Waco - General Discussion

[Netfoot]

29 minutes ago, peach said:

My guess is that the reason they're portraying him this positively is to show how he did charm them into following him.  It's a representation of how they saw him and themselves.

I must assume that he was a very charismatic, persuasive and believable character.  Otherwise he wouldn't have found it so easy to collect adherents.  

(Hi, Peach!)

[peach]

20 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I must assume that he was a very charismatic, persuasive and believable character.  Otherwise he wouldn't have found it so easy to collect adherents.  

(Hi, Peach!)

Hi!

I think they're doing a really good job showing how he love bombs lonely people, and how he intuitively knows how to get inside a person's head.  How he played Thibodeaux, being friendly and understanding.   Immediately identify with the other person's situation, "I get it."   But notice how he always is like, oh, well, I'll leave you alone...so the OTHER person is going, no, wait.  Very subtle manipulation tactics.

[IntrovertRed]

I can't ever see myself being so manipulated that I would willingly allow my children to be molested and/or abused.  The taking the wives I guess I can understand, but children?  You'd think that would make them all stop and think a little bit more about this.  But from what I read, it was a slow process that Koresh instituted that so chances are by that time, they were full in and it was too late to back out.  Crazy.

Edited February 28, 2018 by KLJ

[Unclejosh]

Yeah the mother who allowed her 10 year old to be raped by Koresh in a motel room after grooming her for 3 years is reprehensible to me.  Maybe more so than Koresh himself.  Koresh was an evil sick man, but at the end of the day, it was not his child that he was supposed to protect above all else.   But I have personal experience with this so I am biased against parents who allow their children to be used and abused or commit the abuse themselves.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Unclejosh

[meatball77]

Yeah, the only person I think is coming out as not horrible is the FBI negotiator.

[Peppermint Patty]

I was 11 in 1993, and I just happened to be home from school on April 19th. I watched the fire live on TV, and I remember feeling absolutely horrified. I remember waiting to see if anyone would come out, and that horrible moment when everyone realized that only a handful survived. This episode captured the horror perfectly. I want to say more, but I’m honestly speechless.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Peppermint Patty

[peach]

The song was a surreal moment.  I knew it sounded familiar, but I'm ashamed that I could not place it.  Lost some"80's cred right there.  (They could have thrown "People Are Strange" in this series somewhere, for sure.)  So...I guess that really happened?  I loved the look on Steve's face when he walked in on that.

 

9 hours ago, meatball77 said:

Yeah, the only person I think is coming out as not horrible is the FBI negotiator.

I guess it helps to write your own book about yourself.

[Kalamityjayne]

1 hour ago, Peppermint Patty said:

I was 11 in 1993, and I just happened to be home from school on April 19th. I watched the fire live on TV, and I remember feeling absolutely horrified. I remember waiting to see if anyone would come out, and that horrible moment when everyone realized that only a handful survived. This episode captured the horror perfectly. I want to say more, but I’m honestly speechless.

Same age and also watched. This episode was difficult to watch as an adult now with small children. I cannot even imagine. Actually I can in a small way because they showcased that entrapment of the women and children so well that I felt the panic and suffocation. This was so horrific. 

 

The radio guy at the end detailing all those standoffs that resulted the same way was poignant. 

[peach]

I was in my 20's.  It was truly shocking at the time, and now as a middle aged person, I think it seems even worse, having raised a family. 

The acting was really good in this.  By episode 5, I forgot I was watching Taylor Kitsch.  His manic behavior after he agreed to surrender....but, wait...in a week.   It was breathtaking.  I felt like I was looking right down the barrel of his narcissism.  There was that part that wanted to walk out safely with everyone, but when it came down to it, he was never going to leave.  He wouldn't give up being king of his kingdom.  His "message" was just an excuse, even to himself, I think.  That's my interpretation, anyway.

