S04.E07: Mockingbird

[DemosthenesKey]

I believe I remember seeing a spec somewhere that it was Joffrey - he'd just gotten slapped by Tyrion for not wanting to pay his respects to the Starks about Bran falling, so there's motive for using Tyrion's knife to try to off Bran. He'd probably think it was appropriate in that twisted mind of his...

[izabella]

I really like Oberyn and I am so worried about him now.  Because I have been paying attention, and I noticed there are no happy endings in Westeros! 

 

I know the Mountain has been on Oberyn's version of the Arya Revenge Death List, so he must have prepared himself for battle against him no matter when that time came.  But it seems like too much to hope for that he would just kill the Mountain, Tyrion would go free, and Oberyn would be alive to continue to delight me.

 

At the same time, I don't quite believe the show would kill off Oberyn and then Tyrion, too.  That would be so depressing!

 

I'm going to be fretting until that battle is over.

[90PercentGravity]

At the same time, I don't quite believe the show would kill off Oberyn and then Tyrion, too.  That would be so depressing!

This is the show that gave us the red wedding.

[DirewolfPup]

Don't forget. We have to wait an extra week to get another episode. Torture!!

[izabella]

This is the show that gave us the red wedding.

 

Oh, I know!  This is not filling me with optimism.

[Pallas]

Inside the outer walls of her snow-Winterfell, Sansa stuck a twig to represent the Weirwood.  (And Robin did not knock it down when he stomped much of the rest.) Beautiful. 

[gingerella]

Inside the outer walls of her snow-Winterfell, Sansa stuck a twig to represent the Weirwood.  (And Robin did not knock it down when he stomped much of the rest.) Beautiful. 

Oh wow, I didn't catch that bit, that is indeed beautiful!  One thing I'm not clear on...is that white Weirwood different from other Weirwoods because it is always depicted as white with glowing red leaves and a yellow glow around it, and yet the other trees they've show with faces don't seem to have those same qualities, they just look like regular trees with subtle faces on the bark...

[Pallas]

...is that white Weirwood different from other Weirwoods

 

Great question, gingerella.  I can't remember -- do the Face-weir have leaves?  Maybe Snow-weir is the only known weir still alive (south of the Wall)?  Or alternately, a unique strain of albino-weir (like Ghost)?  And understood -- in religion, myth or superstition -- to have magical properties?

[gingerella]

Great question, gingerella.  I can't remember -- do the Face-weir have leaves?  Maybe Snow-weir is the only known weir still alive (south of the Wall)?  Or alternately, a unique strain of albino-weir (like Ghost)?  And understood -- in religion, myth or superstition -- to have magical properties?

Without going back and looking again, I think the Weirwood that Bran communed with two weeks back was a regular grey tree with a subtle face on it. The white Weirwood at Winterfell looks "special", but I dont know if its different from the other face trees.

[AlphaLine]

By the way, that Jorah thing is a bit of a retcon. In season 1, he clearly states that Ned Stark wants his head. So no, Ned Stark didn't spare him, he ran away ( which isn't the same thing at all ). I don't disagree with his advice, he just gave a bad analogy.

[capt planet]

Can someone remind me where the hell Stannis is sailing to this time?  Have they filled us in on this part of his plan?

[MrMicrophone]

Spec Spec! The winterfell tree is all glowy red/white because it gets worshipped more.

(note: if the Old Gods are modeled At All after the Druidic lore, this may (have?) actually

involved blood sacrifices... which might nourish a tree both naturally and magically)

[AlphaLine]

Can someone remind me where the hell Stannis is sailing to this time?  Have they filled us in on this part of his plan?

No. I complained about it in the other thread too.

 

They did the whole fake-out 'going to the wall' thing last season ( after which Stannis burned people, fiddled around and then went to Bravos ). So I guess that's the one place they're definitely not going. Kinda how Brienne started off saying they'll go to the wall, but are now heading to the Eyrie.

 

If I had to guess I'd say they are going to Bravos to join Stannis and co., And Mel wants Shireen for King's blood sacrifice. Atleast that was what I got out of the scene, it was hard to concentrate because Mel was naked again. 

