S03.E08: Lover's Walk

[Joe Hellandback]

Lover's Walk

The Good; Spike is back in town and emotional hell follows with him for the rest of the cast! I think it's at this point that Buffy really stops being about the demon of the week and starts being about the relationships.

The Bad; Are you kidding?

Best line; Spike; "I may be love's bitch but at least I'm man enough to admit it"

Character death; Bye bye to another magic shop owner. Spike's killing her is horrible in the extreme, the sheer brutality of it. The scene where Spike threatens to push a broken bottle in Willow's face is also horrible (pay attention Spike fans!). I remember watching this ep for the first time and thinking "NO! They can't kill Cordy!"

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but eventually they do.

Presumably the funeral we see is of the Magic Shop owner?

Knocked out; Cordy and Xander

Women good/men bad; Joyce wants Buffy to go to parties with kegs and boys, as it happens neither will work out well for her.

Kinky dinky; Willow thinks bowling and rented shoes are sexy which is a whole level of kink beyond my ken, my barbie and all my action figures. . He also talks of 'having a woman' which implies that a vamp feeding is akin to a sexual act. Spike says he's going to torture Dru until she loves him again? Spike also seems to be quite enamoured of Willow (Spillow?) 

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which will be referred to again in season 4

Calling Captain Subtext; How much do we adore the scene between Spike and Joyce?

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Of course when we see Spike's relationship with his own mum, we understand why.

 

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Buffy comments that for some reason she can't fool Spike hinting at their relationship to come and possibly Spike's hidden sensitivity (realising in season 4 that Willow is falling apart, empathising with Dawn in season 5).

Spike also refers to Angel as 'peaches' and a 'great poof' which must have had Spangel fans working overtime.  Plus Dru senses that Spike is infatuated with the Slayer.

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which will also come true 

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy and Angel beat up and threaten to kill Spike for info

Questions and observations; Willow refers to Cletus the slack jawed yokel from the Simpsons. Weirdly Buffy has never even been referenced on that show as far as I know? Xander refers to Buffy and him working at the drive-in, both will but not at the same time. Surely the Mayor wouldn't have let Spike and co run rampant last year and destroyed the world? Xander recognises the ingredients for a love spell from his experience in BBB. Note Xander refers to wanting to be a fireman which will also feature in 

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The Replacement

(Nic later plays one in a very bad Syfy movie Fire Serpent) . Weirdly Buffy says that Spike's not known for keeping his word but to judge by 'Lie to Me' and 'Becoming' he actually does? Or does she mean that he'd promised that he'd never return to Sunnydale? Note that even Angel with a soul still knows how to push Spike's buttons? Cordy's expression upon seeing Xander and Willow together is just heartrending.

Buffy scores remarkably well on the SATs once again showing us there's brains behind that blonde hair. Love Cordy's bizarre leap of logic that Xander has been kidnapped by Columbian drug barons?

Really you get the idea that they're toying with the idea of Spike as a regular character and this was a test for it. Of course the rest is history

10/10 no question

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Weirdly Buffy says that Spike's not known for keeping his word but to judge by 'Lie to Me' and 'Becoming' he actually does? Or does she mean that he'd promised that he'd never return to Sunnydale?

The latter, I'd assume.  Buffy had disgraced her calling by letting Kendra's killer get away, and she did it only because Spike told her that "that's the last you'll see of us, I bloody well hope".  lt hasn't even been six months, the lying sack of shit.

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Note that even Angel with a soul still knows how to push Spike's buttons?

Nothing new there; look at What's My Line, Part 2.   Once sire-whipped, always sire-whipped, I suppose.

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Really you get the idea that they're toying with the idea of Spike as a regular character and this was a test for it

Except that Juliet Landau was supposed to be in this one.  (Her last-second cancellation is the reason this episode is so loaded with speeches.  The one about the homeless guy on the park bench makes me want to hit Fast-Forward, for sure. )  I mean,

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Juliet was also supposed to be a regular in S4, but I'm pretty sure she and James were to have been at least recurring villains, so the idea that this is a trial for Redeemed!Spike seems fairly thin to me.

My objections to Oz's stupid SuperNose are in the other thread.  Cordy falling through a staircase that just held her and Oz (and that held three people when Spike brought W/X there, before that) reeks of contrivance, and the fakeout with the funeral was cheap.  Effective, but cheap.

And Buffy and Angel really should try to stake Spike's ass at the end.  Never mind that Angel's a little out of sorts, they still have the numbers on Spike, and that "you'll never be friends" crap is a hell of an excuse for letting Spike walk after he just nearly killed Willow and Xander, ffs.  What, "insight" makes up for terrorizing Buffy's friends, is that it?  What if Spike really had killed Joyce just to taunt Angel, as he was about to do when Buffy shows up?  Think she'd be letting him stroll off, then?   There isn't enough "sheesh" in the world.

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Not to mention that Buffy and Angel do, in fact, end up as friends rather than a couple, so Spike is, as ever, full of shit.  Sigh.

"I won, right?  Kicked his ass?" is still a total "awww" moment, but I have trouble feeling much love for this one.

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

The latter, I'd assume.  Buffy had disgraced her calling by letting Kendra's killer get away, and she did it only because Spike told her that "that's the last you'll see of us, I bloody well hope".  lt hasn't even been six months, the lying sack of shit.

Nothing new there; look at What's My Line, Part 2.   Once sire-whipped, always sire-whipped, I suppose.

