Season 4: Good-bye Ben Stone

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah they could’ve had a case link back to dirty cops, one of them being the father, and followed up on bringing him to justice. The kid was remorseful and didn’t mean to shoot a bystander and he was understandably scared of the gun dealer, it doesn’t justify what he did but it does make him somewhat sympathetic. The father was just rotten. I wonder how the kid turned out - he seemed to have a conscience and was horrified that his dad got someone killed to protect him, I wonder if he would distance himself from his dad going forward, or if he became worse believing he could get away with anything. It would’ve been a good episode to follow up on.

It really would have. I'm sure the father would have gotten in trouble again. A guy like that couldn't stay out of it. If his son got away from him he might have a chance. If he stayed would he eventually become like his father or at least think he could get away with anything. If he became the latter eventually he'd go against his father and that could be really bad. His father might not be able to handle him. Hopefully, he got away from it.  

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Also I watched Sanctuary last night and I still vehemently disagree with Adam at the end - I think on a retrial the jury would’ve convicted the defendant because Shambala wouldn’t be allowed to distract them, I think the reason the jury hung was because of Berger, some of the jurors disliked him more than they disliked the defendant and were so angry that Berger got a slap on the wrist for the hit and run, and Berger came off as racist and elitist, so they decided they understood the defendant’s anger. If Berger hadn’t been allowed to testify, the jury would’ve convicted IMO. So I think Adam was dead wrong to decide not to retry the case. It’s a thought provoking episode, as I understood a lot of points of view, I liked how Stone wanted someone to take responsibility for the crime and was upset about it, but I also understood Kincaid saying she didn’t know how she would react due to a history of injustice against blacks. I liked Van Buren standing up for her detectives and telling the reverend that no one got to come into her precinct and accuse her detectives of bias, but I thought Adam was also right when he said there’s a reason for people like Reverend Ott, to remind us we have a long way to go. And I couldn’t help but wonder what the outcome would’ve been if a black driver had killed a Jewish child in a hit and run in a Jewish neighborhood, would the result have been the same? It’s a very interesting and thought provoking episode, but I disagreed with Adam at the end, the case should’ve been retried and I think a jury would’ve convicted if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present that defense and in particular call Berger to the stand.

 

I agree. The jurors problem was with Berger. If they retried without him, they would have convicted. I also liked Claire's point of view because she's right. There is a horrible history of injustice and it really isn't a stretch for them to think it was on purpose. If the situation was reverse I think the same thing would have happened. Both have a horrible history of injustice. I love Van Buren for standing up to the Reverend. He thought he could just walk in there, do what he wanted and say what he wanted but she was quick to correct him on that.  

[Xeliou66]

Season 4 is filled with strong episodes, it’s on all day on WE today and I’m really enjoying them

Born Bad is one of L&O’s sadder and more tragic cases, with both victim and perp being teens. The perp may have been a violent psychopath but it was still kind of sad seeing him completely give up on his life at such a young age. But he deserved a harsh punishment, he brutally killed another kid in a dispute over money. I liked Ben’s conversation with Adam at the end, Adam always had such great scenes. Good detective work as well with Briscoe/Logan sorting through a variety of sleazy suspects to get to the truth.

The Pursuit of Happiness is a solid episode, another one with good detective work from Briscoe/Logan. I liked Logan noticing the type of lab gloves the boyfriend wore and getting forensics to check that the powder from the glove was on the murder weapon. The stuff about cross racial identifications at the trial was interesting, the defense lawyer was kind of slimy with how he didn’t let Stone know about the expert he was calling, and I liked Judge Quinn calling him out. It’s an interesting episode.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 4 is filled with strong episodes, it’s on all day on WE today and I’m really enjoying them

Born Bad is one of L&O’s sadder and more tragic cases, with both victim and perp being teens. The perp may have been a violent psychopath but it was still kind of sad seeing him completely give up on his life at such a young age. But he deserved a harsh punishment, he brutally killed another kid in a dispute over money. I liked Ben’s conversation with Adam at the end, Adam always had such great scenes. Good detective work as well with Briscoe/Logan sorting through a variety of sleazy suspects to get to the truth.

Yeah, it was interesting that he ended up believing his own lawyer's defense. I didn't expect that to happen. What he did was horrible but it was sad seeing him give up and decide they were all right about him. I also like Stone'squestioning of his mother on the stand. She clearly didn't think out the theory when he pointed out that she was pregnant and if it was true she shouldn't have the baby. 
 

