S06.E06: Rififi

[RedHawk]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:05 AM, MaryPatShelby said:

I lived in the DC area in '81-'82, and worked in Vienna, to which I had to drive from my home in Falls Church.  In this ep the subway announcement mentioned the Vienna/Fairfax stop - did the subway really go to Vienna by 1987?  I know I could probably look that up myself, but I like to engage with online people sometimes!  Anyone know?

Metro did go to Vienna by 1987 although it had not been opened long and was not called "Vienna/Fairfax" until years later so if the announcer said that it was a mistake. According to Wikipedia, ground was broken for the station on September 8, 1982, and service began there on June 7, 1986. It was the terminal stop at that time. I didn't live in DC then but traveled often from farther out in Virginia using highway I-66. Feel pretty sure I saw the station being built in those years and then remember it opening when I lived here in 1986.

Edited May 16, 2018 by RedHawk

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:07 AM, jjj said:

Stan's Thanksgiving, uh, "toast" had so many anvils for so many people at the table.

It was funny that Elizabeth and Stan, although representing different sides, think just in the same way: it's the other side that attacks us and wants to destroy our way of life, we are only defending our country. 

[Clanstarling]

28 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It was funny that Elizabeth and Stan, although representing different sides, think just in the same way: it's the other side that attacks us and wants to destroy our way of life, we are only defending our country. 

Great point. There is no subtlety in their thinking, no acknowledgement of the faults of their respective countries, at least not enough to move them from their center. It is a very human position, flawed, but not rare. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 6:30 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I disagree completely about a lot of people’s interpretation of Paige.   She was younger then Henry is now when she found out that her parents are Soviet Spies.  If they told her literally anything else (even taking into account all of the Pastor Tim stuff) Paige probably would have gotten upset but eventually moved past it.  She was a kid and even religious ones do move on.  She probably would have too if dad had been cheating on mom with a woman named Martha or mom had a drug problem.   I think it would have thrown her but not stunted her for life.  She probably would have thrown herself into her religion and maybe been just a religious adult.  

Finding out mom and dad were Soviet spies who were hell bent on recruiting her was verging on abuse (I thing Pastor Tim even wrote as much in his diary).  It put her in conflict but gave her no emotional stability.  Paige isn’t stupid but she isn’t particularly emotionally stable either.  People have commented on her lack of interest in researching Russia but I don’t think she has any real insentive to.  The exact opposite.  Every time she has shown interest or initiative in anything she has been chastised harshly.  I think Paige is doomed not because of her personality or any character flaw but because her parents were so laser  focused on her.

 

On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:20 PM, sistermagpie said:

Though they weren't hell bent on recruiting her. Her mother eventually was, her father father still isn't. He's tried to throw her several life lines but she doesn't want them. I doubt Paige even realizes now that Elizabeth always wanted to recruit her. She seems to have a personality that craves recruitment. And also her mother's approval. Or she wants to compete with her or something. Honestly I think Paige's life would be dominated by her screwed up relationship with her mother even if she wasn't a Soviet spy. 

This seems to be the way Paige sees it but it's part of what makes her so frustrating and unsuitable as a spy, that she can't follow the most basic logic about spying. The times Paige shows initiative are always about Paige doing something that makes Paige feel cool but risks exposure at most and is unnecessary at least. This started when she started asking to "spy" on Matthew and her parents said no, if you want to see him see him, but don't do it for us or spy on him. And Paige was for some reason incapable of understanding how it was necessary to report on the Tims but not on Matthew. It's really not that difficult. She still can't follow this basic logic, seemingly because she still sees the whole thing as defined by what she does instead of any larger picture that involves anyone else. 

None of this applies to Paige reading about Russia, which she could have started doing long before she was recruited. She's betraying her country for a place she doesn't know or understand. There's only so much one can blame other people for that. She's surrounded by ways to get information about this. She seems to have made a decision to only listen to her mother and Claudia.

I don't think that learning The Secret destroyed Paige and took way her ability to independence. Paige still could have reacted in a different way she did. Or at least she could have if she had had a different character. 

A different teenager would have learnt all about the Soviet Union and would formed made her her own opinions. And she would kept them even when her Mom would have disgreed. 

