Season 3: Hello Lennie Briscoe!

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Mary Alice was outstandingly haunting in that episode. RIP.

Yes that’s a good episode and her performance was memorable. Very dark and tragic case and one of the times I did feel sympathy for a perp.

[Xeliou66]

Some really good season 3 episodes on today 

Right to Counsel is an awesome episode, really interesting case with the killer lawyer framing the boyfriend for the woman’s murder. I love Stone tearing the arrogant murderer lawyer to shreds on the stand, what an elitist snob and fraud, so desperate to fit in with the elites that he would kill. I loved how Robinette figured out the guy was being framed and pushed to look deeper.

Night and Fog is a good episode, pretty good plot about the Nazi war criminal killing his wife and staging it as an assisted suicide. It was interesting see Ben contemplate whether to let the feds take the killer, and I liked Adam’s lines about how a woman was killed in their jurisdiction and they were in the crime business, not deciding which crime was more evil - I love Adam, such a wise character. The defense attorney seemed smug and abrasive, maybe I just don’t care for him because I couldn’t stand him as Captain Ross on CI years later, maybe he was such a douche on CI that he seemed douchey here as well.

Promises to Keep is a great episode, although in hindsight Olivet looks like a hypocrite for coming down so hard on the unethical therapist, given that she was sleeping with a patient herself around this time. The circumstances were different and Olivet wasn’t manipulating a patient who was severely psychologically disturbed, but it still makes her look like a hypocrite, it’s why I didn’t care for the season 18 revelation about her sleeping with a detective. I love the investigation in this episode, great detective work from Logan/Briscoe in getting to the bottom of it. It was interesting to see Lennie play the “bad cop” getting the perp worked up and then Mike played the “good cop”, that was a reversal from their actual personalities of Mike being more hot tempered and Lennie being pretty laid back. I love Profaci’s “Donny gets the toaster oven” line. While I have some issues with Judge Quinn in other episodes, I thought he was right to send the boyfriend to prison and I wasn’t sure why Ben wanted to go so soft on him, he was psychologically disturbed but he still strangled his girlfriend because she found out he was sleeping with the shrink, he wasn’t psychotic or insane, he was fortunate he only got 4-12 years for manslaughter due to the mitigating factors, so I thought Quinn was right to overrule the prosecutions recommendation.

[ML89]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Promises to Keep is a great episode, although in hindsight Olivet looks like a hypocrite for coming down so hard on the unethical therapist, given that she was sleeping with a patient herself around this time. The circumstances were different and Olivet wasn’t manipulating a patient who was severely psychologically disturbed, but it still makes her look like a hypocrite, it’s why I didn’t care for the season 18 revelation about her sleeping with a detective. I love the investigation in this episode, great detective work from Logan/Briscoe in getting to the bottom of it. It was interesting to see Lennie play the “bad cop” getting the perp worked up and then Mike played the “good cop”, that was a reversal from their actual personalities of Mike being more hot tempered and Lennie being pretty laid back. I love Profaci’s “Donny gets the toaster oven” line. While I have some issues with Judge Quinn in other episodes, I thought he was right to send the boyfriend to prison and I wasn’t sure why Ben wanted to go so soft on him, he was psychologically disturbed but he still strangled his girlfriend because she found out he was sleeping with the shrink, he wasn’t psychotic or insane, he was fortunate he only got 4-12 years for manslaughter due to the mitigating factors, so I thought Quinn was right to overrule the prosecutions recommendation.

So agree on the Olivet revelation years later!!

Also love the detective work in this one - Mike and Lennie with the patrol guy in the Park was hilarious ("first year guys are like puppies"). Then them hitting the bars in the awful weather.

Night and Fog reminds me of a first season Magnum (the original) that turns in a similar fashion.

Right to Counsel - is that the knockoff Van Bulow or the one where the guy is so much younger? I get that title confused with the one where the guy from The Practice is the developmentally disabled perp who killed nurses but Lennie's old pal set him up (why can't I remember if the set up was him killing the nurses? And Rocket Romano from ER is in it (although at that point, I knew him from the movie Fame)).

 

 

 

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, ML89 said:

So agree on the Olivet revelation years later!!

