Renee: The future is cloudy....

[Umbelina]

I think he confesses to everything.

He knows Paige will eventually fuck up and reveal he was there.

He will NOT allow the FBI to (even possibly) be penetrated again by the KGB.

He really has no choice.  This isn't like Oleg or Nina, or even letting Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige go.  This would be allowing something to happen in the future.  He can't confess that, without confessing all.  He certainly can't count on Paige.  He'll figure all of this out, probably in a day or two, and he will go in and confess.

I honestly can't see Stan logically or morally doing anything else.

[suomi]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I think Stan will find out the truth.  Whatever little things he may have ignored?  Won't be ignored anymore.

Oh, yeah. He will re-live how they met, how quickly she came across as perfect for him in every way, how quickly she insinuated herself into his home, etc. After he's satisfied that he has uncovered the truth she will become the target of misplaced anger when, protected by a well-planned alibi, he gives her two in the chest and one in the head. (Which is what I would do.)

[Plums]

It feels so obvious to me that Renee is a spy, given how much we've seen of her actions that reflect what we've seen in the other long running honey pots P&E engaged in. The only thing I can see that puts a wrench in the idea for me is Gabriel denying it in such an honestly bewildered way when Philip asked him. But then he made sure to qualify that with "well, they may not have told me". I don't know why the Center would care if Philip and Elizabeth knew about her though, such that they'd make an effort to keep them out of the loop of the operation when she lives right across the street. The only thing I can think is that the Center being worried about Philip's loyalties throughout the course of the series is the reason why they didn't want him to know. Maybe she's there to keep an eye on him as well? 

But yeah. Looking back, she meets Stan at the gym in a season that deliberately had Philip honeypot someone by meeting them in a gym, she's basically tailor made for Stan to be attracted to, she moves in with him super quickly after they meet, she encourages him to stay in CI when he says he wants to quit, with the exact type of persuasion Philip used when Martha wanted to transfer out, she doesn't get bothered by him being distant when she's trying to seduce him (with false details! "U of I" and I am never letting it go) and instead needles him for information and happily accepts the vague details he offers her- in fact she never seems to have any problems with him or fights with him at all- she tries to needle information from Aderholt's wife in that dinner, and when she's firmly established in his life as his wife and so above suspicion for asking (much like P&E would play characters who insinuate themselves in the lives of their targets for months if not years in order to be above suspicion when they execute whatever ultimate goal they had in mind) she tells him she wants to work at the FBI. Plus that inscrutable look at the end there that drove me crazy.  

My ultimate speculation is that she's a spy, and that Stan will find out in short order. He doesn't have to give away why he suspected it because no one would blame him for becoming paranoid about everyone in his life and digging into them. I don't think she's a KGB illegal because she wouldn't be able to get an FBI security clearance if she were, but she may have been recruited, or she may be from a different agency.

Mainly though, I want her to be a spy now because if Stan confirms she's a spy, it will also confirm for him that Philip was genuinely trying to look out for him and really did care about him, which I think will help him heal a bit, though obviously nothing will make up for the magnitude of that betrayal. But honestly, self indulgently I want to speculate that Henry will eventually reconcile with his father, and since I see Stan becoming a permanent fixture in Henry's life (honestly, I think Paige's as well), he will still be tied to Philip in some way for the rest of his life, and I'd like them to be able to reach some sort of peace with one another before they die. Renee being a spy will totally help with that, lol. 

[Umbelina]

Gabriel may not have been read in on Renee.

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, Plums said:

It feels so obvious to me that Renee is a spy, given how much we've seen of her actions that reflect what we've seen in the other long running honey pots P&E engaged in. 

Except they're better at it! Sure Clark had logistically reasons that he could never be perfect in quite the way Renee was, but then Martha's version of perfect included problems. Stan's is a woman who's always happy with him.

Anyway, I was just remembering Philip faking a fight with Martha that time and how Jennifer could believably show up and commiserate over him "pulling a Clark." With Renee it would almost be shocking if she suddenly said "no" to something and stopped doing that wrinkle-nose smile.

