All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[rue721]

But what I wonder about is what others have mentioned. If Dean really did die, then what if it's demon!Dean trying to get out and he wants Cas to kill him to unleash the demon again. The morbid side of me really does want this because if it's a choice between Door #1 which has  a murder addictted, irredeemable, controlled by the Mark!Dean 1.0 with no apparent cure unless it comes via Sam or Cas or gods forbid Crowley  or Door #2 with a badass demon!Dean who kills whoever he wants for whatever reasons he wants and has no fucks to give but his own? .I'll take door number two

 

I don't think that demon!Dean is trying to get Cas to kill him to unleash the demon again, because if all it took was being killed to bring the demon back, couldn't he just kill himself? Why would he need Cas to do it? He might need Crowley in order to unleash the demon somehow, though -- Idk what Crowley did after Dean died in the S9 finale, but it seemed like he did something or other to help Dean transition into a demon, because then didn't he go off on some speech about how Demon!Dean should be grateful? I actually wonder if he needs the First Blade. Or even what will happen if he gets the FB again in general.

 

The show seems to me like it's dropping a lot of hints that Dean is the Big Bad this season and that we will be seeing the demon again. That talk with Cas about how Cas should kill Dean if things go awry seemed like an anvil that Cas *will* face the choice of whether to save/kill/ignore (demon!)Dean. Personally, I was very suspicious when Dean was first "cured," because I just couldn't believe that Sam and Cas would believe that because the look on Dean's face changed he was cured. If he could slip the cuffs and the devil's trap with just part of a cure, then even the holy water not smoking and burning doesn't necessarily mean he was cured completely imo. He's also still able to do things he couldn't as a regular human man (like kill a bunch of people very quickly). But on the other hand, he doesn't heal anymore, which imo is the best proof that he's not a demon now, since he was healing almost instantaneously when he was a demon. Anyway, at this point, I think that Dean *does* have at least some humanity, though maybe he's on the same "cured" continuum as Crowley is, but further along toward the human side of things? I don't think that he's running a con right now or anything like that, but I also think the show is being very obvious that he's also not himself -- something is obviously still wrong, and it seems worse imo than when it was *only* the MoC. He was fundamentally in control of himself with the MoC previous to becoming a demon, even though his impulses weren't quite the same as usual and he was more bloodthirsty than usual, etc.

 

The other strange thing is that in this past episode, when he massacred all those men so that they were arranged just like the massacre he was seeing in his mind, it reminded me of the post-Purgatory flashbacks, when he would be seeing himself interrogating some monster and then he'd interrogate a human being in the same way. The post-Purgatory flashbacks were just his head skipping a beat, not a loss of his humanity. So I wonder if the problem right now isn't him actually being a demon but rather being traumatized from when he was one or being traumatized in aggregate from all of his life. I actually wonder about trauma in general right now w/r/t his story, because it still kind of blows my mind that his soul could be made into a demon without being tortured in Hell for a long time. Especially since his soul *has* been tortured in Hell before, so evidently he can take a lot of abuse and still come back from it without his soul being compromised, it's not like he's that vulnerable to Hell's specific tortures. I keep coming back to, the time he spent on Earth being torture somehow in a way that compromised his soul (which the MoC and Crowley obviously helped along, I don't think he would ever have become a demon otherwise or anything). It's so mysterious to me how he became a demon in the first place, and I would think that's a pretty essential thing to know, if they're going to stop him from becoming a demon again *or* if Crowley or Demon!Dean does want him to become a demon again.

 

I don't think that JA has lied at all about demon!Dean being done, but actors don't see scripts *that* far ahead (not least because scripts aren't written that far ahead anyway), so there's only so much he is/was going to even know about what's going to happen on the series. So I don't put a whole lot of stock into what he (or any actor) says about what will/won't happen more than a few eps ahead tbh -- they just aren't likely to know imo.

[catrox14]

I don't think that demon!Dean is trying to get Cas to kill him to unleash the demon again, because if all it took was being killed to bring the demon back, couldn't he just kill himself? Why would he need Cas to do it? He might need Crowley in order to unleash the demon somehow, though -- Idk what Crowley did after Dean died in the S9 finale, but it seemed like he did something or other to help Dean transition into a demon, because then didn't he go off on some speech about how Demon!Dean should be grateful? I actually wonder if he needs the First Blade. Or even what will happen if he gets the FB again in general.

 

 

The Mark wouldn't let Cain stay dead when he tried to kill himself. I think it might take extraordinary power to actually kill post-demon!Dean which is what Cas possseses. That would also explain why Dean told Cas to not let Sam stop him from killing him.

 

I agree that something is missing from why Dean was resurrected as a demon which is why I mentioned upthread that Dean's Hell time SHOULD be a factor as to why he was able to be turned into a demon. It seems to me that if all it took was the MoC and the First Blade and death to make someone an uber powerful demon I would think Crowley would have wanted to become that powerful demon of his own accord but he wanted to drag Dean down to do it. Why? Other than personal vengeance.

[rue721]

I agree that something is missing from why Dean was resurrected as a demon which is why I mentioned upthread that Dean's Hell time SHOULD be a factor as to why he was able to be turned into a demon. It seems to me that if all it took was the MoC and the First Blade and death to make someone an uber powerful demon I would think Crowley would have wanted to become that powerful demon of his own accord but he wanted to drag Dean down to do it. Why? Other than personal vengeance.

 

I've wondered about Crowley, too. But I think maybe he wanted to use Dean to get the MoC from Cain, because he knew Cain wouldn't give it to Crowley directly. Whereas I do think that Crowley does have a shot at getting it from Dean, depending on the context. Imo Crowley is likely to be running some kind of long con, like trying to worm his way into Dean's trust/affections so that when he offers to do him the "favor" of taking the MoC, Dean will take him up on it. For all I know, his mother is part of that con, in that he's going to use her to make himself look weak and human, to make it more credible that he can be trusted with the MoC. I had thought that him wanting the First Blade in return for turning Dean over to Sam was so that he could keep leverage over Dean, but maybe it's just for safekeeping for when he gets the Mark?!

 

ETA:

 

Or, he could be planning to prove himself "worthy" of the Mark by "sacrificing" himself or his (hypothetical) soul for his mother. A la Cain sacrificing his for Abel, and Dean sacrificing his soul for Sam.

 

Not to harp and harp and harp, but Crowley also has access to and even some (logistical, anyway) control over Lucifer at this point. And Lucifer's the one who made the MoC, and the one who threatened both Abel and Sam. Idk, that just feels like a very major card for Crowley to just hold and never actually play. Adam's also in the cage still. As long as we're talking about people sacrificing their souls for their brothers, Adam also counts as someone who did that (for Dean), and also, maybe one of the Winchesters could be convinced to sacrifice something or other for him even at this late date?

Edited December 14, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

IIRC,  Adam didn't give a shit about the Winchester brothers. Zachariah convinced Adam that Dean and Sam were assholes and that he HAD to do it save the world and so he could see his mother again. So to me that wasn't FOR Dean at all. IIRC, Adam realized that he had been played by Zachariah once he was in the Green Room, and that was to get Dean to the Green Room because Zachariah was banking Dean not being able to let Adam be the vessel.

Edited December 14, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

IIRC,  Adam didn't give a shit about the Winchester brothers. Zachariah convinced Adam that Dean and Sam were assholes and that he HAD to do it save the world and so he could see his mother again. So to me that wasn't FOR Dean at all. It was almost in spite of Dean. Zachariah played Adam to get Dean to the Green Room because he was banking Dean not being able to let Adam be the vessel. 

