All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But the apocalypse had started, and more demons were everywhere, so the writers could say the breaking of the seals was making the demons stronger. That still would've worked for me, and in my opinion been better than seemingly ignoring that demons could be exorcised, but for some reason now weren't.

Isn't Sam's method a form of exorcism? So, if exorcisms don't work, he shouldn't be able to do it either.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Dean being worried about Sam getting out of control, obviously that turned out to be true, but I didn't see Dean not being allowed to make that argument. If I remember correctly he did - it was even brought up in pretty much those terms "slippery slope" - starting from season 3, and if I'm remembering correctly, Dean brought it up in those terms more than once. For me, it was actually Sam who was given the strawman's arguments - or none at all - in season 9, when he wasn't even allowed to bring up that Dean taking on the mark - and the power associated with it - was potentially just as much a slippery slope. Sam's only objection was that Dean had been working with Crowley.

 

Well, one difference is that the Mark was already a done deal by the time Sam found out about it, so he couldn't just talk him out of taking it on.   And TBH, neither one seemed terribly worried about it until it turned out that it was changing him, and by that time, Dean had no control over it and couldn't stop if he wanted.  And I seem to recall Sam telling him not to use the blade until it was absolutely necessary, even locking it away from him, so he did recognize/actually used the argument that it was dangerous.  It's just that it wasn't the same "slippery slope" as demon blood, because Sam *did* have the choice of stopping/not using his powers (though he'd probably go through withdrawal), but Dean didn't.  Whether he used the FB or not, the Mark was still going to change him.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Aren't the sigils on the knife what kills the demon? If so, it seems to me they could have stabbed the meatsuit in a non letal spot and that would still kill the demon since it's the sigils that kill it. That would have given them time to take the meatsuit for aid, or even do it themselves.

I dunno, that was all pretty messy for the sake of plot. 

I think the sigils both bind the demon, so it can't smoke out of the host, and then kills the demon. However, it doesn't always kill the demon--depends how powerful the demon is and/or where it's stabbed. I agree with @Katy M, seems like the have to hit a vital organ or artery for it to kill the demon. Maybe it has to kill the host in order to kill the demon? There have been times they've stabbed a demon in the leg or hand and it doesn't kill the demon, just posses them off.

So, IMO, if you're going to stab someone, you should be prepared to make it count.

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't think that was what Ruby was referring to in that quote, and I don't think Sam's powers did anything in terms of harming the host. I think we saw what Ruby was referring to in terms of getting "better all the time" when we saw the flashbacks from "I Know What You Did..." because that flashback showed Sam not being able to entirely exorcise the demon. The demon kept being able to get back into the host, so the separation wasn't complete. In that flashback, they ended up having to kill the host with the knife for some reason.

It was needlessly torturing the host which meant it was less likely to survive so they put it out of it's misery. For all Sam's, "What I do, the host survives," we really only saw one or two who actually did, right? The amount of people he got it wrong on to finally get it right... .

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to quote this and can't seem to delete it on mobile.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Point is Crowley lied.  Demons lie.  And I think a demon restoring the use of Bobby's legs is vastly different than bringing someone back from the dead; especially if the dead person was already in Heaven.  

But, we know that they have done it. Or at least gotten it done.  We pretty much know Sam was in Heaven in All Hell Breaks Loose.  Because Ash said they had been up there before and that's the longest Sam has been dead.  And, he came back because of the deal.

And I absolutely hate that phrase "demons lie."  Absolutely everybody lies.  Maybe demons do it more than some, but maybe less than others.

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Aren't the sigils on the knife what kills the demon? If so, it seems to me they could have stabbed the meatsuit in a non letal spot and that would still kill the demon since it's the sigils that kill it. That would have given them time to take the meatsuit for aid, or even do it themselves.

I dunno, that was all pretty messy for the sake of plot. 

I don't know what kills the demon.  I do know that they have stabbed demons in non-lethal spots, such as the hand, and nothing happens.  Well, not nothing, but just sparkies.

[DittyDotDot]

49 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And I absolutely hate that phrase "demons lie."  Absolutely everybody lies.  Maybe demons do it more than some, but maybe less than others.

I always scoff at the "demons lie" commentary since, on this show, demons don't lie all that much. They don't necessarily tell the whole truth, but they rarely are seen to to outright lie. Angels, on the other hand.... .

[catrox14]

Alastair said he wouldn't lie, that it was a  religious thing for him, and  the diner demon said lying is a sin. IMO,   they have their own religion wherein outright lying as  in saying no when the answer is yes is a sin. Maybe it's the only sin in their religion and it's a sin to protect Lucifer himself  from threats to his power and control. So the question is how would that be inforced? Angels can read humans apparently enough to know if  they are lying, so if Lucifer reads you and decides you're lying then it's more torment for your soul.

IMO that's what the diner demon was saying when she told Dean that lying was a sin for demons when he told her he didn't know how he got out Hell. That's why I think Alastair was not lying about Dean breaking the first seal nor about John. I don't think he was lying about how long they tortured John. What he used to his advantage was that he never said John WAS the Righteous Man,  he just said we tried to make your Daddy break but he never did, which was really just a manipulation to shatter Dean's psyche by comparing him to John because Dean was getting the upper hand on him.