[Erin9]

IA @Plums. Stan can easily investigate Renee by playing the paranoid card. I can’t believe he’ll really be able to live not knowing. He didn’t like what he found out about Philip, but he dug anyway. I lean towards him checking her out, over simply wrecking the marriage due to paranoia. 

I fully expect Stan to keep his mouth shut about everything that happened in the garage. His lie to Aderholt said it all to me. He made his decision. Henry might eventually find out the truth, simply because of the Paige complication. But I think that’s it. 

I like the idea of him confirming that Renee is a spy helps him realize Philip was being a friend to him. And since I’m going with Henry reconciles with his dad too and Stan will a presence in his life somehow - that’s good all around. 

IA- everything about Renee screams spy. How they met, what she likes- as in Stan’s likes, her desire to work at the FBI, trying to keep him specifically in CI, etc.

Renee never seemed like a real person. But- if she’s trying to be perfect, always agreeable, never overly pushy, never upset- she’s the anti-Sandra. I never thought of the idea that Stan’s perfect woman was one that is always happy with him. But thinking about it- that sounds about right. He sure wasn’t interested in working on the problems Sandra pointedly said they had. Yep- Renee is perfect. 

Her hard look after Stan walked away was so telling too. And I totally trust Philip’s judgment. He held onto that for 3 years. Don’t think he was wrong. 

I think Philip, Elizabeth and Gabriel would have been left out of the loop because they didn’t need to know. 

[Razzberry]

If nothing else Stan should know by now that real women don't wear full makeup to bed and sleep with their mouth shut.

[Umbelina]

Stan's blown.  He knows it.  He'll confess, and either be jailed or kept on long enough to trap Renee, then fired, or allowed to retire to avoid FBI embarrassment. 

Paige knows.  Paige WILL be questioned.  Paige can't lie.  She certainly will not be able to stand up to repeated FBI questioning, she will cave.  

[Plums]

5 hours ago, Razzberry said:

If nothing else Stan should know by now that real women don't wear full makeup to bed and sleep with their mouth shut.

in fairness, everyone in the tv universe sleeps with their mouth shut. but yeah, that full makeup shot of her sleeping felt so deliberate and was such a record scratch. 

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's blown.  He knows it.  He'll confess, and either be jailed or kept on long enough to trap Renee, then fired, or allowed to retire to avoid FBI embarrassment. 

Paige knows.  Paige WILL be questioned.  Paige can't lie.  She certainly will not be able to stand up to repeated FBI questioning, she will cave.  

I get that POV. I just didn’t feel from the tone of the show that prison was in Stan or Paige’s future. I felt their endings would have looked different if that were the case. I know you felt there was no closure, but I felt there was just enough to make some inferences. 

Prior to Paige deciding to stay, I’d agree, she’d be in serious trouble under questioning. But, I view her differently with that decision. She has some of her parents toughness after all. Not nearly as much, but I think it’s there. She wants to stay home, wants to help Henry. No one will be there for Henry if both she and Stan go down for this. It’s a good motivator. 

Now- with a good lawyer that Stan would no doubt help her find- she’ll either shut up entirely or say just enough to cut a deal and move on. But not everything. Paige has some capacity to shut up and lie. Leaving out the fact that Stan ran into them in the garage is easy imo. But I lean towards Paige just shutting up.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Renee never seemed like a real person. But- if she’s trying to be perfect, always agreeable, never overly pushy, never upset- she’s the anti-Sandra. I never thought of the idea that Stan’s perfect woman was one that is always happy with him. But thinking about it- that sounds about right. He sure wasn’t interested in working on the problems Sandra pointedly said they had. Yep- Renee is perfect.

Stan really does need to go to some form of therapy. Because it seems like clearly his idea of the right woman wasn't always so perfect. Sandra wasn't. His story of how they met was that she ran into him and spilled beer on him and laughed. Iow, she surprised him. She had a reaction he wouldn't have had. She made reasonable demands on him. She knew him, even after they were breaking up. She didn't let him get way with half measures.