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The Pursuit of Happiness is a solid episode, another one with good detective work from Briscoe/Logan. I liked Logan noticing the type of lab gloves the boyfriend wore and getting forensics to check that the powder from the glove was on the murder weapon. The stuff about cross racial identifications at the trial was interesting, the defense lawyer was kind of slimy with how he didn’t let Stone know about the expert he was calling, and I liked Judge Quinn calling him out. It’s an interesting episode.

 

The lawyer was very slimy. That cross racial identification was slimy. I do feel sorry for Irina. She didn't have a lot of options. I'm sure they'll marry once he's released. Maybe even before then. 

[Xeliou66]

On 7/5/2023 at 3:08 AM, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, it was interesting that he ended up believing his own lawyer's defense. I didn't expect that to happen. What he did was horrible but it was sad seeing him give up and decide they were all right about him. I also like Stone'squestioning of his mother on the stand. She clearly didn't think out the theory when he pointed out that she was pregnant and if it was true she shouldn't have the baby. 
 

The lawyer was very slimy. That cross racial identification was slimy. I do feel sorry for Irina. She didn't have a lot of options. I'm sure they'll marry once he's released. Maybe even before then. 

Yeah Born Bad is a tragic case, both killer and victim came from such rough backgrounds and the murder was a senseless dispute over a small amount of money. It’s a good episode, and it was interesting how the killer wound up believing his lawyer’s defense and wanted to be locked up for life. Ben may have been right that he was pleading for the wrong reason but Adam was correct in telling him to take the plea.

The victim is The Pursuit of Happiness was kind of a sorry person it seemed, but I didn’t feel a lot of sympathy for his widow, she chose to marry him and come to America with him. And yeah the defense attorney was slimy with how he didn’t notify the prosecution about his witness on cross racial identifications, I liked Quinn calling him out on it. 

[andromeda331]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Born Bad is a tragic case, both killer and victim came from such rough backgrounds and the murder was a senseless dispute over a small amount of money. It’s a good episode, and it was interesting how the killer wound up believing his lawyer’s defense and wanted to be locked up for life. Ben may have been right that he was pleading for the wrong reason but Adam was correct in telling him to take the plea.

Yeah, Adam was right. He should have taken the plea. 
 

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The victim is The Pursuit of Happiness was kind of a sorry person it seemed, but I didn’t feel a lot of sympathy for his widow, she chose to marry him and come to America with him. And yeah the defense attorney was slimy with how he didn’t notify the prosecution about his witness on cross racial identifications, I liked Quinn calling him out on it. 

 

She might not have had a good life or good options in Russia. It's a risk to marry and move to America when you don't know the person but it does happen. Russia and other countries. There was a Forensic Files episode where a woman from the Phillippines did that and the money he sent to her parents' which was a condition of the marriage was not a lot in USA (I think like few hundred or maybe five hundred dollars) was a lot of money to the family. Of course he was a controlling ass who later murdered her. I still feel bad for women who agree to it. They are hoping for a better life, many not have a lot of options or to send money back to their family. It's not a good idea especially since like this case the husband held all the cards. He divorces her and she gets sent back to Russia.

I do like Quinn calling out the defense lawyer and Ben's comment about how he could be murdered and the murderer could get off by the cross racial identification and he finds that comforting.

In looking up the imdb episode notes I didn't know that that Dann Florek aka Captain Cragon directed the episode. 

[andromeda331]

Kids- I love that while looking for the bullet the cops come across a few others. It was funny and at the same time I don't think I'd ever find myself standing there or walking in the area. I wish there had been a follow up about bullets or even just in the episode at the end mentioning they came from a robbery case or something. 

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Kids- I love that while looking for the bullet the cops come across a few others. It was funny and at the same time I don't think I'd ever find myself standing there or walking in the area. I wish there had been a follow up about bullets or even just in the episode at the end mentioning they came from a robbery case or something. 

I’ve said before I really wish there had been a follow up to Kids where the dirty ex cop/father of the perp was brought down along with his dirty cop friends for murdering the witness. The ending had the perfect set up for that with Lennie warning the guy there was no statute of limitations on murder, it’s too bad they never returned to it. It’s a very good episode - the son was more sympathetic than the dad, he didn’t mean to kill an innocent kid, he shouldn’t have gotten a gun and gone after the guy but it was understandable he was scared. He seemed horrified when he found out his dad got a witness killed at the end, and I wonder what their relationship would be like going forward, I doubt he would ever see his dad in the same light. It would’ve been an excellent episode to follow up on, it’s really a missed opportunity that they never did.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve said before I really wish there had been a follow up to Kids where the dirty ex cop/father of the perp was brought down along with his dirty cop friends for murdering the witness. The ending had the perfect set up for that with Lennie warning the guy there was no statute of limitations on murder, it’s too bad they never returned to it. It’s a very good episode - the son was more sympathetic than the dad, he didn’t mean to kill an innocent kid, he shouldn’t have gotten a gun and gone after the guy but it was understandable he was scared. He seemed horrified when he found out his dad got a witness killed at the end, and I wonder what their relationship would be like going forward, I doubt he would ever see his dad in the same light. It would’ve been an excellent episode to follow up on, it’s really a missed opportunity that they never did.

