a never ending cycle of blood and torment. And, whose to say Dean doesn't go on another killing spree each and every time he gets turned back into a demon? I think it's the weight of all that possible blood on his hands is what Dean doesn't want to carry around with him. It'd be better to be dead, in his mind.

[rue721]

I think Dean's just setting up a contingency before the shit hits the fan. He's making his supernatural DNR and asking Cass to be the enforcer of it. I think there's very little Sam could really do to stop Dean, if he was a demon again, and Dean knows that. Cass is probably the only thing powerful enough to actually stop him. Plus, I don't think he wants to ask his brother to kill him and it's not like there's anyone else. I know if it was me, I wouldn't want to ask that of my siblings, but I might of a trusted friend--even though it's kinda a shitty thing to burden anyone with.

 

Would it be smarter for him to include Sam in this? You betcha, but what would Supernatural be without stupid and unnecessary secrets and lies?

 

I don't think dying is an option for him right now, though, is it? Even if he could be killed, wouldn't his soul just turn up in Hell? That doesn't seem like it would be an improvement (for anyone). And I'm not sure that he even actually can be killed or how his body works as long as it's the MoC's host anyway. If he actually wanted to be stopped, it seems like imprisonment would work better.

 

If he's just coming up with a contingency plan, though, wouldn't the obvious, easiest and most-likely-to-work one be to just have the cure at the ready? Why would he be trying to get Cas and Sam off the same page? I feel like it's more likely a divide-and-conquer thing than an actual contingency plan -- because it does divide Cas and Sam pretty well, or at least get them off the same page, but it doesn't stop Dean from becoming a demon especially.

 

Also, it just seems like the cruelest possible way to set up a contingency plan, since even in the best case scenario, it would end up in Sam feeling betrayed and Cas feeling guilty for having Dean's blood on his hands.

 

The cure was horribly boring even when they actually did it, but giving it to Dean was the third time we've seen it on screen already (the old movie, Crowley, and Dean), so I don't think that they've just dumped it because it's boring. The show doesn't even seem to consider it boring, since they did that whole blood addiction SL for Crowley based on it, and then had it being given to Dean be the climax of the (or at least this first) demon!Dean arc. I think it must not be coming into play because it's not effective somehow and Dean knows that. Or it is effective, but he actually *doesn't* want to be cured for some reason.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think dying is an option for him right now, though, is it?

 

I believe that's why he asked Cass to throw him into the sun--I'd think that'd trump everything, like wood chippers and monsters. I think this is precisely why he asked Cass who is an angel. Cass would probably be the only ally left who could actually pull this off somehow. I guess they could always try summoning Death again, which would be awesome!

 

I don't know if his soul would go to Hell at this point. If he wasn't a demon anymore and Cass did throw him into the sun, I don't see why his soul wouldn't be still be Heaven-bound? Of course if he gets killed while he's a demon, and he died as a demon...who knows? Where's Allistair and Lilith and Meg and countless other demons that they stabbed with the knife-that-can-kill-everything-except-when-it-doesn't?

 

 

The cure was horribly boring even when they actually did it, but giving it to Dean was the third time we've seen it on screen already (the old movie, Crowley, and Dean), so I don't think that they've just dumped it because it's boring. The show doesn't even seem to consider it boring, since they did that whole blood addiction SL for Crowley based on it, and then had it being given to Dean be the climax of the (or at least this first) demon!Dean arc. I think it must not be coming into play because it's not effective somehow and Dean knows that. Or it is effective, but he actually *doesn't* want to be cured for some reason.

 

I believe DD was saying it would be boring to watch an endless cycle of Dean becoming a demon and being cured again. I don't think she was saying the cure itself is boring to watch--although I think the whole blood cure is rather stupid, but that's probably just me. I think it's not an actual cure until Dean gets rid of the Mark because the Mark will just turn him into a demon once again. In other words: it's not a actual solution to the problem, just a temporary band aid, IMO.

 

Sorry DD, I probably shouldn't speak for you...you're perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

[Demented Daisy]

Indeed, Ditty.  It's all about the (unwritten) Rule of Three.  The audience will accept something (a joke, for example) three times before you lose them.

 

So, for example, Dean died how many times in Mystery Spot?  But each time, they subverted the Rule of Three by giving him different ways to die.  Unless they can come up with a twist in the curing procedure, the audience will most likely say, "This again?"

 

If TPTB decide that the cure did not work, not completely, I would not be surprised if it's mentioned to Cain, asking why it didn't work.  

[rue721]

I believe that's why he asked Cass to throw him into the sun--I'd think that'd trump everything, like wood chippers and monsters. I think this is precisely why he asked Cass who is an angel. Cass would probably be the only ally left who could actually pull this off somehow. I guess they could always try summoning Death again, which would be awesome!

 

I don't know if his soul would go to Hell at this point. If he wasn't a demon anymore and Cass did throw him into the sun, I don't see why his soul wouldn't be still be Heaven-bound? Of course if he gets killed while he's a demon, and he died as a demon...who knows? Where's Allistair and Lilith and Meg and countless other demons that they stabbed with the knife-that-can-kill-everything-except-when-it-doesn't?

 

I think that the knife basically vaporizes the demon's soul, so it doesn't exist anymore once the demon is stabbed. It didn't seem to do anything at all to Cain, but it iIrc it did at least hurt Abaddon, so while I think that the knife couldn't kill Dean as long as he's a Knight of Hell, it could be used to hurt him. That's why I would think that Dean would be trying to hang onto that knife if he doesn't actually want to die-for-real even if he becomes a demon or if he's trying to run some kind of game on everybody/anybody, but would give the knife to Cas or Sam if he actually wanted them to have as many weapons as possible to use against demon!Dean.

