Season 4: Good-bye Ben Stone

[katie9918]

I’ve always wondered how Shambala Green managed to truly justify it to herself in Sanctuary. If she truly believed her defense, she was admitting insanity or some mental deficiency on behalf of a POC and justifying a murder on those grounds. If she didn’t really believe it, she was truly a huge part of the problem.

[Prairie Rose]

I tend to believe she didn't believe her own defense. Ben had a great line about it: "By infantilizing your own people, you are guaranteeing it will happen again."

[Xeliou66]

Regarding Sanctuary - to an extent I understood the anger the defendant felt about the situation, but it was no excuse to go out and kill an innocent person. He belonged in prison. I strongly disagreed with Schiff deciding not to retry the case, because I think they would’ve gotten a conviction at a retrial, if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present her defense and especially if she wasn’t allowed to call Berger to the stand, I think there would be a conviction. I think the jury deadlocked mainly because of Berger, even though his testimony didn’t have much to do with the case, he came across as elitist and racist, and I think some of the jurors were more angry at him than they were at the defendant and they sympathized with the defendant’s anger at him, so they voted to acquit. If he hadn’t testified, I think the jury would’ve convicted.

[Prairie Rose]

I never understood why the judge allowed Shambala to bring in Berger as a witness anyway. Yeah, they probably would have won that case if not for him.

The first time I saw this episode was after the release of My Big Fat Greek Wedding. It was a jarring switch from Berger to the Greek dad who can cure every ill with a bottle of Windex! It's a credit to the late Michael Constantine's talent that he played both roles (and many more!) so well.

[Xeliou66]

Discord was just on, and it will always be hilarious to me how Stone calls the rapist rock star “Mr C Square” instead of using his actual last name. I thought the defense made a mistake in putting C Square on the stand, he was so arrogant and smug I think he rubbed the jury the wrong way, but I guess they thought they had to rebut the victim’s story. Kincaid screwed up by not telling anyone the victim had talked to a lawyer, she should’ve told Stone and Schiff, it was interesting how pissed Stone got at her, Stone was always so by the book, and it was notable how he called her “Ms Kincaid”, Stone was always very formal with someone when he was pissed at them, similar to how he would call Schiff “sir” when he was angry with him. 

[Prairie Rose]

22 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Discord was just on, and it will always be hilarious to me how Stone calls the rapist rock star “Mr C Square” instead of using his actual last name. I thought the defense made a mistake in putting C Square on the stand, he was so arrogant and smug I think he rubbed the jury the wrong way, but I guess they thought they had to rebut the victim’s story. Kincaid screwed up by not telling anyone the victim had talked to a lawyer, she should’ve told Stone and Schiff, it was interesting how pissed Stone got at her, Stone was always so by the book, and it was notable how he called her “Ms Kincaid”, Stone was always very formal with someone when he was pissed at them, similar to how he would call Schiff “sir” when he was angry with him. 

Oddly enough, I also found the victim in "Discord" annoying - Julia Wood. She messed up her own case (well, so did Claire) so much that she most likely would have lost if not for Mr. C Square taking the stand.

[Xeliou66]

59 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

Oddly enough, I also found the victim in "Discord" annoying - Julia Wood. She messed up her own case (well, so did Claire) so much that she most likely would have lost if not for Mr. C Square taking the stand.

Yes she messed up the case by talking to a civil lawyer, then again I’m not sure what I would do in her shoes. Claire definitely should’ve told Stone and Schiff about it, and I got why Stone was upset with her, though I thought he was rather harsh by initially requesting she transfer.

I do wonder if the verdict would’ve been not guilty if C Square hadn’t taken the stand - his smugness did rub the jury the wrong way, but if he hadn’t taken the stand they would’ve only heard the prosecution’s side of the story, so I’m not sure.

[Prairie Rose]

26 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes she messed up the case by talking to a civil lawyer, then again I’m not sure what I would do in her shoes. Claire definitely should’ve told Stone and Schiff about it, and I got why Stone was upset with her, though I thought he was rather harsh by initially requesting she transfer.

I do wonder if the verdict would’ve been not guilty if C Square hadn’t taken the stand - his smugness did rub the jury the wrong way, but if he hadn’t taken the stand they would’ve only heard the prosecution’s side of the story, so I’m not sure.

