S31.E39: Don't Scream (Kristopher Ertmann/Tiffany Mead)

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

A young mom calls 911 claiming she cut her own throat in front of her ex-husband and child. Doctors say there is no way she did it to her self.

[Ohmo]

When Tiffany said that Kris kept telling her to come alone, I'm like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  Don't do that!  I hope Kris's ass stays in jail, and Captain Davis is awesome!

[LittleIggy]

16 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

When Tiffany said that Kris kept telling her to come alone, I'm like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 

No, kidding. If he wouldn’t meet her at the local police precinct, she should have said no. I’m in favor of gun control laws, but Tiffany needs to buy a pistol and learn how to use it. Take martial arts classes, too.

Edited May 6, 2018 by LittleIggy

[ridethemaverick]

11 hours ago, Ohmo said:

When Tiffany said that Kris kept telling her to come alone, I'm like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  Don't do that!  I hope Kris's ass stays in jail, and Captain Davis is awesome!

Do you think she is partly to blame for what happened? I'm asking because I know how you feel about that kind of thing from the dateline thread. 

[Ohmo]

Yes, and since we're going there, I think we've gone too far the other way.  I understand that it is important to support victims of horrific events, but I think in trying to do that, we have not reminded/enabled people that there are things that they can do to make themselves less of a target.  People say, "Well, the so-and so shouldn't have murdered, raped, etc."  Absolutely true, but we don't live in a world that has no crime.  It can't just be that no crime should exist.  It is not possible to foresee everything.  For example, that poor woman in the Southwest plane couldn't have foreseen what happened to her.  However, for the things that are well-known, like "don't meet your ex in a dark parking lot at night alone," don't drink too much (or even go to a frat party" or "don't drive through standing water," people say those things for a reason...because they are things that you can do to prevent yourself from being harmed.  They are not a guarantee of safety, but at least you have done everything that you know how to do to protect yourself.

I know it's unpopular to "blame the victim" and I don't think of it that way.  I disagree with the notion of acting like a crime is solely based on someone doing something to someone else.  Crimes do happen because people often forget to think about themselves.  I think not talking about both sides of the situation because we don't want to "blame the victim" makes it too easy for people to forget that there are things that they can do to reduce the chances of becoming a victim.  Tiffany was a victim because of what Kris did to her but also because of where she placed herself.  Going forward, she will likely never do that again, but it took this horrific act for her to learn that.  Warnings are designed to prevent situations like what happened.  It can't just be about the cops coming to save you.  You also have to be willing to take some responsibility for yourself.

As was said in the Dateline thread (not by you, but by someone), it's can't be as simplistic as "blaming the victim."  I actually agree with that, but I also feel that the victim's decisions have to be part of the conversation and we can't continue to act like those decisions don't matter.  It needs to be a broader conversation that includes the fact that criminals should indeed be punished for crimes AND that people need to be encouraged to be agents for themselves.  That type of questioning or wondering about why more people don't do that is now seen as "victim blaming." and I think that's unfair, negative, and hostile.   Encouraging people to listen and make different choices so they aren't victims of crimes to begin with should not be seen as a bad thing.  I understand the desire to be supportive, but I think there has to be some way to gently and respectfully encourage people to listen and not do risky things which are known over and over again to produce negative outcomes.  If we can't get more people to think of themselves to begin with, crimes like these are going to keep happening.

We're going to disagree, and that's fine, but this is how I feel.

[patty1h]

The ego on this guy!  He must think he looks like a movie star when he looks in the mirror, a dreamboat that no woman would walk away from.  I see a chinless shlub that had to resort to attempted murder to get a woman to stay with him.  Here's how he planned out "wooing her back":  call under the guise of giving her money for the children, but instead, slit her throat for having the nerve to leave him.  Then, after she tells him that she loves him/she'll come back to him,  allow her to call 911 while gushing blood as their son watches.  Also, lie that you tried to kill yourself.   So, if it all worked out like this maniac wanted, she can go get her wounds patched up, then they can live together as a family again, like he didn't try kill her. 