Except that Juliet Landau was supposed to be in this one.  (Her last-second cancellation is the reason this episode is so loaded with speeches.  The one about the homeless guy on the park bench makes me want to hit Fast-Forward, for sure. )  I mean,

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Juliet was also supposed to be a regular in S4, but I'm pretty sure she and James were to have been at least recurring villains, so the idea that this is a trial for Redeemed!Spike seems fairly thin to me.

My objections to Oz's stupid SuperNose are in the other thread.  Cordy falling through a staircase that just held her and Oz (and that held three people when Spike brought W/X there, before that) reeks of contrivance, and the fakeout with the funeral was cheap.  Effective, but cheap.

And Buffy and Angel really should try to stake Spike's ass at the end.  Never mind that Angel's a little out of sorts, they still have the numbers on Spike, and that "you'll never be friends" crap is a hell of an excuse for letting Spike walk after he just nearly killed Willow and Xander, ffs.  What, "insight" makes up for terrorizing Buffy's friends, is that it?  What if Spike really had killed Joyce just to taunt Angel, as he was about to do when Buffy shows up?  Think she'd be letting him stroll off, then?   There isn't enough "sheesh" in the world.

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Not to mention that Buffy and Angel do, in fact, end up as friends rather than a couple, so Spike is, as ever, full of shit.  Sigh.

"I won, right?  Kicked his ass?" is still a total "awww" moment, but I have trouble feeling much love for this one.

Well, that's not exactly a promise then?

I didn't know about Juliet, I don't think that would have worked, I know your opposed to Spuffy but it would have just been a retread of season 2, even

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Adam would have been preferable, especially if Lindsey Crouse had stuck around longer

I love this ep so I consider that a happy accident, turning adversity into opportunity as they say. Yes, it is arguably reprehensible to let Spike go but we see that time and again notably in 

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War Zone 

Everything about Xillow is an awwww moment!  

Just posted, The Wish

Edited July 7, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

This episode is kinda full of "what ifs" for me. For example, what if:

1. Oz's supernatural sense of smell led him and Cordy in totally opposite direction;
2. Instead of Cordy and Oz, there were Angel and Buffy who came to the rescue. Given that the previous episode was Revelations, the whole scene could be pretty fun to watch;
3. The rescue team came one or two hours late.

 

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Buffy: And Oz?

Willow: I never knew there was anything inside me that could feel this bad. For the longest time, I didn't know what I wanted. I wanted everything. And now... I just... I just want him to talk to me again.

Buffy: Just give it some time. And be prepared for some groveling.

Willow: Oh, I'm ready. I'm all *over* groveling.

Buffy: Good. Because, you know, I hear sometimes it works.

Wow. The female character has to grovel before the male character to earn his forgiveness. That is soooooo "feminist", soooo "woman-empowering"... I just cannot find the proper words. Apologizing - yes, but groveling? OTOH we've got yet another proof of how unhealthy and immature the whole Willoz thing is. Bleh!

Willoz from Inca Mummy Girl to Lovers Walk: guitarist looking for a groupie/werewolf looking for a mate meets the girl looking how to make the real object of her schoolgirl fantasies jealous. Even before Willow and Xander started trying on their Homecoming clothes in Willow's room there were some small signs showing Oz wasn't really redhead's top priority ("I didn't know what I wanted. I wanted everything" are her words, not mine, after all). 

Post-factory smoochies Willoz 2.0: Willow desperately wants Oz to look/talk to her

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(even sleep with her two eps later)

because her guilt eats her and she feels she "ows" Werewolf Almighty something (what exactly?). Do we hear Willow saying she wants Oz back because she loves him more here

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(or in the subsequent episodes)

? I don't. The problem with Willoz is not so much the fact that Oz is the wrong guy for Willow as the redhead's tendency to confuse love with loyalty and sense of obligation. We start/re-start the relationships with other people because we want to be with them and love them, not because of the guilt or because we think we "owe" someone something.

And speaking of feminism. Is it just me or does anyone else notice some odd things about the stance the show took with regard to the whole "gender reversal" thing since the third season? 

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Seems like that principle works with some characters (Xander, Riley), while it rarely does so/doesn't work at all with other (Angel, Oz, Spike). Yes, Buffy tells Angel gently to fuck off at the end of that episode, but she quickly changes her mind  (Amends) and turns out to be very unhappy after Broody Boy decides to call it quits (The Prom). Willow apparently doesn't talk with Xander about his one night stand with Faith, but almost begs Oz to stay after much worse betrayal thirteen episodes later. So it's okay to scream "grrrl power" at Xander's or Riley's face but God forbid trying it again with someone like Oz or Spike?.. Well, that's interesting.

Edited March 12, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:24 AM, Halting Hex said:

And Buffy and Angel really should try to stake Spike's ass at the end.

Yes, but only after he accompanied them to the factory. Why should Spike's words regarding W/X fate and whereabouts be enough for Buffy and Angel to let him walk away? "Your friends are at the factory" can be understood both ways IMO: they may be still alive, but they may be dead too. Or everything may turn out to be the usual Spike's bullshit, i.e. Xander and Will are stranded in some other place, not the factory... Why should Buffy believe Spike didn't kill or do some other nasty things to her two Slayerettes just because he says he needs some friggin' supplies for a spell?  What if the whole thing is just a cover-up and very primitive one? Why does Buffy of all people have to believe anything coming from Spikey's dirty mouth?..

