Best of The Americans

[Umbelina]

On rewatch, I fast forward through almost all of the stuff with the the Pastors.  The only parts I actually (sometimes) watch are from the time he gets lost in Africa, up until the dinner with Stan.  I loved the wife during all of that, just thought, "FINALLY!"  She was acting appropriately, and frankly, they both should have done that from the moment Paige blabbed.

I agree that, as the story stood (no letters ready to go to the Feds) the KGB would have never left that loose end dangling, both of the Tim's would have been dead, and absolutely nothing Philip or Elizabeth said would have mattered.  It's possible they would send the family off on some wild goose chase and then kill the Pastor and his wife, but either way?  They would be dead.  It's hard to underestimate how much time and effort and work went into embedding agents that were skilled and passing as Americans, and who now had 2nd generations spies on the cusp of working for Russia, with real ID's and legality.  You have to think of it they way bureaucrats, more desperate each day, in the Soviet Union would be thinking, having generally only read about the USA, certainly not actually lived a USA life.  Afghanistan and the Arms Race bankrupted them, second generation may have been a pipe dream, but it was almost all they had.  The Pastors were an easily removable danger to that.

I also end up fast forwarding through a lot of the Young Hee story.  It's certainly not because of bad acting but the writing was a tad iffy in places.  I know I was supposed to think that some of the reasons Elizabeth bonded with her were:  humor, large noisy family, intelligent, Liz had never had a friend, good people, strangers in the USA in some ways like herself, fitting in but still "different."  I don't know what it was, but I needed just a BIT more of the personal connection with them, it's a small thing though, I was able to go along for the ride.  The main reason I skip it is that honestly, that's the story that did break my heart.  I didn't care one bit about it's effect on Elizabeth, but Young Hee, and Don?  Honestly, especially Don, since we only got to hear Young Hee on the phone (pity that, should  have put her on screen) but Don?  He was SO embarrassed, so crushed, from the moment he woke up naked next to Elizabeth, until the face off in his office with Gabe and Philip and the woman from Russia.  There was so much pain...it's very hard to watch that section again, or even the happy kids, grandmother, aunt, family dinners because you know it's about to be completely destroyed soon.

I don't know what that one gets to me, in a way that tells me "you don't need to watch this play out again" at this point in my life, but there it is.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

On 6/5/2018 at 4:22 PM, SusanSunflower said:

I think we all figured Martha might well end up dead ... which would have been very difficult to accept ... but then we had surviving Tims to suggest that the writers would not subject US to that trauma .... by all that is logical and holy, the Tims should have met a swift end .... and the Jennings would have had to deal with that (wrt Paige) however they could manage .... but as long as the Tims breathed, I figured Martha was probably safe-enough, even if that other women died with the staged OD and her baby wisked off to (iic) a Cuban future.  

Yeah, I thought Martha might be finished off with malice by Elizabeth or even Gabriel .... just because she wouldn't sit down and shut up and accept her fate ... how dare she object ... 

That's another example of how I think the writing of this show was frequently so lazy. The KGB decides to murder a prominent Soviet hockey player in season 6, primarily because they see him as a propaganda liability (huh?), but Pastor Tim and his wife are allowed to live! C'mon writers! I don't demand that you be strictly realistic with regard to the KGB, but can you give at least decent effort to creating some consistency in the world you are creating, instead of allowing anything to happen, so you can advance the plot as you wish?

[SusanSunflower]

Not to forget that the Tims had the contemporaneous diary and, if you believe Mrs. Tim (the banshee), a contemporaneous audiotape as evidence .... I simply hated the Tims and bringing them back in the final season rekindled a lot of anger ... not least because, afaict, Paige never entirely "got" the burden and ongoing jeopardy that SHE foisted on THEM.  (As if she and her team were the only folks endangered.) Mrs. Tim may be a hysteric ... but now 6 years later (there abouts), it's Stan Beeman, g-man,  (who they met at the Jennings' house) on the phone.  Even Mrs. Tim doesn't deserved to have her life ruined by a blabby 14 year old.  

All the more reason to be done with the Tims .... I'm just sorry Stan didn't call the Tims at home ... and get Mrs. Tim on the line. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Mrs. Tim may be a hysteric ... but now 6 years later (there abouts), it's Stan Beeman, g-man,  (who they met at the Jennings' house) on the phone.  Even Mrs. Tim doesn't deserved to have her life ruined by a blabby 14 year old.  

I would say she was the opposite of a hysteric, actually. Her reaction was totally appropriate for the situation and her making the tape etc. was a wise move!

[SusanSunflower]

I thought in her hysterics she was begging to be wacked ..... because she was simply too emotional to be trusted .... obviously ymmv  

I can be sympathetic to her upset, but her actions were not conducive to survival. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I would say she was the opposite of a hysteric, actually. Her reaction was totally appropriate for the situation and her making the tape etc. was a wise move!

It was. I don’t sympathize with her or Tim at all. But that was a smart move.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I would say she was the opposite of a hysteric, actually. Her reaction was totally appropriate for the situation and her making the tape etc. was a wise move!

It's honestly the only sensible thing either of the Pastor's ever did. 

I'll add this episode to my personal "best of The Americans."  All of it really.  As an episode it was outstanding. 

It was mediocre as a finale, but if this had been the penultimate episode?  I would be adoring it right now.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I thought in her hysterics she was begging to be wacked ..... because she was simply too emotional to be trusted .... obviously ymmv  

But that's the thing--she didn't think they did trust her, which is why she made a Dead Hand tape of her own. You whack me or my husband and you're out. She was emotional because she thought her husband had maybe been killed, but her reaction was coldly logical. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd thought about it a lot earlier--and she never promised the tape wasn't real or was destroyed.

Now that Philip and Elizabeth are blown her Dead Hand's useless if the KGB wants to get rid of them, though. I wouldn't be surprised if Alice started prepping Tim to spill his guts as soon as he told her about Stan's phone call. Obviously the Feds were closing in and Alice has a daughter to protect now. 

[Loandbehold]

I always loved the musical montages. I'm an 80s guy who went to high school and college then. But Tusk, the first montage, was my favorite.

I liked Liz with Young Hee. Philip was the one who usually had the "connection" with his assets - especially Martha and Kimmie. It was a nice change of pace to see Elizabeth have one.