 

What irks me is that they are never clear on what these guys are doing, like ever. Last season they kept talking about sacrificing Gendry, but it was never mentioned what sacrificing Gendry was supposed to accomplish. And this season the deal with the Iron bankers is not clear at all. Did they hire the Golden company, for instance? ( It was mentioned again last episode - Jorah served in it )

[capt planet]

Thanks, AlphaLine.  Thought I was either going nuts or coming down with a memory loss disorder.  That lack of clarity is probably why Stannis's storyline seems so incredibly boring to me.  I need him to cross paths with one of our main players again, or quit hogging screen time that could go to an Arya and Hound heart-to-heart (to-knife) chat.

 

Speaking of which...I wonder what would happen if Brienne and Pod really do find Arya and the Hound.  I mean, show logic says at least one of those two groups will definitely not make it to the Vale/Erie (or whatever--Crazy Lysa's place, sorry!).  Because show logic says the Stark kids can't be reunited.  So, if Brienne and Pod meet up with A&H, I wonder if that will become a battle.  Why would/should Arya trust Brienne?  Brienne and a Lannister's scribe were sent by a different Lannister to "protect" the girls.  Wouldn't that sound mighty sketchy to Arya who's never met these folks before?  Would the Hound want his bounty "rescued" from him?

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

By the way, that Jorah thing is a bit of a retcon. In season 1, he clearly states that Ned Stark wants his head. So no, Ned Stark didn't spare him, he ran away ( which isn't the same thing at all ). I don't disagree with his advice, he just gave a bad analogy.

 

AHA yes I noticed that too but promptly forgot.  Yes he said he fled the country because Ned Stark wanted his head, so unless Ned just "didn't try very hard" to catch him, or I guess he didn't send assassins to pursue him etc.,  there was no conscious decision to be merciful to him. But the point still stands, if Ned had done to him what he WANTED to do to him, Jorah would not be standing there, able to help her do further good, despite his past transgressions.

I wonder if we are supposed to be misdirected by Stannis' future plans. Similar to the S2 fakeout where we thought Tywin was riding off from Harrenhal to fight Robb, but he was actually headed to King's Landing (SURPRISE!) to save their bacon. I think we are meant to be surprised by wherever he actually heads.

[gingerella]

Spec Spec! The winterfell tree is all glowy red/white because it gets worshipped more (note: if the Old Gods are modeled At All after the Druidic lore, this may (have?) actually involved blood sacrifices... which might nourish a tree both naturally and magically).

Sorry Mr. Mic, but I gotta piss in your cornflakes on part of this one...We have never ever seen blood sacrifices from the Stark clan so I don't think this can be possible.  The part about it being a tree that a lot of people prayed at making it special, that part I could see, because the regular face trees are usually in a forest, that white one is alone inside the walls of Winterfell, so yeah, the praying part maaaaybe, but because of blood sacrifice?  I just don't see that part at all because we have never seen blood sacrifice from the Stark's or really any Northerners that I can remember.

Edited May 22, 2014 by gingerella

[abelard]

Sorry Mr. Mic, but I gotta piss in your cornflakes on part of this one...We have never ever seen blood sacrifices from the Stark clan so I don't think this can be possible.  The part about it being a tree that a lot of people prayed at making it special, that part I could see, because the regular face trees are usually in a forest, that white one is alone inside the walls of Winterfell, so yeah, the praying part maaaaybe, but because of blood sacrifice?  I just don't see that part at all because we have never seen blood sacrifice from the Stark's or really any Northerners that I can remember.

 

But in the first episode, we did see Ned cleaning his giant sword at the weirwood after he beheaded the deserter, and then the next season we saw Maester Luwin choose to die under the tree.  I wonder if both were not blood sacrifices, per se, but were acts to nourish the tree?  I think Mr. Mic might be onto something here!

[Anothermi]

Without going back and looking again, I think the Weirwood that Bran communed with two weeks back was a regular grey tree with a subtle face on it. The white Weirwood at Winterfell looks "special", but I dont know if its different from the other face trees.