His ego is still out of control, seeing that he takes no responsibility for his landing in jail.   Instead of doing his time, he thinks that SHE needs to die for telling what really happened that horrible night.  I wonder if his parents got in trouble too, as they seemed to be aware that when he was calling from jail, he was trying to contact people on the outside to do her harm.  He needs a kick in the balls with steel-toed boots.

[ari333]

How the hell is almost cutting someone's head off (their words) NOT attempted murder, but assault? WUT? When someone who does not love me says, "Come alone" i take that as a red flag to not go at all or take adults and weapons with me. I am not blaming her bc she probably thought the father of her children was not INSANE.

She is lucky that she is alive. That was a lucky cut. Well, not lucky, but lucky it didn't kill her

[tobeannounced]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Yes, and since we're going there, I think we've gone too far the other way.  I understand that it is important to support victims of horrific events, but I think in trying to do that, we have not reminded/enabled people that there are things that they can do to make themselves less of a target.  People say, "Well, the so-and so shouldn't have murdered, raped, etc."  Absolutely true, but we don't live in a world that has no crime.  It can't just be that no crime should exist.  It is not possible to foresee everything.  For example, that poor woman in the Southwest plane couldn't have foreseen what happened to her.  However, for the things that are well-known, like "don't meet your ex in a dark parking lot at night alone," don't drink too much (or even go to a frat party" or "don't drive through standing water," people say those things for a reason...because they are things that you can do to prevent yourself from being harmed.  They are not a guarantee of safety, but at least you have done everything that you know how to do to protect yourself.

I know it's unpopular to "blame the victim" and I don't think of it that way.  I disagree with the notion of acting like a crime is solely based on someone doing something to someone else.  Crimes do happen because people often forget to think about themselves.  I think not talking about both sides of the situation because we don't want to "blame the victim" makes it too easy for people to forget that there are things that they can do to reduce the chances of becoming a victim.  Tiffany was a victim because of what Kris did to her but also because of where she placed herself.  Going forward, she will likely never do that again, but it took this horrific act for her to learn that.  Warnings are designed to prevent situations like what happened.  It can't just be about the cops coming to save you.  You also have to be willing to take some responsibility for yourself.

As was said in the Dateline thread (not by you, but by someone), it's can't be as simplistic as "blaming the victim."  I actually agree with that, but I also feel that the victim's decisions have to be part of the conversation and we can't continue to act like those decisions don't matter.  It needs to be a broader conversation that includes the fact that criminals should indeed be punished for crimes AND that people need to be encouraged to be agents for themselves.  That type of questioning or wondering about why more people don't do that is now seen as "victim blaming." and I think that's unfair, negative, and hostile.   Encouraging people to listen and make different choices so they aren't victims of crimes to begin with should not be seen as a bad thing.  I understand the desire to be supportive, but I think there has to be some way to gently and respectfully encourage people to listen and not do risky things which are known over and over again to produce negative outcomes.  If we can't get more people to think of themselves to begin with, crimes like these are going to keep happening.

We're going to disagree, and that's fine, but this is how I feel.

I get what you're saying, Ohmo, and I agree, but there seems to be this idea in society more and more that if you're not 100 percent for, you're 100 percent against. People do have the ability to sympathize with the victim but also realize the victim may have put themselves in more danger than necessary and it can be a lesson to others if we talk about it in a respectful way.

[ridethemaverick]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Yes, and since we're going there, I think we've gone too far the other way.  I understand that it is important to support victims of horrific events, but I think in trying to do that, we have not reminded/enabled people that there are things that they can do to make themselves less of a target.  People say, "Well, the so-and so shouldn't have murdered, raped, etc."  Absolutely true, but we don't live in a world that has no crime.  It can't just be that no crime should exist.  It is not possible to foresee everything.  For example, that poor woman in the Southwest plane couldn't have foreseen what happened to her.  However, for the things that are well-known, like "don't meet your ex in a dark parking lot at night alone," don't drink too much (or even go to a frat party" or "don't drive through standing water," people say those things for a reason...because they are things that you can do to prevent yourself from being harmed.  They are not a guarantee of safety, but at least you have done everything that you know how to do to protect yourself.