Whenever Philip got mad or showed just how terrifying he could be, like when he told the goons that they shouldn't approach him from his blind side, or when he told Paige to come at him.

The Elizabeth Death Stare. Chilling.

[suomi]

6 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

Whenever Philip got mad or showed just how terrifying he could be, like when he told the goons that they shouldn't approach him from his blind side, or when he told Paige to come at him.

Angry Philip is the stuff of nightmares!

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

Whenever Philip got mad or showed just how terrifying he could be, like when he told the goons that they shouldn't approach him from his blind side, or when he told Paige to come at him.

 

The biggest thing I miss about the TWOP boards was back there the title of the Philip thread (made in S1, of course) was: Philip Jennings--don't get in his blindspot!

[Plums]

8 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

I always loved the musical montages. I'm an 80s guy who went to high school and college then. But Tusk, the first montage, was my favorite.

oh my god, yes. I downloaded so much awesome classic rock because of this show. I had never even heard Tusk before the opening foot chase, and it's so great! And some of the visuals that went along with the music will stay with me permanently. Like, I'll never be able to hear "with or without you" and not picture the train scene. I'll never be able to hear "Don't Dream it's Over" without picturing the season 6 opening montage. Even music that went to scenes that weren't all that significant story wise have stayed with me, like "The Chain" to them kidnapping that South African dude they necklaced in their low key punk disguises.   

17 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

Whenever Philip got mad or showed just how terrifying he could be, like when he told the goons that they shouldn't approach him from his blind side, or when he told Paige to come at him.

One of the most badass things anyone has ever done in this show is Pastor Tim talking Philip down from the other end of Philip's enraged, murderous intent. 

One thing I appreciated so much about the garage scene that I never really considered before was how Stan immediately treated Philip as the truly dangerous trained elite soldier that he is and treated him with the appropriate caution. I had it in my head that Stan's ingrained view of Philip as this kind of sensitive, passive, beta guy would cloud his judgment in a confrontation, but nope. As soon as he knew Philip was the illegal he'd been looking for, he knew he was dealing with someone he couldn't let get anywhere near him if he wanted to live. 

28 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

The Elizabeth Death Stare. Chilling.

Which of course didn't stop Stan from underestimating Elizabeth, lol. She was tensed up and staring him down like she was only waiting for the best moment to pounce, like an apex predator. 

[suomi]

59 minutes ago, Plums said:

One thing I appreciated so much about the garage scene that I never really considered before was how Stan immediately treated Philip as the truly dangerous trained elite soldier that he is and treated him with the appropriate caution. I had it in my head that Stan's ingrained view of Philip as this kind of sensitive, passive, beta guy would cloud his judgment in a confrontation, but nope. As soon as he knew Philip was the illegal he'd been looking for, he knew he was dealing with someone he couldn't let get anywhere near him if he wanted to live. 

OMG, yes! Stan's voice shook when he yelled "STOP MOVING!!!" My heart was in my throat!

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, suomi said:

OMG, yes! Stan's voice shook when he yelled "STOP MOVING!!!" My heart was in my throat!

That's probably my favorite Stan moment ever is when he yells that. Philip gets that he's not going to be able to go in for a kill there. But Paige probably has no idea what was going on there. She probably just thought Stan was being jumpy and emotional.

[Erin9]

One of my favorites is Sandra telling Philip no one has ever known her. That was heartbreaking.  Philip replies that Elizabeth does know him. Fantastic scene between them all around. I’m not a big fan of anything EST, but that scene: gold. 

Philip telling Kimmie that she shouldn’t have told him her dad was CIA- it violated his trust. It went back to his Paige trust issue AND was truly good advice for her. They really had an interesting relationship. I might even find it more interesting than his with Martha.

Everything Tusk in the Pilot. Just brilliant. 

In retrospect- Claudia calling it that they were losing Elizabeth in S1. It was a good scene before the end of the show. Now? Brilliant. It wasn’t fixable after all. Elizabeth was already headed down the path- and it was too late even then. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

One of my favorites is Sandra telling Philip no one has ever known her. That was heartbreaking.  Philip replies that Elizabeth does know him. Fantastic scene between them all around. I’m not a big fan of anything EST, but that scene: gold. 

I remember after that scene a lot of people assumed they would have an affair. That of course wasn't happening, but someone pointed out to me that their body language really does keep going in and out of intimacy. It's not about sex, but the two of them really do have a chance to click. Makes me really wonder what happened with Sandra. She realizes that maybe she shouldn't have jumped right into a relationship after Stan even if it's going fine. But Philip already knows that he actually does have that in Elizabeth. Even when they're not getting along.

12 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Philip telling Kimmie that she shouldn’t have told him her dad was CIA- it violated his trust. It went back to his Paige trust issue AND was truly good advice for her. They really had an interesting relationship. I might even find it more interesting than his with Martha.

Love that scene. It's not only interesting that Philip really is trying to work on her relationship with her father but it's the only time it seems we hear Philip's actual feelings about Paige betraying the secret.

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

In retrospect- Claudia calling it that they were losing Elizabeth in S1. It was a good scene before the end of the show. Now? Brilliant. It wasn’t fixable after all. Elizabeth was already headed down the path- and it was too late even then. 

I wonder how Claudia saw that in the end. Did she see Philip as being the problem there? Or just a symptom? When she says she was wrong about Philip is she just trying to win Elizabeth back by not fighting on that issue? She does seem always ready to tell Elizabeth she's failed her people and her mother and her Cause if she doesn't go along with Claudia.

[Plums]

44 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Love that scene. It's not only interesting that Philip really is trying to work on her relationship with her father but it's the only time it seems we hear Philip's actual feelings about Paige betraying the secret.

I can't remember- was this conversation with Kimmie before or after Paige knew and blabbled to Pastor Tim? 

[Umbelina]

37 minutes ago, Plums said:

I can't remember- was this conversation with Kimmie before or after Paige knew and blabbled to Pastor Tim? 

After.

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie

Good question about how Claudia saw things in the end. My guess is she saw Philip as part of the problem, but not all of it.