 

The thing with killing Dean is that even if they kill him, his soul is still going to exist *somewhere,* because they don't have a way of vaporizing his soul as long as he's either human or a Knight of Hell (or some mixture of them), since the demon knife kill-kills demons and the angel knife kill-kills angels, but no one has anything that does the same for humans or KoH, afaik. Even the First Blade seems like it wouldn't work, since Dean was cutting himself with it and watching the cuts heal up when he was bored sitting at some bar as a demon, and it didn't seem to hurt him at all. So if Cas threw him into the sun, wouldn't his soul just go zooming back to Hell or possibly Purgatory? I don't think Heaven is a possibility because it's closed up and also because I think that the deal with getting the MoC is that it damns you. That was Cain's deal, right, that if he got it, it damned his soul but saved his brother? On the other hand, maybe it just changes the bearer into another sort of creature, in which case I guess Dean would be a "monster" and would go to Purgatory when he's killed?

 

Indeed, Ditty.  It's all about the (unwritten) Rule of Three.  The audience will accept something (a joke, for example) three times before you lose them.

 

I agree that the show wouldn't have the cure work again, but the characters wouldn't know something meta like that. So you'd think it would still be their go-to plan?

[catrox14]

Okay now I want Dean to be killed so he can go to Purgatory and hang out with Benny and hunt down Gordon, Dick Roman, etc.

[DittyDotDot]

So if Cas threw him into the sun, wouldn't his soul just go zooming back to Hell or possibly Purgatory? I don't think Heaven is a possibility because it's closed up and also because I think that the deal with getting the MoC is that it damns you. That was Cain's deal, right, that if he got it, it damned his soul but saved his brother? On the other hand, maybe it just changes the bearer into another sort of creature, in which case I guess Dean would be a "monster" and would go to Purgatory when he's killed?

 

Do we know that Heaven is still closed up now that the backdoor was made permanent? Am I remembering that right? Didn't Hannah say they made the backdoor permanent to the angels could all return to Heaven. Regardless, you might be right about the Mark damning your soul, that's how it worked for Cain. But, would it be the same for Dean who didn't make the same deal? I don't know, that's a good question.

[Demented Daisy]

I agree that the show wouldn't have the cure work again, but the characters wouldn't know something meta like that. So you'd think it would still be their go-to plan?

 

 

If Dean becomes a demon again, then I expect Cas would suggest it.  But Sam, being Sam, would probably ask how many times they can do it.  How many times are they going to treat the symptoms, instead of the disease?

 

I'm just saying that the show won't do it because of the audience.  Outside the confines of a tv show, the logical thing would be for them to cure Dean again and put him on lockdown.  Cas would guard him while Sam searched for Cain and a real solution.

 

But no way the show does that, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

You keep bringing logic in here...I thought we talked about this? Hee! ;)

[catrox14]

They put Sam in lock down twice and Dean in lock down once and IMO it didn't seem to alienate the audience. I would just start rooting for demon Dean to come out just to get a bottle episode of demon Dean vs Cas

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

But that's my point.  How many times can they do the same thing before the audience says, "Enough!"?

[catrox14]

With this audience? I would say it would take awhile considering how many times we've tolerated the boys dying and coming back, watched beloved characters killed, rinse repeat. As long as it's something slightly different. I would have watched demon Dean and Sam take the piss out of each other for at least 3 more episodes, throw in some Dean vs Cas for another episode. Seriously I would watch that.

[Demented Daisy]

With this audience? I would say it would take awhile considering how many times we've tolerated the boys dying and coming back, watched beloved characters killed, rinse repeat. As long as it's something slightly different. I would have watched demon Dean and Sam take the piss out of each other for at least 3 more episodes, throw in some Dean vs Cas for another episode. Seriously I would watch that.

 

 

Which is precisely what I said above:

 

Unless they can come up with a twist in the curing procedure, the audience will most likely say, "This again?"

[rue721]

I would have watched demon Dean and Sam take the piss out of each other for at least 3 more episodes, throw in some Dean vs Cas for another episode. Seriously I would watch that.

 

Ikr? They zoomed through the demon!Dean SL so fast my head spun. I would have loved bottle episodes of just all kinds of demon!Dean or half-cured!Dean or, my favorite idea, natch:  demon!Dean got addicted to human blood a la Crowley, and the pressure/precariousness of keeping Dean on lockdown got to Sam and set off his demon blood addiction, and then they had to start drinking each others' blood. LOL.

 

Anyway, the demon SL is actually one of the fresher SLs the show has cooking, so I don't think that just dropping a huge aspect of it, like that demons (maybe) can be cured, makes sense even from a storytelling standpoint. Not that I like the idea of them having a demon cure in the first place, but it's canon now, so *shrug*

 

My hunch is that Crowley is going to be successfully cured sometime this season, which would bring the count of successful, or at least successful-ish, demon-cures up to three (the old movie and Dean are the other two imo). I don't think that Dean's going to be successfully cured again, but I would expect the characters to be keeping the idea of curing him in their back pocket in order to buy them some time.

 

That Dean would ask Cas to throw him into the sun rather than that he would want them to have some kind of lockdown and/or cure ready for him in case things go wrong seems suspicious to me. Especially since it seems like he's pretty resigned to things going wrong in the near future, and since he pretty much flat out put a wedge between Cas and Sam in that conversation, and they're the team who cured him last time. I don't think Dean's lying per se, but I wonder what is going on with him.

 

Regardless, you might be right about the Mark damning your soul, that's how it worked for Cain. But, would it be the same for Dean who didn't make the same deal? I don't know, that's a good question.

 

Dean has received the "protection" of the Mark, so imo the part of the deal that Dean hasn't followed through on yet is killing his brother. I think the deal is generally that taking the Mark damns the bearer regardless (what with the thing of the human body not being able to survive while bearing the Mark, and with the Mark automatically making Dean a Knight of Hell) but maybe the Mark could also give Dean could a chance to save Sam by killing him in return for that damnation, a la Cain saving Abel by killing him and being damned himself.