On the show he's chosen a lot of relationships that are about keeping him satisfied--Nina, Philip and now Renee were all spies or potential spies. He also chose Henry, but Henry was basically the same way in an organic way. He'd screwed up with Matthew, but Henry was the kid who hadn't seen his flaws and he hadn't screwed up with. His most real relationships, really, were Gaad, Aderholdt and Oleg. Those were all men who often told him things he didn't want to hear.

Although we can add Philip to that list, finally, in the end. Philip absolutely *could* have been a friend to Stan--a real friend--if they'd known who each other was. But Philip would have been like Oleg, not Renee. Philip Jennings is always agreeable. Mischa the spy has Opinions. He was chosen by Arkady because he was difficult.

In fact, I just realized, that Philip Jennings the persona is like Renee--always agreeing with Stan and sharing his interests. Mischa is more like Sandra--going to EST and wanting to assert who they really are.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I get that POV. I just didn’t feel from the tone of the show that prison was in Stan or Paige’s future. I felt their endings would have looked different if that were the case. I know you felt there was no closure, but I felt there was just enough to make some inferences. 

Prior to Paige deciding to stay, I’d agree, she’d be in serious trouble under questioning. But, I view her differently with that decision. She has some of her parents toughness after all. Not nearly as much, but I think it’s there. She wants to stay home, wants to help Henry. No one will be there for Henry if both she and Stan go down for this. It’s a good motivator. 

Now- with a good lawyer that Stan would no doubt help her find- she’ll either shut up entirely or say just enough to cut a deal and move on. But not everything. Paige has some capacity to shut up and lie. Leaving out the fact that Stan ran into them in the garage is easy imo. But I lean towards Paige just shutting up.

 

I think they gave us clues too.  Ominous clues.

Stan was OK *maybe, depending on his conscience getting to him* if Paige left with her parents.  This is the FBI.  I don't agree with everything Bannon has said about them, but I certainly agree that Paige will be questioned, and relentlessly, about her parents.  There is not a chance they will let it go, there is not a chance that her "good friend Stan" will be the only one to question her, or frankly, even allowed near her.  His record is pretty damn shaky, and yes, his telling Aderholt he suspected them is in the plus column, just against way too many minus marks.  (Oleg, over involved with Nina, his best friend is KGB, etc.) 

A lawyer's only help to her would be negotiating a immunity deal, but that would be predicated on her promise to spill her guts over and over again about everything she knows.  Also, who is going to pay for this fabulous lawyer?  Stan can't, not without implicating himself further.  The FBI will go over ever step of Paige's life, and certainly every single step of her escape attempt, over and over and over again, good cop, bad cop, the whole deal.  They will not be Paige's "friend."  Aderholt may be one of the good cops.  He will break her the way he broke that Priest, he's her friend, he knows she was trapped, he knows she loves her parents BUT.... he is her only hope and only if she is honest with him.  If that doesn't work (but it will) bad cop will come in and let her know about life in prison for treason.  She will be putty in their hands.

As for Renee?  I really think that is what will really force Stan to come clean, that and knowing that there isn't a chance in hell that Paige will not spill her guts to friendly, caring, expert interrogator, Aderholt, and certainly not to someone playing bad cop and letting her know her life is over, and get used to orange.  Stan allowing another possible KGB infiltration of his office is something he will not be able to stomach.  Better to  come clean and hope for mercy.

Oh, and I absolutely don't think Philip made a mistake about Renee, everything leads to the fact she's not who she says she is, including getting her "favorite, home town, own college football team's" name wrong when she first showed up.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

I think Paige and Stan can both keep quiet. That’s really all they have to do. I realize I’m over simplifying, but that’s it. And Henry truly knows nothing. So using him would be difficult- though not impossible, I’ll concede. Regardless of how exactly it may play out, I just don’t see prison for either of them. We got different feels from the end, but mine was less ominous in that respect. 

If I was truly being realistic- 100%- which this show never was with the FBI- then  both Stan and Aderholt would be completely off the Jennings case. Neither one would be allowed to investigate their friends or their friends kids. Stan still looked involved in the case based on the packing scene. Aderholt clearly wasn’t pulled either. Stan got to break the news to Henry. I’m sure he wasn’t wearing a wire. Didn’t look like the FBI were lying in wait for him. There just wasn’t anything realistic about how that went down to me. But I’m okay with that. It’s TV afterall. 