IMO. they skirt the sin of it by not outright creating  lies of whole cloth but they manipulate by twisting words, obfuscating the truth, distorting facts, omitting the truth, etc., to gain what they want. IMO, Angels don't outright lie either.They use the same kind of manipulation as demons.

When Dean did become a demon, he never really outright lied either. He used the most  harmful tactics he could use to shatter Sam's psyche and resolve when he was trying to cure demon Dean. He took that page right out Alastairs playbook

The only characters who outright lie and admit to lying are humans. Human!Dean said demons lie before he went to hell and he said they lie after he got out of Hell. And Dean is a practiced liar himself and he considers what they do to be lying.

Edited August 19, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Isn't Sam's method a form of exorcism? So, if exorcisms don't work, he shouldn't be able to do it either.

One - the traditional exorcism - is words / a spell versus Sam's version which was power. I don't think it's that big of a stretch to say that they were different if writers wanted.

But then Sam would have had more of an actual argument for using his powers, so maybe the writers didn't want that, so they would rather we just handwave that exorcism was an option? Truthfully I don't know why the writers didn't have Dean bring up regular exorcism, since to me, it seems they didn't think Sam's powers were really a good thing. But maybe they didn't want the powers to be necessary at the same time, so that's why they didn't make Sam's version of exorcism necessary... And maybe Dean not bringing up exorcism versus the knife was in support of and/or gearing up to Dean's later stance that "dead as a human" is better than alive as a monster. That actually makes sense to me since that was a critical point in the season and in the Sam / Dean conflict, so they wouldn't necessarily want Dean's stance on that to come flying out of nowhere. So if Dean would seem to support killing a person with the knife (dead) and freeing them from demon control, this would be a step towards Dean's stance in that regard.

It's not perfect, but I can see this as being something in consideration. Them wanting Dean to take a strong stance like that to make his Sam is better dead (which is normally against his "save Sam" stance) than him becoming a monster. And considering I don't think Dean's entire argument was a strawman's argument - see below - in the end, for me it's not that big of a thing that Dean wasn't given exorcism as an argument., especially since the writers didn't choose to make it a big thing the other way either (i.e. show that Sam's way was way better.) Though I understand that miles vary.

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, one difference is that the Mark was already a done deal by the time Sam found out about it, so he couldn't just talk him out of taking it on.   And TBH, neither one seemed terribly worried about it until it turned out that it was changing him, and by that time, Dean had no control over it and couldn't stop if he wanted.  And I seem to recall Sam telling him not to use the blade until it was absolutely necessary, even locking it away from him, so he did recognize/actually used the argument that it was dangerous.  It's just that it wasn't the same "slippery slope" as demon blood, because Sam *did* have the choice of stopping/not using his powers (though he'd probably go through withdrawal), but Dean didn't.  Whether he used the FB or not, the Mark was still going to change him.  

I agree that the mark was a done deal. That wasn't the point of what I was saying. The post that I quoted was saying that Dean's arguments concerning Sam's powers were all strawman's arguments (demon blade vs Sam's exorcism) and that Dean wasn't "allowed" to bring up other arguments. My point was that Dean did bring up other arguments - a lot - and starting way back in season 3. It wasn't like Dean was written as all "okay Sam, you're right, your way does seem to be better" after their argument. Dean mentioned a slippery slope, that God didn't want Sam doing it, and that it was doing something to Sam all during the season... and then Dean was right. That was my point, That - in my opinion - Dean's arguments weren't shown as weak, or diminished, but that his point of view was reiterated and shown to be the right one.

One thing I'll mention here about the mark and the First Blade thing is that it was actually Crowley who took away and hid the blade from Dean - not Sam. Sam had been trying to help Dean get the blade until he saw what it did, but he had no part in taking it away from Dean (Sam was fairly passive in most of season 9). I'm taking the rest of this to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just in case.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I always scoff at the "demons lie" commentary since, on this show, demons don't lie all that much. They don't necessarily tell the whole truth, but they rarely are seen to to outright lie. Angels, on the other hand.... .

Demons lie when they have a reason to lie, just like anybody else.  They haven't really been shown to be pathological liars.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Alastair said he wouldn't lie, that it was a  religious thing for him, and  the diner demon said lying is a sin. IMO,   they have their own religion wherein outright lying as  in saying no when the answer is yes is a sin. Maybe it's the only sin in their religion and it's a sin to protect Lucifer himself  from threats to his power and control. So the question is how would that be inforced? Angels can read humans apparently enough to know if  they are lying, so if Lucifer reads you and decides you're lying then it's more torment for your soul.

IMO that's what the diner demon was saying when she told Dean that lying was a sin for demons when he told her he didn't know how he got out Hell. That's why I think Alastair was not lying about Dean breaking the first seal nor about John. I don't think he was lying about how long they tortured John. What he used to his advantage was that he never said John WAS the Righteous Man,  he just said we tried to make your Daddy break but he never did, which was really just a manipulation to shatter Dean's psyche by comparing him to John because Dean was getting the upper hand on him.