She always knew Philip was difficult and probably a bit of a bad influence because he would question things.  Though, at the same time-he may also have been more loyal than she thought. He wasn’t the mole. He hung in there under questioning. In later years, he never defected or ran off. He did mostly retire, but that’s it.  (Even in the garage, Philip never tried to make a deal with Stan.)  I do think she realized bad mouthing him was probably not a good plan. 

Circling back to Philip’s influence on Elizabeth- Elizabeth still had to be receptive to what he said. Elizabeth is nothing if not dogmatic and stubborn. Philip influenced her, no doubt, but all he did was push her in the direction she wanted to go in ultimately. She just needed his help getting there. Claudia probably saw that on some level. 

Of course, Claudia didn’t know that Philip was involved in the “stop the coup” plot. She didn’t know he got back into spying because he so believed in what they were trying to do. Didn’t know he’d urged Elizabeth to think for herself. Elizabeth smartly left a lot of details out when she made her decision on how to handle the coup. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Circling back to Philip’s influence on Elizabeth- Elizabeth still had to be receptive to what he said. Elizabeth is nothing if not dogmatic and stubborn. Philip influenced her, no doubt, but all he did was push her in the direction she wanted to go in ultimately. She just needed his help getting there. Claudia probably saw that on some level. 

 

Yeah, if anything Claudia probably saw her being drawn toward Philip as a sign of the greater problem. Maybe she thought she'd neutralized him when he retired. Like there's no way Elizabeth could still respect or love him the way she did when he wasn't working for the Cause. 

But I don't think she understood that Elizabeth didn't just love Philip because he loved her and even Claudia knows what it's like to be alone. She came to see his pov as actually valuable and patriotic.

[Erin9]

another favorite was when Philip asked if Elizabeth liked anything about being there. That it was okay to enjoy it, like he enjoyed the car- that at least wasn’t a plane. Lol Her answer was classic- it was nicer, easier, but not better. She never did actually answer the question he asked! Very telling imo. She liked it.  She just couldn’t admit she liked it. But I think it’s evident she did like certain things, like her shoes. Lol  

On that subject- Philip and Henry rocking out when they brought the car home was cute. Another favorite of mine. 

[Plums]

48 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

another favorite was when Philip asked if Elizabeth liked anything about being there. That it was okay to enjoy it, like he enjoyed the car- that at least wasn’t a plane. Lol Her answer was classic- it was nicer, easier, but not better. She never did actually answer the question he asked! Very telling imo. She liked it.  She just couldn’t admit she liked it. But I think it’s evident she did like certain things, like her shoes. Lol  

On that subject- Philip and Henry rocking out when they brought the car home was cute. Another favorite of mine. 

I love that scene of Henry and Philip with the car! I wish we had gotten more of that tbh. 

I thought the Yellow Brick Road closing montage to season 5, after Philip and Elizabeth had decided to retire and move back to Russia, just before they found out about Breland, was so telling. Because the focus on Elizabeth's part of the montage was all on the material things she'd be leaving behind- her big kitchen with all it's modern, convenient appliances, her closet full of great clothes and shoes. And she just has this really conflicted, almost distressed look on her face as she was regarding all this stuff. And it's so open to interpretation. Because this was also after Tuan had bitched them both out for their "petty bourgeois concerns", lol. So is she looking at all her things and it suddenly hitting her these items in this home make up her life, that she won't have them in Russia and she'll miss it? or is she realizing "oh FUCK, I have become petty and bourgeois!" because she values these luxuries? And does she take the Breland information and make the decision to stay out of purely a sense of duty and consider it a sacrifice? or does she view the information as a lifeline to continue living the life she's created in America, material possessions included? Or is it a mixture of both motivations? It's really interesting to think about, imo. 

I loved moments where we got to see Elizabeth acting out of romantic love. Like, she is a super, stealthily romantic person, and it doesn't get appreciated enough. I know how much people hate season 5, but I honestly really like it because of all the relationship work. One of my favorite parts of it was Elizabeth kind of crushing on her wheat plot handsome honeytrap, which we hadn't seen before. Philip could tell right away that she liked Stobert, for instance, probably because of Elizabeth's resistance to talking about him with Philip other than to handwavingly say he was funny and charming. She was able to pretend to be unaffected by those things when she thought he was secretly evil, but then when she found out he was trying to end world hunger, she probably couldn't help herself from super liking him. It's why she canceled a meeting with him against the Center's orders, because spending time with him probably made her feel unfaithful because she was so genuinely attracted to him (it's too bad she became so disillusioned after finding out he was a playboy, because I thought it was so cute that she liked the tai chi he got her into. If it didn't remind her of him, it would have been a much better calming exercise for her than smoking) It's the same deal like with that young hot hotel manager in season 3 that she seduced. he made her orgasm, which we can safely assume probably never happened with her typical marks, then she went home and immediately went down on Philip because she felt guilty about it. She tells Paige sex doesn't mean anything to her, but I think she's lying to herself about that. I feel like it certainly means more to her than it does to Philip. 

It's interesting that the "don't you ever enjoy it" thing extended to this part of their lives too. Philip honestly didn't mind the thought that Elizabeth liked Stobert. He wanted to assure her it was okay. She's the one who first had to block any natural inclinations with Duty, and then after finding out he was actually an exemplary human being (before she found out he wasn't actually all that into her, lol) she was so reluctant at the idea of having to keep seeing him. It's an interesting contrast between them. Philip had trouble stopping himself from feeling a sense of sympathy and platonic caring for a lot of his marks, that Elizabeth typically didn't let herself feel, with some very notable exceptions, but I never got the sense from him that he ever felt romantic attraction for anyone other than Elizabeth or Irina. Elizabeth was the one who let romantic interest effect her and her relationship with Philip, whether she felt it herself or perceived it from him in his relationship with Martha. It's just interesting to me to think about, along with how she ends the series on such a note of fanciful romanticism, wondering that they might have met on a bus. I just love Elizabeth. She's just such a great character.  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

It's interesting that the "don't you ever enjoy it" thing extended to this part of their lives too. Philip honestly didn't mind the thought that Elizabeth liked Stobert. He wanted to assure her it was okay. She's the one who first had to block any natural inclinations with Duty, and then after finding out he was actually an exemplary human being (before she found out he wasn't actually all that into her, lol) she was so reluctant at the idea of having to keep seeing him. It's an interesting contrast between them. Philip had trouble stopping himself from feeling a sense of sympathy and platonic caring for a lot of his marks, that Elizabeth typically didn't let herself feel, with some very notable exceptions, but I never got the sense from him that he ever felt romantic attraction for anyone other than Elizabeth or Irina. Elizabeth was the one who let romantic interest effect her and her relationship with Philip, whether she felt it herself or perceived it from him in his relationship with Martha. It's just interesting to me to think about, along with how she ends the series on such a note of fanciful romanticism, wondering that they might have met on a bus. I just love Elizabeth. She's just such a great character.  

