S03.E22: Graduation Day, Part 2

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The end of SDH

Spoiler

(for the moment)

. The chance to see some familiar faces again and to say goodbye to others. Buffy and co finally graduate into the adult world, if not exactly putting childish things aside growing past them. Great to see the kids of Sunnydale High fight back at last (although has this spoiled the survival record they were all so proud of in The Prom?) Snyder's speech is a definite highlight. It's all terrific and I think we should all be proud to say that we graduated Sunnydale High, class of 1999

The Bad; Are you kidding? Well, one thing that always bothered me was after we see a devastated Mayor visiting Faith in hospital he's awfully chipper when briefing the vamps for the Graduation? Maybe the briefing the vamps scene was supposed to in a different order in the script?

Best line; Willow; "Man, just ascend already!" just beating Xander's 'Good to know that when the chips are down you can feed on the girl who loves you to save your own ass!' Also fond of Oz 'Our lives are different to other peoples'.

Character death; Byebye Larry (although his death isn't confirmed until season 6). Byebye Snyder who quite obviously had no clue what was going on. We see Harmony bitten

Spoiler

but not sired?

 And byebye the Mayor, Harry Groener will be missed, glad we'll

Spoiler

see him again a few more times

. Cordy bags her first solo vamp.

Shot; Vamps with flaming arrows, western style.

Knocked out; Faith in a coma and Buffy also unconscious. A pained Wes asks if he could he be knocked out.

Women good/men bad; The Mayor refers to Buffy as a whore, a nastily misogynist remark. Buffy says Wes 'Screams like a woman' and compares Xander and Angel to squabbling old ladies.

Jeez!; Watching the Mayor try to smother an unconscious Buffy is awful

Kinky dinky; Angel biting Buffy. The sexiest scene you'll ever see between two fully clothed lovers, once again a vamp feeding is seen as a sexual act with violence as foreplay (the second time Buffy has been bitten by a vampire but

Spoiler

by no means the last).

Willow loses her virginity to Oz, it's all so sweet. Their van sex proves Cordy's theory about danger being an aphrodisiac. Willow says that its the best time of her life.

Calling Captain Subtext; The entire Buffy/Faith dream sequence is just one huge Buffy/Faith love in, especially Faith's caressing of Buffy's face and Buffy kissing an unconscious Faith. Face it, they love each other, they're meant to be together. And remember it's Faith who gives Buffy the secret of defeating the Mayor. Angel in his delirium also mistakes Oz for Buffy, THAT would have been an interesting conversation! Wes and Cordy's kiss is a disaster, one day

Spoiler

they'll love each other plenty.

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy gets Angel into vampface by slapping him around. Is Buffy going to let Angel drain Faith entirely or give him a bit of each of their blood?

Scoobies to the ER; Buffy is taken to hospital for blood loss whilst Wes is carted away at the end.

Spoiler

Where's Dawn? Safely out of town with Joyce. However I think it's no great leap of imagination to say that the cat in the dream sequence is representative of Dawn. Indeed this could be the moment it's decided she's Buffy's sister rather than Faith's, you wonder if there's still some link between the two? Faith remarks about 'Little Miss Muffet, counting down from 730' which of course is 365x2 and it'll be 2 years before Dawnie shows up.

Questions and observations; Goodbye Angel, he makes a fantastic exit. Again, what exactly is the Mayor's plan? He obviously believes in a sort of idealised vision of Sunnydale, how is being a huge snake going to achieve that? Also although this is referred to as an apocalypse it really wouldn't be the end of the world, we've had demons like this before and the world goes on. Also surely the Military/National Guard would just blast the Mayor to bits? Especially considering what we learn about what's going on in Sunnydale next season? Xander's soldier knowledge once again comes in useful. Although I'd really have liked to have seen the hummus offensive.

The Mayor says Faith doesn't like to be cooped up,

Spoiler

prison must have been tough for her then

. Why should Wes leave the country? Would the Council really give up that easily? Shouldn't the hospital staff call the police when the Mayor tries to smother Buffy? There's a great picture of Wes in the Sunnydale High Yearbook asking 'Who is this guy? The first mention of shrimp in the Buffyverse. Anya refers to her car but then in

Spoiler

Triangle' says it's the first time she's driven?

' The Mayor says Sunnydale is 100 years old but surely the town dates back to Spanish/American times?

Lot of fanfic based on the concept of 'what if?' the ascension had succeeded. Like the one where

Spoiler

WR&H, the Initiative, Doyle, Gwen, Spike, Fred, Warren, Lorne, Tara, Gunn etc team up to set the world to rights, also fond of the monks sending Dawn to Faith as her sister, Glory killing the transformed Mayor in her quest for The Key and Faith killing her then being won back over to the good guys by her little sis' love. Also love Faith realising the transformed Mayor doesn't love her anymore so she goes to the Oracles and turns back time, even if it means she ends up in a coma, 'A Higher Being'
 

Marks out of 10; 10/10 and no mistake. For me Buffy peaks at exactly this point, it's still a wonderful show for the next 4 years and never jumps the shark but this is the best of the best and we'll never see TV consistently as good as this ever again.

Okay, now that we've hit season 4 rather than try to post an episode review/discussion thread a day I'll alternate between one ep of Buffy followed by one episode review/discussion thread of Angel, the correct way to watch them so you get the cross references and in-jokes. See you there.  

[Loandbehold]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Kinky dinky; Angel biting Buffy. The sexiest scene you'll ever see between two fully clothed lovers, once again a vamp feeding is seen as a sexual act with violence as foreplay

I always preferred the Willow-Xander-Cordy threesome in the Wishverse. With Giles as the penned voyeur. 