Ironically, Lucy Deakins (Julia Wood) became a lawyer herself years later. Here she is now:

https://www.dunsinglaw.com/about-the-team/lucy-deakins

[Prairie Rose]

The infamous C-Square song was actually sung in a later episode. At least the first line was. In "Privileged" (S5), the troubled addict/suspect locked up in a holding cell was mumbling and humming to himself. Then he started to sing, "one more time on the kitchen floor" and I cracked up.

ETA: "Privileged" will air on WE at 4PM EST this coming Tuesday (3/8). I hope they don't cut this scene!

Edited March 2, 2022 by Prairie Rose

[Prairie Rose]

On 5/11/2014 at 3:24 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Sadly, this would be the last season of the wonderful Ben Stone.  I remember thinking, who could EVER take his place? I missed the last half of this season in its initial run as I was in India at the time, but I do remember Morirarty quitting, and something to do with what AG Reno said at the time. Little did I know that poor Moriarty had gone Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

 

This season had some very powerful episodes.

@GHScorpiosRule, it makes one wonder what would have happened if Dick Wolf had never arranged for his star to meet Janet Reno that fateful night in 1993. If not, might Mr. Moriarty be playing the DA right now in Season 21 of L&O? It's definitely interesting to think about.

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, Prairie Rose said:

@GHScorpiosRule, it makes one wonder what would have happened if Dick Wolf had never arranged for his star to meet Janet Reno that fateful night in 1993. If not, might Mr. Moriarty be playing the DA right now in Season 21 of L&O? It's definitely interesting to think about.

He had started talking to himself on the set and was refusing look into the eyes of the other performers because he believed they were 'stealing his energy.' Ultimately, production resorted attaching aluminum pie pans to sticks to hold up across from him, to mime the other performers, in order to minimize their interactions with him. 

If it wasn't Janet Reno, there would have been another precipitating event/individual that triggered his break.

[Prairie Rose]

20 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

He had started talking to himself on the set and was refusing look into the eyes of the other performers because he believed they were 'stealing his energy.' Ultimately, production resorted attaching aluminum pie pans to sticks to hold up across from him, to mime the other performers, in order to minimize their interactions with him. 

If it wasn't Janet Reno, there would have been another precipitating event/individual that triggered his break.

You're probably right. We'll never know for sure. I wasn't watching at the time (I was in middle school then and L&O wasn't my idea of interesting TV at that age), but did any of the other cast members publicly comment on the Moriarty situation then?

[TakomaSnark]

12 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

You're probably right. We'll never know for sure. I wasn't watching at the time (I was in middle school then and L&O wasn't my idea of interesting TV at that age), but did any of the other cast members publicly comment on the Moriarty situation then?

I don't remember hearing anything at the time but the These Are Their Stories hosts were part of a Zoom fundraiser reunion with several cast members in 2020 and they shared the dish on the podcast about 'Mayhem.' [specific discussion starts around 26:30] 

According to the timeline that the cast shared during that fundraiser, his on set issues were happening well before the Janet Reno incident. Then the Janet Reno thing happens, then he starts talking to himself on set, so they write 'Mayhem' to give him time off for mental health evaluations and he interprets it as 'they're writing me out!' and quits. 

Epatha only worked with him one season and she took a 'can't say anything nice, won't say anything at all' response to discussing him.

Edited March 3, 2022 by TakomaSnark
Fixed Timestamp

[Prairie Rose]

2 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

I don't remember hearing anything at the time but the These Are Their Stories hosts were part of a Zoom fundraiser reunion with several cast members in 2020 and they shared the dish on the podcast about 'Mayhem.' [specific discussion starts around 27:00] 

According to the timeline that the cast shared during that fundraiser, his on set issues were happening well before the Janet Reno incident. Then the Janet Reno thing happens, then he starts talking to himself on set, so they write 'Mayhem' to give him time off for mental health evaluations and he interprets it as 'they're writing me out!' and quits. 

Epatha only worked with him one season and she took a 'can't say anything nice, won't say anything at all' response to discussing him.

Thank you for that link, @TakomaSnark! I didn't know that there was a Zoom reunion - can't wait to watch it. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well it’s all moot now. He was sane enough to participate in the interviews included in the season three DVDS. Supposedly filmed over 10 years after this show premiered.

And Moriarty isn’t Ben Stone, who I ❤️ and have no problem separating the person from the character. It’s because of Stone that I seriously thought I wanted to work for the New York District Attorney’s office when the show premiered. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Prairie Rose]

29 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well it’s all moot now. He was sane enough to participate in the interviews included in the season three season. Supposedly filmed over 10 years after this show premiered.

