All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I did say it was only a part of the reason. I'm sure John had many reasons for why he kept them away, but I think it makes sense that if he knew about the Campbells and didn't want Sam and Dean to know about the Campbells, he would keep them away from hunters who also knew about the Campbells. 

The thing is, I don't think the Campbells were really well-known in the hunter community, Elkins said he'd never heard of them when Dean tried to steal the Colt from him. I'd guess they tried to keep to themselves mostly since Samuel didn't trust other hunters around his family, but it had to be inevitable that he would run across other hunters on the job and the Campbell family was bigger than just Mary, Samuel and Deanna. So, it's not like every hunter has stories of the Campbells, but I wouldn't be surprised if John didn't run across one or two who did. And, I wouldn't expect most of Sam and Dean's current contacts to know anything about Mary's family since they all died over 40 years ago. I don't think any current hunter would have stories to tell, but back when John was first hunting I can imagine there being a few.

That's interesting.  I would think that considering their library, they should have been fairly well known, but at the same time, they seemed like they were stationary, or at least Samuel and Deanna were, and to have a library, that might mean the other Campbells were stationary too and didn't cross the breadth and width of the country the way other hunters seem to do.  Samuel seemed just as insular as John ("I don't trust other hunters, Dean, don't want their help, don't want them around my family), so maybe they wouldn't work with anyone outside the family?   John didn't have any family outside of his sons, so he did develop a name in the hunting community, but the Campbells didn't?  

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

That's interesting.  I would think that considering their library, they should have been fairly well known, but at the same time, they seemed like they were stationary, or at least Samuel and Deanna were, and to have a library, that might mean the other Campbells were stationary too and didn't cross the breadth and width of the country the way other hunters seem to do.  Samuel seemed just as insular as John ("I don't trust other hunters, Dean, don't want their help, don't want them around my family), so maybe they wouldn't work with anyone outside the family?   John didn't have any family outside of his sons, so he did develop a name in the hunting community, but the Campbells didn't?  

I think the library was for Samuel's use and not for anyone else. It seems to me, John became more well-known simply because he had a circle of hunters he worked with regularly whereas I think you're right that Samuel probably only worked with family and probably only on very rare occasions. I'd bet they kept to themselves and kept quiet more often than not.

[CluelessDrifter]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the library was for Samuel's use and not for anyone else. It seems to me, John became more well-known simply because he had a circle of hunters he worked with regularly whereas I think you're right that Samuel probably only worked with family and probably only on very rare occasions. I'd bet they kept to themselves and kept quiet more often than not.

I always thought it was a Campbell family library.  As an aside, I've actually thought for a while now that it was a prototype for the MOL bunker story-wise with all the knowledge the Campbells had accumulated over the generations, and I thought it was an interesting parallel this season that if the Campbells had the cure for vampirism, the BMoL apparently had the cure for lychanthropy.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I always thought it was a Campbell family library.

It was a library of collected Campbell books and such, but it seemed to me Samuel wasn't a sharer. 

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

As an aside, I've actually thought for a while now that it was a prototype for the MOL bunker story-wise with all the knowledge the Campbells had accumulated over the generations, and I thought it was an interesting parallel this season that if the Campbells had the cure for vampirism, the BMoL apparently had the cure for lychanthropy.

At the time, I saw it as a parallel to Bobby's house--complete with panic room and library--but Bobby was sharer and Samuel wasn't. But, yeah, when they revealed the MoL, I seem to recall commenting that wasn't this just a cleaner and more pretentious Campbell base.

Don't get me started on how much I felt the bunker flew in the face of the show's own history--and still do--even though I've accepted it's existence.

[SueB]

Samuel didn't trust other hunters.  I don't think he shared much at all.

And even without ANY knowledge of other hunters, suspecting that your child was TARGETED is enough to keep John away from other hunters.  There may have been hunters that would have killed Sam just because he had been a target.  And I do think he was worried early on that Sam was the target.  It could have just been your run-of-the-mill 'eat babies' kind of monster or it could have been something worse.  But the hunter community was a rough crowd.  And not necessarily the best influence on the boys if John wanted to maintain strict control.  Isolation is a key to control.

And yes, I think John wanted to control everything about them.  Not JUST because he was a control freak but out of fear.  He lost Mary, he stated himself that he couldn't lose his children.  Which sounds like so much bullshit considering the lives they led.  I think a better way to phrase it is that he was trying to control everything about their lives so that if the were at risk, he had controlled the circumstances and their skillsets as much as possible.  They were "woke" to the Supernatural.  He had faith they could handle the routine stuff because of how he raised them.  It was the extra evil shit (like YED) that he didn't want them near. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

 Isolation is a key to control.

Man, this is in a nutshell what bothers me most about John. And Samuel, to be honest.

[CluelessDrifter]

On 8/1/2017 at 6:37 PM, SueB said:

Samuel didn't trust other hunters.  I don't think he shared much at all.

And even without ANY knowledge of other hunters, suspecting that your child was TARGETED is enough to keep John away from other hunters.  There may have been hunters that would have killed Sam just because he had been a target.  And I do think he was worried early on that Sam was the target.  It could have just been your run-of-the-mill 'eat babies' kind of monster or it could have been something worse.  But the hunter community was a rough crowd.  And not necessarily the best influence on the boys if John wanted to maintain strict control.  Isolation is a key to control.

And yes, I think John wanted to control everything about them.  Not JUST because he was a control freak but out of fear.  He lost Mary, he stated himself that he couldn't lose his children.  Which sounds like so much bullshit considering the lives they led.  I think a better way to phrase it is that he was trying to control everything about their lives so that if the were at risk, he had controlled the circumstances and their skillsets as much as possible.  They were "woke" to the Supernatural.  He had faith they could handle the routine stuff because of how he raised them.  It was the extra evil shit (like YED) that he didn't want them near. 

I agree and disagree at the same time, because I agree that John was the type of father he was out of fear, and I agree that isolation, when it is absolute, is a useful means of control.  Cults isolate their members from the outside world, etc.  There is a case that could be made that even while at school, Dean and Sam were still isolated because of the secrets they had to keep, and it's not like they were able to make friends that they could keep for very long, but I have a real problem thinking that John did any of this consciously.  

I think it was a by-product of him wanting to get them on the road, because the same thing that came for his wife could be coming for them (and the more obvious reason of revenge).  As soon as he found out it was a demon, and that it could be in anyone, I'm sure that didn't help his paranoia when it came to outsiders.  After a little more time passed, he must have learned that the demon was coming for his youngest, and it confirmed his theory that he had to stay on the move, picking up as much knowledge about his nemesis as possible and getting practical experience along the way, while teaching his sons everything they would need to know to protect themselves with or without him, because it wasn't just the demons that were out there, but the new monsters he learned about too. And I'm guessing that when you're teaching your children to use weapons, how to be killers, and that the foes they'll face are actual monsters, you want them to listen to you and do what you say, or they'll wind up hurting themselves, or like Claire in Don't You Forget About Me, potentially hurting others, but the only experience he had with anything like that was when he was in the military; hence his drill sergeant routine rather than being a father, but I don't think that isolation factored into his plans intentionally.  It's just something that coincided with that life and probably worked to drive home the message of how family is everything.  

