Joe Hellandback July 11, 2018 Share July 11, 2018 The Zeppo The Good; All of it, pure genius and a chance for Nic Brendon to shine like a beacon. Shakespeare fan Joss giving his own version of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead (as did Babylon 5). The Bad; Not much, the zombie makeup could be a bit better but that's about all. Buffy's hair looks like it's been through the machine that makes crinkly chips. Surely Jack's bomb is not sophisticated enough to be boobytrapped, why doesn't Xander just yank the wires out? Like Spike in Lover's Walk and the swimteam in Go Fish isn't it a bit irresponsible to just let O'Toole go at the end? Best line; Willow; "Occasionally I'm callous and strange" Spoiler (as we'll find out in Seeing Red) or O'Toole (threatening Xander with his knife) "Are you sacred?" Xander (desperate) "Would that make you happy?" But the winner is; Xander (wondering why Oz is cool) "Is it the way you express yourself in short, non-committal sentences?" Oz; "Do I?" also good is Xander's "I like the quiet", he's prepared to die to save his friends. Character death; The Magic Box has a new owner but not for long. Shot; Various members of the undead gang when they were alive plus Oz twice by Willow Tied up; nope unless Faith and Xander indulged in some during the heat of passion Knocked out; Angel according to the dialogue plus werewolf Oz Women good/men bad; Actually a sisterhood of female demons this time around. Jeez!; Decapitation by letterbox, death by soda machine Kinky dinky; Faith shamelessly uses Xander for her own pleasure then chucks him out the door afterwards. Not that he's complaining! (and I'm sure millions of guys and not a few girls would agree). Xander seems to imply that he's never had sex before. We don't exactly know how old he or Faith are so it could be statutory rape, like Buffy/Angel (the legal age is 18 in California). Faith does this after the pain of Xander resetting her shoulder, linking pain, violence and pleasure Spoiler (in Get It Done we discover why Slayers have this dark sexual side). Buffy seems to imply that Xander's car is a penis metaphor, love how her mind works. Xander's girl is lovely although Cordy's opinion of her is probably correct. Willow dreams of being naked, attacked by demons and late for a test. Calling Captain Subtext; Xander is quick to point out to the cop that although he and Jack are wrestling it's 'Not in a gay way'. Check out page 17 of the Sunnydale High Yearbook for a very interesting picture of a grinning Willow from this episode posed with an adoring SDH cheerleader on each arm. Some of the dialogue about making Xander 'part of the gang' has a distinct Carry-On feel about it. Guantanamo Bay; Xander interrogates the zombie-gang by dragging one behind a car and threatening another with a bomb. Buffy goes to beat up Willy but finds someone has beaten her to it. Scoobies to the ER; Giles this time with a banged up arm and head wound. Spoiler Where's Dawn? Presumably Buffy got Dawn and Joyce out of town as she did in Graduation Day pt2 Questions and observations; The title comes from one of the lesser known Marx brothers. I suppose they could also have called it 'The Ringo'? (they do refer to Yoko later). Raising the dead appears to depend on the alignment of the stars as we later see in Spoiler Bargaining although the magic is obviously different as Buffy is alive whilst Bob and co are zombies. Xander and Cordy still have a rapport despite them having fallen out. Cordy mocks Xander for his lack of superpowers but one day Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler she will have her own in spades. The seeds of the season 7 ep Potential are sown here. The scene between Oz and Xander is wonderful, they have obviously made up although what would Oz have thought of Will telling Xander she loved him outside the Magic Box? Giles and Buffy both like jelly doughnuts. Amazingly the SDPD make themselves useful, rescuing Xander at the Bronze. Sunnydale obviously has its' share of criminal gangs in addition to all the evil. Spoiler Spoiler This is the last comedy ep before we start the evil-Faith storyline where things get a lot more serious. Uncle Rory is mentioned again. Thankfully Oz still can't remember stuff he does as a werewolf but that'll change by season 4. Interestingly in this ep Angel is referred to as a the 'key' to opening the Hellmouth just as his blood awakened Acathla. The series is confident enough to make fun of it's own clichés but the more serious point is that the Buffy/Angel relationship has not much room left to go. Xander uses the SDH soda machine to kill one of the gang, is this why it always gives the wrong drink from then on? He's pretty handy with the axe but then he wanted to be a fireman. 10/10, one of the best eps for a series at it's peak. Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe July 11, 2018 Share July 11, 2018 The Bad: the stupid premise that the viewers are supposed to be shocked that Xander can actually save the day. The way his friends treat Xander (fray-adjacent, really?), so that this "shock" will be more, well, shocking. A sign of things to come, with the plot necessities bulldozing over established characterization. 1 3 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback July 11, 2018 Author Share July 11, 2018 10 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said: The Bad: the stupid premise that the viewers are supposed to be shocked that Xander can actually save the day. The way his friends treat Xander (fray-adjacent, really?), so that this "shock" will be more, well, shocking. A sign of things to come, with the plot necessities bulldozing over established characterization. I don't get that, I think Xander is and will be overshadowed by the others, especially as time goes on. But his role is not to save the day, we just like to remind ourselves once in a while that he is a true hero. Just think of the final scene in Spoiler Potential and you can only think back to this ep and smile. Apparently NB was so happy when he read the script he actually cried. Link to comment
Dee July 12, 2018 Share July 12, 2018 Xander was always a true hero, at least as much as the rest of the Scoobies. This episode has always felt like a direct response to the incessant fandom drama surrounding the character post-Season 2 imo. 1 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex July 12, 2018 Share July 12, 2018 16 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Shakespeare fan Joss giving his own version of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead (as did Babylon 5). So Xander's a glorified walk-on now? Grrrreat. (And it was Tom Stoppard, not Shakespeare, who wrote Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead; the idea being that these two subvillains were such non-entities that the Bard has their deaths reported off-stage, after the climactic action. [Probably a late revision, after early rehearsals].) Again, not a thrilling comparison, IMO. 16 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Like Spike in Lover's Walk and the swimteam in Go Fish isn't it a bit irresponsible to just let O'Toole go at the end? Well, it would be…but of course Dan Vebber read the script and knows that O'Toole is about to get eaten, so he doesn't worry about that. Basic hack writing. And why does O'Toole walk into the room where a slavering Oz-Wolf is waiting, instead of, I dunno, going back up the way he came? So Vebber can get his "climax", of course. And if Oz was ravenously hungry and ready to pounce, you'd think we'd hear him during the "I like the quiet" scene, wouldn't you? Particularly given that the whole reason Oz was moved out of the Library was that he was making too much noise for the Useful Characters (sorry, Xan!) to concentrate. But see above re: hack writing. 16 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: We don't exactly know how old he or Faith are so it could be statutory rape, like Buffy/Angel (the legal age is 18 in California). Xander is 18; he was 17 in Innocence when Buffy was just having her birthday, so his comes before hers, and she turned 18 last episode. He's "16 and a half" in Reptile Boy, which is early October, so his birthday is probably somewhere around Christmas or New Year's. (And man, if he's a Christmas baby, his having to sleep outside then, as in Amends, must really suck.) Faith is a complete guess; Buffy refers to her as a "little sister" in Faith, Hope and Trick, but that could just be metaphorical. Spoiler And Faith says Buffy is "dressed up in big sister's clothes" in Graduation Day, Part 1. Although I'd like to think that if Faith had already been through the Cruciamentum, she'd have told the Buffster. Even if Faith is 16 or 17 (she's been to high school and dropped out, so she was there last year, which means 15 is off the table), Xander's still safe, though. California has a "Romeo and Juliet" exception, where it's only a violation to have sex with the underaged, assuming you're no more than three years older than them. 240-year-old Angel popping ripe and fresh 17-year-old Buffy is still a big no, though. 