And Moriarty isn’t Ben Stone, who I ❤️ and have no problem separating the person from the character. It’s because of Stone that I seriously thought I wanted to work for the New York District Attorney’s office when the show premiered. 

In those interviews, Dann Florek said, "Dzundza and Noth were banging heads, then Sorvino and Noth were banging heads, and everybody was banging heads with Michael Moriarty." That must have been one intense place to work those first couple of years.

@GHScorpiosRule, did you write that you wanted to work for the NY DA's office on the old Jump the Shark site (before the site itself, well, jumped the shark)? I loved reading their L&O thread back in the day and I remember someone writing something similar to what you just said.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

@GHScorpiosRule, did you write that you wanted to work for the NY DA's office on the old Jump the Shark site (before the site itself, well, jumped the shark)? I loved reading their L&O thread back in the day and I remember someone writing something similar to what you just said.

Yes. But then I learned I wasn’t smart enough so my career path took a different turn. 

[Prairie Rose]

18 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes. But then I learned I wasn’t smart enough so my career path took a different turn. 

I'm sure you are great in your current career path, but there is nothing wrong with having aspirations to work at the NY DA's office! 😊

[CrystalBlue]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes. But then I learned I wasn’t smart enough so my career path took a different turn. 

Probably your smarts were more well-suited to another career path, in which I hope you've found your happiness.

[AnnieBananie]

23 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

The infamous C-Square song was actually sung in a later episode. At least the first line was. In "Privileged" (S5), the troubled addict/suspect locked up in a holding cell was mumbling and humming to himself. Then he started to sing, "one more time on the kitchen floor" and I cracked up.

I'm so glad someone else noticed this too, Prairie Rose!! I thought it was a neat little Easter Egg and I laugh every time I hear it. 

[Prairie Rose]

3 hours ago, AnnieBananie said:

I'm so glad someone else noticed this too, Prairie Rose!! I thought it was a neat little Easter Egg and I laugh every time I hear it. 

Those episodes had different writers, so I wonder exactly how Mr. C-Square's song made an encore. I'm glad it did!!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Watching “Pride and Joy” now and OMGEEE!!! Tom Everett Scott plays Sean McKinnon’s ((abusive and murdering son) friend who gave him the black eye playing basketball. Tom would return 14 seasons later to play Shalvoy!!!

And watching the scenes where Liz is talking with Sean, I had a 💡 moment! THIS is the episode I conflated with “Forgiveness” when I thought Liz told Ben the defendant was full of rage and I thought the scene was cut. It’s actually this episode.😂😂😂😂😂

And Claire may be smart, but it’s so obvious she is very inexperienced, so that line in season five from Jack how she was “the best” or whatever he said to Claire, just rings hollow.

Oh! Hellllllooooooo Lieutenant Anita Van Buren!!!!!

Edited March 10, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

OOOH, one of my favorites- “Breeder” because of the awesome smack down Ben delivers at the end!

I love how the show demonstrates Mike’s soft spot for children even though he doesn’t have any. And another conversation about his ex who had an abortion. In “Life Choice” Mike told Max about how after an old girlfriend had an abortion, she was now happily married with two children to shut Max up; here we learn he didn’t want the abortion.

Deborah is a real piece of work.

[Columbo]

On 3/3/2022 at 4:25 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Yes she messed up the case by talking to a civil lawyer, then again I’m not sure what I would do in her shoes. Claire definitely should’ve told Stone and Schiff about it, and I got why Stone was upset with her, though I thought he was rather harsh by initially requesting she transfer.

I do wonder if the verdict would’ve been not guilty if C Square hadn’t taken the stand - his smugness did rub the jury the wrong way, but if he hadn’t taken the stand they would’ve only heard the prosecution’s side of the story, so I’m not sure.

I just watched that episode. I think his appearance on the stand plus Stone's closing remarks probably made the jury vote guilty. 

[Prairie Rose]

On 3/7/2022 at 9:01 AM, Columbo said:

I just watched that episode. I think his appearance on the stand plus Stone's closing remarks probably made the jury vote guilty. 