I know it's unpopular to "blame the victim" and I don't think of it that way.  I disagree with the notion of acting like a crime is solely based on someone doing something to someone else.  Crimes do happen because people often forget to think about themselves.  I think not talking about both sides of the situation because we don't want to "blame the victim" makes it too easy for people to forget that there are things that they can do to reduce the chances of becoming a victim.  Tiffany was a victim because of what Kris did to her but also because of where she placed herself.  Going forward, she will likely never do that again, but it took this horrific act for her to learn that.  Warnings are designed to prevent situations like what happened.  It can't just be about the cops coming to save you.  You also have to be willing to take some responsibility for yourself.

As was said in the Dateline thread (not by you, but by someone), it's can't be as simplistic as "blaming the victim."  I actually agree with that, but I also feel that the victim's decisions have to be part of the conversation and we can't continue to act like those decisions don't matter.  It needs to be a broader conversation that includes the fact that criminals should indeed be punished for crimes AND that people need to be encouraged to be agents for themselves.  That type of questioning or wondering about why more people don't do that is now seen as "victim blaming." and I think that's unfair, negative, and hostile.   Encouraging people to listen and make different choices so they aren't victims of crimes to begin with should not be seen as a bad thing.  I understand the desire to be supportive, but I think there has to be some way to gently and respectfully encourage people to listen and not do risky things which are known over and over again to produce negative outcomes.  If we can't get more people to think of themselves to begin with, crimes like these are going to keep happening.

We're going to disagree, and that's fine, but this is how I feel.

I understand what you're saying and agree that it's hard to talk about these things because the kneejerk response is so strong. I know I always roll my eyes at people who don't lock their doors but I keep my mouth shut because no good comes from trying to convince them otherwise. It always ends with them refusing to live in fear like me LOL.

When I heard "he told me to come alone" I thought about the dateline discussion because for me, that would have been a red flag and a flashing neon sign to do the exact opposite, or not meet him at all. Now, I will say I don't think this guy would have ever stopped trying to kill her but that particular situation absolutely could have been avoided.

Edited May 6, 2018 by ridethemaverick

[ari333]

What stuns me is this guy thought he'd slit her throat and she'd say, "oh NOW I'll come back to you." And never be able to trust him or shut both eyes again ever or leave a child in a room with him. And above posters are right. If she had not gone to this particular horror meeting, he likely would not have stopped at that. Well, clearly , he did not -- hence the undercover hitman etc.

[Steph J]

3 hours ago, ari333 said:

What stuns me is this guy thought he'd slit her throat and she'd say, "oh NOW I'll come back to you." And never be able to trust him or shut both eyes again ever or leave a child in a room with him. And above posters are right. If she had not gone to this particular horror meeting, he likely would not have stopped at that. Well, clearly , he did not -- hence the undercover hitman etc.

What stuns me is that he thought he'd get away with it even though he made her call 911.  I get that he did it so that she would be recorded saying that she attempted suicide, but seriously.  It doesn't at any point occur to him that his wife calling 911 with blood gushing out of her throat is going to seem a bit suspicious when he's also right there, perfectly capable of calling himself?  And this is to say nothing of her having to drive herself, steering with one hand while putting pressure to the wound with the other.  Talk about red flags all over the place.

[ari333]

10 hours ago, Steph J said:

What stuns me is that he thought he'd get away with it even though he made her call 911.  I get that he did it so that she would be recorded saying that she attempted suicide, but seriously.  It doesn't at any point occur to him that his wife calling 911 with blood gushing out of her throat is going to seem a bit suspicious when he's also right there, perfectly capable of calling himself?  And this is to say nothing of her having to drive herself, steering with one hand while putting pressure to the wound with the other.  Talk about red flags all over the place.

YES! And he was very slow to put any shirt (if at all?) to cover the wound.

[Lovecat]

4 hours ago, ari333 said:

YES! And he was very slow to put any shirt (if at all?) to cover the wound.

He actually seemed kind of appalled when the 911 operator suggested he use his shirt.