IMO. they skirt the sin of it by not outright creating  lies of whole cloth but they manipulate by twisting words, obfuscating the truth, distorting facts, omitting the truth, etc., to gain what they want. IMO, Angels don't outright lie either.They use the same kind of manipulation as demons.

What I remember is that Alistair said "I wouldn't lie about that.  It's kind of a religious thing with me."   I always assumed he was just referring to the particular statement about Dean breaking the first seal, which *would* have been religious to him, because it was what started the path to freeing Lucifer, who was the Demon God (per Casey and Meg at least.)   You can look on it as the demon version of the Second Coming, and therefore deeply significant to the true believers.   (I actually didn't consider Alistair a true believer, but he was working for Azazel with the intention of breaking the first seal, so his motives didn't really matter.)  I never took it as "demons can't/won't lie" in general.  

About the diner demon--again, I didn't think she said it was a sin *for demons.*  Frankly, I thought she was mocking Dean/humans for their belief that lying is a sin.  (Because honestly?  If lying is a sin and all sinners go to hell, there would have been no need to look for Purgatory to get more souls.  Hell would have been full to overflowing and heaven would only have saints and angels.)  

I don't think demons have any "sins" to be punished for.  They can be evaporated/burned/whatever by whoever's in charge (Lucifer, Crowley or Abaddon) whenever they displease him/her.  It all seemed to be based on whims, not for breaking any "rules" in particular (except disloyalty.)  

About demons as liars in general, IMO it's what  Dean said in BUABS when Jo asked if demons also told the truth:  he said "yeah, if they think it'll mess with your mind."  (Paraphrasing, because I'm too lazy right now to check the actual quote).  But my interpretation is that demons will say whatever they feel will mess with your minds the most--whether lies or truth.  It doesn't seem to matter to them as long as they get the desired result.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But then Sam would have had more of an actual argument for using his powers, so maybe the writers didn't want that, so they would rather we just handwave that exorcism was an option?

It was a strawman either way. That was my whole point. It wasn't a B v J thing because either one could have mentioned it and neither did. It makes the characters look stupid all for the sake of the plot and IMO treats the audience stupidly, as if we won't remember the past. That's all I was saying. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

t was a strawman either way. That was my whole point. It wasn't a B v J thing because either one could have mentioned it and neither did. It makes the characters look stupid all for the sake of the plot and IMO treats the audience stupidly, as if we won't remember the past. That's all I was saying. 

And I don't disagree with that.

I was disagreeing with the thought / statement that Dean wasn't given any other argument, since I think - though others don't have to agree - that Dean was also given other arguments. That's what I was trying to say. If Dean hadn't been given any other arguments at all, then for me that would have been a different story, but I think he was, so for me, the main complaint would be, as you said, that it's treating the characters and the audience as somewhat stupid. Not surprisingly I generally have more issues with season 4 than others do, however, Dean only having strawman's arguments is not one of them. I thought his side of the argument was pretty clear and pretty well represented, the exorcism thing being the exception rather than the rule... again in my opinion only.

[Hanahope]

I didn't like this season.  The beginning had too little development of the relationships between Sam and Amelia on one side and Dean and Benny on the other.  And Cas was too much of an enigma, and neither Winchester, especially Dean realized how wrong Cas acted.  And even Kenny lost out in development.

 

some individual episodes were good.  I did like the idea of Men of Letters, but again it was just dropped in our laps with no real background.  It seemed too much like Sam and Dean need a new bunker and a new way to get info, make up something quick.

 

Crowley/Mark Sheppard was the standout for sure. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Thanks, @catrox14 for making the individual All Eps threads for each season - I think that will help with some discussions.  :)

Replying here on these, since this is where the conversation originated, and I'm not sure which season it would be if any one season anyway.

On 8/18/2017 at 10:52 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

But the apocalypse had started, and more demons were everywhere, so the writers could say the breaking of the seals was making the demons stronger. That still would've worked for me, and in my opinion been better than seemingly ignoring that demons could be exorcised, but for some reason now weren't.

But then how would they have justified Sam's return to "saving people" in S11 and exorcisms suddenly working again?  Since Lucifer got put back in the cage now they work?  I guess that could have worked too.  

On 8/19/2017 at 8:33 AM, Katy M said:

But, we know that they have done it. Or at least gotten it done.  We pretty much know Sam was in Heaven in All Hell Breaks Loose.  Because Ash said they had been up there before and that's the longest Sam has been dead.  And, he came back because of the deal.

Ash also said Dean had been in Heaven before too.  Actually, if I recall, Ash said they'd both been there several times, so it wasn't just the time Sam came back because of the deal.  So when and how did they die and who brought them back all those other times?  We don't really know.  So, that's still not enough evidence for me that Demons can get souls out of Heaven.  For all we know, that's the one time Sam wasn't in Heaven - Crowley intercepted Bobby's soul on the way to Heaven and sent him to Hell instead.   Maybe a demon did that with Sam and that's how Sam was able to be brought back from the dead because of a demon deal: because a demon didn't have to get his soul out of Heaven.  Kevin stayed in the veil for a long time.  Granted, that was because Heaven was 'closed', but it's possible something similar happened with Sam's soul and he didn't actually move on to Heaven in that instance.  Mary didn't remember being a ghost, so if Sam had been stuck in the veil, it's likely imo that he wouldn't remember that either.  There are other explanations for a demon to be able to bring someone back from the dead other than a demon is able to get the soul out of Heaven.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But then how would they have justified Sam's return to "saving people" in S11 and exorcisms suddenly working again?  Since Lucifer got put back in the cage now they work?  I guess that could have worked too.