Too bad we couldn't have seen a scene where his lawyer (fruitlessly) tries to talk him out of testifying!! 😂

[Columbo]

I actually think it makes sense that Old Friends was shown after Sanctuary. To me it seemed that Ben's zealously in putting Janney's character in jail to force her to testify wouldn't have happened if the events in Sanctuary hadn't occurred. It was like he was making sure that justice wouldn't escape him again. 

As for Sanctuary, to me it loses its power because the episode went out of its way to show that Mr Berger didn't deserve to go to jail for running over the kid. Which makes the riot and the protest seem not as effective. I wonder if the episode would have been more powerful to me if they had Mr Berger do something criminal like a murder towards someone of the African American community but they couldn't charge him or his case gets declared a mistrial. Something where you could at least understand the riots and the murder.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:31 PM, Prairie Rose said:

I tend to believe she didn't believe her own defense. Ben had a great line about it: "By infantilizing your own people, you are guaranteeing it will happen again."

This seems accurate. After the trial ends, Shambala is putting papers back into her briefcase in preparation to leave, and she pauses for a minute as if she's thinking to herself about the possible future cost of painting Saul Berger as a racist. Because he <i>did</i> hit the kid, but it was an accident, and that he comes to the police station with his lawyer instead of trying to hide what he did mitigates it a small bit.

Whatever happened to Shambala Green, anyway, since we're on the subject of where characters went? Because she sort of faded out after a while, but it's never stated when or how, and she was a pretty important character since she would often deal with Ben and Paul personally.

[Prairie Rose]

12 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Whatever happened to Shambala Green, anyway, since we're on the subject of where characters went? Because she sort of faded out after a while, but it's never stated when or how, and she was a pretty important character since she would often deal with Ben and Paul personally.

Shambala reappeared in the 2003 episode, "Identity" and on Chicago PD in 2017. In the latter, she went up against Peter Stone (Ben's son).

[Xeliou66]

American Dream aired today, this is a great episode, Philip Swann was a great villain, I loved how him and Stone went back and forth, it was funny how Swann kept calling Stone “Ben” and called witnesses by their first name as well, and their exchange in court when Swann asked Stone if he lacked a sense of humor and Stone replied “about murder, sir, I have none” - that was classic Stone. I liked how they were able to circle back and nail Swann for killing the witness at the end, and Stone telling him at the end that Swann never knew him. Kind of a unique episode in that there had already been a trial and conviction over the case and it was more a game of cat and mouse between Stone and Swann, but it worked perfectly. 

[andromeda331]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:34 PM, Xeliou66 said:

American Dream aired today, this is a great episode, Philip Swann was a great villain, I loved how him and Stone went back and forth, it was funny how Swann kept calling Stone “Ben” and called witnesses by their first name as well, and their exchange in court when Swann asked Stone if he lacked a sense of humor and Stone replied “about murder, sir, I have none” - that was classic Stone. I liked how they were able to circle back and nail Swann for killing the witness at the end, and Stone telling him at the end that Swann never knew him. Kind of a unique episode in that there had already been a trial and conviction over the case and it was more a game of cat and mouse between Stone and Swann, but it worked perfectly. 

That was a great episode. He really wanted to be Ben's pal. I love them finally nailing him at the end. 

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That was a great episode. He really wanted to be Ben's pal. I love them finally nailing him at the end. 

I’m not sure if he wanted to be Ben’s pal so much as he was just an arrogant sociopath who got off on taunting his opponents. He was a great villain, and very memorable, the trial scenes were excellent as Swann did a good job of representing himself and it cracked me up how casual he was with the witnesses, calling them by their first names and all, I was surprised the judge didn’t rebuke him. And it was great at the end how Ben told Swann that Swann never knew him at all when he refused to make a deal with him and sent Swann back to jail. Like I say it was an unusual episode in that as soon as the corpse was identified we pretty much knew the perp, but it still worked brilliantly and was a great episode, unlike some of the other times they screwed with the formula.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not sure if he wanted to be Ben’s pal so much as he was just an arrogant sociopath who got off on taunting his opponents. He was a great villain, and very memorable, the trial scenes were excellent as Swann did a good job of representing himself and it cracked me up how casual he was with the witnesses, calling them by their first names and all, I was surprised the judge didn’t rebuke him. And it was great at the end how Ben told Swann that Swann never knew him at all when he refused to make a deal with him and sent Swann back to jail. Like I say it was an unusual episode in that as soon as the corpse was identified we pretty much knew the perp, but it still worked brilliantly and was a great episode, unlike some of the other times they screwed with the formula.