All Stan has to do with Renee is play on his justifiable paranoia to get an investigation rolling. He doesn’t have to say a word about Philip. 

[Umbelina]

I have no problem with anyone being optimistic, and as I've said, the writers didn't end anything so all opinions are valid.

I'd say my spec about Arkady, Elizabeth, and Philip probably not living long is pessimistic/realistic.

My spec about Paige and the FBI though?  Completely REALISTIC.  She's all they've got, and she can't lie (as we've heard and seen over and over again) and the FBI is in the process of rounding up other illegals.  Paige is their biggest lead.  There is not a chance she won't be questioned.  There is not a chance she would be able to sustain a lie.

My sister was one of Ted Bundy's victims that got away.  She was questioned every day, multiple times a day, by both police and the FBI, for months!  None of us had any idea the guy who forced her into a VW at knife point on her way home from school, and hit the freeway to the mountains was a serial killer, and the subject of a nationwide man hunt.  We honestly didn't know about him until he was finally put on trial and sentenced to die, my sister happened to look up and saw his face--pointed at the screen, went completely white, and said "That's him." 

Paige's parents are KGB spies, embedded spies.  There is simply not a chance in the world she will not be expertly interrogated by many, many, many agents, many, many, many times.  If Aderholt uses the same technique he used on the priest?  She will spill everything.

Poor Renee, we don't give a shit about you Renee, even if this is your thread.  ;~)

[Erin9]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Stan really does need to go to some form of therapy. Because it seems like clearly his idea of the right woman wasn't always so perfect. Sandra wasn't. His story of how they met was that she ran into him and spilled beer on him and laughed. Iow, she surprised him. She had a reaction he wouldn't have had. She made reasonable demands on him. She knew him, even after they were breaking up. She didn't let him get way with half measures.

On the show he's chosen a lot of relationships that are about keeping him satisfied--Nina, Philip and now Renee were all spies or potential spies. He also chose Henry, but Henry was basically the same way in an organic way. He'd screwed up with Matthew, but Henry was the kid who hadn't seen his flaws and he hadn't screwed up with. His most real relationships, really, were Gaad, Aderholdt and Oleg. Those were all men who often told him things he didn't want to hear.

Although we can add Philip to that list, finally, in the end. Philip absolutely *could* have been a friend to Stan--a real friend--if they'd known who each other was. But Philip would have been like Oleg, not Renee. Philip Jennings is always agreeable. Mischa the spy has Opinions. He was chosen by Arkady because he was difficult.

In fact, I just realized, that Philip Jennings the persona is like Renee--always agreeing with Stan and sharing his interests. Mischa is more like Sandra--going to EST and wanting to assert who they really are.

When did Oleg really tell Stan things he didn’t want to hear? I don’t remember. 

I know Gaad did more than anyone. Stan couldn’t have missed his opinion on Stan getting out of Vietnam. Or having an affair. Or constantly pursuing investigations behind his back. Or Gaad doing his duty to put US interests above Nina’s; Stan really didn’t like that. 

Aderholt suggested Nina may have played him. 

I wonder what Philip might have said or done differently with Stan in retrospect had the spy issue not been between them. I’d have to do a re watch of their scenes. (Tough job! Lol) He was real with him about Renee in the end. He did tell him to move on from Sandra. Philip certainly wasn’t going to try and alienate Stan and just say anything he thought. His only misstep was friendship with Sandra. 

I think I might be able to accept the writing for Renee better with the idea that Stan was looking for the perfect woman. So Renee became that woman.  A woman who’d  basically agree with him. Not be pushy.  Be mostly about him. A relationship he didn’t have to WORK AT.  UnlikeMatthew and Sandra. 

[Dev F]

19 hours ago, Plums said:

It feels so obvious to me that Renee is a spy, given how much we've seen of her actions that reflect what we've seen in the other long running honey pots P&E engaged in.

Yep. I'm on Team Definitely a Spy. Every individual suspicious moment can be explained away as something innocuous, but it seems unlikely that an innocent woman would constantly be doing things that could be read either way.