17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: Calling Captain Subtext Yes, yes, Buffy saying "I need my Willow" is meant as a parody of such B/W scenes, I get it. We'll still take it, though. :) 17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: what would Oz have thought of Will telling Xander she loved him outside the Magic Box? What did Willow think of it? What did Xander? It's another case of Season 3 raising an issue and not addressing it; one of the season's great flaws. It's particularly annoying considering that Xander is having sex with Faith within the hour, whereas Spoiler Willow will have a near breakdown when she gets that news, in Consequences. And meantime, she never says "I love you" to Oz, the entire series. Meanwhile, we're supposed to be laughing at Xander interrupting Buffy and Angel having a Serious Discussion (complete with cutting off their Intense Music)…but Joss was just asking us to take this fanfic crap with a straight face in Amends, only three episodes ago. Vebber himself worked the Bangel angst (Bangst?) into the climax of his own Lovers Walk, just before that. You can't have it both ways, guys: either Buffy and Angel are The Tortured Love of the Ages, or they're a big joke and should get over themselves. But this is Vebber trying to be all ironic about the same stuff he himself was pushing, a bare two months back. Pass. And of course, the episode's treatment of Xander himself is the same sort of "have it both ways" garbage. Oh, Xander is an important part of the Scoobies! Except he's a "fray-adjacent" joke! Except he's "secretly cool"! Except that this episode just plain sucks. Accept it. ("Forced regression for false progress", it's called. Ironically enough, it's not only happening to Xander here, but also to Spoiler Cordelia, who gets to be a shallow bitch/scratching post, just so she can re-do all her previous growth on Angel Season 1, all over again. Yes, ever so much better than developing the characters from where they already were. Except not.) 1 2 Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe July 12, 2018 Share July 12, 2018 10 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said: But his role is not to save the day, we just like to remind ourselves once in a while that he is a true hero. His role isn't to save the day in every episode, yes, but he has done it many times nevertheless, hence the premise of the episode is nonsense. He isn't useless when it comes to research, either, if anything Buffy was the one sent to buy food in What's My Line but now all that is forgotten and Xander is only good for buying donuts. Plus, it's an apocalyptic threat, all hands on deck should be the order of the day. At that point he had been vastly more useful in combat than Willow and quite often more useful than Giles as well (In Dead Man's Party it's "Nighthawk" Xander who leads the vampire slaying efforts, for example). As for Spoiler Potential, things become even worse then, since Xander apparently thinks that Oz's lycanthropy made him more useful than Xander ever was, even though it ruined Oz's life, was useful exactly once and by complete accident, and if there ever was a Scooby who fit the definition of fray-adjacent it was Oz. But even so, Xander did help in The Gift, Chosen and Primeval, so the idea that he needs to stay safe and wait for his friends to do the job when things get tough isn't supported by the text even in seasons where he is mostly a glorified wallpaper. 1 2 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback July 12, 2018 Author Share July 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Halting Hex said: So Xander's a glorified walk-on now? Grrrreat. (And it was Tom Stoppard, not Shakespeare, who wrote Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead; the idea being that these two subvillains were such non-entities that the Bard has their deaths reported off-stage, after the climactic action. [Probably a late revision, after early rehearsals].) Again, not a thrilling comparison, IMO. Well, it would be…but of course Dan Vebber read the script and knows that O'Toole is about to get eaten, so he doesn't worry about that. Basic hack writing. And why does O'Toole walk into the room where a slavering Oz-Wolf is waiting, instead of, I dunno, going back up the way he came? So Vebber can get his "climax", of course. And if Oz was ravenously hungry and ready to pounce, you'd think we'd hear him during the "I like the quiet" scene, wouldn't you? Particularly given that the whole reason Oz was moved out of the Library was that he was making too much noise for the Useful Characters (sorry, Xan!) to concentrate. But see above re: hack writing. Xander is 18; he was 17 in Innocence when Buffy was just having her birthday, so his comes before hers, and she turned 18 last episode. He's "16 and a half" in Reptile Boy, which is early October, so his birthday is probably somewhere around Christmas or New Year's. (And man, if he's a Christmas baby, his having to sleep outside then, as in Amends, must really suck.) Faith is a complete guess; Buffy refers to her as a "little sister" in Faith, Hope and Trick, but that could just be metaphorical. Hide contents And Faith says Buffy is "dressed up in big sister's clothes" in Graduation Day, Part 1. Although I'd like to think that if Faith had already been through the Cruciamentum, she'd have told the Buffster. Even if Faith is 16 or 17 (she's been to high school and dropped out, so she was there last year, which means 15 is off the table), Xander's still safe, though. California has a "Romeo and Juliet" exception, where it's only a violation to have sex with the underaged, assuming you're no more than three years older than them. 240-year-old Angel popping ripe and fresh 17-year-old Buffy is still a big no, though. Yes, yes, Buffy saying "I need my Willow" is meant as a parody of such B/W scenes, I get it. We'll still take it, though. :) What did Willow think of it? What did Xander? It's another case of Season 3 raising an issue and not addressing it; one of the season's great flaws. It's particularly annoying considering that Xander is having sex with Faith within the hour, whereas Hide contents Willow will have a near breakdown when she gets that news, in Consequences. And meantime, she never says "I love you" to Oz, the entire series. Meanwhile, we're supposed to be laughing at Xander interrupting Buffy and Angel having a Serious Discussion (complete with cutting off their Intense Music)…but Joss was just asking us to take this fanfic crap with a straight face in Amends, only three episodes ago. Vebber himself worked the Bangel angst (Bangst?) into the climax of his own Lovers Walk, just before that. You can't have it both ways, guys: either Buffy and Angel are The Tortured Love of the Ages, or they're a big joke and should get over themselves. But this is Vebber trying to be all ironic about the same stuff he himself was pushing, a bare two months back. Pass. And of course, the episode's treatment of Xander himself is the same sort of "have it both ways" garbage. Oh, Xander is an important part of the Scoobies! Except he's a "fray-adjacent" joke! Except he's "secretly cool"! Except that this episode just plain sucks. Accept it. ("Forced regression for false progress", it's called. Ironically enough, it's not only happening to Xander here, but also to Hide contents Cordelia, who gets to be a shallow bitch/scratching post, just so she can re-do all her previous growth on Angel Season 1, all over again. Yes, ever so much better than developing the characters from where they already were. Except not.) Wow! No, I love this ep, I love Xander and I love Nic and I cheer for the everyman amongst the super-powerful because we can identify with him and every dog has his day. We also have the premise extended to form Agents of Shield, this was its' inspiration. Yes Tom Stoppard wrote R&G but with characters created by The Bard. Fan theory is that Faith's Watcher was killed during her Cruciantenam but no, I agree with your logic. As for CC you don't blame her for being sore at Xander and reverting to type but even then she still shows her signs of growth we see in Helpless. The Bangelers dream worked well for Amends but this ep shows that they're realising it's becoming cliched, Angel; TS already on the horizon. The Oz joke is a little contrived but I love it, possibly he was still recovering from the tranquilisers. And the whole series is an ephebophile's dream frankly, Bangel is also technically necrophilia. 27 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said: His role isn't to save the day in every episode, yes, but he has done it many times nevertheless, hence the premise of the episode is nonsense. He isn't useless when it comes to research, either, if anything Buffy was the one sent to buy food in What's My Line but now all that is forgotten and Xander is only good for buying donuts. Plus, it's an apocalyptic threat, all hands on deck should be the order of the day. At that point he had been vastly more useful in combat than Willow and quite often more useful than Giles as well (In Dead Man's Party it's "Nighthawk" Xander who leads the vampire slaying efforts, for example). As for Hide contents Potential, things become even worse then, since Xander apparently thinks that Oz's lycanthropy made him more useful than Xander ever was, even though it ruined Oz's life, was useful exactly once and by complete accident, and if there ever was a Scooby who fit the definition of fray-adjacent it was Oz. But even so, Xander did help in The Gift, Chosen and Primeval, so the idea that he needs to stay safe and wait for his friends to do the job when things get tough isn't supported by the text even in seasons where he is mostly a glorified wallpaper. I agree to an extent but it did still make Oz 'special' and we see that Oz actually does retain some werewolf attributes as human which come in useful in 'Lover's Walk' for instance. Link to comment
Halting Hex July 12, 2018 Share July 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said: I cheer for the everyman amongst the super-powerful I don't want Xander to be "the everyman amongst the super-powerful"; I want this to be a group of friends who help Buffy, who is One Girl in All the World. She, being the title character and all, should be the only one whose super powers set her above humanity. Angel's a vampire? Double-edged sword as we spent last year finding out Spoiler , and one which will be pushing him out the door soon enough. Indeed, had the original plans for Angel to be a mid-season series (announced at the upfronts the summer before) stayed in place, Broody Boy would already be gone, presumably having left the series after Amends. Same thing for Oz's lycanthropy; as you yourself note, this makes Oz less useful, not more. (Barring such idiocy as the SuperNose in Lovers Walk, of course.) Faith is also a Slayer? Yeah, that's a glitch; it was a once-off, it could have and arguably should have corrected itself once Kendra got killed. (The whole concept of a predetermined "Slayer line" didn't exist before Faith's hot ass came to town; between S2/S3, many people argued that Kendra had been called because during those few minutes while Buffy was taking her nap in Prophecy Girl, there was no Slayer in the world, and thus Kendra was Chosen to be the Chosen One. But when Kendra hit the Library floor, there was still a Slayer [racing down the corridor outside, as it happened] and thus there was no need to replace the replacement.) I mean, I love Faith, but the character isn't a dramatic necessity, and arguably damages the series's basic