The really annoying part is that they were doing non Hand of Ipecac exorcisms as early as S5. The mom in the Jesse episode exorcised the demon from herself by ingesting salt. Sidebar: I wonder if Dean was partially exorcising Alistair by putting salt down his throat which maybe weakened Alistair enough for Sam to kill him? Or did Sam do that on his own?  I dunno. Just a musing.

Then in Swap Meat, Dean and Gary, who was no longer in Sam, exorcised the demon from Nora when the knife didn't work, via ...wait for it....the exorcism rites. Who knows.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The really annoying part is that they were doing non Hand of Ipecac exorcisms as early as S5.

I'm being way too lazy to do my own fact-checking - but I thought they were doing them way earlier than that?  Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm being way too lazy to do my own fact-checking - but I thought they were doing them way earlier than that?  Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Sorry. I wasn't clear.

They have  been doing regular exorcisms from s1.

I was referring to the discussion of the strawman/false premise setup in  Metamorphosis with demon knife vs Sam's Hand of Ipecac as the only options. AwesomO4000 was offering the idea that the writers could have explained that the first seals breaking in s4, and then Lucifer rising in s5 could have diminished the power of regular exorcisms, so that Sam's way and/or the demon knife were the only options. But unfortunately they were still doing exorcisms the old way in s5, so there is no good reason for them to have left that out from premise.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Gotcha!  It was the eclipse!  It confused me.  ;)

[Hanahope]

Well I liked this season better than 8, but the angel story was a bit dull.  Both Meta and Abaddon made good villains and Crowley definitely got more depth added.  I like the solution to the villains with the Mark of Cain and it's finale/set up for next season.  It makes sense for Dean.

 I was almost more annoyed with Sam this season than 8, if that's even possible and imo, Sam has a lot to make up for next season and he'll go a long way in doing so if he can save Dean.  Cas had some good moments, I like that he understands humans even more than before, and I hope they find a way to return his grace .

the non-story arc episodes were ok.  The ghostfacers one was too anvilish and antsy when it's supposed to be more of a fun episode.  I liked the Oz episode and hope we see Charlie and Dorothy again.  The pilot/bloodline one was very meh.  

Sucks that I have to wait a week before I can start season 10 (haha yes that sounds bitchy given most times we wait months or nearly a year for next seasons in most shows) .

going to have to push to get 3 seasons done in 6-7 weeks, especially when I have to catch up on my dvr shows from 2 1/2 weeks vacation.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Well I liked this season better than 8, but the angel story was a bit dull.  Both Meta and Abaddon made good villains and Crowley definitely got more depth added.  I like the solution to the villains with the Mark of Cain and it's finale/set up for next season.  It makes sense for Dean.

 I was almost more annoyed with Sam this season than 8, if that's even possible and imo, Sam has a lot to make up for next season and he'll go a long way in doing so if he can save Dean.  Cas had some good moments, I like that he understands humans even more than before, and I hope they find a way to return his grace .

Season 9 is my least favorite.  And, I think SAm should have forgiven Dean earlier than he did, but I don't really think he has that much to make up for. Dean's the one that was in the wrong this season.  And, he was majorly stupid to take the MOC, IMO. 

[Katy M]

Quote

 

 Being a hunter is nothing these days.  In fact, everyone wants to be one. (I even think there's an ap!)

 

 

Brought over from the Bitch vs. Jerk thread.

This is why I really like Season 1.  Sam and Dean didn't have a whole bunch of other hunters helping them out.  Yes, they had some of their dad's contacts that they would call, but besides their dad in the last few epis, they never actively worked with another hunter.  They were on their own.  And, that's why it seems weird to me, that as the seasons pass, and they get more experience, they seem to need more and more help from other hunters.  Especially newbies.

And then just for fun, here's an interesting comparison. In Season 2, No exit, Dean told Jo amateurs couldn't do the job.  In later seasons, he embraces Charlie and Donna as full-fledged hunters after one hunt each.  Charlie even did a bunch of solo hunts, because of the aforementioned app. 

And, then another thing, dying and coming back was rare in the first seasons.  AFAIK, Sam was the first time it happened to anyone the Winchesters knew.  (Not including John in In the Beginning). Now, we have Dorothy telling Charlie in Slumber Party, that you "aren't a real hunter until you've died and come back."  Well, with the number of hunters it must be a daily occurrence.

I'm in danger of ranting, so I'll leave it at that.

[Pondlass1]

22 hours ago, Katy M said:

another thing, dying and coming back was rare in the first seasons.

