Season 1 Discussion: Tusk

[Door County Cherry]

Please use this thread to discuss all episodes from the first season of The Americans.  As per usual, this is not a catch all topic as there are character threads, music threads, media threads....etc.  However, if you'd like to discuss the events of the first season as a whole or specific episodes, the talk should go here.

Seasons 2-6 have separate episode threads in their Past Seasons subforum.  Previous Season 1 episode threads have been merged into this thread. 

[suomi]

Truths and lies.

[Erin9]

@Umbelina reminded me of this episode in another thread. 

This was a big episode on many levels. We meet Claudia and Gregory. 

Claudia’s entrance basically spying, albeit openly, on Paige and Philip was classic. She almost seems perfectly warm and friendly. Almost. 

Paige and Philip were cute talking about her magazine and how Elizabeth would definitely just know he’d let her get it. 

I thought about Philip and Stan’s first racquetball game the other day. Philip saw him as strictly the enemy. Loved their banter about what was real winning- with Philip seriously and coldly saying he’d win any way he could after he left. How his view of Stan changed. 

I always felt so sorry for Philip finding out that Elizabeth had a real relationship with someone else. He was so hurt. She had a point: they weren’t real- but it obviously was to him. 

I did love Elizabeth reaming Gregory out for telling Philip. Even if part of his rationale was to look out for her, it wasn’t his place. And he did want to hurt Philip. 

I’m not sure I really get what Gregory meant when he said that whether Philip loved her or not he should “let her be” so she could have “something real.” Didn’t get it. 

Claudia must have been half crazy to follow Philip like that in the dark. He could have just killed her. That was quite a tennis match- watching the two exchange info. 

I have to say- I enjoyed snippy and dictatorial Philip with Elizabeth. He was angry and hurt. MR  played that so well. 

Philip was pretty amazing in his efficient beat down of those 2 guys who refused to get out of his blind shot. The other guy had a fair amount of admiration and respect for him. 

Poor Joyce. She was foolish to marry someone she suspected of some kind of illegal behavior, but what a price she paid. And, look Claudia- I mean Grannie- lied. Shocker. Philip and Elizabeth thought she’d be safe, but nope. 

I love Gaad. He was so believable as the boss. And had so much presence and personality. You knew where you stood with him. 

Loved Elizabeth’s sincere apology to Philip. I’m not sure that Elizabeth really gave Philip a chance early on. Maybe she was just following the rules. Maybe she didn’t want to try to make it real with someone she’d been assigned to. Maybe it was too much all at once- as she said- strange man, country, house, etc.  She and Gregory met in a more natural way.

But- in the end- it was Philip. I think the only 2 people they really fit with is each other. They have an understanding of each other no one else could ever had. They have a good blend of different strengths and weaknesses. Among other things. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I always felt so sorry for Philip finding out that Elizabeth had a real relationship with someone else. He was so hurt. She had a point: they weren’t real- but it obviously was to him. 

I always thought the worst part was setting him up so he was humiliated by not knowing. Philip himself has no reason he can think of why it was wrong for her to have a boyfriend since they weren't really together, but her letting him go all those years not knowing it as if it was an affair that gets told him by Gregory makes it worse. I understand her pov but he didn't deserve having to walk in there and have some random guy taunting him with how he's a fool and has no real relationships. He even suggests Rob wasn't his friend since he kept his wife a secret and it's all basically because Gregory is jealous of Philip who's done nothing to him at all.

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I’m not sure I really get what Gregory meant when he said that whether Philip loved her or not he should “let her be” so she could have “something real.” Didn’t get it. 

He maybe is trying to tell him that anything they have together will never be real because their relationship (unlike his relationship with Elizabeth) will always be a lie. If Gregory can't have Elizabeth he doesn't want Philip to have her. He knows that Elizabeth now *thinks* she has something with Philip since Elizabeth told him that. Gregory tried to remind her that he's just her cover, but she doesn't seem to agree. So he's telling Philip their relationship can't ever be real.

Philip must have loomed very large in Gregory's life, really. This is the guy Elizabeth has as a reason they can't be together. Plus he's white, which is why he can pose as her husband. He's got status and legitimacy in her life Gregory doesn't. Meanwhile all Gregory really has is Elizabeth. She's what got him into the Cause and now it's 20 years later, the 60s are long gone and his only real relationship, it seems, is with Elizabeth.

[Erin9]

Agreed- Philip was definitely humiliated that he didn’t know. That he got it shoved down his throat by Gregory just made it that much worse. It’s just awful, regardless of the reality of their relationship.  Then, of course, he questioned Philip’s relationship with Rob since he didn’t tell Philip everything.

Maybe Gregory felt that if it started as lie and was part of a life of lies, it would always be a lie on some level. It could never be real because it was embedded in a lie. I don’t agree with that, but maybe he thought that. Or at least tried to tell himself and Elizabeth that. 

I imagine Philip always was a sore subject for Gregory. She had a life, partnership and family with Philip that she never had Gregory. Regardless of how real their marriage was or wasn’t.  She and Gregory had moments. And the cause. And those 2 things seemed to be all Gregory had or cared to have. 