Maybe not friend but he had some weird interest in Ben. I can't decide if he truly saw himself as Ben's equal or he wanted to beat Ben or wanted to impress him.  

[Xeliou66]

Profile was just on - I love this episode, particularly for the testimony of the elderly black man who made the voice ID of the racist serial killer defendant, that was some of the most compelling and powerful testimony in L&O history, Stone even said that the guy could teach about how to testify. I also liked seeing Stone get pissed at the judge for letting Tunney out, that was the closest we ever saw the usually reserved and stoic Stone to getting held in contempt, and he had every right to be pissed. It was somewhat funny having a defense attorney named “McCoy” when Jack McCoy would become the lead prosecutor the next season. Really strong episode, with an intense ending of Tunney getting shot on the street as well.

Black Tie is now on, another strong episode, but a frustrating ending with the rich witch getting away with killing her husband with the help of the always smug Norman Rothenberg. Good plot and good investigation, although Van Buren’s line about Logan being unable to handle that a woman outranked him was very odd.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Profile was just on - I love this episode, particularly for the testimony of the elderly black man who made the voice ID of the racist serial killer defendant, that was some of the most compelling and powerful testimony in L&O history, Stone even said that the guy could teach about how to testify. I also liked seeing Stone get pissed at the judge for letting Tunney out, that was the closest we ever saw the usually reserved and stoic Stone to getting held in contempt, and he had every right to be pissed. It was somewhat funny having a defense attorney named “McCoy” when Jack McCoy would become the lead prosecutor the next season. Really strong episode, with an intense ending of Tunney getting shot on the street as well.

Black Tie is now on, another strong episode, but a frustrating ending with the rich witch getting away with killing her husband with the help of the always smug Norman Rothenberg. Good plot and good investigation, although Van Buren’s line about Logan being unable to handle that a woman outranked him was very odd.

I love he's testimony. Ben's right he could give lessons. I love how he answers the question and the defense attorney's expression. He was expecting to prove the typical he's too old or was too scared to possibilty hear right.  I like Tunney getting shot at the end by his new victim's daughter.  He had it coming. What a piece of trash. I can't believe the judge let him out without alerting the DA's office. Ben's temper in this episode. It was surprising because he's been so good at remaining calm in difficult and infuriating situations. It makes sense here. The stupid judge just let out a man who was going to start shooting people again and they all knew it. I hated Tunney's sister too. Protecting his ass all the way through it despite him already killing two innocent people. They try to say she felt guilty because she wouldn't let her mother come live with her and was murdered. I don't buy. If that was the reason you'd think she'd be quick to turn her brother in because he was murdering innocent people like her mother was.  I love the woman telling Lennie and Logan she called 911 because she knew it was Satan. They disagree because the shoot's a local. Satan's not local. Lennie has a few funny lines. I liked Van Buren's line with the FBI that the shooter could be a white supremacy. Which makes the most sense.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love he's testimony. Ben's right he could give lessons. I love how he answers the question and the defense attorney's expression. He was expecting to prove the typical he's too old or was too scared to possibilty hear right.  I like Tunney getting shot at the end by his new victim's daughter.  He had it coming. What a piece of trash. I can't believe the judge let him out without alerting the DA's office. Ben's temper in this episode. It was surprising because he's been so good at remaining calm in difficult and infuriating situations. It makes sense here. The stupid judge just let out a man who was going to start shooting people again and they all knew it. I hated Tunney's sister too. Protecting his ass all the way through it despite him already killing two innocent people. They try to say she felt guilty because she wouldn't let her mother come live with her and was murdered. I don't buy. If that was the reason you'd think she'd be quick to turn her brother in because he was murdering innocent people like her mother was.  I love the woman telling Lennie and Logan she called 911 because she knew it was Satan. They disagree because the shoot's a local. Satan's not local. Lennie has a few funny lines. I liked Van Buren's line with the FBI that the shooter could be a white supremacy. Which makes the most sense.

Oh yes I hated Tunney’s sister as well, she protected Tunney all the way through despite knowing he was a killer, I wonder if she was a racist as well and that’s why she protected him. Tunney was a piece of shit, a truly evil, despicable villain, and it was karmic justice that he was shot by someone he was about to shoot. It’s a really good episode, and the testimony of the guy who survived the shooting was one of the most memorable in L&O history. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Oh yes I hated Tunney’s sister as well, she protected Tunney all the way through despite knowing he was a killer, I wonder if she was a racist as well and that’s why she protected him. Tunney was a piece of shit, a truly evil, despicable villain, and it was karmic justice that he was shot by someone he was about to shoot. It’s a really good episode, and the testimony of the guy who survived the shooting was one of the most memorable in L&O history. 