 

I think that's why Dean having sacrificed himself for Sam before maybe was part of what made him eligible for the Mark -- because I think the Mark's deal is that it allows someone to save his brother as long as he damns himself.

 

That's why I'm worried that Dean actually is going to end up killing Sam at some point this season (well, that and because he is literally bearing the Mark of *Cain* right now. It would seem pretty anticlimactic for the show to give that to him and then not have him kill Sam some way or another).

[catrox14]

The lock down itself would be the same and to me that is just the setting. What matters to me is what happens between the characters in that bottle. IMO the difference is the entire dynamic changes because its demon! Dean who I think is pretty fascinating. I mean the snarky, mean demo Dean, not the one that drinks and cruises chicks because that is the same as regular! Dean who I love and find fascinating too but it's different than no fucks to give demon! Dean.

Edited December 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

That's why I'm worried that Dean actually is going to end up killing Sam at some point this season (well, that and because he is literally bearing the Mark of *Cain* right now. It would seem pretty anticlimactic for the show to give that to him and then not have him kill Sam some way or another).

 

I actually can't imagine the show ever having one of the actually kill the other, nor is it something I particularly wish to see as it sounds rather lame and obvious, to me. I think the whole point of this is going to be, Dean saved his brother and now is in the position for his brother to save him; Cain killed his savior and spent centuries killing for it. Dean would be Cain right now if it weren't for him saving Sam over and over and over and over again since S2.

 

 

That Dean would ask Cas to throw him into the sun rather than that he would want them to have some kind of lockdown and/or cure ready for him in Dean has received the "protection" of the Mark, so imo the part of the deal that Dean hasn't followed through on yet is killing his brother. I think the deal is generally that taking the Mark damns the bearer regardless (what with the thing of the human body not being able to survive while bearing the Mark, and with the Mark automatically making Dean a Knight of Hell) but maybe the Mark could also give Dean could a chance to save Sam by killing him in return for that damnation, a la Cain saving Abel by killing him and being damned himself.

 

But Dean didn't actually make a deal like Cain did. Cain made a deal with Lucifer himself and the terms were one soul for the other with a brother slaying thrown on top. Cain transferred the Mark to Dean with the only caveat being he'd return one day and kill Cain. I'm not sure if it's the taking of the Mark that damned Cain's soul or the killing his brother or the combination that did it? That's something I wouldn't mind knowing.

 

 

They zoomed through the demon!Dean SL so fast my head spun.

 

I know this is a rather unpopular opinion, but I was actually relieved when they cured Dean. Not because I felt so bad for Dean being a demon--I did, but I also knew it wouldn't last forever and was hoping it would be something interesting to watch--but I thought it was incredibly boring watching Dean and Crowley sit around in bars talking about how the Mark needed to be fed over and over again. If they'd actually had a cat-and-mouse going on with Sam and Dean, I'd probably have enjoyed it fine, but they didn't. The most interesting parts of Demon Dean, to me, was watching Sam learn Dean was a demon. The rest of it totally lulled into a coma.

Edited December 16, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

 

I've never read Harry Potter or seen the movies, but it sounds like we're saying something similar...ish.

But...But...But... I'm so confused...... (just teasing).

 

I think the Horcrux is an EXCELLENT analogy. 

[rue721]

I actually can't imagine the show ever having one of the actually kill the other, nor is it something I particularly wish to see as it sounds rather lame and obvious to me. I think the whole point of this is going to be, Dean saved his brother and now is in the position for his brother to save him; Cain killed his savior and spent centuries killing for it. Dean would be Cain right now if it weren't for him saving Sam over and over and over and over again since S2.

 

I think they kind of have to have Dean kill Sam at some point, given how they've tried so hard to sell the MoC idea. Nobody die-dies on this show so I assume it would be to get him to Heaven somehow or they'd otherwise complicate things. But if Dean doesn't kill Sam at all, then what's even the point of introducing Cain/Abel and the Mark of Cain into things? It would seem like such a cop out to copy the story about the most famous fratricidal siblings in history but then drop the fratricide thing. I think they have to at least throw in the elements of fratricide and, ideally, exile into the mix this season or it'll be a waste of the Cain/Abel idea, which I think is actually one of the strongest ideas they've had in years. YMMV though.

 

I don't understand your reference to Cain killing his savior or that Dean would be Cain at this point if he hadn't saved Sam back in the day/continuously?

 

But Dean didn't actually make a deal like Cain did. Cain made a deal with Lucifer himself and the terms were one soul for the other with a brother slaying thrown on top. Cain transferred the Mark to Dean with the only caveat being he'd return one day and kill Cain. I'm not sure if it's the taking of the Mark that damned Cain's soul or the killing his brother or the combination that did it? That's something I wouldn't mind knowing.

 

I think taking the mark is what damned Cain, and Cain killing his brother is what saved Abel. If Cain hadn't killed Abel, I think he still would have been damned because only a Knight of Hell is apparently strong enough to carry the Mark, and if he's marked out for demon-hood like that just by taking the Mark, I think that counts as him being damned. But Lucifer wouldn't have let Abel go to Heaven unless Cain killed him himself. They haven't spelled it out entirely, though, that's just my interpretation of the story Cain told Dean.

 

So imo Dean is damned just by carrying the Mark, because I think that being damned/marked out to be a demon or under Lucifer's protection is an essential part of how the Mark works. I mean, Dean might even be channeling some of Lucifer's power through the Mark, Idk where the Mark's power or strength comes from.