I was in bits when Sam died and Dean delivered that tearful speech over his body. BITS!!  Snot and tears all over the place, literally sobbing out loud.  And I'm British!! Stiff upper lip and all that.

But now it's kind of ....'Whatever' .  Not really the writers' fault, I guess.  After 13 years when everyone's died and resurrected a dozen times... YOLO is kind of a running joke.  

[catrox14]

Deleted scene from 12.23.

Mary: " I just got you back. I can't lose you"

RME

Mary, NO, they got you back. Well, Dean did. I'm glad they didn't include this because boy that makes her seem like she did something to help them, when that wasn't true. But I guess it also explains why she decided to take on Lucifer herself, which didn't really need to be explained IMO.  It was obvious.

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I was re-rewatching 6-14 Mannequin 3 and had problem with the ghost, but I don't think it's one that has been mentioned before.  I decided to post here so I won't have to spoiler tag.  :)  I don't really have a problem with Rose being attached to her former kidney (though that is kinda stretching it a bit, I think).  It's about the way Ghost Rose gets around.  They explained it in the ep that her sister was at each of those places and that's how the ghost got there.  But I don't think the sister was at each of those places at the time of the attacks.  The one at the apartment over the bar, I think Sis was downstairs.  But the first attack at the lab was after classes were over, so Sis had gone home.  Ditto for the attack at the factory - it was after hours and sis was no longer there working.  The reason this bothers me is because in S7 when Bobby is a ghost attached to his flask, he can only be where the flask physically is.  He has to lift it out of Dean's pocket and leave it at the house in order for Bobby to be able to stay at the house.  So, following those same rules, Rose shouldn't have been able to stay at the college or factory to attack people after Sis had already left with her haunted kidney.  Or am I missing something someone else picked up on?

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I was re-rewatching 6-14 Mannequin 3 and had problem with the ghost, but I don't think it's one that has been mentioned before.  I decided to post here so I won't have to spoiler tag.  :)  I don't really have a problem with Rose being attached to her former kidney (though that is kinda stretching it a bit, I think).  It's about the way Ghost Rose gets around.  They explained it in the ep that her sister was at each of those places and that's how the ghost got there.  But I don't think the sister was at each of those places at the time of the attacks.  The one at the apartment over the bar, I think Sis was downstairs.  But the first attack at the lab was after classes were over, so Sis had gone home.  Ditto for the attack at the factory - it was after hours and sis was no longer there working.  The reason this bothers me is because in S7 when Bobby is a ghost attached to his flask, he can only be where the flask physically is.  He has to lift it out of Dean's pocket and leave it at the house in order for Bobby to be able to stay at the house.  So, following those same rules, Rose shouldn't have been able to stay at the college or factory to attack people after Sis had already left with her haunted kidney.  Or am I missing something someone else picked up on?

Yeah, there was some wonkiness with the possession in that episode, as I recall. Usually the ghost has to have the item they're attached to on the person they possess to be able to possess them. Another example is the ghost in After School Special; he had to have the lock of hair on the person he was possessing. Maybe Rose was just really powerful? I dunno.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, there was some wonkiness with the possession in that episode, as I recall. Usually the ghost has to have the item they're attached to on the person they possess to be able to possess them. Another example is the ghost in After School Special; he had to have the lock of hair on the person he was possessing. Maybe Rose was just really powerful? I dunno.

I thought that the ghost in "Afterschool Special" possessed people while they were on the bus and rode them into the school, but when he got knocked out, he snapped back to the bus where the hair was (in the Bible in the glove compartment). So maybe it was similar with the ghost from the kidney, except it could somehow possess mannequins?

Otherwise I got nothing.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought that the ghost in "Afterschool Special" possessed people while they were on the bus and rode them into the school, but when he got knocked out, he snapped back to the bus where the hair was (in the Bible in the glove compartment). So maybe it was similar with the ghost from the kidney, except it could somehow possess mannequins?

Otherwise I got nothing.

Since the lock of hair was on the guy he possessed, I figured it was like how Bobby took the flask from the safe when he possessed the maid; the ghost planted the lock of hair on whoever he wanted to possess so he was able to leave the bus?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Since the lock of hair was on the guy he possessed, I figured it was like how Bobby took the flask from the safe when he possessed the maid; the ghost planted the lock of hair on whoever he wanted to possess so he was able to leave the bus?

Nope.  He only took the lock of hair with that last guy.  That's why when Sam forced him out of that girl with the salt, he was bungeed back to the bus.  If she still had the lock of hair on her (and obviously the salt wouldn't have affected that), then he would have stayed there.  If Bobby hadn't physically taken the flask with the made, when he touched the iron, he would have been bungeed back to the hotel (or back to Sam and Dean as they probably would have removed it at aht point).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the 6-19 Mommy Dearest thread:

But I wonder who took over after Eve died.  

12 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Interesting question! It makes you wonder if when we're shown the Purgatory flashbacks during season 8 if the monsters were running amok and attacking each other because Mother of All wasn't there to keep them in check.