 I think she was just as racist. She waited too long to help the police even though he was killing people. She wouldn't have said anything if her husband spoken up. 

[Xeliou66]

I saw Big Bang tonight, and this is a great episode, I love the twists and turns the episode took, with how they pieced together who the killer was and their motive. Good observation by Logan about the spring on the photo that was radioactive and was imprinted onto the photo, and I liked the detective work in identifying Weiss as the perp. I didn’t feel much sympathy for Weiss, yes Manning was a dickhead who stole his work, but Weiss wound up killing an innocent woman by sending a bomb because of it. He deserved the sentence he got. I liked the ending lines between Ben and Adam, when Ben said “he’s not your typical killer” and Adam replies “he is: he killed somebody”, that was vintage Adam.

[andromeda331]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:23 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Big Bang tonight, and this is a great episode, I love the twists and turns the episode took, with how they pieced together who the killer was and their motive. Good observation by Logan about the spring on the photo that was radioactive and was imprinted onto the photo, and I liked the detective work in identifying Weiss as the perp. I didn’t feel much sympathy for Weiss, yes Manning was a dickhead who stole his work, but Weiss wound up killing an innocent woman by sending a bomb because of it. He deserved the sentence he got. I liked the ending lines between Ben and Adam, when Ben said “he’s not your typical killer” and Adam replies “he is: he killed somebody”, that was vintage Adam.

I do love Van Buren remark about people still using mailboxes. In the future they'll get used a lot more often with online shopping. I love the cops having a hard time understanding the work. It felt so much like me with stuff like that. I love Adam. He had great lines also. I loved him pointing out the jury would be asleep. He was a murderer so yeah he was typical.

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I do love Van Buren remark about people still using mailboxes. In the future they'll get used a lot more often with online shopping. I love the cops having a hard time understanding the work. It felt so much like me with stuff like that. I love Adam. He had great lines also. I loved him pointing out the jury would be asleep. He was a murderer so yeah he was typical.

Yeah Adam had some really good lines in Big Bang, his lines were always the best. That episode was interesting in how the detectives and DA’s original theory were certain Manning had hired Weiss to kill his ex and it took more digging to prove that wasn’t the case. Plus Weiss was ready to say that Manning hired him, he loses some sympathy points for that. 

[Spartan Girl]

Count me on for not having any sympathy for Weiss. His wife and children deserve sympathy, his actions ruined their lives just as much as Manning’s ex’s family because of his stupid, reckless act.

It’s just like what I said about another episode: if you bring a weapon to a robbery and someone accidentally gets hurt, it’s still your fault. And if you mail a bomb to someone and it kills a different person, it’s STILL your fault. Manning was a dick and ruined his career, but that doesn’t even remotely justify murder. Adam was right, he was no different than any other perp.

[Xeliou66]

13 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Count me on for not having any sympathy for Weiss. His wife and children deserve sympathy, his actions ruined their lives just as much as Manning’s ex’s family because of his stupid, reckless act.

It’s just like what I said about another episode: if you bring a weapon to a robbery and someone accidentally gets hurt, it’s still your fault. And if you mail a bomb to someone and it kills a different person, it’s STILL your fault. Manning was a dick and ruined his career, but that doesn’t even remotely justify murder. Adam was right, he was no different than any other perp.

Yeah I felt bad for his wife and children, but I didn’t feel sympathy for Weiss, he knew someone could get hurt by a mail bomb, he didn’t care. He deserved the prison sentence he got. 