Also love the detective work in this one - Mike and Lennie with the patrol guy in the Park was hilarious ("first year guys are like puppies"). Then them hitting the bars in the awful weather.

Night and Fog reminds me of a first season Magnum (the original) that turns in a similar fashion.

Right to Counsel - is that the knockoff Van Bulow or the one where the guy is so much younger? I get that title confused with the one where the guy from The Practice is the developmentally disabled perp who killed nurses but Lennie's old pal set him up (why can't I remember if the set up was him killing the nurses? And Rocket Romano from ER is in it (although at that point, I knew him from the movie Fame)).

 

 

 

Right to Counsel is the episode where the wealthy older woman who was the murder victim was dating a much younger boyfriend, the police initially suspect the boyfriend and arrest him and he is willing to plead guilty on the advice of his lawyer, but Robinette notices that he didn’t know a key detail about the murder and is innocent, and it turns out the victim’s personal lawyer killed her for access to her money and framed the boyfriend, and was in cahoots with the boyfriend’s lawyer to try to railroad him. After Stone demolishes him on cross examination, the perp doesn’t show up to court and Briscoe, Logan and Robinette find he’s committed suicide at his house. It’s a really good episode.

L&O did a few episodes about Nazis/the Holocaust, all of them pretty solid, Night and Fog was good, it was an interesting case and I liked how Briscoe/Logan figured it out, the defense attorney got on my nerves though, probably because of what a douche he was on CI as the captain.

Promises to Keep is one of my favorite season 3 episodes, it’s excellent, the detective work is some of the best, but yeah Olivet looks like such a gigantic fraud and hypocrite in hindsight, which is why I didn’t care for that revelation in season 18 about Olivet. Skoda was always my favorite psych expert, but I liked Olivet too. The revival really needs a psych expert, they add a lot to certain episodes. But yeah Promises to Keep is an excellent episode, and like I said at the end I thought Quinn was right to go against the prosecutions recommendation. I didn’t feel any sympathy for the boyfriend, he was obsessed with the shrink and strangled his girlfriend because of it, yeah he was disturbed and the shrink manipulated him but he wasn’t insane and didn’t deserve sympathy. 

[buttersister]

Lennie. Sometimes I'm amazed that Jerry Orbach wasn't cast to begin with.

(Too lazy to see if he was on another series or on Broadway at the time;-)

[Ursula Parrott]

 

[Xeliou66]

One of my all time favorite episodes - Prince of Darkness - was just on - this is an all time classic IMO. Fantastic case with great twists and turns and excitement. The scene where the gun dealer shoots Phil is one of L&O’s most intense. And the ending is the most chilling in franchise history “she doesn’t have an uncle” - the look on Adam’s face said it all. I love the scene where they apprehend the hitman at the hotel - nice seeing Cragen go out in the field as well. Just a fantastic episode.

Point of View, Lennie’s first episode is on now, and while this is a good episode as well, it’s noticeable that Lennie is kind of different in this episode than in all future episodes - Lennie was more abrasive and somewhat surly, and his comment about “micks” killing for money while Italians and Mexicans kill for love was highly OOC - he never said anything like that again. I’m not sure if they just wanted some tension between Lennie and Mike, or if they wanted Lennie to be different from the very laid back Phil, or what it was, but Lennie’s personality was a bit different here. Fortunately he quickly improved and became a great character. Lennie’s observant nature was on display in his first episode as he realized the officer wasn’t telling the truth about not seeing the victim because of the sugar on his uniform. 
I like the scene between Logan and Cragen where Mike asks when Phil is coming back and Cragen points out that Logan doesn’t do great with change and says he would like to know how long his mother in law is going to be staying with him but he’s learning to enjoy her pot roast. It was also nice that Phil got a final scene with Mike, where he informed him that he was transferring to a desk job. Nice to see Phil’s wife Elaine as well. 
The case was good and I liked the twist that it was a mob ordered killing and not about sex. I liked how Lennie and Mike traced down the shooter. Olivet was blinded by her own recent assault in this one and she couldn’t see the truth, Adam was right that Ben couldn’t warn her or go easy on her. 
 