concept. Giles and Willow can cast spells? Yeah, that's called reading. I'm pretty certain Xander knows how to read. And they also do research. Which is, again, reading. Give me back the Slayer and her support team. Get rid of this JLA/Avengers crap, with Xander reduced to playing Snapper Carr or Rick Jones or whoever. (Even Rick got to be a superhero for a while, when he and Captain Marvel each had a Nega-Band.) Xander's being a normal human being is something that should be appreciated, not mocked and derided and treated as being inferior, and only used as the basis of a parody episode, ffs. Spoiler Really, isn't this basically the same thing as Loandbehold's much-be-loathed Superstar? "Wow, wouldn't it be wild if there was an episode where Xander was actually important? (It's like an) Alternate universe, dude! Mind blown!" Xander ain't no fucking Jonathan, I'm just saying. Or at least, he shouldn't be. 1 3 Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe July 12, 2018 Share July 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: I don't want Xander to be "the everyman amongst the super-powerful"; I want this to be a group of friends who help Buffy, who is One Girl in All the World. She, being the title character and all, should be the only one whose super powers set her above humanity. Yes, give me Willow the lovable genius who helps by coming up with smart plans and the occasional spell (which requires lengthy preparation and research, rather than just pointing a finger) any day rather than Spoiler "I suck at Latin but have super-awesome innate magical talent and my entire life revolves around magic" Willow of the latter seasons. 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex July 13, 2018 Share July 13, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 2:09 AM, Joe Hellandback said: Xander uses the SHS soda machine to kill one of the gang, is this why it always gives the wrong drink from then on? I'm pretty sure that the Diet Dr. Pepper that Buffy gets from the machine when she slams Larry up against it in Halloween isn't one of the choices, either, so the soda machine issue goes back before this episode. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback July 13, 2018 Author Share July 13, 2018 On 12/07/2018 at 11:18 AM, Halting Hex said: I don't want Xander to be "the everyman amongst the super-powerful"; I want this to be a group of friends who help Buffy, who is One Girl in All the World. She, being the title character and all, should be the only one whose super powers set her above humanity. Angel's a vampire? Double-edged sword as we spent last year finding out Hide contents , and one which will be pushing him out the door soon enough. Indeed, had the original plans for Angel to be a mid-season series (announced at the upfronts the summer before) stayed in place, Broody Boy would already be gone, presumably having left the series after Amends. Same thing for Oz's lycanthropy; as you yourself note, this makes Oz less useful, not more. (Barring such idiocy as the SuperNose in Lovers Walk, of course.) Faith is also a Slayer? Yeah, that's a glitch; it was a once-off, it could have and arguably should have corrected itself once Kendra got killed. (The whole concept of a predetermined "Slayer line" didn't exist before Faith's hot ass came to town; between S2/S3, many people argued that Kendra had been called because during those few minutes while Buffy was taking her nap in Prophecy Girl, there was no Slayer in the world, and thus Kendra was Chosen to be the Chosen One. But when Kendra hit the Library floor, there was still a Slayer [racing down the corridor outside, as it happened] and thus there was no need to replace the replacement.) I mean, I love Faith, but the character isn't a dramatic necessity, and arguably damages the series's basic concept. Giles and Willow can cast spells? Yeah, that's called reading. I'm pretty certain Xander knows how to read. And they also do research. Which is, again, reading. Give me back the Slayer and her support team. Get rid of this JLA/Avengers crap, with Xander reduced to playing Snapper Carr or Rick Jones or whoever. (Even Rick got to be a superhero for a while, when he and Captain Marvel each had a Nega-Band.) Xander's being a normal human being is something that should be appreciated, not mocked and derided and treated as being inferior, and only used as the basis of a parody episode, ffs. Hide contents Really, isn't this basically the same thing as Loandbehold's much-be-loathed Superstar? "Wow, wouldn't it be wild if there was an episode where Xander was actually important? (It's like an) Alternate universe, dude! Mind blown!" Xander ain't no fucking Jonathan, I'm just saying. Or at least, he shouldn't be. Remember it took Giles a lifetime to become a watcher with all the training and resources of the Council. As for Will I put it down to the Hellmouth Genius effect which seems to have passed Xander by. Speaking of whom it's very different from Spoiler Superstar, Jonathon has made himself a paragon, the best of all things Xander is the everyman. Why we love him. Link to comment
Loandbehold July 14, 2018 Share July 14, 2018 The Zeppo works for me if I think almost the entire story is told from Xander's perspective. He suffers from extremely low self-esteem. So, I can see him getting pummeled by the Sisterhood of Zhe and actually being told that he shouldn't be the first to throw himself at demons w/ supernatural strength when there are two slayers, a Watcher trained w/ weapons, and a budding witch. But, he hears it as that he should be "fray-adjacent." He doesn't think he's smart, so he volunteers to make the donut run instead of helping w/ research. He approaches Giles at the cemetery and is told that Giles has to concentrate on doing a spell, but hears it as he's just getting in the way. Once I accept that (and I realize that's not in the text), I can enjoy the episode. Xander does end up saving the day even if he's not involved in stopping the apocalypse. We get to see him walk in on the over-wrought Buffy and Angel scene complete w/ over-the-top melodramatic music. There are plenty of funny and even laugh out loud moments. 1 1 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback July 16, 2018 Author Share July 16, 2018 On 14/07/2018 at 6:11 PM, Loandbehold said: The Zeppo works for me if I think almost the entire story is told from Xander's perspective. He suffers from extremely low self-esteem. So, I can see him getting pummeled by the Sisterhood of Zhe and actually being told that he shouldn't be the first to throw himself at demons w/ supernatural strength when there are two slayers, a Watcher trained w/ weapons, and a budding witch. But, he hears it as that he should be "fray-adjacent." He doesn't think he's smart, so he volunteers to make the donut run instead of helping w/ research. He approaches Giles at the cemetery and is told that Giles has to concentrate on doing a spell, but hears it as he's just getting in the way. Once I accept that (and I realize that's not in the text), I can enjoy the episode. Xander does end up saving the day even if he's not involved in stopping the apocalypse. We get to see him walk in on the over-wrought Buffy and Angel scene complete w/ over-the-top melodramatic music. There are plenty of funny and even laugh out loud moments. Absolutely, Xander is the triumph of the everyman. The whole idea is that no one is useless and everyone has their part to play in all this. Link to comment
SosaLola August 8, 2018 Share August 8, 2018 I'm probably the only one who loves this episode. The Zeppo is the definition of meta. It makes fun of the usual dramatic incidences in BtVS that the audience has already embraced by intensifying them and turning them into farce ( The hellmouth opening again, Buffy’s “Faith, point to the heart!”, Buffy/Angel angst and so on) by changing the show’s perspective and narrative from Buffy to the person who hasn’t been touched by the dark – the Everyman. How does the Everyman react to abnormal things? What are his/her struggles? In what way does the Everyman contribute in saving the world? People remember and read about leaders, kings, queens, superstars, but rarely do they read about “themselves.” The Zeppo is about the forgotten ones: the bitter soldiers, who come back from war unrewarded, the unappreciated housewives, the unappreciated working class…. etc. It pulls the curtain back to shed light on the neglected and let us realize that without the soldiers, the general couldn’t have won. Without the housewife, the house would have crumbled down on the husband and the kids. And without Xander Harris, the school would have exploded and the Scoobies would have ended up killed. There’s no doubt that an apocalypse is a much bigger threat than a few zombies wanting to bomb the school, yet we get a switch in which the character-development B plot is the center and the action-packed A plot gets pushed to the background. Xander gets his moment to shine the same way Shakespeare’s Flastaff did in Henry IV Part 2. This is not the first time where the viewpoint changes from Buffy to someone else. I’d like to think that Passions was written from Angel’s perspective. This time, however, the viewpoint is so askew considering that it’s Xander’s perception of everything.Xander Harris: Fray-Adjacent: There’s no doubt that Xander’s position in the group has dropped way down from his Night Hawk days. His friends are growing more powerful, Buffy is much stronger now, Faith is also another strong Slayer, even Willow, who used to be in the same league as Xander, is now practicing magic. Everyone is moving forward and getting better physically, but Xander hasn’t changed one bit. Emotionally though, Xander is more insecure about his place in the group. He and Buffy aren’t as close after the whole Angel drama (it’s telling that Buffy asks Willow for help and tells her that she needs her right before Xander shows up with his car, but when Xander offers to help himself, she sends him away). Xander and Willow are also not as close after the Oz drama, he and Giles were never close, Cordelia hates him, and he doesn’t really know Faith that well. But then there’s Oz, the only person Xander was comfortable enough to talk to about his insecurities. The only person Xander saw as an equal – Spoiler and that’s backed up by his speech to Dawn in S7. It’s worth noting that Giles does include Willow with Xander when he said, “I should never have allowed Willow and [Xander]” to tag along in this fight against the new and “improved” creatures. Giles also instructs Willow to stay back for her safety so he can finish the spell by himself later in the episode. So, it’s not just about seeing Xander as the only feeble and fragile loser. He and Willow are both still considered feeble and fragile; however, Willow has the good sense of knowing her limits and staying out harm’s way when necessary. Xander, on the other hand, “leaps at the fray” with no regards to his safety or abilities. And that what scares his friends, they don’t mind having him around to help, they’re just scared he’s gonna do something foolish and get himself killed. That’s why I don’t see their giving Xander the shaft in this episode as OOC. The football thing in the beginning of the episode is another example of Xander “leaping” at anything out of his league. The jocks obviously aren’t interested in playing with him, but when they do give him a chance he screws things up. Seems to be a pattern in Xander’s life; Cordelia trusted him and he broke her heart, Anya trusted him and he broke her heart. More Xander put downs by Jack and Cordelia come afterwards. Then when Xander comes over with the car, all confident and proud, Buffy sends him for donuts. Apparently, he’s been sent to get donuts before judging by Cordelia’s correct guess about evil happening now that Xander is at the donut shop.