[illdoc]

10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

 

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Where's Dawn? Safely out of town with Joyce. However I think it's no great leap of imagination to say that the cat in the dream sequence is representative of Dawn. Indeed this could be the moment it's decided she's Buffy's sister rather than Faith's, you wonder if there's still some link between the two? Faith remarks about 'Little Miss Muffet, counting down from 730' which of course is 365x2 and it'll be 2 years before Dawnie shows up.

 

Actually, 

Spoiler

the 365 x 2 isn't the amount of time until Dawn shows up...it's the amount of time until Buffy's death. (Dawn shows up about 15 months after graduation day (beginning of Season 5), while Buffy dies at the end of Season 5--two years.

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, illdoc said:

Actually, 

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the 365 x 2 isn't the amount of time until Dawn shows up...it's the amount of time until Buffy's death. (Dawn shows up about 15 months after graduation day (beginning of Season 5), while Buffy dies at the end of Season 5--two years.

Huh, good point, yes this the last ep of season 3 and 

Spoiler

Dawnie shows up with the 1st ep of season 5.

 

15 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I always preferred the Willow-Xander-Cordy threesome in the Wishverse. With Giles as the penned voyeur. 

I have to say  that was just disturbing, Buffy doesn't die as Wishverse CC does. 

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Yes, this is PEAK Buffy. There are great episodes after this, but Buffy is never as consistently good again and never builds up a plot as efficiently as here.

 

The Faith/Buffy dream sequence is one of my favorite scenes in the episode, of which there are many obviously. It begets the question though, do they both really share that dream and is Faith willingly sharing that information with Buffy to support her or is this solely Buffy's dream with some higher power or her slayer power guiding her? 

 

One of my other favorite moments is when the students lose their graduation gowns and start fighting the mayor. The music in that scene is spectacularly done by Christophe Beck, the flaming arrows are kinda cool, and just the direction and camera movements are sublime. It gives you the feel of an epic battle, even though nowadays I can see the limitations as the snake is never really in an actual frame with the cast.

 

I love that Cordelia got to slay her first vampire here, it's actually surprising that she had never staked one before. I also love the show of Jonathan jumping a vampire. I wish 

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that had been his last appearance on the show. Would have been a powerful moment to go out on, rather than his dumb arc later in the series.

 

We heard his neck snap. It was pretty obvious that he was dead.

 

He was fantastic.

Remember we see Faith have her own version of the same dream in

Spoiler

'This Year's Girl'

but with a very different spin on it? 

CC may have got one before during the Nighthawk period but it's the first we see on screen. No, I love Jonathon, the more of him the better.  

As for Larry, we've seen people on the show survive worse (it wasn't necessarily his neck that snapped), I think that's why they slipped in the reference to him in s6, to clear it up for the fans. 

[lembergwatcher]

This is definitely peak Buffy. And a landmark episode in the history of Sunnydale and the Hellmouth. 
For the first time Buffy and her friends assembled the force, recruiting most of their fellow graduates in order to stop the mayor and his cronies. Some of those from Class of '99 performed quite well. Question: why not approach said guys and gals and ask 'em to join the fight? The survival of mankind can't still rely solely on four teenagers and a former librarian! True, not all of Sunnydale High graduates fit to be demon hunters, but, say, Percy fought side by side with Angel and won...

Also the whole battle was witnessed by a considerable number of people (teachers, parents). Not all of them suffered from denial syndrome. Most of the survivors definitely had families and friends, and some of them, I do believe, cared to share their new experience. Some wrote diaries, others had access to the internet. So the news should have spread across Sunnydale quite quickly. "Gas leak" was a good distraction for the outside world, but people who saw eveything with their own two eyes should have been less gullible. As a direct result of the Battle of Ascension, the presense of the things that go bump in the night should no longer be a secret for most of Sunnydale's residents. Sunnydale isn't LA or other metropolis. In this day and age it's hard to keep everything clandestine in places like that.
 

 

What I'm tryin' to say is that the whole Initiative shtick with sneaking around trying to look like a casual UC Sunnydale students is freaking pointless after revealing that demonic forces do exist in good old SunnyHell. Not that the Initiative's mission was meaningless, no, but the level of secrecy and everyone around acting like nothing happened last summer was kinda weird. Why not accept the obvious? Of course, Maggie and her boys shouldn't be bragging about 314 sitting in the Espresso Pump, but I dare say it should not be necessary for Riley and his men to always go plainclothes while patrolling. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, things in SunnyD couldn't be like they were before 1999. For Christ's sake, what did they do to keep the mouths of SH graduates and other eyewitnesses shut? Did they bring in the police, the FBI or military intelligence? Did they track down each and every one of the battle's veterans - including the Scoobs - and make them sign confidentiality agreements? Incarcerate dozens/hundreds of people? Did they ask the Monks of Mindfuck to wipe the minds of the entire population of California, Questions, questions, questions. JMO, of course

.

Edited August 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎22‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 1:14 AM, lembergwatcher said:

This is definitely peak Buffy. And a landmark episode in the history of Sunnydale and the Hellmouth. 
For the first time Buffy and her friends assembled the force, recruiting most of their fellow graduates in order to stop the mayor and his cronies. Some of those from Class of '99 performed quite well. Question: why not approach said guys and gals and ask 'em to join the fight? The survival of mankind can't still rely solely on four teenagers and a former librarian! True, not all of Sunnydale High graduates fit to be demon hunters, but, say, Percy fought side by side with Angel and won...