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Censure, this is a unique episode. Joel Thayer was a total piece of garbage, harassing the family after the wife broke off the affair and threatening their kid, and lying about Kincaid saying she harassed him. I had no idea what Claire ever saw in Thayer, I guess she was enthralled with having a judge interested in her but it didn’t make her look great, and she should’ve immediately told Ben and Adam about the affair when Thayer became the prime suspect. I loved Ben’s line that he had compassion for the criminal justice system, and that it deserves better than Joel Thayer. And then at the end Thayer had to be asked over and over whether he did it or not, what a spineless shitbag. I loved Judge Schreiber shutting him down when Thayer addressed him as “Walter” and told him it was “Judge Schreiber” to him and told him to spill it. A different type of episode but well done.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just watched Censure, this is a unique episode. Joel Thayer was a total piece of garbage, harassing the family after the wife broke off the affair and threatening their kid, and lying about Kincaid saying she harassed him. I had no idea what Claire ever saw in Thayer, I guess she was enthralled with having a judge interested in her but it didn’t make her look great, and she should’ve immediately told Ben and Adam about the affair when Thayer became the prime suspect. I loved Ben’s line that he had compassion for the criminal justice system, and that it deserves better than Joel Thayer. And then at the end Thayer had to be asked over and over whether he did it or not, what a spineless shitbag. I loved Judge Schreiber shutting him down when Thayer addressed him as “Walter” and told him it was “Judge Schreiber” to him and told him to spill it. A different type of episode but well done.

I really don't know what any of the women saw in Thayer. He was an ass from beginning to end. I can't believe how he was crazy enough to make his ex-lover think he went after her kid. That's so messed up. I like the judge at the end refusing to put up with his crap. I really don't like Claire in this episode. She knows as soon as she knows it's Thayer that she should take herself off the case because he'll accuse the DA of going after him because of her. Instead she tells Ben but won't say why. Of course he refuses until he finds out later. When Adam rightly calls her out on it she quits and spends the rest of the episode moping. She does the wrong thing almost gets the case thrown out because of it and takes no responsibility for it. It's a side of her that I don't like. She does the same thing when she messes up with the guy who had mental problems and was a danger to the public.

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really don't know what any of the women saw in Thayer. He was an ass from beginning to end. I can't believe how he was crazy enough to make his ex-lover think he went after her kid. That's so messed up. I like the judge at the end refusing to put up with his crap. I really don't like Claire in this episode. She knows as soon as she knows it's Thayer that she should take herself off the case because he'll accuse the DA of going after him because of her. Instead she tells Ben but won't say why. Of course he refuses until he finds out later. When Adam rightly calls her out on it she quits and spends the rest of the episode moping. She does the wrong thing almost gets the case thrown out because of it and takes no responsibility for it. It's a side of her that I don't like. She does the same thing when she messes up with the guy who had mental problems and was a danger to the public.

I agree, while I like Claire overall, she didn’t look good in this episode, she should’ve immediately come clean about her prior affair with Thayer, she knew it could screw up the case, but she cared more about her privacy than about the case. And yeah I have no idea what women saw in Thayer, he was a control freak and a creep, I guess his power enthralled some people. I love Adam’s reaction when Claire admitted her affair with Thayer. And yeah Judge Schreiber is one of my favorite judges, he was really good.

[andromeda331]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:03 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I agree, while I like Claire overall, she didn’t look good in this episode, she should’ve immediately come clean about her prior affair with Thayer, she knew it could screw up the case, but she cared more about her privacy than about the case. And yeah I have no idea what women saw in Thayer, he was a control freak and a creep, I guess his power enthralled some people. I love Adam’s reaction when Claire admitted her affair with Thayer. And yeah Judge Schreiber is one of my favorite judges, he was really good.

She really should have. I know she likes her privacy but she knew exactly what Thayer was going to do. She owed it to Ben and Adam to give them a heads up. I don't see what Claire or any woman ever saw in Thayer but there's a lot of real life couples and affairs that are like that. The man is really a jerk or something but somehow always ends up with a lot of women. I'm not sure how but they do.

[Xeliou66]

41 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

She really should have. I know she likes her privacy but she knew exactly what Thayer was going to do. She owed it to Ben and Adam to give them a heads up. I don't see what Claire or any woman ever saw in Thayer but there's a lot of real life couples and affairs that are like that. The man is really a jerk or something but somehow always ends up with a lot of women. I'm not sure how but they do.

I think Thayer’s power and prominence had a lot to do with it, I have a feeling Claire was enthralled by having a prominent judge interested in her when she was just out of law school, and that’s why she slept with him. Thayer was a complete creep though. And yeah Claire really screwed up by not telling Ben and Adam about her affair as soon as Thayer became the prime suspect. This wasn’t the only time Claire made an error, Stone was ready to tell her to request a transfer to work with someone else in Discord after she didn’t tell him relevant information before changing his mind. While I like Claire overall, she didn’t always come across great. Censure is an unusual episode. No murder in it and a different type of case but still well done, and I loved Schreiber shutting down Thayer at the end.