I thought Steve was an intriguing character (also great acting). If only he'd listened to his gut.  Every time he was on the brink of coming back to reality, he'd think about how David "prophesied" these events (even though they were rather predictable) so he must be right.  Like comments from episode 1 said, to admit you were wrong about David was to admit you really screwed up your whole life and your family.  It just makes what the govt did extra stupid, to play into his doomsday complex like they did.

I have to call BS on Tibs running around a burning building like that.  Only Hollywood fire burns nice and clean like that, with no melting heat or smoke.

[Cara]

Michael Shannon’s character left Waco on day 25. So they crammed the last 26 days of the stand off into the last 15 or so minutes of the series. BTW, he was the only character based on a real FBI agent. The others were composites.

There is footage available on the internet where it is obvious that the Davidians started the fire.

Has anyone read either of the books this was based on? 

[Winston Wolfe]

On 2/23/2018 at 3:09 PM, Netfoot said:

I'm not sure about that.  Koresh deserved weighty punishment indeed.  But the remainder of the group?  Perhaps not.  Certainly not to the extent that they were shot, shelled, gassed and burnt alive -- man, woman and child.

It's a slippery slope.  Bad judgement in all parts of life tends to cost us, to one degree or another.  Those adults chose to follow David Koresh.  Think about the conversation between Steve and Gary during the "kids-for-milk" exchange.  If David was truly the horrible, garbage human being Steve described, then why follow him?  I'm not saying the Branch Davidians deserved to die, but most major decisions have consequences.  The ATF and FBI cannot be absolved for their poor decisions either, IMO.

[Netfoot]

6 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Bad judgement in all parts of life tends to cost us, to one degree or another.  Those adults chose to follow David Koresh.

I agree, but it seems Koresh had an almost hypnotic effect on his followers.  I don't believe they should be absolved of all sin, but I think the fault was more his than theirs.  And what ever their sins, I think the punishment meted out by the Alphabet Soup brigade was completely unjustified.  And in the case of the children themselves, despite whatever brainwashed attitudes they may have had, I believe them essentially innocent of wrong-doing.

Evil as they may have been, the Branch Davidians didn't deserve the treatment they received, at the hands of officially sanctioned thugs with military weapons, including tanks.  Thugs who I believe, were subsequently rewarded with promotions and increased budget appropriations.

[peach]

20 minutes ago, Cara said:

Michael Shannon’s character left Waco on day 25. So they crammed the last 26 days of the stand off into the last 15 or so minutes of the series.

So what was the deal with the "give me a week to write my message" part?  Because I wasn't paying that close of attention to which "day" they were on in the series.  Because they made it look like that was very near the end, and Gary went home, and then they moved on the compound within a day or two, not three weeks later.  Which is a much different scenario.  I do know that Gary wasn't physically at Ruby Ridge, either, but did consult on it.

I haven't read the books, but I was planning to catch up on the documentary pieces they have on their network.  Mostly because there's really no explanation here of what the Davidians were actually doing before this.  Were they running guns, or just stockpiling them or what?  That scene in the first episode where they were going off to a gun show or something I thought was supposed to imply they were just making a living that way.  Which seems dubious, at the very least.  Really, even with all the documentaries and books and movies...it seems like  something has always been missing about this story.

[Cara]

53 minutes ago, peach said:

So what was the deal with the "give me a week to write my message" part?  Because I wasn't paying that close of attention to which "day" they were on in the series.  Because they made it look like that was very near the end, and Gary went home, and then they moved on the compound within a day or two, not three weeks later.  Which is a much different scenario.  

Yes, it did make it seem like it was the next day. And that scene of him walking in the door with his wife watching TV was made to appear that he was just returning home from Texas. I realized that he left half way in from reading a article.

http://www.smithmountainlake.com/community/lakers-get-sneak-preview-of-waco-tv-series/article_9484f244-321b-519c-9f3c-639f17c6178e.html

The documentary Truth and Lies: Waco is available on Hulu and  is pretty good. They interview several former Branch Davidians and FBI agents.

[TattleTeeny]

Does anyone know what is the least possibly biased account of this story? I am bored at work and want to read something.