Also the whole battle was witnessed by a considerable number of people (teachers, parents). Not all of them suffered from denial syndrome. Most of the survivors definitely had families and friends, and some of them, I do believe, cared to share their new experience. Some wrote diaries, others had access to the internet. So the news should have spread across Sunnydale quite quickly. "Gas leak" was a good distraction for the outside world, but people who saw eveything with their own two eyes should have been less gullible. As a direct result of the Battle of Ascension, the presense of the things that go bump in the night should no longer be a secret for most of Sunnydale's residents. Sunnydale isn't LA or other metropolis. In this day and age it's hard to keep everything clandestine in places like that.
 

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What I'm tryin' to say is that the whole Initiative shtick with sneaking around trying to look like a casual UC Sunnydale students is freaking pointless after revealing that demonic forces do exist in good old SunnyHell. Not that the Initiative's mission was meaningless, no, but the level of secrecy and everyone around acting like nothing happened last summer was kinda weird. Why not accept the obvious? Of course, Maggie and her boys shouldn't be bragging about 314 sitting in the Espresso Pump, but I dare say it should not be necessary for Riley and his men to always go plainclothes while patrolling. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, things in SunnyD couldn't be like they were before 1999. For Christ's sake, what did they do to keep the mouths of SH graduates and other eyewitnesses shut? Did they bring in the police, the FBI or military intelligence? Did they track down each and every one of the battle's veterans - including the Scoobs - and make them sign confidentiality agreements? Incarcerate dozens/hundreds of people? Did they ask the Monks of Mindfuck to wipe the minds of the entire population of California, Questions, questions, questions. JMO, of course

.

I always they didn't bring in everybody because or folks like Owen in NKABOAFD or Moo, it was best to keep it just a small, tight group who could be relied upon. As for SDH, magic and some lame story such as a gas leak which made everyone hallucinate then blew up the school?

[lembergwatcher]

I love it when they cut some important lines from the scrypt.

Quote

Buffy:  "Well, I'm going to need every single one of you on board.  Especially you Xander.  You're sort of the key figure here."
Xander:  "Key? - Me?  (takes a deep breath). I thought my only contribution to the gang was bringing doughnuts... (nods at Cordelia)  Okay, - pride, - humility, - and here is the mind numbing fear... It's not because of doughnuts, is it?  (gets a glare from Buffy, then sighs)  What do I have to do?"

Joss & Co, they never cease to amaze me: nobody gave a damn about Xander's mystical military knowledge throughout the whole season, but then all of a sudden it started to matter again. Like Buffy and the rest have just woken up from a catatonic state and remembered the whole rocket launcher thing. I doubt they couldn't benefit from Xander's knowledge of all things military on some occasions in the past. Then again the mere fact of them allowing Xander to use his only super power at least three times post-Innocence would be grounds for a national holiday IMO. 

Spoiler

The very last times were The I in Team and Goodbye Iowa in the following season AFAIK.

And last but not least. If I were you, Xand, I would run away from SunnyHell as far as I could as fast as I could immediately after the battle with the Mayor.

Spoiler

'Cause if you knew what lies ahead you would never feel very inspired about it all.

But before leaving I would burn Oz's minivan :)

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I love it when they cut some important lines from the scrypt.

Joss & Co, they never cease to amaze me: nobody gave a damn about Xander's mystical military knowledge throughout the whole season, but then all of a sudden it started to matter again. Like Buffy and the rest have just woken up from a catatonic state and remembered the whole rocket launcher thing. I doubt they couldn't benefit from Xander's knowledge of all things military on some occasions in the past. Then again the mere fact of them allowing Xander to use his only super power at least three times post-Innocence would be grounds for a national holiday IMO. 

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The very last times were The I in Team and Goodbye Iowa in the following season AFAIK.

And last but not least. If I were you, Xand, I would run away from SunnyHell as far as I could as fast as I could immediately after the battle with the Mayor.

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'Cause if you knew what lies ahead you would never feel very inspired about it all.

But before leaving I would burn Oz's minivan :)

Oz is Xander's friend? Plus he's fine with Willoz. Also Xander's military knowledge tends to be rather gun orientated which is something they try to avoid. 

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Oz is Xander's friend? Plus he's fine with Willoz. Also Xander's military knowledge tends to be rather gun orientated which is something they try to avoid.

1. No, he isn't. 2. And where's the evidence to prove the point? Just because Xander tolerated that affair? We don't know that much about what Xander feels, thinks or likes throughout the second half of the season (OTOH his attempted road trip could have been fueled by his desire not to see Willoz among other things). 3. And why do they try to avoid it? Are all the demons immune to gunshot wounds? What about bullets soaked in holy water?

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

1. No, he isn't. 2. And where's the evidence to prove the point? Just because Xander tolerated that affair? We don't know that much about what Xander feels, thinks or likes throughout the second half of the season (OTOH his attempted road trip could have been fueled by his desire not to see Willoz among other things). 3. And why do they try to avoid it? Are all the demons immune to gunshot wounds? What about bullets soaked in holy water?

1. He is, look at how he greets him

Spoiler

when he returns in New Moon Rising?

2. Post their affair we never see him jealous of Willoz again and he tries to help her when Oz's eyes wander.

3. I don't think Joss wanted teenagers toting guns in high school, changes his mind in Firefly and the later seasons of Angel. You also could argue it would start an arms race with vamps getting guns too.   

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Post their affair we never see him jealous of Willoz again

Post their affair

Spoiler

and up until the following season

we don't see Xander that much, 'cause he's fairly marginalized throughout the rest of the season 3. There are no Xander-centric eps since The Zeppo

Spoiler

up until season 5 AFAIK.

How do we know whether he was jealous/not jealous of Willoz if we do not see any W/X interactions without other people in the picture from The Zeppo 

Spoiler

to Wild at Heart

and their only interaction in Consequences (when both were sent searching for Faith) remained off screen?