Gingerella, the tree that Bran communed with certainly did look a bit grey, but I assumed that was because it was twilight when they found it.  I braved the web for images (reporting back unscathed) and The Winterfell tree is definitely glow-y white with red leaves, but it is surrounded by green-ness and sunlight.   I couldn't  copy the pic of the tree that Jon and Sam said their Night's Watch vows under but it is grey-ish white near the bottom but appears more white at the top, and the leaves are distinctly red.  I also found this picture of Bran & Co approaching the tree in question and it has red leaves and looks whiter than the others around it but a bit washed out. Not as glow-y as the Winterfell tree. 

 

Until we see a Weirwood tree north of the wall in day light I'll reserve my speculation on this.  I've already flung a wayward spitball that the tree Bran was told to seek "North" was the Winterfell God's Wood tree - partly due to a similar sense as you've put forward - but it missed it's mark by (literally) many, many miles. 

 

*Side note*  I'd forgotten that the Winterfell Tree was actually in a "woods" because we haven't seen it, except in the credits, since Season 1 (IIRC).  That little closed in annex to the Winterfell Keep was actually quite large!

Edited May 21, 2014 by Anothermi

[BellaLugosi]

I wonder if they could blame Robyn for throwing his mother out the moon door? He's always talking about tossing people out there if they make him mad. He calls it flying, he doesn't seem to understand he's actually killing someone. What would happen to him then?

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

 

Most moving quote for me (in an episode filled with them) was the Hound - "I didn't steal it. I was just playing with it." He looked positively broken then. -- WhiteStumbler

The actor also said these lines with the precise intonation of a child.  From Growly, Human Threat Clegan, it was delicious, and so sad.

Edited May 22, 2014 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[stillshimpy]

Rima! Greetings!  Want a beet?  I didn't know you were one of the Unsullied :-)  Welcome to the Wall! 

 

So today I was making pitas and thinking about this episode, which made me think of something: What the hell was with Hotpie just randomly having a wolf biscuit at the ready?  Or are we to take it he baked that after waylaying Brienne and Pod with other culinary information?  Does he always just have a wolf biscuit, just in case? I wasn't aware that he was that found of Arya.  

[janjan]

What the hell was with Hotpie just randomly having a wolf biscuit at the ready?

Brienne had talked at dinner about an upcoming feather bed, so it was next morning that she and Pod were leaving. Hotpie must have stayed up all night, first pondering whether to tell Arya's secret and then baking the wolf biscuit.

 

When Evil Guy sneaked up and nibbled on the Hound (a dog biscuit?), I was hoping against hope that that somehow signalled the return of Ja'quen (sp?). No such luck.  :-'(

 

A Show finished off Mrs. Crazypants too soon. I was enjoying her. Robin, OTOH, can go flying any time now, the sooner the better. But LF probably needs him alive to cement his claim to be regent of the Eyrie.

 

Love me some Oberyn. I especially liked the dramatic pose he struck, holding the flambeau high, when he announced that he would stand for Tyrion. Yeah! He'll probably pull a Laertes, with the poison-tipped sword, but those do have a way of sticking the wrong person. If he gets hoist on his own petard, so to speak, I'm gonna be annoyed.

[Snowblack]

A Show finished off Mrs. Crazypants too soon. I was enjoying her. Robin, OTOH, can go flying any time now, the sooner the better. But LF probably needs him alive to cement his claim to be regent of the Eyrie.

 

I wanted her to stick around a bit longer too.  The show's pacing of that storyline was way too fast.  On the bright side, we won't have to see Robin having his favorite breakfast. I was wondering how they were going to address that without causing an uproar.  As for LF, I think it's the reason he wanted a much more public wedding.  At this point we don't know who the other players at the Aerie are and what threats, if any, there are to LF's power.  I hope the show takes some time to establish that for us now, since they didn't bother to do it before killing off the recognized authority at the Aerie.

[RadiantAerynSun]

I also thought maybe Brienna/Pod were leaving the next morning when Hot Pie approached them, but it wasn't terribly clear. I had assumed that based on the presence of the wolf bread. HOWEVER, he had clearly practiced at making it as it had improved over the original, so maybe it was something he made regularly and happened to have handy.