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Maybe Gregory felt that if it started as lie and was part of a life of lies, it would always be a lie on some level. It could never be real because it was embedded in a lie. I don’t agree with that, but maybe he thought that. Or at least tried to tell himself and Elizabeth that. 

I think he just told himself and Elizabeth that. That was probably the whole basis for their relationship at first. If they met in 68 (which I think he says in this ep) Elizabeth was already either pregnant or on her way to being pregnant and she was very freaked out about it. This is the person she bonded with over how she couldn't live this fake bourgeois life. She snuck away from the suburbs or wherever to be "herself" with Gregory.

At the same time, I suspect that Elizabeth didn't bitch about Philip that much and that annoyed Gregory. I mean, if she'd done that I think Philip would have heard about it. He'd bring up stuff that Elizabeth complained about, stuff that he'd done that she told him about. But I don't think Elizabeth would have felt right about talking about her partner that way, especially after they had kids. So she probably just talked about it as not being real, not being who she is, how this guy wasn't someone she chose, he was just part of the cover life.

Over the years, though, the cover life did become who she was. Gregory was stuck in time as the guy she was with when she was single and before she was a mother. She wasn't a mother when she was with him. I suspect that over the years it became...not a duty to see Gregory, but something of one. He was an asset, he was someone she cared about. But she didn't love him anymore. It was no longer a relief to go into his apartment and smoke weed and have sex. But she couldn't just stop and leave him there. So when things happened with Philip she was ready to say good-bye to all that. While he just had to tell himself that she'd be back, that she'd just gotten confused or maybe Philip somehow confused her or guilted her into thinking she should be with him.

I always felt for Philip so much with their relationship that there were times that if I were him I would have had plenty of snide remarks to make about these two constantly telling themselves how they were so dedicated to the Cause while acting like total Drama Queens. Just because it would have bugged the hell out of Elizabeth.

In the end I think their relationship was always strangled by the very things it was built on, the idea that other things were more important. It made it safe in ways her relationship with Philip wasn't.

[Plums]

I just rewatched this one the other day as well! It's been awhile since i've seen any of the first two seasons, tbh. I particularly appreciate the early episodes with Gregory in light of the way the writers made a point of not ignoring what he meant to Elizabeth after he was gone- her bringing him up in the 4x08 fight and then the dream sequence in the finale, which was so amazing. 

The thing that gets me about it is that in those early episodes, it really felt like Gregory and his crew were a huge resource for them. I imagine them being like Hans, Marilyn and Norm were in the later seasons- the default, on-call surveillance team and general mission support. So Philip would have been super familiar with them as well, not just Elizabeth, even if Gregory was her agent. So the betrayal of not telling Philip about the relationship feels even worse somehow. And like, Philip was totally blindsided not just by the affair, but the fact that Gregory was not just an agent, but a recruit. He knew Elizabeth's name, he knew everything about her life, he was her confidante. And Philip had no idea about that either, he just thought Gregory the same story as his crew, that he was working for drug dealers. 

I'm sorry, I love Elizabeth as a character, and I love their marriage, but what she did to Philip with the Gregory affair was just SO much worse than him sleeping with his ex and then denying it later. Like, orders of magnitude greater a betrayal. And yet Philip gets kicked out of the house, lol. 

[Erin9]

Agreed. It always bugged me that Philip got kicked out over one night with his ex (and lying about it) . Especially because it came on the heels of him finding out she’d informed on him. She could have gotten him killed. That heavily factored into him sleeping with Irina. That on top of her decade long deception with Gregory is so much worse that his ONS, but he gets kicked out over it. 

[scartact]

47 minutes ago, Plums said:

I'm sorry, I love Elizabeth as a character, and I love their marriage, but what she did to Philip with the Gregory affair was just SO much worse than him sleeping with his ex and then denying it later. Like, orders of magnitude greater a betrayal. And yet Philip gets kicked out of the house, lol. 

I've been rewatching earlier seasons too, and I was like, LIZ HAS NO CHILL when that happened. Like, I'm surprised Philip didn't counter her anger at him with the whole Gregory stuff.

Anyway, that final scene with Philip and Elizabeth is fantastic. I honestly really do like Gregory as a character, even if he tries to homewreck. I can definitely see how Gregory disregards Elizabeth as a mother and wants her to be the person who exists outside of the Jennings family. Or, maybe "disregards" is the wrong word, but I suppose Elizabeth showing up at his doorstep and teling him she can't do [this] had a real effect on him.

[hellmouse]

12 hours ago, Plums said:

The thing that gets me about it is that in those early episodes, it really felt like Gregory and his crew were a huge resource for them. I imagine them being like Hans, Marilyn and Norm were in the later seasons- the default, on-call surveillance team and general mission support. So Philip would have been super familiar with them as well, not just Elizabeth, even if Gregory was her agent. So the betrayal of not telling Philip about the relationship feels even worse somehow.

There's even a scene where Philip talks about Gregory with respect - about how if anyone could tell whether an FBI team was surveillance or support, it would be Gregory. So it implies that they've worked together before, and he thinks Gregory is good at what he does. 