I always thought it was also interesting because I think this sort of thing got worse for her after she fell in love with Philip. As she tells Brad, she lets herself start to feel more. Also I think going for a long time only sleeping with Philip gets her body more open and trusting. So like with the guy at the hotel, she hasn't honeytrapped in a while. The guy isn't repulsive, he's good in bed, and her body's more primed to see sex as sex rather than a job. I think that really freaked her out. 

Also her whole conflict over Martha fascinated me. She basically is torturing herself over Philip and Martha thinking that she's a romantic rival or some kind of rival when she never is because she doesn't really get what Philip's feeling about her. But it's also a way of Elizabeth thinking about herself, actually considering that another type of person can be valuable and attractive and worthy of love. Maybe it's a flaw in her that she's not more like that--but that also maybe gives her license to be more comfortable with that side of herself. 

[Erin9]

@Plums

I would have liked more fun scenes with the kids too. The levity and interaction was nice to see. 

I like S5 more than a lot of people do too. And a lot of that is the relationship aspects. (I had issues with what they did and didn’t focus on though.) 

Speaking of that: Another favorite is in S5- the “queen of the rodeo” scene. It was really sweet watching Elizabeth try to take his mind off being depressed and frustrated. Some people saw it as honey trapping, but Philip knew what she was doing imo and went with it. It was really nice. 

I thought it was interesting that Elizabeth liked Strobert. Partially because it was so rare. But also because it bugged her and not Philip. He saw it as being human. And he was pragmatic enough to see it for what it was and wasn’t: this guy wasn’t a threat. He wasn’t a Gregory. Philip could differentiate. And he probably wished she could have done the same regarding Martha. But then Philip was used to caring about people a bit too much. He understood it. 

But I never saw a romantic interest per se. She just thought he was a good guy, she liked him, found him interesting. She didn’t want to, but she did. And one of the few funny scenes in S5 was her realizing she wasn’t his only girl friend. Her reaction was funny. I think Philip’s was too IIRC. 

The only romantic interests I ever saw out of Philip and Elizabeth besides each other were Irina and Gregory. Elizabeth did let attraction/liking  someone- or thinking Philip did- affect things. I particularly liked her jealousy over Martha. She didn’t need to be, but I got why she was. And it led to some really good moments between her and Philip. 

However- I also thought this relationship with Strobert was also meant to show her burning out. She wasn’t that excited about constantly traveling and seeing him either. It’s been awhile, but I remember getting the impression that she would have rather stayed home. Elizabeth of earlier seasons wouldn’t have been thrilled, but wouldn’t have minded as much either. She really minded. (Didn’t S5 have the scene where Philip tossed a laundry basket aside to hug Elizabeth when she got home? I think so. Loved that too.) 

IA- Elizabeth acted like sex wasn’t a big deal, but it was. The interesting thing was: Philip knew it was. He knew it was a thing, and tried to get her out of it when he could. And, IA, the one time we saw her enjoy it with a mark definitely made her feel guilty- hence the scene with Philip after. I tend to think based on his reaction, he had some idea of what might be going on too. 

Having Elizabeth, of all people, be the one to fantasize about meeting Philip on a bus was so perfect- it said a lot about her and how she felt about him. It and the rings ALMOST made up for not getting a single ILU  from her. Almost. 

I find both Philip and Elizabeth to be fascinating. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Erin9

[Plums]

moving over to the Elizabeth thread.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

However- I also thought this relationship with Strobert was also meant to show her burning out. She wasn’t that excited about constantly traveling and seeing him either. It’s been awhile, but I remember getting the impression that she would have rather stayed home. Elizabeth of earlier seasons wouldn’t have been thrilled, but wouldn’t have minded as much either. She really minded. (Didn’t S5 have the scene where Philip tossed a laundry basket aside to hug Elizabeth when she got home? I think so. Loved that too.) 

 

Yup, even though she liked the guy she put off seeing him, which was a first for her I think. Philip does totally toss aside the laundry basket to hug her too. So cute. Elizabeth also calls him just to hear his voice when she's with Ben.

I also thought it was funny that Elizabeth liked the guy because he was such...what he was. Like when she was surprised that he had other girlfriends when...of course he does, Elizabeth! He's that guy! He wasn't that unusual a type but he was new to her and once she realized he wasn't evil she saw him as a total white knight when he wasn't that either.

[Erin9]

Another favorite:

Gaad approaching Arkady in the restaurant and explaining that “my problem is now your problem.” If Gaad went down for Vlad, he’d take Arkady with him by exposing other secrets. I love this scene for many reasons: one- it put 2 characters who never  interacted together. That was so fun. I wish we’d had more of that. I also liked seeing Gaad figure out a way to solve his own career crises. Good for him. 

Lastly- it was amusing watching Gaad make this passionate speech for Arkady to respond by simply noting he’d wanted to meet him- just under better circumstances. He had no emotional response, didn’t respond in any real way to what Gaad said. It amused me. We knew Arkady was going to take Gaad’s threat seriously- somehow. But his seeming nonchalance was classic. 

The follow up in the snow outside Gaad’s home was great too. Not as entertaining to me, but still good.

To wrap up my theme: Philip tracking down Arkady to directly warn the centre to not approach their children with the truth without their knowledge. I loved the scene then- and I love it more now. Again- 2 characters who never interacted, interacting.  Philip took a huge risk to make his point, as Arkady noted.  That little scene is even better now that we know these 2 worked together to stop the coup. Plus,  we know when Oleg said Arkady’s name- the name meant something to Philip.  And Arkady also remembered meeting him. Well- I’m sure Philip did make quite the memorable impression. Lol 

[Plums]

19 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Gaad approaching Arkady in the restaurant and explaining that “my problem is now your problem.” If Gaad went down for Vlad, he’d take Arkady with him by exposing other secrets. I love this scene for many reasons: one- it put 2 characters who never  interacted together. That was so fun. I wish we’d had more of that. I also liked seeing Gaad figure out a way to solve his own career crises. Good for him. 