“Can I help? Xander offers his services to each member of the Scoobies and gets rejected. "Xander’s out of this. He nearly got himself killed last time we fought. The whole thing will be easier if we know he’s safe.” Buffy. “It’s best you stay out of harm’s way.” Angel. “Oh, no. Thank you. Uh, probably best if you, you stay out of trouble.” Giles. “I can’t stay. Buffy needs this. I love you, Xander.” Willow. While good intentioned, none of them knew that by excluding Xander, they’re hitting him where it really hurts – his place in the group. The Scoobies are the only best thing he has in his life. They’re his real family and by rejecting him, he’s got no one. And to make matters worse, Willow tells him in the end of the episode, “Xander, you’re lucky you weren’t at school last night. It was crazed.” That must have stung!!! Not including Xander is far worse than anything in the world, even death. Willow should have known better, especially since she told Buffy earlier, “I’d be offended if you haven’t already counted me in!” Sex and Romance: The Zeppo shows clearly where Xander stands on the issue. Though he talks about sex a lot and have pretended to be sexually experienced before, he clearly wants more than sex from a girl. He wants connection. Car Girl is hot, but she’s so boring! He’d rather spend time with Angel over a hot girl because there was no spark. And not only was losing his virginity to Faith unexpected, but it was also rushed! Spoiler “Like a blur,” Xander in Consequences. There was no cuddling, no pillow talks; he seemed too dazed and confused when she kicked him out. Yet, despite it being so obvious she was using him as a boytoy, he believed they actually had a connection. He doesn’t consider sex to be a mere physical thing, it’s greater than that. He’d like to get to know someone before jumping into sex, something that usually women are into, but Xander isn’t your typical kind of man as Lorna Jowett, senior lecturer at University College Northampton, describes Xander as a “new man” because he can’t be a real man. He’s the man whose hero is a female leader, who willingly elected a female to be his leader, and who would like to get to know a girl before sleeping with her. That’s why he and Cordelia never had sex, he was either waiting for the right moment or saving himself for someone else. Spoiler “It’s just we hardly know each other.” “But sexual interc—what you’re talking about, well—and I’m actually turning into a woman as I say this, but it’s about expressing something.” “Still more romantic than Faith.” Xander in Harsh Light of Day. “Anya, there’s a lot more to you and me than the sex. Well, there should be! I mean, a relationship is something that you work at. Work through. Together.” Xander in Where the Wild Things Are. The Hammer is His Mouth: “I’ve done some quality violence for those people. Do they even think about that?” No, actually. What Xander excels in isn’t violence. He’s very good with his words – he can hurt any person he wants so easily by using his words, he can lift people up with his words, heck he can save the world with his words. And that’s what he does to save the school. Xander was never more confident and cool than when he talked Jack into stopping the bomb. The way he reasoned with him, giving him the odds about trying to run away, showing him the difference between being a walking corpse and pieces of bits, he was remarkably calm and all together, hiding how much he wanted to pee his pants in the guise of cool. That right there is the “new man” Lorna was talking about, the kind of man who saved the world twice by talking the enemy down, no violence was involved, just the power of convincing. The world would be such a peaceful place if men learned to use their mouths instead of their fists. Producer Fran Rubel Kuzie once said, “You can educate your daughters to be Slayers, but you have to educate your sons to be Xanders.”Little bits about the episode: *Willow’s “callous and strange” comment is adorable. * Cordelia’s role in this episode is literally just to throw digs at Xander. Seeing as it’s Xander’s point of view, that’s probably understandable. *Xander orders one jelly at first, but changes his mind to four jellies. He knows that Giles loves them. Everything about Xander’s adoration of Giles makes my heart ache. *Speaking of Giles, the only thing I wish I had seen in the apocalypse plot was Giles’ brave moment, the bravest thing Buffy’s ever seen! I would have loved to see Giles the hero. *The ending never fails to leave a smile on my lips. Aw Xander! It’s also touching to know that Nicholas Brendon cried reading the script. 1 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback August 8, 2018 Author Share August 8, 2018 7 hours ago, SosaLola said: I'm probably the only one who loves this episode. The Zeppo is the definition of meta. It makes fun of the usual dramatic incidences in BtVS that the audience has already embraced by intensifying them and turning them into farce ( The hellmouth opening again, Buffy’s “Faith, point to the heart!”, Buffy/Angel angst and so on) by changing the show’s perspective and narrative from Buffy to the person who hasn’t been touched by the dark – the Everyman. How does the Everyman react to abnormal things? What are his/her struggles? In what way does the Everyman contribute in saving the world? People remember and read about leaders, kings, queens, superstars, but rarely do they read about “themselves.” The Zeppo is about the forgotten ones: the bitter soldiers, who come back from war unrewarded, the unappreciated housewives, the unappreciated working class…. etc. It pulls the curtain back to shed light on the neglected and let us realize that without the soldiers, the general couldn’t have won. Without the housewife, the house would have crumbled down on the husband and the kids. And without Xander Harris, the school would have exploded and the Scoobies would have ended up killed. There’s no doubt that an apocalypse is a much bigger threat than a few zombies wanting to bomb the school, yet we get a switch in which the character-development B plot is the center and the action-packed A plot gets pushed to the background. Xander gets his moment to shine the same way Shakespeare’s Flastaff did in Henry IV Part 2. This is not the first time where the viewpoint changes from Buffy to someone else. I’d like to think that Passions was written from Angel’s perspective. This time, however, the viewpoint is so askew considering that it’s Xander’s perception of everything.Xander Harris: Fray-Adjacent: There’s no doubt that Xander’s position in the group has dropped way down from his Night Hawk days. His friends are growing more powerful, Buffy is much stronger now, Faith is also another strong Slayer, even Willow, who used to be in the same league as Xander, is now practicing magic. Everyone is moving forward and getting better physically, but Xander hasn’t changed one bit. Emotionally though, Xander is more insecure about his place in the group. He and Buffy aren’t as close after the whole Angel drama (it’s telling that Buffy asks Willow for help and tells her that she needs her right before Xander shows up with his car, but when Xander offers to help himself, she sends him away). Xander and Willow are also not as close after the Oz drama, he and Giles were never close, Cordelia hates him, and he doesn’t really know Faith that well. But then there’s Oz, the only person Xander was comfortable enough to talk to about his insecurities. The only person Xander saw as an equal Spoiler – and that’s backed up by his speech to Dawn in S7. It’s worth noting that Giles does include Willow with Xander when he said, “I should never have allowed Willow and [Xander]” to tag along in this fight against the new and “improved” creatures. Giles also instructs Willow to stay back for her safety so he can finish the spell by himself later in the episode. So, it’s not just about seeing Xander as the only feeble and fragile loser. He and Willow are both still considered feeble and fragile; however, Willow has the good sense of knowing her limits and staying out harm’s way when necessary. Xander, on the other hand, “leaps at the fray” with no regards to his safety or abilities. And that what scares his friends, they don’t mind having him around to help, they’re just scared he’s gonna do something foolish and get himself killed. That’s why I don’t see their giving Xander the shaft in this episode as OOC. The football thing in the beginning of the episode is another example of Xander “leaping” at anything out of his league. The jocks obviously aren’t interested in playing with him, but when they do give him a chance he screws things up. Seems to be a pattern in Xander’s life; Cordelia trusted him and he broke her heart, Anya trusted him and he broke her heart. More Xander put downs by Jack and Cordelia come afterwards. Then when Xander comes over with the car, all confident and proud, Buffy sends him for donuts. Apparently, he’s been sent to get donuts before judging by Cordelia’s correct guess about evil happening now that Xander is at the donut shop.