It's interesting to see how Philip reacts every time Gregory's name is even mentioned after the revelation. Whenever Elizabeth says "I'll signal Gregory", Philip looks conflicted. Like, he knows that yes, Gregory will do a good job, as he always has done, but he also must be thinking of all those times Gregory has been involved before, when Philip had no idea just how much more it was between him and Elizabeth.

[Plums]

10 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Philip looks conflicted. Like, he knows that yes, Gregory will do a good job, as he always has done, but he also must be thinking of all those times Gregory has been involved before, when Philip had no idea just how much more it was between him and Elizabeth.

I just can't get over that Elizabeth kept the fact that Gregory knew they were KGB a secret from Philip for all that time. There's just no explanation I can think of that even remotely justifies that. Like, I can understand her keeping the affair a secret, if she knew Philip had feelings for her she didn't reciprocate and anyway, that was her private life. but as work partners, that is just EXTREMELY important information about an asset they both used that Philip was always entitled to know. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I just can't get over that Elizabeth kept the fact that Gregory knew they were KGB a secret from Philip for all that time. There's just no explanation I can think of that even remotely justifies that. Like, I can understand her keeping the affair a secret, if she knew Philip had feelings for her she didn't reciprocate and anyway, that was her private life. but as work partners, that is just EXTREMELY important information about an asset they both used that Philip was always entitled to know. 

Philip did know Gregory knew Elizabeth's name and her real identity. He understood that Gregory was a recruit and had enlisted all these other guys to work for them without their knowledge. If Gregory wasn't actually in on it he couldn't have run them that way. 

Gregory was like Elizabeth's Charles Deluth. Neither of them met him in disguise so he knew all about both of them and Philip knew he did. Claudia even reminds Philip that Gregory was Elizabeth's *first* recruit and that's why he's so important to her. (Claudia doesn't seem to know about the affair or suspect.)

Philip really has amazing control that he doesn't throw Gregory in her face when she gets angry about Irina.

[Plums]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip did know Gregory knew Elizabeth's name and her real identity. He understood that Gregory was a recruit and had enlisted all these other guys to work for them without their knowledge. If Gregory wasn't actually in on it he couldn't have run them that way. 

Okay, this makes more sense. I recently rewatched the episode, and I must have misinterpreted the part where Philip is yelling at Elizabeth about Gregory when he mentioned the part about the guys all thinking he was just dealing drugs as that including Philip. I was all like "wait, WTF!?"  

[Umbelina]

They were KGB partners, and that's IT, up until Timochev.

Philip would have no right, zip, none, to throw Gregory in her face, because Elizabeth never slept with Gregory again, after Philip and Elizabeth began to fall in love.

Philip, after a spat with Elizabeth, slept with his old love Irina, and LIED about it.  If he had only told the truth, I honestly think Elizabeth would  have forgiven it, since Philip, at the moment he felt Elizabeth and he were over, that those tentative "wanna try being a real couple and really in love now" hopes were dashed. 

Honestly, sex is just sex, and certainly that is true for Elizabeth and Philip, but LIES?  Are devastating, because they take away trust, and without trust?  As spies, and especially in a very new love risk?  Just shattering.  It took them a long time to put those pieces back together. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I totally get why Elizabeth was furious at Philip but the same was true for him for me. He had no right to care who she slept with but he wasn't claiming that. She knew she'd put him at an unfair disadvantage by not just telling him about Gregory and owning her relationship with him him. I think it's significant that even Elizabeth feels bad about that it ways she doesn't about informing on him to the Centre.She drags him into a spiteful ex thing that has nothing to do with him. Plus I think she really did want to now hide how much she dreaded having kids. One of the first things she told Paige was that she was wanted.

To his credit Philip doesn't ever vhold that against her that she didn't want kids. He knows she loves them.

[Umbelina]

I just see it differently.

Elizabeth was a KGB agent, a highly valued and highly dedicated KGB officer.  The KGB never told her she had to love Philip.  They simply ordered her to pretend to be married to him as a major part of her cover.  Then they ordered her to have children with him to maintain that cover.  Her sex with Philip was never out of love, neither was either of her pregnancies.

Her private life, the little of it that she allowed herself, happened when she DID fall in love with an agent she was running.  With Philip?  It was all simply the job.  She owed him nothing.  Further, I think Philip probably knew that she was sleeping with Gregory, but may have underestimated the emotional attachment she had with Gregory, that she loved him.   Sex with Gregory wouldn't have bothered Philip, after all, he routinely used that as a recruiting technique as well.

When the show begins, specifically after Philip is finally given a glimpse of the real woman he married, Nadezhdah?  When Nadezhdah sees him see her?  They have their very first emotional/love connection.   They are no longer simply coworkers, something more starts to bloom.  When that happens, Elizabeth immediately goes to Gregory and calls their love relationship off, and tells him that (basically) I think I love Philip now, we are going to see if a real marriage can work between us, and to do that, I can't be sleeping with you, or continuing our love affair.

Philip?  After a spat, at the first opportunity really, renews a love connection and has sex with Irina, someone he actually has a child with.  He compounds this mistake by LYING to Elizabeth.  Of course she's pissed.  Had he explained what happened, told her how much he loved her, and how he thought he'd lost her again, and that he fucked up?  I think Elizabeth would have forgiven him, especially if he honestly told her how much he's always loved her, and how devastating thinking he'd lost her again was.