Edited August 2, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[SueB]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I agree and disagree at the same time, because I agree that John was the type of father he was out of fear, and I agree that isolation, when it is absolute, is a useful means of control.  Cults isolate their members from the outside world, etc.  There is a case that could be made that even while at school, Dean and Sam were still isolated because of the secrets they had to keep, and it's not like they were able to make friends that they could keep for very long, but I have a real problem thinking that John did any of this consciously.  

I think it was a by-product of him wanting to get them on the road, because the same thing that came for his wife could be coming for them (and the more obvious reason of revenge).  As soon as he found out it was a demon, and that it could be in anyone, I'm sure that didn't help his paranoia when it came to outsiders.  After a little more time passed, he must have learned that the demon was coming for his youngest, and it confirmed his theory that he had to stay on the move, picking up as much knowledge about his nemesis as possible and getting practical experience along the way, while teaching his sons everything they would need to know to protect themselves with or without him, because it wasn't just the demons that were out there, but the new monsters he learned about along the way. And I'm guessing that when you're teaching your children to use weapons, how to be killers, and that the foes they'll face are actual monsters, you want them to listen to you and do what you say, or they'll wind up hurting themselves, or like Claire in Don't You Forget About Me, potentially hurting others, but the only experience he had with anything like that was when he was in the military; hence his drill sergeant routine rather than being a father, but I don't think that isolation factored into his plans intentionally.  It's just something that coincided with that life and probably worked to drive home the message of how family is everything.  

Oh, ITA his main motivation was fear.  The John that Mary married was not some unreasonable man.  Trauma and fear drove his actions.  But I 100% believe he loved his boys.  

My personal head canon is also that the 'true love' stamp from Cupid made the impact of Mary's loss much worse.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From 6.03: The Third Man thread:

On 7/12/2017 at 0:37 AM, bettername2come said:

  Hide contents

Did Cas not answer Sam because people without souls can't pray or was he just plain ignoring him?

I used to think that it was because Sam had no soul and without his soul, Cas just couldn't hear him.  But now I think it was just guilt on Cas' part so Cas ignored Sam.  Cas lied in this ep when he told Sam he didn't know who raised him - because iirc, it's later revealed that Cas is the one who raised Sam and Cas knew he left Sam's soul in the cage.  I think Cas just didn't want to have to answer any questions from Sam, especially about why Sam might have felt 'off'.  

[bettername2come]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From 6.03: The Third Man thread:

I used to think that it was because Sam had no soul and without his soul, Cas just couldn't hear him.  But now I think it was just guilt on Cas' part so Cas ignored Sam.  Cas lied in this ep when he told Sam he didn't know who raised him - because iirc, it's later revealed that Cas is the one who raised Sam and Cas knew he left Sam's soul in the cage.  I think Cas just didn't want to have to answer any questions from Sam, especially about why Sam might have felt 'off'.  

Yeah, there's a later episode where Soulless Sam prays and Cas shows up (although it could be argued Cas was already watching him at the time), but in general I think it throws my "people without souls can't pray" theory out of the water, but damn it, it was a good theory and they should've used it!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Yeah, there's a later episode where Soulless Sam prays and Cas shows up (although it could be argued Cas was already watching him at the time), but in general I think it throws my "people without souls can't pray" theory out of the water, but damn it, it was a good theory and they should've used it!

I agree that I like the "people without souls can't pray" theory!  It makes sense to me also.  It would also have made sense, and they could have tied it in, with S11.  Alas...

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Yeah, there's a later episode where Soulless Sam prays and Cas shows up (although it could be argued Cas was already watching him at the time), but in general I think it throws my "people without souls can't pray" theory out of the water, but damn it, it was a good theory and they should've used it!

I think there is a lot of inconsistency in how they treat prayer. In early seasons it was actually literally saying a prayer that got an answer (or not).  Then by s10 it became. "I can feel a longing ...a need even without actual prayer". 

Yet I'm assuming when Dean and Sam were on lockdown that one or the other if not both, were 'needing' some divine interference but NOPE, only Billie was called upon.  And Cas had his grace back soooooo at this point who knows.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is a lot of inconsistency in how they treat prayer. In early seasons it was actually literally saying a prayer that got an answer (or not).  Then by s10 it became. "I can feel a longing ...a need even without actual prayer". 

Yet I'm assuming when Dean and Sam were on lockdown that one or the other if not both, were 'needing' some divine interference but NOPE, only Billie was called upon.  And Cas had his grace back soooooo at this point who knows.

Yep, in The Hunter Games, Cas told Claire that angels could find you if you needed them, or something to that effect.  So, he should have known where Sam and Dean were.  Now, he didn't have wings so I don't know how he would get to them.  I'm going to have to fanwank that reapers were on earth so they didn't fall and get injured, though I still find it highly unlikely that there were 0 other angels on earth.  But reapers almost have to have their wings (assuming that's how they teleport, because Billie gets around.  Or did, I should say.

[Wayward Son]

How do you guys tend to rank the demons in terms of strength (their physical power) and hierarchy (who would obey who). I know it's difficult to truly do due to later seasons retconning what came before. I tend to think of it as: 

 

- Demon!Cain prior to First Born and Deanmon. IIRC, the bearer of the mark is completely and utterly immortal and kept alive by the power of the darkness. There is nothing (with the possible exception of Deaths blade, which is supposedly powerful enough to one day reap Guck) that can kill them. They would also be vulnerable to the spell from the book of the damned that severs the mark of Cain. 

However, while both are the most physically powerful neither were the 'leader' of hell. Cain's primary purpose seemed to be training the Knights and Deanmon just wanted to do his own thing.

 

- Lilith / Post First Born Cain. Both are extremely old and extremely powerful demons that are practically impossible to kill. Since he was never tested against Sam at the height of his powers, we don't know how post mark Cain would have fared. However, we do know his loss of the mark meant he had become vulnerable to being killed by the active bearer of the mark and the first blade i.e. Dean. I also assume Lilith would have been vulnerable to the first blade and the marks bearer. 

However, while they were likely equals power wise Lilith was definitely top dog in the Hell hierarchy. 

 

- Alastair: Extremely old and extremely powerful. He was immune to Ruby's knife and numerous other things that would have damaged weaker demons. However, we also know he is significantly weaker than Lilith, as Sam was able to kill him in 4x16, while he was barely able to ruffle Lilith's hair in 4x18. I have the personal head canons that the two white eyed demons were made by Lucifer himself. Lilith to lead and Alastair to build up his army by twisting and moulding souls through torture until they became demons. 

 

- The Princes of hell i.e. Azazel, Ramiel, Dagon and Asdomeous. I assume had most of them not lost faith they'd have been the generals to lead the demons of hell. Eric Kripke also stated in an interview you didn't get much higher in the ranks of hell than a white eyed demon. Anything else was Lucifer territory. So they're down at this level.

 

- The Knights of Hell. As I understand it, they all started out as grunt demons (hence the black eye colour), but they were hand picked by Lucifer and had their abilities upgraded. I see the Princes as the generals who lead the knights.