 

IA that Adam wasn't trying to save Dean in particular, but technically Adam still said yes and Dean didn't have to. So if sacrificing your soul for your brother's sake is the eligibility criteria for getting the MoC, then I think that Adam would be eligible. If Sam were to sacrifice himself for Adam, he would be, too, imo. I'm also wondering if Crowley could be using Adam as part of a backup or secret plan or as leverage. Like, if Adam has been tortured for long enough that he's a demon anyway, maybe he'd be easier for Crowley to control, so he'd want to swap Sam or Dean for Adam and get Adam the MoC. Or maybe Dean would want to swap places with Adam in order to get into the Cage and get access to Lucifer, since Lucifer is probably the only one who can destroy the MoC for good instead of just shifting it to someone else. Idk, my point is just basically that Lucifer and Adam might be players in a game with the MoC, too. Also, do you remember what all happened to Abel? Is he just chilling in heaven or something now?

[catrox14]

Adam was saying yes because he wanted to see his mom more than anything. And then Zachariah told him that he wasn't really worthy anymore so his "sacrifice" was never really a sacrifice. He was doing it to get something in exchange. 

 

I still don't get how Adam became the Vessel when Dean sort of said yes and Michael wanted him more than Adam but Adam was trapped in the Green Room and had essentially revoked his consent just like Dean did. So why did Adam end up as Michael's vessel??

 

As to Abel, yes it would seem Abel is just chillin in heaven

Edited December 14, 2014 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I have to believe even this show wouldn`t sink so low as to swap Adam out for Dean and thus kick Dean out of his own story AGAIN. I can totally see the Dean character being screwed over yet again but using the same bit part character for it would certainly take balls. 

[AwesomO4000]

Aeryn13, I never said that Dean's quests were equivalent to Sam's. I said that Sam's one win was pretty much what his character had. * Dean has more than just his quests. He has saves of Sam and Castiel. He doesn't have the major betrayals to overcome that Sam and Castiel have. Dean's one what might be considered a "betrayal" - the Gadreel incident -  Sam would also do, and apparently did worse. So taking everything together cumulatively, things are more equivalent for me. (For me it's like say on one side, there is a diamond while on the other side there are some emeralds, rubies, and pearls - different but the end result is that they are worth about the same - weird analogy for me, since I don't even like precious gems. I prefer actual "rocks" and dichoric glass.)

 

You have to also remember that I saw the end of "Swan Song" differently than you did in that I thought Dean being there was important and, relatedly, I thought Lucifer had a part in beating himself. In other words, Sam could have all the power in the world, but if not for Lucifer's arrogance and jealousy that he would never have his own brother's love and respect, there would not have been a win. All the parallels in the narrative - the talk of "walking off the chess board" and defying "Dad's plan" that paralleled John's "save Sam or kill him" led me to that conclusion. Dean wouldn't kill Sam and vowed to save him another way and loved him and supported him anyway despite his faults = Dean loved and supported Sam. Michael refused to defy God's order = Michael didn't love or support Lucifer, and Lucifer seeing the flashbacks slammed this home for him. The whole dynamic is different with how I saw it.

 

* And I don't consider that trial arc much of a good thing for Sam's character (I mean, he needed major help on almost every trial and then he wimped out on finishing it. How is that a positive story arc?) The only way it was somewhat good is that it was better than the Sam "hit a dog" and basically takes the coward's way out by abandoning Dean to purgatory, Kevin to potential torture and death by Crowley, and the world at large to leviathans so that he could play house arc.

 

However, I think you have a good chance to get your wish, Sam saving his brother because said brother is apparently too weak and so easily falls to evil and Sam`s save this time will not be tarnished in any way. There will probably be some dialogue on how Sam had the MOC, he would of course be able to control it and how Dean wished he would only be as awesome as Sam. I dread it already

 

Dean falling to the mark of Cain doesn't to me seem any weaker than Sam getting completely influenced by demon blood so much so that he betrayed Dean in the process. Sam willingly drank the blood, knowing it would likely have bad consequences. Sam also easily falls to evil; he believed Ruby. Dean took on the mark without knowing the consequences for a worthy goal - which at least he partly accomplished. Sam even screwed up what he took on the demon blood for in the first place so that defeating Lucifer was just as much him fixing his own mistake as it was saving the world. Yes, Abaddon was partially their fault, but Dean also helped distract Metatron and so therefor helped with his defeat, whereas Sam was knocked unconscious for that fight.

 

And I highly doubt there will be any dialogue concerning if Sam had the mark he'd be able to control it. He generally couldn't control himself on demon blood, so to me that would make no sense. If anything there'd more likely be something concerning how supposedly the power would go to Sam's head.

 

Heck, stuff like Head!Bobby putting Dean in his place about any delusions of grandeur in helping with a trial and then have Sam validated by Death himself who came to fangirl? That is just hammering it home.

 

 

There's no evidence that was really even Death. It was just as likely a delusion of Sam's, just like head Bobby and head Dean who were arguing opposite sides of the live or die equation.

 

 

So yes, we'll have to agree to disagree since in addition to seeing the characters' quests and roles differently, we seem to have different perceptions of what heroic is. I also tend to think that letting a character have a win only to pretty much trash that character later somewhat defeats the purpose of giving him a heroic arc in the first place, so my perception of what the show does is maybe more fluid and changing.

[catrox14]

I don't think even Dean-leaning fans think Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam without his informed consent is a good or heroic thing. It was a misguided act of love but was still an enormous violation of Sam's agency and IMO the show did not want us to think it was okay on any level. I think Sam's speech in the Purge was intended to be a condemnation of Dean's actions and it trashed his character. Now whether that landed with the audience is a different story but IMO it was intended to condemn Dean and support Sam. Dean was responsible for Kevin's death in a round about way. He took on a curse because of his actions. He became a literal demon for his actions.  So to me that is the ultimate character assassination (despite my enjoyment of Demon!Dean it was still character assassination IMO)

[rue721]

Adam was saying yes because he wanted to see his mom more than anything. And then Zachariah told him that he wasn't really worthy anymore so his "sacrifice" was never really a sacrifice. He was doing it to get something in exchange. 

 

Do his intentions matter in that way, though? I think that, if an essential part of what qualifies someone to take on the MoC is that they sacrifice their own soul for their brother's, then by stepping in to take Dean's place as Michael's vessel, whatever his reason, Adam would be qualified (in that respect anyway) to take on the MoC. It's probably irrelevant, though, because if Adam does come into play, I think what is more likely to happen is that Dean will want to go into the Cage and therefore decides to swap places with Adam.

 

I don't think that Dean is going to pass the MoC to anyone willingly in any case. If he's human, I don't think he'd be willing to curse someone that way, and if he's a demon, I don't think he'd be willing to give up the power. But he clearly can't just keep the MoC and wonder the earth indefinitely, so he'll have to try and destroy it somehow. Imo his most practical plan to do that would be for him to go into the Cage, because in the best case scenario, he can get rid of the MoC via Lucifer, and worse case scenario, he'd be contained in the Cage and therefore unable to hurt anyone else even if he does become a demon again. Since Adam's the one in there now and Adam and Dean were the ones who could both be Michael's vessel, I think the best shot Dean has of getting into the Cage in the first place is to negotiate a swap between himself and Adam. Plus, that has the added bonus of rescuing Adam. Though what state Adam is in now, Idk, but he would be better off out of the Cage in any case.

 

Tbh, trying to go into the Cage makes more sense to me anyway than the idea of Cas somehow throwing him into the sun or whatever. If Cas kills him, he'll just die and his soul would probably become a demon again or at least get sent to Hell and put under Crowley's control, so what would even be the point of that? It wouldn't stop what Dean (at least ostensibly but imo in reality) wants to stop -- becoming a demon again. It would just put him in a worse position than he's in even now.