I agree it really was. The kid did apologize to the parents and was horrified that his father got the witness killed. It would have been great to see what happened next.  What was their relationship like? Did he end up becoming like his father or did he hate him? Would his father go to jail in a follow up? Would the kid still have guilt? It would have made for a great episode.

[Xeliou66]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree it really was. The kid did apologize to the parents and was horrified that his father got the witness killed. It would have been great to see what happened next.  What was their relationship like? Did he end up becoming like his father or did he hate him? Would his father go to jail in a follow up? Would the kid still have guilt? It would have made for a great episode.

Yes that would all be very interesting to explore - I have a feeling the son wouldn’t see the dad in the same light after the events of the episode. And it would’ve been satisfying seeing the dad brought down. Since his dirty cop buddies got a witness killed, I doubt that that was the only crime those cops committed, they could’ve had a case in a future episode link to dirty cops and then connect that to the gun dealer’s murder. Truly a missed opportunity.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes that would all be very interesting to explore - I have a feeling the son wouldn’t see the dad in the same light after the events of the episode. And it would’ve been satisfying seeing the dad brought down. Since his dirty cop buddies got a witness killed, I doubt that that was the only crime those cops committed, they could’ve had a case in a future episode link to dirty cops and then connect that to the gun dealer’s murder. Truly a missed opportunity.

I doubt it was the only time too. They were way to quit to get a witness killed to help get their buddy's son off for the crime he actually did commit and the person he killed was another kid, an innocent one. That should have been enough for them to look into the cops and surely they would find a bunch of stuff. It's odd that they never looked into those cops. That's dirty as hell.  

[Xeliou66]

I watched two excellent season 4 episodes today, Apocrypha and American Dream 

Apocrypha is a strong episode with the creepy cult leader and the ending where his followers committed suicide was chilling. I liked how Logan/Briscoe tracked down who the deceased was and how the cult leader told her to build the bomb, and I liked how Lennie realized “Avenue of our Lord” or whatever stood for Avenue C. Ben did a good job prosecuting the case and I liked his closing argument a lot. I’m not sure why Ben thought he sold the jury his own snake oil, as Claire said there was no question the cult leader was responsible, it was a tough case to prove but Ben proved it, so I thought that was a puzzling line.

American Dream is a great episode for Ben, and Philip Swann is one of the best villains in L&O history. So smug, and it made me laugh how he kept calling everyone by their first name, which Stone called him out on. I loved when Swann asked if Stone lacked a sense of humor and Ben replied “about murder I have none, sir” that was classic Ben. I liked how they circled back to nail Swann for having the witness killed after he was acquitted of the initial murder, good plot. 

[andromeda331]

On 10/6/2023 at 5:19 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched two excellent season 4 episodes today, Apocrypha and American Dream 

Apocrypha is a strong episode with the creepy cult leader and the ending where his followers committed suicide was chilling. I liked how Logan/Briscoe tracked down who the deceased was and how the cult leader told her to build the bomb, and I liked how Lennie realized “Avenue of our Lord” or whatever stood for Avenue C. Ben did a good job prosecuting the case and I liked his closing argument a lot. I’m not sure why Ben thought he sold the jury his own snake oil, as Claire said there was no question the cult leader was responsible, it was a tough case to prove but Ben proved it, so I thought that was a puzzling line.

Yeah, it was a good episode. They did a good job showing how creepy the cult leader was. I like Stone calling him an religious con artist. That's what he was. I'm glad he went to jail but hate that he had his cult members commit suicide. What a psycho. 

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American Dream is a great episode for Ben, and Philip Swann is one of the best villains in L&O history. So smug, and it made me laugh how he kept calling everyone by their first name, which Stone called him out on. I loved when Swann asked if Stone lacked a sense of humor and Ben replied “about murder I have none, sir” that was classic Ben. I liked how they circled back to nail Swann for having the witness killed after he was acquitted of the initial murder, good plot. 

That's one of my favorite episodes. Swann is a really good villain. He's smart but very smug which gets him in the end. He really thinks he's smarter then anyone but he was dumb enough to kill the witness and to sue Ben. He had gotten away with murderer and could have moved on with his life. Nope, he couldn't stop. I like Stone corrected him when Swann says he's an equal to Stone. It was great watching him get nailed for killing the witness. 