The writers seemed to love Spike so much even back then, although they clearly screwed up with letting him leave Sunnydale in some more or less believable manner.

[Halting Hex]

Jenny Trout points out that the "Pez witch" scene is good writing, in that it fills us in about Willow being a budding witch and Oz being a werewolf (both of which will be key to the episode plot) without our having to stop for clunky exposition, as in Faith, Hope and Trick.   

I mean, my objections to the SuperNose are well-known, but it does factor into the story.  Best that Cordelia doesn't have to be all "wow, you can smell Willow because you're a werewolf?  So gross" completely out of the blue.  Well done, Dan Vebber.

[Halting Hex]

I noticed that my critique of a future episode took a side trip for me to vent about the ridiculousness of Bangel taking Spike's "Love's Bitch" relationship advice seriously, and thought I might as well bring that over here, where it's more appropriate.  And, fortuitously, that episode thread was right above this one on the page!

(You'll never know which other episode, though, since my posting this will move this thread to the top.  MWAH-HAH-HAA!  Ahem.

Unless, I suppose, you've memorized all my posts.  Which seems unlikely.  Even though you should.  Slackers…😾 )

Anyhow:

Quote

Seriously, why are these dolts listening to somebody who spent a century with an insane woman, and who couldn't keep her, anyway?  Isn't Spike almost literally the worst choice to make judgments about "love"?  And that's not even counting that Drusilla clearly preferred Angel and was running after him even before he lost That Pesky Soul.

Would this annoy me so much if

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latter-day Spuffy fans hadn't spent so much time claiming that Spike's "insight" here shows how he knows Buffy's heart and how perfect they are and blah blah blah?  (Despite the fact that Spike had already been proven wrong by then, since Angel and Buffy were friends by, roughly, The Yoko Factor and Forehead had already made another visit [Forever] without any of the fighting and shagging and so forth that Blondie Bear had declared to be Bangel's "inevitable" fate.)

  Probably not, but even without that part, this crap still grates.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Seriously, why are these dolts listening to somebody who spent a century with an insane woman, and who couldn't keep her, anyway?  Isn't Spike almost literally the worst choice to make judgments about "love"?

Because they are dolts. And because otherwise they have no reasonable excuse not to stake Spike right there and then. The only reason why they can't dust him immediately is because Spikey should accompany Buffy and Angel to the factory so they make sure both Xander and Willow are really alive and well. 

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Spike knows Buffy's heart, Buffy saw Spike's penis. No wonder they're so good for each other.

 

[illdoc]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Spikey should accompany Buffy and Angel to the factory so they make sure both Xander and Willow are really alive and well. 

Should, but of course, doesn't. In fact, there's no real reason to believe that they are even at the factory!

[lembergwatcher]

46 minutes ago, illdoc said:

In fact, there's no real reason to believe that they are even at the factory!

Well, if Buffy believes "you and Angel will never be friends" bullshit coming out of Spike's mouth, no wonder she thinks Spike's words regarding her best friends' whereabouts are credible too.

[watcher1006]

I have some thoughts about this episode but for the moment I just want to say that

I believe that this episode features the only instance in all of both series that Buffy, Angel, and Spike stand and fight together. Too bad it couldn't have been a more significant fight.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/24/2020 at 5:49 PM, illdoc said:

Should, but of course, doesn't. In fact, there's no real reason to believe that they are even at the factory!

True but why would Spike lie?

On 3/25/2020 at 6:13 PM, watcher1006 said:

I have some thoughts about this episode but for the moment I just want to say that

 

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I believe that this episode features the only instance in all of both series that Buffy, Angel, and Spike stand and fight together. Too bad it couldn't have been a more significant fight.

 

You're quite right, I never thought about that?

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

True but why would Spike lie?

The same reason why he and his Aurelian brethren drink human blood. Lies is a part of him because Spike is a: a) villain; b) piece of shit.

Besides making Buffy suffer by finding two of her best friends dead or having to stake them by herself is something any evil creature will definitely enjoy.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/10/2020 at 1:55 PM, lembergwatcher said:

The same reason why he and his Aurelian brethren drink human blood. Lies is a part of him because Spike is a: a) villain; b) piece of shit.

Besides making Buffy suffer by finding two of her best friends dead or having to stake them by herself is something any evil creature will definitely enjoy.

True but he does tend to keep his word, like with Ford or siding with Buffy in Becoming. 

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

True but he does tend to keep his word, like with Ford or siding with Buffy in Becoming

When you say Spike does tend to keep his word, don't forget to add "when it suits his interest". I don't think two Slayer's little helpers' continued existence was among things that interested Spike.

[Joe Hellandback]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

When you say Spike does tend to keep his word, don't forget to add "when it suits his interest". I don't think two Slayer's little helpers' continued existence was among things that interested Spike.

And by giving up their location it meant Buffy and Angel would let him go? I was always a little disappointed they never made more use of Oz's werewolf abilities in the series, that he could hear or smell stuff for the Scoobs to help them in their cases.

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

And by giving up their location it meant Buffy and Angel would let him go?

Of course they wouldn't! Turning Spike into pile of dust would've been a great thing to do. And why do Spike's problems have to be Buffy's problems? She had to confirm Xander and Willow were still alive or to avenge their death if they weren't. Buffy shouldn't have let Spike out of her sight before the said confirmation.

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

was always a little disappointed they never made more use of Oz's werewolf abilities in the series, that he could hear or smell stuff for the Scoobs to help them in their cases.