 

-  Crossroad demons

 

- Regular Black Eyed Demons 

 

- Acheri and Daeva's. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

-  Crossroad demons

 

- Regular Black Eyed Demons 

I think black eyed demons are more powerful than crossroads demons.  With the exception of Crowley, who is like a special case, crossroads demons mostly just go around making deals.  They can teleport or whatever, but I've never been convinced other demons can't.  After all, when you summon a demon they show up.  How do they do that if they can't teleport?  Besides Crowley, we've never seen a CRD attack anyone.  We've never seen S&D have any trouble taking one down.

But, I also think black eyed demons have been downgraded severely since after seasons 1 or 2. 

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I don't think that's how Gadreel healed Sam. I think he just healed him like angels heal their vessels.

IMO, Gadreel was not so severely damaged that he couldn't heal Sam from the outside. I think he was lying to Dean so he could get a vessel.   IMO he healed Sam pretty early on and just kept lying to Dean so he could stay inside Sam.

What makes you think that? As I mentioned, its been a while since I watched seasons 8 and 9, but I could have sworn I remembered Cas firmly stating Sam had been altered at a molecular level and was beyond external healing. 

 

I figured I'd post here rather than bitch vs jerk since we are discussing the mechanics of the resurrection rather than who wronged who etc. 

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What makes you think that? As I mentioned, its been a while since I watched seasons 8 and 9, but I could have sworn I remembered Cas firmly stating Sam had been altered at a molecular level and was beyond external healing. 

 

I figured I'd post here rather than bitch vs jerk since we are discussing the mechanics of the resurrection rather than who wronged who etc. 

I have no idea what Cas said about Sam's status. I thought you were more or less musing on it, and I have no information on that so I didn't have any thing to say about it. LOL

Accepting that Cas said that, it changes my opinion about Gadreel lying about being unable to heal Sam from the outside because of Sam's condition

 ETA: To clarify further.

I was thinking that Gadreel himself was not strong enough to heal Sam externally, which is part of what I thought he was lying about.  That he needed to get inside Sam to hide from the angels, to heal himself and heal Sam. That part doesn't have to do with what Cas did or didn't say. 

Angels have always healed their vessels from the inside out. That's not a new thing. That's what I meant by the way they always have.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post.  Sorry. Hope that clears it up.

Edited August 12, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have no idea what Cas said about Sam's status. I thought you were more or less musing on it, and I have no information on that so I didn't have any thing to say about it. LOL

Accepting that Cas said that, it changes my opinion about Gadreel lying about being unable to heal Sam from the outside because of Sam's condition

 ETA: To clarify further.

I was thinking that Gadreel himself was not strong enough to heal Sam externally, which is part of what I thought he was lying about.  That he needed to get inside Sam to hide from the angels, to heal himself and heal Sam. That part doesn't have to do with what Cas did or didn't say. 

Angels have always healed their vessels from the inside out. That's not a new thing. That's what I meant by the way they always have.

I guess I wasn't clear in my first post.  Sorry. Hope that clears it up.

I looked it up! According to the Goodbye Stranger transcript Cas said the following in regards to Sam's state

 

Quote

DEAN
Stop. Just stop. Sam, we don't know what's in there, okay? And you almost let a demon get the best of you back there.

SAM
I'm fine.

DEAN
No, you're not fine. You haven't been fine since the first trial. That's why I called Cas.

MEG
Trial?

SAM and DEAN
Shut up, Meg.

SAM
Dean, I'm telling you -- I'm okay.

CASTIEL
No, you're not. Sam... You're damaged in ways even I can't heal. Dean's right. You should stay here and protect Meg.

MEG
Since when do I need protecting?

CASTIEL
Since you were held captive and tortured for over a year.

MEG
Touché.

DEAN
All right, we'll be back. [CASTIEL walks away, DEAN hands the demon-killing knife to SAM then walks away too.]

INT. ABANDONED WAREHOUSE, BASEMENT - NIGHT

DEAN
Hey, what did you mean back there about Sam? [DEAN, flashlight on, is searching the basement.]

CASTIEL
It's difficult to say. It's something on the subatomic level and his electromagnetic field --

DEAN
Okay, bottom-line it for me, Bill Nye. Is it lethal?

CASTIEL
I don't know. Wait. [They're walking through a darkened corridor when CASTIEL stops, feels the cement wall.] There's a draft. There's something behind there. Stand back. [Hand against the wall, energy flows through his hand, the wall cracks.]

So that's why I thought Gadreel was telling the truth about being unable to heal Sam from the outside I.e by just his forehead and that he could only do so via possession from the inside. It was also why I was musing that since we know angelic possession changes the host at a subatomic level (it must do to heal the damage caused to Sam at that level) then it's feasible it alters the hosts genetics enough to change the way their offspring end up also :) .

 

@catrox14

ETA: But I do agree he may not have been as eager to offer himself as an aide, if he didn't have the need for somewhere to hide safely from the other angels.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I looked it up! According to the Goodbye Stranger transcript Cas said the following in regards to Sam's state

 

So that's why I thought Gadreel was telling the truth about being unable to heal Sam from the outside I.e by just his forehead and that he could only do so via possession from the inside. It was also why I was musing that since we know angelic possession changes the host at a subatomic level (it must do to heal the damage caused to Sam at that level) then it's feasible it alters the hosts genetics enough to change the way their offspring end up also :) .

I understood what you were getting at before. I was thinking that he was lying about not having enough of his own juice, to heal Cas externally, not that Sam's condition was preventing it.

Here's what doesn't really add up.

Angels have always had the power to heal their vessels from the inside out, so I don't think Gadreel would have have some kind of subatomic super special healing for Sam. If Metatron hadn't stolen Cas' grace then he should have been able to do what Gadreel did. So then Cas must have only been speaking of healing Sam via touch vs possession, no?

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understood what you were getting at before. I was thinking that he was lying about not having enough of his own juice, to heal Cas externally, not that Sam's condition was preventing it.

Here's what doesn't really add up.

Angels have always had the power to heal their vessels from the inside out, so I don't think Gadreel would have have some kind of subatomic super special healing for Sam. If Metatron hadn't stolen Cas' grace then he should have been able to do what Gadreel did. So then Cas must have only been speaking of healing Sam via touch vs possession, no?

I think we've been getting our wires crossed! If so, sorry I've probably been the one misreading your posts. I'm going to basically summarise how I understood things so we can get back on track. Please correct what I've got wrong.

 

The way I understood your post was that you were arguing Gadreel was lying about needing to possess Sam to heal him. That you thought Gadreel could have just healed Sam by touch i.e touched Sam's forehead to heal the wounds and then leave. That you thought he lied to Dean and pretended possession was the only option as he needed somewhere to hide out from the other angels.

 

I was counter-arguing that IMO he definitely did need to heal via possession rather than touch due to Castiel's words. Although, I do agree with you he may not have been as quick to offer to possess Sam, if he weren't desperate and on the run. 

 

And yes, if Cas had of had his grace at the time he too could have healed Sam by possession. He just couldn't heal him from extrernal touch alone.

[AwesomO4000]

Bringing part of my post over from the "Bitch/Jerk" thread...

Upon further thought, I think Gadreel was lying about way more than I first considered...

