Renee: The future is cloudy....

[Bannon]

What the hell Renee is doing on this show is now one of its larger mysteries, especially since her bizarre conversation with Stan while cleaning dishes. What's your theory about Renee's future?

Personally, I think she dumps Stan (poor. poor, Stan) after he fails to get her an FBI gig, and her Search for Meaning results in her becoming a devotee of Milli Vanilli,  following them from concert to concert...

Edited April 24, 2018 by Bannon

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

What the hell Renee is doing on this show is now one of its larger mysteries, especially since her bizarre conversation with Stan while cleaning dishes. What's your theory about Renee's future?

Personally, I think she dumps Stan (poor. poor, Stan) after he fails to get her an FBI gig, and her Search for Meaning results in her becoming a devotee of Milli Vanilli,  following them from concert to concert...

Girl you know it's true, I want you...she will be crushed once their lip-sync scandal comes out.

[Umbelina]

IF Renee is in any way a game changer in all of this?  I will probably be seriously pissed off.  Bring her in, hint around that she's not what she seems with Philip suspecting her, reveal nothing along with the rest of the "nothing" season last year, and then have her come in and have a pivotal role?

 

Oh hell no.

[Bannon]

56 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

IF Renee is in any way a game changer in all of this?  I will probably be seriously pissed off.  Bring her in, hint around that she's not what she seems with Philip suspecting her, reveal nothing along with the rest of the "nothing" season last year, and then have her come in and have a pivotal role?

 

Oh hell no.

I wouldn't put it past these writers/producers! Otherwise, did they bother with the expense of hiring an actor with a reasonably prominent resume? Laurie Holden has had almost nothing to do, for what has become a substantial amount of time. I see the deuxciest of machinas hurtling down the tracks!

[sistermagpie]

56 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I wouldn't put it past these writers/producers! Otherwise, did they bother with the expense of hiring an actor with a reasonably prominent resume? Laurie Holden has had almost nothing to do, for what has become a substantial amount of time. I see the deuxciest of machinas hurtling down the tracks!

Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with Philip's suspicion in itself since that could have just been signalling that he was burning out and worried about everyone, seeing everyone he knew as in danger etc. But if that was the case they should probably have established her as normal this season. Don't just skip ahead eight years and have her sitting in Stan's re-decorated home occasionally spouting more strange dialogue. So far this season we've only heard her whispering about the Teacups that she probably shouldn't even know about, much less be so interested in, and floating the idea of joining the FBI so she can do something important like Stan. They make a point of establishing that but the marriage you'll miss if you don't glance at Stan's hand.

Trouble is I can't see the point of her either way. If she's some sort of spy it's ridiculous because who'd create a female Clark to live with a guy that's not even in counterintelligence anymore and didn't tell the Soviets about the Teacups anyway? If she's not a spy...what's the point of her since she's not really a character and we don't understand anything about Stan's marriage except that there's a wife now?

[SusanSunflower]

(not to be a total bore, but the actress may have been available for limited work on a series working with friends or people she admired.  The limited role won't hurt her career and (if she has personal/family "stuff" that needs some regular limited hour) the show provides a great opportunity to be seen. She's gorgeous.  If she's friends with anyone on the show, double plus good ... she's only been about for what 2 seasons?  (IMDB gives her 12 episodes total but, of course, they lie)  

I think the showrunners, rightly, assumed the audience wanted Stan to be paired up and, after his gorgeous ex-wife, anyone other than a stunner would be a "step down" in men's world ... and so Renee may just be a bored wife who thinks that really truly has to be something interesting about Stan and/or  his friends, and Phillip is just a worrywort concerned about all.new.people.   meh.  She could end up a damsel-in-distress without being a kick-ass secret ninja assassin (Sherlock reference) 

I'd add that Langella and Martindale are pretty top of the marque names to be in the sort of limited supporting roles (much bigger than Renee, but varying in centrality -- both "went away" for months at a time ...  I guess I'm just saying sometimes actors are quite happy with limited supporting role when meaty or interesting to them.

Edited April 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with Philip's suspicion in itself since that could have just been signalling that he was burning out and worried about everyone, seeing everyone he knew as in danger etc. But if that was the case they should probably have established her as normal this season. Don't just skip ahead eight years and have her sitting in Stan's re-decorated home occasionally spouting more strange dialogue. So far this season we've only heard her whispering about the Teacups that she probably shouldn't even know about, much less be so interested in, and floating the idea of joining the FBI so she can do something important like Stan. They make a point of establishing that but the marriage you'll miss if you don't glance at Stan's hand.

Trouble is I can't see the point of her either way. If she's some sort of spy it's ridiculous because who'd create a female Clark to live with a guy that's not even in counterintelligence anymore and didn't tell the Soviets about the Teacups anyway? If she's not a spy...what's the point of her since she's not really a character and we don't understand anything about Stan's marriage except that there's a wife now?