[birdroad]

On 2/9/2018 at 7:45 PM, Jazzhands said:

Is anybody else watching this show?  I’m feeling about it much like I’m feeling about American Crime Story this season.  I’ll be watching it and think it’s very well done overall, and I’m interested in the narrative storytelling and acting choices, but the entire time there’s a part of my brain asking whether it’s accurately representing what happened, and then an even bigger part that’s just disgusted with myself for watching an entertainment piece about the horrible and grisly deaths of actual people.  I’m really torn with both of these shows. 

I'm just now catching up on DVR and having the same reaction. But here's how I look at it... this show is encouraging me to really educate myself on what happened. I was a young adult, in my last semester of college and planning a wedding when this happened and so I only sort of paid attention to the nightly news and I completely bought into the narrative the government was selling. Three episodes in and I've been inspired to start listening to the audiobook version of David Thibodeau's book the miniseries is partially based on.  It is truly eye-opening and even though I'm only a short way through it, I'm already seeing this tragedy in a whole new light.

So, it might be entertainment, but I think it's a good thing if it inspires people to take another look at what really happened and not just rely on what they've always thought, if that makes sense. 

[roughing it]

what a clusterfuck

[Peppermint Patty]

1 hour ago, birdroad said:

I'm just now catching up on DVR and having the same reaction. But here's how I look at it... this show is encouraging me to really educate myself on what happened. I was a young adult, in my last semester of college and planning a wedding when this happened and so I only sort of paid attention to the nightly news and I completely bought into the narrative the government was selling. Three episodes in and I've been inspired to start listening to the audiobook version of David Thibodeau's book the miniseries is partially based on.  It is truly eye-opening and even though I'm only a short way through it, I'm already seeing this tragedy in a whole new light.

So, it might be entertainment, but I think it's a good thing if it inspires people to take another look at what really happened and not just rely on what they've always thought, if that makes sense. 

It definitely has inspired me to do more research on the events. I started watching the "Inside Mt. Carmel" home movies on YouTube last night. They're really eye-opening. In every single one, the real Branch Davidians have that same look in their eyes and that same way of speaking (same phrases, same cadence.) It's eerie. 

[Peppermint Patty]

3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

I agree, but it seems Koresh had an almost hypnotic effect on his followers.  I don't believe they should be absolved of all sin, but I think the fault was more his than theirs.  And what ever their sins, I think the punishment meted out by the Alphabet Soup brigade was completely unjustified.  And in the case of the children themselves, despite whatever brainwashed attitudes they may have had, I believe them essentially innocent of wrong-doing.

Evil as they may have been, the Branch Davidians didn't deserve the treatment they received, at the hands of officially sanctioned thugs with military weapons, including tanks.  Thugs who I believe, were subsequently rewarded with promotions and increased budget appropriations.

I agree that he had a hypnotic effect on them. I've been watching the Inside Mt. Carmel videos on YouTube since last night. It's eerie. They were probably brainwashed and definitely misguided. I tend to think of them more in terms of the frog in the boiling pot of water. Koresh turned up the heat slowly, over the course of years. Plus, from reading David Thibodeau's book (and others on the subject) not everyone knew everything that was going on. For a long time, Thibodeau didn't even know Koresh had multiple wives and many kids. He thought they were Koresh's ex-girlfriends or single mothers. In this group, it seems like people were given information on a need-to-know basis, and not everyone had the whole picture except maybe an inner circle.

[Peppermint Patty]

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Does anyone know what is the least possibly biased account of this story? I am bored at work and want to read something.

Hmmm...good question. Probably James Tabor's Why Waco. Kenneth Newport's The Branch Davidians of Waco is also pretty good, but it's a giant book. Tabor is the religious scholar who spoke with Koresh during the siege and really tried to understand their worldview.