The lie?  Blew that to hell.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Her private life, the little of it that she allowed herself, happened when she DID fall in love with an agent she was running.  With Philip?  It was all simply the job.  She owed him nothing.  Further, I think Philip probably knew that she was sleeping with Gregory, but may have underestimated the emotional attachment she had with Gregory, that she loved him.   Sex with Gregory wouldn't have bothered Philip, after all, he routinely used that as a recruiting technique as well.

Sure, she didn't owe him anything. But when it came out it was obvious that it put him in the position of making him feel stupid just so that Elizabeth could have a private life--something that she herself would claim wasn't important. Sex wouldn't have bothered him at all, of course. The emotional attachment may or may not have bothered him, but he'd have to keep that to himself. By lying about a huge part of her life she needlessly put him in a position where Gregory gets to use it against him, something Gregory was always going to do if he thought Elizabeth might care for Philip too much.

Elizabeth doesn't do anything without justifying it to herself in such a way that it goes along with the code of conduct she demands from herself and others; it's different when she does it. And it worked fine for a while because Philip trusted whatever she said. It probably would have been fine if she herself had told him about Gregory. Instead she did exactly what Philip did with Irina. She kept it secret (albeit for a different reason) until somebody else told him out of spite and that's where the problem was.

[Umbelina]

She didn't lie to him about the jobs.  They were NOT a couple.  They pretended to be a couple for their JOB.

Philip's feelings were not her fault or responsibility.

After them BECAME a couple, or rather, Elizabeth wanted to try to, she broke it off with Gregory immediately except professionally.  Philip had an affair, and lied to "her face" about it, embarrassing her in front of their boss, Claudia.

We don't have to agree, that's OK, but my mind isn't changing on this one, and I don't think yours is either.  I don't think Elizabeth betrayed him in any way, and also, he seemed to know she was sleeping with Gregory, he just didn't know how deeply Elizabeth loved Gregory.  Gregory was a professional when dealing with Philip, the few times they actually worked together on a job.  Philip would have no reason to feel cuckholded by Gregory, since Gregory was well aware that Philip and Elizabeth were both pretending to be married.

Elizabeth seemed unaware that Philip really cared for her, and even if she knew, I hardly think she mocked him and laughed about it with Gregory.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

We don't have to agree, that's OK, but my mind isn't changing on this one, and I don't think yours is either.  I don't think Elizabeth betrayed him in any way, and also, he seemed to know she was sleeping with Gregory, he just didn't know how deeply Elizabeth loved Gregory.  Gregory was a professional when dealing with Philip, the few times they actually worked together on a job.

It's not that she betrayed him by being with Gregory, it's the way Gregory uses it against him. Here's this guy (Philip) who's always been perfectly respectful of her in this area. She just started actually falling in love with him after he did something stunning for her. She breaks up with Gregory and hopes that's that, that her affair with him will never come out (or at least at this moment she's not interested in telling Philip about her romantic past). They're working with Gregory.

Then when her back is turned her bitter ex decides to not just reveal their affair, which is their business but not something he would ever have revealed while they were together, but to try to poison the way he imagines Elizabeth sees him. He wants Philip to know that Elizabeth saw him as a burden, that she's not interested in family and kids that much--could barely stand the idea of them and is only there out of a sense of duty, that nothing Philip and Elizabeth have can ever be real. That for years she's run to Gregory because life with Philip is so terrible. That's exactly what Gregory's trying to make him believe, that Elizabeth can never actually love him and if she seems to, it's fake.

Iow, Elizabeth set him up to be hurt in ways she didn't mean to do. Of course she sees what Philip did with Irina as worse. She was on the receiving end of it and could defensively imagine Philip doing exactly what Claudia warned him about while she understood her own actions better. And to be fair, Philip doesn't have a monologue where he can really explain his feelings from his own perspective like she does with Gregory. (He does understand where she's coming from when it's explained to him--probably always would have since it's not really so hard to understand.)

When they fight about it later you can still see that the things that hurt them are different. Elizabeth is hurt that he slept with this woman and lied about it. Philip is hurt that she'll always like Gregory better, which is what Gregory told him and that seemed true given the secret context and given Elizabeth already making him feel like she didn't want him. Elizabeth and Gregory talked about him and their family.

When Elizabeth does explain herself it's not like she's ashamed of her affair or should be. She's putting it in a different context than Gregory put it. In fact, Gregory himself might not even ever have gotten that context himself.

Edited June 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Then when her back is turned her bitter ex decides to not just reveal their affair, which is their business but not something he would ever have revealed while they were together, but to try to poison the way he imagines Elizabeth sees him. He wants Philip to know that Elizabeth saw him as a burden, that she's not interested in family and kids that much--could barely stand the idea of them and is only there out of a sense of duty, that nothing Philip and Elizabeth have can ever be real. That for years she's run to Gregory because life with Philip is so terrible. That's exactly what Gregory's trying to make him believe, that Elizabeth can never actually love him and if she seems to, it's fake.