 

 

So to me that is the ultimate character assassination (despite my enjoyment of Demon!Dean it was still character assassination IMO)

 

I don't think that demon!Dean is character assassination, because a character's soul without its humanity isn't actually the character. Just like soulless!Sam wasn't *really* Sam because he was missing something essential to Sam (his soul), imo demon!Dean isn't *really* Dean because he's missing something essential to Dean (his humanity). That's also why I find soulless!Sam and demon!Dean interesting -- because of how they contrast with actual!Sam and actual!Dean. I think it's interesting to see what parts of their personalities or how their minds work stay even when their soul or their humanity is gone, and what parts or ways of thinking are gone along with it.

 

And I highly doubt there will be any dialogue concerning if Sam had the mark he'd be able to control it. He generally couldn't control himself on demon blood, so to me that would make no sense. If anything there'd more likely be something concerning how supposedly the power would go to Sam's head.

 

I have this ridiculous fangirl wish that demon!Dean will come back, and somehow he'll get Sam to drink his blood in order to make Sam his evil!partner-in-crime just like they're partners-in-crime when they're not demons/demon-blood-drunk. It doesn't really make sense to me that demon!Dean wouldn't want Sam to join him in painting the town red. Wouldn't he be like, "you know what would be more fun than traveling around alone or with someone boring like Crowley? if I were doing this with my bff, Sam!" Plus, Sam is actually at his best when he's evil(ish) anyway, because at his worst, he's clever and hilariously (imo) obnoxious. Also, it would be kind of a cruel move on demon!Dean's part to corrupt Sam like that (which I would think a demon would think was an additional perk) AND it would be practical for him since Sam is apparently his biggest threat (since Sam was the one who ruined things for demon!Dean this past time, anyway).

 

I'm not really worried about what demon!Dean does in terms of "ruining" Dean as a character, because I think of them as basically separate characters anyway, and because I have no doubt that demon!Dean is temporary and the show will ultimately bring actual!Dean. I actually am surprised at how much the show is pulling its punches (at least so far) in terms of demon!Dean. Idk about fans in general, but I've been watching Dean basically my entire adulthood, I'm not going to suddenly start hating him now, let alone for something that not-even-actual-Dean does.

 

Though! One thing I am worried about in terms of demon!Dean sticking around is that JA tends to be SO consistent in how he plays Dean that once Dean changes in some way or goes through something, JA's performance reflects that change or that experience *forever.* Sometimes I wish he weren't so consistent. As a minor example, I don't really need Dean to *still* use the Batman Voice, but I've given up hope that it's going to ever go away. Sometimes I wish that JA would push the reset button a little bit. But what can ya do! He makes better choices for the character than I ever would, so gotta take the good with the bad.

 

ETA:

 

Assuming demon!Dean is lurking in there IMO he hates Sam.  I cannot fathom any scenario that demon!Dean wants anything to do with Sam considering how he left him and stayed away from him. He doesn't want to be responsible for and to anyone. He wasn't willing to save Sam's life from Cole. When Sam found Dean he threatened to rip his throat out with his teeth. He was pissed off at being un-demoned and  tried to kill Sam in the LoL.  He doesn't want anyone to be his partner, much less Sam.  I just can't see that happening and I don't want it either.

 

I think that's what they're going for, it just seems so weird to me that as a demon, Dean would rather spend his time doing boring things like spending time with Crowley and singing karaoke than spend his time with (evil!)Sam doing (evil!)stuff that Sam is good at and likes but Crowley isn't and doesn't particularly, like fighting and killing things. Even messing with Sam's head seems like it would be more fun and more of a challenge than messing with Cole's or whoever's.

 

But ultimately, you're right, I don't actually want to see Sam get tormented by demon!Dean. Likely, it wouldn't be fun or entertaining, it would just be disturbing and sad. And that probably would be edging closer to "unforgivable" territory anyway for demon!Dean, compared to stuff like beating up Crowley or whatever, so they were going to be loathe to go there. So maybe it's for the best!

Edited December 15, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

I have this ridiculous fangirl wish that demon!Dean will come back, and somehow he'll get Sam to drink his blood in order to make Sam his evil!partner-in-crime just like they're partners-in-crime when they're not demons/demon-blood-drunk. It doesn't really make sense to me that demon!Dean wouldn't want Sam to join him in painting the town red. Wouldn't he be like, "you know what would be more fun than traveling around alone or with someone boring like Crowley? if I were doing this with my bff, Sam!" Plus, Sam is actually at his best when he's evil(ish) anyway, because at his worst, he's clever and hilariously (imo) obnoxious. Also, it would be kind of a cruel move on demon!Dean's part to corrupt Sam like that (which I would think a demon would think was an additional perk) AND it would be practical for him since Sam is apparently his biggest threat (since Sam was the one who ruined things for demon!Dean this past time, anyway).

 

 

 

Assuming demon!Dean is lurking in there IMO he hates Sam.  I cannot fathom any scenario that demon!Dean wants anything to do with Sam considering how he left him and stayed away from him. He doesn't want to be responsible for and to anyone. He wasn't willing to save Sam's life from Cole. When Sam found Dean he threatened to rip his throat out with his teeth. He was pissed off at being un-demoned and  tried to kill Sam in the LoL.  He doesn't want anyone to be his partner, much less Sam.  I just can't see that happening and I don't want it either. 

 

IMO Cas is the biggest threat to Dean because he's the only one with the power to smite Dean.  I'm not even sure Crowley can do that. 

 

To me it is character assassination because they turned Dean into his worst nightmare. It's cruel and unusual punishment IMO.

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

To be honest, Dean's little personal journey feels like Sam's journey just flopped around and it's ground already treaded once before, so it isn't landing for me either.

 

I think that they're different journeys. Imo, Sam's journey with the demon blood in S4 was about pride and not understanding where he belongs in the world. It's basically a retelling of Lucifer's fall. I think that Dean's journey has always been about sacrifice and whether the ends justify the means.

 

The question that the MoC storyline is asking, imo, is whether it's OK to sacrifice one person to save another or even to save many. Dean has gone back and forth on that, obviously. I always go back to that line in Jus in Bello, when Henriksen says, "We don't sacrifice people. We do that, we’re no better than them." On the one hand, Dean seemed to agree wholeheartedly, but on the other, he was also winding down his time before his Crossroads deal came due and he got sent to Hell to keep Sam alive. There's always been tension around that question on this show, imo. When Dean tried to talk Sam out of dying in order to complete the Trials, imo he was saying that it's not OK to sacrifice a person for someone else's gain -- even the world's gain, and even though that's arguable, I do think that's a valid moral stance. On the other hand, when Dean decided to take the MoC, he was knowingly sacrificing himself for what he saw as the greater good. The same issue was going on back in the day, when on the one hand, Dean hated his father's choice to damn himself so Dean could live, but on the other then chose to damn himself so Sam could live. Fundamentally, I think that's the crux of the issue Dean has with John. On the one hand, imo Dean is telling the truth when he says things like that he loved his father with all he had and that he believes that John tried to raise them right, but on the other hand, the sacrifices that John decided their family and his sons in particular would make in order to hunt down Mary's killer and to hunt in general were immense, and Dean seems ambivalent at best over whether John choosing to sacrifice them that way was forgivable/right. I guess how it seems to me is that Dean is figuring out whether he believes the categorical imperative is correct and whether it's ever morally acceptable for a person (including himself) to be treated merely as a means rather than an end. Tbh I feel like Dean's series-long story could be read as a long interrogation of lots of different aspects of Kant's philosophy, lol. But I'll leave that to someone who knows more about Kant than I do. Anyway, imo, all those issues/questions play very differently in Year 10 of the show, when Dean is in his mid-thirties, than they did in Year 2, when Dean was in his mid-twenties, so I'm actually interested in them still getting explored. YMMV though.