She's the recurring character about nothing!

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

(not to be a total bore, but the actress may have been available for limited work on a series working with friends or people she admired.  The limited role won't hurt her career and (if she has personal/family "stuff" that needs some regular limited hour) the show provides a great opportunity to be seen. She's gorgeous.  If she's friends with anyone on the show, double plus good ... she's only been about for what 2 seasons?  (IMDB gives her 12 episodes total but, of course, they lie)  

I think the showrunners, rightly, assumed the audience wanted Stan to be paired up and, after his gorgeous ex-wife, anyone other than a stunner would be a "step down" in men's world ... and so Renee may just be a bored wife who thinks that really truly has to be something interesting about Stan and/or  his friends, and Phillip is just a worrywort concerned about all.new.people.   meh.  She could end up a damsel-in-distress without being a kick-ass secret ninja assassin (Sherlock reference) 

I'd add that Langella and Martindale are pretty top of the marque names to be in the sort of limited supporting roles (much bigger than Renee, but varying in centrality -- both "went away" for months at a time ...  I guess I'm just saying sometimes actors are quite happy with limited supporting role when meaty or interesting to them.

This role is about as meaty as a Twinkie. I'm not criticizing her at all, mind you, but I can't believe she's working for scale, and given what the role has been. I don't know why a very pretty actor, who had not much of a resume, and thus was cheap, was not hired.

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think the showrunners, rightly, assumed the audience wanted Stan to be paired up and,

Did anyone actually want that? I'd be surprised at anyone caring whether he was paired up or not.

I mean, I can see it on paper as making sense. Stan started out alienated from his family, we saw that breakdown, he was a lonely divorced guy, started dating again so yeah, if he's married now it shows he's got that in order again. But then what's weird is it seems like this second marriage, the one he had to work through issues to get to, is far colder than the first marriage was. Stan still seems kind of befuddled to find himself talking to her when she appears in his house and even last season the whole thing seemed arranged by Renee--something broke in her place so she had to "move in" for a while (and never left), she appears at the gym and has all the same interests as Stan, etc. I don't get whether we're supposed to think this is a good marriage or not.

[SusanSunflower]

the role may not be meaty (who knows what was pitched or what will happen next -- she was fascinating, even tantalizing when first introduced and I can't believe she's still with Stan since she was complaining he was "stuck" 3 years ago)  

I suspect that Paige was promised a pivotal important role (eventually, even to "grow into") to sign on for all 5 years or until end of series.  Renee showed up late, had a fascinating first season and then largely became wallpaper as the story was actually woven over the last few seasons.  The intimation that she's a "spy" seem a bit flimsy, possibly projection (based on "why is she with Stan?)  ... It's great exposure.  

eta:  I don't know but I've seen enough miserable divorced cops going to seed, drinking too much and being generally very-angry-azzholes to last a lifetime   Particularly after Nina, I don't think anyone wanted to see Stan follow that path  ... pairing up "like Noah's ark" grounds characters as "well-adjusted" (see, she likes him!!) ... sure, YMMV.    Kyle Secor (Bayliss) on Homicide as well as Reed Diamond (Mike Kellerman) made other dysfunctional cops seem overdone.  Brilliant and unique characters. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

the role may not be meaty (who knows what was pitched or what will happen next -- she was fascinating, even tantalizing when first introduced and I can't believe she's still with Stan since she was complaining he was "stuck" 3 years ago)  

I suspect that Paige was promised a pivotal important role (eventually, even to "grow into") to sign on for all 5 years or until end of series.  Renee showed up late, had a fascinating first season and then largely became wallpaper as the story was actually woven over the last few seasons.  The intimation that she's a "spy" seem a bit flimsy, possibly projection (based on "why is she with Stan?)  ... It's great exposure.  

eta:  I don't know but I've seen enough miserable divorced cops going to seed, drinking too much and being generally very-angry-azzholes to last a lifetime   Particularly after Nina, I don't think anyone wanted to see Stan follow that path  ... pairing up "like Noah's ark" grounds characters as "well-adjusted" (see, she likes him!!) ... sure, YMMV.    Kyle Secor (Bayliss) on Homicide as well as Reed Diamond (Mike Kellerman) made other dysfunctional cops seem overdone.  Brilliant and unique characters. 

I have no issue with giving Stan a happy 2nd marriage. I just can't figure out why they hired Laurie Holden for a role that required so little.

[Erin9]

All I can say is that Erika and Glen’s marriage has more substance and believability right now than Stan and Renee’s. I care about their relationship. And Erika has way more personality than Renee. 

The writers have done a lot with them with very little airtime. Seems to me they could have easily done the same with R\S and Renee herself. Unless Renee being a cardboard character and their marriage seeming a bit off-cold is a good word for it-  is going somewhere. 

Hopefully Renee isn’t one dimensional just for the mystery of it. Compare her to Sandra and the first marriage....well there is none. 