Lastly- it was amusing watching Gaad make this passionate speech for Arkady to respond by simply noting he’d wanted to meet him- just under better circumstances. He had no emotional response, didn’t respond in any real way to what Gaad said. It amused me. We knew Arkady was going to take Gaad’s threat seriously- somehow. But his seeming nonchalance was classic. 

The follow up in the snow outside Gaad’s home was great too. Not as entertaining to me, but still good.

Yeah, this was cool. I never made a habit of rewatching season 2 (such a mistake, because there are so many gems!) where these scenes take place, but I've seen the scenes where Arkady learns about Gaad's death and is super upset about it and when he can't hide his guilt when Wolfe accuses him bunches of times, and those early season 2 interactions add so much to those later scenes wrt Arkady's character. He was playing the game with Gaad in season two, but he obviously also respected him as a counterpart and probably personally liked him too.

I'm just appreciating Arkady as a character so much right now. such a mensch. 

[Erin9]

I always liked S2, but on this re-watch, it’s become more of a favorite. It’s emotionally richer and deeper than S1 (though S1 is quite good too). Elizabeth becomes more emotional. We start to see the effects of spying on everyone from Nina to Paige just questioning her parents on everything all the time- or just mouthing off.   But it’s before everything felt so dark, depressing, with tragedy looming. 

And-  this is the one season where they seemed to make a point of mixing up their character interaction more, as I posted on earlier. (Stan met Arkady too.) I don’t recall them doing much of this again until S6 where Philip met Oleg.  And Paige met Claudia- though that wasn’t super interesting imo. Elizabeth met Arkady in the end too. 

Another little S2 moment- Philip’s reaction when Martha said she liked his toupe. He was so stunned, practically paralyzed from shock. Even his tone of voice totally shifted- especially when he asked how long she’d known! He was freaked out. Lol What else has she noticed?   I’m not sure I remember seeing Philip so visibly thrown off balance. He looked like he wanted keel over. Lol 

[Plums]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Another little S2 moment- Philip’s reaction when Martha said she liked his toupe. He was so stunned, practically paralyzed from shock. Even his tone of voice totally shifted- especially when he asked how long she’d known! He was freaked out. Lol What else has she noticed?   I’m not sure I remember seeing Philip so visibly thrown off balance. He looked like he wanted keel over. Lol 

The Clark/Martha marriage in season 2! When it was still mostly played for laughs before she became Poor Martha. That entire scene where Martha gets super drunk with Elizabeth-as-Jennifer and starts spilling the details of her sex life with who she thinks is her husband's sister was so hilarious at the time, and Elizabeth in character as Jennifer was absolutely hysterical. She never really acted so completely different as that in any of her other alter egos. I like to think she had fun with it, tbh.

It's so sad looking back at it in hindsight because Martha was so glad to see her and have someone else to talk to Clark about and hear more about him from. And it was just all lies. Like, how bitter and depressed and over it she was when Gabriel met with her in Moscow and tried to make her feel better by mentioning Clark. Like, oh my God, Gabriel, of course she knows by now that literally everything she ever thought she knew about him was this huge, elaborate con, please shut up.

Anyway, yeah, I am enjoying how less doom-y yet more cohesive than season 1 it is, and I particularly enjoy the Westerfeld marriage. I almost wish we saw more of it, because in the few instances we did see them where Philip was just in character and not really actively trying to do something, they were such an average married couple! Eating breakfast in their schlubby PJs and watching the news! GIMME MOAR. He spent more or less 2 days of the week just living with her as this guy, for almost 3 years. Like, that list of places she could be when she runs away in 4x07 that he knows from this whole separate life they've lived that he's detailing as he runs through the list, and it makes Elizabeth so insecure seeing how well and intimately he knows this woman (my favorite detail- the very first place he guesses on his list of possible places she would go is exactly where they eventually found her), I wish we had seen some more of that other life. Like, I know why we didn't, but I guess it's just this slice of life thing I'd like to read in a one-shot or something. Just Philip as Clark with Martha during like the timeline between seasons 2 and 3 when she was still happily married, and he's just spending the day with her. 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Plums said:

(my favorite detail- the very first place he guesses on his list of possible places she would go is exactly where they eventually found her),

I remember when that happened someone talking about how it proved that Philip didn't care about her because he never really noticed little things about her and that's why he couldn't say where she would go. And I thought that was such a bizarre take because of exactly what you say here. He got it on the first guess! Of course he had to guess--it's really only on TV, usually, where a person has some designated place everyone knows they go when they're upset. But he certainly knew the places she liked. I remember he mentions a picnic they had once too and it makes you think...they had picnics? But of course they did. They were married and had a whole romance!

Even that time they have a fight is great--it's a lie, but he knows exactly what bugs Clark about Martha without getting so serious that it'll threaten everything. LOL! Those little things make it make more sense than she'd stick to him and cling to the lie, really.

I really loved season 2. It sits right in the sweet spot before they really move to the top of the roller coaster and going downhill. The funny scene with Jennifer even leads to that incredibly complex moment in Behind the Red Door when Elizabeth insists Philip have sex with her like he does with Martha and not only does it trigger her terribly but she *still* wants to continue as if it's some test of fortitude that she can do anything Martha can. (I was actually really disturbed at the time how many comments I saw online of people characterizing this scene as rape when she's not only consenting to it she's *insisting* on it--he's the one who's reluctant. She just winds up not liking it!) 

It's also the last season where the two of them can have the spying between them since in S3 Paige starts coming into it. It almost feels like S3 is the season where their spy selves become parents and they now have this kid to deal with who demands spy attention and changes the whole dynamic. 

Arkady really is one of the best stealth characters in the series. It reminds me of what I said elsewhere, how I was happy that people seemed to recognize and value in S6 despite Elizabeth getting the flashier stuff. I feel similarly about Arkady and Claudia. She's far more aggressive, but Arkady actually spreads a quieter, steadier influence. Such a mensch. 