On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:27 PM, hellmouse said:

Interesting ideas about Paige. I wonder if she would have been satisfied with any answer. It seemed like she didn't just want an explanation, she wanted to know everything. It wasn't enough to know that her parents were spies. if they said they were working, she had to know what they were working on. If they said what they were working on, she needed updates. She was an anxious, insecure child who thought that having more information would make her feel better.  Philip & Elizabeth have their own feelings about it (wanting to share their history, wanting to protect their daughter from the Centre, etc) and they take a gamble that sharing more information is the way to go. But it backfires. She wasn't ready. Rather than responding to a needy child by reinforcing boundaries, they removed boundaries. But all that did was to increase her anxiety and neediness.

I have always thought that it was stupid from Elizabeth to give Paige any details about her and Philip's work. It's against the basic rule of spionage (and conspiracy): never tell anything to anybody who doesn't need to know for her work, so that she can't reveal them and endanger others if she will be caught and interrogated.  

On ‎3‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 11:43 PM, Umbelina said:

The illegal didn't flip.  One of the KGB undercover Intelligence Officers (like Phil and Liz) recruited an agent (like a Martha.)  The FBI did their due diligence, found him, and he "broke in 5 minutes" telling him about the lover he'd shared intel with (the "Philip" of Chicago.)  The FBI is now following the Chicago KGB guy, watching and learning the trade craft used, where the cars are, how they were purchased, whom he meets with, all of it.  That has given them clues to busting other illegals in other cities.  The DC FBI knows they have illegals, so they will use all that to try to find their own in DC.  

- - -

As @sistermagpie said, it's not unrelated at all, Elizabeth's actions helped this happen.  However, I'd also like to say that it seems VERY realistic to me, that's how the FBI works, find a crack, follow it, detail by detail, until they blow a case open.  The priest is one of those details.

Actually FBI has had many such details before, but for some reason they haven't followed them.

But Nina made an important comment to Stan: as a cop, he wants to catch the spies whereas a counter-spy wants to turn them and use them as double-agents.    

On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 2:24 AM, Erin9 said:

I don’t see Philip going against his country. He’s doing this FOR his country. That’s why he’s helping Oleg. But he is risking everything for it. I doubt that is a concept Henry understands though.  Henry doesn’t seem passionate about much except getting ahead in the world. 

I understood why Aderholt made his blanket statement about the Russians lying and cheating their way through the Summit. But I still wanted to throw something at my TV- since Oleg, Philip and Arkady are risking everything to try and make it a success. 

Aderholt doesn't know what we know. 

On ‎4‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:22 PM, JFParnell said:

Elizabeth's response to Philip about killing the hockey player and his wife was absolutely chilling, even by Elizabeth's standards. NO feeling about it at all. She was just like, "What? Kid was in the next room. Why so pissy, Philip? We have any leftovers? Long night. I'm hungry." She might just as well have replied, "Oopsie. Sorry, kid. My bad." (Although I don't think "my bad" was in play yet in 1987..??)

 

On ‎7‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 7:56 AM, Darrenbrett said:

4.) With all the killings Elizabeth has committed, while she's not NEARLY as self-reflective as Philip -- obviously -- I still would have liked -- and still hope for (perhaps in vain) -- something equivalent to a  sleepless night or a traumatic recall for her around all she's done; re:the human cost for her cause, beloved though it may be. I mean, just in terms of writing, that would make her character more relatable and human. I don't expect her to do a 180, but some visible turmoil would be nice; beyond the chronic tiredness and nicotine addiction. Human beings, in real life, are complex. Lately she's been portrayed as a little too one-dimensional for me; and something's been lost a little, in terms of her relatability. What made her character dynamic for me was the internal conflict. I want much more of that in the final episodes.

Well, this is in 1987. There were any therapy sessions to cops who had killed people, or was there already in the US?  

 

On ‎9‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 4:12 PM, anonymiss said:

I think that is intentional and makes sense because their work is doubly dehumanizing now that she's doing it all herself (and training a petulant liability of a daughter doesn't help). She isn't carrying on like a typical relateable person because she isn't. But she is still human and Keri does portray her internal conflict in a skillful nuanced way true to her hardened character. In order to be what she is, she has to believe the ends justify the means and she is conditioned to compartmentalize emotions from work. However, we see when the emotions threaten to come out, e.g., when she has to take a moment and collect herself after the double murder to contain the strain registered on her face; when she looks hard at herself in the mirror and gulps before tying the suicide pill around her neck; when she wants to hear from her son because she's scared she may not have the chance again. If she lets herself feel more, she won't be able to perform for her life's mission, so she just keeps smoking as her only release.