I just hope there is a believable reason for this. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

The writers have done a lot with them with very little airtime. Seems to me they could have easily done the same with R\S and Renee herself. Unless Renee being a cardboard character and their marriage seeming a bit off-cold is a good word for it-  is going somewhere. 

Exactly. It's not that they haven't had plenty of time to write a marriage if they wanted. All they really need is one scene to establish the dynamic here. They chose to use that in a weird scene where Renee babbles on about the Jennings working together and maybe she could work for the FBI. Which kind of links up to the scene at the dinner party where she's again totally interested in the FBI and also gossiping about some other couple.

[Umbelina]

I want her to be nothing, just a wife.

I suspect instead we will get some bullshit last minute surprise.

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

All I can say is that Erika and Glen’s marriage has more substance and believability right now than Stan and Renee’s. I care about their relationship. And Erika has way more personality than Renee. 

The writers have done a lot with them with very little airtime. Seems to me they could have easily done the same with R\S and Renee herself. Unless Renee being a cardboard character and their marriage seeming a bit off-cold is a good word for it-  is going somewhere. 

Hopefully Renee isn’t one dimensional just for the mystery of it. Compare her to Sandra and the first marriage....well there is none. 

I just hope there is a believable reason for this. 

 

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I want her to be nothing, just a wife.

I suspect instead we will get some bullshit last minute surprise.

I am preparing to have a good laugh, and not in a way the writers desire. Who knows? Maybe they'll surprise me.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I want her to be nothing, just a wife.

I suspect instead we will get some bullshit last minute surprise.

Me too on the wife thing. But tbf, the show has never gone the last minute surprise route. There's good reason to think she's just a wife. She could be plenty useful plotwise if they needed her as just a wife.

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Me too on the wife thing. But tbf, the show has never gone the last minute surprise route. There's good reason to think she's just a wife. She could be plenty useful plotwise if they needed her as just a wife.

I hope that's all the character is, but if so, that career conversation in the kitchen is really even more egregiously bad than I originally thought. It was surely designed to play off Phil's years- earlier voiced suspicions about her. If there is nothing there, then the writers have been wasting time with cheap tricks.

[SusanSunflower]

My memory of when we last saw Stan and Renee 3 years ago, Renee thought Stan was stuck ... since then they have (or she has) settled into getting married and being a couple.  That doesn't mean that she's not still rather frustrated with Stan's, what, complacency?  lack of ambition?   To her the Jennings, "working together" may look like a chance in which the wife has the opportunity to influence the husband to be more ambitious, make grand plans (she/they probably know (the good stuff) about the Travel Agency expansion ...  Again, it may just be what it looks like on the surface ... or as I said before, her attempt to find something interesting in Stan's job and friends.   I don't see how or why they would "develop" her character and story line beyond perhaps making her a hostage at this point in the series .... but she might provide Stan with a game changing observation (a watching the Jenning's driveway from her bedroom window at night sort of  "clue". The idea of her "minding" Stan for one side of the other or a third party was "fun", but who really is going to be caring a lot about Stan 3 years down the line ... ?? 

[Ellaria]

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

I wouldn't put it past these writers/producers! Otherwise, did they bother with the expense of hiring an actor with a reasonably prominent resume? Laurie Holden has had almost nothing to do, for what has become a substantial amount of time. I see the deuxciest of machinas hurtling down the tracks!

It seems that we are faced with two possibilities: 1) They hired Laurie Holden, made her Stan's love interest (OK, that's fine) and gave her nothing of interest to do while creating a faux mystery around the character 2) Hired Laurie Holden, had her pretend to fall in love with Stan while doing secret spy work that will have an impact on the end game.

Either one of these sound like terrible choices by the writers yet this is basically what we are choosing between. I cannot believe that she will prove to be important in any way. There are 5 - 6 hours left of this show. There should not be any "cheap tricks" as @Bannon says.

 

8 hours ago, Erin9 said:

All I can say is that Erika and Glen’s marriage has more substance and believability right now than Stan and Renee’s. I care about their relationship. And Erika has way more personality than Renee. 

The writers have done a lot with them with very little airtime. Seems to me they could have easily done the same with R\S and Renee herself.

This! 

[Erin9]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I want her to be nothing, just a wife.

I suspect instead we will get some bullshit last minute surprise.

Part of me thinks that makes more sense, but I sure would like there to be some explanation on why Renee and S/R have no substance. Especially on a show where it is all about marriage. 