Season 3 will continue to air all day today and season 4 will air tomorrow on Sundance. So many great episodes.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

One of my all time favorite episodes - Prince of Darkness - was just on - this is an all time classic IMO. Fantastic case with great twists and turns and excitement. The scene where the gun dealer shoots Phil is one of L&O’s most intense. And the ending is the most chilling in franchise history “she doesn’t have an uncle” - the look on Adam’s face said it all. I love the scene where they apprehend the hitman at the hotel - nice seeing Cragen go out in the field as well. Just a fantastic episode.

Mine too. It's such a good episode. The ending is so horrifying. They killed everyone including a kid. 

 

Quote

Point of View, Lennie’s first episode is on now, and while this is a good episode as well, it’s noticeable that Lennie is kind of different in this episode than in all future episodes - Lennie was more abrasive and somewhat surly, and his comment about “micks” killing for money while Italians and Mexicans kill for love was highly OOC - he never said anything like that again. I’m not sure if they just wanted some tension between Lennie and Mike, or if they wanted Lennie to be different from the very laid back Phil, or what it was, but Lennie’s personality was a bit different here. Fortunately he quickly improved and became a great character. Lennie’s observant nature was on display in his first episode as he realized the officer wasn’t telling the truth about not seeing the victim because of the sugar on his uniform. 

Yeah, he was different in his first episode I'm not really sure what they where they were going with his character. I'm glad they changed it though. He's my favorite (along with Adam) he's so funny and sarcastic. I do love him telling Logan that being assigned to him made his ex-wives happy. 

Quote

Olivet was blinded by her own recent assault in this one and she couldn’t see the truth, Adam was right that Ben couldn’t warn her or go easy on her. 

Yeah Adam was. Any conversation with Olivet would be seen as trying to tamper with a witness. Warning her could get a mistrial or at very least grounds for an appeal. I do feel bad for Liz at the end when she realized the defendent used her because of her assault. That's really messed up.

Quote

Season 3 will continue to air all day today and season 4 will air tomorrow on Sundance. So many great episodes.

I watched most of them. There's a lot of really great episodes. The Corporate Veil and Wedded Bliss are two of my favorites. The man almost convinced his son to go to jail for him. I like them trying to figure out who was responsible they went from doctors, to sellers to the company. I do always love seeing Harriet Sansom Harris show up I loved her on Frasier and other shows. It's amazing how evil the three were in Wedded Bliss. Even though the one turned on his wife he did nothing about chaining up people even teens for the sweat shop, did nothing anytime they were murdered. That's pretty horrifying. And they almost got away with it. Even with the bodies.

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Mine too. It's such a good episode. The ending is so horrifying. They killed everyone including a kid. 

 

Yeah, he was different in his first episode I'm not really sure what they where they were going with his character. I'm glad they changed it though. He's my favorite (along with Adam) he's so funny and sarcastic. I do love him telling Logan that being assigned to him made his ex-wives happy. 

Yeah Adam was. Any conversation with Olivet would be seen as trying to tamper with a witness. Warning her could get a mistrial or at very least grounds for an appeal. I do feel bad for Liz at the end when she realized the defendent used her because of her assault. That's really messed up.

I watched most of them. There's a lot of really great episodes. The Corporate Veil and Wedded Bliss are two of my favorites. The man almost convinced his son to go to jail for him. I like them trying to figure out who was responsible they went from doctors, to sellers to the company. I do always love seeing Harriet Sansom Harris show up I loved her on Frasier and other shows. It's amazing how evil the three were in Wedded Bliss. Even though the one turned on his wife he did nothing about chaining up people even teens for the sweat shop, did nothing anytime they were murdered. That's pretty horrifying. And they almost got away with it. Even with the bodies.

Prince of Darkness is one of L&O’s very best - very intense and filled with good twists from start to finish. That ending is L&O’s most horrifying IMO.

I’m not sure why Lennie was kind of different in his first episode, my best guess is they wanted some tension between him and Logan, but he was a lot surlier than usual. Fortunately that was only for one episode, and Lennie quickly became a great character. I liked that Phil and Mike had a goodbye scene and it was nice to see Phil’s wife onscreen. And like I said earlier I loved the scene between Logan and Cragen.