Clive Doyle, Bonnie Haldeman, and Sheila Martin's books give a good insight into what life was like inside the group, but it's definitely slanted in favor of Koresh. It's a good look into the older history of the group in the pre-Koresh years. David Thibodeau is a little more critical of David in his book, but I definitely wouldn't call it unbiased. Thibodeau was there for a shorter time than many other survivors and wasn't in the inner circle as much as the miniseries made it seem. I haven't read Gary Noesner's book, but I imagine it's pretty biased towards law enforcement. 

There are also a bunch of sensationalized books from 1993. See No Evil and Blind Faith are pretty terrible. Marc Breault's book Inside the Cult is very, very biased (and pro-Marc Breault, who at one point claimed to be a rival prophet.) I still think Breault's book is worth reading because he recruited Steve and Judy Schneider, and he was Koresh's right-hand man before Steve. There are some other self-published, very sketchy things out there. 

Edited because I thought of another one: Dick Reavis's The Ashes of Waco (I think that's the title) is pro-Davidian.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Peppermint Patty

[TattleTeeny]

Thanks. My original plan was for Noesner's but it's about more than just Waco, so I'll get to that another time. I'm going with Thibodeau's, I think. 

[BonnieD]

So the woman with the shot fingers is the ONLY ONE who knows how to type?

[Cara]

1 hour ago, TattleTeeny said:

Thanks. My original plan was for Noesner's but it's about more than just Waco, so I'll get to that another time. I'm going with Thibodeau's, I think. 

Yeah, I think it’s only a chapter. He was in the FBI for a long time and involved in a lot of cases. Here’s a link to a podcast with him talking about Waco, if anyone is interested in that.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/fbi-retired-case-file-review/id1082012464?mt=2&i=1000401194553

[TattleTeeny]

Whooo-hoo, something to listen to on my awful drive home tonight!

[peach]

1 hour ago, BonnieD said:

So the woman with the shot fingers is the ONLY ONE who knows how to type?

Maybe he picked her because it would hurt.  More dominance.  But also probably made up, because they're both dead and nobody saw that.

[peach]

3 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

It definitely has inspired me to do more research on the events. I started watching the "Inside Mt. Carmel" home movies on YouTube last night. They're really eye-opening. In every single one, the real Branch Davidians have that same look in their eyes and that same way of speaking (same phrases, same cadence.) It's eerie. 

I tried watching one, part 2 with Judy Schneider, and halfway through my computer froze up and started buzzing really loudly.  Weird.  Anyway, she seemed like she was lying. 

[peach]

3 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Plus, from reading David Thibodeau's book (and others on the subject) not everyone knew everything that was going on. For a long time, Thibodeau didn't even know Koresh had multiple wives and many kids. He thought they were Koresh's ex-girlfriends or single mothers. In this group, it seems like people were given information on a need-to-know basis, and not everyone had the whole picture except maybe an inner circle.

And there was probably a lot more he didn't know, and we'll never know.  There were certain agency connections with Jim Jones, and the Moonies.   I mean, who knows what David was really up to that his followers didn't know about, especially involving the guns.  And mind control.  Everything burned, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[roughing it]

58 minutes ago, peach said:

But also probably made up, because they're both dead and nobody saw that.

Another thing that could not be verified:  Steve pulling the trigger on David, then turning the gun back on himself.

[peach]

4 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

In every single one, the real Branch Davidians have that same look in their eyes and that same way of speaking (same phrases, same cadence.) It's eerie. 

Wow. You aren't kidding about the eyes.  Really disturbing.

[Peppermint Patty]

1 hour ago, peach said:

Wow. You aren't kidding about the eyes.  Really disturbing.

Part of me wants to believe that it's just bad 1990s camcorders, but their whole way of speaking is the same. There's one with four preteen girls where it's also really obvious. One of them starts talking about the Bible, and it's very strange. It's unlike any preteen girl I've known.

[Peppermint Patty]

3 hours ago, peach said:

Maybe he picked her because it would hurt.  More dominance.  But also probably made up, because they're both dead and nobody saw that.

I looked it up. It wasn't Judy who typed the manuscript. It was Ruth Riddle, who jumped out of a window with the manuscript during the fire. 