Splendid!

On ‎10‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 12:02 AM, Dev F said:

There's also a tendency, I think, to judge Elizabeth by her abilities at their height, and Philip by his lack of game now. But back in the day Philip was extraordinarily good at worming his way into positions of influence, and he's responsible for some of their most valuable assets, including long-term access into both the FBI (Martha) and the CIA (Kimmy), and a willing agent among President Reagan's political advisers (Charles Duluth).

I always thought that season 1 did a fantastic job of illustrating Philip's and Elizabeth's separate but complementary specialties via their main witting assets. Elizabeth had Gregory, a civil rights activist whom she fell in love with and converted to the Communist cause, then trained to serve as her and Philip's main operational asset for surveillance and the like. Philip had Charles Duluth, an already committed Communist, whom he talked into living his entire life as a lie so as to become his and Elizabeth's eyes and ears among their ideological enemies. In other words, Elizabeth is a fiery true believer and a tactical thinker who specializes in the nuts and bolts of espionage operations. Philip is a wily seducer with a strategic mind who specializes in infiltration and psyops. At their peak, they were both pretty brilliant at their respective specialties.

I would have liked to see Philip seducing someone to an "influental agent" without a person even noticing it. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It was funny that Elizabeth and Stan, although representing different sides, think just in the same way: it's the other side that attacks us and wants to destroy our way of life, we are only defending our country. 

 

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Great point. There is no subtlety in their thinking, no acknowledgement of the faults of their respective countries, at least not enough to move them from their center. It is a very human position, flawed, but not rare. 

It's also just so vague and means whatever you want it to mean. It's just a way of saying that whatever you think is good they want to specifically take away, even when it's unclear if the other side even understands what you mean by it. Like "they hate our freedom."

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that learning The Secret destroyed Paige and took way her ability to independence. Paige still could have reacted in a different way she did. Or at least she could have if she had had a different character. 

A different teenager would have learnt all about the Soviet Union and would formed made her her own opinions. And she would kept them even when her Mom would have disgreed. 

Yeah, I think Paige was created very specifically by the show to have a totally unique reaction. And some of the description above just isn't really accurate. She wasn't aggressively recruited in terms of her parents really pressuring her to do this. I would say Elizabeth pressured her, but that was in large part because they were so alike that Paige was vulnerable to exactly what Elizabeth had sold herself. And the only thing Paige could really be said to have been treated harshly about were times when she she was acting like a toddler running out into the street and had to be snatched back sharply. For the most part she was treated pretty indulgently and patiently. Not that her parents were so great at how they handled things, but Paige had as many blow ups at them as they did at her.

The church arc basically showed us that Paige was drawn to the kind of thing Elizabeth was and in season 5 she practically announced that she was ready to dump Pastor Tim and the church for the KGB because it seemed stronger and more capable of taking away her fears. It was a short-sighted decision that came at a cost and eventually would have not taken away her fears, but she was vulnerable to that kind of thinking as a person before the secret.

Edited October 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She wasn't aggressively recruited in terms of her parents really pressuring her to do this. I would say Elizabeth pressured her, but that was in large part because they were so alike that Paige was vulnerable to exactly what Elizabeth had sold herself. And the only thing Paige could really be said to have been treated harshly about were times when she she was acting like a toddler running out into the street and had to be snatched back sharply. For the most part she was treated pretty indulgently and patiently. Not that her parents were so great at how they handled things, but Paige had as many blow ups at them as they did at her.

Ha!

I'd love to know what you honestly think an aggressive recruitment is!

Paige was the victim of a full court press here.  The very "CENTER" of the KGB was in on it.  Gabe was in on it.  Claudia was in on it.  Elizabeth was in on it.  They were ALL "aggressive."

Psychological and emotional pressure were used, and even a sort of blackmail and entrapment were used in the "if you tell anyone we will go to jail."  Love was held out, respect was another motivator, indoctrination happened as well as exaggerated lies about how awful the USA was.  "THEY ARE POISONING OUR WHEAT, TRYING TO STARVE US TO DEATH!"  By the way, that was not corrected when they found out it was bullshit.  Neither was the story about saving the world from biological weapons, when they both realized the weapons they stole were used on civilians and resisters in Afghanistan. 