Season 3 has many great episodes. Wedded Bliss is a great episode, one of my favorites, another disturbing one with the sweatshops and the evil people running them, and it was a great twist that the wife was sleeping with the younger guy Rudy who carried out the murders. Great investigative work in figuring out who did it despite not having much evidence. Logan lost his cool a couple of times in the episode, which Cerreta warned him about.

Speaking of Olivet, one episode that I caught last night was Promises to Keep, and while this is a great episode, the revelation years later that Olivet was sleeping with a patient around this time makes her look like a gigantic hypocrite, given how strongly she was condemning sex between patient/therapist and pushing the DA’s office to prosecute Diane. It’s the main reason I dislike that reveal about Olivet, she looks like nothing but a giant fraud here in hindsight. It is a great episode though, and I love Lennie and Mike’s investigation - they immediately knew it wasn’t a mugging gone wrong and zeroed in on the boyfriend but it was a nice job of them sorting through what happened to get to the truth, and I like how in the interrogation room Mike played the calm nice cop, while Lennie played the aggressive “bad cop” - their act was a total reversal of their actual personalities which was interesting. It’s a great episode but Olivet looks so hypocritical in hindsight. 

[ML89]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not sure why Lennie was kind of different in his first episode, my best guess is they wanted some tension between him and Logan, but he was a lot surlier than usual. Fortunately that was only for one episode, and Lennie quickly became a great character.

I would bet that early on they had Orbach lean into the style of his Prince of the City character. He did something very similar to the table kick and he was much rougher. 
 

I’m watching Wedded Bliss right now and Mike and Phil go see a cop at another precinct - the 2-7!

[Xeliou66]

48 minutes ago, ML89 said:

I would bet that early on they had Orbach lean into the style of his Prince of the City character. He did something very similar to the table kick and he was much rougher. 
 

I’m watching Wedded Bliss right now and Mike and Phil go see a cop at another precinct - the 2-7!

The table kick in Promises to Keep was just for show, Lennie wasn’t actually losing his temper with the killer, he was just rattling him so Logan could come and play the “good cop” - it was all an act. Like I say, I liked that scene because it was funny to me how opposite it was from their actual personalities - Lennie was always laid back and rarely got pissed while Mike was the more hot headed one. Promises to Keep has some of my favorite detective work, it’s a great episode.
 

The only episode where Lennie was somewhat OOC was his first one, Point of View, I think they just wanted some tension between him and Logan with Logan believing at the start Briscoe would only be his temporary partner, but Lennie was more abrasive and the racial comment was highly OOC. 

[Xeliou66]

Conduct Unbecoming was just on - this is such a great episode - Captain Bunker was such an arrogant misogynistic piece of shit murderer, it was very satisfying to see him get nailed. Ben was awesome here - I love his line to Bunker “I’m not judging you, sir. That right belongs to your conscience and twelve taxpayers. And I assure you the latter will not be as tolerant as the former”. That was classic Ben - very formal and stoic but forceful. And his cross of Bunker was great, as was his closing. Ben was a great prosecutor. I also love the detective work with Lennie realizing that the victim was attacked a while before she died. Also interesting seeing Cragen go to Adam’s office and deal with Adam, Ben and Paul. And Adam’s last line was classic and spot on - when they were discussing whether Bunker ever read the constitution, Adam said “I doubt he ever got past the Declaration of Independence - all men are created equal”. 

[andromeda331]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:01 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Conduct Unbecoming was just on - this is such a great episode - Captain Bunker was such an arrogant misogynistic piece of shit murderer, it was very satisfying to see him get nailed. Ben was awesome here - I love his line to Bunker “I’m not judging you, sir. That right belongs to your conscience and twelve taxpayers. And I assure you the latter will not be as tolerant as the former”. That was classic Ben - very formal and stoic but forceful. And his cross of Bunker was great, as was his closing. Ben was a great prosecutor. I also love the detective work with Lennie realizing that the victim was attacked a while before she died. Also interesting seeing Cragen go to Adam’s office and deal with Adam, Ben and Paul. And Adam’s last line was classic and spot on - when they were discussing whether Bunker ever read the constitution, Adam said “I doubt he ever got past the Declaration of Independence - all men are created equal”. 