Plus, one of the reasons Renee always seemed so suspicious is because we never learned how much Stan knew about her. Did she bring him home to meet her family? Did she show him old photos or high school yearbooks that verified her backstory? We were never told, so that we could share in Philip's suspicions based on imperfect knowledge of their relationship. But of course Stan knows, and if he wasn't able to immediately dismiss Philip's warning by remembering, say, that time he met her sister or looked at pictures of her at her junior prom, her background must've been even bit as threadbare as we were meant to fear it was.

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

When did Oleg really tell Stan things he didn’t want to hear? I don’t remember. 

I wasn't so much meaning it that Oleg was telling him things like Gaad did, just that Oleg was clearly a guy who had his own interests that didn't always line up with Stan's. With Oleg Stan had to deal with the two of them both sleeping with Nina, with Oleg being loyal to the USSR, Oleg not telling him what he was doing in the US at the end, not giving up the Illegals because he was still loyal and could Stan get that through his thick head? Oleg wasn't somebody Stan went to because he would always get what he wanted, he had to deal with him even when he didn't want to. So he was forced to deal with another very different viewpoint. He really did often think Oleg was an asshole.

49 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I wonder what Philip might have said or done differently with Stan in retrospect had the spy issue not been between them. I’d have to do a re watch of their scenes. (Tough job! Lol) He was real with him about Renee in the end. He did tell him to move on from Sandra. Philip certainly wasn’t going to try and alienate Stan and just say anything he thought. His only misstep was friendship with Sandra. 

It's hard to tell, I think, because even though there's a lot of the real guy in Philip Jennings the real person is very different. There's not enough of Mischa in Philip to know what it would be like to be friends with Mischa. So I think if Stan had known him as his real self, a KGB spy that for some reason he could be friends with (not that this would ever happen) he'd be dealing with a guy who wasn't always being so friendly, who had serious thoughts about justice and the world, who didn't suffer fools gladly, who was very capable and potentially ruthless, who had a dark sense of humor. None of that was in Philip, but I can see Stan getting along with him.

ETA: OMG, I just realized I forgot I didn't actually respond to Umbelina's story because that's terrifying. I'm so glad your sister was okay, but it sounds like a horrible experience even with the happier ending. Wow.

Edited June 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I have no problem with anyone being optimistic, and as I've said, the writers didn't end anything so all opinions are valid.

I'd say my spec about Arkady, Elizabeth, and Philip probably not living long is pessimistic/realistic.

My spec about Paige and the FBI though?  Completely REALISTIC.  She's all they've got, and she can't lie (as we've heard and seen over and over again) and the FBI is in the process of rounding up other illegals.  Paige is their biggest lead.  There is not a chance she won't be questioned.  There is not a chance she would be able to sustain a lie.

My sister was one of Ted Bundy's victims that got away.  She was questioned every day, multiple times a day, by both police and the FBI, for months!  None of us had any idea the guy who forced her into a VW at knife point on her way home from school, and hit the freeway to the mountains was a serial killer, and the subject of a nationwide man hunt.  We honestly didn't know about him until he was finally put on trial and sentenced to die, my sister happened to look up and saw his face--pointed at the screen, went completely white, and said "That's him." 

Paige's parents are KGB spies, embedded spies.  There is simply not a chance in the world she will not be expertly interrogated by many, many, many agents, many, many, many times.  If Aderholt uses the same technique he used on the priest?  She will spill everything.

Poor Renee, we don't give a shit about you Renee, even if this is your thread.  ;~)

Agreed. All opinions are valid. 

The KGB and FBI were never portrayed with total accuracy- not even close- all the way to the end. So- I’m really not going to go there now in my post show spec. This was a show more about people and relationships. So- to me the way forward- just doesn’t include prison or death. Not based on the show or the way they chose to end it. If it was- it would have been handled very differently imo. 

 As I said- I don’t think Aderholt or Stan would realistically be allowed near anything Jennings related, but they were. Very much so.

So for the way this show ran- I’ll optimistically go with Paige keeping quiet or at least staying out of prison. It’s possible. For me, the character issues are - her relationship with Henry, her parents, and what on earth she wants to do with her life now. Seems to fit this show. 