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

look at how he greets him

Spoiler

A simple gesture of politeness doesn't prove anything.

Edited October 29, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

On 10/27/2018 at 9:02 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I love it when they cut some important lines from the scrypt.

Quote

Buffy:  "Well, I'm going to need every single one of you on board.  Especially you Xander.  You're sort of the key figure here."
Xander:  "Key? - Me?  (takes a deep breath). I thought my only contribution to the gang was bringing doughnuts... (nods at Cordelia)  Okay, - pride, - humility, - and here is the mind numbing fear... It's not because of doughnuts, is it?  (gets a glare from Buffy, then sighs)  What do I have to do?"

 

Seriously?  Joss didn't even write the fucking doughnut-fetching episode, that was Dan Vebber.  Who left the staff after that, so perhaps Joss oversaw the Zeppo-fication, but still.

And along those lines, Joss probably also signed off on Xander's telling Buffy "You totally contribute [to the research]…you go for snacks!" in What's My Line, Part 1 the year before, even if the credit for that script goes to Howard Gordon and Marti Noxon. Ah, FFS.  Another reason to love S1, where everyone is useful (see The Puppet Show or Out of Mind, Out of Sight) and there are no stupid "you go for snacks!" character assassinations.  Sigh.

[Halting Hex]

Upon further reflection, I'm even angrier at "I thought my only contribution to the gang was bringing doughnuts" than I was before.  (And yes, Joss cut the line from the aired episode, good for him.  But it should never have been in the script to begin with.)

Is Joss trying to claim that Xander (who spent the previous summer patrolling the Hellmouth in Buffy's absence, let's not forget) has done nothing but bring doughnuts since The Zeppo?  Blatantly untrue.  In Enemies, Xander leads an assault on the Crawford Street Mansion to rescue Buffy from "Angelus" and Faith.  Yes, yes, just a hoax being perpetrated by Buffy, Angel and Giles (as I call them in this episode, "the lying conspiracy of jerks"), who have somehow decided that Xander/Willow/Oz/Cordelia and Wesley can't be trusted, but Xander doesn't know that, obviously.  He thinks he's leading five decidedly non-super-powered people (Willow's magic is still pretty useless at this point) against an exceedingly vicious vampire and a rogue Slayer (one of whom went unpunished for murdering Jenny on Buffy's "no, he's good again" word and the other of whom Xander still has his head spun over losing his virginity to), but he doesn't care.  He's still "rushing off to die for [his] beloved Buffy", to quote Cordelia.  So a bit more than doughnuts, FFS.

And this comes right after Döppelgängland, where Xander (along with Buffy, Angel, and Giles) rescues a Bronze-ful of civilians from a slew of vampires, no "stay back, Xander, we wouldn't want you to trip over your feet" or other "fray-adjacent" cautioning involved.  Who wrote and directed that episode, again?  Oh, yeah…Joss Whedon.  You'd think Joss would at least remember his own characterizations, wouldn't you?  But apparently…not.

Feh.  I'm still wishing that Xander had dusted Angel with a crossbow shot in Enemies before Buffy had time to explain the con, but no such luck…

[lembergwatcher]

52 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Seriously?

Well, it was kind of sarcasm on my part. I don't know whether Joss intended to make Xander say those words in the original scrypt or not (but I won't be surprised if he did). I wanted Xander to say that line though in order to provoke some reaction from Buffy and the rest. But I totally agree with you. Xander wasn't there just to bring doughnuts. What I wanted to stress is how others viewed Xander's contribution to the cause rather than his actual contribution. In this regard I find his "quantum leap" from "useless part of the group" to the "Key Guy" quite strange and somehow improbable.

 

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Another reason to love S1, where everyone is useful

That's the reason I love the pre-season 3 Buffy the most. No one gave a damn about super powers and there were no division between the "useful" and the "useless", 'cause everyone contributed in one way or another. Starting with season 3 the writers decided for some twisted reason that some Scoobs were "better" the others and that it'd be better for some characters (namely W, X & C) to stay away during the episodes' climaxes (i. e. leaving them stuck in the library while someone like Snyder literally became "the Scooby for the night" in Band Candy).

 

41 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

You'd think Joss would at least remember his own characterizations, wouldn't you?  But apparently…not.

It wasn't only Joss' problem, it was some sort of Buffy Writing Disease, i.e. the chronic inability to follow his or her own characterizations. Regarding Xander I find it very bizarre that most writers (and Joss himself sometimes) seemingly forgot Xander's role in Prophecy Girl. Most of the time they wrote his character like 1.12 never happened.

51 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Feh.  I'm still wishing that Xander had dusted Angel with a crossbow shot in Enemies before Buffy had time to explain the con, but no such luck…

Oh. Well, so do I. But I'm afraid Xander himself wouldn't live too long after that because of some lovesick and thus pissed-off Slayer.

[Halting Hex]

Oh, tsk-tsk.  I thought those were actual lines from the shooting script.

Although the fact I was so easily fooled says a bit about my wariness wrt character decline, I suppose.  But still.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:01 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Post their affair

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and up until the following season

we don't see Xander that much, 'cause he's fairly marginalized throughout the rest of the season 3. There are no Xander-centric eps since The Zeppo

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up until season 5 AFAIK.

How do we know whether he was jealous/not jealous of Willoz if we do not see any W/X interactions without other people in the picture from The Zeppo 

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to Wild at Heart

and their only interaction in Consequences (when both were sent searching for Faith) remained off screen?

 

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A simple gesture of politeness doesn't prove anything.

Well, it's what we see on screen vs supposition? 