Also in season 2, despite any problems I have with the Jared reveal, I really like the introduction of Emmet and Leanne as friends and the way Philip and Elizabeth are basically investigating the end of another version of themselves with the solution being the worst thing they could imagine. They don't meet the same fate as the Connors but the foreshadowing really is still true--the kids are going to be the thing that hurts them. The one that learned the truth was hurt and damaged and the one that didn't know was blindsided.

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

And Paige met Claudia- though that wasn’t super interesting imo.

Maybe part of the reason is it feels like Paige didn't really meet Claudia. I mean, she did--Claudia wasn't so undercover as she was in that first scene in the diner (where I guess technically Paige and Claudia met for the first time). But Paige doesn't seem to get who Claudia is the way the audience does in any way. The whole thing of how she always hugs her good-bye pretty much signals that this is an act. Elizabeth says Paige has "taken" to Claudia but there doesn't seem to be any big strong bond there on her side. Which is maybe interesting--Paige in Harvest basically says that she can't be friends with people who are outside their cause, yet she doesn't care when the person she works with most closely, it seems, dies, and there's no sense she's going to miss Claudia significantly either. 

[Umbelina]

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's also the last season where the two of them can have the spying between them since in S3 Paige starts coming into it. It almost feels like S3 is the season where their spy selves become parents and they now have this kid to deal with who demands spy attention and changes the whole dynamic. 

Yes, season 2 was amazing on so many levels, but if you leave out almost all of the Paige stuff, seasons 1-4 are just so fantastic.  If I had to pick a favorite season, I'm not sure if 2 or 4 would win, and 3 would be very close.  In spite of the sort of procedural style of 1?  I loved that too.

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Arkady really is one of the best stealth characters in the series. It reminds me of what I said elsewhere, how I was happy that people seemed to recognize and value in S6 despite Elizabeth getting the flashier stuff. I feel similarly about Arkady and Claudia. She's far more aggressive, but Arkady actually spreads a quieter, steadier influence. Such a mensch. 

I'm so glad they brought him back.  He's a wonderful actor, and Arkady brought the gravitas needed for this sometimes over-the-top show.  Another favorite episode of his for me is when he's spray painting the abort code on the cars.  It's such a short scene, but he manages to capture every single emotion and side of his character there.  He's a professional.  He thinks on his feet.  He moves FAST to save his agents.  He, in that moment, was everything a spy should be.  He rose through the ranks for a reason, and that had nothing to do with family connections or wealth.

I really hate that the show had him deported.  Yes, it was a fantastic scene, but damn, such a loss to the show for one good scene. 

I struggle to understand why the show-runner decided to gut the Residentura, and in some ways the FBI office as well soon after.  They grounded the show, and helped hold it together.  Gaad's expulsion and death, Nina gone, Stan transferring away from CI on the FBI side, then Akady deported, Oleg going home, Nina dead, and after that, we never saw the Residentura again. 

It's especially odd to me, since, aside from Philip and Elizabeth of course, the best relationship on the show was Oleg and Stan's.  Complicated, nuanced, two decent men wary, but at times making decisions to trust each other in spite of the dangers there.  For a show about relationships to abandon that is honestly beyond my comprehension.  When you strike gold you don't just toss it away.  (The reason BB didn't kill Jesse the first season.  The reason True Blood didn't kill Layfayette the first season.)

In some ways, I think these show runner were so committed to "This is the story of Elizabeth and Paige" that they nearly refused to see what was right in front of them.  Arkady.  Oleg.

1 hour ago, Plums said:

It's so sad looking back at it in hindsight because Martha was so glad to see her and have someone else to talk to Clark about and hear more about him from. And it was just all lies. Like, how bitter and depressed and over it she was when Gabriel met with her in Moscow and tried to make her feel better by mentioning Clark. Like, oh my God, Gabriel, of course she knows by now that literally everything she ever thought she knew about him was this huge, elaborate con, please shut up.

Martha's arc was so amazing, from start to finish, just perfection.  I understood why Martha had to go, and it wasn't for "one good scene" ala Arkady.  It was for SO MANY wonderful and amazing scenes.

One of my favorite episodes of all time was the day Aderholt discovered the bug in Gaad's pen.  SO well acted by everyone!  So well written!  The look on Gaad's face!  Martha trying to look calm as pure shock and panic washed over her as she realized what had happened in Gaad's office.  Martha making her way to the bathroom and trying to destroy the receiver.  Martha deceiving Clark.  Later, Walter Taffet's arrival and all of that.  Fantastic story, delivered so well, by all involved, not a clunker to be seen, in script, in acting, in directing.  Perfect.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I always liked S2, but on this re-watch, it’s become more of a favorite. It’s emotionally richer and deeper than S1 (though S1 is quite good too). Elizabeth becomes more emotional. We start to see the effects of spying on everyone from Nina to Paige just questioning her parents on everything all the time- or just mouthing off.   But it’s before everything felt so dark, depressing, with tragedy looming. 

I loved Nina and her story as well.  She was so trapped, and she was another smart character and skilled actor.  She was also loyal to Stan for a long time, a true double agent.  She knew she couldn't trust the FBI to actually exfiltrate her.  Her story parallels Martha's, the KGB didn't want to exfiltrate her either, both were too valuable in place, Gaad didn't give a shit if Nina died, and neither did Gabriel give a shit if Martha died.  They weren't about, to remove such a valuable source just to save their lives, neither agency gave a shit about their lives. 

When she turned on Stan, for very good reasons including the above, and patriotism, and poor Vlad?  So well done!

I didn't care for her suicide, but it was a great visual, and I get why the writers did it.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Another little S2 moment- Philip’s reaction when Martha said she liked his toupe. He was so stunned, practically paralyzed from shock. Even his tone of voice totally shifted- especially when he asked how long she’d known! He was freaked out. Lol What else has she noticed?   I’m not sure I remember seeing Philip so visibly thrown off balance. He looked like he wanted keel over. Lol 

Everything between Philip and Martha was so nuanced and so often surprising.  That's what happens when you write for grownups who can act.  Definitely another favorite moment of mine!

14 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Gaad approaching Arkady in the restaurant and explaining that “my problem is now your problem.” If Gaad went down for Vlad, he’d take Arkady with him by exposing other secrets. I love this scene for many reasons: one- it put 2 characters who never  interacted together. That was so fun. I wish we’d had more of that. I also liked seeing Gaad figure out a way to solve his own career crises. Good for him. 