I think Gregory really believed that Philip was wrong for Elizabeth, but honestly the details of that scene are escaping me.  Because it's you, I'll rewatch it.  Even if this is the only interpretation and is completely accurate though?  I may see it differently, as Gregory's final, death plea to Elizabeth that this guy is wrong for her, or something like Gregory expressing his sincere and undying love for Elizabeth. 

It's his death episode, right?

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

When they fight about it later you can still see that the things that hurt them are different. Elizabeth is hurt that he slept with this woman and lied about it. Philip is hurt that she'll always like Gregory better, which is what Gregory told him and that seemed true given the secret context and given Elizabeth already making him feel like she didn't want him.

Still, Elizabeth's hurt and anger are justified to me.  He broke them, and he LIED.

Elizabeth isn't responsible for Philip feeling second best to Gregory.  She CHOSE Philip, and before she chose him?  Of COURSE Philip "second best" or more accurately, wasn't even in the running, Philip was simply some guy she was ordered to work with.  She never had romantic feelings about Philip, Gregory didn't get between them, there WAS no "them."  At all.  It was only in Philip's mind and heart, never Elizabeth's.

They basically became a couple after Philip finally saw Nadezhdah, and she saw him see her. If Elizabeth had a love affair after that with someone else?  Then Philip would be justified in his anger.

Everyone cares so much about that wedding ceremony.  I never did, it was OK at best for me.  The real moment of Philip and Elizabeth finally beginning to love each other was after he killed Timochev, and when she said to him that they never were together or a couple, but now, she thinks/hopes/feels they can be.  That was the "marriage" and the agreement.

Philip smashed that.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Gregory really believed that Philip was wrong for Elizabeth, but honestly the details of that scene are escaping me.  Because it's you, I'll rewatch it.  Even if this is the only interpretation and is completely accurate though?  I may see it differently, as Gregory's final, death plea to Elizabeth that this guy is wrong for her, or something like Gregory expressing his sincere and undying love for Elizabeth. 

I'm sure he did believe it was true--or at least he believed he believed it was true. I don't think Gregory would ever allow himself to act out of spite or insecurity intentionally. But the result is the same. It doesn't matter to Philip whether Gregory is acting out to hurt him, as I think Elizabeth asks him if he did, or if he honestly thinks Philip needs to understand how he's terrible for Elizabeth but the upshot is the same. He needs Philip to know that Elizabeth can't care about him and about their family the way Philip wants her too. And Elizabeth knows that whatever he said was hurtful to Philip. Gregory thinks they're back together when he dies and doesn't want her to be with Philip when he's gone.

Not that Gregory even really knows Philip. His main reason for believing this seems to be that he knows Philip loves their kids. Even in the end Gregory was associated with that idea.

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Still, Elizabeth's hurt and anger are justified to me.  He broke them, and he LIED.

Sure her anger is justified. He's also justified to feel angry at her for informing on him to the KGB and blaming him for them being kidnapped. In his mind, you don't do that to your partner. He reacts to his anger by sleeping with Irina. She reacts to hers by kicking him out. He screwed himself over by sleeping with Irina and, much worse, lying about it because he thought it would just be easier if it hadn't happened and he didn't have to make Elizabeth mad.

But Elizabeth screws herself over more by claiming she didn't want him and he should leave. Then she's stuck hoping Philip will quietly come home on her terms instead of her having to back down and forgive him.

They both very specifically learned from these mistakes. Any big revelation about Philip from then on comes from Philip himself. Elizabeth never tattles on him to the Centre.

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They basically became a couple after Philip finally saw Nadezhdah, and she saw him see her. If Elizabeth had a love affair after that with someone else?  Then Philip would be justified in his anger.

But it's not all just about Nadezhdah and her experience. They had a long relationship before that that where both of them had plenty of times to make the other feel different ways.The two of them don't actually have different feelings about whether it was a big deal or not that Elizabeth was having this secret relationship. Just as neither of them disagree that Philip has any right to be angry about her having a love affair with Gregory. He never suggests she was wrong to be with whoever she wanted to be with. I'm sure he'd like it if he could feel that, but of course he can't.

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip smashed that.

I don't think Elizabeth is so completely innocent of that, though. Yes, Philip is the one that sleeps with Irina and lies about it. He also does it after learning that Elizabeth informed on him for being inferior and weak to the Centre, getting him tortured, and then only apologized for blaming Philip for her own kidnapping as if she was being punished for his inferiority. She can't expect a relationship where only her anger is justified. That does actually seem to be part of what the first season is about, that Elizabeth would prefer to set all the boundaries and ground rules herself and can't.

I don't think the marriage starts when she tells him she'd like to try--they haven't yet worked through enough yet and they're both obviously too ready to retreat at signs of trouble. That's where the relationship starts, but I think the marriage really starts when she tells him to come home. That's after he, despite being kicked out, helps her with the misguided Zhukov plot and lets Gregory have the dramatic ending Elizabeth wants to give him as the end of their love story. (Obviously he respects that relationship to play the part he does there.) They have to have hurt each other and forgiven each other before they can really have a chance.

I wouldn't be surprised if she never had such a crisis with Gregory. He wasn't in her face all the time living together. Their only rule seemed to be that they both held to the idea that they were each other's true loves that could never be completely together because the Cause came first. Gregory could never even really accept, imo, that Elizabeth no longer believed that.