Yeah I loved watching Stone take him down. He was such an asshole. Trying to convince the jury he was totally okay where he ended up in his career. I love Stone asking Which bitch? Adam's line was perfect and accurate. I liked seeing Cragen go to Adam's office. That was really great to see.

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah I loved watching Stone take him down. He was such an asshole. Trying to convince the jury he was totally okay where he ended up in his career. I love Stone asking Which bitch? Adam's line was perfect and accurate. I liked seeing Cragen go to Adam's office. That was really great to see.

It’s one of my favorite season 3 episodes - Ben in particular was awesome in it, his closing was spot on and his cross of asswipe Bunker was great. I also loved the investigation by Lennie and Mike and how Lennie realized the fatal blow was delivered a bit before the victim died and how they zeroed in on Bunker. Cragen got a larger role than normal which was nice to see as well, and it’s always nice to see the police and DA’s interact.

Season 3 has a lot of great episodes. 

[Xeliou66]

I love the episode Promises to Keep, which is on right now. Really compelling plot about the guy obsessed with his shrink and killing his girlfriend. I love the detective work in this episode, with Lennie and Mike realizing the killer wanted something from the victim’s home (which turned out to be the diary detailing his affair with the shrink) and zeroing in on realizing the shrink was manipulating them, and then canvassing the bars in the nasty weather and realizing the doctor knew the details of the murder, it’s one of my favorite investigations. It’s funny when Lennie played the aggressive “bad cop” in the interrogation room while Mike played the nice guy “good cop” which was an opposite of their actual personalities, with Mike being the actual more hot headed one while Lennie was laid back. Profaci’s “Donny gets the toaster oven” line was great as well.

I felt that Judge Quinn made the right decision in sending the killer to prison instead of a mental hospital - I thought Ben was going a bit easy on him, he was disturbed and had been manipulated but he wasn’t insane IMO, he was just obsessed with and in love with the shrink, that’s not insanity, that’s killing for love. I didn’t feel one iota of sympathy for him, he strangled his girlfriend when she threatened to break things off and expose the affair, he seemed just in love, not insane.

I have to say though Olivet looks like a huge hypocrite in hindsight here, given that she testified that sex between a patient and therapist was “abuse and exploitation” here when she slept with a patient (probably Logan) at around the same time. It’s why I strongly disliked the reveal about Olivet sleeping with a patient, because it basically destroys her credibility, especially from this episode. But it’s a fantastic episode overall with one of my favorite investigations.

[ML89]

23 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I love the episode Promises to Keep, which is on right now. Really compelling plot about the guy obsessed with his shrink and killing his girlfriend. I love the detective work in this episode, with Lennie and Mike realizing the killer wanted something from the victim’s home (which turned out to be the diary detailing his affair with the shrink) and zeroing in on realizing the shrink was manipulating them, and then canvassing the bars in the nasty weather and realizing the doctor knew the details of the murder, it’s one of my favorite investigations. It’s funny when Lennie played the aggressive “bad cop” in the interrogation room while Mike played the nice guy “good cop” which was an opposite of their actual personalities, with Mike being the actual more hot headed one while Lennie was laid back. Profaci’s “Donny gets the toaster oven” line was great as well.

I felt that Judge Quinn made the right decision in sending the killer to prison instead of a mental hospital - I thought Ben was going a bit easy on him, he was disturbed and had been manipulated but he wasn’t insane IMO, he was just obsessed with and in love with the shrink, that’s not insanity, that’s killing for love. I didn’t feel one iota of sympathy for him, he strangled his girlfriend when she threatened to break things off and expose the affair, he seemed just in love, not insane.

I have to say though Olivet looks like a huge hypocrite in hindsight here, given that she testified that sex between a patient and therapist was “abuse and exploitation” here when she slept with a patient (probably Logan) at around the same time. It’s why I strongly disliked the reveal about Olivet sleeping with a patient, because it basically destroys her credibility, especially from this episode. But it’s a fantastic episode overall with one of my favorite investigations.

YES to the Olivet reveal because the second they brought it up, I thought of this ep. UGH that was awful. (Related - I began souring on House when they had Wilson be the same kind of hypocrite).