Paige's recruitment was, if anything, just as bad as Martha's or Kimmy's, or any number of other used and abused recruits of theirs.  The difference for the others was theirs eventually would end, but for Paige, the only way out was to have her parents imprisoned.   I'd argue Paige's was worse and even more aggressive.  They also used guilt and forced Paige to spy on and report back about the Pastors FOR YEARS, which completely broke her spirit.   That essentially isolated her from support, all she now had was her parents, what other options did Paige have but to join?  None.  She couldn't even be honest with her brother, let alone friends, or people she's always enjoyed at the church.

This was a full court press by the KGB, it doesn't get more "aggressive" than that. 

Oh, and while Elizabeth may have been too brainwashed to realize it?  Claudia certainly would have had crystal clear motivation in making sure Paige was included in operations that could lead to her arrest for treason, espionage, accessory to murder, robberies, and all the rest.  That was deliberate, and a tried and true aggressive technique.  Involve them in facing criminal charges themselves, just to be sure they had NO options.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige's recruitment was, if anything, just as bad as Martha's or Kimmy's, or any number of other used and abused recruits of theirs.  The difference for the others was theirs eventually would end, but for Paige, the only way out was to have her parents imprisoned.   I'd argue Paige's was worse and even more aggressive.  They also used guilt and forced Paige to spy on and report back about the Pastors FOR YEARS, which completely broke her spirit.   That essentially isolated her from support, all she now had was her parents, what other options did Paige have but to join?  None.  She couldn't even be honest with her brother, let alone friends, or people she's always enjoyed at the church.

They were very aggressive in making her cover for them yes, that's true. And of course once that happened it wasn't just her parents making her spy on the Tims but the Tims themselves. Pastor Tim started pressing her for details about their work, betrayed her confidence by telling his wife--really the only thing he did that wasn't a logical consequence of her actions was in keeping the secret with her. That was reality leaning on her as much as her parents. I don't consider the situation itself as a recruitment tactic just because it works that way. (She's protecting her life there, not advancing the Soviet Cause.)

But I think there's a difference between seeing all the ways Paige as an individual was brought to this place and saying it's all down to aggressive recruitment tactics. I would count her being told about the wheat as a tactic and Gabriel calling her parents heroes as well, but still the only people I saw encouraging her to put on a knit hat and glasses and sit in cars as a lookout for her mom's murders were Elizabeth and Claudia who presumably she would have been introduced to because she wanted to be a spy like mom. She knows Philip's actively against the idea. She prefers to compete with Elizabeth. If she wants to see herself as a hero and imagines she's doing that, that's her as well as them. "I can't be honest with others so I have to join" is an excuse and a justification as much as a life sentence. If her parents had turned out to be the drug dealers she speculated they were would she have had no other choice but to deal drugs or else have them arrested? (It seems odd to me to call Kimmy a recruit since she never did anything--by that logic Stan was recruited too.)

I understand how for Paige personally all this adds up to her seeing no other possibility--or at least no better possibility, but I think that's what Roseanna was saying, that for Paige, this was what she would do and how she would see it. It's not how any child would automatically end up. Paige already did a dry run of this with Pastor Tim, was already drawn to the idea of being a savior without caring to look too closely at the details, was always worried about being alone but wasn't interested enough in people to be much of a friend so preferred just being in an official community etc.  That doesn't mean that, say, if Henry was the kid who had found out the secret he would have been on board the same way Paige was. Henry wouldn't necessarily have had his spirit broken by spying on someone--and he quite possibly wouldn't have blabbed to them in the first place. Henry wasn't established to have the same issues with honesty that Paige had. I don't think Elizabeth could have successfully recruited Henry to actively work for her. Pastor Tim was another example to Paige of someone who was keeping the secret without working for Elizabeth, but it seems like he was a failed role model because of his doubts (and his dishonesty about his doubts) much like Philip.

There's just no way it doesn't matter how Paige was portrayed as so desperate a joiner, so eager a convert and so insecure a loner so it was all down to forces in the US and Moscow. I think Paige could absolutely become disillusioned with this and leave it for a different Cause just like she did Pastor Tim, in fact. Everything about her behavior to me says that she thinks she has that option. Elizabeth's not exactly keeping her in line even at this point. Paige drives *a lot* of her own recruitment story it seems to me. Maybe that still adds up to aggressive recruitment because she was so uniquely vulnerable and desperate for exactly this, but maybe that is where it comes down to how I would define the term.