Because there were no such abilities. Oz's super!nose became an issue only when the writers of two mediocre episodes needed it.

[Halting Hex]

11 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

True but [Spike] does tend to keep his word, like with Ford or siding with Buffy in Becoming. 

Well, Becoming is a rough measure to grade Spike's reliability by, given that he a) abandons Buffy to [he believes] her death during the fight, thus not proving such a great ally after all, and b) breaks his "you never see [me] [in Sunnydale] ever again, I bloody hope" promise in this very episode, which isn't even six months later.

He might have had sincere motivation at the time, but we're more clearly in the "marks for effort" realm when it comes to Spike actually keeping his word, I'd argue.

[watcher1006]

Over on the thread for S3 "Dead Man's Party" I discussed the mechanism by which problems in relationships are brushed aside by supernatural violence. I'm not entirely happy about how it was used there but in this episode, when Spike is set right emotionally by the big fight and walks off jauntily after telling Buffy where her friends are, I think that is 100% believable. And the catharsis/change in perspective didn't even have to come from a supernatural altercation.

Well, Becoming is a rough measure to grade Spike's reliability by, given that he a) abandons Buffy to [he believes] her death during the fight, thus not proving such a great ally after all, and b) breaks his "you never see [me] [in Sunnydale] ever again, I bloody hope" promise in this very episode, which isn't even six months later.

He might have had sincere motivation at the time, but we're more clearly in the "marks for effort" realm when it comes to Spike actually keeping his word, I'd argue.

When Spike is carrying Dru out he looks over at Buffy fighting and he remarks "He's going to kill her," shrugs, and walks out indifferently. I have to believe that at this point in the show there wasn't a plan to have Spike fall for Buffy, that that idea came much later.

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:47 AM, watcher1006 said:

Spike is set right emotionally by the big fight and walks off jauntily after telling Buffy where her friends are

Well, it's good to know at least someone is set right emotionally by the end of this episode. Although I prefer Spike turning into dust rather than getting out of his drunken stupor. Buffy tried to do the right thing by telling Angel everything's over between them 

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only to change her mind two eps later. But I guess she's always been "one step forward, two steps back" kind of person.

And I do think Willow and Xander's "clandestine" romance should've lasted more episodes. Oz? Cordelia? Who are those people anyway?..

[watcher1006]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:11 AM, lembergwatcher said:

And I do think Willow and Xander's "clandestine" romance should've lasted more episodes. Oz? Cordelia? Who are those people anyway?..

I've been away for a few months. Anyway, going back to this thread, I agree that the story of attraction between Willow and Xander should have been brought to a proper resolution, rather than being summarily dismissed after this episode. After all, Willow pined for her childhood friend to look at her romantically through Season 1 and much of Season 2, the romance wasn't just a quirk of a few episodes.

There are some meaningful allusions to the relationship later in the series, but not many. A memorable one for me occurs later in Season 3 when Willow cries upon learning that Xander has lost his virginity to Faith.

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I agree that the story of attraction between Willow and Xander should have been brought to a proper resolution, rather than being summarily dismissed after this episode.

Sure. OTOH how could Xander even think about competing with the most perfect human beings to ever walk the Earth like Oz 

Spoiler

and later Tara

?

[Joe Hellandback]

On 9/9/2020 at 4:28 PM, watcher1006 said:

I've been away for a few months. Anyway, going back to this thread, I agree that the story of attraction between Willow and Xander should have been brought to a proper resolution, rather than being summarily dismissed after this episode. After all, Willow pined for her childhood friend to look at her romantically through Season 1 and much of Season 2, the romance wasn't just a quirk of a few episodes.

 

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There are some meaningful allusions to the relationship later in the series, but not many. A memorable one for me occurs later in Season 3 when Willow cries upon learning that Xander has lost his virginity to Faith.

 

Agreed, with the exception of Buffy and a certain character who turns up in season 5 Xander and Willow have the greatest love in the show,  

On 9/9/2020 at 11:02 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Sure. OTOH how could Xander even think about competing with the most perfect human beings to ever walk the Earth like Oz 

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and later Tara

?

Because the Xan man is flawed and therefore human. 

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because the Xan man is flawed and therefore human

Why isn't Oz flawed?

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Why isn't Oz flawed?

He is, hence he and Verruca do the nasty and he's jealous of Tara

[Halting Hex]

On 9/11/2020 at 1:07 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

with the exception of Buffy and a certain character who turns up in season 5 Xander and Willow have the greatest love in the show

Is this your way of saying

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there should have been an "impending-death-exception" Summers sisters makeout session up on the tower at the end of The Gift?

"Dawn, the hardest thing in this world is…oh, God, yes, more tongue…"

I see you, Slash-Fan…I see you. 😉

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Is this your way of saying

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there should have been an "impending-death-exception" Summers sisters makeout session up on the tower at the end of The Gift?

"Dawn, the hardest thing in this world is…oh, God, yes, more tongue…"

I see you, Slash-Fan…I see you. 😉

 

 

That's 

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a lot more than just slash. I know Buffy says at the end of 'The Gift' that their relationship is 'physical' and fetishists love her, Dawnie and Joyce together more than anyone except the Charmed girls but no, not what I mean. I did always have the theory that they were linked at a more basic level, they way they seem to be able to sense when one another is in trouble etc. 

 

[Halting Hex]

Quote

BUFFY:  Giles, you pack like me.