 

 

 

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Now I can't quite remember (or, I think I remember, but I'm probably wrong, so I want verification) Did Eve predate the Leviathans or vice versa?  Cause if the Leviathans predated Eve, I think it's kind of interesting that it seems like she was in charge of Purgatory.  But maybe with the power of all the monster souls (her children) that was enough for her to keep the Levi in line - or locked away in a separate part of Purgatory where they couldn't eat her children.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought that the ghost in "Afterschool Special" possessed people while they were on the bus and rode them into the school, but when he got knocked out, he snapped back to the bus where the hair was (in the Bible in the glove compartment). So maybe it was similar with the ghost from the kidney, except it could somehow possess mannequins?

Otherwise I got nothing.

Okay, this makes sense.  Rose possessed the mannequins while Isabelle was on site, but waited until the victims were alone to attack.   Has there been another instance of a ghost possessing an inanimate object?

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Now I can't quite remember (or, I think I remember, but I'm probably wrong, so I want verification) Did Eve predate the Leviathans or vice versa?  Cause if the Leviathans predated Eve, I think it's kind of interesting that it seems like she was in charge of Purgatory.  But maybe with the power of all the monster souls (her children) that was enough for her to keep the Levi in line - or locked away in a separate part of Purgatory where they couldn't eat her children.  

Something the Alpha Vamp said in There Will Be Blood and also a comment from Sam earlier in the season gave me the impression that Eve was at least somehow related to, if not one of the Leviathans. Since I have a whole theory of monster basically being mutated humans, I think of Eve as a mutated Leviathan. The timeline is kinda wonky though. 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Nope.  He only took the lock of hair with that last guy.  That's why when Sam forced him out of that girl with the salt, he was bungeed back to the bus.  If she still had the lock of hair on her (and obviously the salt wouldn't have affected that), then he would have stayed there. 

I'm not convinced the ghost didn't plant the lock of hair on all of his possessees. Why wouldn't the salt affect the girl? Even if she had the hair on her, I think the salt would expel the ghost just like we saw. I figured the ghost was just hanging around, but unable to possess the girl again right then. The lock of hair--and the ghost--would've ended back on the bus when the girl took the bus home. 

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, this makes sense.  Rose possessed the mannequins while Isabelle was on site, but waited until the victims were alone to attack.   Has there been another instance of a ghost possessing an inanimate object?

Not that I can think of right now.

[Pondlass1]

There is no show bible or legend or whatever.  So writers have free rein when concocting a script with a ghost.  There are inconsistencies throughout this series and most others on  TV today.  They should hire a rabid fan to be on set to check out things maybe.  It would be great if they payed attention and were consistent, but we have to remember most network series are really made for the casual viewer who doesn't take notes.

Talking about ghost Bobby. I had to laugh.  He strained so hard to move that curtain and then in the haunted house with Annie it was a concentrated effort to move an inanimate object. Yet, one of the very first things Bobby ever did as a ghost was to drink all of Dean's beer.  How did he do that?  It involved picking up a bottle and somehow ingesting fluid - yet next episode ghost Bobby couldn't move a curtain without a sweat.   

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not convinced the ghost didn't plant the lock of hair on all of his possessees. Why wouldn't the salt affect the girl? Even if she had the hair on her, I think the salt would expel the ghost just like we saw. I figured the ghost was just hanging around, but unable to possess the girl again right then. The lock of hair--and the ghost--would've ended back on the bus when the girl took the bus home. 

If the girl had the locket of hair, though, the ghost wouldn't have been able to go anywhere.,  Able to possess someone or not (and why not hop into Sam at that point?) the ghost would have been stuck in the hallway.  We saw the ghost get ejected out of the hall.

 

22 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Talking about ghost Bobby. I had to laugh.  He strained so hard to move that curtain and then in the haunted house with Annie it was a concentrated effort to move an inanimate object. Yet, one of the very first things Bobby ever did as a ghost was to drink all of Dean's beer.  How did he do that?  It involved picking up a bottle and somehow ingesting fluid - yet next episode ghost Bobby couldn't move a curtain without a sweat.

It was beer. He had special motivation.  It does make you wonder where the actual beer went, though. Ghost Bobby does not have a stomach and digestive system.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Able to possess someone or not (and why not hop into Sam at that point?)

Do the anti-possession tattoos work against ghosts too?

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the 6-19 Mommy Dearest thread:

 

That's kind of what I was thinking.  Now I can't quite remember (or, I think I remember, but I'm probably wrong, so I want verification) Did Eve predate the Leviathans or vice versa?  Cause if the Leviathans predated Eve, I think it's kind of interesting that it seems like she was in charge of Purgatory.  But maybe with the power of all the monster souls (her children) that was enough for her to keep the Levi in line - or locked away in a separate part of Purgatory where they couldn't eat her children.  

Death said that God created Purgatory to lock the leviathans away.  That leads me to believe that leviathans predated Eve.

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Do the anti-possession tattoos work against ghosts too?

I don't know.  I think it's specifically for demons  We know they dont' work againt monsters because that "khan worm" possessed Dean.  And, they obviously don't work against angels.  

[SueB]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, this makes sense.  Rose possessed the mannequins while Isabelle was on site, but waited until the victims were alone to attack.   Has there been another instance of a ghost possessing an inanimate object?