[SusanSunflower]

I have suspected that Elizabeth's hair-trigger and rising paranoia could lead to some critical impulsive killing ... Renee would suit for this scenario.  I was surprised many years ago at what close tabs my neighbor kept on, not only my comings and goings, but everyone else's and that she somehow thought I would have noticed she didn't get home until "very late" a few days earlier.  I put it down to "Once a mom always a mom," but such vigilance might freak out Elizabeth or Renee reporting "odd things" over at the Jennings might perk up Stan's sensors. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I have suspected that Elizabeth's hair-trigger and rising paranoia could lead to some critical impulsive killing ... Renee would suit for this scenario.  I was surprised many years ago at what close tabs my neighbor kept on, not only my comings and goings, but everyone else's and that she somehow thought I would have noticed she didn't get home until "very late" a few days earlier.  I put it down to "Once a mom always a mom," but such vigilance might freak out Elizabeth or Renee reporting "odd things" over at the Jennings might perk up Stan'ss ensors. 

Good grief, I just joked on the new episode thread that Liz might keep her slaughter streak alive by whacking Renee! Now, I think your theory may be viable!

I keep trying to parodize this show, and the writers keep responding with "Hold my beer....".

[SusanSunflower]

I saw your post but didn't want to respond there because it's fairly broad conjecture ... But I had already suggested that Renee on a mid-night bathroom trip might see something "odd" over at the Jennings' setting off Stan's radar.  She also might recognize P&E from the sketches (since they both look older, tireder and more like the sketches. We'll see. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

t seems that we are faced with two possibilities: 1) They hired Laurie Holden, made her Stan's love interest (OK, that's fine) and gave her nothing of interest to do while creating a faux mystery around the character 2) Hired Laurie Holden, had her pretend to fall in love with Stan while doing secret spy work that will have an impact on the end game.

As a nosy wife she could also give Stan some idea just from that. Others have mentioned her noticing some strange comings and goings, for instance, but it might be something else. Basically any reason for him to look at them more closely. Or maybe Stan would already be thinking about something at work and then Renee says something that makes him connect it to the Jennings, even just in a general way, like when William talked about some couple where the woman was pretty (true) and the guy was lucky (uh...debatable).

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

As a nosy wife she could also give Stan some idea just from that. Others have mentioned her noticing some strange comings and goings, for instance, but it might be something else. Basically any reason for him to look at them more closely. Or maybe Stan would already be thinking about something at work and then Renee says something that makes him connect it to the Jennings, even just in a general way, like when William talked about some couple where the woman was pretty (true) and the guy was lucky (uh...debatable).

That strikes me as "not great writing" also. Stan - the super counter intelligence guy - gets clued in to shady goings-on on his neighbor/BFF's house by his new wife.

However, this is probably exactly how it is going to happen.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Ellaria Sand said:

That strikes me as "not great writing" also. Stan - the super counter intelligence guy - gets clued in to shady goings-on on his neighbor/BFF's house by his new wife.

 

TBF, it worked well with Martha when she clued him into the Connors by mentioning they were killed the same weekend as the big meeting of whatever it was. I remember at the time some people tried to credit Martha with figuring it out somehow but it was really just her always remembering the date because she was doing administrative stuff for the meeting at the same time so they were linked in her mind. That's what made Stan check to see if they could be related. 

[Ellaria]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, it worked well with Martha when she clued him into the Connors by mentioning they were killed the same weekend as the big meeting of whatever it was. I remember at the time some people tried to credit Martha with figuring it out somehow but it was really just her always remembering the date because she was doing administrative stuff for the meeting at the same time so they were linked in her mind. That's what made Stan check to see if they could be related. 

And that's precisely the reason why they shouldn't keep doing it. "Let's have every other woman that Stan encounters point out suspicious activity." It does nothing to enhance Stan's story. And Martha and Renee should not be compared. Martha was a fully fleshed out character (and one of the better written ones in the entire show).

We probably should just agree to disagree on this matter.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And that's precisely the reason why they shouldn't keep doing it. "Let's have every other woman that Stan encounters point out suspicious activity." It does nothing to enhance Stan's story. And Martha and Renee should not be compared. Martha was a fully fleshed out character (and one of the better written ones in the entire show).

 

Oh, I definitely agree there. It is crazy to think of Renee and Martha even in the same sentence. I was more just thinking about how in general you can have a person whose pov is outside the detectives and that makes them make a connection that the detective wouldn't have made, but without them solving the mystery. 

Of course with Martha that was one moment in a whole story that was Martha's alone and she had a ton of scenes with Stan than his wife has--and none of them were strange or made it seem like we should be suspicious of them (either by having her refer to some college wrong or by encouraging him to stay in counterintelligence the same way Clark encouraged Martha or by randomly asking if she should join the FBI as a 40-something person). The more I think about it, the more I think you're right that it would be hard to make it seem natural for weird Renee to have this strange build up and then randomly drop some accidental (or not) clue. With Martha she had a whole context that made the conversation ordinary.

It would wind up seeming like they just wanted somebody to give Stan this information and weren't interested in coming up with a character that made sense so instead just distracted people with moments to make them suspicious. Like they were trying to recreate the years of theories about Pastor Tim being a spy but knew they had to push it because with Renee there wasn't much to speculate about. The main reason people question her isn't because of the character herself but because her lack of character seems suspicious.