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But for me, it's still not clear that that is Death in that scene. Looking back on the transcript for that scene, there's yet another argument for it not being real Death. It is interesting that Death doesn't show up until Gadreel is with Sam - alone at first, likely knowing what's going on in Sam's head, and then Dean says "If I consider this – and I mean just consider it – I need something, man. You got to prove to me how bad he is." And Gadreel says "close your eyes" to Dean and ooh, look how convenient there is the urgency with the threat of Death right there "As you can see there's not much time." Yeah, I'll bet there isn't. I mean yeah Sam is dying - no doubt, but it seems awfully convenient that just as Gadreel let's Dean eavesdrop, there conveniently is "Death" to up the stakes. I throw the bullshit flag. Oh, that and all the convenient monitor beeping of Sam going downhill? Where are all the medical people coming in to check on the supposed warnings that, according to Gadreel, just started happening? Another bullshit flag.

I think I've changed my mind from Death being solely a figment of Sam's imagination to Death being a combination of Sam's addled mind and Gadreel's influence, not only trying to convince Dean, but Sam at the same time. A master class in manipulation - step one: show Dean the urgency. I'm wondering if that even was Sam at that particular moment / scene that Dean saw now, because if Sam's getting an actual "yup, I promise I won't bring you back," from Death... wouldn't that be it - boom, Sam agreeing to be taken right then when he gets what he wanted from Death... so how is there time for Gadreel and Dean to have an entire conversation about how they will save Sam - with Gadreel being willing to back out of Sam's mind and not worry he'll lose his chance - and they go back into Sam's head and Sam's still there with Death just standing around twiddling his thumbs until Dean and Gadreel return just in time to see Death say "It's time, Sam, shall we?" Nope I throw the bullshit flag again. I should have thought of this before. I wonder what Gadreel was showing Sam at the same time that he was discussing with Dean. And step two: now after that conversation, he's got Dean agreeing to go into Sam's head with him to convince Sam to say yes. And now all of a sudden - oh look Death is saying that it's Sam's choice (another bullshit flag). Sam can change his mind about dying (something we've never seen Death assert before at all. In any way shape or form.) Bullshit from me again.

Oh yeah, now I'm fairly convinced it's not real Death or just Sam's addled brain. I think that most of that scene was Gadreel's doing - just like what he did with Sam later on, making him believe an entire fantasy scenario. And I think he did the same to Dean in order to get what he wanted, both Dean on board and Sam to say yes.

It explains all of the bullshit flags for me perfectly. The timing, no medical people responding to the monitors, Death not doing anything the way he usually would and saying things he would never say, and the convenient pause for Gadreel and Dean's conversation to get Dean on board. There could have been a real reaper around waiting, but with Gadreel's influence, Sam wouldn't be able to see him.

For what it's worth, I think Gadreel maybe did have to possess Sam to heal him... but I don't think he would've had to necessarily stay more than a moment... or that he needed to be in Sam to heal himself (it would make more sense for him to heal himself in a healthy vessel).

So theoretically, I think Gadreel could've possessed Sam, stayed put and healed him, and then skedaddled before Sam even knew anything - because Sam was up and around, talking moving, etc. and Gadreel had enough power to conceal himself from Sam. So even if possession really was necessary, I don't think prolonged possession was. Gadreel just liked the "safe" vessel and didn't want to leave.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The way I understood your post was that you were arguing Gadreel was lying about needing to possess Sam to heal him. That you thought Gadreel could have just healed Sam by touch i.e touched Sam's forehead to heal the wounds and then leave. That you thought he lied to Dean and pretended possession was the only option as he needed somewhere to hide out from the other angels.

Let me see if I can clear this up. LOL

I thought Gadreel was lying about multiple things to get into Sam's meatsuit.

1) That he was lying to Dean about Sam's injuries being too great for him to heal by touch only. The lie wasn't the severity of Sam's injuries but that he couldn't do it externally. In essence exaggerating his inability to heal him other than by possession because Sam's injuries were too severe. I didn't know anything about what Cas said because I don't remember much of Goodbye Stranger than him killing Dean a thousand times and beating the crap out of Dean because of Naomi, and Meg being killed off. Didn't remember anything about what he said about Sam.  Sorry!  So I now think I was wrong on that front.  

2) I also thought he was lying about his OWN INJURIES being too severe to allow him to heal Sam by touch but that he could heal Sam via possession because he would be healing himself along with Sam. That was the lie he used to get Dean to consider the option.  I think he was somewhat injured by not enough to justify the amount of time he was in Sam.  So maybe it wasn't a full lie but enough to get him into Sam's meatsuit.  I still think he was lying about all that. 

Does that help clear it up?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But for me, it's still not clear that that is Death in that scene. Looking back on the transcript for that scene, there's yet another argument for it not being real Death. It is interesting that Death doesn't show up until Gadreel is with Sam - alone at first, likely knowing what's going on in Sam's head, and then Dean says "If I consider this – and I mean just consider it – I need something, man. You got to prove to me how bad he is." And Gadreel says "close your eyes" to Dean and ooh, look how convenient there is the urgency with the threat of Death right there "As you can see there's not much time." Yeah, I'll bet there isn't. I mean yeah Sam is dying - no doubt, but it seems awfully convenient that just as Gadreel let's Dean eavesdrop, there conveniently is "Death" to up the stakes. I throw the bullshit flag. Oh, that and all the convenient monitor beeping of Sam going downhill? Where are all the medical people coming in to check on the supposed warnings that, according to Gadreel, just started happening? Another bullshit flag.

You know, I HAVE HAD almost these exact thoughts but I thought maybe I was way off base, but yes, I agree with ALL of THIS.  I was kind of saying similar things but not as clearly as you have. Gadreel could have easily messed with the monitors to terrify Dean into taking the deal he was offering. He was able to turn them off no problem.  It really does make all of it fall right into place. 

I'm not even going to say that it's "head!canon" accepted because I think you've laid out a pretty reasonable set of events that make it all work.

[AwesomO4000]

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not even going to say that it's "head!canon" accepted because I think you've laid out a pretty reasonable set of events that make it all work.

Yeah, looking over the transcripts to refresh my memory about what Death said, I was going wait a minute... this timeline doesn't make any sense if this is what's actually happening... Why didn't I put this theory together before?

I think reading it rather than seeing it with all of the cut in scenes and/or commercials that would normally distort the time discrepancy - because the time would seem all wonky anyway due to the distraction - I kind of said "wait a minute... how long would it take Dean and Gadreel to have that complex conversation - where Gadreel wasn't being so urgent anymore that he didn't explain all of the details - and what could Sam and Death possibly have left to say after coming to their agreement that would take exactly that long?" And my conclusion was that it made no sense unless Gadreel was manipulating the entire scenario.

Edited August 12, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think he was somewhat injured by not enough to justify the amount of time he was in Sam.

Oh definitely not. I think Gadreel either healed Sam fairly quickly, or worse - because I think somewhere along the line some being or another commented that Sam was stitched together - he healed him slowly on purpose - because he sure had the energy to do all sorts of other stuff like resurrecting dead people and dead former angels even! How could fixing Sam take that much longer than bringing back to life a person who was damaged enough to be dead?

And that thought really makes me annoyed that the show redeemed him later on - and worse that I almost liked that they redeemed him. I did not want to not hate Gadreel dammit!

Sometimes Show drives me a little bonkers.