Yeah, right, Buff.  You ran away from home, for what you thought would be forever, and crammed all your worldly possessions into one shoulder bag.  We saw you.  Claiming that you over-pack makes about as much sense as claiming that you over-eat.

Quote

WILLOW:  We're not supposed to…

XANDER: Exemption for impending-death situation.

Soft guitar.  Smoochies.  Interrupted by Oz and Cordelia coming down the stairs.

So, wait a second.  Cordy and Oz think their beloveds are in mortal danger, they get to the factory and…they don't call out?  No "Willow? Are you okay?"  No "Xander, where are you?"  Yeah, surrrrre.

I mean, maybe they were busy listening to the soft guitar, but still.

Quote

SPIKE: Blah, blah, love's bitch, etc.

Again, why on Earth are Buffy and Angel listening to this clod at all?  Aside from the points I made upthread (his romantic fixation is literally insane, and she spent most of last season showing that she will always prefer Angel, in part because Angel called out Spike's sexual inadequacy in not understanding "foreplay"), isn't the entire motor for this episode's plot that Drusilla just dumped his ass, again?  And not for anybody particularly suave or seductive…a Chaos Demon, "all slime and antlers".  Not exactly a charmer, it doesn't sound.

Spike's got as much cause to give advice on love as he does on getting a proper suntan.  You'd think even Dear Forehead, who's not exactly known for his brainpower, could figure that one out.  (And I'd like to think Buffy was at least slightly on the ball, given that she guesses Spike's "clever" hiding spot straight off.  Disappointing.)

*************************

So, Cordelia fell through the stairs, got impaled, and bleeding to death.  And Xander is Spider-Maning down the hole, despite how he couldn't stand five seconds before (okayyyyy)…

…but first, let's take time for a big fight centered on Spike and…um, Lenny, whom we've never seen before and who, once he faces off one-on-one with Spike, gets slain in less than a minute.  I mean, great fight choreography (go, Jeff Pruitt!) but so damn unnecessary.

Especially when you consider that both sides want the same thing.  The Mayor wants Spike to leave town;  Spike wants to leave town.  So why are we fighting again, exactly?

**************************

Quote

Cordelia's head falls to the side.  She loses consciousness.

MY DAD (a bit bummed):  Well, that's the end of Cordelia, I guess.

ME (know-it-all):  She's a main character; they're not going to kill her off in the middle of the season.  She has a contract.

Funeral starts.

ME (surprised):  Well, maybe…

Hey, they got me good.  Which is why I still remember that exchange, 23 years later.  (RIP, Dad.  Happy Father's Day.)

But still…

It's a cheap shock, and as I get older and crankier, it feels like a middle finger to the audience that just spent most of 1998 legitimately devastated by Jenny's death and by Buffy sending Angel to Hell.   You can't make tearing our hearts out the centerpiece of your storytelling and then be all "relax, just funning.  Why are you so involved, anyhow?"

I mean, we've been taught to hate people who pull that kind of shit…

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ANGEL:  Let's not make a big deal of it. It happened.

BUFFY:  It is a big deal!

ANGEL: It's what?  Fireworks?  Bells ringing?  A dulcet choir of pretty little birdies? (laughs)

—Innocence

I mean, a little respect.  I'm just saying.

ETA:  On further reflection, I'm not really thrilled with an episode that shows me a convincingly-terrorized Willow…and then wants me to sympathize with the Plastic Werewolf because Rotten Cheater Willow broke his little PezWitch-smitten heart.  Could we hold off on "Willow is a lousy person" until we have an episode where she isn't threatened with being mutilated, murdered, raped, and vampirized, perhaps?  Just a thought.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 6/24/2021 at 12:06 AM, Halting Hex said:

Cordy and Oz think their beloveds are in mortal danger, they get to the factory and…they don't call out?

What if they think Xillow's alleged captor is somewhere nearby and don't want to attract too much attention? But of course I prefer Ozdelia calling out their significant others.

On 6/24/2021 at 12:06 AM, Halting Hex said:

Again, why on Earth are Buffy and Angel listening to this clod at all?

Because in order for the plot of this ep to work the characters have to be, as Snyder once put it, deeply stupid. Unfortunately 

Spoiler

that becomes quite a pattern throughout all post-graduation seasons.

 

On 6/24/2021 at 12:06 AM, Halting Hex said:

The Mayor wants Spike to leave town;  Spike wants to leave town.  So why are we fighting again, exactly?

Right. But still that's one of the best fighting scenes in the series IMO. 

On 6/24/2021 at 12:06 AM, Halting Hex said:

On further reflection, I'm not really thrilled with an episode that shows me a convincingly-terrorized Willow…and then wants me to sympathize with the Plastic Werewolf because Rotten Cheater Willow broke his little PezWitch-smitten heart.  Could we hold off on "Willow is a lousy person" until we have an episode where she isn't threatened with being murdered, raped, and vampirized, perhaps?

No terror Willow felt, no threat she's ever faced, no impending death situation can be a justification for her "cheating" on The Most Perfect Man Alive (next to Angel, of course).

Edited June 24, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[taanja]

On 7/6/2018 at 11:43 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Lover's Walk

The Good; Spike is back in town and emotional hell follows with him for the rest of the cast! I think it's at this point that Buffy really stops being about the demon of the week and starts being about the relationships.

The Bad; Are you kidding?