“Can I help? Xander offers his services to each member of the Scoobies and gets rejected. "Xander’s out of this. He nearly got himself killed last time we fought. The whole thing will be easier if we know he’s safe.” Buffy. “It’s best you stay out of harm’s way.” Angel. “Oh, no. Thank you. Uh, probably best if you, you stay out of trouble.” Giles. “I can’t stay. Buffy needs this. I love you, Xander.” Willow. While good intentioned, none of them knew that by excluding Xander, they’re hitting him where it really hurts – his place in the group. The Scoobies are the only best thing he has in his life. They’re his real family and by rejecting him, he’s got no one. And to make matters worse, Willow tells him in the end of the episode, “Xander, you’re lucky you weren’t at school last night. It was crazed.” That must have stung!!! Not including Xander is far worse than anything in the world, even death. Willow should have known better, especially since she told Buffy earlier, “I’d be offended if you haven’t already counted me in!” Sex and Romance: The Zeppo shows clearly where Xander stands on the issue. Though he talks about sex a lot and have pretended to be sexually experienced before, he clearly wants more than sex from a girl. He wants connection. Car Girl is hot, but she’s so boring! He’d rather spend time with Angel over a hot girl because there was no spark. And not only was losing his virginity to Faith unexpected, but it was also rushed! Hide contents “Like a blur,” Xander in Consequences. There was no cuddling, no pillow talks; he seemed too dazed and confused when she kicked him out. Yet, despite it being so obvious she was using him as a boytoy, he believed they actually had a connection. He doesn’t consider sex to be a mere physical thing, it’s greater than that. He’d like to get to know someone before jumping into sex, something that usually women are into, but Xander isn’t your typical kind of man as Lorna Jowett, senior lecturer at University College Northampton, describes Xander as a “new man” because he can’t be a real man. He’s the man whose hero is a female leader, who willingly elected a female to be his leader, and who would like to get to know a girl before sleeping with her. That’s why he and Cordelia never had sex, he was either waiting for the right moment or saving himself for someone else. Hide contents “It’s just we hardly know each other.” “But sexual interc—what you’re talking about, well—and I’m actually turning into a woman as I say this, but it’s about expressing something.” “Still more romantic than Faith.” Xander in Harsh Light of Day. “Anya, there’s a lot more to you and me than the sex. Well, there should be! I mean, a relationship is something that you work at. Work through. Together.” Xander in Where the Wild Things Are. The Hammer is His Mouth: “I’ve done some quality violence for those people. Do they even think about that?” No, actually. What Xander excels in isn’t violence. He’s very good with his words – he can hurt any person he wants so easily by using his words, he can lift people up with his words, heck he can save the world with his words. And that’s what he does to save the school. Xander was never more confident and cool than when he talked Jack into stopping the bomb. The way he reasoned with him, giving him the odds about trying to run away, showing him the difference between being a walking corpse and pieces of bits, he was remarkably calm and all together, hiding how much he wanted to pee his pants in the guise of cool. That right there is the “new man” Lorna was talking about, the kind of man who saved the world twice by talking the enemy down, no violence was involved, just the power of convincing. The world would be such a peaceful place if men learned to use their mouths instead of their fists. Producer Fran Rubel Kuzie once said, “You can educate your daughters to be Slayers, but you have to educate your sons to be Xanders.”Little bits about the episode: *Willow’s “callous and strange” comment is adorable. * Cordelia’s role in this episode is literally just to throw digs at Xander. Seeing as it’s Xander’s point of view, that’s probably understandable. *Xander orders one jelly at first, but changes his mind to four jellies. He knows that Giles loves them. Everything about Xander’s adoration of Giles makes my heart ache. *Speaking of Giles, the only thing I wish I had seen in the apocalypse plot was Giles’ brave moment, the bravest thing Buffy’s ever seen! I would have loved to see Giles the hero. *The ending never fails to leave a smile on my lips. Aw Xander! It’s also touching to know that Nicholas Brendon cried reading the script. Wow and I thought my review was detailed! Although you should avoid mentioning Spoiler Dawnie as she doesn't exist yet. and they're hot on spoilers in ep specific threads around here. 1, To be fair Xander later refers to Oz having a 'wolfie mojo' of his own, his later speech sums it all up beautifully however. 2, According to Faith her sex with Xander lasted a whole 7 minutes. 3. That's a great quote although you have to also factor in Xander lies to Buffy about Angel' soul restoration, cheats on CC with Willow and Spoiler leaves Anya at the altar? 4. In later seasons we see exactly how callous and strange Willow will be. 5. I actually feel for CC here, whereas previously her snarkiness was matter of trying to establish her dominant status in the school world here she does so out of revenge for having opened her heart to him only to have it broken. Frankly it's progress that she interacts with him at all. 6. I'm not sure Xander has an adoration for Giles but it talks of his intimacy with the group that he knows everyone's order. 7. Personally I think it works better that we don't see Giles' heroism, it would detract from Xander's moment of quiet bravery to see it 8. I've recently watched the Supernatural ep 'Fanfiction' and it's an interesting comparison as is Xena's 'You are there' Link to comment
lembergwatcher August 17, 2018 Share August 17, 2018 Watching the first half of that episode, I kept wondering and asking myself: "Is this the same character?? Is this the same Xander, who helped saving the day in Prophecy Girl, threatened to kill the Slayer if his best friend got hurt in When She Was Bad, came up with a plan in Innocence, stood alone against Angelus in Killed by Death, assisted saving Giles despite the hand injury in Becoming, Pt. 2, and took active part in vampire slaying at the beginning of S.03??? Donuts??? "Useless" part of the group??? Really? Someone must be kidding..." On 12.07.2018 at 1:18 PM, Halting Hex said: I don't want Xander to be "the everyman amongst the super-powerful"; I want this to be a group of friends who help Buffy, who is One Girl in All the World. She, being the title character and all, should be the only one whose super powers set her above humanity. Two thumbs up. This IMO is the reason why many people prefer the earlier seasons than the later ones. Good old times when there was a group of friends in which each and every one was important, each did the job and each one contributed to the cause in one way or another. Nothing hurt the concept of Buffy more - at least in my eyes - then the claim that there were more important and less important members of the group, the useful and the useless. I hated the whole message that started to emerge since S.03: being human sucks, the everyman sucks. Unless you are vampire, witch or demon of some kind you are totally inferior to the ones with the super-powers. Along with blatant glorification of someone like Spike (and tolerance for someone like Anya) it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth. Another thing that continues to annoy me to this day is that even in this supposedly Xander-centric or "pro-Xander" episode they had to portray him as irresponsible jerk who couldn't resist the temptation and lost his virginity to someone he barely knew. I don't mind since Xander was, well, single and Faith was quite hot, but judging from the subsequent episodes I have a theory that Whedon & Co needed the whole sexfest affair to make Xander look as a douchebag even despite him saving his friends from being blown to kingdom come. I doubt most fans remember that episode as the one where Xander defeated O'Toole's gang and saved many lives, but rather the one where he slept with Faith thus hurting poor Willow's feeling and reinforcing the belief that Wolfboy was a better choice for the redhead... Link to comment
Dee August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: I hated the whole message that started to emerge since S.03: being human sucks, the everyman sucks. Unless you are vampire, witch or demon of some kind you are totally inferior to the ones with the super-powers. A fact which Anya ironically slams Buffy over later in the series. 1 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback August 18, 2018 Author Share August 18, 2018 7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Watching the first half of that episode, I kept wondering and asking myself: "Is this the same character?? Is this the same Xander, who helped saving the day in Prophecy Girl, threatened to kill the Slayer if his best friend got hurt in When She Was Bad, came up with a plan in Innocence, stood alone against Angelus in Killed by Death, assisted saving Giles despite the hand injury in Becoming, Pt. 2, and took active part in vampire slaying at the beginning of S.03??? Donuts??? "Useless" part of the group??? Really? Someone must be kidding..." Two thumbs up. This IMO is the reason why many people prefer the earlier seasons than the later ones. Good old times when there was a group of friends in which each and every one was important, each did the job and each one contributed to the cause in one way or another. Nothing hurt the concept of Buffy more - at least in my eyes - then the claim that there were more important and less important members of the group, the useful and the useless. I hated the whole message that started to emerge since S.03: being human sucks, the everyman sucks. Unless you are vampire, witch or demon of some kind you are totally inferior to the ones with the super-powers. Along with blatant glorification of someone like Spike (and tolerance for someone like Anya) it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth. Another thing that continues to annoy me to this day is that even in this supposedly Xander-centric or "pro-Xander" episode they had to portray him as irresponsible jerk who couldn't resist the temptation and lost his virginity to someone he barely knew. I don't mind since Xander was, well, single and Faith was quite hot, but judging from the subsequent episodes I have a theory that Whedon & Co needed the whole sexfest affair to make Xander look as a douchebag even despite him saving his friends from being blown to kingdom come. I doubt most fans remember that episode as the one where Xander defeated O'Toole's gang and saved many lives, but rather the one where he slept with Faith thus hurting poor Willow's feeling and reinforcing the belief that Wolfboy was a better choice for the redhead... Let's have some empathy, you're a teenage boy, you're currently unattached and you're offered (in fact virtually forced?) to have sex with stunningly beautiful Slayer Faith? No one in the world would turn her down, Kurt Hummel would go for it. Plus Willow is with Oz so it's not like he's cheating on her? And she's already offered herself to Oz sexually and asked him to make out with her as revenge on Xander? Link to comment