Edited August 12, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And that thought really makes me annoyed that the show redeemed him later on - and worse that I almost liked that they redeemed him. I did not want to not hate Gadreel dammit

If they would have set up Gadreel's redemption like I don't know a few episodes after he killed Kevin, I would have been okay with it more. But I think they didn't really show why he wanted redemption. I wonder if they were trying to keep him ambiguous and book him further but maybe they couldn't get him again. It might be cool to see him show up in AU.

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yeah, looking over the transcripts to refresh my memory about what Death said, I was going wait a minute... this timeline doesn't make any sense if this is what's actually happening... Why didn't I put this theory together before?

I think reading it rather than seeing it with all of the cut in scenes and/or commercials that would normally distort the time discrepancy - because the time would seem all wonky anyway due to the distraction - I kind of said "wait a minute... how long would it take Dean and Gadreel to have that complex conversation - where Gadreel wasn't being so urgent anymore that he didn't explain all of the details - and what could Sam and Death possibly have left to say after coming to their agreement that would take exactly that long?" And my conclusion was that it made no sense unless Gadreel was manipulating the entire scenario.

Well, A+ work, Detective AwesomO4000. Seriously.

I had similar thoughts myself but I thought well, that will just be how I see it, but I feel better that I'm not alone! LOL

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Where are all the medical people coming in to check on the supposed warnings that, according to Gadreel, just started happening?

The only "reason" I can find to justify not showing up immediately is the angel attack, but even then someone is going to be running around trying to make sure patients are okay. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So theoretically, I think Gadreel could've possessed Sam, stayed put and healed him, and then skedaddled before Sam even knew anything - because Sam was up and around, talking moving, etc. and Gadreel had enough power to conceal himself from Sam. So even if possession really was necessary, I don't think prolonged possession was. Gadreel just liked the "safe" vessel and didn't want to leave.

While I agree that Gadreel lied to stay inside Sam, I think it actually was "that bad" and I'm not convinced he lied to get into Sam. I actually think he was injured to a certain extent and not at full strength--he did collapse after the fight with the other angel, after all. But, Vesta also said that Sam's insides were mush and he was being held together by pins and needles; that was months after the initial possession. Also, Cass had to continue to heal Sam after Gadreel was expelled. So, I think Gadreel might have been telling the truth about needing to possess Sam in order to heal him.

Even though I was pretty sure from the get-go there was something more to this "Ezekiel" and didn't trust him, I do think, at first, he did want to help and figured Sam could help him at the same time. And, I think he was sincere in saying that he would leave as soon as Sam was out of the woods when he was outside, but once he was inside, he didn't want to leave and that's when he started stretching the truth on Sam's well being. I think it might have started as early as Slumber Party when he told Dean every time Dean asked him to use his powers weakened him and meant he'd have to stay in Sam longer.

Edited August 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the 6.07 Family Matters thread, "King of Hell" discussion:

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

It would have happened prior to Weekend at Bobby's at the earliest, as the demon Bobby was torturing mentioned he was the king of hell. It's kinda surprising Bobby didn't mention that tidbit to the brothers though. Perhaps he thought she was lying.

Although, personally, I assume the scene in question happened long before s6 even started. 

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I'd say it happened fairly quickly after Lucifer and Michael got locked in the cage because

  Reveal hidden contents

that's how Crowley became king of Hell-by making his deal with Ramiel.

Without leadership, Hell would've went...well, to hell, long before now. 

I don't think Crowley became King of Hell right after the S5 finale.  I mean, I guess he could have, but I didn't really think there was that much leadership prior to Lucifer getting set free (and then he wasn't the leader the demons expected or wanted either), so I don't know how much impact his getting shut back in the cage (since that's where he'd been anyway) would have really had on the 'day to day operations' of Hell.  Before, there was Alastair, but was he really 'in charge'?  There was also Azazel, but there were also demons who were working against him, iir.   And he got killed at the end of S2.  So who was in charge then?  In 3.04 the demon Casey says that it's anarchy since Azazel died.  Is that when Crowley became King of hell?  But we only got confirmation of that well into S6.  I guess it depends on when Ramiel settled into his cottage.  I would think he wouldn't have been able to hide out so easily during the time Lucifer was free during S5, and would have had to have gotten involved.  But that still leaves S3-S4 with no Hell leadership.  And since the Knights of Hell hadn't been thought up as of S6, I'm sure trying to make sense of the timeline is an exercise in futility.  :) 

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the 6.07 Family Matters thread, "King of Hell" discussion:

I don't think Crowley became King of Hell right after the S5 finale.  I mean, I guess he could have, but I didn't really think there was that much leadership prior to Lucifer getting set free (and then he wasn't the leader the demons expected or wanted either), so I don't know how much impact his getting shut back in the cage (since that's where he'd been anyway) would have really had on the 'day to day operations' of Hell.  Before, there was Alastair, but was he really 'in charge'?  There was also Azazel, but there were also demons who were working against him, iir.   And he got killed at the end of S2.  So who was in charge then?  In 3.04 the demon Casey says that it's anarchy since Azazel died.  Is that when Crowley became King of hell?  But we only got confirmation of that well into S6.  I guess it depends on when Ramiel settled into his cottage.  I would think he wouldn't have been able to hide out so easily during the time Lucifer was free during S5, and would have had to have gotten involved.  But that still leaves S3-S4 with no Hell leadership.  And since the Knights of Hell hadn't been thought up as of S6, I'm sure trying to make sense of the timeline is an exercise in futility.  :) 

I think the demons were more or less following "the plan" until Lucifer got out.  When Lucifer was locked back up, that plan went to Hell (pun intended) and that's when they realized they needed a leader. So, that's when Crowley went to Ramiel.  It seemed to me that Crowley did go to Ramiel shortly after Swan Song.  I don't think he would have gotten the hole idea to append Purgatory to Hell without being in charge.

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the 6.07 Family Matters thread, "King of Hell" discussion:

I don't think Crowley became King of Hell right after the S5 finale.  I mean, I guess he could have, but I didn't really think there was that much leadership prior to Lucifer getting set free (and then he wasn't the leader the demons expected or wanted either), so I don't know how much impact his getting shut back in the cage (since that's where he'd been anyway) would have really had on the 'day to day operations' of Hell.  Before, there was Alastair, but was he really 'in charge'?  There was also Azazel, but there were also demons who were working against him, iir.   And he got killed at the end of S2.  So who was in charge then?  In 3.04 the demon Casey says that it's anarchy since Azazel died.  Is that when Crowley became King of hell?  But we only got confirmation of that well into S6.  I guess it depends on when Ramiel settled into his cottage.  I would think he wouldn't have been able to hide out so easily during the time Lucifer was free during S5, and would have had to have gotten involved.  But that still leaves S3-S4 with no Hell leadership.  And since the Knights of Hell hadn't been thought up as of S6, I'm sure trying to make sense of the timeline is an exercise in futility.  :) 

Wasn't Crowley introduced in S5 as King of the Crossroads? It's in 6x04 that the captured demon says Crowley is 'now' the King of Hell, and from the recap there's this:

Quote

Bobby summons Crowley, who arrives and discovers he is stuck in a devil's trap, again. Bobby comments that he looks like "hammered crap," and asks him about being "the Big Kahuna" in Hell. Crowley produces a flask and a shot glass, pours himself a drink, and drops two antacid tablets in it. He complains that he thought being in charge would be all "rainbows and two-headed puppies," but instead it's "Hell." He says that he tried to show demons a new, better way, and they did not respond well. He also admits that sometimes he thinks Lucifer's idea of killing "anything with black eyes" was not such a bad plan.