[Ellaria]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It would wind up seeming like they just wanted somebody to give Stan this information and weren't interested in coming up with a character that made sense so instead just distracted people with moments to make them suspicious. Like they were trying to recreate the years of theories about Pastor Tim being a spy but knew they had to push it because with Renee there wasn't much to speculate about. The main reason people question her isn't because of the character herself but because her lack of character seems suspicious.

Exactly!

Edited April 25, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Umbelina]

Yeah, that theory sounds plausible.

Also, Renee COULD actually notice something weird at the Jennings, specifically Paige, not being careful.

Elizabeth and Philip have it down pretty much, but Paige?  Doesn't.  Not at all, which we are being shown over and over again.

[SusanSunflower]

I could see Paige arriving home in the wee hours of the morning, in an obvious panic, after being somehow separated from Elizabeth and not knowing where else to go .... part of Elizabeth's poor preparation of Paige for real life.  Empty house, frantic Paige? 

I can't think of any reason for Renee to see the Mail Server murder sketches but we and Stan will see them again as they try to figure any commonalities between their recent 5 "random" unsolved murders, possibly summit related,   (Am I right in remembering the mail server murder that generated those sketches of P&E?)   I doubt terminally ill artist/wife has any reason to see those sketches either (but it may happen to show her spidy-face-recognition skills although she's only seen Philip (so far)). 

Edited April 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[BingeyKohan]

At this point I’m starting to be afraid she won’t be revealed to be sinister until the very end, and then in some closing montage we’ll see her settling into her new job at the FBI, for a sense of the cycle continuing. The only other thought I had was that somehow she could be the ‘man on the inside’ Claudia and Elizabeth currently suspect is the guy Paige photographed and who went to the vomit party. (I think that is the same Russian, right?) But, while we have seen nothing of Renee’s job, it’d be very ‘Alias’ of the show to reveal it’s been a front all along for something that gives her access to the arms treaty negotiations. 

[SunnyBeBe]

On 4/24/2018 at 9:34 PM, Bannon said:

This role is about as meaty as a Twinkie. I'm not criticizing her at all, mind you, but I can't believe she's working for scale, and given what the role has been. I don't know why a very pretty actor, who had not much of a resume, and thus was cheap, was not hired.

Maybe, she's a fan of the show and wanted the thrill.  lol  I mean, getting to kiss Stan!  Must be amazing.

[qtpye]

This is pure speculation, but maybe Renee has only one mission, to kill Phil and Liz, once they both become "expendable"?

[SunnyBeBe]

18 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This is pure speculation, but maybe Renee has only one mission, to kill Phil and Liz, once they both become "expendable"?

Maybe, but, I just don't see why that would be necessary.  If they want Paige to become a valuable asset for them one day, then it would be more appropriate for her parents to stay healthy, normal looking citizens who run a travel agency.  If they went missing or got murdered, it would open up investigation into their lives and that would place Paige's cover in jeopardy.  

[Bannon]

OK, no scenes for the mysterious Renee in "Harvest" and only 3 episodes left.  I now read that Laurie Holden was very unhappy with how her character was resolved on "The Walking Dead". What the hell is she going to say about this; "At least I didn't have to show up for work very often."?

I hope she didn't contract to be paid by the line!

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

OK, no scenes for the mysterious Renee in "Harvest" and only 3 episodes left.  I now read that Laurie Holden was very unhappy with how her character was resolved on "The Walking Dead". What the hell is she going to say about this; "At least I didn't have to show up for work very often."?

I hope she didn't contract to be paid by the line!

Sooo....maybe, she didn't get to become an important and interesting FBI employee.  lol Or, perhaps, she has to be the widow at the graveside. Hmmm....

[hellmouse]

Is it possible that Renee is some kind of American being run by the KGB, but she doesn't know that Philip and Elizabeth are also KGB? She was set out on a mission to get to know Stan and use him as a way to access the FBI. The KGB knows A LOT about Stan, thanks to Nina and Philip and the bug in Gaad's office. They may have seen him as having some vulnerabilities that can be exploited, so they set up with Renee. She thinks she's doing some good for a cause she believes in (whatever it is, IDK) so she dates him. But along the way, she actually develops feelings for him and keeps dating him. Of course, he decides to move out of counterintelligence, which is not helpful to her cause. But because she likes him, she marries him. But more recently, her handler has pushed her to get her own access into the FBI, hence her desire to work there. 

It's just so strange to me that she thinks working at the FBI will somehow make them more interested in each other's jobs and give them more to talk about. If she's in personnel, she probably should not discuss things with someone who's in a different division. And if Stan is in bank robbery/organized crime/counter-intelligence/whatever, he probably should not discuss things with someone in a different division. And she's going to be making less money. Who does that? If she wants something more meaningful she could take night classes or volunteer somewhere or even push Stan to retire early so they can travel or something. 