Jack Shaftoe August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: I don't mind since Xander was, well, single and Faith was quite hot, but judging from the subsequent episodes I have a theory that Whedon & Co needed the whole sexfest affair to make Xander look as a douchebag even despite him saving his friends from being blown to kingdom come. I doubt most fans remember that episode as the one where Xander defeated O'Toole's gang and saved many lives, but rather the one where he slept with Faith thus hurting poor Willow's feeling and reinforcing the belief that Wolfboy was a better choice for the redhead... I don't know, I have heard so many complaints about Xander over the years but almost never this one. Spoiler If anything, people tend to complain about Willow overreacting in Consequences. 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Halting Hex said: It's not surprising that she's feeling a little bereft. And then Xander Hide contents almost brags about the encounter, how his "connection" can help them get through to Faith. (If by "get through", you mean get choked and nearly murdered, um, sure, Xan.) I don't blame her for feeling empty, for having years' worth of hopes and dreams come crashing down on her. How often had she imagined her and Xander's wedding, and their wedding night? A quick roll in the hay at the local hot-sheet motel with disreputable girl they barely know is not how she imagined Xander's first time, I wouldn't think. (Not to mention the part where she'd just said "I love you" and he's letting Faith "steer him around the curves" before she even gets back to the Library.) I'm not sympathizing with Xander over the whole "connection" thing and he was a little bit too much of an ass at that particular moment, but... after "all my stuff has to be for [the guy with the SuperNose] only" and attempt to seduce the said guy several episodes earlier... she couldn't really expect Xander to view her "I love you" other than in a pure platonic way. JMO. I do not "blame" her either for her reaction. It's totally OK on emotional level. On the rational level though it was, sadly, none of her business. Because of, you know, Oz.And "a quick roll in the hay at the local hot-sheet motel with disreputable girl they barely know" is not how Xander's first time should have been. But the writers decided it would be too much for Xander to lose his virginity in a normal way, with someone he really loved and cared for. Spoiler Still Faith was much better choice than, say, Anya Jenkins. Actually I have a suspicion that Xander wasn't totally in his right mind during the later half of the S,03. - hence Faith and later going to the prom with Anya and not kicking her out when she came to seduce him in his basement at the beginning of the next Season. But that's off-top, I guess... 1 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 No, the miscommunication was epic on both sides. Willow shouldn't be attempting to draw boundaries she wasn't emotionally ready to commit to, and Xander shouldn't be upset with them when he's leaving "sixty, seventy" messages on Cordelia's answering machine. And the whole mess could have been avoided if Xander had told Willow how he felt at sometime when she wasn't in a coma, or if Oz didn't walk into her hospital room at Just The Wrong Moment. Very annoying. And maybe Oz shouldn't have been so quick to take Willow back, given all the history he can see between her and Xander. But it's hard to resist Barry White and Sprite-on-ice, it's true… Er, topic? It's a little hard to believe that O'Toole is hanging out at the school when he's dead, honestly. As one commenter I remember reading wrote, "I used to do a bunk when I had a cold, after all." Link to comment
illdoc August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 44 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: It's a little hard to believe that O'Toole is hanging out at the school when he's dead, honestly. O'Toole didn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be hanging around the school when he was alive, either! Link to comment
lembergwatcher August 18, 2018 Share August 18, 2018 Maybe O'Toole was some creep stalking teenage girls for the "party" he was about to have with his evil dead friends. Just a suggestion. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback August 27, 2018 Author Share August 27, 2018 On 18/08/2018 at 6:19 PM, lembergwatcher said: I'm not sympathizing with Xander over the whole "connection" thing and he was a little bit too much of an ass at that particular moment, but... after "all my stuff has to be for [the guy with the SuperNose] only" and attempt to seduce the said guy several episodes earlier... she couldn't really expect Xander to view her "I love you" other than in a pure platonic way. JMO. I do not "blame" her either for her reaction. It's totally OK on emotional level. On the rational level though it was, sadly, none of her business. Because of, you know, Oz.And "a quick roll in the hay at the local hot-sheet motel with disreputable girl they barely know" is not how Xander's first time should have been. But the writers decided it would be too much for Xander to lose his virginity in a normal way, with someone he really loved and cared for. Hide contents Still Faith was much better choice than, say, Anya Jenkins. Actually I have a suspicion that Xander wasn't totally in his right mind during the later half of the S,03. - hence Faith and later going to the prom with Anya and not kicking her out when she came to seduce him in his basement at the beginning of the next Season. But that's off-top, I guess... Not everyone can be Romeo and Juliet, Xander and Faith was a rollicking roll in the hay and I'm sure neither has any regrets. On 18/08/2018 at 6:37 PM, Halting Hex said: No, the miscommunication was epic on both sides. Willow shouldn't be attempting to draw boundaries she wasn't emotionally ready to commit to, and Xander shouldn't be upset with them when he's leaving "sixty, seventy" messages on Cordelia's answering machine. And the whole mess could have been avoided if Xander had told Willow how he felt at sometime when she wasn't in a coma, or if Oz didn't walk into her hospital room at Just The Wrong Moment. Very annoying. And maybe Oz shouldn't have been so quick to take Willow back, given all the history he can see between her and Xander. But it's hard to resist Barry White and Sprite-on-ice, it's true… Er, topic? It's a little hard to believe that O'Toole is hanging out at the school when he's dead, honestly. As one commenter I remember reading wrote, "I used to do a bunk when I had a cold, after all." Good point but he had to keep up appearances until he could get his gang back together? And remember Oz DOES resist the offer of virgin Willow on a velvet couch, his willpower (no pun intended) must be EPIC! Maybe more surprising he forgave Xander? Link to comment
lembergwatcher September 15, 2018 Share September 15, 2018 (edited) Xander trying to look "cool" in The Zeppo and Angel impersonating Jay-Don in The Shroud of Rahmon have a lot in common IMO. What if those two weren't such a polar opposites as we tend to believe? Edited September 15, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 8, 2018 Share October 8, 2018 Also The Zeppo was an episode, where Xander joined formerly all-female Sunnydale Lizzie Borden Squad. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback October 9, 2018 Author Share October 9, 2018 On 15/09/2018 at 4:49 PM, lembergwatcher said: Xander trying to look "cool" in The Zeppo and Angel impersonating Jay-Don in The Shroud of Rahmon have a lot in common IMO. What if those two weren't such a polar opposites as we tend to believe? And they both drive convertibles? 19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Also The Zeppo was an episode, where Xander joined formerly all-female Sunnydale Lizzie Borden Squad. Unlike Giles who uses a chainsaw. Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 29, 2018 Share October 29, 2018 Quote Eliza Dushku’s Mormon upbringing affected her scenes [...] For religious reasons, Dushku refused to do scenes that were too revealing. This fundamental difference between Dushku and the character that she played – who had no issues flaunting her sexuality – caused a lot of conflict over certain moments in the show. Faith’s sex scene with Xander left Dushku’s family members completely mortified. Her grandmother actually called to complain! Eliza's granny called to complain... Uch, such bickering. I wonder Spoiler what was granny's reaction regarding certain scene in Touched? Link to comment
