S04.E08: In The Dead Vast And Middle Of The Night

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Eleanor throws Willow a party that spirals out of control, while Robert forms a sinister alliance. Liam proves his loyalty to his brother, but at what cost?

[EarlGreyTea]

Willow and Robert fans, be warned: they share exactly one scene together, at the very end. You're welcome. And also the promo for next week doesn't look promising at ALL.

I KNEW Cyrus and Liam were in cahoots for a while now, going back several episodes probably. Kathryn too (okay, fine, I wasn't as sure about her as I was about Cyrus). She actually became interesting this episode. Unfortunately, according to the promo, this spells the end of the fun times us Robert fans have had. It's been a pleasure enjoying this show with all of you. As Scar would say, be prepared. The end is nigh.

Very much a filler episode, which I feel we've not had in a while.  But Robert looked great in that suit and his hair slightly tousled.

I love that Eleanor, Helena, and Willow are friendly. This show is very lacking in female friendships since Ophelia left. I like that Eleanor's drug expertise came in handy. She was so tender with Willow. And Genevieve Gaunt got to stretch her comedic wings. The dog fakeout killed me. And it was funny seeing her in shorts and a T-shirt for once. I loved when she said she wouldn't mind not being queen, but not marrying Robert would devastate her. And that what he thought of her meant more to her than anyone else's opinion. If only I felt like their pairing was on more solid ground.

The soil loophole of Cyrus' was hysterical.

The Robert with the pool game with Jasper: I'm really tired of their constant pissing match. Jasper is such a self-righteous prick for someone who legit drugged and conned his so-called love. The only person I accept as a true rival for Robert is Cyrus, because he so clearly has his number (due to them being two sides of the same coin) and he's hysterical.

[emjohnson03]

This episode was filler for sure but set up for the showdown in the last few episodes. I'm surprised they were all in at the end especially with Kathryn. And again, could she be any duller? 

I like Willow and Eleanor together. That was very sweet. I'm always happy to see Eleanor away from Jasper since they suck up alot of time (I was once a fan of them but then they just grated and they set up Willow and Robert and it was just so much better) which leads me...

Damn, I did NOT expect Willow to back up from Robert. I think that was savage and he was hurt. He REALLY does care for her but she knows he's got issues. Next week looks super angsty but I say bring it because I loved see sassy Willow. And I want Robert to feel the regret and remorse of hurting her especially. But Max Brown, stop being SO DANG SEXY! I can't. I really can't.

And Willow DEF wants Robert but on a level playing field. I don't see her in "any plan" and I'll be pissed if she's revealed to be with Liam and Cyrus. I doubt for sure but still, they could have her motivations. I think she's genuine in what she feels for him but she knows it comes with a price (if he doesn't get honest with her).

I'm feeling that Robert and Willow will be strained but somehow he will bring her back in, and I hope he doesn't his "I'm the king" to get her back. I am pumped even though I know it's going to end in a crazy way (And I have little hope for S5). But Max Brown said these were his favorite episodes 9 and 10, so you know it goes down. 

Everyone is playing everyone. 

[EarlGreyTea]

3 minutes ago, emjohnson03 said:

This episode was filler for sure but set up for the showdown in the last few episodes. I'm surprised they were all in at the end especially with Kathryn. And again, could she be any duller? 

I like Willow and Eleanor together. That was very sweet. I'm always happy to see Eleanor away from Jasper since they suck up alot of time (I was once a fan of them but then they just grated and they set up Willow and Robert and it was just so much better) which leads me...

Damn, I did NOT expect Willow to back up from Robert. I think that was savage and he was hurt. He REALLY does care for her but she knows he's got issues. Next week looks super angsty but I say bring it because I loved see sassy Willow. And I want Robert to feel the regret and remorse of hurting her especially. But Max Brown, stop being SO DANG SEXY! I can't. I really can't.