 

As for being able to leverage the Mark into saving Sam rather than *just* damning himself, I think that Dean has at least a shot at it because imo it seemed like the Mark was part of/a symbol of a contract between Lucifer and Cain, and when Cain transferred the Mark over to Dean, he was switching Dean's name in for his own in that contract, but the contract itself was essentially the same. I think that when Cain and Dean shook hands and the Mark switched from Cain's arm to Dean, that was them sealing that deal -- like how kissing the Crossroads demon will seal a Crossroads deal. That's again just my interpretation of how the Mark works, though.

 

I know this is a rather unpopular opinion, but I was actually relieved when they cured Dean. Not because I felt so bad for Dean being a demon--I did, but I also knew it wouldn't last forever and was hoping it would be something interesting to watch--but I thought it was incredibly boring watching Dean and Crowley sit around in bars talking about how the Mark needed to be fed over and over again. If they'd actually had a cat-and-mouse going on with Sam and Dean, I'd probably have enjoyed it fine, but they didn't. The most interesting parts of Demon Dean, to me, was watching Sam learn Dean was a demon. The rest of it totally lulled into a coma.

 

I agree that the execution was crummy, but as far as mytharcs go, I think it has a lot of potential. At least it's personal and the mythology itself is interesting and complex, and they haven't done it before already. Also, I think Demon!Dean himself is really interesting as a concept. Why he was acting like a 22-year-old scumbag at the beginning of the season, Idk, but I think/hope he'll be coming back around at some point later in the season and maybe they'll make him more clever and individual and think up some kind of plot next time. Also, I liked how Sam interacted with him, and would love to see more of that. I actually really liked when Sam came to pick demon!Dean up at that bar, and was so straightforward and subdued about it. That was probably the most successful part of the whole SL, imo.

 

The actual cure bothers me not just because of this particular storyline with Dean, but also/mostly because it opens up the question of why they don't then try to cure more demons rather than killing them. I already had an issue with them killing them rather than exercising them, but at least that had the practical benefit of getting rid of the demon for good rather than just sending it back to Hell for a reset. If the cure actually works then they really have a moral imperative to try and use it on demons imo.

[DittyDotDot]

I think they kind of have to have Dean kill Sam at some point, given how they've tried so hard to sell the MoC idea. Nobody die-dies on this show so I assume it would be to get him to Heaven somehow or they'd otherwise complicate things. But if Dean doesn't kill Sam at all, then what's even the point of introducing Cain/Abel and the Mark of Cain into things? It would seem like such a cop out to copy the story about the most famous fratricidal siblings in history but then drop the fratricide thing. I think they have to at least throw in the elements of fratricide and, ideally, exile into the mix this season or it'll be a waste of the Cain/Abel idea, which I think is actually one of the strongest ideas they've had in years. YMMV though.

 

I hope they find their own twist on the Cain/Abel mythology rather than just copying it. That's what the show always did best in the past, although, they haven't done it very successfully in quite some time, IMO. If they just do straight up Cain and Abel--Dean kills Sam--I really don't get the point of it, nor does it seem very compelling to me and seems contrary to the whole theme of the show being about how family is your strength. But if they turn it around and make it their own, I think it could be one of the better ideas they've attempted for a very long time. As always though, miles vary on these things.

 

 

I don't understand your reference to Cain killing his savior or that Dean would be Cain at this point if he hadn't saved Sam back in the day/continuously?

 

I look at it that the only reason Dean isn't still a demon is because Sam was alive to go after him and cure him. If Dean had let well enough be back when Sam was stabbed at the end of S2; or let him stay soulless in S6; or left him to die in that asylum back in S7; or let him commit suicide back in S8; or left him to die at the start of S9; or even went after him and helped Sam expel Gadreel again in S9 Sam wouldn't be around to help Dean now. Cain chose to kill his brother rather than try to save him. If Cain had made a different choice he may have had a brother around to save him too.

 

Granted, Dean may never have made it to the point where he ever met Cain if Sam had just been left to die at any of the countless times he saved Sam. But I find it's an interesting chicken/egg scenario anyway.

[catrox14]

Cain chose to kill his brother rather than try to save him. If Cain had made a different choice he may have had a brother around to save him too.

I thought Cain killed his brother TO save him. There was no other option because Abel was already talking with Lucifer. The only deal Cain could make was exchange Cain for Abel and then kill Abel to send him to Heaven.

Edited December 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

How do you know it was the only option? Could Cain not have a conversation with Abel? How do we know Abel couldn't have resisted Lucifer as Sam did in the end? I'm not sure it was the only option, but I then again I always think there's more than one option. There's always more than one way to do something and every choice has a consequence, you just have to try and make the choice you can live with in the end. To me that's the whole point of the story.

 

I'm not saying Cain was right or wrong or that he wasn't trying to save Abel in a different way, but he made a choice for Abel and paid dearly for it. Dean made a choice to save Sam and in his own way and has been paying for it, just in a different way. But, I wonder if Cain regrets his choice or would make a different one now that he knows the price to be paid? Would he give Abel a chance to save himself as Dean did with Sam?

Edited December 16, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Maybe there were technically other options, but it sounded to me like the MoC deal was basically Cain throwing a Hail Mary to get Abel away from Lucifer -- and luckily, it basically worked (for Abel, anyway). What I don't really understand is why Lucifer was involving himself with Abel in the first place or wanted Cain to damn himself/take the MoC. What was Lucifer's endgame, or even his motivation at all? But by the time Lucifer was dangling the MoC deal in front of Cain, I think that he'd probably set it up pretty well that Cain wouldn't see any other options. 

 

I also think that the "trades" aren't always that cut-and-dried. With Gadreel, Dean's decision kept Sam alive, but it also pretty directly got Kevin killed, and Dean apparently also thinks that Kevin's death is on his head, too. So imo that decision was also an unwitting trade of a life-for-a-life, Sam's for Kevin's.