[stillshimpy]

Maybe it had become his specialty?  Thanks guys, I was just sort of confused by the "Here, give this to Arya."  Admittedly it looked kind of like it was hardtack or something.  It's funny, I was just talking about Hotpie as one of the characters we'd never see again so I am now convinced I have character conjuring abilities.  

 

BENJEN! 

Edited May 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

I remember as a kid my mom had purchased some fancy Eiffel Tower shaped bread, maybe in France (or maybe not, I can't remember lol) that she just kept on display in the kitchen. I'm no bread expert, but she had that thing for YEARS. It was not for eating, just for display. I think at some point it broke, and she was upset, and had to serach for another. But this was years ago so may be making this all up...

[Shadowlass]

Heh, no, display bread is a real thing. I used to work at a culinary institute that had several very fancy loaves in its cafe as decoration. For years.

 

It seems reasonable to me, though, that Hot Pie simply retreated back into the kitchen and formed and baked the wolf loaf out of already prepared dough, then baked it off (It was a thin loaf, after all) as Brienne and Pod finished their meal and let the meal settle a little before heading out.

[janjan]

Shimpy sez:

. . .so I am now convinced I have character conjuring abilities. 

 

BENJEN!

Benjen!  Benjen!  Benjen!

     Ja'qen!  Ja'qen!  Ja'qen!

 

Does it work in reverse - banishing characters too boring to continue?

Stannis.  Stannis.  Stannis.

 

Maybe the threat will goose him into doing something. Anything!

[DemosthenesKey]

Disapproving Davos disapproves of your shit. :I

[stillshimpy]

I got a chance to re-watch last night, which I hadn't done on this episode prior to yesterday.  The scene with The Hound, Arya and nearly-dead-extra 673 was a lot more moving to me when I didn't spend the entire time trying to figure out if I was supposed to know the guy.  

 

Conversely, McBitey would-be-assassin might actually take the prize for the worst yet.  What was the plan there?  Did he have his teeth coated with poison?  Had he hung out with too many Goth Westrosians and thought he could drain The Hound dry with his mad vampire skillz?  Don't know, but it is wholly unsurprising that they died so swiftly.  Also, Rouge was far too stupid to have believably lived this long.  Probably would have made sense to make great haste to points elsewhere, Rouge. 

 

Also, I completely forgot about Jon and The Wall, "Oh yeah, he's in this."  Alliser Thorne makes almost no sense as a character unless he's actually working for Mance Rayder.  I can't see Mance being great at recruiting a spy, what with the "I've got the Hornfoots and the Cave People" (and apparently the tribally scarred cannibals).  Although, since I take it Mance was a Ranger, maybe.  It's just that entire "take the Zombie hand to King's Landing" got dropped like a story-hot-potato and his behavior in the scene with Jon is bizarre.  "no, no sealing of the tunnel, we'll do things as we always have.  The trolls is for the trolls (children's lit shout-out!)." 

 

He knows Jon and company just had to go and slaughter a bunch of deserters.  Thorne actually knows about the Zombonis.  He actually knows how greatly diminished their numbers were.  Therefore, the only way I can have this make sense in my head?  He's on team Mance Rayder.  

 

Either that or this is a really bad part of the story, which is what I really think is the deal. 

 

Also, that scene with LF, he was very clearly announcing he was going to put the moves on Sansa with "In a perfect world, you might have been my daughter....but we don't live on that world" and he kisses her.  Sansa does kiss him back,but pulls back and her expression isn't "OH MY GODS, what precisely is wrong with you?" and just more "Huh.  Well, this is weird and he's married and ...mainly this is weird....and holy fuckballs no my Aunt is completely going to kill me!" 

 

It's going to be interesting to find out what happens from there, because Sansa was completely aware that her Aunt was thisclose to murder-most-foul and that Petyr "saved" her, before killing crazypants Lyssa.  It also, belatedly reminded me of the time Sansa was going to kill Joffrey and The Hound stopped her. 

 

Speaking of The Hound.  Yes, the actor kills it in the "how I got maimed" story and it does seem as if he's off Arya's kill-list.  That was about the only time The Hound reminded me of a dog, sitting there trying to tend his wound, ready to snap at anyone offering help.  Here's hoping he doesn't croak from that.  We already lost more than one warrior to a wound (Drogo, to a lesser extent Robert). 