Halting Hex October 29, 2018 Share October 29, 2018 (edited) I wonder how they feel about ED's brother Nate Spoiler (who guests in Orpheus; he's the ice cream clerk Angel kills) being openly gay? That doesn't go down ("oh, for want of a better phrasing", to quote Giles) so well with the LDS church, I understand. Edited October 30, 2018 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 30, 2018 Share October 30, 2018 And I also wonder why did ED's upbringing affect her scenes but not her addiction? She started taking drugs being 14 or 15 years old AFAIK... Therefore she has already been an addict while starring in Buffy... Btw was Dushku family's belonging to LDS church due to Eliza's mother and her Scandinavian ancestors or her daddy and his Albanian heritage (though I doubt there were many Mormons in the Ottoman Empire or Kingdom of Albania)? Link to comment
Joe Hellandback October 30, 2018 Author Share October 30, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Eliza's granny called to complain... Uch, such bickering. I wonder Hide contents what was granny's reaction regarding certain scene in Touched? I wonder if she watched her nude sex scene in Banshee which is a great deal more graphic? 11 hours ago, Halting Hex said: I wonder how they feel about ED's brother Nate Hide contents (who guests in Orpheus; he's the ice cream clerk Angel kills) being openly gay? That doesn't go down ("oh, for want of a better phrasing", to quote Giles) so well with the LDS church, I understand. He also shows up in Dollhouse as one of Rossum's lackeys. 10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: And I also wonder why did ED's upbringing affect her scenes but not her addiction? She started taking drugs being 14 or 15 years old AFAIK... Therefore she has already been an addict while starring in Buffy... Btw was Dushku family's belonging to LDS church due to Eliza's mother and her Scandinavian ancestors or her daddy and his Albanian heritage (though I doubt there were many Mormons in the Ottoman Empire or Kingdom of Albania)? I never new THAT! I only found out about her sexual abuse during True Lies a little while back. Still, she seems to have sorted herself out. Sometimes ED really reminds me of Faith much as SMG's daddy issues really reminds me of Buffy. Edited October 30, 2018 by Joe Hellandback Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 30, 2018 Share October 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said: I wonder if she watched her nude sex scene in Banshee She probably didn't live that long Spoiler after watching Touched. 15 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said: Still, she seems to have sorted herself out. I've read somewhere that she's sober for the last eight years. Quote 'Drugs didn't love me, they didn't love my family. They definitely didn't love my friends that died, I have a lot of friends that are dead.' Eliza - who has been sober for eight years - told the students that at one point her problem with drugs got so bad her family banned her from seeing her niece, Sofia, who was a toddler at the time. The actress told the summit that her brother was right in banning her from seeing her niece. You can read it here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4291016/Eliza-Dushku-reveals-drug-addict-alcoholic.html Link to comment
Joe Hellandback October 31, 2018 Author Share October 31, 2018 On 30/10/2018 at 9:36 AM, lembergwatcher said: She probably didn't live that long Hide contents after watching Touched. I've read somewhere that she's sober for the last eight years. You can read it here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4291016/Eliza-Dushku-reveals-drug-addict-alcoholic.html Hmmm, I wonder if that's why she emancipated herself? Still, shows Nic isn't alone in his issues. Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 12, 2018 Share December 12, 2018 (edited) Quote Willow: Xander, what are you doing here? Xander: Nothing. Certainly not crime. (grins guiltily and glances behind him) Wh-what about you? Willow: (worried) I-I needed supplies for a protection spell. Buffy called from Angel's. I-it's happening tonight. Xander: And that thing that's happening would be...? Willow: I-I can't stay. Buffy'll needs this. She goes, leaving Xander standing there still unenlightened. Just as quickly she comes back and gives him a tight hug. She lets go and looks up at him. Willow: I love you, Xander. Again she hurries off, leaving him to ponder his next move. First, "Xander, what are you doing here?"... Really? What do you expect him to do after his so-called friends told Xander to stay back, Little Tree? Where do you want him to be? At home with his loving parents? Second, I know our Xander has "gross emotional problems", but isn't he supposed to be a little bit, you know, offended just like the rest of them? Like Willow herself, for example. Quote Willow: I'd be offended if you haven't already counted me in. Spoiler Some people point out one of the reasons Faith changed sides eventually was because the gang chose to keep her in the dark regarding several slaying-related issues. Faith was obviously mad at the Scoobs for "talking behind her back" in Revelations. But Faith is a newbie in the gang. Here we have the guy who's been the part of the group for the third year in a row, not someone who joined the team a few months back. Despite taking active part in the fight and saving his friends' and former girlfriend's asses on some ocassions in the past, Xander finds himself not worthy enough to even know what exactly is going on. Xander may be a little dorky, but he's still able to put two and two together, isn't he? His friends either think he's really "useless" as Cordelia put it or do not trust him from now on. Which is very offensive, I must say. And don't tell me they are deeply concerned for Xander's safety which is a kind of bullshit I'll never buy. Mostly, because Xander managed to survive facing similar threats for all these years Spoiler and because the gang chose "forgive & forget" policy after Faith nearly killed him in Consequences. Why does Xander have to be the one to take everything for granted, to forgive the things most people rarely forgive? Did Dan Vebber really believe Xander from The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, WSWB or Innocence and Xander from The Zeppo were two different Xanders? Or did Dan think Xander was supposed to be Jonathan's clone? How could he confuse those two? Was Xander some of us came to love in two previous seasons kidnapped by aliens and replaced with the dorky doppelganger? As for Willow's "I love you, Xander"... This happens to be my favorite moment in the ep and one of my most favorite scenes in the series, but... I don't see how Xander could interpret those words as "I'm in love with you" since Willow made it pretty clear she wanted the werewolf and Xander was nothing but an unfortunate mistake moved on from several eps earlier? Not to mention she continues to play the role of Oz's devoted girlfriend the very next morning. Spoiler And even though I totally sympathize with Willow and understand her pain in Consequences on an emotional level, I can hardly view Xander's one night stand with Faith as a legitimate reason to push him away even further rationally. But you know what sucks the most about The Zeppo? Spoiler Making X/F sex probably the only zeppo-issue addressed in the following eps. Not the Scoobs' and Cordelia's treatment of Xander which was terribly wrong on so many levels, not offending him, making it clear his truly heroic acts didn't matter anymore and so on. No, it had to be all about Xander "betraying" sensitive Willow and not the gang betraying Xander... Sad. Honestly, if it were up to me, Xander wouldn't have talked to Buffy, Giles and Willow for months until getting an apology. Edited December 12, 2018 by lembergwatcher 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex December 12, 2018 Share December 12, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Xander: And that thing that's happening would be...? Is Xander being purposefully obtuse here? He knows what's going on, already. From Act I: Quote ANGEL: Something's happening. I've seen portents - XANDER: Apocalypse. They're on top of it. And Act II: Quote XANDER: Giles. Hey, what's going on? GILES: Trying to gain access to the spirit guides - not going very well, I'm afraid. He might be honked he's being told to stay "fray-adjacent", but it's not as if he's not up to date on the issues. 8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Xander, what are you doing here?"... Really? What do you expect him to do after his so-called friends told Xander to stay back, Little Tree? Where do you want him to be? Well, given that all the shops on Main Street are closed at this hour (Jack and his buddies just broke into the hardware store; Willow said "sorry to wake you!" to the owner of Uncle Bob's Magic Castle as she was exiting), I would say that wandering an apparently-deserted street, in Sunnydale, at night, would seem a bit weird, yes. The more logical question is, why doesn't she ask him for a ride? (Perhaps Willow borrowed Sheila's car and we just don't see it?) Edited December 12, 2018 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 12, 2018 Share December 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: He knows what's going on, already. No, he doesn't. He knows something very bad is going to happen, not what exactly is going to happen... Therefore his question is totally appropriate IMO. Because "Apocalypse" is kinda vague term that can mean anything if you're living on the Hellmouth. Not to mention Xander had already faced four Apocalypses and therefore knows the difference. Besides, what kind of information is he supposed to learn from Giles words? 26 minutes ago, Halting Hex said: why doesn't she ask him for a ride? You know why :) Link to comment
Halting Hex December 12, 2018 Share December 12, 2018 Well, he knows which demons, and he most likely knows they're planning to open the Hellmouth. (Willow and Buffy had that conversation about the events of Prophecy Girl before Xander drove up in Uncle Rory's '57 Bel Air, which presumably means that the group had discussed the goals of the Sisterhood of Jhe before this.) What more exactly does he need to know? I mean, "who?" and "what?" and "when?" should pretty much cover it, I'd think. And they know where the Hellmouth is, so that's "where?" and I'm thinking "they're demons" is all the "why?" that needs to be filled in here. What's left? Link to comment