 

Hey, once an angel gets permission to possess someone, does he have that permission forever? Or does he have to get new permission every time he possesses them? Ostensibly, I guess that a "vessel" can kick out an angel at any time anyway, but in practice it seems like the angel can do like Gadreel did to Sam and manipulate what the "vessel" even perceives is happening. UGH SHOULD STOP WONDERING ABOUT LUCIFER. But I'm wondering if he could possess Sam again if he got out of the Cage. Crack!speculation:  Sam (or Dean, but I think it's even less likely) tries to make a Hail Mary deal with Lucifer to save Dean from damnation/MoC. The Hail Mary is that Sam (or Dean, but again I doubt it) agrees to let Lucifer out of the Cage in return for getting rid of the Mark. Dean finds out about the Hail Mary and realizes that Lucifer can possess Sam at will once out of the Cage. So, to protect Sam by keeping him out of Lucifer's reach, Dean "sends Sam to Heaven" (aka, kills him) before Lucifer is released from the Cage. The nice thing is that if Lucifer were released, then Michael and Adam could finally get out, too, I think?

 

ETA:

 

Are the Trials a done deal now? Or could Sam still finish them? Because I think he did everything the first time around except successfully cure a demon and say the final Enochian spell. So if Dean is really cured, and there wasn't a time limit on how long it could take to finish all three trials, then all Sam has to do to close Hell is to say the spell.

 

BUT! He tried to cure Dean with someone else's blood, not his blood. In the old movie and again when Sam was trying to cure Crowley (and it seemed like it was working imo), it was the person giving the cure who used his own blood. Maybe that makes a difference in the efficacy of the cure, it has to be the purified blood of the person doing the curing? That makes me wonder again about whether Sam actually successfully cured Dean. Not to say that Dean is just a demon-and-faking-it right now, but maybe Sam only "healed" Dean a bit rather than actually curing him since he didn't stick with the spell exactly?

 

Maybe, regardless of what goes on otherwise, Sam could still finish curing Crowley and say the Enochian spell, and close up Hell that way.

Edited December 16, 2014 by rue721

[SueB]

 

What was Lucifer's endgame, or even his motivation at all?

He introduced murder into the world. It's why Cain was called "The Father of Murder" by Crowley.

[catrox14]

Just to refresh my own memory,

"Abel wasn't talking to God. He was talking to Lucifer. Lucifer was gonna make my brother into his pet. I couldn't bear to watch him be corrupted, so I offered a deal -- Abel's soul in heaven for my soul in hell. Lucifer accepted... As long as I was the one who sent Abel to heaven. So, I killed him. Became a soldier of Hell -- a knight."

Back then I can imagine Cain would not have believed there was any other way hence why I think he had no other options. Dean has more choices than Cain.

Dean had a choice to let Sam die and he would have gone to heaven most likely but Dean is too screwed up about Sams life to let him die.

Edited December 16, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe there were technically other options, but it sounded to me like the MoC deal was basically Cain throwing a Hail Mary to get Abel away from Lucifer -- and luckily, it basically worked (for Abel, anyway). What I don't really understand is why Lucifer was involving himself with Abel in the first place or wanted Cain to damn himself/take the MoC. What was Lucifer's endgame, or even his motivation at all? But by the time Lucifer was dangling the MoC deal in front of Cain, I think that he'd probably set it up pretty well that Cain wouldn't see any other options. 

 

My pet theory? Abel was the original Sam and Cain was the original Dean. They were vessels for Michael and Lucifer--that's what Michael told Dean back in The Song Remains The Same--their legacy (heh) spanned back to Cain and Abel. I have a whole idea simmering that the angels have been trying to get the apocalypse cooking for eons and Cain and Abel were the first attempt. Each attempt has a different set of variables and outcomes. The buck stops with Sam and Dean though, because they threw a wrench in the whole works with free will. It's not perfect, but I find it kinda fun.

 

Okay, not pet theory: Lucifer was just trying to fuck with Cain and Abel to see if he could make them "bad." Humans were his God's favorite creation and Lucifer was continuously trying to corrupt them to prove how imperfect we were. That's what got him locked in the cage in the first place.

[catrox14]

So the idea in the SPN verse is that Lucifer manipulated Cain into killing Abel so he could introduce murder? Intriguing. So then is murder... murder and unforgivable regardless of why one murders? Or is the father of murder not really that at all since his intent was to save his brother from hell? Is Dean irredeemable now if Cain is irredeemable?

[SueB]

Murder requires intent. From Cain's description it implies he thought he was saving Able. OTOH, he did take away Ables' choice in this. So, it's not clean cut (like in the tradional Biblical account where motivation was jealousy). So Lucifer may have put Cain in a corner where he felt he HAD to murder Able, but it's not evident that Cain tried anything else.

One can always be redeemed in the SPN universe. Remember what Joshua told Sam and Dean about granting them salvation. Sam went pretty darkside in S4 and Dean tortured in Hell. It sure looked like Cain was trying for redemption with Collete. OTOH, if someone feels no remorse, then they die unredeemed.

But while I think Dean believes he's unredeemable, I really think that's not how the show sees it.

[Pete Martell]

IA that this episode didn't feel like SPN. It felt like pod-person!SPN to me, and vaguely creepy in an uncanny-valley-esque kind of way. Which is similar to a lot of episodes from S8 on, imo. But: 

1. Rage, rage against they dying of the light. :P

2. Other than in the case of severe mismanagement on the part of the people actually making it, imo SPN isn't actually in any danger of not surviving. Afaik, it's a money-maker, since it's an anchor show with relatively high ratings and a massively loyal audience. The show is probably going to get produced until the leads refuse to do it anymore, and to try and mitigate even the risk that the leads' refusal to continue will "prematurely" end the show is what's causing the desperation to make some sort of spin-off happen imo. So I actually don't think that practical concerns are driving the change (in tone, in atmosphere, in characterization, etc), I think it's Carver's artistic vision for the show that's driving that. But of course what do I know, that's just my personal guess.