I know!  I loved that too.

Why they fired then killed Gaad, and gutted the Residentura is something I will just never understand.  I 'm grateful for what we had, but I miss what could have been too.

Instead, hole digging, wheat, random actors without fully fleshed out stories, and more Paige.

I just don't get it.  ;~)

One more favorite moment of mine.

Of all the sex on this show, and there has been a lot?  I liked Oleg and Tatiana's sex scenes probably more than any others.  I loved the discussion about housing in Russia, and having to be quiet.  I loved Oleg's realizations about one more way he was so privileged in Moscow.  Most of all, I really adored the humor, the laughing, the teasing.  For me, those small scenes between them were so real, and about so much more than "just" sex.  Again, both actors were perfection.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

On ‎4‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 12:37 PM, Umbelina said:

Martha after Gaad found the pen. 

Yes! She was terrified but could still act reasonably. There was more in her than it seemed.

On ‎4‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 5:35 PM, sistermagpie said:

Viola in church deciding to confess to the FBI

Yes, it was a good example that even if you have done wrong, you don't have to continue to do wrong but you can change a course and try to correct it. A very Christian thing also (unlike Pastor Tim): when you fall, get up.  

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, it was a good example that even if you have done wrong, you don't have to continue to do wrong but you can change a course and try to correct it. A very Christian thing also (unlike Pastor Tim): when you fall, get up.  

It was also a great reminder of things coming back to bite them that was set up so well. Because their whole thing with Viola is they *know* she's not a good target. She fights them every step of the way. But they take the risk because the reward is so great and they don't have much time and they only need Viola to do this one thing for them and then they'll leave her alone. But in the end everything they worried about was true and Viola was still bothered by what was going on despite no longer being required to do anything herself.

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 8:07 PM, Plums said:

The Clark/Martha marriage in season 2! When it was still mostly played for laughs before she became Poor Martha. That entire scene where Martha gets super drunk with Elizabeth-as-Jennifer and starts spilling the details of her sex life with who she thinks is her husband's sister was so hilarious at the time, and Elizabeth in character as Jennifer was absolutely hysterical. She never really acted so completely different as that in any of her other alter egos. I like to think she had fun with it, tbh.

I don't think Elizabeth had fun at all in listening to Martha's sex confessionsm but just the opposite: painful. Although Elizabeth knew and accepted that Philip had other personas and did honeytrapping, just she had and did, when Martha relealed that Philip was different in her bed, Elizabeth evidetly suspected: do I know him at all? Otherwise why would she had wanted Philip to have sex with her in the same manner "Clark" had with Martha?

It's one of my favorite scenes also because it shows what a pro Elizabeth is: she keeps her role as "Jennifer" whereas Paige screamed "mum".   

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 9:15 PM, Umbelina said:

I'm so glad they brought him back.  He's a wonderful actor, and Arkady brought the gravitas needed for this sometimes over-the-top show.  Another favorite episode of his for me is when he's spray painting the abort code on the cars.  It's such a short scene, but he manages to capture every single emotion and side of his character there.  He's a professional.  He thinks on his feet.  He moves FAST to save his agents.  He, in that moment, was everything a spy should be.  He rose through the ranks for a reason, and that had nothing to do with family connections or wealth.

I really hate that the show had him deported.  Yes, it was a fantastic scene, but damn, such a loss to the show for one good scene. 

I struggle to understand why the show-runner decided to gut the Residentura, and in some ways the FBI office as well soon after.  They grounded the show, and helped hold it together.  Gaad's expulsion and death, Nina gone, Stan transferring away from CI on the FBI side, then Akady deported, Oleg going home, Nina dead, and after that, we never saw the Residentura again. 

It's especially odd to me, since, aside from Philip and Elizabeth of course, the best relationship on the show was Oleg and Stan's.  Complicated, nuanced, two decent men wary, but at times making decisions to trust each other in spite of the dangers there.  For a show about relationships to abandon that is honestly beyond my comprehension.  When you strike gold you don't just toss it away.  (The reason BB didn't kill Jesse the first season.  The reason True Blood didn't kill Layfayette the first season.)

In some ways, I think these show runner were so committed to "This is the story of Elizabeth and Paige" that they nearly refused to see what was right in front of them.  Arkady.  Oleg.

 

Stan and Oleg's relationship interesting, but actually all of its aspects were properly dealt. In S6 we knew Oleg so well that we could guess fairly correctly what choices he would make. It was only P&E and Stan who could really surprise us.

As for Arkady, he was a good supporting character, no more.  

Before all, the show was called The Americans which was of course ironical because P&E were illegals, Soviet spies pretending to be all American-family. But it meant also that it would be impossible not to concentrate just P&E (although Paige could given far less time and Henry more).

Edited December 26, 2018 by Roseanna
changing a word

[Roseanna]

One of the best things in the early seasons was the comparions about the realationships, before all those of Philip and Elizabeth, Philip/Clark and Martha, Stan and Nina. Many have here compared the first and the second, but also comparing the second and the third is interesting.

Martha is an open book to Philip and us whereas Stan also afterwards believes that Nina was completely honest towards him and we cvan never anticipate her decisions . Martha is at first horrified about Gene's murder but then accepts it as she accepts anything for the sake of love whereas Nina confesses her treason to Arkady after she realizes Stan has murdered Vlad although her confession could have ger her executed. So any defence that Martha couldn't inform on Clark as it would have been dangerous to her is pointless: she deliberately chose love even after she realized that it meant treason.

One of the problems on S5 is that although the writers evidently wanted to connect P&E and Oleg in Moscow with common theme "food stuff problems of the USSR", Oleg had no love life and P&E's honeytrapping and well as the fate of Morozovs were so uninteresting.      

[CherithCutestory]

On 12/25/2018 at 3:52 AM, Roseanna said:

It's one of my favorite scenes also because it shows what a pro Elizabeth is: she keeps her role as "Jennifer" whereas Paige screamed "mum".   

I love this scene too. But I'm not sure Elizabeth was much of a pro in it. No sister this side of Westeros would react to that confession by asking "what do you mean?" That should be a "woah, way too much information" reaction. Elizabeth was curious. Jennifer should have been horrified.  