While it's not stated how long he has been King, to me, this implies that he'd been in charge long enough to realize the job was not all it was cracked up to be. Since we know (IMO anyway) that he was not in charge at the end of S5, that doesn't leave a very big window for the Ramiel thing to have happened.

Edited August 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think the demons were more or less following "the plan" until Lucifer got out.  When Lucifer was locked back up, that plan went to Hell (pun intended) and that's when they realized they needed a leader. So, that's when Crowley went to Ramiel.  It seemed to me that Crowley did go to Ramiel shortly after Swan Song.  I don't think he would have gotten the hole idea to append Purgatory to Hell without being in charge.

Yeah, that was pretty much my assessment of the flashback with Ramiel. Crowley was being his normal self and trying to get in good with the new boss, but the new boss named him the new boss instead. It wasn't until after he took the position that Crowley realized he needed more power in order to maintain his position and started looking for Purgatory.

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While it's not stated how long he has been King, to me, this implies that he'd been in charge long enough to realized the job was not all it was cracked up to be. 

Plus, there's also this.

Edited August 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

I have thoughts on the S3-5 hierarchy lll post later, but Crowley definitely becomes King after S5. According to the superwiki transcript for Stuck in the Middle (With You) the following is stated:

Which 

Quote

CROWLEY: Well, with Lilith and Azazel dead, and Lucifer back in his box, we need a ruler. You are next in line, Ramiel. Prince of Hell. 
RAMIEL: It’s just a name. Doesn’t mean anything. 
CROWLEY: Still, the crown is yours if you want it. 
RAMIEL: I don’t. You take it.

which clearly places it post Swan Song.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Crowley became King of Hell right after the S5 finale.  I mean, I guess he could have, but I didn't really think there was that much leadership prior to Lucifer getting set free (and then he wasn't the leader the demons expected or wanted either), so I don't know how much impact his getting shut back in the cage (since that's where he'd been anyway) would have really had on the 'day to day operations' of Hell.  Before, there was Alastair, but was he really 'in charge'?  There was also Azazel, but there were also demons who were working against him, iir.   And he got killed at the end of S2.  So who was in charge then?  In 3.04 the demon Casey says that it's anarchy since Azazel died.  Is that when Crowley became King of hell?

No, Crowley was Lilith's right-hand, according to Becky. It was Lilith who eventually took over Hell after Yellow Eyes died. The witch episode in S3 had the demon telling Ruby and Sam there was a new up-and-comer who wanted Sam's head on a pike. Jus In Bello revealed that up-and-comer was Lilith. My understanding was, once Lilith brought the demons back together after the anarchy over Yellow Eyes' death, it was she who ran Hell until Lucifer was released at the end of S4.

It seems to me Yellow Eyes had been running the show for a while when he first summoned Lucifer to find out how to get him out of the cage. I'm sure there were demons working against him, but I think that's probably true of every ruler of anything. It sounded like Yellow Eyes kept them together by giving them this common goal of freeing Lucifer and eventually winning the war with the angels.

Edited August 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, Crowley was Lilith's right-hand, according to Becky. It was Lilith who eventually took over Hell after Yellow Eyes died.

Okay, I'd forgotten about this.  The time line makes more sense now.  Thanks!

Still, I'm not sure Crowley got handed the gig right after Swan Song.  There's still the spear to consider.  How did Crowley get his hands on it, if it was, presumably, locked up in Heaven until possibly when Balthazar stole a bunch of the weapons.  Of course, I guess that depends on exactly when Heaven's armory was compromised.  

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, I'd forgotten about this.  The time line makes more sense now.  Thanks!

Still, I'm not sure Crowley got handed the gig right after Swan Song.  There's still the spear to consider.  How did Crowley get his hands on it, if it was, presumably, locked up in Heaven until possibly when Balthazar stole a bunch of the weapons.  Of course, I guess that depends on exactly when Heaven's armory was compromised.  

Crowley has a cache of stuff. He had Hands of God,  The Winchester Books.  He managed to squirrel away the Nick meatsuit in cold storage until he needed it. ( I am so proud that my spec was correct on that madness! HA!)  I think he just made deal after deal after deal or paid off some rogue angel to get it.  Maybe he got it from an angel that was supposed to be guarding it for the right price. 

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes it's after Dean has gotten stoned from the Turducken sandwich that he thinks Sam pissed off. LOL  Dean should smoke more weed to deal with his stress. LOL

I thought that's what it was from! I consider that ep to be one of the better episodes of season 7! And I really love that particular scene :D 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I thought that's what it was from! I consider that ep to be one of the better episodes of season 7! And I really love that particular scene :D 

I really didn't like that episode. This scene and Dean's fondness for, and sadness over, Ranger Rick are pretty much the only things about that episode I liked. It surprises me that Ben Edlund wrote that considering there was some Bobby with the boys retconning of the worst kind IMO. Then again, Ben did have some misses for me occasionally Malleus Maleficarum and The Great Escapist. But the humor with the sandwiches is very Ben, but the rest...I would think was Buck Lemming.  

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I really didn't like that episode. This scene and Dean's fondness for, and sadness over, Ranger Rick are pretty much the only things about that episode I liked. It surprises me that Ben Edlund wrote that considering there was some Bobby with the boys retconning of the worst kind IMO. Then again, Ben did have some misses for me occasionally Malleus Maleficarum and The Great Escapist. But the humor with the sandwiches is very Ben, but the rest...I would think was Buck Lemming.  

I didn't like it either, except for the two heart to hearts with Bobby. But, I think it's mostly because I'm mad they killed Bobby. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really didn't like that episode. This scene and Dean's fondness for, and sadness over, Ranger Rick are pretty much the only things about that episode I liked. It surprises me that Ben Edlund wrote that considering there was some Bobby with the boys retconning of the worst kind IMO. Then again, Ben did have some misses for me occasionally Malleus Maleficarum and The Great Escapist. But the humor with the sandwiches is very Ben, but the rest...I would think was Buck Lemming.  

I like it because that is one of the rare few scenes where Dean is shown to openly be mourning the loss of Cas. Plus, I love Bobby so the retconning didn't bother me in the slightest ;)

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

considering there was some Bobby with the boys retconning of the worst kind IMO

What retcons? I don't think we were ever told that Bobby didn't teach the boys to hunt hunt. Or there wouldn't be any reason he couldn't have. 