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, it was a good episode. They did a good job showing how creepy the cult leader was. I like Stone calling him an religious con artist. That's what he was. I'm glad he went to jail but hate that he had his cult members commit suicide. What a psycho. 

That's one of my favorite episodes. Swann is a really good villain. He's smart but very smug which gets him in the end. He really thinks he's smarter then anyone but he was dumb enough to kill the witness and to sue Ben. He had gotten away with murderer and could have moved on with his life. Nope, he couldn't stop. I like Stone corrected him when Swann says he's an equal to Stone. It was great watching him get nailed for killing the witness. 

Apocrypha is a good episode, that ending was chilling, I would say this episode along with Prince of Darkness have the most chilling endings in L&O history. The cult leader had a complete hold over those people and I liked how Ben showed the jury that. The stuff with Lennie and Mike investigating was good as well.

Swann is one of the best villains in L&O history, very memorable, and yeah he just couldn’t help but try to rub everything in Ben’s face which is what brought him down eventually. It’s a great plot.

Season 4 is excellent, I love the cast, Briscoe/Logan are probably my second favorite detective pairing behind Briscoe/Green, and Van Buren and Kincaid were good additions, hard to replace Cragen and Robinette but they did a good job, Anita is one of my favorite characters on the show. A lot of people think the show didn’t hit its stride until Jack came on, but I think the Ben Stone years are great as well. 

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 4 is excellent, I love the cast, Briscoe/Logan are probably my second favorite detective pairing behind Briscoe/Green, and Van Buren and Kincaid were good additions, hard to replace Cragen and Robinette but they did a good job, Anita is one of my favorite characters on the show. A lot of people think the show didn’t hit its stride until Jack came on, but I think the Ben Stone years are great as well. 

It really is one of the best seasons of the show. So many great episodes. I like Briscoe and Logan after Briscoe and Green too. I hate that they were pressured to replace Cragen and Robinette but I liked Claire and love Van Buren. Van Buren was really the best replacement. She immediately became one of my favorites. She was awesome. 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

It really is one of the best seasons of the show. So many great episodes. I like Briscoe and Logan after Briscoe and Green too. I hate that they were pressured to replace Cragen and Robinette but I liked Claire and love Van Buren. Van Buren was really the best replacement. She immediately became one of my favorites. She was awesome. 

Anita was awesome, she’s one of the best characters on the show. Claire was a good ADA also. Cragen and Robinette were strong characters but Anita and Claire were equally good. Season 4 is a very strong season, there are no weak episodes in it. What are your favorites from season 4? So many good ones, but for me, Profile, Apocrypha, American Dream, Big Bang and Sanctuary come to mind as excellent. 

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Anita was awesome, she’s one of the best characters on the show. Claire was a good ADA also. Cragen and Robinette were strong characters but Anita and Claire were equally good. Season 4 is a very strong season, there are no weak episodes in it. What are your favorites from season 4? So many good ones, but for me, Profile, Apocrypha, American Dream, Big Bang and Sanctuary come to mind as excellent. 

Sweeps, Profile, Apocrypha, American Dream, Golden Years, Big Bang, Breeder,  Sanctuary and Doubles.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Sweeps, Profile, Apocrypha, American Dream, Golden Years, Big Bang, Breeder,  Sanctuary and Doubles.

All good ones. Apocrypha and American Dream are terrific back to back episodes.   I love Profile for the testimony of the old guy who survived the shooting, that was great, and for the exciting ending, that was the one time Ben almost got held in contempt. Sanctuary is a memorable and compelling episode but I strongly disagreed with Adam at the end, the only time on the show I strongly disagreed with him that I can recall - I was certain the guy would be convicted in a second trial if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present the same witnesses. 
If I had to pick a top 5 for season 4 it would probably be 

Profile
Apocrypha    
Big Bang   
American Dream     
Sanctuary

Other good season 4 episodes are Snatched, Kids and Old Friends. I know people have mixed feelings about Old Friends and Ben’s exit, but I really like his last scene with Adam.

[buttersister]

59 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I really like his last scene with Adam.

Yes. I saw it again last night and thought how well it was done. It’s Adam who gets up and walks over to Ben. But it’s Ben who reaches out and touches Adam. 

Never liked another DA as well until Jack finally, against so many remarks to the contrary over the years, became DA.

[ML89]

Briscoe/Logan is my top team (I grew to really like Green and he was great with Briscoe, Fontana and Lupo. I also like Lupo/Bernard).