The way she is portrayed reminds me of that genre of 80's/90's movies with a woman who seems normal and turns out to be crazy. Like if she doesn't get a job at the FBI she will stab Stan or kidnap Aderholt's baby or take Matthew and Sandra hostage in a shopping mall. Maybe that's what will distract Stan and allow the Jenningses to get away. 

[Ellaria]

There are lots of suggestions in these threads about Renee's role in the final two episodes. Some sound like an after-the-credits scene in a Marvel movie. However, most of them are much more creative than what the writers have actually done with this character.

TPTB have turned her into a cipher and there is no reason for it. With 2+ hours left, we should not be wondering about her role but we have no choice. If they wanted us to question whether or not she was a spy, then set the table for it properly.  Let's see her doing something other than looking adoringly at Stan and asking questions. That doesn't suffice for character development.

Sure...Philip suspected her about 4 years ago but he has moved on. We, however, still suspect her. The writers are playing games with us. This isn't about what is possible in spy life. This is about bad writing and character development.

I have no idea what she may do now that she has a job in the FBI. If she turns out to be anything other than Stan's wife, I will be disappointed and not because I guessed wrong. I have no investment in Renee. She is not a fully fleshed out character; she is a plot device, at best. The end game of this show belongs to our main characters...the people that are emotionally invested in one other after years of watching, nurturing and suspicion. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

There are lots of suggestions in these threads about Renee's role in the final two episodes. Some sound like an after-the-credits scene in a Marvel movie.

LOL! Nailed it.

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

TPTB have turned her into a cipher and there is no reason for it. With 2+ hours left, we should not be wondering about her role but we have no choice. If they wanted us to question whether or not she was a spy, then set the table for it properly.  Let's see her doing something other than looking adoringly at Stan and asking questions. That doesn't suffice for character development.

 

It's weird...it occurs to me that it's almost like Renee is like the wife in some throwback show where wives of male heroes didn't need to have characters. You'd just have a scene at home with the guy and his wife would be saying wife things and maybe doing a bit--like if this was an old movie or tv show Renee wanting to be in the FBI would be a silly running joke about ladies who think they can be in the FBI. Maybe she'll bring cookies to her interview!

Only because it's not in that show she seems bizarre and suspicious.

[SusanSunflower]

I couldn't believe how within the first hour after the end of "The Summit" with all that went on, the board was obsessed with Renee.  I'm sure the writers were thrilled (not). 

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

I couldn't believe how within the first hour after the end of "The Summit" with all that went on, the board was obsessed with Renee.  I'm sure the writers were thrilled (not). 

Well, imo, it's their fault. They are the ones who wrote all that ridiculous stuff she said. Then, she gets a job interview with the FBI after her gushing over Stan and being so unhappy with her lowly job.  I mean, she was so embarrassed that she could not truly serve her country like Stan was doing. lol  Please.  But, she is a just a swell kind of gal though.  lol 

[DrumJunkie]

Long time lurker, 1st time poster (mainly because I don’t know how to be concise)

I don’t think Renee is a spy.  It seems like much of the dissatisfaction in the character is due to these expectations that so many have built up in their heads.  Not to say that those feeling aren’t without justification, but I think the showrunners have introduced a red herring here.

Here is what I’ve gleaned from watching the show.  The suspicion of Renee started with Philip, however when he voiced his concern, Gabriel responded with “You’re losing it Philip.”  To me, that was a frank and honest rebuttal.  Philip was under a lot of internal stress in S5 and Gabriel knew it.  For him to be that pointed was meant to squash the reservations.  There was no beating around the bush, distraction or other mind tricks.  Gabe simply told him to stop looking for something that isn’t there.  Still the show planted that seed that has taken root with so many.

I think the purpose of Renee is to support Stan’s character and provide a complimentary relationship to the Jennings.  Weisberg and Fields have told us repeatedly that this is a show about a marriage.  So Stan should have some relationship to compare/contrast with Philizabeth (Stanee?).  Viewing Stan and Renee through that lens makes sense to me.  Stan and Sandra divorced because Stan wasn’t emotionally available to her and couldn’t open up about his work life.  With Renee, she got Stan to grow emotionally and confide in her.  For a marriage, communication is key.  We see what no communication has done to Philip and Elizabeth.  As far as Renee’s motivation to join the FBI, let’s look at what she sees in Stan’s neighbors.  Philip and Elizabeth present the image of a great marriage.  They rarely (if at all) fight or argue in public, they work together, they have two successful kids.  At least, that is what Renee sees.  I’m going to assume that she wants to emulate that to a degree.  She fell in love with Stan for the man he is: dedicated, sympathetic, supportive.  Likewise, I feel he fell in love with her because she shared similar traits.  Her wanting to join the FBI is a logical extension of that.  Taken at face value, their kitchen conversations support that.