[Halting Hex]

Interesting to note that while Dr. Powell (name from the shooting script) asks Angel if he and Buffy were doing drugs, nobody bothers to inquire about whether Angel's responsible for the fact that Buffy has, you know, lost nearly all of her blood.  The Sunnydale police are apparently not only "deeply stupid", but really, really lazy.  I mean, he should at least have to make a statement, I'd think.

Interesting to look at the script and see that this exchange (after Angel tells the Scoobs "she's gonna be fine") was not in the shooting script:

Quote

WILLOW:  She won't be a vampire?
ANGEL (looking down again):  No. - She didn't feed off me.

A late addition, I suppose, to clear up this plot point for any newcomers, and to show more of Angel's guilt and the Scoobs' disquiet.  Good decision by Joss, especially because Aly really sells Willow's anxiety here.  Pretty much my favorite part of the episode.

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WESLEY (reading): "Darkness will follow, the day become night..."

BUFFY: An eclipse.

WESLEY: Standard procedure during an Ascension.

ANGEL: That puts me back in the game.

Yes, Angel, now you get to fight.  And so do the dozens (hundreds?) of vampires on the Mayor's side.  I'm not exactly sure that jumping up and cheering (essentially) is the right reaction here.

And to think, you used to call Buffy out on her ego.  Sheesh.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

One of the problems I have with the episode is that they've known since Enemies when the ascension will occur. Yet nobody, not Giles, Wes, Buffy, Willow, or Xander bothers to ask whether or not something special happens on that day, you know, besides a high school graduation. Eclipses haven't been kept secret for at least, oh, 15 years or so. Bad research, Scoobies. Bad, bad research.

Another problem is that we were never once shown the mandatory gym class where the students are taught how to shoot flaming arrows. Or make pitch. Or even string a bow.

[lembergwatcher]

What can I say? Livin' on the Hellmouth makes you extraordinary...

[Halting Hex]

I don't think everybody shot the arrows, since Xander calls "Bowmen!" at one point.  Presumably Xander asked around, "hey, who's good at archery?"  Maybe they even have a team.  (It is an Olympic sport, after all.)

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

One of the problems I have with the episode is that they've known since Enemies when the ascension will occur. Yet nobody, not Giles, Wes, Buffy, Willow, or Xander bothers to ask whether or not something special happens on that day, you know, besides a high school graduation. Eclipses haven't been kept secret for at least, oh, 15 years or so. Bad research, Scoobies. Bad, bad research.

Another problem is that we were never once shown the mandatory gym class where the students are taught how to shoot flaming arrows. Or make pitch. Or even string a bow.

You know it's California, they have very progressive education. 

[Loandbehold]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You know it's California, they have very progressive education. 

Wouldn't learning how to fire primitive weapons be more of a regressive education?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:13 PM, Loandbehold said:

Wouldn't learning how to fire primitive weapons be more of a regressive education?

Probably to interest the students in Native American culture?

[lembergwatcher]

It seems like history of walking away unharmed after every single encounter with the supernatural forces, be it vampires attacking the parent-teacher night, prehistoric parasites taking over both students and teachers at SHS, snakes in the school cafeteria, pissed-off Slayer with a big-big sword, his own "one night thing" with the Scooby Gang thanks to magic candy bars or meeting the spider-like demonic creatures from the Box of Gavrok, did old Snyder no good eventually. Judging from the way he behaved when the Ascension started, the troll's need for self-preservation has turned out to be pretty dulled. Therefore his luck ran out. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎31‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, lembergwatcher said:

It seems like history of walking away unharmed after every single encounter with the supernatural forces, be it vampires attacking the parent-teacher night, prehistoric parasites taking over both students and teachers at SHS, snakes in the school cafeteria, pissed-off Slayer with a big-big sword, his own "one night thing" with the Scooby Gang thanks to magic candy bars or meeting the spider-like demonic creatures from the Box of Gavrok, did old Snyder no good eventually. Judging from the way he behaved when the Ascension started, the troll's need for self-preservation has turned out to be pretty dulled. Therefore his luck ran out. 

I always got the impression he genuinely hadn't a clue what was really going on?

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I always got the impression he genuinely hadn't a clue what was really going on?

Judging from his conversation with Sunnydale police chief in I Only Have Eyes for You Snyder was well aware of the town's dark side...

[Halting Hex]

Obviously, Snyder's aware they're on a Hellmouth, since he mentions it to Chief Bob.  But I think that he's of the belief the Mayor is covering it up to prevent panic and preserve order, and so when Wilkins turns into a Big Snake, Snyder suffers a disconnect.  Followed by chompage.

[lembergwatcher]

Xander's promotion from the "useless" part of the group to the "key guy" is as believable as private's promotion to the rank of General in one fell swoop. Either Joss' incompetence or Buffy's blatant hypocrisy, one or the other, I guess. Come on, they told him to stay "fray-adjacent" not so long ago! For I doubt all those errands he ran as a donut/supply boy are a credible excuse for Buffy's decision. What exactly did Xander do to get his promotion in the season's finale? 

And don't tell me about his so-called "military knowledge", 'cause no one gave a damn about it since Innocence. Did Xander become a "key guy" solely because of those drugs he allegedly brought to the library along with some magical supplies?.. Snyder seemed fairly suspicious about drugs in his school.

But let's not talk about it anymore. There are other answers I'm still waiting for. For example:

1) Who told Buffy the rest of the Class '99 will go along with her plans to fight the Mayor instead of, you know, skipping the graduation ceremony and running away? And why do the students bring their parents and friends to Sunnydale High for the ceremony if they know something not good is awaiting them?

2) Since when does Xander's prestige among his schoolmates become so high everyone accepts the guy, who was looked down upon as a loser and a clown for years, as some sort of "military commander" and start following his orders? If you treat someone like dirt for a very long time, how can you all of a sudden trust this person with your life?