[whinewithwine]

12 hours ago, Cara said:

There is footage available on the internet where it is obvious that the Davidians started the fire.

I don't know of any such footage.  The cameras were several hundred yards away during the attack.  There seems to be one "explosion" that the feds blamed on a stockpile of ammo, but it could have been a propane tank.  With over 400 canisters of CS gas being thrown into the compound with kerosene lanterns in use, it's much more likely the ATF started the fires.  

By the way, Janet Reno testified that she was unaware of the international ban on CS gas when she approved it's use in Waco.  Federal agencies deliberately withheld information.

Autopsies also found that many of those who died were crushed by falling debris, not fire.  

9 hours ago, roughing it said:

what a clusterfuck

That sums it up, and the government NEVER admitted it.

[IntrovertRed]

Just finished watching.  Damn.  

I don't think Koresh had any intention of coming out, but still.  And all that tear gas?   If the government knew it could start fires, why weren't they prepared for it?  

Did anyone see David Thibodeau sitting next to Rory Culkin when Gary was going to testify?  And then the real Gary coming to get Gary/Michael Shannon. 

Were all the women and children really trapped and unable to get out? I was reading that some of the children were shot and one was stabbed. So who did that?  And did Tibs really see David in the smoke before he jumped out of the building?  

Even though I knew the ending, I kept hoping more people would come out.   ?

[Jazzhands]

2 minutes ago, KLJ said:

Were all the women and children really trapped and unable to get out? I was reading that some of the children were shot and one was stabbed.

In one of the accounts that I read (and if I remember the source I’ll edit this post to add it), it said that many of the women were trapped and, when they realized they couldn’t get out and the building was burning, stabbed and/or shot some of the children so that they’d die quickly rather than burning alive. 

[peach]

3 hours ago, whinewithwine said:

That sums it up, and the government NEVER admitted it.

In fact, they doubled down on it with this tweet.  I guess they were feeling touchy because of this show.  (they got shredded in the replies)
 

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, whinewithwine said:

With over 400 canisters of CS gas being thrown into the compound with kerosene lanterns in use, it's much more likely the ATF started the fires.  

With their electricity cut off, the use of lamps and candles could easily have been predicted.  

[Cara]

12 hours ago, whinewithwine said:

I don't know of any such footage.  The cameras were several hundred yards away during the attack.  

The person I was watching  with showed it to me the other night after the show. I’ll get the link from him and post it when I see him later today. It’s black and white aerial footage. It’s not a news reel.

[Cara]

9 hours ago, peach said:

In fact, they doubled down on it with this tweet.  I guess they were feeling touchy because of this show.  (they got shredded in the replies)
 

There is plenty of blame to go around in this tragedy. But I think the biggest share belongs to the ATF. They should have never gone in after they realized the Davidians knew they were coming. That started the whole thing.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Cara

[peach]

31 minutes ago, Cara said:

There is plenty of blame to go around in this tragedy. But I think the biggest share belongs to the ATF. They should have never gone in after they realized the Davidians knew they were coming. That started the whole thing.

Right.  The burden is on the authorities to be sensible when confronting unstable people with persecution doomsday Apocalypse fantasies, not charge in there and make them come true.  They inadvertently legitimized Koresh to his people.

I think one of the most damning things about what they did was seeking media coverage to make a big show of assaulting the compound.  Pride goeth before a fall.  You wanted to be famous, well...here ya go.

And I don't mean to diminish the deaths of the agents, with my earlier post.  All the loss of life was a tragedy from the arrogance and mismanagement of the situation.

[peach]

16 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Part of me wants to believe that it's just bad 1990s camcorders, but their whole way of speaking is the same. There's one with four preteen girls where it's also really obvious. One of them starts talking about the Bible, and it's very strange. It's unlike any preteen girl I've known.

I saw part of that one.  The adults and the kids were all repeating the same implanted sounding things, about how David knows the Bible better than anyone.  Really?  Because a cursory glance at the gospels would tell you that Jesus said many false prophets and false Christs would come at the end times (that they adhere to), but do not believe them.  "See, I have told you ahead of time.  If anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it."  Matthew 24:25-26  I mean...pretty straightforward.