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the 6.07 Family Matters thread, "King of Hell" discussion:

I don't think Crowley became King of Hell right after the S5 finale.  I mean, I guess he could have, but I didn't really think there was that much leadership prior to Lucifer getting set free (and then he wasn't the leader the demons expected or wanted either), so I don't know how much impact his getting shut back in the cage (since that's where he'd been anyway) would have really had on the 'day to day operations' of Hell.  Before, there was Alastair, but was he really 'in charge'?  There was also Azazel, but there were also demons who were working against him, iir.   And he got killed at the end of S2.  So who was in charge then?  In 3.04 the demon Casey says that it's anarchy since Azazel died.  Is that when Crowley became King of hell?  But we only got confirmation of that well into S6.  I guess it depends on when Ramiel settled into his cottage.  I would think he wouldn't have been able to hide out so easily during the time Lucifer was free during S5, and would have had to have gotten involved.  But that still leaves S3-S4 with no Hell leadership.  And since the Knights of Hell hadn't been thought up as of S6, I'm sure trying to make sense of the timeline is an exercise in futility.  :) 

I've always thought the overall hell hierarchy was intended to be (but wasn't actually due to circumstances Lucifer didn't foresee)

 

Lilith (the first demon - she wound up being absent for an unknown period of time as she was "trapped neck-deep in the pit") > Alastair (Subservient to Lilith as shown by him taking out the reapers during Death Takes a Holiday despite his preference for remaining in hell. However, I think his main overall purpose in the war was to produce new demons as the grand torture master, so he was the master of his own little domain downstairs.) > The Princes of Hell (No clue who came before, who within this rank, since everyone but Azazel lost faith in the plan to resurrect Lucifer, according to Ramiel. In Lilith's absence Azazel took care of the matters on earth and leading the army) > The Knights of Hell (all were wiped out by Cain bar Abbadon who was stuck mid time travel and therefore were a non entity during the apocalypse), Cross-Road Demons (they were needed to tempt humans into selling their souls) and general black eyed demons (their individual strengths differed but I'd put them beneath pretty much all the demons already mentioned). 

 

* I would place Cain top in terms of individual strength, but with the exception of training the Knights the show doesn't really give any indication of his intended position within the demonic hierarchy. 

 

So with this in mind IMO the undisputed leader of hell was Azazel throughout season's one and two. Other users can feel to correct me, but I can't recall any mention of demons who were actively fighting against him for the leadership position. Plus, since Casey describes him as a "tyrant" I can't imagine him allowing any demons aspiring to do so to live long. However, IMO he was only the leader by virtue of Lilith's absence and had he lived to see her return to earth he would have obeyed her. My reasons for thinking this are 1) We know she was definitely absent from general hell dealing as she was trapped knee deep in the pit and 2) Kripke himself states she is older and more powerful than yellow eyes and in terms of status "You don't get much higher than her until you start digging into Lucifer territory."

 

When Azazel dies hell becomes a mess and there are said to be initially multiple demons vying for the top position. That we know of there were some demons, such as Casey, who wanted to follow Sam per Azazel's seeming plan, while Lilith was another occupant for the top job. By the time of Jus in Bello Lilith won and IIRC there were no further mention of demons opposing her position as the leader of hell. Then she dies and Lucifer comes to power throughout s5 before Crowley ultimately assumes the position at some point between Swan Song and Weekend at Bobby's. We know it is between those two periods because Crowley states "Well, with Lilith and Azazel dead, and Lucifer back in his box, we need a ruler. You are next in line, Ramiel. Prince of Hell. " and the first on screen mention of his new position comes from the demon Bobby was torturing for information during Weekend at Bobby's. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What retcons? I don't think we were ever told that Bobby didn't teach the boys to hunt hunt. Or there wouldn't be any reason he couldn't have. 

They went back to the past to change Bobby's role in the boys lives, hence when I'm saying it's retroactive continuity.

Bobby's role  was set up in s1 and s2 as a friend of Johns that helped him with cases. "

Pastor Jim and Caleb were the two people mentioned that the boys would stay with,  and call if they needed help when John was gone. There were no implications that Bobby was their even occasional babysitter, much less so involved that that he felt free to fight with John about raising the boys, and that the boys would call him"Uncle Bobby" in the Christmas episode (retcon 1) which usually is reserved for kids that have spent significant time with someone( I blew that off as kids being kids).

Bobby becoming a surrogate father to the boys AFTER John died, I can buy into, hence his worry for Dean selling his soul, or Dean saying he was the closest thing to a father. That was after he got out of Hell so I can see Dean having that emotional reaction trying to prove that he meant something to Bobby , when Bobby thought he was not kosher. I have no quibbles with that. My quibbles are with Bobby being a general asshole to Dean but that's not retcon. That's just character progression that I disliked.

Quote

 

DEAN:
You used to take us hunting. Remember? Dad had a case, he'd just dump us on you. Shoot, you must have taught us most of the outdoor tracking we know.

BOBBY:
Yeah, what I could get to stick. I never could get you little grubs to pull a trigger on a single deer.

 

IMO, Edlund was over reaching to give Bobby even more importance in the boys life before they killed him off.  And for ME, just my opinion, I consider it a bad retcon because it has the unfortunate implications of doing a disservice to Dean's role in raising Sam by putting them at Bobby's  apparently a lot, along with Pastor Jim and Caleb, which was a lot more than was ever implied before.

The tracking thing IMO, diminished John's role in teaching them to be hunters, where surely tracking mattered before shooting the monster.  Now, maybe I'm to think  Bobby was just a bad teacher which is why the boys couldn't ever learn to shoot a deer, but I don't think that is how Edlund wanted Bobby to be seen before he gets shot in the head.  IMO that was to bolster Bobby's cache in the boys life, to make his death more tragic.

All that did was piss me off.. LOL YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Still, I'm not sure Crowley got handed the gig right after Swan Song.  There's still the spear to consider.  How did Crowley get his hands on it, if it was, presumably, locked up in Heaven until possibly when Balthazar stole a bunch of the weapons.  Of course, I guess that depends on exactly when Heaven's armory was compromised.  

Crowley is wily and always thinking ahead. He's been shown to have stashes of all manner of items all over the world. I'd guess Bathazar raided the stash of Heavenly weapons during the chaos after the civil unrest broke out, and I'd also guess the staff was already missing long before that time. I wouldn't be surprised if Crowley had procured it years--maybe even a few hundred years--earlier and was just keeping it for the right occasion--which presented itself with Ramiel, the demon so fond of old weaponry.

Edited August 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Bobby's role  was set up in s1 and s2 as a friend of Johns that helped him with cases. "

Pastor Jim and Caleb were the two people mentioned that the boys would stay with,  and call if they needed help when John was gone. There were no implications that Bobby was their even occasional babysitter, much less so involved that that he felt free to fight with John about raising the boys, and that the boys would call him"Uncle Bobby" in the Christmas episode (retcon 1) which usually is reserved for kids that have spent significant time with someone( I blew that off as kids being kids).

They only mentioned Pastor Jim once in something Wicke,d then he got killed in Salvation.  They may have called him in Asylum when they were calling everyone for info.  They never ever mentioned staying with Caleb as kdis.

 

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There were no implications that Bobby was their even occasional babysitter, much less so involved that that he felt free to fight with John about raising the boys,

There were no implications that he wasn't. Their childhood was not mentioned all that much in the first couple of seasons, other than it sucked.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They only mentioned Pastor Jim once in something Wicke,d then he got killed in Salvation.  They may have called him in Asylum when they were calling everyone for info.  They never ever mentioned staying with Caleb as kdis.