 

I really don't know how to make it work for me, all I know is this episode did not feel like Supernatural to me. Which, maybe it's a good thing, maybe Supernatural needs to become something totally new to survive at this point? The curmudgeon in me wants to yell at those damn kids for trampling over my beautiful green lawn and leaving their candy wrappers everywhere; but maybe I just forgot to water my lawn and the candy wrappers were from my own garbage that got knocked over by some raccoons? ;)

 

IA that this episode didn't feel like SPN. It felt like pod-person!SPN to me, and vaguely creepy in an uncanny-valley-esque kind of way. Which is similar to a lot of episodes from S8 on, imo. But: 

1. Rage, rage against they dying of the light. :P

2. Other than in the case of severe mismanagement on the part of the people actually making it, imo SPN isn't actually in any danger of not surviving. Afaik, it's a money-maker, since it's an anchor show with relatively high ratings and a massively loyal audience. The show is probably going to get produced until the leads refuse to do it anymore, and to try and mitigate even the risk that the leads' refusal to continue will "prematurely" end the show is what's causing the desperation to make some sort of spin-off happen imo. So I actually don't think that practical concerns are driving the change (in tone, in atmosphere, in characterization, etc), I think it's Carver's artistic vision for the show that's driving that. But of course what do I know, that's just my personal guess.

[SueB]

 

I still don't get how Adam became the Vessel when Dean sort of said yes and Michael wanted him more than Adam but Adam was trapped in the Green Room and had essentially revoked his consent just like Dean did. So why did Adam end up as Michael's vessel??

Simple, once Micheal decided to go with Adam, he just dragged his mother's ghost in front of Adam and started torturing. I think Adam would say yes versus let his mother suffer. Unlike Dean, who revoked thinking he could take out Zach and get the boys out of the room, Adam had no play at that point. And he just saw his brother come to his rescue KNOWING it was a trap. Adam seemed both pragmatic and stubborn like Winchester. He was prepared for the Apocalypse fallout first time around. He may be pissed at them but I don't think he'd fight Micheal after they tried and failed to save him.

[catrox14]

 

Simple, once Micheal decided to go with Adam, he just dragged his mother's ghost in front of Adam and started torturing. I think Adam would say yes versus let his mother suffer. Unlike Dean, who revoked thinking he could take out Zach and get the boys out of the room, Adam had no play at that point. And he just saw his brother come to his rescue KNOWING it was a trap. Adam seemed both pragmaticand stubborn like Winchester. He was prepared for the Apocalypse fallout first time around. He may be pissed at them but I don't think he'd fight Micheal after they tried and failed to save him.

 

 My head!canon is that Michael just decided that half consent was all he needed and boom done.  Which kind of goes along with Cas possessing an 11 or 12 year old Claire. She didn't have legal capacity to make that decision.   I think the consent thing is way more dubious now than then. s

[SueB]

 

On the one hand, Dean seemed to agree wholeheartedly, but on the other, he was also winding down his time before his Crossroads deal came due and he got sent to Hell to keep Sam alive. There's always been tension around that question on this show, imo. When Dean tried to talk Sam out of dying in order to complete the Trials, imo he was saying that it's not OK to sacrifice a person for someone else's gain -- even the world's gain, and even though that's arguable, I do think that's a valid moral stance.

I also don't think Dean's journey and Sam's journey are the same.  I really like this line of reasoning you've brought up.  As I've rambled on elsewhere, closing the Gates of Hell is not the same as stopping the Apocalypse.  Closing the Gates was a change of status quo.  Stopping the Apocalypse was preserving status quo.  And I still think that they didn't know enough to pull that lever. (Insert Yzma's voice: "Why do we even HAVE that lever?"**)

 

I think Sam and Dean previously had the position that sacrificing themselves to save the world was always the right choice.  But unlike making things better, Abbadon in charge of Hell seemed like a more active threat to the world.  But I'm not sure Dean was working that angle when he took on the Mark. I would argue Dean was guilty of the Angel approach (as in Josh Whedon's "Angel" the Series, not multidimensional beings of celestial intent). He was looking for a BIG save to recover from a BIG screw-up (the death of Kevin).   If Dean had know the consequence; him as a free-range Knight of Hell, killing whoever he felt deserved it, I think he'd see that as nearly as bad as nutty Abbadon. Now she wanted world conquest and he didn't. But he's frankly more dangerous with the Blade then she was.  If he went full-on demon and lost what control he had.... man. Look out. 

 

And I think THAT's why he wanted Cas to take him out.  Without being arrogant, Dean probably realizes we're approaching closer to world saving versus world gain when it comes to stopping a free-range Demon!Dean. 

 

So...he's more than happy to get smited/thrown into the sun rather than inflict his Demon self on the planet.  Heck, he feels lost already.  So, going back to your question:

 

The question that the MoC storyline is asking, imo, is whether it's OK to sacrifice one person to save another or even to save many.

 

I think Dean's pretty firm on "yes" on everyone else's needs outweighs his.  But if the ONLY way to end Dean was to kill Sam as well?  Now...now what would he do?  And what is the show's position on that? 

 

 

**Because really, you wanted to see this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw2B9knw58U

Edited December 15, 2014 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

So to me that is the ultimate character assassination (despite my enjoyment of Demon!Dean it was still character assassination IMO)

 

At least he did it so Sam wouldn't die. And besides Sam admitted that he would do the same thing in the end anyway - after potentially being hypocritically being pissed at Dean for doing it.So all in all,  I'm not sure if Gadreel is a worse character assassination than the Sam "hit a dog" arc. Even if "letting Dean go" (huge euphemism there) was supposedly the right thing to do, that doesn't explain Kevin to me at all... Who Sam saw for sure get nabbed by Crowley, but for some reason Sam just shrugged his shoulders and decided that wasn't his problem. In my opinion, that is the worst character assassination they did on this show or at the very least a tie, because geesh.

 

I don't think even Dean-leaning fans think Dean allowing an angel to possess Sam without his informed consent is a good or heroic thing. It was a misguided act of love but was still an enormous violation of Sam's agency and IMO the show did not want us to think it was okay on any level.

 

I mostly agree. I was just saying that in terms of influence, the mark storyline is somewhat similar to the demon blood story line. Both of them had a weakness there.

 

Though I'm not so sure about the last part above. I think this show sometimes likes to have its codependency cake and eat it too since by the end of season 9, Sam was vowing he was going to make some deal or something to bring Dean back even when Dean said he didn't want that, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean in terms of the message concerning what Dean did with Gadreel. If Dean's wrong, then so is Sam? Sam shouldn't have tried to save Dean? What? I have no idea anymore.

[catrox14]

I'm not arguing that Sam's character was not assassinated at all. Just saying that to me, Dean has not avoided that same problem.

 

I think Sam was only going to summon Crowley to demand that Crowley get Dean out of the mess that Crowley made and not exchange himself for Dean. Before Dean died, I don't think Sam was ignoring Dean's decision,he just was trying to save him and try to fix the problem with the Mark. I don't think he really comprehended what was happening to Dean and Dean didn't comprehend it until it was too late to really explain it to Sam. I don't see his choice to just not let Dean die as the same as Dean's choice to let an angel possess Sam. Dean becoming a demon was in no way Sam's responsibility.