I love that investigation, too. "First year guys are like puppies" ,"Oh Detectives Einstein and Galileo", "I missed your act at the improv" and yes, "Donny gets the toaster oven"! Plus Lennie channelling his character in Prince of the City while Logan is good cop.

 

 

[Xeliou66]

9 minutes ago, ML89 said:

YES to the Olivet reveal because the second they brought it up, I thought of this ep. UGH that was awful. (Related - I began souring on House when they had Wilson be the same kind of hypocrite).

I love that investigation, too. "First year guys are like puppies" ,"Oh Detectives Einstein and Galileo", "I missed your act at the improv" and yes, "Donny gets the toaster oven"! Plus Lennie channelling his character in Prince of the City while Logan is good cop.

 

 

Yeah that investigation was great - I loved how Lennie and Mike got to the bottom of it all and realized the boyfriend did it and the shrink was manipulating them, and the bar canvas in the nasty weather was great. The interrogation scene is amusing just because the roles they were playing were the exact opposite of what they were actually like, Lennie was the laid back cop who didn’t get wound up easily while Mike was fiery and more hot tempered, but they did just the opposite in that scene trying to rattle the suspect.

I always liked Skoda more than Olivet, but I liked Olivet also, but they pretty much trashed Olivet’s character with that stupid reveal, it ruined her credibility and made her look like a huge hypocrite - not only in the season 18 episode where it was revealed but also this episode. Olivet honestly looks like the biggest hypocrite imaginable in this episode knowing what we now know, it’s why I really disliked that revelation. 

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I always liked Skoda more than Olivet, but I liked Olivet also, but they pretty much trashed Olivet’s character with that stupid reveal, it ruined her credibility and made her look like a huge hypocrite - not only in the season 18 episode where it was revealed but also this episode. Olivet honestly looks like the biggest hypocrite imaginable in this episode knowing what we now know, it’s why I really disliked that revelation. 

I hate that they did that to Olivet. She would never ever do that. They completely trashed her character for no reason. I like Skoda better too but I like the couple times that he was completely fooled by a client like Jackie in Bitch and Olivet is sitting there rolling her eyes. I also felt bad for her when a murderer uses her being a rape victim to get off for her crime. That was horrible.

[Xeliou66]

On 4/6/2024 at 3:39 AM, andromeda331 said:

I hate that they did that to Olivet. She would never ever do that. They completely trashed her character for no reason. I like Skoda better too but I like the couple times that he was completely fooled by a client like Jackie in Bitch and Olivet is sitting there rolling her eyes. I also felt bad for her when a murderer uses her being a rape victim to get off for her crime. That was horrible.

Yeah I really disliked the reveal about Olivet, it was one of the times L&O trashed a good character just for drama. I never took Olivet for a hypocrite but that’s what the reveal of her sleeping with a patient made her out to be, a gigantic hypocrite especially given this season 3 episode. I hate when L&O has trashed good characters.

[andromeda331]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:35 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I really disliked the reveal about Olivet, it was one of the times L&O trashed a good character just for drama. I never took Olivet for a hypocrite but that’s what the reveal of her sleeping with a patient made her out to be, a gigantic hypocrite especially given this season 3 episode. I hate when L&O has trashed good characters.

I never did either. I hate when shows trash good characters. There's no reason for it.

Edited April 14 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

Forgiveness is a strong episode - I really like the investigation and how Phil and Mike got to the bottom of it and realized the boyfriend did it, and Ben was good as usual. I didn’t buy Tommy’s insanity defense, and it was absurd how the defense thought Tommy could get off with a minimal sentence so Tommy could join the church, Tommy bashed his girlfriend’s head in because she dumped him, he didn’t deserve sympathy just because he came from a poor background. Ben’s closing was good in reminding the jury that the deceased was the victim, and not the defendant. The victim’s father didn’t help them though, Ben probably shouldn’t have put him on the stand, he was a nasty elitist bigot, but I was glad the jury didn’t take their disgust with him out on his daughter. It’s a really good episode. 

[Palimelon]

Ah, Lennie...with regards to the senior detective role/actor, third time really was the charm.

[Xeliou66]

58 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Ah, Lennie...with regards to the senior detective role/actor, third time really was the charm.