"possess", I'm not sure.  But the heroin dealer made computers say 'danaschulps' and Kevin and the feet-fetish girl both spoke through electrical items.  

Speaking of moving ghosts... 'danaschulps' death omen was moving ALL over town, independent of an object or her bones.  She was causing bruising on the people she appeared to.  As a 'death omen' she sure SEEMED like a variant on ghost but she was both powerful and not (couldn't communicate with slit throat).  (Yes, Usual Suspects was on TNT Rewatch yesterday, so it's fresh in my mind).

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

"possess", I'm not sure.  But the heroin dealer made computers say 'danaschulps' and Kevin and the feet-fetish girl both spoke through electrical items.  

Speaking of moving ghosts... 'danaschulps' death omen was moving ALL over town, independent of an object or her bones.  She was causing bruising on the people she appeared to.  As a 'death omen' she sure SEEMED like a variant on ghost but she was both powerful and not (couldn't communicate with slit throat).  (Yes, Usual Suspects was on TNT Rewatch yesterday, so it's fresh in my mind).

Constance in Pilot, went from her house (where she was buried) to the road that led to the bridge (where she died).

Dead in the Water, Peter could only move through the water source.

Bloody Mary went all through town to any given mirror near where she was summoned.

Hook Man seemed to stay close to Lori and his "hook" cross.

We have no ide what the poltergeist's connection was to the Winchester house in Home.  Mary seemed stuck in the house.

I don't think the ghost in the Asylum left the West Wing.

The truck in Route 666 seemed to be able to go all over the town.

The ghosts in Provenance stuck with their painting and even re-painted it after it was burned.

The ghost in No Exit was stuck in the building built over the field where he was executed.

Claire in The Usual Suspects went wherever her warnees were.

Maggie never left the property in Playthings.  She wasn't stuck at the pool, though.

The priest in Houses of the Holy seemed to be able to go wherever he wanted in town

Molly and Farmer Roadkill were stuck on that road in Roadkill.  But, then Sam and Dean took Molly back to her house which was presumably in another town if not another state, considering the fact that she and dAvid were lost.

Folsom Prison Blues, the nurse appeared to be stuck in the jail.

Bedtime Stories, not even quite dead, but that little girl could go anywhere.

Red Sky at Morning-apparently anywhere in town

Ghostfacers: stuck in the house

ARe You There: they were brought back by a spell, so I guess they had different rules.

That's as far as I'm going because I think I've proved that each ghost has its own rules about where it can go.  Maybe some ghosts can get more powerful somehow as time goe on, and they aren't as anchored to anything?

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know.  I think it's specifically for demons  We know they dont' work againt monsters because that "khan worm" possessed Dean.  And, they obviously don't work against angels.  

No, I don't think it does work because ghosts aren't demons..

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't know.  I think it's specifically for demons  We know they dont' work againt monsters because that "khan worm" possessed Dean.  And, they obviously don't work against angels.  

No, I don't think it does work because ghosts aren't demons..

Hm... which then begs the question for me at least - why haven't Dean and Sam been possessed by ghosts more often with all the angry spirits they run across?

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hm... which then begs the question for me at least - why haven't Dean and Sam been possessed by ghosts more often with all the angry spirits they run across?

After School Special was the first time ghost possession happened. Dean said it was rare.  The only other ghost I can think of that has possessed a person is Bobby.  I'm sure I'm missing one, but considering the fact that ther have been at least 25 (I'm totally making that number up, but I feel it's probably true) episdoes with ghosts in them, and only 2-3 have possessed people, it doesn't seem so weird that Sam and Dean have avoided possession.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hm... which then begs the question for me at least - why haven't Dean and Sam been possessed by ghosts more often with all the angry spirits they run across?

I think it's a power issue, more than anything. It's rare to possess people, it appears there is a great deal of power required to do it. Most the ghosts the come across are run of the mill angry spirits.

However, it does seem Sam and Dean carry around enough protection in the forms of iron and salt.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

After School Special was the first time ghost possession happened. Dean said it was rare.  The only other ghost I can think of that has possessed a person is Bobby.  I'm sure I'm missing one, but considering the fact that ther have been at least 25 (I'm totally making that number up, but I feel it's probably true) episdoes with ghosts in them, and only 2-3 have possessed people, it doesn't seem so weird that Sam and Dean have avoided possession.

Well, maybe it's only been X number of episodes with ghosts in them, but the episodes that we see don't equate to all the cases which Sam and Dean have worked.  Many times I've heard the characters make references to something that 'that rugaru case in Wisconsin' but we never actually saw them work that rugaru case.  I'm thinking more in terms of: they've been at this for 13 years (not counting when they hunted with John before Sam went to Stanford).  They work constantly and rarely even take a break.  If each case takes a week, including time to find the case, that's 52 cases a year.  That's over 676 just in the past 13 years.  So my best guess is that they've handled way more than 25 ghost cases, which increases the likelihood that they should been been ghost possessed at least once for us to see.  

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, it does seem Sam and Dean carry around enough protection in the forms of iron and salt.