3) I don't remember Buffy, Angel or Giles teaching Willow even simple basics of self-defence. Therefore what's the redhead even doing in the middle of a fight??? Shouldn't Giles tell Willow exactly the same words he told Xander at the beginning of The Zeppo: "It would be best if you hung back to the rear of the battle for your own sake"? You mean, they're afraid Xander might get hurt, but they don't give a damn about Willow? Come on! I saw Choices, after all.

4) I can understand mobilizing Percy, Larry and the likes, and even involving Jonathan in the whole battle plan. But could somebody tell me WHY THE HECK RECRUIT FUCKING HARMONY??? That Harmony... she was so well-known for her amazing fighting skills, yeah. And she was such a goooood friend with B/W/X...  And, more importantly, she of all people couldn't betray them or at least give Xander the most obvious (and logical) answer in her case: "fuck off"... 

And last but not least: never in a million years could Oz and Willow make it to the graduation ceremony before Dick Wilkins ascended into Olvikan. Because I don't know anyone eager to exchange sex with Willow for a demon-fighting. They should have finished while the battle was raging on.

Edited March 17, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

1) Who told Buffy the rest of the Class '99 will go along with her plans to fight the Mayor instead of, you know, skipping the graduation ceremony and running away? And why do the students bring their parents and friends to Sunnydale High for the ceremony if they know something not good is awaiting them?

Nobody told her; she had hopes, based on the student body's showing their appreciation for her work in The Prom.  Quite possibly some did run away, but she just had to hope she could recruit as many as possible.

As for the parents attending, it was rather short notice for the kids to shoo them away.  ("Mom, you can't come to Graduation because the Mayor is going to turn into a big snake and try to eat us and I have to help kill him" would earn a quick trip to the rubber room, if Mom isn't in the loop the way Joyce is.  And Buffy gave her an extra day's notice [in Part 1] and it still was a bit of work to convince her.)

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

2) Since when does Xander's prestige among his schoolmates become so high everyone accepts the guy, who was looked down upon as a loser and a clown for years, as some sort of "military commander" and start following his orders? If you treat someone like dirt for a very long time, how can you all of a sudden trust this person with your life?

Buffy vouched for him.  They may not know about Harris, but they trust Buffy.

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

3) I don't remember Buffy, Angel or Giles teaching Willow even simple basics of self-defence. Therefore what's the redhead even doing in the middle of a fight???

Well, she seems to do all right with that harpoon thing, it would appear.  Just because we didn't see them teach her, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We don't see everything, after all.  (Most notably, Angel's first visit to Giles's flat, which allowed his return in Passion, for example.)  

And after the initial mass assault, Buffy tells Willow to scram.  So she's not expecting Will to be leading the charge or anything.  Willow's a one-and-done.

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

4) I can understand mobilizing Percy, Larry and the likes, and even involving Jonathan in the whole battle plan. But could somebody tell me WHY THE HECK RECRUIT FUCKING HARMONY???

Because, to quote a Bob Dylan song that's so much about gay sex* it would make Seth Macfarlane blush**, Harmony has "many contacts among the lumberjacks".  Or in this case, cheerleaders and ex-Cordettes and the like;  Harmony is the contact person for the portion of the student body that would be least likely to rally to the cause, otherwise.  A pity she apparently dies a hero, but good on her for making the effort.

*-"Ballad of a Thin Man", the "you don't know what's happening, do you, Mr. Jones?" song.  In 2006, I was working with an older, dignified gentleman named David Jones (who was also organizing the 50th reunion of the Los Angeles High class of '56, where George Takei was one of David's classmates [George attended the reunion]) and I took a bit of pleasure in gently ribbing David as to what that "Mr. Jones" song was actually about.  I'm a stinker sometimes, I admit it.

**-I don't know if anyone here saw "Primal Urges", the wall-to-wall gay porn episode of The Orville, but I was like "okay, Seth, I get it.  Honestly, I get it.  You're gay, the show's a vehicle for you to tackle gay issues without coming out, I GET IT.  Can we rest, now?"  I mean, good for him, but enough, already…

Speaking of sex…

12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

never in a million years could Oz and Willow make it to the graduation ceremony before Dick Wilkins ascended into Olvikan. Because I don't know anyone eager to exchange sex with Willow for a demon-fighting.

Well, apparently Oz doesn't have wolf-stamina when in human form.  He did his business and then there was nothing to keep Willow from being next to Buffy when Buffy needed her.  Not that anything as mundane as sex with Wolf-Boy would do that, anyhow. 😉 

"Gee, Oz, that was great, but I gotta get back to Buffy now, okay?  See you later if we don't die!" [/headcanon]

I mean, Xander and Cordelia sat next each other, and they were broken up! (Unless "skipping fifth period" in Part 1 meant what some diehard C/X fans hoped [and I think ficced] that it meant, but then he really should have told Anya why exactly he wasn't interested in leaving town with her, particularly.)  But nothing comes between Buffy and Her Willow, nuh-uh! 😊

Edited March 18, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Nobody told her; she had hopes, based on the student body's showing their appreciation for her work in The Prom.

Giving Buffy her umbrella is one thing. Which doesn't mean that much, after all. Following her lead during the battle is something completely different.

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy vouched for him

It's good to know Buffy's ratings went up so many points in such a short period of time everyone was ready to obey goofy Xander Harris if Buffy told them to. But, then again, why nobody else from Class '99 voluntered to join the SG to help fighting the good fight after the battle with Wilkins' forces was over, if they had such a strong faith in the Slayer?

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Harmony is the contact person for the portion of the student body that would be least likely to rally to the cause, otherwise.

That doesn't explain why she had to participate in the actual combat.