 

There were no implications that he wasn't. Their childhood was not mentioned all that much in the first couple of seasons, other than it sucked.

I thought the ret-con of the boys staying with Bobby, and calling him Uncle Bobby in the Christmas ep, yet there being no mention of him early on, worked because they also established that he and John had a somewhat rocky relationship. So I could see him leaving the boys with him, yet also not mentioning him to young Dean as someone to call if they (John & Bobby) were on the outs at the time. It doesn't ruin the image (for me) of Dean's importance in raising Sam when they were clearly left on their own more than they were 'dumped on' Bobby.

[SueB]

Focusing on Bobby's intro in Devil's Trap, which BTS tells us was a substitute for Missouri, it's clear Dean is the one who takes them to Bobby's.  Also we've got Dean talking about how the last time Bobby almost shot John but that doesn't matter now when his life is in danger.  And Bobby calls John their Daddy.  "Daddy" is not IMO, the word someone from Sioux Falls would say. (I grew up 90 miles away).  We'd say "Dad" if it was a more casual acquaintance.  Now they may have wanted Bobby to be 'folksy' but "Daddy" COULD be used as evidence that he knew the boys when THEY referred to John as Daddy (i.e. when they were young).  That's the only way "Daddy" works, IMO.  

IMO there's only one conversation that really supports the "Bobby backstory is a retcon" and it's this one:

Quote

Sam: Bobby, this book.... I’ve never seen anything like it.
Bobby (comes over to Sam and sits on the corner of the desk): Key of Solomon? It’s the real deal, alright.
Sam: And these, uh, these protective circles. They really work?
Bobby: Hell, yeah. You get a demon in - they’re trapped. Powerless. It’s like a Satanic roach motel. (Sam chuckles)
Dean (coming over to them): Man, knows his stuff.

Sam could be interpreted as not really knowing Bobby that well OR not realizing Bobby's skills are this sophisticated.  BUT, it doesn't rule out that they were there as kids, and Bobby could have kept his hunting on the down-low for the first 9 years because Sam was in the dark.  Dean, who was witting may have picked up on more.  Then the fallout could have occurred in Sam's tween years and it was a long time between that and coming back.  Alternatively, Dean and John could have visited again when Sam was in college and that's when the shotgun incident occurred.  I'm more inclined to believe Dean knew more about what Bobby was up to when they were young and so he understood Bobby's skills more than Sam.  With that in mind and Caleb and Pastor Jim dead, Bobby was then the next logical stop on the "hunters Dad knew" list.  Because John DID keep the boys away from other hunters.  

Still, we know from BTS Bobby's importance WAS expanded later on.

Bottom line:  I think I can work a plausible backstory for all the conversations in "Devil's Trap" that do NOT conflict with future episodes.  It's reliant on Sam not seeing as much of "Bobby the hunter" as Dean,  but the shotgun incident seems memorable enough that it could explain an estrangement once the boys were old enough to not need a babysitter. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought the ret-con of the boys staying with Bobby, and calling him Uncle Bobby in the Christmas ep, yet there being no mention of him early on, worked because they also established that he and John had a somewhat rocky relationship. So I could see him leaving the boys with him, yet also not mentioning him to young Dean as someone to call if they (John & Bobby) were on the outs at the time. It doesn't ruin the image (for me) of Dean's importance in raising Sam when they were clearly left on their own more than they were 'dumped on' Bobby.

Jim also may have been closer.  Just because he lived in Blue Earth in 2005, doesn't mean that's where he was living in 1991 or whatever.  Or, Bobby might have been busy with his own hunt. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Focusing on Bobby's intro in Devil's Trap, which BTS tells us was a substitute for Missouri, it's clear Dean is the one who takes them to Bobby's.  Also we've got Dean talking about how the last time Bobby almost shot John but that doesn't matter now when his life is in danger.  And Bobby calls John their Daddy.  "Daddy" is not IMO, the word someone from Sioux Falls would say. (I grew up 90 miles away).  We'd say "Dad" if it was a more casual acquaintance.  Now they may have wanted Bobby to be 'folksy' but "Daddy" COULD be used as evidence that he knew the boys when THEY referred to John as Daddy (i.e. when they were young).  That's the only way "Daddy" works, IMO.  

IMO there's only one conversation that really supports the "Bobby backstory is a retcon" and it's this one:

Sam could be interpreted as not really knowing Bobby that well OR not realizing Bobby's skills are this sophisticated.  BUT, it doesn't rule out that they were there as kids, and Bobby could have kept his hunting on the down-low for the first 9 years because Sam was in the dark.  Dean, who was witting may have picked up on more.  Then the fallout could have occurred in Sam's tween years and it was a long time between that and coming back.  Alternatively, Dean and John could have visited again when Sam was in college and that's when the shotgun incident occurred.  I'm more inclined to believe Dean knew more about what Bobby was up to when they were young and so he understood Bobby's skills more than Sam.  With that in mind and Caleb and Pastor Jim dead, Bobby was then the next logical stop on the "hunters Dad knew" list.  Because John DID keep the boys away from other hunters.  

Still, we know from BTS Bobby's importance WAS expanded later on.

Bottom line:  I think I can work a plausible backstory for all the conversations in "Devil's Trap" that do NOT conflict with future episodes.  It's reliant on Sam not seeing as much of "Bobby the hunter" as Dean,  but the shotgun incident seems memorable enough that it could explain an estrangement once the boys were old enough to not need a babysitter. 

Just because Sam hadn't seen anything like that book, doesn't mean that he hadn't seen other books at Bobby's. That particular book may have been somewhat new to Bobby.  Using your logic, the only way that statement makes sense is if Sam has never seen any kind of lore book, which we know can't be the case.  And, just because Dean said "man knows his stuff" does not mean that Sam is not also aware of the fact that Bobby "knows his stuff."   We also know from this conversation that up until "now" demons haven't been popping up that much.  Bobby says he hears of 3 or 4 exorcisms in a year.  In Phantom Traveler, it seems like Sam and Dean are dealing with a demon for the first time.  Or at least they haven't had much experience with them.  So, no matter where they were, they wouldn't have been focusing that much on demons.

[catrox14]

On screen, Pastor Jim was referenced once, but in a way that made it clear that he was the person the boys stayed with, and was their go to contact if something happened with John, which implies that off screen that he was doing those things for John and the boys.  Bobby was never referenced as such a person in s1 which implies that off screen, Bobby was not doing those things, in the past, off screen, which is why to me this is still a retcon.

Dean knowing where Bobby lived doesn't mean the boys were there all the time as children as s7 implies.  Dean would need to know where Bobby lives now  because he's a key hunting contact.

I don't think there is much to go on that "Daddy" was purposeful to indicate that Bobby was often the boys caregiver that was implied in s7.  It might be that Bobby is basically a smart country/rural man who runs a junkyard outside of town, who hunts animals and monsters, and he might actually use  "Daddy" in his common usage. Maybe it was a choice by the actor who's played cowboys, Southern men where "Daddy" is used commonly as the term no matter if they know the dad or the kids that well.

I tend to think Kripke hadn't planned out that Bobby so well that he was going to say "Daddy" to show that he was always in the boys life. But maybe I'm not giving Kripke enough credit as the showrunner and writer.  That's just my opinion. YMMV