Season 4 has a lot of great eps. I showed Profile to some friends who really weren't that familiar with L&O (I know, shocking) and they thought it was great - if I had to show someone L&O when it cooks, that's a top contender.

Apocrypha's ending is just so chilling and sad. The best L&Os, you get involved in all the characters and that girl who bonds with Logan is terrific.

Ones from 4 that I love so far not mentioned: Pride and Joy, Golden Years, Mayhem, Censure, Nurture.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by ML89

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, buttersister said:

Yes. I saw it again last night and thought how well it was done. It’s Adam who gets up and walks over to Ben. But it’s Ben who reaches out and touches Adam. 

Never liked another DA as well until Jack finally, against so many remarks to the contrary over the years, became DA.

Yeah I loved the final scene between Ben and Adam - they had a lot of respect for each other and you can tell Adam was sad to see him go, Adam could say a lot with his facial expressions, and while not a lot was said between them it was a nice scene. Adam was an awesome DA, no one could replace him or do as good of a job, other than Jack - I liked Arthur pretty good, I know he’s polarizing, Nora was mainly bland and didn’t have enough personality but she had some good moments, but no one could replace Adam.

1 hour ago, ML89 said:

Briscoe/Logan is my top team (I grew to really like Green and he was great with Fontana and Lupo. I also like Lupo/Bernard).

Season 4 has a lot of great eps. I showed Profile to some friends who really weren't that familiar with L&O (I know, shocking) and they thought it was great - if I had to show someone L&O when it cooks, that's a top contender.

Apocrypha's ending is just so chilling and sad. The best L&Os, you get involved in all the characters and that girl who bonds with Logan is terrific.

Ones from 4 that I love so far not mentioned: Pride and Joy, Golden Years, Mayhem, Censure, Nurture.

 

 

Briscoe/Logan is my number 2 pairing behind Briscoe/Green. I like almost all of the detective pairings, only ones I dislike are Beauty Queen Cassady, I’m not a big fan of Curtis, and I didn’t like Falco when he temporarily replaced Green. 

Profile is awesome I agree - like I said the scene of the old man who survived the shooting testifying against the perp made it a great episode, but it also had good detective stuff and a very good ending. It might be my favorite season 4 episode. 

I like all season 4 episodes pretty good to be honest - Censure is a very unusual episode but it was done well and Thayer was such a smug, unlikable creep. 
Pride and Joy is good as well, it was fairly straightforward but had good detective work and the perp was a sociopath. 
Another one I like is Snatched, where Schiff’s friend’s son was kidnapped but turned out to be involved in the plot. It was interesting that even after all the son did the dad was still willing to go to jail to help him flee before being sentenced, and I liked how Adam didn’t hesitate to have the father charged despite it clearly saddening him. That episode had a strong plot. 
 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Other good season 4 episodes are Snatched, Kids and Old Friends. I know people have mixed feelings about Old Friends and Ben’s exit, but I really like his last scene with Adam.

Yeah I'm one of those who has mixed feelings about that episode. I just don't like Stone quitting because the witness was killed. They all acted like if she hadn't testifed she would still be alive. Especially the witness. There was no way the Russian mob was going to leave her alone if she didn't testify. She was still a liability and they would have killed her. The only chance she had was to testify and going into witness protection. She never really seemed to understand that. There was a much stronger episode earlier that would have made more sense for Stone to quit which was Sanctuary. I do like the last scene between Adam and Stone.

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah I'm one of those who has mixed feelings about that episode. I just don't like Stone quitting because the witness was killed. They all acted like if she hadn't testifed she would still be alive. Especially the witness. There was no way the Russian mob was going to leave her alone if she didn't testify. She was still a liability and they would have killed her. The only chance she had was to testify and going into witness protection. She never really seemed to understand that. There was a much stronger episode earlier that would have made more sense for Stone to quit which was Sanctuary. I do like the last scene between Adam and Stone.

Yeah I have some mixed feelings about Stone resigning in Old Friends, and while it might’ve been more fitting for his character to resign in Sanctuary, I would’ve hated to have seen his relationship with Adam end on a sour note and I liked that they had a warm goodbye. Like I’ve said before - I really don’t get why Adam didn’t have the murderer retried in Sanctuary, and I didn’t agree when he said he didn’t think a jury would convict - if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present the same witnesses, and especially if she wasn’t able to call the hit and run driver, I believe the jury would convict. That jury hung because some of them were so angry at the hit and run driver who was kind of an elitist prick getting a slap on the wrist that they identified with the defendant’s anger and chose not to convict. It seemed like no one realized this, Adam should’ve, so the last scene felt off, and so I’m glad Stone didn’t leave there, even though it might’ve been more fitting with his character given his strong sense of justice.

