S05.E18: All Roads Lead...

[Froippi]

7 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Five years of the character continually showing a willingness to help people, even if it meant she could die (she was willing to give up her life to initially deal with the rift in the 100th episode, and she was also willing to stay in the future if it meant that she couldn't endanger anyone when she thought she was the Destroyer of Worlds). 

Yet she was willing to let Ruby live even with the Gravitonium which the way it sounds is Gravitonium can’t be control easy anyone infuse with Gravitonium is a serious threat and keep them walk freely or in a cell is a risk

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Lobsel Vith]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

Yet she was willing to let Ruby live even with the Gravitonium which the way it sounds is Gravitonium can’t be control easy 

Daisy thought she could get through to Ruby, and this isn't an example that - in any way, shape, or form - helps your argument at all. Daisy thinking that she could reach Ruby doesn't mean she would have condemned civilization. Personally, I don't believe Elena was wrong to take the action that she did (there's nothing that suggested Ruby could genuinely be redeemed), but this has nothing to do with what Fitz did.

[Froippi]

4 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Daisy thought she could get through to Ruby, and this isn't an example that - in any way, shape, or form - helps your argument at all. Daisy thinking that she could reach Ruby doesn't mean she would have condemned civilization. Personally, I don't believe Elena was wrong to take the action that she did (there's nothing that suggested Ruby could genuinely be redeemed), but this has nothing to do with what Fitz did.

My point is she put a lot of people at risk cause she thought she could talk down a crazy person which she would never been able to do regardless that fact that she made Hale that. Promise was a big no no

[Gothish520]

30 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I think the fact that it's Fitz who did it colors how people look at what happened, and it's why some people refuse to hold him accountable or judge him.

It's not that people are refusing to hold him accountable. It's that up until the Framework, Fitz was a good guy. He was an integral part of the team, and the stuff he has done since then has not been with evil intent. The Framework screwed with him mentally.

Look at what Daisy did when she was under Hive's control. People have forgiven her for that, because she was not in her right mind. Fitz is struggling and is not in his right mind right now. It's not at all that I think what he did was great, but I do still believe that it was necessary. He did not have time to sit around schmoozing Daisy and trying to convince her to do something that he was sure she would not be convinced to do. Daisy was so terrified that she was the Destroyer of Worlds that she refused to get her powers back. She is stubborn as hell, she would have argued with Fitz until it was too late and the rift caused irreparable damage.

[Lobsel Vith]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

My point is she put a lot of people at risk cause she thought she could talk down a crazy person which she would never been able to do regardless that fact that she made Hale that. Promise was a big no no

A stance that presumes that Daisy could have easily killed Ruby when we saw how easily she crushed Alex's skull without even meaning to, and how she could have killed Daisy effortlessly. I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.

1 minute ago, Gothish520 said:

Look at what Daisy did when she was under Hive's control. People have forgiven her for that, because she was not in her right mind. Fitz is struggling and is not in his right mind right now. It's not at all that I think what he did was great, but I do still believe that it was necessary.

Except Fitz still proceeded with his plan after Simmons snapped him out of his daze, so the Hive comparison doesn't really work after that point. Fitz made a mess of things and caused problems by thinking he knew better than everyone else. His arrogance nearly killed Mack.

2 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

He did not have time to sit around schmoozing Daisy and trying to convince her to do something that he was sure she would not be convinced to do.

But he had time to construct multiple robots? Come on now.

2 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Daisy was so terrified that she was the Destroyer of Worlds that she refused to get her powers back. She is stubborn as hell, she would have argued with Fitz until it was too late and the rift caused irreparable damage.

Daisy has changed her mind before, so the notion that she couldn't be persuaded 'until it was too late' comes across more like a transparent attempt to exonerate Fitz for torturing her than it does a genuine stance about her behavior.

[Froippi]

16 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

A stance that presumes that Daisy could have easily killed Ruby when we saw how easily she crushed Alex's skull without even meaning to, and how she could have killed Daisy effortlessly. I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.

Except Fitz still proceeded with his plan after Simmons snapped him out of his daze, so the Hive comparison doesn't really work after that point. Fitz made a mess of things and caused problems by thinking he knew better than everyone else. His arrogance nearly killed Mack.

But he had time to construct multiple robots? Come on now.