 

I'm not sure there's all that much desperation about a spinoff. Until last season, there hadn't been any talk in a while of trying for a spinoff, as the CW obviously wasn't interested. That spinoff seemed to be so unlike SPN I've always assumed the CW called most of the shots. Now TPTB have talked again about if they do a spinoff, but I don't get the idea that it's a big priority or that they expect it to happen (especially since The Flash is a big hit for them and that may push the CW more toward comic book fare). I think it's just that any time this show features anyone but Sam, Dean, Cas, or Crowley for more than 2 seconds, people assume it must be a spinoff.

[rue721]

I'm not sure there's all that much desperation about a spinoff. Until last season, there hadn't been any talk in a while of trying for a spinoff, as the CW obviously wasn't interested. That spinoff seemed to be so unlike SPN I've always assumed the CW called most of the shots. Now TPTB have talked again about if they do a spinoff, but I don't get the idea that it's a big priority or that they expect it to happen (especially since The Flash is a big hit for them and that may push the CW more toward comic book fare). I think it's just that any time this show features anyone but Sam, Dean, Cas, or Crowley for more than 2 seconds, people assume it must be a spinoff.

 

Taking this to the thread for "Writers, Directors and The Powers That Be"

[rue721]

I see the Mark and the Blade like the horcruxes.  The power is in the horcrux itself (the piece of soul broken off from the whole through the process of killing), but it needs something to house it.  The ring, the locket, the diary, etc.  The objects hold no power and once the horcrux is destroyed, the object is useless.  Or at least back to what it was before.  The horcrux also wields a certain amount of power over someone who is wearing it (like the locket) or using it (like the diary).  The locket horcrux affected Harry and Ron in a similar way to the Mark affecting Dean.  They didn't become killing machines, but it altered their personalities a bit, amplifying unpleasant thoughts and feelings.  Meanwhile, the diary almost killed Ginny.

 

The horcrux idea makes sense imo. In that case, though, would they be horcruxes for Lucifer? Is Dean channeling him or his power? Are the MoC and Blade some way of keeping him tied to earth/out of Hell?

[SueB]

I think Dean is channelling Luci-Juice.

[Demented Daisy]

Well, I suppose you could say that:

 

Dean -- Harry

The Mark -- the lightning bolt scar horcrux

Lucifer -- Voldemort

 

I'd say that the Mark doesn't necessarily hold a piece of Lucifer's soul, but it is certainly imbibed with some of his power.  Harry was able to do certain things because he housed a Voldemort horcrux, but he also had enough love in his heart that the horcrux didn't corrupt him.

 

Now, I'm not saying that love will break the Mark's hold on Dean, but....  Hmmm.  Off to the Spec thread.  ;-)

[SueB]

Good analogy. Of course, Death has confirmed you can't divide a soul, so, different laws than Harry Potter. But I think the analogy holds.

[Demented Daisy]

I had forgotten about that.  So, yeah, definitely doesn't hold Lucifer's soul.  

 

Do angels have souls?

[supposebly]

They have grace. But if I wanted to make sense of the soul stuff, I would say, the more souls in heaven, the more power the angels have.

 

Unless you have a superpowered angel tablet like Metatron. How did that work again?

[SueB]

Not in the Supernatural universe**. Angels have 'grace' as a source of power and humanity is unique in that it HAS souls. Demons are human souls twisted in Hell into something evil. Grace appears to be 100% positive while souls appear to have the ability to bend, fold, spindle or mutilate but not break.

**FYI In our universe, it's my understanding that those who believe in Angels (from a religious POV) see them as non-corporeal beings with Free Will (otherwise Luicifer couldn't have rebelled) who are God's messengers. They are spirit, intellect, and will. Not always 'good' as some have clearly gone bad (see Lucifer). Some debate that they are immortals and spirits so they must have souls. Others say souls are unique to humans and represent the immortal part of the humans.

[Demented Daisy]

Not in the Supernatural universe**. Angels have 'grace' as a source of power and humanity is unique in that it HAS souls. Demons are human souls twisted in Hell into something evil. Grace appears to be 100% positive while souls appear to have the ability to bend, fold, spindle or mutilate but not break.

 

See, that's where I got confused in S6.  All the talk of the souls in Purgatory, but they were all monsters.  So monsters have souls, even though they're not human?  What really confused me was:

 

Alpha Vampire: The thing about souls -- If you've got one, of course -- is they're predictable. You die, you go up or down. Where do my kind go?

 

Dean: All right, enough with the sermon, freak.

 

Alpha Vampire: I'm trying to answer the question. Now, when we "freaks" die... where do we go? Not heaven, not hell. So?

 

Dean: Legoland?

 

Alpha Vampire: [sighs] Little rusty on our Dante, boys?

 

Sam: Purgatory.

 

Dean: Purgatory? Purgatory's real?

 

Alpha Vampire: Oh, stupid cattle. [Chuckles] Of course! And it is filled with the soul of every hungry thing like me that ever walked this earth.

 

In his dig at Sam, the Alpha Vamp said that souls either go up or down, but where do monsters go?  So, if monsters had souls, they should go to Heaven or Hell when they die.  But they don't, so they have to go to Purgatory... which is filled with the souls of monsters.

 

I assumed, in his muddled way, he meant that "human" souls go up or down.  But monsters aren't human, so their souls have to go to Purgatory.  But we also know that not all monsters are bad, so it was confusing to me that God relegated monsters to Purgatory when they haven't done anything wrong except being born.

 

This show, I swear.

[supposebly]

Well, they are monster souls....;-)

 

Considering that a human can be made a monster in some cases, like a vampire, is the soul dead then? Or does it just become a monster soul that ends up in purgatory?