But they all repeat that David knows the Bible better than anyone because that's what David said.  And he could ramble on FOREVER quoting lots of random scriptures together in a word salad that made him sound authoritative, I guess.  But none of those things meant what he said they meant.  You don't have to believe in the Bible to understand the plain meaning about a lot of things Koresh was twisting around to make himself the second Messiah.  There are videos of him preaching, and everyone sits there droning the answers back to him like zombies.  Very strange.

[phantom]

I was 15 when this happened, watched the news coverage, and knew the terrible outcome. But this episode still was so, so hard to watch. David & the ATF/FBI - both too stubborn to back down and look weak. Both too dug in to admit that one side would have to swallow their pride to prevent a major tragedy. Nobody holes up for 51 days with babies and children who isn't committed to a cause. The thought that kept running through my head was "being willing to die isn't the same as wanting to die."

The actor who played Koresh had a few flashes of instability, narcissism and anger, but it was hard to see him as a guy people would give up their worldly possessions or their wives for. What about him made people think he was the lamb of god and not just another preacher well-versed in the Bible? Steve seemed to me more the kind of person who would be able to really lead a flock and convince them he had their best interest at heart, not David. And what happened to the lawyer guy, the one with the disabled child?

If they wanted us to wonder if Thibideaux escaped alive the producers should have minimized the font every episode that shouted his book as source material. I am curious if his quasi-romance with Michelle was something he acknowledges or was just to add dramatic tension.

[Ruprecht]

On 2/20/2018 at 2:25 PM, nkotb said:

 

Ironic that you mention Janet Reno, we were just discussing at work that the timing of Waco was jut crazy. Bill Clinton took office in January, 1993, & he appointed Reno as Attorney General on February 11, mere days before the saga started. She wasn't confirmed until March 11, when it was already underway. I'm not at all defending her, but it is just crazy that both President Clinton & Attorney General Janet Reno barely had time to put up a picture on their brand new desks before this all went down. I can't imagine a worse way to start a new job that'll have you in the public eye for 8 years.

 

The FBI played Janet Reno like a fiddle. They told her the children were being abused (I assume implying sexually and/or physically) which was a complete falsehood. Janet had her part to play in the notorious daycare abuse scandals of the 90s and that was just the right information to nudge her toward approving the operation. 

One thing that shocks me is that out of all the liberties the show took with the participants (which I know is necessary) is that the head of the tactical operations at Waco was the same person at Ruby Ridge which I think is inexcusable. 

[Unclejosh]

Children were being abused both sexually and physically per admission of the surviving Branch Davidians themselves.  Girls as young as 10 were being raped after being groomed for years by Koresh and with their parents permission.  The kids were beaten bloody with paddles if they spoke out of turn or acted up.  The parents of the kids admitted doing this because they believed they had to make the kids behave and listen to any adult there immediately without question or acting up because they knew the assault would eventually come and the kids had to be obedient in this event.

This has zero to do with how the ATF and FBI operated tactically nor does it excuse the way the assaults happened, but the abuse was real and something needed to be done.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Unclejosh

[Unclejosh]

I think Thibodeau barely knew Michelle and just married her to avoid any polygamy or statutory rape charges against Koresh.  They did not have a romance like implied in the show if I remember correctly.

After seeing all sorts of documentaries and listening to various interviews with the survivors and reading various information online, I do think the BDs started the fire, but I also think the gas made it spread far quicker than they anticipated and I also think the FBI were shooting into the compound to prevent people from getting out and they likely used an explosive device on the bunker.  So I think the FBI decided to just all out assault the compound despite lying about it at the time and later but I also think the Davidians decided to kill themselves by lighting the fire.  I mean there are audio recordings of the members talking about and spreading the kerosene and also at least 1 of the survivors said he heard other members upstairs spreading the fuel and lighting it.  I think neither side had any intention of letting anyone leave alive. It is by accident that some survivors decided to live and got out of the house without being shot simply because they went out in areas that had cameras unlike the back which was were the shooting was taking place where no cameras were allowed.