[ML89]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Another one I like is Snatched, where Schiff’s friend’s son was kidnapped but turned out to be involved in the plot.

I love the detective work in this one (the couple in the South Bronx with the wife who wrote down the license plate number!) and the lawyer from Miami is hilarious. Plus you get the conflict between the dad and Adam.

I can't stand Curtis, he's my least fave of them all, ahead of even Detective Beauty Queen, if only because he's there longer. Falco gets a few points for telling Fontana "you're high maintenance."

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Censure is a very unusual episode but it was done well and Thayer was such a smug, unlikable creep. 

Yes, he is. Makes you wonder why they picked him for Rhoda's husband and if that wasn't why the show didn't make it. Censure has that great chase at Bethesda Fountain too. That's what I miss in modern L&O - too often the detective side relies on Detective Yee with the computer instead of Cosgrove and Shaw following leads on the street.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

I love the detective work in this one (the couple in the South Bronx with the wife who wrote down the license plate number!) and the lawyer from Miami is hilarious. Plus you get the conflict between the dad and Adam.

I can't stand Curtis, he's my least fave of them all, ahead of even Detective Beauty Queen, if only because he's there longer. Falco gets a few points for telling Fontana "you're high maintenance."

Yes, he is. Makes you wonder why they picked him for Rhoda's husband and if that wasn't why the show didn't make it. Censure has that great chase at Bethesda Fountain too. That's what I miss in modern L&O - too often the detective side relies on Detective Yee with the computer instead of Cosgrove and Shaw following leads on the street.

I also love the lawyer from Miami in Snacthed, he was a colorful guy. I also liked the detective work in it. 
Amen about Curtis, he was so damn self righteous and smug, not to mention sometimes hypocritical. At times I wondered if they wanted viewers to dislike him he was so irritating.        
I hear what you’re saying about the detective work, on one hand technology has advanced in recent years so it makes sense they use it more, but I would also like to see Shaw/Cosgrove follow leads on the streets more. Overall though the detective work is good on the revival IMO, it’s the legal cases that are frequently shaky, with either a judge tossing out evidence for some flimsy reason or a witness changing their story at the last minute. I like the revival more than most it seems but I do hope they improve the legal writing - they improved the detective stuff a lot last year by bringing in Shaw and fleshing out Cosgrove, so hopefully they’ll improve the legal side in the future. 
Back to season 4 - it’s a really strong season with a great lineup of characters. I don’t think any of the episodes are weak, and there is a lot of memorable stuff in it.

[andromeda331]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:03 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I have some mixed feelings about Stone resigning in Old Friends, and while it might’ve been more fitting for his character to resign in Sanctuary, I would’ve hated to have seen his relationship with Adam end on a sour note and I liked that they had a warm goodbye. Like I’ve said before - I really don’t get why Adam didn’t have the murderer retried in Sanctuary, and I didn’t agree when he said he didn’t think a jury would convict - if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present the same witnesses, and especially if she wasn’t able to call the hit and run driver, I believe the jury would convict. That jury hung because some of them were so angry at the hit and run driver who was kind of an elitist prick getting a slap on the wrist that they identified with the defendant’s anger and chose not to convict. It seemed like no one realized this, Adam should’ve, so the last scene felt off, and so I’m glad Stone didn’t leave there, even though it might’ve been more fitting with his character given his strong sense of justice.

Yeah, I don't get why Adam didn't have him retried. I agree I think they could have gotten a conviction this time around. They knew why the jury didn't convict and could have worked around the jury's anger of the driver.

[ML89]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:10 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Amen about Curtis, he was so damn self righteous and smug, not to mention sometimes hypocritical. At times I wondered if they wanted viewers to dislike him he was so irritating.        

Drove me nuts...

 

On 10/10/2023 at 11:10 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I hear what you’re saying about the detective work, on one hand technology has advanced in recent years so it makes sense they use it more, but I would also like to see Shaw/Cosgrove follow leads on the streets more. Overall though the detective work is good on the revival IMO, it’s the legal cases that are frequently shaky, with either a judge tossing out evidence for some flimsy reason or a witness changing their story at the last minute. I like the revival more than most it seems but I do hope they improve the legal writing - they improved the detective stuff a lot last year by bringing in Shaw and fleshing out Cosgrove, so hopefully they’ll improve the legal side in the future. 

The detective side really has improved with the Shaw/Cosgrove team - I'm beginning to like Cosgrove when I couldn't stand him with Bernard (although we're never going to find out what happened to Lupo now!). Shaw's arrival just jumpstarted that whole side.