Also, Stan having a wife serves to delay his suspicion of the Jennings. If he were single, he’d be over more and have more opportunity to stumble across things pique his interest. Or even if he moved away, that point of dramatic tension would be removed. With a reason to be home, he has a natural distraction from focusing on them too closely. To me, the fact that much of Renee’s dialog could be viewed either way is clever writing (or trolling if you like).  Her character development is no more or less than Sandra’s was. We don’t know much of Sandra’s background, but she has drawn much praise.  Renee seems to get the shaft on here based on the expectation that she is a spy.  If her character is there to be the one that helps Stan to move on with his life and find some happiness, then she is doing well.  That also contrasts nicely with Sandra who did well to show where Stan started in the journey of the show.

All that being said, I’m open to being wrong.  The “J’s” have a good track record of being in tune with much of our concerns, believe it or not.  I trust the next two episodes will bear this out.  I remember from the S6 preview, a brief glimpse of Her Jeep Wagoneer getting cut off by a government vehicle. A few possibilities.

It’s Renee being found out as a spy, and being chased down by Stan.

It’s Stan driving trying to save Philip (Or Oleg!).

It’s Philip borrowing/stealing the car in a daring escape.

It’s misdirection and only Renee getting turned around trying to find the right parking lot at FBI for her interview.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

I think the purpose of Renee is to support Stan’s character and provide a complimentary relationship to the Jennings.  Weisberg and Fields have told us repeatedly that this is a show about a marriage.  So Stan should have some relationship to compare/contrast with Philizabeth (Stanee?).  Viewing Stan and Renee through that lens makes sense to me.  Stan and Sandra divorced because Stan wasn’t emotionally available to her and couldn’t open up about his work life.  With Renee, she got Stan to grow emotionally and confide in her.  For a marriage, communication is key.  We see what no communication has done to Philip and Elizabeth.  As far as Renee’s motivation to join the FBI, let’s look at what she sees in Stan’s neighbors.  Philip and Elizabeth present the image of a great marriage.  They rarely (if at all) fight or argue in public, they work together, they have two successful kids.  At least, that is what Renee sees.  I’m going to assume that she wants to emulate that to a degree.  She fell in love with Stan for the man he is: dedicated, sympathetic, supportive.  Likewise, I feel he fell in love with her because she shared similar traits.  Her wanting to join the FBI is a logical extension of that.  Taken at face value, their kitchen conversations support that.

 

This is a really interesting way to look at it--although here again it seems to raise more questions than it answers! Because it makes sense, but it sort of requires us to understand Stan and Renee's marriage and that's impossible because Renee seems like such a cardboard cut-out. Like, speaking for myself I've never wanted her to be a spy and would not be disappointed if she wasn't. 

But unlike with Pastor Tim, I understand why people keep raising these theories. Because she's just so strange and underwritten it almost seems like a way of trying to fix that. I mean, she sees the Jennings as having a great marriage...but they actually do. Right now they're in a terrible state, but that in itself almost shows just how strong their bond is. Renee is both right and wrong seeing them as having a strong relationship because they work together--wrong because for a while now they haven't been working together. They've lost both the children and the spywork that used to keep them in sync. But at the same time she's right since they're now spying together again and they do still have that understanding and also things broke down when they stopped working together so closely.

But the trouble is if we're supposed to see their relationship as a contrast to the Jennings the main difference seems to be that the Jennings have a real, complicated relationship between two complex, difficult people who have fought a lot of battles to get where they are while Stan and Renee seem like a came-with-the-frame couple who are blandly sweet to each other. 

If we think about Renee as just a regular woman who's Stan's wife (which would be great to me) maybe that would be one of the points to it. That even with Renee wanting to work at the FBI, Stan's naturally not sharing all his suspicions with her as if she's his partner. (Maybe he will eventually tell her something and she'll either support him and end up giving up a clue or support him and accidentally mess things up.) 

If Stan finds out for sure that his best friend is a Russian spy, that might knock him back into the kind of state he was originally in where he can't trust anyone, which would start the cycle all over again. I mean, it's probably not just Renee who is looking to the Jennings as a model for marriage. Stan must have been doing the same thing for years. Even if Philip doesn't talk in detail about his marriage Stan knows they've had problems they worked through and must sense the closeness between them the same way everyone does. It could really do a number on him. I doubt there'd be time to show his marriage breaking down, of course, but if he went home to Renee there could totally be just a scene that told you it was going to happen eventually.

[DrumJunkie]

I guess I've never considered Renee's character as underdeveloped or under written.  Personally, I don't see it as any more or less developed than Sandra's was. Neither one had much of a back story.  Did we ever know what Sandra did for a job or if she had a job (stay at home mom)? (I honestly forget)  Any hobbies or interests besides EST? We know Renee had an active lifestyle (working out, hiking, skydiving, etc. We know her career ambitions.  We knew neither about Sandra.  I do think Susan Misner did a better job than Laurie, but not by much.  I see the purpose of Sandra to create conflict for Stan's character, while Renee's character is there to resolve it.  When you strip away the spy angle that may not exist, both characters serve to bookend the marriage arc of Stan's life.  It is possible that the dissatisfaction is just due to a lack of delivery on the spy angle?  Is she not developed or is she not developed in the way that everyone wants her to be?