IA- the Jennings/Arkady would still be in danger realistically, but the “feel” I got - getting the message to him would lead to them being safe and all of the leaders rounded up. TV reality. Lol  realistically- someone would probably escape round up and look for revenge on them.  Or-there’d at least be some feeling of continual danger or threat. 

The real question though to me is how they re build their lives. Together, yes, but then what. Death just didn’t feel like part of the equation to me- within this show anyway. 

I can’t think of anything to say about your sister escaping Ted Bundy that won’t sound  like a gross understatement. Thank God she escaped. I just can’t imagine realizing he was “the guy.” I’ve read a few books on him. Horrific is another understatement. 

Lol about Renee!! 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Erin9

[Erin9]

28 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Yep. I'm on Team Definitely a Spy. Every individual suspicious moment can be explained away as something innocuous, but it seems unlikely that an innocent woman would constantly be doing things that could be read either way.

Plus, one of the reasons Renee always seemed so suspicious is because we never learned how much Stan knew about her. Did she bring him home to meet her family? Did she show him old photos or high school yearbooks that verified her backstory? We were never told, so that we could share in Philip's suspicions based on imperfect knowledge of their relationship. But of course Stan knows, and if he wasn't able to immediately dismiss Philip's warning by remembering, say, that time he met her sister or looked at pictures of her at her junior prom, her background must've been even bit as threadbare as we were meant to fear it was.

Excellent point. Stan didn’t dismiss Philip’s suspicions as worthless....because he couldn’t. There was obviously nothing about Renee that easily and definitely told him- it’s not possible. Just like with Philip. 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Excellent point. Stan didn’t dismiss Philip’s suspicions as worthless....because he couldn’t. There was obviously nothing about Renee that easily and definitely told him- it’s not possible. Just like with Philip. 

You almost wonder why he didn't start being suspicious of her on his own or when he started thinking about the Jennings. If he suddenly thinks it's weird they don't have family, how about that Renee...

Of course, it's hard to know just what "one of us" Philip means when he talks about Renee because if she's applying for a job at the FBI she has to be able to pass a background check, right? They can't honestly be trying to suggest that an Illegal--or really anyone living under a fake identity--is just going to happily apply for a job at the FBI, right? That's the whole point of the second gen program. Or did everyone forget about that? There's a reason Clark wasn't going to be using Martha to get a job at the FBI!

Even if she's an American who's working for the KGB she needs to be able to pass a background check.

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie I agree about Oleg and Stan. They had an interesting, complicated relationship. And Oleg certainly had his own agenda. Nice sum up. 

I think Stan and the real Philip would have gotten along. They would have understood each other, I think. But I think that’s one of the reasons Philip liked Stan. He related to him on certain levels that he wouldn’t have with other people. Stan said things that he “got.” And I think Stan probably felt that too- he just didn’t consciously know it. Truth is- Stan and the real Philip were more alike than Stan really knew. 

Yeah-She wouldn’t have been exactly like P/E. But I do think Stan had enough on his plate suspecting Philip to not be able to transfer some of those same thoughts onto Renee- of their parallels. We can’t know what it was, but what Philip said did resonate with Stan. He couldn’t just dismiss the notion of Renee being a spy. If he could have, he would have. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Erin9

[hellmouse]

I doubt that they would really want to talk about it, but I've always thought that Stan and Philip could have an interesting conversation about the desire to exfiltrate a source in order to protect her; encountering resistance from their bosses; and ultimately the decision to do it anyway (Philip) or not do it (Stan). Philip accomplished what Stan wanted to do, even though Stan was the one who was actually in love with the agent he was running. Stan's actions might have been constrained by the fact that it's happening in the US and he therefore is more beholden to the law (although he murdered Vlad so IDK), whereas Philip is operating on enemy soil and so is already breaking the law. He's literally an illegal. Just as in the garage scene, the stakes are higher for Philip because his life is on the line and Stan's isn't. 