 

I guess it doesn't matter if you are a nice monster. Last stop is purgatory.

 

Why do they never think this stuff through?

Edited December 20, 2014 by supposebly

[DittyDotDot]

Demented Daisy, on 20 Dec 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

See, that's where I got confused in S6.  All the talk of the souls in Purgatory, but they were all monsters.  So monsters have souls, even though they're not human?

 

I think it still holds true that humans are unique in having the souls. Monsters were humans once. All monsters were supposed to be Eve's warping of humanity into monsters. I think of demons and monsters as very similar things, just one was made by Lucifer and the other made by Eve. The only monsters that weren't derived from humanity are the Leviathans, who were created long before humans anyway. I think the Alpha Vampire is saying he has a soul, but it's not demonically twisted, it's been monsterfied so his soul can't go to the same place as the pure human souls nor can it go the place where bad human souls are--it needs its own place to go. When he says "if you have one" he's specifically referring to Sam there since we just learned that Sam didn't have one. That's my take on it anyway.

 

My head hurts now.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

I think it still holds true that humans are unique in having the souls. Monsters were humans once. All monsters were supposed to be Eve's warping of humanity into monsters. I think of demons and monsters as very similar things, just one was made by Lucifer and the other made by Eve. The only monsters that weren't derived from humanity are the Leviathans, who were created long before humans anyway. I think the Alpha Vampire is saying he has a soul, but it's not demonically twisted, it's been monsterfied so his soul can't go to the same place as the pure human souls nor can it go the place where bad human souls are--it needs its own place to go. When he says "if you have one" he's specifically referring to Sam there since we just learned that Sam didn't have one. That's my take on it anyway.

 

My head hurts now.

 

Were they?  Wow, I don't remember that at all.  Was that in Mommy Dearest?

 

(Sorry about the headache, by the way.)

[DittyDotDot]

Were they?  Wow, I don't remember that at all.  Was that in Mommy Dearest?

 

(Sorry about the headache, by the way.)

 

I think it was mostly in Mommy Dearest. She explained that the Alphas were her children--which I took to be her creation--and she was hanging out in that town, experimenting, to find the perfect monster that would be undetectable to Sam and Dean. But at the end of the dragon episode, the human-skin parchment Bobby's trying to translate calls her the Mother Of All, which again I took to mean she created them. And she created that ridiculous worm thing, too. I also thought Eve was meant to be a Leviathan--she said she was older than angels and Death said God created the Leviathans long before angels and humans. I assumed she was the female version of Lucifer trying to twist daddy's newest creation to her own purposes. I might have reached a bit there, but that's what I thought the show was saying.

[Demented Daisy]

Hmmm.  Interesting.  I remember the bit about being older than the angels and all that, but I never got the idea that she corrupted human souls to create monsters.  Maybe because she's older than humanity.  I wonder what she was doing all that time between her creation and the creation of humanity.

 

I can't help but think it's another example of the show leaping before it looks.  Logically, Eve should be a Leviathan, but her goals were so different from Dick Roman and that lot.  She was content with the status quo -- she makes monsters, monsters turn humans, hunters kill monsters, rinse and repeat.  At least that's what she said.  She had no desire to destroy (or eat) all of humanity until Crowley started messing with her "children".  (ETA  Plus, she has to be killed in a manner different from Dick Roman and the rest of the Leviathan.  So what the hell was she?)

 

Ugh.  Why am I trying to make sense of all this?  ;-)

Edited December 20, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

I got the impression Eve was a Leviathan. In S7 there's some mentions. In Hello, Cruel World, Sam asks Dean if the Leviathan were like Eve. And there was the episode with the Alpha Vampire where the Alpha says Eve was his mother, so the Leviathans should respect the monsters more--or some such bullshit posturing--and Edgar says Eve was whore. I took it that Eve was like Lucifer in the sense she went against the pack. She was probably happy as pie and maybe God's favorite, but then he created angels--which probably weren't that much competition to her--then he creates his favorite creation and she gets jealous and turns them into ugly mutations of themselves as a screw you to God. Maybe she was pissed God locked the Leviathans up in Purgatory, I don't know. The big difference between Lucifer and Eve, in my mind, is, Eve was physically changing humanity and making them ugly on the surface but requiring no "sin" or choice from humanity, Lucifer was trying to corrupt the essence of humanity by taking free will to make sin--making them ugly from the inside out. If that even makes any sense.

 

Its not like the show was explicit in this stuff, just my own personal spin on it. I could be way off on the show's intent here.

[Demented Daisy]

I think that exchange is what confuses me the most.

 

From There Will Be Blood:

ALPHA VAMPIRE
We come from you.

 

EDGAR

Barely.

 

ALPHA VAMPIRE
I am the son of Eve!

 

EDGAR
A pathetic mutt. Hardly one of us. I knew Eve, and honestly... your mommy was a whore.

 

 

So vamps and other monsters might be loosely descended from Leviathan?  Edgar doesn't claim her as one of the Leviathan, but is that because she wasn't, or because he's disowning her, like one would a family member?

 

Then there's the whole egg thing -- her body is still producing eggs, even though it's dead.  So, she birthed monsters, she physically created them, at least during her most recent time on earth.  How does that work, if the monsters have souls that go to Purgatory?

 

I understand the humans that are turned by monsters; they could still have souls.  But if Eve is creating monsters from her own body, and if those monsters have souls, then does that mean that she can create souls?  

 

I hope I am totally misunderstanding something, because this makes no sense to me at all.

[Aeryn13]

As I understand it, purgatory was originally made as a prison for the Leviathans. But technically, they were God`s creation first, he just found them lacking. Now either he created Eve, too, and she went "off the reservation" as well, resulting in getting sent to the same prison or she is some evolutionary fluke coming from the Leviathans. Like a distant genetic cousin.