Best line; Spike; "I may be love's bitch but at least I'm man enough to admit it"

Character death; Bye bye to another magic shop owner. Spike's killing her is horrible in the extreme, the sheer brutality of it. The scene where Spike threatens to push a broken bottle in Willow's face is also horrible (pay attention Spike fans!). I remember watching this ep for the first time and thinking "NO! They can't kill Cordy!"

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but eventually they do.

Presumably the funeral we see is of the Magic Shop owner?

Knocked out; Cordy and Xander

Women good/men bad; Joyce wants Buffy to go to parties with kegs and boys, as it happens neither will work out well for her.

Kinky dinky; Willow thinks bowling and rented shoes are sexy which is a whole level of kink beyond my ken, my barbie and all my action figures. . He also talks of 'having a woman' which implies that a vamp feeding is akin to a sexual act. Spike says he's going to torture Dru until she loves him again? Spike also seems to be quite enamoured of Willow (Spillow?) 

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which will be referred to again in season 4

Calling Captain Subtext; How much do we adore the scene between Spike and Joyce?

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Of course when we see Spike's relationship with his own mum, we understand why.

 

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Buffy comments that for some reason she can't fool Spike hinting at their relationship to come and possibly Spike's hidden sensitivity (realising in season 4 that Willow is falling apart, empathising with Dawn in season 5).

Spike also refers to Angel as 'peaches' and a 'great poof' which must have had Spangel fans working overtime.  Plus Dru senses that Spike is infatuated with the Slayer.

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which will also come true 

Guantanamo Bay; Buffy and Angel beat up and threaten to kill Spike for info

Questions and observations; Willow refers to Cletus the slack jawed yokel from the Simpsons. Weirdly Buffy has never even been referenced on that show as far as I know? Xander refers to Buffy and him working at the drive-in, both will but not at the same time. Surely the Mayor wouldn't have let Spike and co run rampant last year and destroyed the world? Xander recognises the ingredients for a love spell from his experience in BBB. Note Xander refers to wanting to be a fireman which will also feature in 

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The Replacement

(Nic later plays one in a very bad Syfy movie Fire Serpent) . Weirdly Buffy says that Spike's not known for keeping his word but to judge by 'Lie to Me' and 'Becoming' he actually does? Or does she mean that he'd promised that he'd never return to Sunnydale? Note that even Angel with a soul still knows how to push Spike's buttons? Cordy's expression upon seeing Xander and Willow together is just heartrending.

Buffy scores remarkably well on the SATs once again showing us there's brains behind that blonde hair. Love Cordy's bizarre leap of logic that Xander has been kidnapped by Columbian drug barons?

Really you get the idea that they're toying with the idea of Spike as a regular character and this was a test for it. Of course the rest is history

10/10 no question

I am just going to pop in and say -- one of ,my all time favorite episodes! But I always loved Spike from the first moment he was introduced -- School Hard-- the way he watched Buffy dance in slo-mo-- hawt! hawt! hawt!

I love that he (Spike) is cruel and kind and evil and complicated. But I never doubted his love for Buffy. Angel only loved her when he had a soul. Otherwise Angel was a real asshole.

Spike never pretended to be anything but a piece of shit -- but hey! a love sick piece of shit at that.

All only my opinion of course.

Carry on.

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, taanja said:

But I never doubted his love for Buffy.

The reason Spike kidnapped Willow & Xander and then threatened Willow or tried to blackmail Buffy & Angel into helping him was his obsession with Drusilla. Love for Buffy? 

Spoiler

That came much later.

 

4 hours ago, taanja said:

a love sick piece of shit at that

That's hardly a redeeming quality... 🙂

Edited July 1, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Gigi43]

4 hours ago, taanja said:

I am just going to pop in and say -- one of ,my all time favorite episodes! But I always loved Spike from the first moment he was introduced -- School Hard-- the way he watched Buffy dance in slo-mo-- hawt! hawt! hawt!

I love that he (Spike) is cruel and kind and evil and complicated. But I never doubted his love for Buffy. Angel only loved her when he had a soul. Otherwise Angel was a real asshole.

Spike never pretended to be anything but a piece of shit -- but hey! a love sick piece of shit at that.

All only my opinion of course.

Carry on.

 

Being a piece of shit is better than being an asshole? You never doubted he loved her? Season 6 spoiler

Spoiler

when he tried to rape her that was love? Had Angel(us) tried to rape her instead of drawing pictures of her in her room in s2 would that have changed things? 

 

Lover's Walk was funny but I never got "he loved Buffy" then. He was trying to force his ex to be with him and was going to kill Buffy's best friends to do it. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Gigi43

[Halting Hex]

It should be pointed out that Spike's final "How I'll Win Dru Back" revelation

Spoiler

turns out not to work so well, after all.   Per the flashback in Fool for Love, Dru stands by her Chaos Demon, and there's no indication Spike ever gets around to the "tie her up and torture her" part, at all.

Indeed, it's possible that Dru's

Spoiler

"you're obsessed with the Slayer!" claim

is nothing more than a distraction tactic, much as her cooing over the dead bird in Lie to Me.  

It's no surprise that Spike falls for it, since Angel claimed that Spike was exceptionally persistent, not that he was overly-bright.  (As we see in Innocence, with Spike wanting to keep up the "attack Buffy directly" tactics that, as Angel notes, are what put Spike in that wheelchair in the first place.)

But that just makes it sadder that Buffy and Angel treat Spike as some sort of love-savant here, given that Angel has decades of experience dealing with Spike, and that Buffy is supposed to be pretty good at smelling out nonsense.  Not so much this ep, it seems.  (Sigh.)