To bring it back to Renee, I do find myself thinking that she is a spy. But I wonder if she knew that Philip and Elizabeth were also spies, or if she was in the dark about them as well. She never did anything to overtly help them. Is she surprised to find out that they were KGB? Her look at the house kind of reminded me of Tuan - there was some faint disapproval there, like if they'd done the right things they wouldn't have gotten caught. But I like to think that she's about to be caught too.  

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Of course, it's hard to know just what "one of us" Philip means when he talks about Renee because if she's applying for a job at the FBI she has to be able to pass a background check, right? They can't honestly be trying to suggest that an Illegal--or really anyone living under a fake identity--is just going to happily apply for a job at the FBI, right?

I'm torn between thinking that Renee was actually just using her FBI dream as a pressure tactic with Stan and didn't expect it to move forward -- that's one way of reading her "Did Dennis do this?" surprise when she gets the letter offering her an interview -- and thinking that she's actually an American agent of the KGB who could conceivably pass a background check. In the latter case, the fact that Stan is entertaining Philip's warning is even more interesting, since you'd think a backstory that's good enough to pass an FBI background check would be enough to assuage any suspicion on Stan's part, unless those suspicions are more about Renee's general behavior than her history.

Oh, I forgot one other small data point in favor of Spy Renee. The showrunners have mentioned that originally the final montage in the finale was set to "American Pie" instead of "With or Without You." Based on how everything would have to line up and which parts of the song they would be certain to include, it seems extremely likely that Stan gazing suspiciously at his sleeping wife would've been set to the lines:

I can't remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride
But something touched me deep inside
The day the music died.

That seems to suggest a much more definitive break between Stan and Renee than the ambiguous strains of "With or Without You" necessarily imply. Now, I know that one of the reasons the showrunners didn't go with "American Pie" is because it was a little too on the nose. But it's interesting which direction the on-the-nose version would've likely tilted toward.

53 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

To bring it back to Renee, I do find myself thinking that she is a spy. But I wonder if she knew that Philip and Elizabeth were also spies, or if she was in the dark about them as well. She never did anything to overtly help them.

I think we do see one small moment that could be Renee trying to help the Jenningses. In "Dead Hand," she talks to Aderholt's wife about Stan's one remaining Counterintelligence case even though she knows Elizabeth is within earshot. She seems to be trying to draw out Janine to tell her what she knows about the case, but Janine is more discreet, insisting, "I don't know anything." At one point in the conversation Renee even looks over toward where Liz is standing and then keeps talking.

All of it seems consistent with Renee knowing that Elizabeth is a comrade and wanting to pass her information without exposing herself. And, indeed, the information Liz overhears is what alerts the Centre to the fact that Stan is working with Mr. and Mrs. Teacup. Of course, one has to wonder why Renee wouldn't just pass on the information to her own handlers, but maybe her placement is so hazardous that she tries to avoid direct contact with the Centre if at all possible?

Edited June 5, 2018 by Dev F

[Loandbehold]

On 6/4/2018 at 6:20 PM, Dev F said:

Yep. I'm on Team Definitely a Spy. Every individual suspicious moment can be explained away as something innocuous, but it seems unlikely that an innocent woman would constantly be doing things that could be read either way.

Plus, one of the reasons Renee always seemed so suspicious is because we never learned how much Stan knew about her. Did she bring him home to meet her family? Did she show him old photos or high school yearbooks that verified her backstory? We were never told, so that we could share in Philip's suspicions based on imperfect knowledge of their relationship. But of course Stan knows, and if he wasn't able to immediately dismiss Philip's warning by remembering, say, that time he met her sister or looked at pictures of her at her junior prom, her background must've been even bit as threadbare as we were meant to fear it was.

 

On 6/4/2018 at 7:10 PM, sistermagpie said:

Even if she's an American who's working for the KGB she needs to be able to pass a background check.

 

On 6/4/2018 at 8:06 PM, hellmouse said:

To bring it back to Renee, I do find myself thinking that she is a spy. But I wonder if she knew that Philip and Elizabeth were also spies, or if she was in the dark about them as well. She never did anything to overtly help them. Is she surprised to find out that they were KGB? Her look at the house kind of reminded me of Tuan - there was some faint disapproval there, like if they'd done the right things they wouldn't have gotten caught. But I like to think that she's about to be caught too. 