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

I guess I've never considered Renee's character as underdeveloped or under written.  Personally, I don't see it as any more or less developed than Sandra's was.

It's not that she doesn't have a backstory for me, it's her interactions. Sandra and Stan had a lot of interactions and she had her own character arc where she was going to EST, confronting Stan, trying to get Stan to open up to her, shooting down his superficial attempts, her telling him she was leaving. She even had that whole talk with Philip at EST. The approach to Sandra was totally different--she had motivations that weren't all about Stan and relating to Stan. EST wasn't just a hobby like you'd list as a character trait, it was the whole thing that the character was doing, trying to define herself since she didn't feel like Stan's wife etc. It went along with the other themes of the show at the time.

That's what I mean about Renee, that I think there's good reason people feel like she's just a strange edition who sticks out. On paper she's fine--more than fine, which is why Philip originally suggested she was a spy.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, although it may have been mentioned no one seems to remember, I'd like to know what work she does and (as with Paige) if she knows how to fire a gun (lots of people do, I don't, could be handy in coming days).  While she doesn't need to be a genius, she's obviously (at least to me) quick and bright and energetic.  I doubt she's been a stay at home "mom" to a mostly adult teenager / empty house for the last 3 years.  Renee seems to be actively courting the Aderholds and the Jennings likely to ensure she's not left stuck home along with sometimes-uncommunicative Stan.  I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has a culture of couples -- he in LE, she in support services -- because being married to someone who can't talk about their work and whose work can involve uncertain scheduled and long hours would get lonely, even "bad for the marriage" ...   Before P&E recent financial embarassments, I could easily see shared vacations and vacation rentals .... pretty common east coast summer and winter projects for the financially secure. 

[Umbelina]

The thing is though, WHEN have we ever seen Philip be paranoid or suspect another American of being a spy?

Never.  It was one time, and it was Renee.

Gabe could be lying, or he may not be read in on that operation. 

I just don't want Renee to have a big impact on the ending, that would seriously annoy me.  However, a little section of an ending montage scene where she pulls out a one-time pad someplace, or picking up a dead drop, or doing a brush pass, after leaving work at the FBI?  Wouldn't bother me.

It would just be saying "yes, the FBI busted a bunch of people, but guess what?  There are more."

[SusanSunflower]

As far as I can tell, the Jennings are not big "socializers" ... Stan and Renee (and Aderhold and his wife) seem (??) to make up their social circle outside work ... we don't know about 10 years ago when Paige was a girl scout or ballet or soccer enthusiast**,,,  My guess is that E.'s competitiveness rubbed off on the elementary/middle school years extracurricular activities ... and "other mothers"  ... I dunno.  I have little doubt the travel agency employees noticed E.'s withdrawal wrt line dancing, but I'd guess there were holiday parties and cookouts in the cul de sac. 

In short, I think Philip may have been just reacting to Renee's "intrusiveness" ... While Sandra understood boundaries (and Elizabeth) ,,,   My father considered "how are you today" a excessively personal coming from a stranger .... "why do you want to know?" he often replied while I slunk away. 

 

** hard to imagine being the introvert daughter of Elizabeth Jennings. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

In short, I think Philip may have been just reacting to Renee's "intrusiveness" ... While Sandra understood boundaries (and Elizabeth) ,,,   My father considered "how are you today" a excessively personal coming from a stranger .... "why do you want to know?" he often replied while I slunk away. 

 

Iirc, he was reacting to the whole way the relationship happened. She happened to be walking by him at the gym a lot. Turned out they had so much in common. Like everything Stan liked, Renee liked. Very quickly they were close and then she moved in, etc. Stan even said, "She's like you...only a woman!" or something like that. So it wasn't really her personality, which was just bubbly, it was that the way they met mirrored what Philip was pretty much doing with Deirdre and had done with plenty others.

Of course, it could be a comment on how all meetings are accidental--that's why people believe the spy set ups. Some people still think Kelly on the bus was a plant simply because it led Paige eventually to something important. But she wasn't. 

But for viewers the fact that Renee has continued in the same vein, still seeming to just exist to be interested in Stan, makes her seem just as fishy. As opposed to Sandra who from the start was obviously her own character defined by her side of the situation--mother trying to get used to having her husband home again, worried about her son's relationship with his father after the separation, wondering who she was now with Stan so changed, trying to be friends with Elizabeth briefly. That's another reason why her encounter with Philip at EST rings so true, that it was just such a surprise. These two hadn't had much independent interaction and then it turned out they really clicked as two individuals.

Of course, if she had been Directorate-S or KGB and knew Philip and Elizabeth were fakers it would odd for her to be the one asking them personal questions just because...why go there?