And Willow DEF wants Robert but on a level playing field. I don't see her in "any plan" and I'll be pissed if she's revealed to be with Liam and Cyrus. I doubt for sure but still, they could have her motivations. I think she's genuine in what she feels for him but she knows it comes with a price (if he doesn't get honest with her).

I'm feeling that Robert and Willow will be strained but somehow he will bring her back in, and I hope he doesn't his "I'm the king" to get her back. I am pumped even though I know it's going to end in a crazy way (And I have little hope for S5). But Max Brown said these were his favorite episodes 9 and 10, so you know it goes down. 

Everyone is playing everyone. 

Wow, I didn't even consider that Willow may be in cahoots with Liam and Cyrus. I think sleeping with Robert and opening up her private life to the media may be going a bit too far for a long con, but with this show? I wouldn't be surprised. If she has to be in on any plan, I want it to be Robert's, although it would be wildly inconsistent with what we've seen of her character, which is essentially goodhearted.

I'm a bit salty I didn't see the Kathryn reveal coming. I watch a ton of horror films, and things like that are Suspense 101. I did see Liam and Cyrus coming, though, which was a bit less obvious.

I personally think this episode was the final nail in the coffin for me that there's no going back with Robert. Full-on villain, and with how the promo for next week was, he may end up alone. I was able to lie to myself for the entire season, but it's time to face the music that Liam will win, Robert will end up in jail or dead, and I'm just hoping Willow scrapes out alive.

[emjohnson03]

4 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I personally think this episode was the final nail in the coffin for me that there's no going back with Robert. Full-on villain, and with how the promo for next week was, he may end up alone. I was able to lie to myself for the entire season, but it's time to face the music that Liam will win, Robert will end up in jail or dead, and I'm just hoping Willow scrapes out alive.

Ugh I know right? I think what has made the season so enjoyable for me, is not just Max Brown as eye candy (because HELLO) but because he plays Robert with layers. I think that's why I love him with Willow because she's good and sweet and sees the goodness. In reality, he would be a crazy sociopath for the sake of this show, he has depth and meaning to him, at least that's how Max plays him and if they go with this all in villain stuff, that just stinks to me. 

I think he will be able to save his relationship with Willow (somehow) but I do fear it's only going to end terrible at the end. Does he deserve it? Sure. But I want them to play it with depth and breadth and not pull Robert into this vortex of EVIL. It's just too easy when I hope they still have something exciting to pull from. 

And I need more Max Brown as Robert. Thanks. (Can you sense I'm not ready to say goodbye to his character?)

[francie202]

Had to create an account after tonight’s episode just to say: If Robert & Willow aren’t endgame, then screw The Royals. I hope it’s the end of the show, too, and they don’t get renewed for a season 5.

Sorry, I know I’m being petty, but I haven’t shipped a fictional couple like this in a looong time.

Re: promos for next week — what are the chances it’s actually Eleanor (instead of Robert) that Willow gets angry at after Eleanor tells her she can’t marry Robert? After tonight’s episode, I really believe our girl Willow is head over heals for Robbie. 

--

Edited to add:

Sorry, still heated after tonight’s episode:

1. Screw Liam. If Robbie’s not going to be king, then the only alternative I’ll remotely accept is Queen Eleanor. 

2. Need more Max Brown on my screen post-The Royals!! He’s soooo good!

Edited April 30, 2018 by francie202

[twoods]

Enjoying Max Brown as Robert, but he’s such an egotistical dick. I wouldn’t mind seeing him go down, but then again I really love Willow no want to see her happy. I’m glad that they depicted her loving Robert instead of making googoo eyes at Liam. 

Speaking of Willow, it was hilarious seeing her tripping out on acid. The actress looked like she was having a blast. Helena covered in chocolate was hilarious. 

Kathryn finally got interesting. I’m glad she wasn’t the lovesick dumb girl I thought she was. I will be at my table of one liking this new turn of events.

