S07.E03: Standoff

[SuprSuprElevated]

On 2/27/2018 at 10:49 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I think of FBI-Boyfriend as Tall Rahm Emanuel.

Holy hell, he does look like Rahm!

[John Potts]

Carrie, you're supposedly a successful CIA Operative who's been in some pretty tight spots - so how come you can't talk your way out of getting booked by the cops? And even if you couldn't why didn't you call the FBI(?) guy - he knew exactly what you were doing there and would presumably do just the same as he did here, with considerably less Carrie angst (then again, gotta fill those 60 minutes!).

And on the subject of Carrie angst, just what did happen with Frannie? Is she still sitting on the curb outside the school? OK, I presume her sister picked her up, but it would be nice if she called to check!

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 4:31 AM, ruby24 said:

that general just agreeing to fire airstrikes without hearing it from the president because she went to bed "fifteen minutes ago?" Ummm....that was ABSURD. It would have made more sense if the general was openly mutinous or something, but even he objected to the order not coming from her. But then he's just like, alright?

You do start to wonder if the Military-Industrial Complex (to use an old term) really exist as a government in their own right (in Homeland world, at least) that just tolerate the existence of a civilian President. Otherwise, you'd think that faction would have been hammered by President Keane's purge. And what about her Chief of Staff? Is there nobody the President can trust?

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 5:59 AM, scrb said:

Brett is a POS for endangering all those people, including women and children.

ITA obviously, but what are the militia guys trying to achieve? "We can call in reinforcements" - you do realise the US government can too? Unless they think that the FBI/US army will mutiny rather than attack (which in Homeland is not impossible). They don't strike me as the type that are prepared to martyr themselves "for the cause", though it's always possible.

[paramitch]

I love this season so far. So of course it's a bummer to wade in here. But I put on extra armor! ;) 

I'll never understand the POV that Carrie's bipolar condition is a detriment to the drama, or the idea that the show should just have her be competent and smart 24/7. I mean, her disorder is integral to her ongoing life. Every minute, every hour, every day, week, month, year. That's the whole point of the show to me—that Carrie is both brilliant but also that the spark of her brilliance, that gift, is her curse and fatal flaw. It means she is not always trustworthy—to herself or others. It's a fantastic premise and for me the show has never deviated from that. 

So I can't imagine removing Carrie's bipolar disorder from the show or character's drama. It would be as odd to me as saying, "Well, I liked 'The Sopranos' except for all the mob stuff."

Onward! I liked the return of the Kabul operative, and his unexpected softness and understanding toward what she was suffering. Yes, it's perhaps telegraphed as part of the drama. But that's what this is. Homeland has always been operatic. So I don't mind. And the fact that he was able to save her, and then simply stop, and sit with her, I found unexpectedly moving. I actually kind of ship them now if this is the kind of person he is at heart. I feel like Carrie is a person who needs someone in her life, and that this is the kind of guy who could both understand her PTSD and challenges, that he'd accept and salute her patriotism and fervor to do the right thing, but who would also try (in a completely different way) to help her. Just as Quinn did. (It's interesting that he admitted he didn't stop drinking.)

And speaking of which: I love that Quinn has been a topic  of discussion onscreen so often this season. It really means something to me. I love and mourn him as a character, and the fact that Carrie and others still cry over him is genuinely heartbreaking and moving.

The only thing I haven't seen anyone else mention is the gun from episode one, the gun Carrie put back in the bag and carelessly stuffed into the box of winter things in her closet. I keep living in terror that Franny or the other younger daughter will shoot someone with it, and it's killing me. I just can't believe Carrie would NOT have a gun safe. And the box is on the floor (it's not even up in the top of the closet. Aghghg.

On 2/26/2018 at 3:37 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For those reasons, I think it's good that the show is drawing attention to a medical condition that is sometimes treated with shame and guilt. If you look at other medical conditions like cancer, patients are treated like warrior heroes. Mental health, on the other hand, is often treated very negatively. Showing it as something she lives with is a good thing.

I have a bipolar sibling, so I've always liked this show's inclusion of it. Yes, they get dramatic about it, but they also do (I think) attempt for a real understanding of how it affects lives and jobs (both inwardly and outwardly). 

On 2/26/2018 at 7:52 AM, attica said:

I too am weary of going back to the Manic Carrie storyline well again, but if I'm honest, I'll confess to feeling really bad for her this time. Her "I'm sick and going to be sick for a while" bit made me sad. Points to the show, on the other hand, for not doing exposition on her popping Adderall. They trusted the audience to both know what it is, and what it means for C.

To echo you and @slowpoked, I don't mind the bipolar aspect because it's a fact that it will be part of Carrie's life 24/7 going forward. It's part of who she is. I adore Carrie as a character. And that includes her fragility as a person and her bipolar disorder. It's part of her. And yeah, I totally cringed when she took the Adderall.

On 2/26/2018 at 2:36 PM, Bannon said:

I think it was a writing error to have her and Brody have a child.