[taanja]

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

The reason Spike kidnapped Willow & Xander and then threatened Willow or tried to blackmail Buffy & Angel into helping him was his obsession with Drusilla. Love for Buffy? 

  Reveal spoiler

That came much later.

 

That's hardly a redeeming quality... 🙂

I do not look for redeeming qualities in my fictional characters. I take 'em how I see 'em. Flawed!

Besides at this point in time in the series-- Spike is still in denial. The truth will set him free -- and eventually ...

Spoiler

give him back his soul.

 

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, taanja said:

I do not look for redeeming qualities in my fictional characters. I take 'em how I see 'em. Flawed!

You stressed that being "in love" with Buffy somehow makes Spike "special", i. e. not like some average Joe Vamp. That's more or less redeeming quality. Otherwise there are zero reasons for Buffy not to dust Spike for attacking two of her best friends in this particular episode. 

Spoiler

Or for the Scoobs to tolerate his presence for the remainder of the series.

 

[taanja]

On 7/2/2021 at 5:38 PM, lembergwatcher said:

You stressed that being "in love" with Buffy somehow makes Spike "special", i. e. not like some average Joe Vamp. That's more or less redeeming quality. Otherwise there are zero reasons for Buffy not to dust Spike for attacking two of her best friends in this particular episode. 

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Or for the Scoobs to tolerate his presence for the remainder of the series.

 

I also said in my opinion.

Liking or disliking certain characters is subjective. Spike was my favorite from the moment he appeared. Good bad or ugly I was in all the way.

He continued to endear himself to me until the end (on Angel no less--I only faithfully watched the final season because of Spike)

 

[lembergwatcher]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:41 AM, Halting Hex said:

But that just makes it sadder that Buffy and Angel treat Spike as some sort of love-savant here, given that Angel has decades of experience dealing with Spike, and that Buffy is supposed to be pretty good at smelling out nonsense.  Not so much this ep, it seems.  (Sigh.)

Well, Buffy is supposed to smell out nonsense and do many other things (like, say, not to fall in love with vamp guys) but the thing is she doesn't always do what she should. Unfortunately.

Talk about screwed priorities: seems like Spike's pointless love talk is more important to Buffy at the moment than the fact that the aforementioned Spike has kidnapped (and probably killed or hurt) her two "best friends"...

They shoul've named this ep Losers Walk...

Edited July 7, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Quote

CORDELIA: Why do these terrible things keep happening to me?

XANDER: *cough* karma! *cough*

—Some Assembly Required

So, wait…is that what's happening here?  17 episodes ago, Cordelia wrinkled her nose and smooched Xander in the stacks, breaking Willow's heart…and now she's getting her own back, is that it?  (With a perforated abdomen as a bonus.)  To quote Willow in Prophecy Girl, "Wow. Harsh."

And why is it only Cordelia who has to pay?  To quote Xan himself last ep, "what you tripped and just fell on [her] lips?"  I can't believe that.

I mean I guess a Hellmouth would be the perfect place for the Patriarchy to run wild, but still. Lucky boy, that Harris.

Spoiler

Or not so lucky, given that Karma comes knocking for him the very next episode, resulting in his being chained to Fucking Anya (and possibly chained while fucking Anya) for far, far too long, IMO.

Don't mock in Sunnyhell, Xan.  Ask not for whom the Karma tolls…it tolls for thee.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Again, just because thinking about this "much-beloved" episode makes me nearly have an aneursym:

Becoming Part 2:  Buffy allies with Spike in order to save Giles's life (in the short-term) and prevent the Earth from getting sucked into Hell.  She "lets" Spike get away because he blows town while Angel's kicking her ass.  (Thus arguably breaking their deal.)

Eight episodes later:

STFU, Spike:  Buffy "allies" with Spike because Spike is holding her friends hostage, while also taking the opportunity to threaten her mom.  She lets Spike get away because she's sooooooo grateful for the relationship wisdom she's received…from somebody who just got dumped so hard, he's resorting to magic to try to get his girlfriend back.  (Gee, Buff, if that's your standard, why not just ask Xander?  Been there, tried that.)

Oh, and of course Spike's spent the past five months (since he "swore" he was never coming back to town) killing and killing and killing some more.  And wait until Willow tells Buffy about Spike bragging about possibly committing a necrophiliac rape on the shopkeeper.  That will piss Buffy off so much that she'll…completely ignore it.

You go, Buff!  Such heroism!

[lembergwatcher]

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And wait until Willow tells Buffy about Spike bragging about possibly committing a necrophiliac rape on the shopkeeper.

I guess Whedon & Co had a thing for Jimmy Marsters even back then... Dunno what they loved the most: the hair, the sunken cheeks or something else... 

Therefore what we got here is a same ol' plot armor. That's Spike, ffs! The coolest villain in the history of television! And who cares about some shopkeepers? If Buffy and the Gang let Angel get away with murdering Jenny (G-Man was about to propose to her, I'm sure), why should they lose their sleep because of some nameless woman?

Besides, if you follow Buffy's behavioral patterns or whatever since, say, Innocence, then there's really nothing new here. After "sacrificing the love of her life" in previous season's finale Buffy's probably decided never to put her precious feelings last 

Spoiler

(that's why she's preoccupied with saving Angel before starting making plans of stopping Old Dick and his Ascension a dozen eps later)

. And everyone who thinks Buffy values W/X above any of her relationship is too naive IMO.