 

I do think un-demoning Dean against Demon!Dean's will is similar to the Gadreel incident but an inapt parallel.  Because Sam IMO would believe that regular!Dean would never want to stay a demon but who's going to really blame Sam for trying to un-demon!Dean?  Who cares about the demon's will, really?

[SueB]

 

for some reason Sam just shrugged his shoulders and decided that wasn't his problem. In my opinion, that is the worst character assassination they did on this show or at the very least a tie, because geesh.

I think Carver simply failed to demonstrate the obvious: Sam freaked out and did a different version of running (he ran towards a fantasy that was never going to be his life).  Since this is my head canon, I look at the character assassination as meta driven by the new show runner.  And he's trying to dig out of that mess with how he's treating Sam this year. So... I'll accept that as aberrant show behavior and not an actual indictment on Sam.  Hey, it's my mind-party, I can wank if I want to. 

 

Speaking of which: what flavor ice-cream goes with co-dependency cake? This data required for science. :)

[catrox14]

Um. I see a major flaw in your science there, SueB.  It's co-dependency PIE. I mean it's like you don't even KNOW the show. :)

[mertensia]

I love you forever for bringing Yzma into this, SueB . I love that movie.

[AwesomO4000]

(Insert Yzma's voice: "Why do we even HAVE that lever?"**)

 

Hee. I agree with mertensia here. I enjoyed that movie quite a bit. Oh, and despite definitely being an adult, I may or may not have sometimes watched the cartoon series as well. It was so,so wrong sometimes, but I think that's what I liked about it. I say the same thing about some episodes of Supernatural, so good to know I'm consistent. ; ) .

 

But yeah that is a good point - they really didn't seem to think too much about the consequences of closing hell's gates. But I shouldn't think about that too much, because theoretically - unless the spirits are also now getting into heaven through the back door - shouldn't the place be swimming in spirits by now? I think I'd like someone - Castiel is probably the best candidate -  to maybe give a throwaway line on this, please?

[rue721]

I think this show sometimes likes to have its codependency cake and eat it too since by the end of season 9, Sam was vowing he was going to make some deal or something to bring Dean back even when Dean said he didn't want that, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean in terms of the message concerning what Dean did with Gadreel. If Dean's wrong, then so is Sam? Sam shouldn't have tried to save Dean? What? I have no idea anymore.

 

I wonder if/how it comes into it that Dean got so upset and held onto it for so long that Sam claimed he wouldn't have made the same choice about the Gadreel possession for Dean as Dean made for him? Dean has always chosen Sam's life above all else, and he's always taken Sam trying to save him much more in stride than Sam letting him go, so there's at least some reason to believe, imo, that Dean would want Sam to repay the favor and do whatever it takes to save him from the MoC or from being a demon.

 

It's also complicated imo by what death or letting Dean go meant at the end of S9 -- death meant him becoming a monster, and letting him go meant letting him kill people and do who knows what as a monster. When Dean was dying, he said that he wanted to die because he didn't like what he was becoming even at that point, so I think that it wouldn't have been in compliance with his wishes to just let him wonder around as a demon, or as something much worse than what he was before he died, anyway. It's not the same situation as Sam letting Dean go so he could pass on to heaven or to find peace. Plus, there were demon!Dean's victims to consider (possibly including Dean himself, Idk how this demon thing works tbh).

 

Also, this might be sort of beside the point, but imo anything that demon!Dean said about Dean's wishes had no bearing at all, because demon!Dean is not the same entity as Dean. At that point, it's not Dean expressing his own wishes, it's a demon who was made out of Dean-parts expressing *its* wishes in Dean's name. So who cares what it was saying.

 

Personally, I would hope that even if Sam had chosen to let Dean go in general, he would at least have made sure that Dean ended up in Heaven somehow once he was dead. It wouldn't be right to just leave him in Hell or leave him wondering the earth as some cursed monster.

Edited December 15, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

. At that point, it's not Dean expressing his own wishes, it's a demon who was made out of Dean-parts expressing *its* wishes in Dean's name. So who cares what it was saying.

 

The tricky part with demon!Dean is that it really WAS Dean saying it. It was a twisted in his soul Dean, but it was still Dean saying he liked the disease. But neither Sam nor Dean knew he would be turned into a demon upon death. 

 

What bothers me is that neither Sam nor Dean have spent anytime figuring out exactly WHY he was turned into a demon. They are assuming it was solely the Mark and the Blade. Why aren't they trying to find Crowley to find out exactly what it was that made it happen?

[SueB]

 

What bothers me is that neither Sam nor Dean have spent anytime figuring out exactly WHY he was turned into a demon. They are assuming it was solely the Mark and the Blade. Why aren't they trying to find Crowley to find out exactly what it was that made it happen?

1) Because that would make sense

2) Because we needed to let the mytharc story simmer for a few episodes

3) They've been doing it in off-screenville and when they say they've found "nothing" on the Blade, it includes what they assume is how Dean turned into a demon

4) Sam already went down that route (and found nothing extra to help) because the table was littered with human possession books at the end of Soul Survivor

5) Because they despise the little guy and don't want anything to do with him

6) All of the above

7) None of the above

 

Personally #1 seems most applicable, but a case can be made for the rest....

[catrox14]

It's a really bothersome plot hole/contrivance re Crowley. Crowley is the only one that was present when Dean was turned. All the research that Sam did, all the torturing of other demons did not tell him anything. And the research they have been doing together is trying to get rid of the Mark.

Like to me, given all we have ever known about the boys is that they want to know the process of why something mystical happens so they can undo it or stop it from happening again. Sam applied the knowledge of the blood cure but I would think Dean would want to know exactly what it was that made him a demon. The lack of curiosity by these Men of Letters is annoying.

Things the boys should want to know.

1) Did Dean's soul experience more torture in Hell during that time between dying and waking up with black eyes?

2) Does Dean remember what happened after he died and woke up a demon? Will he ever tell if knows?

3) Are they boys ever going to look at each other and say "I think it's about time we find Crowley to force him to explain what the fuck exactly happened here"

4) Dean told Cas he doesn't want to become that thing again..which implies that Dean somehow knows why he turned and the power of angel juice is the only thing that might stop it from happening again. Which begs the question of what does Dean remember... See #1 and 2

5) How would Cas know to smite him without moving into the Lair to keep an eye on Dean 24/7 and is ready to smite at anytime?

6)if Dean was truly cured then why is he talking about being smited by Cas before becoming that thing again? Did he really mean murdering people?

7) if death + First Blade +MoC is what triggers Deans demonity then since the Blade is gone why the call for smiting by Cas?

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

The tricky part with demon!Dean is that it really WAS Dean saying it. It was a twisted in his soul Dean, but it was still Dean saying he liked the disease.

 

I think this depends on what a demon actually is. If demon-ness is something that's added to the soul -- like a poison that's in the soul, imo that's different than if demon-ness means that something's missing from the soul -- like it's the soul with the humanity carved out. If the humanity is gone, then I don't think the entity left is really Dean. That's similar to how Soulless!Sam wasn't actually Sam (and Soulless!Sam was even enough of a different entity from Sam that he saw the soul as a threat to his existence). If the demon-ness is more like a poison, then I guess demon-poisoned-Dean is arguably the same entity as Dean. But should poisoned!Dean's wishes supercede the wishes of unpoisoned!Dean, if those wishes are in conflict? And they will probably be in conflict, just because demons are apparently contrary assholes.

 

There's also the practical problem of a demon not being at all credible, and it therefore being basically impossible to know what its wishes actually are. How much say is it even possible to grant someone that's completely untrustworthy?