I also believe that Renee was a spy, but an American agent of the KGB and not an illegal. It would have been too chancy for her to apply for any job w/ the FBI b/c she would need to go through the background check. If she chose to decline the interview, that would be very suspicious given how insistent she was about wanting to work there. And, if she is American, then Stan probably has seen her high school yearbook and maybe even met her parents or a sibling during the three years that they've been together. We just didn't see it, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to meet their spouse's family. Or see pictures and other items (diplomas, raquetball awards, etc.). I don't know if Renee would have been told that P & E were illegals. She would have been placed there to spy on Stan, not report on whether P&E were "behaving suspiciously."

As for Paige and Henry, I believe that both will be interviewed and often by the FBI. Their parents were illegals who likely (as far as Aderholt and the CI division know) escaped to the Soviet Union. The FBI would want to know what, if anything, the kids know. (On a side note, given that Aderholt knows that he was friends w/ them, Stan would also be interviewed. A lot.) As of now, only Stan knows that Paige was aware of who her parents were. He doesn't know the extent of her spy activities. And, while Paige knows her parents were illegals, she only knows a little about what they actually did. She helped watch some people and took some pictures. She knows Claudia and Gabriel, but they're gone. She knows Liz seduced a Sam Nunn intern, but not what info Liz obtained as a result. She knows Liz was in the park when the General died, but she didn't see how it happened. This might prevent Liz from ever coming back into the U.S., but Paige can't say for sure that Liz killed him. Paige doesn't have any knowledge of any other murders committed by Philip and Liz. So, Paige can confess to her actions and the relatively little she knows about what her parents actually did, or she can try to keep quiet. If Stan's not in the room and she takes option 2, Stan might never know it. And, even if he finds out, he then has to choose between coming forward and admitting that he knew Paige was a spy b/c he found out when he let Phil, Liz, and Paige leave the garage w/o arresting them or keeping quiet. He might come forward, but, to protect Henry, he might not.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Loandbehold
To address a point I missed.

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

As for Paige and Henry, I believe that both will be interviewed and often by the FBI. Their parents were illegals who likely (as far as Aderholt and the CI division know) escaped to the Soviet Union. The FBI would want to know what, if anything, the kids know. (On a side note, given that Aderholt knows that he was friends w/ them, Stan would also be interviewed. A lot.) As of now, only Stan knows that Paige was aware of who her parents were. He doesn't know the extent of her spy activities. And, while Paige knows her parents were illegals, she only knows a little about what they actually did. She helped watch some people and took some pictures. She knows Claudia and Gabriel, but they're gone. She knows Liz seduced a Sam Nunn intern, but not what info Liz obtained as a result. She knows Liz was in the park when the General died, but she didn't see how it happened. This might prevent Liz from ever coming back into the U.S., but Paige can't say for sure that Liz killed him. Paige doesn't have any knowledge of any other murders committed by Philip and Liz. So, Paige can confess to her actions and the relatively little she knows about what her parents actually did, or she can try to keep quiet. If Stan's not in the room and she takes option 2, Stan might never know it. And, even if he finds out, he then has to choose between coming forward and admitting that he knew Paige was a spy b/c he found out when he let Phil, Liz, and Paige leave the garage w/o arresting them or keeping quiet. He might come forward, but, to protect Henry, he might not

I don't think Stan has any idea that Paige was involved in actually doing spy activities. All he knows is that they told her they were spies when she was 16. 

But I'm sure Paige will tell him if he asks. 

[Loandbehold]

3 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I don't think Stan has any idea that Paige was involved in actually doing spy activities. All he knows is that they told her they were spies when she was 16. 

But I'm sure Paige will tell him if he asks. 

I wasn't sure about this because he did ask about her and Matthew and if that had anything to do w/ spying. Still, he definitely has no idea that she had been working as a second generation spy for the past few years.

[FormerMod-a1]

The topic here is Renee, not Paige, or Stan, or the general discussions. Each main character has their own thread.  And if you want to discuss relationships growth and arcs we have the Retrospective thread.  If you want to discuss the last episode, we have a thread for that, too.

Thank you.