[CrystalBlue]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think Thayer’s power and prominence had a lot to do with it, I have a feeling Claire was enthralled by having a prominent judge interested in her when she was just out of law school, and that’s why she slept with him.

This.  "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."

(Google to see who said this.)

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Kids, this is a great episode that left me wondering at the end whether the cop father of the defendant would ever be held accountable for having the witness killed. It would’ve been a great episode to follow up on. The defendant was sympathetic, his actions weren’t justified but I did have some sympathy for him given that he thought he was going to be targeted by the gun dealer because he witnessed the gun dealer shoot someone, and he accidentally killed the other kid because of it. He deserved prison time but he wasn’t evil, and he seemed horrified when Stone informed him at the end that his father had a witness killed. It would’ve been a good episode to follow up on whether the dirty cop dad would ever be held accountable. It was a tragic episode. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just watched Kids, this is a great episode that left me wondering at the end whether the cop father of the defendant would ever be held accountable for having the witness killed. It would’ve been a great episode to follow up on. The defendant was sympathetic, his actions weren’t justified but I did have some sympathy for him given that he thought he was going to be targeted by the gun dealer because he witnessed the gun dealer shoot someone, and he accidentally killed the other kid because of it. He deserved prison time but he wasn’t evil, and he seemed horrified when Stone informed him at the end that his father had a witness killed. It would’ve been a good episode to follow up on whether the dirty cop dad would ever be held accountable. It was a tragic episode. 

Yeah, that would have been a good episode to follow up on. The kid was better then his father despite his crime. I wonder how he turns out. He just got away with murder and his father murdered a witness. Does he shape up? He did seem horrified that his father killed a witness. Or does he end up thinking he can get away with anything because of what his father did? 

One line that horrifyingly is still accurate even if it wasn't meant at the time was "Soon we'll be handing bullet proof vests to kindergarteners." Yeah, sadly that's not a bad idea.

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, that would have been a good episode to follow up on. The kid was better then his father despite his crime. I wonder how he turns out. He just got away with murder and his father murdered a witness. Does he shape up? He did seem horrified that his father killed a witness. Or does he end up thinking he can get away with anything because of what his father did? 

One line that horrifyingly is still accurate even if it wasn't meant at the time was "Soon we'll be handing bullet proof vests to kindergarteners." Yeah, sadly that's not a bad idea.

Yeah they could’ve had a case link back to dirty cops, one of them being the father, and followed up on bringing him to justice. The kid was remorseful and didn’t mean to shoot a bystander and he was understandably scared of the gun dealer, it doesn’t justify what he did but it does make him somewhat sympathetic. The father was just rotten. I wonder how the kid turned out - he seemed to have a conscience and was horrified that his dad got someone killed to protect him, I wonder if he would distance himself from his dad going forward, or if he became worse believing he could get away with anything. It would’ve been a good episode to follow up on.

Also I watched Sanctuary last night and I still vehemently disagree with Adam at the end - I think on a retrial the jury would’ve convicted the defendant because Shambala wouldn’t be allowed to distract them, I think the reason the jury hung was because of Berger, some of the jurors disliked him more than they disliked the defendant and were so angry that Berger got a slap on the wrist for the hit and run, and Berger came off as racist and elitist, so they decided they understood the defendant’s anger. If Berger hadn’t been allowed to testify, the jury would’ve convicted IMO. So I think Adam was dead wrong to decide not to retry the case. It’s a thought provoking episode, as I understood a lot of points of view, I liked how Stone wanted someone to take responsibility for the crime and was upset about it, but I also understood Kincaid saying she didn’t know how she would react due to a history of injustice against blacks. I liked Van Buren standing up for her detectives and telling the reverend that no one got to come into her precinct and accuse her detectives of bias, but I thought Adam was also right when he said there’s a reason for people like Reverend Ott, to remind us we have a long way to go. And I couldn’t help but wonder what the outcome would’ve been if a black driver had killed a Jewish child in a hit and run in a Jewish neighborhood, would the result have been the same? It’s a very interesting and thought provoking episode, but I disagreed with Adam at the end, the case should’ve been retried and I think a jury would’ve convicted if Shambala wasn’t allowed to present that defense and in particular call Berger to the stand.