 

It's a really bothersome plot hole/contrivance re Crowley. Crowley is the only one that was present when Dean was turned. All the research that Sam did, all the torturing of other demons did not tell him anything. And the research they have been doing together is trying to get rid of the Mark.

 

I KNOW! Crowley is the one who's been moving things along in terms of Dean meeting Cain and getting the Mark, Dean getting the First Blade, Dean coming back from the dead as a demon, what Dean was up to as a demon, Sam coming to pick up demon!Dean, Crowley keeping the First Blade as leverage (for what, Idk)...Obviously Crowley feels he still has some kind of stake in this and he seems to be still working toward some sort of goal, even with Abaddon dead. Also, obviously he knows how Dean became a demon when he died, he's almost flat out said he played a part in it. I'm not salivating for Sam/Dean/Crowley scenes because I actually hate their vibe when they're all together, but it does seem silly that the Winchesters have ostensibly been doing a ton of research and yet none of that research is on how Dean ever became a demon in the first place so that they can at least stop that from happening again. Or so Sam can double check whether Dean actually even is fully cured or not now. I mean, the two obvious people to speak to right now are Cain and Crowley, and next on the list should probably be Lucifer and Abel. Not a big deal, it doesn't have to be all mytharc all the time imo, but it does seem contrived or like they're not really trying.

 

Or maybe they aren't really trying, maybe they've been in denial up till the slaughter at the end of the most recent episode, so they haven't gotten down to brass tacks with the research yet, Idk.

 

1) Did Dean's soul experience more torture in Hell during that time between dying and waking up with black eyes?

2) Does Dean remember what happened after he died and woke up a demon? Will he ever tell if knows?

I don't think Dean would tell in any case, regardless of whether he has anything nefarious to hide. He seems to have a "what happens in Hell, stays in Hell" way of handling it. And if he tells anyone, I don't think it'll be Sam in particular, because he seems to want to save face at least somewhat with him. Imo what's most likely is that Crowley spills at least some tidbits from that transition to Sam in front of Dean in order to embarrass him, because Crowley always likes to make things uncomfortable like that, and Dean might end up adding to those tidbits of information of his own volition later.

 

I'm wondering about that massacre flashback in the most recent episode, though. Where/when was that? He looked completely freaked out during it, but I doubt that he could have *actually* looked that freaked out at the time. Was that supposed to have been from when he was a demon?

 

6)if Dean was truly cured then why is he talking about being smited by Cas before becoming that thing again? Did he really mean murdering people?

7) if death + First Blade +MoC is what triggers Deans demonity then since the Blade is gone why the call for smiting by Cas?

 

The thing with Cas was perplexing imo, because while it's maybe possible that Cas could plausibly destroy him using the bright-light-angel-thing, throwing Dean into a volcano or whatever isn't going to destroy either the Mark or Dean's soul afaik. So I don't see the point. BTW, is Dean still the one carrying the demon-killing blade? I'd think he'd be worried about holding onto it if he actually didn't want to be killed as a demon, but he'd give it to Sam in case of horrible emergency if he'd rather be destroyed than "live" as a demon.

 

I really like your idea about Dean still being dead somehow, because it would be interesting if getting rid of the MoC had a big downside to it, like that it would mean death for Dean. I don't think that he could be dead still from the knife to the heart that originally killed him, because then once he was a demon he had that healing power. But it seems like he doesn't heal anymore, I don't think? Or have we seen whether he does or not?

[Bruinsfan]

Is what Metatron did to the angels now keeping virtuous souls out of Heaven because the reapers have been retconned into grade-Z angels? I would think that Death might take issue with the system for disposition of human souls being disrupted, and do something to fix the mess.

[catrox14]

We haven't seen whether he heals at the exponential rate as in Riechenbach. 

 

He's been beaten pretty badly in Girls, Girls, Girls, but didn't seen too bad off physically. Then in The Things We Left Behind" he had one blow to the head where we saw the blood trickling shortly followed by the apparent kick to the head which one would think would have knocked him out cold for a while at minimum and give him a concussion, but within seconds to a couple of minutes he had apparently slaughtered them all and was in a daze but not dead but blood still on his head.  So in short, I have no idea LOL.

 

I just don't see how Dean being returned to a 100% human form whilst still possessing the Mark would leave him able to withstand the ill effects of the Mark which had been killing him for not killing in s9 finale when he was fully human. I think that points to him having some demon lurking otherwise he should be suffering the same ill effects as before and/or he should have dropped dead.

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Hmm. You know that brings me to a question.  

 

Do reapers only reap souls that are heaven bound?  Because thinking back to Dean dying and being demonized shouldn't Death have been involved? Or was Death just MIA and not caring about reaping Dean since he really most sincerely died.  Does the Mark prevent someone from being reaped? 

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

My theory: Dean didn't actually die, but got turned into something else by the Mark. He appeared dead for a while, but I think of that as the transformation period.

[catrox14]

I hope you are wrong Ditty because to me that would be a huge cheat.

Sam confirmed that Dean had died. Really most sincerely dead. IMO if they make it so Dean didn't die that really reduces the stakes. I would be really disappointed if they go with "just kidding" he didn't die.

[DittyDotDot]

Essentially Dean Winchester was dead--or his body was dead--but his soul was in a state of flux, in my mind.  Crowley said the Mark wouldn't let Cain die, but transformed him into something else--which is what I assumed happened to Dean. Of course Sam thought he was dead, his body was dead and he'd have no way of knowing anything else was happening to Dean's soul.

 

As I typed this, all I kept thinking of is Wesley being "mostly" dead all day in The Princess Bride. ;)

 

 

Hmm. You know that brings me to a question.  Do reapers only reap souls that are heaven bound? 

 

My understanding is Death kills the person and reapers carry the souls to where ever they're going. Ajay had access to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory--I would assume that's true for all reapers. In Death Takes A Holiday, that kid's body was dead before the reaper tried to carry his soul to the other side. Same with In My Time Of Dying, Dean's body was dead, but his spirit (or soul) was refusing to go with Tessa. And, in Appointment In Sumarra, Dean killed the people and Tessa schlepped the souls. And one of the people Dean had to kill that day was supposed to be Hell-bound, was he not? I think reapers carry souls to where ever they're told to.

 

 

Is what Metatron did to the angels now keeping virtuous souls out of Heaven because the reapers have been retconned into grade-Z angels? I would think that Death might take issue with the system for disposition of human souls being disrupted, and do something to fix the mess.

 

I certainly hope that's what happens. I do love me some Death. ;)

[catrox14]

I know the Mark wouldn't let Cain die but I thought Cain was already a demon when he took on the Mark. I thought he made the deal to become a demon to save Abel and then became a knight of hell with Mark which is is why he could withstand the effects of the Mark unlike Dean who as a human being a old not.

So how could the Mark have been simultaneously killing Dean for not killing but keeping him alive after Metatron mortally wounded Dean?

I think he was really most sincerely dead not mostly dead. I think the moment the blade touched his hand it activated the Mark and resurrected him in demon form but I want specifics as to WHY that happened.

[Demented Daisy]

Why Dean came back from the dead or why he came back as a demon?

[Aeryn13]

Since Lucifer is the creator of demons, I think he has some control over the "engineering" process, so to speak. The usual way is to twist a soul over time but maybe he took short-cuts with his first ones, like Lilith as well. Since the Mark came from him and was basically his brand on Cain to finalize their deal, I think it served as another manufactoring short-cut on how to make a demon.