Edited June 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

Actually Gregory v. Irina gave Elizabeth another opportunity to lay down the groundrules to Philip.  Gregory, it should be noted, was a heroic figure, a veteran of the civil rights movement, a member of an oppressed minority and still "true to the cause" living on the mean streets.  Phillip was a shlub in comparison, no competition at all -- except maybe that he knew that the Centre's plans did not include Gregory + Elizabeth becoming "invisible" illegals (not that they couldn't have .... just that that was not the model relationship the Centre was underwriting).

Philip and Irina's relationship was long ago ... their reunion like high school with a bombshell secret child.  Elizabeth didn't "really" care she just wanted to put Philip in his place (remind him of her MVP status) again.  Irina (any past association) would have provoked some sort of punishment for Philip .... just to remind him of his "dependence" on E.'s good graces.  

Elizabeth never could admit that Irina (and that naturally evolving relationship and her sacrifice of Philip for his career) were part of what made Philip who he was ... although she may have considered most of those qualities (including less "ends justify means" -- kill her now -- pragmatism)  as liabilities ... 

Like the person who is "really" upset that someone else ate that last piece of pie .... because they should have known how much they had wanted it ....  Phil might be so flattered that Elizabeth "cared" as to never wonder why -- but we all agree "lying to or not telling Elizabeth" is forbidden. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 7:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think Elizabeth is so completely innocent of that, though. Yes, Philip is the one that sleeps with Irina and lies about it. He also does it after learning that Elizabeth informed on him for being inferior and weak to the Centre, getting him tortured, and then only apologized for blaming Philip for her own kidnapping as if she was being punished for his inferiority. She can't expect a relationship where only her anger is justified. That does actually seem to be part of what the first season is about, that Elizabeth would prefer to set all the boundaries and ground rules herself and can't.

A good point. However, I don't think Philip slept with Irina because he was angry towards Elizabeth, rather he probably wouldn't have slept with her if all had been OK with Elizabeth. 

It's likely that Philip had still had (or thought he had) feelings towards Irina and sleeping with her was a way to stydy whether those feelings were real and thus let go of his feelings for Elizabeth that was given him only pain and continue only as her partner.

I agree that Elizabeth could have given him for sleeping with Irina, but not lying to her. At the same way, it was perfectly understandable that Philip lied: he had seconds to decide whether he told the truth and he was afraid of losing Elizabeth's love and real relationship with her that he had for years dreamed about. Perhaps he thought that it didn't matter to tell "the small lie" when the great matter he said was true ("you are my only one").

But for Elizabeth, just as for Philip, it's essential that they are thruthful in all towards each other, because they must lie to everybody else.

It's interesting how the relationship between Martha and Clark is in S1 parallel. After confessing her love Martha asks "is this real" and Clark says it is.

[Roseanna]

Continueing:

The difference between thwo women is shown further: Elizabeth's anger shows what kind of relationship she wants and that she isn't ready to accept anything from Philip whereas Martha first confesses her love and says that she is ready to do anything for Clark and only after that she asks "is this real" - that's formally her condition but in fact she has shown that she is ready to accept a lie from him.  

In short, Martha believes in words and appearances, Elizabeth believes in deeds and reality (of course that doesn't concern politics).

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A good point. However, I don't think Philip slept with Irina because he was angry towards Elizabeth, rather he probably wouldn't have slept with her if all had been OK with Elizabeth. 

Yes! That's a perfect way of putting it. I don't think he's thinking of Elizabeth when he's sleeping with Irina--he's not punishing her or getting back at her or anything. But he's unhappy and so takes the comfort potentially offered with Irina, a person he loved once and who once loved him. Even if there's no future there.

 

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's interesting how the relationship between Martha and Clark is in S1 parallel. After confessing her love Martha asks "is this real" and Clark says it is.

Also interesting is I've been re-watching The Clock (will post about that in the All Seasons Re-watch thread when I'm finally done) and Annelise says exactly the opposite. She asks Scott to run away with her to Sweden and then tells him to just say yes, she doesn't care if it's real. She knows it isn't. Yet Annelise seems in so many ways to be the most unbalanced character and one who is the most dangerous because she does think things are real. Like with Scott she knows her fantasy of living in Sweden is fake, but she thinks she's really in love with him and he with her.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In short, Martha believes in words and appearances, Elizabeth believes in deeds and reality (of course that doesn't concern politics).

Almost exclusively when it comes to Philip, in fact. Elizabeth very rarely comes out and says how she feels about Philip (iow, she doesn't say "I love you") and she's not many of the big moments where she seems to get that he loves her come through action.

[Roseanna]

Rewatching S1, I notice how normal P&E were as parents. They certainly didn't neglect their children. Yes, once Elizabeth didn't come to fetch them and they decided to lift but that could have happened also for many other reasons in the time before mobile phones.

Paige's shocked reaction to the news of trial separation showed that they had lived a safe, carefree childhood.  

Paige's suspicion began only in the end of S1.   

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Rewatching S1, I notice how normal P&E were as parents. They certainly didn't neglect their children. Yes, once Elizabeth didn't come to fetch them and they decided to lift but that could have happened also for many other reasons in the time before mobile phones.