Granted, it probably does take a lot of power for a ghost to possess someone.  But If I demon could catch them off guard, then I think a ghost should be able to.  

And - I'd just really like to see a ghost possess one or both of them!  :)

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, maybe it's only been X number of episodes with ghosts in them, but the episodes that we see don't equate to all the cases which Sam and Dean have worked.  Many times I've heard the characters make references to something that 'that rugaru case in Wisconsin' but we never actually saw them work that rugaru case.  I'm thinking more in terms of: they've been at this for 13 years (not counting when they hunted with John before Sam went to Stanford).  They work constantly and rarely even take a break.  If each case takes a week, including time to find the case, that's 52 cases a year.  That's over 676 just in the past 13 years.  So my best guess is that they've handled way more than 25 ghost cases, which increases the likelihood that they should been been ghost possessed at least once for us to see.  

Granted, it probably does take a lot of power for a ghost to possess someone.  But If I demon could catch them off guard, then I think a ghost should be able to.  

And - I'd just really like to see a ghost possess one or both of them!  :)

Although I want Ruth Connell back, I'd pay good money to see Rowena possess Sam.  Just for the size gag alone.  How many times would he bump his head?  And then have a scene where Rowena sees "herself" in the mirror and rants about Sam's body being overgrown.  

[catrox14]

Wasn't the ghost in Mamma Mia possessing Mary? So presuming Mary did get tatted up, then it doesn't matter for ghost possession. And as much as I think Mary is a bit of a numbskull, I can't believe she didn't get a tat before that hunt. But maybe not. She better have one now.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Although I want Ruth Connell back, I'd pay good money to see Rowena possess Sam.  Just for the size gag alone.  How many times would he bump his head?  And then have a scene where Rowena sees "herself" in the mirror and rants about Sam's body being overgrown.  

I'd love to see that as well!

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Although I want Ruth Connell back, I'd pay good money to see Rowena possess Sam.  Just for the size gag alone.  How many times would he bump his head?  And then have a scene where Rowena sees "herself" in the mirror and rants about Sam's body being overgrown.  

HA! That would be hilarious. I'd be amused by Rowena possessing Dean too. Hell, I'm pretty sure Rowena possessing anyone would be hilarious. ;)

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, maybe it's only been X number of episodes with ghosts in them, but the episodes that we see don't equate to all the cases which Sam and Dean have worked.  Many times I've heard the characters make references to something that 'that rugaru case in Wisconsin' but we never actually saw them work that rugaru case.  I'm thinking more in terms of: they've been at this for 13 years (not counting when they hunted with John before Sam went to Stanford).  They work constantly and rarely even take a break.  If each case takes a week, including time to find the case, that's 52 cases a year.  That's over 676 just in the past 13 years.  So my best guess is that they've handled way more than 25 ghost cases, which increases the likelihood that they should been been ghost possessed at least once for us to see.  

I think they've andled well over 25 ghost cases also.  I was giving a low number.  But, my point was that out of the ghsots we have seen only 3 have possessed people. It really does seem to be as rare as DEan says.

 

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wasn't the ghost in Mamma Mia possessing Mary? So presuming Mary did get tatted up, then it doesn't matter for ghost possession. And as much as I think Mary is a bit of a numbskull, I can't believe she didn't get a tat before that hunt. But maybe not. She better have one now.

Yep, I knew I was missing one.  

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

After School Special was the first time ghost possession happened. Dean said it was rare.  The only other ghost I can think of that has possessed a person is Bobby.  I'm sure I'm missing one, but considering the fact that ther have been at least 25 (I'm totally making that number up, but I feel it's probably true) episdoes with ghosts in them, and only 2-3 have possessed people, it doesn't seem so weird that Sam and Dean have avoided possession.

There was also the spectre in Southern Comfort which IIRC they said was more or less a supercharged ghost? (I can't remember that clearly.)  It did possess Dean, so obviously the tat didn't work then.  But it seems the person had to actually be in possession of the coin (not even just in the vicinity, or Dean would have stayed possessed when Garth picked up the coin) so it seemed to be acting more like a cursed object than possession.  

[bettername2come]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Although I want Ruth Connell back, I'd pay good money to see Rowena possess Sam.  Just for the size gag alone.  How many times would he bump his head?  And then have a scene where Rowena sees "herself" in the mirror and rants about Sam's body being overgrown.

Yes! Jared played feminine evil well in Bloody Mary and Born Under a Bad Sign.  I think he would hilariously do Rowena justice.

[DittyDotDot]

From The Things We Left Behind Thread:

On 11/10/2016 at 11:53 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Although there's still About A Boy, Inside Man and The Werther Project, this episode basically marks the end of the good times for S10. It's hard to look back on it fondly for that reason alone, but Claire's hair doesn't help either.

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh that's interesting to me. I think most of the rest of s10 is pretty great.

  Hide contents

Executioner's Song, Book of the Damned, The Prisoner, Brother's Keeper  right to the end LOL

Eh, it's fine I guess, but mostly steeped in bullshit melodrama and unnecessary angst. I just prefer the show when they don't take themselves so seriously; Cain's Hair is pretty epic, though! ;)