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Just because we didn't see them teach her, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We don't see everything, after all.

You mean they found the time for that considering their schedule (Buffy constantly patrolling/snuggling with Angel at the mansion, Angel brooding in his apartment during the day and having Buffy smoochies at night, Willow doing her best to satisfy her precious "taciturn man", Giles being dick to Wesley)? Even if that's the case they were very crappy teachers.

Spoiler

Because Willow seems to be as capable in fighting as Xander and is knocked out during most confrontations after or together with her childhood friend.

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But nothing comes between Buffy and Her Willow, nuh-uh! 😊

I don't want to sound mean here,

Spoiler

but we all know how Buffy will eventually repay "her" Willow for everything :)))

Edited March 18, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

You mean they found the time for that considering their schedule

Sure, a couple of afternoons' worth of training with ranged weapons doesn't seem that big of a deal.  There's plenty of hours between schoolwork and Bronze/patrol available.

Presumably this is when Xander became proficient enough to instruct/lead a corps of bowmen, for that matter.  And yes, neither half of Xillow is a close-combat threat, but that's what we have big lurky lunky vampires for, right?

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Spoiler

but we all know how Buffy will eventually repay "her" Willow for everything :)))

Hey, at least she didn't

Spoiler

get stabbed through the gut with a sword and sent to Hell or incinerated via the gift of Magic Bling ("when you care enough to watch the bastard fry, at last")

.  Relatively speaking, I count that as a win.

[lembergwatcher]

Always wondered whether Adam (The Harvest, The Pack), Lishanne (Witch), Blayne (Teacher's Pet), Owen (Never Kill a Boy on the First Date), Lance (The Pack), Elliot (Puppet Show), Wendell & Laura (Nightmares), Mitch (OOMOOS), Chris & Eric (Some Assembly Required), Ben (IOHEFY), Michael (Gingerbread), Hogan & Freddie (Earshot), Jack (The Prom) and the rest of the Cordettes except for Aura (Aphrodesia, Miss Motormouth, Shanice, Gwen, etc) made it out alive after the Big Fight/destruction of Sunnydale High?

[Loandbehold]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Always wondered whether [...] made it out alive after the Big Fight/destruction of Sunnydale High?

To paraphrase the conversation b/w Buffy and Giles: 

B: Some people didn't make it.

G: Most of them did. 

My guess is not all, but more than a few survived. Pick your favorites and they made it. Anyone you didn't like, well, the Sunnydale mortuaries and headstone builders got some more business.

[Halting Hex]

On 4/27/2019 at 11:00 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Elliot (Puppet Show),

What, you're concerned about Elliot's fate, but you blithely pass over Lisa?  You anti-tubist!!  😠

And no interest in Mitch (OOM, OOS)?  You'll be lucky if his dad doesn't sue.  ("Other lawyers call him 'the Beast'!")

And what about Holly Charleston and Michelle Blake (Homecoming)?  You're not still bitter about their triumph over Buffelia, are you?

Spoiler

ETA:  As for former SHS students who did not appear in Graduation Day Part 2, we know at least that Scott Hope survived.  Since, in CwDP, Holden says that Scott came out "last year".

Edited April 28, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

9 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

And no interest in Mitch (OOM, OOS)?

I mentioned Mitch! Besides, it's Snyder's concern whether Mitch's dad sues or not, not mine.

10 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

You're not still bitter about their triumph over Buffelia, are you?

No, I'm not. In fact, I'm glad they won. Neither Cordy nor Buffy needed another boost to their galaxy-sized egos.

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I mentioned Mitch!

Whoops!  So you did.  (I wonder if Marcie caused this type of post-invisibility?)

Did Vamp!Sheila fight for the Mayor, or did she just blow town when Spike and Dru got the organ dropped on them in WML2?

Asian Dan was one of the bowmen, IIRC.

Spoiler

 We see him attending the Cultural Center opening in Pangs, so he made it through.

[Halting Hex]

Holy…

I took another look at TPN's video about the horrible "remaster" and I can't believe I missed this before:  what I thought was merely a clip on the colors being too bright is actually showing us that they got rid of the eclipse in this episode!  Wilkins stops talking, everyone looks upwards (Wilkins, Buffy, Willow, random students) and the sky doesn't darken.

How do you manage to screw up that badly?  Insane.  I mean, it's almost amusing.  Almost.

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I took another look at TPN's video about the horrible "remaster" and I can't believe I missed this before:  what I thought was merely a clip on the colors being too bright is actually showing us that they got rid of the eclipse in this episode!  Wilkins stops talking, everyone looks upwards (Wilkins, Buffy, Willow, random students) and the sky doesn't darken.

I guess that means Angel turned to dust and the SHS army was firing flaming arrows at ... other dust bunnies.

[Halting Hex]

Which would mean that Harmony gets bitten by…nothing.

Rather appropriate, IMO.

[lembergwatcher]

I wonder who was/was intended to be the SHS Class of 99's valedictorian?

Should have been Willow IMO, but they've never mentioned anything related to it AFAIK.

Or it could've been Cordelia. Not Buffy though, because, well, obviously...

[Halting Hex]

True, you'd think Willow would have ranked high enough academically to at least merit a spot on the podium.  It's only been six episodes since Snyder was praising her "unblemished academic record".

I blame the Slayer.  "Buffy just makes trouble", to quote Malcolm/Moloch.  All these distractions, costing Willow her honors…and, okay, saving her from being snake chow.  But still.

[Halting Hex]

So Seth Green joins the "You Hit the Wrong Part of That Line, Bro" club:

Quote

WILLOW: [Angel] thought I was Buffy.

OZ: You too, huh?