Paige's shocked reaction to the news of trial separation showed that they had lived a safe, carefree childhood.  

Paige's suspicion began only in the end of S1.   

Absolutely. The show makes a point of showing how completely normal their childhood was, that they certainly didn't neglect their children.  Paige even flat-out says this to Matthew when comparing his father's job to her parents'. (And she's never shown even acting like the responsible older sister until S2 when she starts trying to signal her maturity to her parents by being that way.) Philip's up early on Saturday morning to drive Henry to the rink; they have bedtime routines etc. The incident at the mall was completely unusual--how often did they get kidnapped? They weren't the flakey parents whose kids were always needing a ride after soccer practice, they just had work commitments that could come up at the last minute and took precedence. I always thought the trial separation was the thing that really made Paige focus on them. I mean, she has some questions early on--in the pilot she's already asking Philip why he's having client meetings so late so she's asking some practical questions. But it always seemed to me that it was the separation that suddenly gave Paige the idea that her parents had a whole complicated life going on that she didn't see and it made her suspicious. She couldn't trust them once they sprung the separation on her.

I think some of this gets lost in the desire to make their job turn them into bad parents in a different way--like to say that because they were selfish enough to have this job they not only put their kids in the position of their lives being blown up and lied to them but they also just didn't care about them at all day to day. But it's really more a story of parents who are always shown trying to give the kids what they think they need and wanting to be loved by them. The kids are just as often the ones who are demanding or careless about their parents--which in itself is pretty healthy. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth very rarely comes out and says how she feels about Philip (iow, she doesn't say "I love you") and she's not many of the big moments where she seems to get that he loves her come through action.

The reason may be that because they use words in order to manipulate others, words simply doesn't feel real, nor wouldn't convince the other.

In any case, the writers have clearly wanted to avoid cliches.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The reason may be that because they use words in order to manipulate others, words simply doesn't feel real, nor wouldn't convince the other.

In any case, the writers have clearly wanted to avoid cliches.  

I think that's a big part of it too--they can say that to anyone. In The Clock Philip tells Annelise that he loves her. But he only even says it to Elizabeth twice. One when he thinks he might be writing to her for the last time--when he's taking the meeting with the Colonel. Then later when she finally lays out her fears about Martha and he reiterates it.

In general the words "I love you" don't matter much when they're said by professional spies to other people connected to their professional life, whether they be sources or other spies.

[LeGrandElephant]

I just finished Season one (and haven’t seen he rest of the show). I don’t really understand the backstory with Martha. What job does she think “Clark” has that she thinks it’s ok for her to spy on her boss for him?

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I just finished Season one (and haven’t seen he rest of the show). I don’t really understand the backstory with Martha. What job does she think “Clark” has that she thinks it’s ok for her to spy on her boss for him?

I can't remember if they specifically said what Clark's job was supposed to be, but she thinks he works for a government agency like the Office of Professional Responsibility or they maybe have said the Department of Justice. She believes he is investigating possible leaks in FBI counterintelligence. So she thinks she's part of an official American investigation that is protecting her department and making it better.

[LeGrandElephant]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't remember if they specifically said what Clark's job was supposed to be, but she thinks he works for a government agency like the Office of Professional Responsibility or they maybe have said the Department of Justice. She believes he is investigating possible leaks in FBI counterintelligence. So she thinks she's part of an official American investigation that is protecting her department and making it better.

It’s just hard for me to believe that she’d believe that to such an extent that she’d think it’s ok to actively spy with a spy pen and everything. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

It’s just hard for me to believe that she’d believe that to such an extent that she’d think it’s ok to actively spy with a spy pen and everything. 

I think that part of it's complicated. It's why Clark proposes marriage before the pen. By that point Martha isn't just buying his story, she's got her own happiness on the line. She's started to choose Clark over her job, even if she's not admitting it to herself. The lie about him working for the government is just a handy excuse for not looking at the guy she's married to and the situation she's gotten herself into.

[Umbelina]

On 11/18/2018 at 4:12 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

I just finished Season one (and haven’t seen he rest of the show). I don’t really understand the backstory with Martha. What job does she think “Clark” has that she thinks it’s ok for her to spy on her boss for him?

She thinks he's just auditing the FBI to protect them, and the country.  More below.

On 11/18/2018 at 9:48 AM, sistermagpie said:

I can't remember if they specifically said what Clark's job was supposed to be, but she thinks he works for a government agency like the Office of Professional Responsibility or they maybe have said the Department of Justice. She believes he is investigating possible leaks in FBI counterintelligence. So she thinks she's part of an official American investigation that is protecting her department and making it better.

Yeah, it might be DoJ, but I'm pretty sure that office investigates other federal agencies as well.  I'd guess a special branch of the FBI, so yeah, DoJ.

On 11/18/2018 at 11:13 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

It’s just hard for me to believe that she’d believe that to such an extent that she’d think it’s ok to actively spy with a spy pen and everything. 

It actually happened in real life, an operation to seduce secretaries run by the KGB.  Nothing admitted here, but extensive in Europe.