lembergwatcher December 12, 2018 Share December 12, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: What more exactly does he need to know? Maybe he needs to know what makes the current Apocalypse that different from the previous four (i.e., why he has to stay "fray-adjacent")? Or maybe Dan Vebber wanted to portray Xander as not only the "useless" part of the group, but the dumbest part of the group, unable to get it right the first time. Edited December 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Joe Hellandback December 16, 2018 Author Share December 16, 2018 On 12/12/2018 at 7:23 PM, Halting Hex said: Is Xander being purposefully obtuse here? He knows what's going on, already. From Act I: And Act II: He might be honked he's being told to stay "fray-adjacent", but it's not as if he's not up to date on the issues. Well, given that all the shops on Main Street are closed at this hour (Jack and his buddies just broke into the hardware store; Willow said "sorry to wake you!" to the owner of Uncle Bob's Magic Castle as she was exiting), I would say that wandering an apparently-deserted street, in Sunnydale, at night, would seem a bit weird, yes. The more logical question is, why doesn't she ask him for a ride? (Perhaps Willow borrowed Sheila's car and we just don't see it?) The Magic Shop probably does most of its' business at night. Maybe Willow was on her bike? Or borrowed Giles' car? Link to comment
Halting Hex February 4, 2019 Share February 4, 2019 (edited) So Liam watched this one, and enjoyed the humor but was a bit thrown by the "B-plot as A-plot" aspect (I don't think he got the "self-parody" concept, which is arguably a reason to avoid taking that route.) But he did note one thing I hadn't thought about: when Cordelia mocks Xander as "Jimmy Olsen" (during their initial "Zeppo" conversation) and Xander notes he made that joke to the rest of the group, Liam says that Cordelia probably learned about Jimmy Olsen from dating Xander. Which I hadn't thought about, but it makes sense. I grant you that Buffy not only caught Xander's "Human Torch" reference in Witch but made a "Spidey-Sense" joke of her own in I Robot, You Jane, but I don't know if comics history is required reading for all aspiring SHS cheerleaders. So Xander might be getting hoist on a pop-culture petard of his own making here. Neat. Watching the "oddly full" Oz line at the end, I couldn't help wondering if O'Toole went the way of all meals and if some parts of him proved less digestible than others. In other words, did Oz find O'Toole in his stool? Perhaps even O'Toole's tool in his stool? A touch too scatalogical for the WB to be this explicit about, I'd surmise, but I do wonder if Oz ever got the whole story. When Xander rescues Faith and then they hook up at the motel, Liam notes that it's nice to see Faith back with the group, and this is now something of a reversal, as she was the one who had been worried about being excluded (in Revelations and Amends) and now she's "in" where he's "fray-adjacent". Spoiler Of course, this is all just set up for upcoming Bad Girls/Consequences (it's been six episodes since Faith has even been in the Library, and she can't "betray" the Scoobs if she isn't one of them, after all) and so gives me uncomfortable echoes of the rushed Willow/Tara reconciliation in Entropy to make us all sad when Tara dies the next episode, etc. Not to mention that I'm less than thrilled to see Xander jerked around just to service somebody else's plot. But, to be fair, it's not as if Faith's turn was a long-thought-out plan; they were casting for a new subvillain because K. Todd Freeman's getting the part in Grosse Pointe Blank meant that Sunnydale wasn't going to be a haven for Mr. Trick, brother, and the "Dark Slayer" story seemed a good solution. Still, to see Xander dropped down below "that chick in the motel whom we barely see" on the Scooby pecking order is jarring, to say the least. Keep this crap up and he won't be bringing you guys any more doughnuts, just watch and see. So, interesting from a group-dynamics viewpoint, but still perhaps a bit too much. JMO. Edited February 10, 2019 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher November 7, 2020 Share November 7, 2020 (edited) Nicky with actress Noelle Hannibal at the set of The Zeppo. Why can't you find some normal girlfriend, Xander? Edited November 7, 2020 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Joe Hellandback November 8, 2020 Author Share November 8, 2020 20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said: Nicky with actress Noelle Hannibal at the set of The Zeppo. Why can't you find some normal girlfriend, Xander? He should have stuck with car girl, she was hot and easily impressed. Link to comment
Halting Hex July 30, 2021 Share July 30, 2021 (edited) I don't know, I think she's kind of hot. But of course Xander dating a demon would be ridiculous. And I just assumed the Sisterhood of Jhe were all lesbians, tbh. Quote WILLOW (to Were- Oz, after tranqing him): I hope you're not angry at me in the morning. Riiiiiiiight. Because that's the relationship offense, the tranq gun. Not trying to kill and eat Wiilow for (at least) the third time. Does Oz apologize to Willow in the morning for that? Don't hold your breath. It's especially annoying because one-dimensional cartoon Oz seems content to just lock himself away for three nights a month, and let Giles handle the rest. I mean, not that I'm an expert on werewolf lore, but apparently cures for lycanthropy are not hard to find. And yet we've never seen Oz even trying to research this. Hell, we haven't seen him tell the Dingoes why he can't rehearse/perform/travel on certain nights. As I wrote, cartoon. (Seth Green at least has the good grace to look disgusted with himself when he's going into the cage to be locked up. But the actor's interpretation isn't enough here, IMO.) And why does Giles let Were-Oz out of the cage to be tranqed, anyhow? Can't he just stick the gun through the grating and nail Oz as he hurls himself against the door? It's not as if Oz is scampering up the wall and out an unlocked window (as in BatB), so there would be no way for Xander (even if awake) to shoot him through the cage, anyhow. Nah, let's just blame Xander for napping and ignore the geniuses (Giles, Oz, Willow) who forgot to lock the fucking window in the first place… Grrr… Edited July 30, 2021 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher July 30, 2021 Share July 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Halting Hex said: one-dimensional cartoon Oz How could you?? 🙂 He's the best man alive (only after Angel, of course). He's noticed Willow! He was gracious enough to take her back after that terrible affair with Xander! He plays the guitar, ffs! He's cool. And the cool ones are the cream of the crop in the Buffyverse. 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 12, 2021 Share October 12, 2021 Take a look what I've found. The five Marx brothers in '57. And Zeppo Marx happens to be second from left... 1 Link to comment
Halting Hex January 28, 2022 Share January 28, 2022 (edited) Quote INT. BRONZE - NIGHT. Xander sits at a table with Lysette, his expression 180 degrees from his last one. He is bored beyond belief. LYSETTE: And then, you know, I started seeing Dave Peck; he had a Thunderbird, engine completely tricked out, but the upholstery was like shot, and then I was with his friend Mike, not the Mike with the Mercedes, the Mike with the Mustang, an 82, v6, you know the look… Angel makes his way through the crowd. Xander calls out to him as to a rescue ship. XANDER: Angel! Buddy. Friend buddy. Do you want to stay and talk? Haha! Xander's so desperate, he's wanting to be buds with Angel! How pathetic! Sucks to be you, huh, Xander? Hey, guess what? AFAIK, these are the first words Xander's spoken to Angel since… Quote XANDER: You're going to die. And I'm going to be there. —Killed by Death Wow, getting all dramatic there. Skip ahead and everything's just fine. To quote Cordelia, "You must just look back on that and cringe." Okay, okay, so Xander was willing to accept Angel into the group before Forehead lost That Pesky Soul. ("Angel's our friend! Except I don't like him.") He probably would have been rushing off to "be afraid and die" for Angel alone at the start of Innocence, even if Buffy hadn't been part of that equation. (Which is why Xander is a Hero-with-a-Capital-H, but I digress.) But still…it's REALLY hard for me to accept that Xander hates Angel less after Season 2 than he did before. I mean, really? (But don't worry! This episode teaches us that Xander is secretly cool! This totally excuses his treatment in other episodes! Such as: 3.10—Xander gets the "Chanukah Spirit" and joins Buffy's "Save My Broody Boy!" research party. Of course, he doesn't actually help [nor does Willow], so he goes home and sleeps outside in his back yard, getting snowed on and ruining his comic book. Oh, well. 3.11—Xander rushes to save Buffy and Willow [pretty much the most important thing in the world to him, a cause he's proven his willingness to unhesitatingly risk death for on multiple occasions], gets lost and arrives too late, falling through the ceiling as a comedy punchline. 3.12—Xander not only knows less about Kryptonite varieties than Oz [what do you expect? Perfect!Oz knows everything, right?], but he can't even open a jar! Ha-ha-ha! What a loser! 3.13—Don't worry, Xander's a secret hero! He's actually cool! Fooled ya! See? And you were upset. How silly.) Edited January 29, 2022 by Halting Hex Link to comment
lembergwatcher January 29, 2022 Share January 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Halting Hex said: But still…it's REALLY hard for me to accept that Xander hates Angel less after Season 2 than he did before. I mean, really? You could've noticed that when it comes to post-season 2 Buffy every new season deconstructs previous one in one way or another. Take, for example, the Xillow thing. It was some sort of will-they-won't-they thing throughout the first two seasons but then, when season three had arrived, we were told: "Nah, those were some random hormones and formal wear, nothing to see here!" Same with Angel. Besides, how can anyone hate Forehead, the true star of the show and the most desirable guy alive (not so alive in Angel's case, but still...)?.. OTOH Xander's desperation due to Lysette, Cordelia and suddenly discovering he's the "useless" part of the group at this particular moment can outweight his hatred for Angel. Link to comment
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