 

If the Leviathans have souls, then it could mean Eve had one, too. If it works through simple reproduction - human have souls, humans have babies, those babies have also souls and so on and so forth, why would that not work for Eve? If she had one, all her offspring could have them, too. At first I think they all lived in Purgatory but more and more of her kids found a way back, especially the Alphas who procreated further on Earth. Only when they die, they go back "home" aka Purgatory. When Eve still lived there, I think Purgatory was populated by three kinds, Leviathans, the souls of dead monsters and whatever live offspring Eve still had there.

 

By killing Eve, Dean actually dealt a pretty big blow to the monster "species". No new subsets can be created. The number there is right now is finite. Of course the existing ones can procreate and make more but I`m guessing no "reinforcements" from Purgatory. Eve once said she was okay with the existing system, her kids killed some humans, the hunters killed some of them, balance.

 

What puzzles me is Cole. His father was apparently a creature of some unknown kind. Lets say the mother was human. If Cole was a creature as well, I assume he would know about it? Feel some transformations, some urges or whatever? We have seen some "halfblood" monsters before, the Rugaru was one and he found out alright. Shapeshifter have kids who turn out shifters as well. In all these cases, the "monster" gene seems to be the dominant one yet in Cole`s case it was recessive? How else would he be human.

 

I know, I know, the answer I`m looking for is: the writers didn`t even put half a thought into those things other than whatever they considered a wow-factor for five seconds. 

Edited December 20, 2014 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I understand the humans that are turned by monsters; they could still have souls.  But if Eve is creating monsters from her own body, and if those monsters have souls, then does that mean that she can create souls? 

 

I guess I never thought she birthed them in the sense she physically gestated them. I'm thinking she laid the eggs and then planted them in human hosts and then sat back an watched what happened--kinda like with the horrible worm thing she created. I don't think monsters are genetically Leviathan, but mutated humans. And Edgar's "barely" indicates to me that he didn't think they were genetically similar either.  I just assumed Eve was a Leviathan because of her age and the way she could shift and such, but really nothing in the show has ever stated this explicitly. Again this is only my whack-a-do interpretation and trying to make sense of things the show never bothered to fully explain themselves. It's not likely to make a heck of a lot of sense either--except maybe to my own whack-a-do self.

[Demented Daisy]

Heh.  Well, I'm trying to apply logic and we know how well that works with this show, don't we?  ;-)

[rue721]

I assumed, in his muddled way, he meant that "human" souls go up or down.  But monsters aren't human, so their souls have to go to Purgatory.  But we also know that not all monsters are bad, so it was confusing to me that God relegated monsters to Purgatory when they haven't done anything wrong except being born.

 

I think that monsters, like faeries, are on sort of another plane of existence that follows a different logic than the human world does. Maybe human ideals of "good" or "bad" are irrelevant to monsters, because the logic of what's good or bad is different for them, like is true of faeries?

 

I'd say that the Mark doesn't necessarily hold a piece of Lucifer's soul, but it is certainly imbibed with some of his power.  Harry was able to do certain things because he housed a Voldemort horcrux, but he also had enough love in his heart that the horcrux didn't corrupt him.

 

This makes sense, imo, but it also makes me wonder what the specific costs to the channeling Lucifer's power are?

 

The demon thing seems like it just goes hand-in-hand with having the Mark, I don't think that it's a cost for channeling the power so much as it's a physical necessity since a human body can't channel that kind of power for long. Dean said he was a Knight of Hell after he'd been "cured," and something must be protecting him (physically) right now because even though he's "cured," he's not coughing up his guts or anything anymore. So I think something about having the MoC physically changed him, and imo becoming a demon was part of that.

 

It seems like another shoe is going to drop, because that power and protection has to have a really big price imo, and since demons generally like being demons and don't want to be human again, I don't think that becoming a demon is likely to be it.

[catrox14]

So I was rewatching all of s9 the past couple of days for reasons.  And when it got to Bloodlines I decided to give it another chance.  And honestly, if they would have just stuck with it being about Ennis trying to figure out his GF's murder and the discovery of monsters without all the stupid 5 monster families bullshit, it wouldn't have been half-bad.  I wouldn't mind seeing Ennis come back and maybe even work with Cole as two new hunters....

[DittyDotDot]

From the Malleus Maleficarum thread...

 

catrox14, on 29 Dec 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

I find it interesting that Sam was supposed to be  "wrong" for s3, because I thought Sam was more kind, more empathetic, more supportive, less arrogant, less snarky, less judgemental in s3.  Was that supposed to be considered "wrong" or did they just scrap it all together after Sin City:"?

 

The idea that he was more hard-edged with his kills and willing to kill humans is what I think they were pushing as something was wrong with Sam. Killing that demon chick in Sin City somehow appeared "cold" to Dean--although, I didn't see it as such. He was willing to kill Gordon in Fresh Blood rather than find another human solution and some think his killing Gordon with the razor wire was "cold", but I didn't. His willingness to kill the witches here seemed somewhat unusual for Sam even though I personally have no objection to it. And I think his killing of Jeremy in Dream A Little Dream Of Me is supposed to be seen as cold, but again, it doesn't bother me. It's both him accepting they can kill humans coupled with the more cold-hearted nature of the kills and then having other characters comment about how it was unusual or cold. I personally have no objections to his kills, but Sam has always struggled with the idea of killing in general in the past and doesn't seem like he's struggling with it at all in S3.

 

My understanding is they didn't drop it until they came back from the writer's strike and realized they only had a few episodes to wrap up Dean's Hell-deal storyline and didn't have enough time to really service the something-is-wrong-with-Sam storyline. They also had some plans for developing the Campbell backstory more as well. I actually think it worked out for the best, but then again I always applaud them for sending Dean to Hell, so...

Edited December 29, 2014 by DittyDotDot