The legal side, I agree, is in need of a similar jumpstart. I don't like any of the lawyers except Jack and they've had him do some questionable things too. I think the characters could be a bit better if the writing was - speaking of Censure, for example. At least Claire tried to tell Ben and Adam that she was compromised, while in Bias, Price never tells them half of what's going on. The legal cases aren't cited any more either. Like the detectives trawling through bars and down the mean streets, Jack citing precedents is sorely missed.

 

 

 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, ML89 said:

Drove me nuts...

 

The detective side really has improved with the Shaw/Cosgrove team - I'm beginning to like Cosgrove when I couldn't stand him with Bernard (although we're never going to find out what happened to Lupo now!). Shaw's arrival just jumpstarted that whole side.

The legal side, I agree, is in need of a similar jumpstart. I don't like any of the lawyers except Jack and they've had him do some questionable things too. I think the characters could be a bit better if the writing was - speaking of Censure, for example. At least Claire tried to tell Ben and Adam that she was compromised, while in Bias, Price never tells them half of what's going on. The legal cases aren't cited any more either. Like the detectives trawling through bars and down the mean streets, Jack citing precedents is sorely missed.

 

 

 

Agreed 100% about Cosgrove/Shaw. In season 21, they tried way too hard to make Cosgrove edgy and controversial and non PC and had almost constant conflict between him and Bernard. In season 22 they did a great job of fleshing out Cosgrove and making him well rounded and multilayered and they dialed back his edgy personality, and him and Shaw have great chemistry, Shaw’s usually smooth but sometimes intense personality works really well with Cosgrove’s style. While I liked Bernard, he had developed a much edgier personality in season 21 than he had with Lupo, I guess that made some sense after so many years on the job, but him and Cosgrove together were just too tense and edgy and they didn’t do a good job introducing Cosgrove. Shaw’s introduction on the other hand was done really well and Cosgrove was nicely fleshed out and now the detective stuff flows really well. 
I hope they can get the legal stuff improved in season 23 - I don’t dislike Price/Maroun but they are pretty low key, the main issue is the lack of stuff such as citing precedents/motion hearings/good legal arguments, all too often a judge will toss something based on flimsy logic, or they’ll allow a ridiculous line of questioning, or new information will appear out of the blue, or key testimony won’t be shown. It’s noticeable how much stronger the detective side is than the legal side, hopefully they’ll get that figured out next season the way they drastically improved the detective stuff last season.

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, I don't get why Adam didn't have him retried. I agree I think they could have gotten a conviction this time around. They knew why the jury didn't convict and could have worked around the jury's anger of the driver.

Agreed completely about this, it was obvious the jury didn’t convict because of how Shambala presented her case and particularly they hated the hit and run driver, some of them were so angry about him not going to jail that they decided not to send the defendant to jail either. If Shambala’s defense hadn’t been allowed, the jury would’ve convicted, and since the judge threw it out at the end of the case, it wouldn’t have been allowed in a new trial. I thought the ending of Adam deciding not to retry just didn’t make sense because of that.

[buttersister]

I believed, in this case, Adam’s thoughts were political. For the city, anyway.

[Xeliou66]

46 minutes ago, buttersister said:

I believed, in this case, Adam’s thoughts were political. For the city, anyway.

Yes that was definitely a major factor, but Adam said that if he thought a jury would convict he would try the case himself, and I thought that was total bullshit, like I said, the jury would’ve almost certainly convicted if Shambala hadn’t been allowed to call the witnesses she did. So that just felt very off to me. I get wanting the case to be over to end the tension, but I didn’t buy that no jury would convict. 

[andromeda331]

54 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes that was definitely a major factor, but Adam said that if he thought a jury would convict he would try the case himself, and I thought that was total bullshit, like I said, the jury would’ve almost certainly convicted if Shambala hadn’t been allowed to call the witnesses she did. So that just felt very off to me. I get wanting the case to be over to end the tension, but I didn’t buy that no jury would convict. 

I didn't either.

[Xeliou66]

26 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I didn't either.

The ending just felt weirdly done, Stone didn’t even try to argue that if Shambala wasn’t allowed to call her witnesses then the jury would probably convict. Adam’s reasoning just didn’t work with me. Like I said I’m glad it wasn’t Ben’s exit, even though I could see him leaving due to his strong sense of justice and his frustration with the case.