Edited May 28, 2014 by stillshimpy

[arry the orphan]

 

He knows Jon and company just had to go and slaughter a bunch of deserters.  Thorne actually knows about the Zombonis.  He actually knows how greatly diminished their numbers were.  Therefore, the only way I can have this make sense in my head?  He's on team Mance Rayder. 

 

Either that or this is a really bad part of the story, which is what I really think is the deal.

 

Here is an idea: Thorne works for Tywin Lannister! And he was ordered by Tywin to let the Wildlings invade the North!

 

 Jon said that, if Mance Rayder gets past the Wall, then there would be no army in the North to stop the Wildlings. Tywin named Lord Bolton Warden of the North, although his plan was to install Tyrions son with Sansa in Winterfell. But how would the Northerners ever accept a Lannister rule? Let the Iron Islanders, the Northerners who support Bolton and Mance Rayder fight it out! Whoever is still alive after that war (and the coming Winter) will stand no chance against the Lannister army. The Lannisters then could "save" the North and replace the disgraced Lord Bolton with Sansas child. So perhaps Thorne was captured by Lannister men on his way to KL (like Yoren) and got his marching orders from Tywin (and promise of a royal pardon). That Lord McBeard Goldcloak has become Thornes friend so fast would also be explained by that (hoping to get a pardon from Tywin as well). Of course the whole plan fell apart, when Joffrey got poisoned, Tyrion arrested and Sansa disappeared.

 

I get always the impression from Thorne that he is acting against his better judgement. Perhaps when he finally sees the Wildling army he will have a change of heart and remember his vows.

Edited May 28, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Snowblack]

Shimpy, I agree that Thorne's behavior is nonsensical.  The goldcloak guy's ignornace can be excused -- I see him as acting much like some of the Lannisters in discussing the Wall, making jokes about snarks and grumpkins.  Of course he doesn't take the threat of white walkers, giants and undead armies seriously.  But Thorne has presumably been at the wall long enough to climb the hierarchy.  He knows that hundreds of Night's Watchmen were wiped out north of the Wall, and there are only 100 men at Castle Black.  I don't know whether he believes in White Walkers and giants, but he saw the zombie for himself.  He knows there's something terrifying afoot.  He obviously hates Jon and has contempt for Sam, so he might even be excused for not believing the details of their stories.  But what about Grenn?  He's a ranger.  He was at the battle at the fist.  And there's no denying that someone filled Jon Snow with arrows south of the Wall.  At what point are there so many disturbing events that a lightbulb finally goes off in Thorne's head?  He's not stupid.  Are we supposed to believe he's so arrogant and spiteful that he will throw away his life and allow Castle Black to be overrun in his hubris?  I just can't buy that.  It's preposterous.

 

I like Arry's idea that Thorne is a Lannister minion.  But I'm not sure what the upside would be for Thorne.  That scenario implies some level of cunning in Thorne, as opposed to blind arrogance.  At some point, wouldn't he recognize that he's going to lose his life and sacrifice all those around him doing the Lannisters' bidding?  And for what?  A pardon, I guess.  But that doesn't do you any good when you're dead.

 

In any case, I don't see him living very long.  I'm wondering if this whole situation with the Wall will come to a head before the end of the season.  I certainly hope so, but we haven't seen Mance Rayder once this season, so it would kind of come out of nowhere.  I think I'll write more about this in the specualtion thread.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Snowblack

[WhiteStumbler]

Re-watched last evening, caught this -- Jorah fought for the Golden Company before pledging his sword to Viserys. They are another sell sword company in Essos and were mentioned a while back by Ser Onion Knight (in his great "Soldiers win wars, soldiers on the ground. It's dirty on the ground" speech to Stannis) -- could they be whom Stannis took North with him when he captured the Free Folk Liberation Army?

 

Stannis told the Iron Bank Committee that they had few soldiers left, and it looked like a pretty impressive cavalry charge he mounted north of the Wall, so I think they were The Golden Company, and maybe Jorah ends up working for them again and returns to Westeros? But Jorah will somehow have to obtain a pardon from Stannis to do so, and that seems unlikely.