 

After all, Lucifer is/was always an archangel, he never changed species and he never lost his powers, even during imprisonment so he could probably pull off making a demon however he pleased. Now it`s also possible that doing so via Mark takes more power and was therefore not suitable for "mass production". Or - even more likely from what we`ve seen of Lucifer - he was just an ornery brat and liked the normal process with everything that it entailed (the giant finger to his absent daddy figure especially) but wanted something special for Cain. Especially if he knew the guy was a good enough man to try and kill himself to avoid becoming a remorseless killer. What could be crueler to not grant him that relief and instead go for the insta-demonization?

 

So if that is what the Mark does, it is IMO what it would do to everyone who willingly? received it. It insta-transforms to a demon upon death by the power of Lucifer invested in it.    

Edited December 15, 2014 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

Why Dean came back from the dead or why he came back as a demon?

Why he came back as a demon. I need specifics from the show on that process.

[AwesomO4000]

Why aren't they trying to find Crowley to find out exactly what it was that made it happen?

 

Does Sam even know that Crowley was there when Dean became a demon? I don't remember if he figured out that Crowley was present when Dean turned or if he though Crowley just showed up afterwards. As far as Sam knew at first, Crowley didn't show up - since Sam summoned, but Crowley did answer - and he didn't even know that Dean turned into a demon until later. He at first assumed that Crowley had a demon inhabit Dean's body. So he may not even know the details concerning Dean's turning... and then the question becomes what does Dean even remember about his turning? Did he know Crowley saw the process, or did Crowley pretend he just showed up post turning? And as was questioned above, if Dean died and went to hell again for a while, he might remember even less. Also was Dean even entirely dead - Crowley seemed to imply he wasn't so that's somewhat confusing.

 

So yes a lot of questions, but do either of the brothers even know what kind of answers Crowley might have. Dean would seem to know the most, but after all that happened, would he even trust Crowley's answers enough to suggest to Sam that they even question Crowley?

 

 

We haven't seen whether he heals at the exponential rate as in Riechenbach. 

 

He's been beaten pretty badly in Girls, Girls, Girls, but didn't seen too bad off physically. Then in The Things We Left Behind" he had one blow to the head where we saw the blood trickling shortly followed by the apparent kick to the head which one would think would have knocked him out cold for a while at minimum and give him a concussion, but within seconds to a couple of minutes he had apparently slaughtered them all and was in a daze but not dead but blood still on his head.  So in short, I have no idea LOL.

 

I just don't see how Dean being returned to a 100% human form whilst still possessing the Mark would leave him able to withstand the ill effects of the Mark which had been killing him for not killing in s9 finale when he was fully human. I think that points to him having some demon lurking otherwise he should be suffering the same ill effects as before and/or he should have dropped dead.

 

Hmm - I've been thinking on this, and it might be weird, but maybe he started over again after he was undemonized? The mark was killing him as a human, he became demon and bam! he was "cured" of that because being a demon took care of the "sickness" (Like his healing abilities took care of his body), and so even though Dean was human, he was fine until he started killing again, and most specifically it seems that maybe who he kills has an affect on the mark as well? Things really picked up in season 9 when he killed Abaddon (Dean even remarked on it to Crowley: that the bad stuff really started happening after Abaddon), so it seems maybe the bigger the fish, maybe the more the mark wants. After being human again, he killed the shapeshifter and then took some time off and was fairly okay, but in "Girls Girls Girls," if I remember correctly, he killed two demons. Maybe that was what kind of turned the mark back on again so to speak. And now it wants more. Kind of like once it has the good stuff, it develops a taste, and so it either wants quality again or at least quantity.

 

I'm trying to remember exactly who all Dean killed in season 9 before he killed Abbadon. Was she the first demon he killed post-mark? And if so, maybe it's killing a demon - or a higher-ranking demon - that seems to turn the mark "on" and up the physical effects to Dean. That's the theory I have at the present. It's still a work in progress.

[DittyDotDot]

I know the Mark wouldn't let Cain die but I thought Cain was already a demon when he took on the Mark. I thought he made the deal to become a demon to save Abel and then became a knight of hell with Mark which is is why he could withstand the effects of the Mark unlike Dean who as a human being a old not.

 

I guess I need to go look it up, I thought Cain's deal was Abel's soul in heaven for his soul in Hell; Lucifer's caveat was that Cain had to be the one to kill Abel. I thought he was still a human at that point--just a soldier for Lucifer--but didn't like what the Mark was doing to him so he tried killing himself and then was transformed into a demon at that point-or that's what I got out of Crowley's speech and why Crowley thought it would be happening the same way with Dean. Then as a demon, he went on his murder spree and started training all the Knights of Hell. Like I said, maybe I need to go look it up again, but that's how I recall it right now.

 

 

So how could the Mark have been simultaneously killing Dean for not killing but keeping him alive after Metatron mortally wounded Dean?

 

I don't think The Mark was killing him--the stab wound did that--the Mark is what transformed his soul into a demonic one. I personally don't think The Blade had anything to do with his transformation. I think the First Blade is a tool that can only be wielded by the Mark. I think Crowley placed it on Dean because Dean was gonna need it when the Mark fully transformed him. This is my thought based on how they've never mentioned the Blade doing anything more than being a weapon.

 

My thought is, the Mark wants a killing machine, but Dean was unwilling to be that murder machine, so it turned him into one against his will. Same thing with Cain--except Cain is still a demon, but has learned to control the Mark and his demon nature somehow. That's what I think the show will be searching out now.

Edited December 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

The Mark was killing Dean before Metatron killed Dean. It was making him sick and Dean essentially said if I do not kill then I end up dead and Crowley confirmed it.

IMO the Blade does have properties tied to the Mark beyond being a weapon. That is why magnus put the blade in Dean's hand against his will; to ignite the process and it's why Dean could Jedi the blade back into his hand against Abaddon and Metatron. I think that is why Crowley needed the blade to be in Dean's hand to reignite the Mark. The power is in the Mark but the blade seemed to light the fuse.

What I don't get is why Dean can be an uber killer now and he hasn't touched the blade since Crowley took it away.

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

The Mark was killing Dean before Metatron killed Dean. It was making him sick and Dean essentially said if I do not kill then I end up dead and Crowley confirmed it.

 

I just have a different interpretation of those scenes than you. I don't think the Mark was actually killing Dean but was making him hunger for the kill. If he didn't kill I think it would just keep amping up his need for the kill until he explodes--similar to how he did here in this episode. But, if he hadn't been killed by Metatron, I think it would eventually turn him into a demon to get what it needs, just a bit slower than if he hadn't been killed--in essence, Dean Winchester will be no more at that point--so dead in a sense, but not dead in another sense.

 

 

IMO the Blade does have properties tied to the Mark beyond being a weapon. That is why magnus put the blade in Dean's hand against his will; to ignite the process and it's why Dean could Jedi the blade back into his hand against Abaddon and Metatron. I think that is why Crowley needed the blade to be in Dean's hand to reignite the Mark. The power is in the Mark but the blade seemed to light the fuse.

 

Well, I did say this was my interpretation of the First Blade. All I remember Cain saying is the First Blade was connected to the Mark and was useless without the Mark. Maybe it is more powerful than I've thought it to be, but I see it only as a tool. Just because Dean needed a few tries to get used to wielding the power it contains, doesn't say all that much to me other than it's really powerful and no one can just pick it up and use it without practice. ::shrugs::

 

 

What I don't get is why Dean can be an uber killer now and he hasn't touched the blade since Crowley took it away.

 

This is one of the reasons why I think the First Blade is just a tool, but it's the Mark that's driving the uber killing tendencies. I don't think Dean needs the Blade unless he wants to kill something more powerful than your run of the mill demon, but the Blade needs the Mark to work at all.