Obviously, the key word there is the "too", but SG seems to put more emphasis (to whatever degree he employs such) on the "you".  FAIL.

I mean, lots of people do this sort of thing (never forget Aly's own "hi-jinks" from  Prophecy Girl), but still.  I'll keep noting them.

********************************************************

Quote

Angel decides that right before the big battle is a really great time to tell Buffy he's going to blow town and not even say goodbye.

ALLEY BOX:  Dude!  Why you gotta be such a jerk?

ME:  Er…you have met Angel, right?

I mean, to quote Xander (about Angel, ironically), "Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly."  And so it goes.

********************************************************

Alley is really pretty much over Buffy/Angel at this point (her face during the "drinking" scene was frozen horror, while I wondered why it took so long for people to realize that Whedon's a perv), but I'm thinking she's a bit harsh on Angel at the very end, chiding him for being "dramatic" while he and Buffy spend a considerable amount of time just staring at each other across the distance.

I mean, Buffy's got legs; I've seen her move them.  Would it have hurt Ms. Slayer to head over to Angel, tell him, "I'm glad you're all right"?

(Yes, she already knew Angel had survived the battle, since Xander told her.  But as it's fairly unlikely that Angel actually gave Xander a "hey, buddy, say hi to Buffy for me, okay?" message, Angel doesn't know that Buffy knows this.) 

You want to talk to Forehead, go talk to him.  Otherwise it's a bit of an unearned sulk, I'm thinking.

***************************************************

So is putting Larry, the gay character, in charge of a "flame unit" stereotyping?  Is killing him homophobia?

Okay, probably not.  I just needed an ending.  Peace out, Lar.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Quote

OZ:  We survived. [snip]. Not the battle…high school.

Uh, yeah, Fur-Face.  You could have already been long gone, if you'd bothered to graduate last year.  Or take that GED exam that your genius brain could probably knock off on a lunch break.

The only reason you're still here is because you chose to hang around for an entire extra year, just to go Stalker-Boy on your underage girlfriend.  (Whom apparently you plucked before the clock struck 18, in the end.). Not really the best messenger for Whedon's Authorial Message, I'm thinking.

Besides, how burdensome does Oz find high school, anyway?  He's too smart to be challenged by the work, he has a "cool" image and moves easily between social groups, and apparently Snyder is always letting him skip class to attend band trips and the like.  (Most recently during Consequences.). That line more properly belongs to somebody already on the record as considering school to be an ordeal.

Such as Xander, but because Xander actually spends time fighting evil (in Seasons 1-2, anyhow), he might actually know that there'a a bit of a difference between "fighting for your life" and "omg high school".  I know Whedon wanted one last go at his "High School is Hell" metaphor, but I'm thinking this might have been left subtextual.

Quote

BUFFY:  So that's it?  School's out, forever?
WILLOW:  Yeah.  You know, looking back on it, I'm thinking maybe high school wasn't as bad as we all thought it might be.
XANDER:  Except for the Mouth of Hell being right under the Library and all the monsters being drawn to it.
WILLOW:  Well, yeah.  But I'm trying to be positive, you know?

BUFFY:  That's my Willow.  Glass one-thirty-secondth full, check.

Willow smiles shyly.  They walk off.

END OF SEASON 3

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Since Oz is a "taciturn man" (as his girlfriend once declared), he has to say more lines time and again, you know. Otherwise the audience will start to suspect Wolfboy either doesn't care or he's just a piece of furniture. Joss has to remind everyone over and over and over again how smart and cool Oz is and how Willow was right all along for choosing him over Xander...  

[mmecorday]

Sunnydale High Class of 1999's battle royale with Mayor McSnake will always be one of my favorite things that has ever happened on this show. So the mayor was only impervious in human form? Personally I would have stuck with being a human. Snakes have to travel close to the ground where all those nasty germs live.

[lembergwatcher]

The battle was really epic. Although the idea of ordinary high school students with no superpowers and zero previous experience in the field fighting supernatural beings ten times stronger than your average teen, seems a little bit insane to me.

[Halting Hex]

To paraphrase The Doors, "they've got the [powers], but we've got the numbers."  It was a very impressive snake, yes.  But it only took one boom to bring him down.

As for the rest, superior strength has been an issue since amphibians crawled out of the ocean.  Hence the concept of "weapons".  Give Cordelia a sharp piece of wood and an idea of where to aim it, and all the Mayor's recruitment of the local evil undead means is more dust to clean up.  Give it up for toolmaking, yo!

[lembergwatcher]

On 11/5/2022 at 12:41 AM, Halting Hex said:

Hence the concept of "weapons".  Give Cordelia a sharp piece of wood and an idea of where to aim it, and all the Mayor's recruitment of the local evil undead means is more dust to clean up.

Right. But it takes time to become proficient with things like weapons. And the vast majority of Class '99 didn't have enough time. You can give Cordelia sharp piece of wood, but she also has to be skillfull enough to use that thing right the first time and be strong/agile enough to not become the vamp snack herself. Vampire is not gonna stand there just waiting for Cordy to put the stake in his heart.

[Halting Hex]

On 7/21/2018 at 4:51 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Willow loses her virginity to Oz, it's all so sweet.

Nuh-huh, that was last episode.  The van-sex is an encore engagement.

Perhaps not the most romantic, but given that Willow's best buds had been hit with "No, really, I thought you were a pro" and "That was great. I gotta shower" by this point in their post-virginity journeys, I think Will's pretty much lapping the field here.

***********************

Although the Mayor comes up short in his quest for…whatever he was trying to accomplish (Joss never really specifies), he does reinforce one of the precepts from Peter Anspach's Evil Overlord List

Quote

34.  I will not turn into a snake.  It never helps.

Too true, mate.