So there is some truth to both sides and a conspiracy by the government in my opinion going on.

[peach]

30 minutes ago, Unclejosh said:

The kids were beaten bloody with paddles if they spoke out of turn or acted up.  The parents of the kids admitted doing this because they believed they had to make the kids behave and listen to any adult there immediately without question or acting up because they knew the assault would eventually come and the kids had to be obedient in this event.

Huh.  So that was their reasoning? There was some crazy parenting book going around fundamentalist circles in the 90's, about using ridiculous harsh discipline techniques on very young children.  IIRC it was written by or influence by someone from the Amish community? or some traditional group.  And his reasoning was something about he couldn't wait to negotiate or reason things out with a kid in a dangerous situation on a farm, etc.  It's vague to me now, I'll have to see if I can find something about it.  Anyway, the point was to have them obey without thinking.

It's interesting you bring this up, because in the home videos you can watch on YouTube (Inside Mt Carmel), each time a mom is asked about getting to see the videos of the children that left the compound, they all say the same thing:  they didn't show any emotion about missing the kids or anything; they all commented on how appalled they were seeing the kids jumping around and acting undisciplined, and eating candy.  And of course, they all said it the same way, same terms.  So bizarre.  You're holed up under siege by armed federal agents due to end times prophecy, your kids are in the custody of the state, and omg, THEY'RE EATING CANDY!

[Unclejosh]

I think despite some claims to the contrary, most of the parents there put David and their belief way above any love for their children so when they saw the video which to me shows a bunch of pretty happy kids who were getting to act like kids for the first time, they only saw disobedience which to them was an affront to God and their beliefs. They couldn't be happy for them because they were not their priority.  Just shows how twisted and sick Koresh's mind games were.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, Unclejosh said:

This has zero to do with how the ATF and FBI operated tactically nor does it excuse the way the assaults happened, but the abuse was real and something needed to be done.

I don't think anybody is saying that there was no abuse, or that it wasn't terrible, or that nothing should have been done about it.  But I think it's pretty clear that their tactics were horribly flawed, and the reason is probably because their strategic goals were misplaced.  It's pretty clear that the para-military HRT guys didn't want to have to report that they did nothing for 60 days, and the empass was finally resolved by the Crisis Negotiation Unit.  They wanted glory, they wanted budget, they wanted more guns, tanks and CS gas.  They had no respect for Noesner & company, because they thought that his type of approach to the matter wasn't gung-ho and balls-to-the-wall enough.  They obstructed their efforts at every turn, and never listened to a word they said.  

So, yes, something had to be done, but the Federal agencies obviously weren't the people to do it.

[Unclejosh]

No arguments on any criticism of the FBI tactics.

Somebody in this thread said no abuse happened and the report was false which is what I responded to.  It was not false and was way more horrific than most people realize or are willing to accept in their blaming of the governments terrible handling of the situation.

The gov't acted horribly and probably criminally but that again has zero to do with fact that kids were being raped and beaten.  I have no sympathy for Koresh or ANY of the parents/adults who died but the fact that abused kids were casualties in the government dick measuring against Koresh is the true tragedy.  I wish they had just sniped Koresh before the assault even happened when they were surveilling him.  

[IntrovertRed]

Just starting watching this, quite a number of Branch Davidians are interviewed.  

[whinewithwine]

3 hours ago, KLJ said:

Just starting watching this, quite a number of Branch Davidians are interviewed.  

Thanks for posting the link.  I just finished watching it.  It just confirmed what I already thought.  

1.  ATF clusterfuck and FBI cover up.

2.  I can't stand Chuck Schumer.

3.  Paul Fatta really got screwed.  He had taken most of the firearms to a San Antonio gun show that weekend and still got 15 years for aiding and abetting.  But at least he wasn't           gassed or shot and left in a field to rot for five days.