Edited April 30, 2018 by twoods

[MsTree]

3 hours ago, twoods said:

I will be at my table of one liking this new turn of events

You've got company, so move over :-)

[omgsowicked]

Willow poking Helena in the boob, and then nearly drowning her in chocolate, and Cyrus hitting on Jasper, is the shit I signed up for. :P I love those goofy, campy moments (and you could tell Cyrus and Jasper's actors were having a good time with that scene).

After the last episode, I thought that Helena would be icy toward Willow for a while but she was very pleasant with her. Alright, I'll take it! I hate Cassandra!!! She must have slipped in after Helena and Eleanor left, since they would have recognized her. Argh! Mr. Hill really needs to step it up, if she can slink in and drug the future Queen. That transition into regular Eleanor and "tripping balls" witchy Eleanor was great, though. I like Willow and Eleanor's friendship ("sisters!") and I hope Eleanor goes after Cassandra. And if anything, being strung out helped Willow with that final question, though I think she would have answered the same way regardless (just with less attitude, and maybe omitting the "missing my fiance" bit). I loved her answer, and I loved how she confronted Robert about Cassandra and didn't easily accept his apology. Robert's so confident and in control of everything, so I like seeing him a little more vulnerable and honest with Willow.

Cyrus walking on Venezuelan soles to get around the rules, ha! Well, I guess that's a way to get him back into the fold. He still hates Robert but he has seemed remorseful about how he's dealt with his family, which is interesting.

I wanted Robert and Liam to call off the dogs and finally care about each other but since Robert's scheming, so is Liam. On the one hand, Robert is power-tripping, so if Liam's trying to stop that, I guess that's a good thing. But on the other hand, Robert's delicious to watch, and Liam pales in comparison, so I'm not rooting for him to win and/or become King (and Kathryn to become Queen?! Hell no!!). And I don't see how Robert can remain on the show if he's removed from the throne (because if we thought Cyrus reacted badly, Robert will be 100 times worse!), and he needs to stay on the show. He's too interesting to watch. Back to Liam's scheming, I never considered that Willow might be in on it all... I seriously hope she isn't. I love Robert and Willow's dynamic too much for her to be playing him. Maybe it hasn't happened yet but if she finds out about his plans, she will turn on him? I'd rather she try to guide him to a better path than to abandon him.

I'm starting to wonder if Willow saying she cared about being with Robert more than being Queen, and Robert telling Kathryn they should have run off together like they'd talked about (unless I'm misremembering that?), is a bit of foreshadowing. Maybe if/when Robert loses his crown, they'll run away together? I'd rather they both stay on the show but I'll take an endgame.

Damn it, Kathryn! I thought we were finally done with her. But I guess it's good to know that she isn't a pathetic loser who runs back to people who call her names.

[paisley]

Damn, Robert. I was willing to work with you being shady and manipulative but slipping off into megalomaniacal isn't attractive. Pull up, pull up.

I loved every second of Cyrus and Jasper. That was an unexpected treat.

Willow is wonderful-sweet Willow, tripping Willow, no f**ks left to give Willow, no BS Willow, all the Willows on display this episode were awesome.

I understand the necessity of Liam getting Robert under control, I'm just not into it or him as hero. He's deficient in some way and its worrisome. I can't support Robert but I'm not at all interested in King Liam as endgame. Maybe OG king was right and the monarchy should be abolished. Plus-Queen Kathryn!?! Hell no.

As much as I have enjoyed this season I have missed Mr. Hill. He's the sole voice of sanity so I guess he doesn't fit. Even Cyrus is sounding rational at this point.

I'd like a Season 5 so we can get a Robert redemption without him hurting Willow and a HEA for everyone. A cliffhanger as the series finale will suck.

Wow. I was writing my comment when omgsowicked's posted. So sorry for the similarities. Basically- what she said, very on point.

[phoenics]

Ugh - so we're back to self-righteous and earnest Liam working with Cyrus to take Robert down.