Edited December 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Okay, gonna go all Harry Potter for a minute.  Feel free to skip.  :-)

 

I see the Mark and the Blade like the horcruxes.  The power is in the horcrux itself (the piece of soul broken off from the whole through the process of killing), but it needs something to house it.  The ring, the locket, the diary, etc.  The objects hold no power and once the horcrux is destroyed, the object is useless.  Or at least back to what it was before.  The horcrux also wields a certain amount of power over someone who is wearing it (like the locket) or using it (like the diary).  The locket horcrux affected Harry and Ron in a similar way to the Mark affecting Dean.  They didn't become killing machines, but it altered their personalities a bit, amplifying unpleasant thoughts and feelings.  Meanwhile, the diary almost killed Ginny.

 

Now, the Blade can't be used by just anyone.  It needs the Mark to be powerful enough to kill the Knights, for example.  So the two have to be together to realize the full potential of either.  Just like that piece of soul will float around if it doesn't have something to attach to, making it a horcrux.

 

Sorry if this isn't making sense.  It does in my head, I swear.  ;-)

Edited December 15, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

I've never read Harry Potter or seen the movies, but it sounds like we're saying something similar...ish. Hopefully this kinda helps make my ramblings make better sense.

 

Thanks DD!

[Demented Daisy]

Well, it's not a perfect analogy on my part, but then, this isn't a perfect show.  ;-)

 

Trying to decide if the Elder Wand would be a better analogy to the Blade.  Gotta have a think on it a bit.  And look up what Magnus said about the Blade.

[Demented Daisy]

Okay, Magnus said the Blade was completely useless without the Mark.  The Elder Wand worked for anyone, but it wasn't as powerful if you didn't have the wand's allegiance.  So, still not a perfect analogy.  ;-)

[catrox14]

Hmmm.  I feel like if there are no other entities to confirm or deny what was happening to Dean other than Dean and Crowley in the finale and there are no other entities since then that have refuted that this was in fact killing Dean and that Dean was going to die a miserable horrible death unless he killed again I accept that it was intended for it to be true.

 

It could be that first Blade is unnecessary for him to kill with speed and agility and ruthlessness with humans but he needs it to kill an uber powerful opponent like Abaddon or Metatron.

 

But I do think the Blade was necessary to resurrect Dean as a demon, otherwise why would Crowley be so hell bent on getting it into Dean's hand if all it took was the Mark to resurrect him. 

 

Magnus and Cain both confirmed that the Blade is useless without the Mark but I think the Mark needed the Blade to start the bloodlust otherwise any old blade or weapon would have compelled Dean to slaughter and that didn't happen until the Blade was thrust into Dean's hand.  

Edited December 15, 2014 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

It could be that first Blade is unnecessary for him to kill with speed and agility and ruthlessness with humans but he needs it to kill an uber powerful opponent like Abaddon or Metatron.

 

I think they said this, about Abaddon anyway. First, everyone thought archangels killed off all the Knights of Hell (sans Abaddon) but then they exposited that they could be killed with the Blade. Which kinda makes sense since Cain created that order himself and it was his weapon. Now, archangels for sure could have done it but none were available, that`s why Dean jumped at the chance with the Mark and Blade. 

 

With Metatron, I think they saw it as an "hm, that could work" thing. It`s a powerful tool of destruction so they gave it a shot. But even then, they were aware that they needed to de-power Metatron. With his connection to the tablets, he was too strong for any weapon.

[rue721]

Does killing satiate the Mark, or does it whet its appetite? Because it actually has seemed that, if anything, the more that Dean has killed, the more bloodlust he'd had and the harder it's been to control. Especially if after he killed Abbedon, things ramped up with the MoC. If killing satiated it, wouldn't killing a big shot have ratcheted *down* the bloodlust and made the MoC feel easier to control? Cain also controlled it by keeping the killing to a minimum, I think? It seemed like back when Cain was participating in massacres, it was controlling him much more.

 

I think that the MoC was too much for Dean's (human) body to handle. Maybe the added strength was too much? He started spitting up blood and was sick enough to talk to Crowley about it, iIrc. I think that it was Crowley who put the scare into him about actually dying and becoming a demon, but what was going on with Dean's body seemed to back up what Crowley was saying. Then after he did die, his body was fundamentally different somehow, since he could heal. Even if demons are usually a disembodied soul, Dean's body seemed to literally change, considering that he started healing and had added strength/speed/etc. I think that his soul never left his body, even after he died, because if it had left his body, how could it have gone to Hell, become a demon, and gotten back on earth and back into Dean's (dead) body, all so quickly? Maybe it was the transformation of his body that changed his soul into a demon?

 

Regardless, I don't think that Dean is pulling a con now, he does have at least some humanity in him imo. There are a lot of ways that he was acting OTT or weird, but there are also a lot of ways that he was still acting human and specifically like Dean. For example, he's still trying to deny that anything's wrong, refusing to discuss his own situation in any detail, and really into reassuring Sam, lol. Demon!Dean was much more into sharing than that. As another example, he's apparently having flashbacks. Demon!Dean didn't have that problem afaik, and I don't think that's something that demons have to deal with in general. Something's wrong, but I think it's plausible that it's more that Dean's overcompensating than that he's actively trying to trick anyone for any nefarious reason. I think he might know he's not fully cured and that it's just a matter of time, and be thinking of this as his last hurrah/him saying goodbye.

 

The thing that confuses me most is the request to Cas. I just don't really understand what he expects Cas to do, or why he would want him to keep anything a secret from Sam. Why wouldn't Dean also be telling Sam to let Cas kill him, and that he doesn't want to live as a demon? Why is he setting up a situation where Sam is definitely going to try to save him again, even thinking that's what he would want, while Cas is going to be trying to kill him? If Sam isn't likely to listen to his wish to be killed, regardless, it's even more pointless to keep that wish or Cas being the designated Demon!Dean-killer a secret, isn't it?

 

ETA:

 

I'm wondering if Dean is trying to put a wedge between Sam and Cas, since they worked together to cure him last time.

Edited December 15, 2014 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

 

If Sam isn't likely to listen to his wish to be killed, regardless, it's even more pointless to keep that wish or Cas being the designated Demon!Dean-killer a secret, isn't it?

 

But if Sam doesn`t know, wouldn`t he assume that Cas` instincts would be to help/save Dean first and foremost? Which may lend itself to a situation where, say, Sam would leave Cas to watch over Dean in good faith, not thinking Cas could mean any harm. In this case, Cas would be a "Trojan horse", so to speak. It`s not bad thinking strategically.

[rue721]

It seems so cruel to set up a situation that's likely to result in something like:  demon!Dean is "contained" back at the bunker, Sam steps out to pick up something for lunch while in the middle of trying to cure Dean again, and when he gets back, Cas has killed Dean. I don't think that Dean would want that for Sam, I'd think he'd at least want to prepare him by saying that he doesn't want to be saved?

 

Also, *something* must have not worked with the cure, because it seems like otherwise, it would be a pretty good stopgap/Plan B for if Dean does become a demon again. I mean, if he becomes a demon again, then couldn't they just cure him again? At least as a temporary solution? And if he's *that* afraid of becoming a demon again, then why is he out and about anyway? Why isn't he insisting on being kept on lockdown?

[Demented Daisy]

Also, *something* must have not worked with the cure, because it seems like otherwise, it would be a pretty good stopgap/Plan B for if Dean does become a demon again. I mean, if he becomes a demon again, then couldn't they just cure him again? At least as a temporary solution? And if he's *that* afraid of becoming a demon again, then why is he out and about anyway? Why isn't he insisting on being kept on lockdown?

 

Logically, yes, that would make sense.  But wouldn't it be awfully dull for the audience to watch?