Yeah Lennie is the best, he’ll always be my favorite L&O detective, he was just terrific.
I liked Phil Cerreta, he gets kind of forgotten about but he was good and I liked his partnership with Logan. Didn’t care for Max Greevey in season 1. But Lennie is definitely the best L&O detective and always will be.

[buttersister]

I liked grumpy Max. You could feel the tired in his bones. And Phil was good, too—they were both good balances for Mike.

But Lennie. The best. Jerry Orbach created many great characters, but Lenny was front and center TV, not Broadway, so for most of us, his legacy role. Nobody did it better, before or since.

[andromeda331]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Forgiveness is a strong episode - I really like the investigation and how Phil and Mike got to the bottom of it and realized the boyfriend did it, and Ben was good as usual. I didn’t buy Tommy’s insanity defense, and it was absurd how the defense thought Tommy could get off with a minimal sentence so Tommy could join the church, Tommy bashed his girlfriend’s head in because she dumped him, he didn’t deserve sympathy just because he came from a poor background. Ben’s closing was good in reminding the jury that the deceased was the victim, and not the defendant. The victim’s father didn’t help them though, Ben probably shouldn’t have put him on the stand, he was a nasty elitist bigot, but I was glad the jury didn’t take their disgust with him out on his daughter. It’s a really good episode. 

I don't either. Tommy was full of crap. He didn't care about his girlfriend. She was a means to end to get the lifestyle he wanted. Tough luck. You want it then work to get it. His poor background was no excuse for what he did. 

[Spartan Girl]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The victim’s father didn’t help them though, Ben probably shouldn’t have put him on the stand, he was a nasty elitist bigot, but I was glad the jury didn’t take their disgust with him out on his daughter. It’s a really good episode. 

Her dad might have been a bigot, but a broken clock is right twice a day. He could see the red flags about Tommy: that he was too clingy and using her. Tommy had all the trademarks of an abuser and like all abusers, he tried to make himself look like the victim. 

The sad thing is, from the way the show is currently going, if they did an episode like this today they would have had the jury deadlock/find him not guilty and Maroun would have bent over backwards to defend him.

Edited August 16 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't either. Tommy was full of crap. He didn't care about his girlfriend. She was a means to end to get the lifestyle he wanted. Tough luck. You want it then work to get it. His poor background was no excuse for what he did. 

 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Her dad might have been a bigot, but a broken clock is right twice a day. He could see the red flags about Tommy: that he was too clingy and using her. Tommy had all the trademarks of an abuser and like all abusers, he tried to make himself look like the victim. 

The sad thing is, from the way the show is currently going, if they did an episode like this today they would have had the jury deadlock/find him not guilty and Marion would have bent over backwards to defend him.

Yeah Tommy didn’t care about his girlfriend and I don’t think he even felt remorse about what he did, he was just sorry he got caught. His lawyer did a pretty good job but I was glad the jury saw through Tommy and I liked how Ben reminded them that Beth was the real victim and that Tommy coming from poverty didn’t justify him bashing Beth’s skull in because she dumped him. It’s a really strong episode from start to finish.

You are probably right that Maroun would feel sorry for him if the episode was a current one. 

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

Yeah Tommy didn’t care about his girlfriend and I don’t think he even felt remorse about what he did, he was just sorry he got caught. His lawyer did a pretty good job but I was glad the jury saw through Tommy and I liked how Ben reminded them that Beth was the real victim and that Tommy coming from poverty didn’t justify him bashing Beth’s skull in because she dumped him. It’s a really strong episode from start to finish.

You are probably right that Maroun would feel sorry for him if the episode was a current one. 

Oh, he wasn't. Not once after he killed Beth did he say anything about her. Only him. He had a bad childhood, he wanted to live that life, her father hated him. Him, him and him.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Oh, he wasn't. Not once after he killed Beth did he say anything about her. Only him. He had a bad childhood, he wanted to live that life, her father hated him. Him, him and him.

Yep, Tommy was just self absorbed, and he acted like his background justified him bashing Beth’s skull in because she broke things off with him. I think he only came to the station and confessed because he knew he was about to be arrested. It’s a strong episode all around.