Daisy has changed her mind before, so the notion that she couldn't be persuaded 'until it was too late' comes across more like a transparent attempt to exonerate Fitz for torturing her than it does a genuine stance about her behavior.

sorry but I will always choose the option to save billions of lives vs. someone getting their feelings hurt 

[Lobsel Vith]

Just now, Froippi said:

sorry but I will always choose the option to save billions of lives vs. someone getting their feelings hurt 

Then you must dislike Fitz for choosing Simmons over the world and giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the position where she felt she had to kill Ruby.

[Froippi]

6 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Then you must dislike Fitz for choosing Simmons over the world and giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the position where she felt she had to kill Ruby.

pretty sure I said that in this thread maybe I didn't that is why I have np with what YoYo did either it probably save billions

Edited April 28, 2018 by Froippi

[Cranberry]

You (general You) can disagree about the show all you like, but backseat moderating will not be tolerated. Posters cannot tell other posters which topics they can and can't bring up and which words they can and can't use. If you find someone else's posts repetitive and annoying and don't want to see them, block them.

[TVSpectator]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Just once, I would like to see people in genre shows do the math and be like, "Well, if I don't help you, you'll torture and kill me and my loved one. If I help you, billions will die. Also, you will probably kill us afterwards anyway because you're evil like that, and I still pose a threat to undo what I've done. I think I won't help you."

That would be different to see it happen and nice. Too bad once Simmons saw Ruby she started to shiver in fear and decided to just fixed the machine with Fitz. 

5 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

It's not that people are refusing to hold him accountable. It's that up until the Framework, Fitz was a good guy. He was an integral part of the team, and the stuff he has done since then has not been with evil intent. The Framework screwed with him mentally.

Look at what Daisy did when she was under Hive's control. People have forgiven her for that, because she was not in her right mind. Fitz is struggling and is not in his right mind right now. It's not at all that I think what he did was great, but I do still believe that it was necessary. He did not have time to sit around schmoozing Daisy and trying to convince her to do something that he was sure she would not be convinced to do. Daisy was so terrified that she was the Destroyer of Worlds that she refused to get her powers back. She is stubborn as hell, she would have argued with Fitz until it was too late and the rift caused irreparable damage.

I would disagree with Fitz's past actions as being "good". Sure they may have some good intentions but overall they weren't good. Especially him hiding AIDA to SHIELD. As with Daisy's actions under Hive's control, I agree people were too easy to forgive her (both writing wise and also in the fanbase) but that doesn't excuse Fitz's actions nor Simmons' actions. 

[Sandman]

On 4/21/2018 at 3:04 PM, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, no way do I buy that the world was saved by Yo Yo killing Ruby. Way too easy. That being said, its kind of hard to blame her for what she did. Ruby is a seriously unstable, murder happy teenager who had potentially world destroying super powers. She just killed her boyfriend by accident, and would have probably killed most of them. No way was that going to end well. Daisy wanted to help her because i think she was projecting a bit with her whole "scared young woman with mom issues and powers she got that she doesn't understand" drama. Just like how last week her daddy and abandonment issues convinced her to allow Talbot to call his son, even when it was dangerous and against protocol. I mean, I do feel some sympathy for Hale and Ruby (as they were raised in HYDRA and are clearly not well in the head) but they're still the bad guys, and they need to be stopped, and not have all their crimes wiped away. 

I honestly don't know what this show is trying to accomplish anymore. It took me a couple of months to get around to watching the last four episodes, because everyone and everything in it appears to have become monumentally stupid. Half of the team is acting out of character: they're driven by revenge, completely insane, or "turned evil." I feel like the show runners expect (or at least want) me to feel sympathy for Hale or Ruby, but I don't. Hale made a lifelong string of bad choices and blames everyone but herself for them. The actress playing Ruby is nails-on-a-chalkboard in human form. I just want both characters to suffer horribly and then die lingering deaths -- preferably offscreen.

This season was just grimdark and violent for no real reason.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Are you fucking kidding me, show? Killing Ruby is bad now? Killing random red shirts is totally fine but killing the psycho is not because... "she is a kid". She was old enough to fight and kill and torture people, then she was old enough to get killed without much hesitation, if you ask me. Yes, it sucks to have a mother like that but if the choice is between the bad guy and their victims... it's not much of a choice, regardless if the villain is 10, 20 or 200 years old. Live by the chakram, die by the chakram. Plus, the actress is terrible, please keep Ruby dead. Also, Daisy giving an out of nowhere speech about Ruby being potentially a great agent was such a cheap way of trying to create some sympathy for her before her death.