Edited October 31, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I understand how for Paige personally all this adds up to her seeing no other possibility--or at least no better possibility, but I think that's what Roseanna was saying, that for Paige, this was what she would do and how she would see it.

Just no.

Elizabeth and the KGB removed ALL options from Paige the moment they decided to groom, recruit, trap, seduce, blackmail, and coerce her.

The only chance she had was Elizabeth, for once in her life, agreeing with Philip, or at least listening to him, and defecting.  Mommie  dearest wouldn't even consider it. At that moment, Paige had all choices completely taken from her.  That is the very definition of a perfect recruitment. 

Aside from that?  As I detailed above, the hit every button on the recruitment playbook, including money, except for sexual seduction.  This was a full on, no holds barred, nail that second generation spy at all costs operation.  There was nothing, even remotely, "gentle" about any of it. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth and the KGB removed ALL options from Paige the moment they decided to groom, recruit, trap, seduce, blackmail, and coerce her.

 

Answering in the Paige thread since it's not really about this ep, but short answer is this is a whole different story conflict than the show ever dramatized.

[Roseanna]

23 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'd love to know what you honestly think an aggressive recruitment is!

The way Stan recruited Nina is a good example of an aggressive recruiment.

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth and the KGB removed ALL options from Paige the moment they decided to groom, recruit, trap, seduce, blackmail, and coerce her.

The only chance she had was Elizabeth, for once in her life, agreeing with Philip, or at least listening to him, and defecting.  Mommie  dearest wouldn't even consider it. At that moment, Paige had all choices completely taken from her.  That is the very definition of a perfect recruitment. 

Aside from that?  As I detailed above, the hit every button on the recruitment playbook, including money, except for sexual seduction.  This was a full on, no holds barred, nail that second generation spy at all costs operation.  There was nothing, even remotely, "gentle" about any of it. 

No, Paige did have third option, besides informing on her parents and becoming a wannabe spy. She could have kept silent about her parents and led her own life faraway, f.ex. studying in California. If she had been forced, she simply could have failed all tests which had shown that she hasn't abilities (which would be true).

It was Paige herself who asked Elizabeth to teach her self-defence after they were attacked in the park area - that was the decisive turning point, and the muggers were hardly Russians who wanted help Paige's recruitment!

[Roseanna]

On ‎30‎.‎10‎.‎2018 at 11:05 PM, Umbelina said:

indoctrination happened as well as exaggerated lies about how awful the USA was.  "THEY ARE POISONING OUR WHEAT, TRYING TO STARVE US TO DEATH!"  By the way, that was not corrected when they found out it was bullshit.  Neither was the story about saving the world from biological weapons, when they both realized the weapons they stole were used on civilians and resisters in Afghanistan. 

Paige lived in the USA, went to school there and had access to all possible information about the USSR. Why would she simply believe in her parents version?

I remember Finnisg youths who in 70ies believed all good in the Soviet Union - but they did so to oppose their parents who had told them that there was nothing good in the USSR and fought against in the WW2.  

The thruth is that Paige, such as we see her now, likes to be a spy in training. 

[Roseanna]

If anybody had no choice, it's Elizabeth who in her childhood evidently had no other persons to teach her another kind of ethics than her Communist mother (f.ex. a religious grandmother showing an example in compassion, or a teacher telling about the classical of Russian literature). She also had a thrauma of her "traitor" father whose action she wants to compensate and therefore, like her mentor once said, her strongerst motivations isn't her convictions but her fear to fail. But, as I have said earlier, an different personality would have reacted in a different way to her father's execution.

Paige has none of Elizabeth's psychological paggage. 

[Umbelina]

Discussed in the Paige thread.

And above, by the way.  Paige had no choices here, at all.  She was expertly handled by the best of the best, on orders from the head of the KGB.  Paige could barely tie her own shoelaces compared to them.

[Armchair Critic]

At this point I just want Stan, Oleg, Philip, and Henry to make it out okay. To hell with Elizabeth, Paige, and Claudia.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

To hell with Elizabeth, Paige, and Claudia.

Those three could be quite insufferable, couldn't they?