[Xeliou66]

Season 4 is on today, so many strong episodes this season

Pride and Joy is a pretty good case, the perp was a sociopath, he hated his dad because he saw him as beneath him, and Ben was right at the end that that much rage wouldn’t go away with a degree from Princeton - he would’ve been in trouble at some point. I didn’t get why the mom chose her sociopath son over her daughter, she was willing to call her daughter a liar in court to try to get her son off the hook, I guess she just couldn’t accept that her son was a monster, pretty much what Olivet said.

Apocrypha is a strong episode, with the creepy cult leader, the ending with the followers committing suicide is chilling. The trial scenes were good and I liked Ben’s closing, and it was interesting how the cult leader did actually believe most of what he said, maybe he belonged in a mental institution but he wouldn’t plead insanity, but the jury got the right verdict, he did manipulate the woman into planting the bomb.

American Dream is a classic episode, one of the best for Ben, with a very memorable perp, it cracked me up how Swann kept on referring to Stone and others by their first name, even in court, he was such a smug prick and it was satisfying seeing Stone nail him at the end. And I loved the exchange when Swann asked if Stone lacked a sense of humor and Ben replied “about murder, sir, I have none” - that was vintage Ben.

There are so many strong episodes in season 4 it’s hard to pick favorites. 

[andromeda331]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:12 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Season 4 is on today, so many strong episodes this season

Pride and Joy is a pretty good case, the perp was a sociopath, he hated his dad because he saw him as beneath him, and Ben was right at the end that that much rage wouldn’t go away with a degree from Princeton - he would’ve been in trouble at some point. I didn’t get why the mom chose her sociopath son over her daughter, she was willing to call her daughter a liar in court to try to get her son off the hook, I guess she just couldn’t accept that her son was a monster, pretty much what Olivet said. 

I can't believe the mother either. I guess she was in deep denial. I feel worse for the daughter. She's stuck with a mother who would do anything to get her son off the hook. I'm sure that's how it went for her in the house all her life. The mother did nothing while her son treated his father, her husband like crap. How do you do that? What's wrong with her? He was clearly a monster. 

Quote

Apocrypha is a strong episode, with the creepy cult leader, the ending with the followers committing suicide is chilling. The trial scenes were good and I liked Ben’s closing, and it was interesting how the cult leader did actually believe most of what he said, maybe he belonged in a mental institution but he wouldn’t plead insanity, but the jury got the right verdict, he did manipulate the woman into planting the bomb.

That's really the only part that surprised me. Most cult leaders don't believe what they say. They only do it for the power, money and control it gives them. I'm glad he went to jail. Hopefully he won't be able to influence anyone else again.

Quote

 

American Dream is a classic episode, one of the best for Ben, with a very memorable perp, it cracked me up how Swann kept on referring to Stone and others by their first name, even in court, he was such a smug prick and it was satisfying seeing Stone nail him at the end. And I loved the exchange when Swann asked if Stone lacked a sense of humor and Ben replied “about murder, sir, I have none” - that was vintage Ben.

There are so many strong episodes in season 4 it’s hard to pick favorites.

 

I loved Ben taking Swann down. He was such a smug bastard. For all belief that he was smarter then everyone else. He would have stopped while he was a head. He got away scot free for a murder. A smart person would have walked away. But nope he had to go further by suing Ben and the DAs office. He gave himself away by bragging that it wasn't his first case. 

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I can't believe the mother either. I guess she was in deep denial. I feel worse for the daughter. She's stuck with a mother who would do anything to get her son off the hook. I'm sure that's how it went for her in the house all her life. The mother did nothing while her son treated his father, her husband like crap. How do you do that? What's wrong with her? He was clearly a monster. 

That's really the only part that surprised me. Most cult leaders don't believe what they say. They only do it for the power, money and control it gives them. I'm glad he went to jail. Hopefully he won't be able to influence anyone else again.

I loved Ben taking Swann down. He was such a smug bastard. For all belief that he was smarter then everyone else. He would have stopped while he was a head. He got away scot free for a murder. A smart person would have walked away. But nope he had to go further by suing Ben and the DAs office. He gave himself away by bragging that it wasn't his first case. 

Yeah the mom from Pride and Joy was in serious denial, and she threw away her relationship with her daughter by lying to try to get her sociopath son off the hook, I have a feeling the daughter went to live with her uncle for good after that. The son was a monster and the mom was enabling him.

Apocrypha is a really good episode, strong investigation and trial. It was interesting how the cult leader actually believed what he was saying, perhaps he belonged in a mental institution like his lawyer said, but he gave them no choice but to send him to prison. The ending was chilling and very memorable.

Swann is one of my favorite villains in the show, so very smug, very satisfying to see Ben nail him and tell Swann “you don’t know me, you never did” at the end.