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

If Buffy and the Gang let Angel get away with murdering Jenny (G-Man was about to propose to her, I'm sure), why should they lose their sleep because of some nameless woman?

To be fair (perhaps more than he deserves), Angel had been a friend to the gang, and even more to Buffy.  The crimes his demon commits are hideous (from the Alley Woman and on), but perhaps sentencing the demon to watching helplessly whilst Angel broods counts as punishment.  (He certainly seemed to resent his previous submission, to judge by his remarks in Innocence.)

I disagree;  I think the "Angel" hybrid can't be considered to be completely divorced from the demon within.  But certainly there's a case to be made that Angel ≠ Angelus.

Whereas Spike is the same Spike he's always been.  It's Buffy who's gone from "I hate you" to "whatever".  Whatever, Buffy.

[Halting Hex]

While I've mocked the use of Oz's SuperNose in this episode (and Monty Ashley's critique [which I referenced in the S3 thread] that a nose so powerful should have been overwhelmed by the van's gas fumes or Cordelia's perfume still seems valid), perhaps I should retract a bit of my "then why hasn't he smelled Xander all over her the past three episodes?" carping.

After all, while Homecoming et. seq. gave us unprecedented Xillow-smooches, it's not as if Willow and Xander hadn't been that close, previously.  Xander and Willow have seen each other pretty much every day of their lives since they were little (although Willow does say in The Pack that "we haven't always been close", but even still.). They take the same classes, they share the same major after-school interest (helping Buffy)…that's a whole lot of Xander in Willow's life.  Perhaps Oz just thinks a bit of Eau de X is a normal part of the "Willow-scent' package?

After all, the kid's only been a wolf for about 9 months now.  Perhaps his smeller isn't yet as highly trained to tell "hanging with Willow at the Bronze" Xander-scent from "leftover traces of Xander's saliva on Willow's tongue" as yet?

Indeed, given that Xillow are being held together, perhaps the "Willow" that Oz is smelling is actually Xillow, and he just doesn't know enough to distinguish between their component scents, as yet.

Remember,

Spoiler

Oz's later "she's all over you, do you know that?" snarl at Tara in New Moon Rising turns out to be about nothing more than the fact that Tara actually is wearing Willow's sweater in that scene.  Tara may guilt out because she remembers the taste of Jew-ce on her lips, but it's a long way from proven that this is what gave her gay-me away. 

(Indeed, some feel that it wasn't until the end of 4.19 when Tara blew out Willow's candle for the very first time.)

So maybe one future night, Oz might decide to go howl at Willow's door…and be very confused when the SuperNose brings him to Casa Harris, instead.

(Next time, bro, just buy a GPS.)

Edited May 2, 2023 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

So the Review Crew crew just covered this one, and I earned vast opprobrium for suggesting that The Return of Spike might actually not be the Best Thing Ever (I mean, bagging on this and Band Candy?  Clearly I just "hate the series" as some clever person castigated me for my double-dose of sacrilege), it was worth it to hear Mike suggest that this bit…

Quote

WILLOW: This is... just so thoughtful.

OZ: Well, I think about you.

WILLOW: (suddenly disappointed) Oh... I don't have anything to give you.

OZ: (smiles at her) Yeah, you do.

…was Oz's way of hinting that it was time for Will to come across with the cooch, already.

Spoiler

And yes, he'll decline when she tries to go for it two episodes from now, but that's after he found out about her being a Dirty Rotten Cheater, so things would be different.  I understand that someone who wasn't into "Let's kiss! It'll make Xander really jealous!" smooching wouldn't be a big fan of "you'll totally forget how I made you look like a fool for weeks if I give you the flower, right?" sex.

Not sure if I believe that (my mind certainly never went there) but it's not as if we really know Oz that well (there's a reason I keep calling him "a one-dimensional hologram", after all), so there's no point in being definitive.

And besides, I'm fairly certain we have someone here who isn't a big fan of The Perfect Werewolf Guitarist, so have at it, man!

(In the words of Willy the Snitch, "Don't say your old pal [Hex] never did nothing for you.")
 

Edited July 31 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

On 9/15/2021 at 10:27 AM, Halting Hex said:

Again, just because thinking about this "much-beloved" episode makes me nearly have an aneurysm:

And yet again, because the comparisons are just so irritating:

Becoming, Part 2:  Buffy sends her first love to Hell for (she thinks) eternity, even though she knows that Angel has his soul again, and will be endlessly tortured.  (Because to Do The Right Thing, you need to Make The Hard Choices and Buffy, being A True Hero, knows this.)

Yay! Spike's Back! Everyone Loooooves Spike!: Buffy lets a mass-murdering fiend who nearly killed Xillow, might have killed Joyce and murdered and raped Suzanne Krull in the very store where Buffy is now standing (and that's just this episode!) walk away free as a bird, because he shared such wisdom as "love isn't brains, people".  FFS.

You know, I'm fairly certain that Buffy already knew that her feelings for Angel went against her more-rational impulses.  That's why they break up at the end of Angel, that's why they have that argument in the cemetery in Reptile Boy, that's why Buffy says "when I look to the future, all I can see is you" in Bad Eggs, that's why Angel says "maybe we shouldn't" just before the Big Mistake.

Buffy is rewarding Spike with his freedom for sharing "wisdom" that she already knew back when he was in Prague.  Sigh.

Edited July 31 by Halting Hex