On 11/18/2018 at 11:45 AM, sistermagpie said:

I think that part of it's complicated. It's why Clark proposes marriage before the pen. By that point Martha isn't just buying his story, she's got her own happiness on the line. She's started to choose Clark over her job, even if she's not admitting it to herself. The lie about him working for the government is just a handy excuse for not looking at the guy she's married to and the situation she's gotten herself into.

Philip, as Clarke Westerfield, is posing as an agent with the Office of Professional Responsibility, a federal agency which oversees potential issues, and both routinely and when specific issues come up, audits various Federal agencies, including the FBI, in many matters, including security, finances, potential traitors, etc.

It will be further clarified and explored as the show goes on.  Clarke would be both protecting the agents and agency, as well as in some cases investigating them, while also looking for security breaches that while not criminal, could be problematic or serious regarding national security.  In the first episode, Clarke (Philip) is just on a routine and necessarily secret audit of that particular office.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[Chaos Theory]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:12 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

I just finished Season one (and haven’t seen he rest of the show). I don’t really understand the backstory with Martha. What job does she think “Clark” has that she thinks it’s ok for her to spy on her boss for him?

But she’s not actively spying....at first.  And that is the point if men like “Clark”.  They don’t walk up to you and say “Hi my name is Clark you’re cute spy on your boss for me.”.  

Spoiler

 

What he asked her to do was keep an eye on her awesome boss so he could protect said awesome boss from those nasty Russians.    He also manages to mans her think they are making fun of her so agrees....only after he marries her.

 

Its actually an out of control honey pot. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

But she’s not actively spying....at first.  And that is the point if men like “Clark”.  They don’t walk up to you and say “Hi my name is Clark you’re cute spy on your boss for me.”.   What he asked her to do was keep an eye on her awesome boss so he could protect said awesome boss from those nasty Russians.    

Spoiler

He also manages to mans her think they are making fun of her so agrees....only after he marries her.

Its actually an out of control honey pot. 

Some of that happens later though (I've tried to avoid future spoilers in old threads for first time watchers.)

I agree though, it was an approach just like that, with a tad of "help me help you to protect the FBI."

[Chaos Theory]

Oh shoot i’m Sorry I guess the seasons have gotten mushed together in my head.

please spoiler tag where necessary 

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

But she’s not actively spying....at first.  And that is the point if men like “Clark”.  They don’t walk up to you and say “Hi my name is Clark you’re cute spy on your boss for me.”.   What he asked her to do was keep an eye on her awesome boss so he could protect said awesome boss from those nasty Russians.    He also manages to mans her think they are making fun of her so agrees....only after he marries her.

 

I'm still in S1 in my rewatch and it's always great watching Clark do his thing. In MAD he comes in saying he's upset about work. Martha gets annoyed that they always talk about work--so he's at risk for making it too obvious that's what he's there for. So he's all apologetic and they start to have sex the first time. He says he doesn't have a condom, clearly thinking he's gotten out of the sex by doing that, but she has a condom so he has to do it anyway. 

Afterwards he says how great it is to feel close to her, how he thinks about her all the time but he's just been so stressed...but she's right, they shouldn't talk about work. And then, of course, Martha is all generous and says he should tell her all about it. Plus he explains that he has this new boss who demands results so it's very competitive...

So he not only gets her to generously want to help him at work he once again plays himself up as weak and needing her help to compete with the guys from work. (While being forceful in bed.) 

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Oh shoot i’m Sorry I guess the seasons have gotten mushed together in my head.

please spoiler tag where necessary 

I tagged it in my post, but I can't tag other posts, or yours.  ;)

I almost did it too, BTW, I nearly gave the link to

Spoiler

Walter Taffet's

 character description. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎11‎.‎2018 at 11:10 PM, sistermagpie said:

I'm still in S1 in my rewatch and it's always great watching Clark do his thing. In MAD he comes in saying he's upset about work. Martha gets annoyed that they always talk about work--so he's at risk for making it too obvious that's what he's there for. So he's all apologetic and they start to have sex the first time. He says he doesn't have a condom, clearly thinking he's gotten out of the sex by doing that, but she has a condom so he has to do it anyway. 

Afterwards he says how great it is to feel close to her, how he thinks about her all the time but he's just been so stressed...but she's right, they shouldn't talk about work. And then, of course, Martha is all generous and says he should tell her all about it. Plus he explains that he has this new boss who demands results so it's very competitive...

So he not only gets her to generously want to help him at work he once again plays himself up as weak and needing her help to compete with the guys from work. (While being forceful in bed.) 

Yes, it was Martha who several times suggested that she could help Clark in order to promote his career or even did it straightaway. It was only putting the pen in Gaad's office that Clark suggested.  

[Umbelina]

That hasn't happened yet though, this is only about TUSK.

[Roseanna]

On ‎27‎.‎11‎.‎2018 at 11:12 PM, Umbelina said:

That hasn't happened yet though, this is only about TUSK.

In the beginning of this thread it's said that it's meant for discussion about all episodes in S1. 

[Umbelina]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:47 PM, Roseanna said:

In the beginning of this thread it's said that it's meant for discussion about all episodes in S1. 

Sorry, my fault, I forgot someone started a "season" thread after the show ended.  xoxo