This show really doesn't know what it has in Max Brown and is now blowing all of that up.

I don't think there will be a Season 5 - and worse, this probably ends with Liam winning and King.  I'd rather he dissolve the monarchy than see him as King.  And him and Kathryn?  Whatever.  She is DRY as burnt toast.  Also - rather than have Kathryn simply turn Robert down and prove she loves Liam, they go through all of this, predicting that Robert just wanted his brother by his side?  Liam is NOT that smart.

FFS this show just stretches the bounds of common sense.

What a disappointment.

I may have to skip episodes 9-10 and come back only if there is a season 5 - or watch them like months away.  I don't know if I can really watch all of this go down.

I'm mad the show didn't end tonight's episode with Willow smacking Robert and then the two of them going in for a passionate kiss - with Willow threatening him about keeping secrets... and I'm high key mad they didn't have Willow tell Robert that Cassandra DRUGGED her.  I'm starting to agree that the show doesn't fully want us to invest in them - they keep missing passionate beats while we're forced to watch DullBlonde and DishwaterBlonderer kiss constantly.

I think there just isn't going to be a S5, so they are going full villain with Robert.  They should have brought him back in Season 2, lol.  He could have saved this show from itself then.

[EarlGreyTea]

22 hours ago, emjohnson03 said:

Ugh I know right? I think what has made the season so enjoyable for me, is not just Max Brown as eye candy (because HELLO) but because he plays Robert with layers. I think that's why I love him with Willow because she's good and sweet and sees the goodness. In reality, he would be a crazy sociopath for the sake of this show, he has depth and meaning to him, at least that's how Max plays him and if they go with this all in villain stuff, that just stinks to me. 

I think he will be able to save his relationship with Willow (somehow) but I do fear it's only going to end terrible at the end. Does he deserve it? Sure. But I want them to play it with depth and breadth and not pull Robert into this vortex of EVIL. It's just too easy when I hope they still have something exciting to pull from. 

And I need more Max Brown as Robert. Thanks. (Can you sense I'm not ready to say goodbye to his character?)

Yeah, one-note villains are dull unless they're pure comedic relief, like Cyrus.  I love that Robert has layers, but what I'm worried about is that the entire thing with Willow is just part of his plan and that he hasn't caught feelings. I'm not interested in a S5 if that's where they're going with this, which I increasingly fear is what will happen. And even if he HAS caught feelings, Willow is such a decent person that I cannot see her compromising her values to stay with him.

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I think there just isn't going to be a S5, so they are going full villain with Robert.  They should have brought him back in Season 2, lol.  He could have saved this show from itself then.

Agreed. I can already call what's going to happen: Robert turning full villain, possibly threatening Willow, before tossed into the slammer and/or killed off. Liam being king. End of show. This is why while Robert is entertaining, I love him so much as a character that I don't want him thrown aside for the likes of Liam. I really wish they HAD brought him on sooner, because the show was floundering for a long time before he returned. If there has to be conflict, I'd rather it just be normal brotherly conflict, not murder, for chrissakes.

I really think the writers have no idea if they want us to invest in Robert and Willow. On the one hand, they give us sweet scenes of Robert giving her that jewelry box. On the other, they don't show us saying yes to his proposal. They skip some pivotal romantic scenes, then pull back and give us others. It's odd.

Edited May 1, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[paisley]

Does anyone know when filming was completed for this season? I'm curious about if TPTB were aware of what they have in Willow and Robert both separately and together. Previous posters are exactly right about writers traipsing past the important elements in their relationship. It is unfortunate because Max and Genevieve are really capable of selling all aspects of a complex relationship.  Plus the actors look like they're having fun.

Phoenics, do I recognize you from the ill fated Sleepy Hollow fandom? If so I completely understand you not wanting to witness the possible upcoming train wreck. Protect yourself, I'm right there with you.