Speaking of torture, I have honestly lost count on the number of torture scenes this season. The writers don't seem to have the guts to kill any important good guy (yet) but boy, do they love their torture scenes as a cheap way of racking up the tension. Also, so much more gore than before, including the unintentionally hilarious scene of Mack the surgeon in the previous episode. Newsflash - this doesn't make your plots any less stupid.

And just as importantly, all the gore in the world won't make the stakes feel any higher if you keep avoiding to deal with the consequences of the characters' actions. I will eat my hat if FitzSimmons and Yo-yo suffer any consequences for their little mutiny (I mean from their teammates, I am sure "the universe" will have some pain in store for them). It bugs me when organisations on TV have supposedly really strict rules, yet the main characters keep breaking the rules over and over and getting a slap on the wrist at best. I know SHIELD is a vigilante organisation now but they make such a big deal about who should be in charge but regardless if it's Daisy, Coulson or whoever, everyone obeys orders only if they feel like it.

Of course, FitzSimmons' dumb plan turned out to save the day for now, though, I am sure it will turn out to have caused even bigger problems because the season finale is yet to come and these characters can't catch a break.

Remember when Bobbi took a bullet and was still feeling the effects months later? They should have had Mack operate her because Deke is somehow miraculously up and about already.

I had to laugh when watching the previous episode - May criticized Daisy for thinking only about saving Coulson. Who do you think she learned that from, May? Coulson did exactly the same in regards to Daisy at least half a dozen times and you all kept following him devotedly, now you suddenly decide that this leadership style is dumb (which it is, if you ask me but the inconsistency is annoying).

This show is turning into my "junk food" TV, I keep watching and wondering how you can create such interesting characters and involve them repeatedly in such boring and/or nonsensical plots. At least I still like the characters themselves which makes AoS a lot more bearable than the late seasons of many other shows where boring storylines are combined with character assassination. Though, Fitz is getting close to that, alas.

I also wonder how you can have not one, not two but three couples consisting of characters whom I like individually and as friends and then make me roll my eyes at their romance so often. It sure feels like the network executives forced the writers to "couple up" everybody and the writers responded by turning the angst up to 11 and having Deke ask dumb questions about what is it to date a fellow agent. It took almost three seasons before Fitz and Simmons hooked up but now office romance is everywhere somehow.

If you ask me, the show needs more lighthearted episodes, to give the viewers a break between all the high stakes drama and convoluted story arcs. And since they insist on pandering to shippers, to allow said shippers to actually see the couples being, you know, happy together, not the umpteenth scene in which one person is forced to watch while their partner is tortured by some maniac.

[swanpride]

Yeah, that was certainly an issue with season 5. I kind of had darkness fatigue.

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If you ask me, the show needs more lighthearted episodes, to give the viewers a break between all the high stakes drama and convoluted story arcs. And since they insist on pandering to shippers, to allow said shippers to actually see the couples being, you know, happy together, not the umpteenth scene in which one person is forced to watch while their partner is tortured by some maniac.

The thing that I believe is that since they are together the only thing they can think/come up with is to have continuous agnst for Fitz and Simmons. Personally I don't like them as a couple and I don't like the story that was built around said relationship. Overall I have issues with their supposedly "great love story" that I believe that I can poke many holes in but overall the angst has to be like cat nip at this point for the shippers, in my opinion. Their supposed favorite couple keeps on getting sepreated because I believe that the writers can only do that and it's not like the writing likes to repeat even more tired old plot points over the course of the seasons (because I would say it does, a lot).

Edited March 25, 2020 by TVSpectator

[swanpride]

You know that part of the reason why they keep doing it is because the actor if Fitz is in high demand and therefore not as available anymore? That's for example why he didn't time travel with the others, he was shooting a movie.

[TVSpectator]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

You know that part of the reason why they keep doing it is because the actor if Fitz is in high demand and therefore not as available anymore? That's for example why he didn't time travel with the others, he was shooting a movie.

All I know was that he filmed one movie between seasons 4 and 5 but that doesn't explain any of the angst that the show put him and Simmons through the show's entire run. It's like they wanted a "tragic" couple and thought that the only way to do it is to repeat the same angst stories (they get sepreated they reunite, they met someone else/ fall in love with another who always end up dying, one or both of them does something horriable and the other acts like it doesn't matter at all to them,  one or both of them gets kidnapped wash and repeat...) over and over again. At this point what is the purpose? It's sort of like they want to not only have their cake but eat it too, in my opinion.

Edited March 25, 2020 by TVSpectator