I mean only a total weirdo would ever bring it up with their husband's sister in the first place. But Martha was drunk and doesn't seem to have many friends so she doesn't totally know how to act around people.  Elizabeth, on the other hand, is a pro and usually pretty good at reacting in character. Not as good as Philip at that but pretty good. 

Absolutely one of the best scenes. But Elizabeth slipped there. And someone sharper than Martha might have caught that. 

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Martha is at first horrified about Gene's murder but then accepts it as she accepts anything for the sake of love whereas Nina confesses her treason to Arkady after she realizes Stan has murdered Vlad although her confession could have ger her executed. So any defence that Martha couldn't inform on Clark as it would have been dangerous to her is pointless: she deliberately chose love even after she realized that it meant treason.

 

Absolutely this! I had zero respect or pity for Martha by the end. We've seen the other characters really struggle with what the greater good and what sacrifice is worth it.  Nina as you say. Stan is willing to confess to murder of Vlad (which would have ruined him even as it brought down everyone else) to save Oleg because it was right. Philip is willing to choose his country over love. Elizabeth is willing to blow up her whole world (and the little bubble she had with Claudia and Paige) when she realizes it's the only right choice. 

Martha struggled with the Gene murder for about five seconds. And then was 100% for Philip/Clark. She was ultimately such a selfish character. The others are very selfish too in their own ways especially Philip and Elizabeth (and of them especially Elizabeth.) But they do struggle with the consequences of their actions and they do care about the world. 

To be clear, I think Martha was a fantastic character. Very well acted. I think everything played out very true to who she was. More clever than most people would have thought but very small-picture when almost everyone else is big picture. I'm in no way insulting the writing or the acting when it comes to her arc. 

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

One of the problems on S5 is that although the writers evidently wanted to connect P&E and Oleg in Moscow with common theme "food stuff problems of the USSR", Oleg had no love life and P&E's honeytrapping and well as the fate of Morozovs were so uninteresting.      

The characters were ultimately a complete waste of screen time. And way too much time was spent on the Gorp dude especially. But, compared to other honeypots not other moments, Season 5 honeypots are some of my favorites. I absolutely love that Philip is trying to win over the anti-Martha in Deirdre who is just Not Impressed. Yeah she's always lived alone and doesn't have many bowls and he's not getting one! I love Elizabeth trying and failing not to like someone who is like a parody of Philip on EST, which is a version of Philip that she claims annoys the hell out of her (even before she learns he's trying to save the world and is genuinely impressed.) I love Elizabeth being disappointed knowing he was playing around. The two are usually so implausibly good at this (as they point out to each other in Season 5, both are very attractive but, come on, they'd get shot down a lot more than they do.) I love that in Season 5 they strike out a bit. They both get their targets but the targets aren't all about them. 

Plus, I love Liz showing Philip Tai Chi in the bedroom at home. She always picks stuff up from her marks and gets enthusiastic about them. Korean food (and her being excited to tell Paige about this weird tofu thing), drawing, Tai Chi. 

The way they just ended with no follow-up showed how useless they were as plots. I definitely didn't need as much time as they spent on it. But I'm all for seeing Philip and Elizabeth struggle to keep the interest of their marks. And struggling with even wanting to keep the interest of their marks. It was a nice palate cleanser after the intensity of Martha. 

Edited December 27, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Martha is an open book to Philip and us whereas Stan also afterwards believes that Nina was completely honest towards him and we cvan never anticipate her decisions . Martha is at first horrified about Gene's murder but then accepts it as she accepts anything for the sake of love whereas Nina confesses her treason to Arkady after she realizes Stan has murdered Vlad although her confession could have ger her executed. So any defence that Martha couldn't inform on Clark as it would have been dangerous to her is pointless: she deliberately chose love even after she realized that it meant treason.

This made me think of another comparison with Martha because of the discussions on the other thread. When Martha accepts things for the sake of love, she often knows she's doing it for love of someone she doesn't know. Alison Wright once compared Martha to the wife of I think the Green River Killer, a serial killer. She said his wife once said that she loved her husband and hated the man who took him away--that second man also being her husband. Iow, finding out her husband was a serial killer sort of took her husband away. She didn't know this other guy, the serial killer. But she also didn't, afaik, cover for that guy.

In Martha's case, we know that she sticks with Clark after the revelation he's not Walter Taffet. (I suspect she had doubts before that, but that's the moment where she has to face them.) At that point you have to wonder who she thinks he is. Does she imagine that he used to commit evil acts without problem but meeting her made him love for the first time? Is she just okay with the idea that the man she loves is a killer? I mean, there's two times with Martha where she reveals (or finally admits) that she knows more about Clark than we thought she did. (She's like the opposite of Paige who sometimes reveals she understands less--those two might make an interesting comparison. Martha's in denial, but her denial seems very thin. Paige demands the truth, but her truth seems equally thin sometimes.) The moment where she says she knows he wears a toupee and, of course, the moment where she asks what his real name is and knows it's not Philip. The gap between Clark Westerfield, US bureaucrat, and Mikhail the KGB spy and partner of Jennifer is huge, so when Martha accepts things or the sake of love, it doesn't mean the same thing as it would mean if we were talking about Philip and Elizabeth. As was said recently, Philip seems to know exactly how nuts Elizabeth is and while it doesn't make him abandon her, he does have limits for what he'll do for the sake of his love for her.

1 minute ago, CherithCutestory said:

Absolutely one of the best scenes. But Elizabeth slipped there. And someone sharper than Martha might have caught that. 

That probably plays into Martha's later demand to Jennifer when she asks if she's sleeping with her (Martha's) husband. Wonder if it unconsciously as at play in the earlier scene.

[Roseanna]

I like the concept of this show that both sides believe that they are only defending themselves against the other side who wants to destroy them. Bolth sides say that people of the other side are monsters and don't play according to the rules. (Gaad even called the other side "animals", that is he dehumanized them.)   

Also, I like how easily one can make a false interpretation about the aims of the other side, like when Amador's murder was regarded as deliberate. Of course it all began the KGB decision to murder US scientists. As Claudia understand (she wasn't a hardliner in this case but a realist), it was a stupid move for then nobody was safe. A perfect example of escalation when one only reacts on events, without thinking what the goal is and how one can reach it.