[EarlGreyTea]

5 minutes ago, paisley said:

Does anyone know when filming was completed for this season? I'm curious about if TPTB were aware of what they have in Willow and Robert both separately and together. Previous posters are exactly right about writers traipsing past the important elements in their relationship. It is unfortunate because Max and Genevieve are really capable of selling all aspects of a complex relationship.  Plus the actors look like they're having fun.

Phoenics, do I recognize you from the ill fated Sleepy Hollow fandom? If so I completely understand you not wanting to witness the possible upcoming train wreck. Protect yourself, I'm right there with you.

Filming wrapped around September, per Max Brown's Instagram. I remember feeling salty that we didn't get our normal December return date. I loved watching it around the holidays. Speaking of Brown, @emjohnson03 mentioning that Brown loved episodes 9 and 10 must mean  he goes full mustache-twirling villain. That's fun for an actor to play, I imagine. He's kind of slumming it on this show, but he's a real character actor and his wife just had another kid, so I imagine this is fun for him.

I am not phoenics, but I, too, watched Sleepy Hollow, which I pretend ended after the first season.

Edited May 1, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[paisley]

Thanks for the rapid response EarlGreyTea. So that means audience response has no bearing on what's happening on screen. It was written in a vacuum. Too bad for us and any hope of influencing the outcome.

I feel your SH pain. ;(

[catrice2]

Well I can say I was prepared for the worst, they hinted at moving him in one direction and then moving him back, which had to mean Liam was scheming and would come out on top.  

 

Thanks guys for warning me not to watch Sunday's episode, or the next two!   I suspect the show may get canceled, but then again if they cancel it what else does E! have?  It may stay for that reason. 

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, paisley said:

Does anyone know when filming was completed for this season? I'm curious about if TPTB were aware of what they have in Willow and Robert both separately and together. Previous posters are exactly right about writers traipsing past the important elements in their relationship. It is unfortunate because Max and Genevieve are really capable of selling all aspects of a complex relationship.  Plus the actors look like they're having fun.

Phoenics, do I recognize you from the ill fated Sleepy Hollow fandom? If so I completely understand you not wanting to witness the possible upcoming train wreck. Protect yourself, I'm right there with you.

Yep - I was in the SHF.  That S3 finale broke me.

[VartanFan]

I didn't necessarily see the Kathryn twist coming.  I have to say that I'd rather Liam marry Ophelia before he marries Kathryn - that's how boring I find her.  I figure if Len can be in love with the guy who rapey blackmailed her, Liam can marry the woman whose father killed his father.  Though maybe Simon's not dead or something. 

LOVED the Cyrus/Jasper interaction.  It was delightful.

Have we heard anything about cancellation?  A number of posters have indicated that they're pessimistic about a Season 5, so I'm wondering why. 

[EarlGreyTea]

3 hours ago, VartanFan said:

I didn't necessarily see the Kathryn twist coming.  I have to say that I'd rather Liam marry Ophelia before he marries Kathryn - that's how boring I find her.  I figure if Len can be in love with the guy who rapey blackmailed her, Liam can marry the woman whose father killed his father.  Though maybe Simon's not dead or something. 

LOVED the Cyrus/Jasper interaction.  It was delightful.

Have we heard anything about cancellation?  A number of posters have indicated that they're pessimistic about a Season 5, so I'm wondering why. 

With the departure of the showrunner, Mark Schwahn (good riddance), earlier this year and the fact that I don't think the show is exactly a ratings winner - cancellation has been a possibility every season. Having said that, I think it has done fairly steadily to get 4 seasons, so maybe they'll keep it on for one more season for syndication purposes.

Edited May 3, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[Caverlily]

Willow this episode was hilarious. Loved the contrast between Robert's tuxedo-clad table and the absolute pandemonium with Helena and her. Can't get enough right now and there's only two episodes to go aargh!! The acid trip and resulting chocolate fountain scene was definitely one of the more memorable moments recently and just simply fun especially with poor Liz Hurley ending up in the fountain. Must have been a fun filming day!