I 100% agree, and I'll always regret it as a dramatic choice. But, at the same time, I accept and believe it as a part of the story. Much as I've disliked it in the past. However, the inclusion of Carrie's visible maturation in the past 3 seasons as a person has at least made me accept it without too much dislike. She is a better person, a richer and more mature person, with that kind of anchor (not that it has to be a child for others, mind you).

On 2/27/2018 at 7:49 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I thought this episode did the best job of any episode in the show's history of making me relate to Carrie's disease. Of course I always "got it," understood it as a plot device, had a mild degree of empathy for her, etc. But now I really could begin to feel what it must feel like. Her line, "It's like a nightmare that doesn't end when you wake up" (or however she put it) really hit home for me. And the reliance on drugs you can't rely on, the knowledge that nothing might work and yet the desperate need to self-medicate in the hope that something will work, the utter aloneness. Terrifying. In some ways I think the show is the best it has ever been.

I agree. I was heartbroken that here, Carrie's been doing everything right, everything according to requirement, and yet her meds are letting her down, and that's got to be incredibly upsetting. It must feel like a betrayal, even if it's simply chemistry and biology. She's tried to play by the rules, to do what's required, and yet she's at the mercy of this illness. And aside from it, she's a brilliant agent, a superb operative, and yet she's at the mercy of this illness. I find it terrifying and sad.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:54 PM, TVbitch said:

Jesus God. Yet ANOTHER hot guy who will not be able to resist crazy Carrie. I have yet to understand the appeal. ... ... But you sir, are no Quinn! 

Carrie is a beautiful woman who's smart, brave and talented. Not to mention the protagonist of a major drama. Of course she's going to connect romantically here and there. But how many times has she done so in seven seasons? How many times does the average male protagonist do so? I just can't judge Carrie for potential romantic chemistry with another major character and then clutch my pearls, here. But I know YMMV.

On 2/27/2018 at 9:36 PM, Pallas said:

If the 2016 election had turned out differently, how would that have affected the core of last year's and this year's plot?  Keane was always going to win, surely, and as President-Elect, work covertly with Carrie and eventually Saul. She would refuse to play ball with Adal and the Adal-cabal. There would be attempts to discredit her, followed by an attempt on her life, and her character would undergo a transformation, isolating her and setting her against the intelligence community in a far more aggressive way.

As I see it, she was always positioned to be the sympathetic object of Carrie's efforts last year, then become Carrie's antagonist this season.What would have changed?

This. Well said.

On 3/1/2018 at 7:58 AM, Lady Iris said:

Carrie broke my heart in the scene where they forced her hand onto the finger print thingy. But then I got mad because she keeps putting herself into these situations that could jeopardize her custody of Franny. 

Carrie is more than a mother. She's a patriot first. I think motherhood has forced her to address some conflicting feelings there, but I still think her oath to her country transcends almost everything else. And I'm cool with that. I'm so tired of motherhood in fiction as this sanctifying thing that woobifies characters. I know Carrie loves Franny (and would die for her). But it's not that simple.

Edited May 9, 2018 by paramitch
Fixed a mistake and also dialed back my tone, because I felt I went over the top. Thanks!

[Lady Iris]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, paramitch said:

Carrie is more than a mother. She's a patriot first. I think motherhood has forced her to address some conflicting feelings there, but I still think her oath to her country transcends almost everything else. And I'm cool with that. I'm so tired of motherhood in fiction as this sanctifying thing that woobifies characters. I know Carrie loves Franny (and would die for her). But it's not that simple.

I agree its not. But her angst at being dragged and forcibly fingerprinted expressed to me that she knew she was up sh*t's creek without a paddle. Ultimately it didn't matter since she got off scott free anyways.

[Roseanna]

On ‎27‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 6:19 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Because she's the one who Carrie saw in Wellington's house thanks to the spy cameras. She has been having an affair with Wellington. From this week's episode:

Dante: Simone Martin. Born outside Paris. Graduated from the London School of Economics. Met David Wellington in Budapest four years ago. They've been involved on and off ever since. She works for an NGO called the International Democracy Foundation....A vehicle registered to this woman was issued a parking ticket on March 30th in Hazelton, West Virginia. That's three miles from the prison where General McClendon was sentenced to spend the rest of his life. It's also the day before he died.

And so what? If she planned to murder the General, she would be stupid to use her own car. Before all, obviously she couldn't do it herself but had to hire someone insiden the prison and again, it would be stupid to meet the would-be assassin near the prison.  

On ‎7‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 5:50 PM, John Potts said:

Carrie, you're supposedly a successful CIA Operative who's been in some pretty tight spots - so how come you can't talk your way out of getting booked by the cops? And even if you couldn't why didn't you call the FBI(?) guy - he knew exactly what you were doing there and would presumably do just the same as he did here, with considerably less Carrie angst (then again, gotta fill those 60 minutes!).

I was thinking that Carrie was extremely stupid to break in to the house and by on the top of it. Why not call Max who could go in with some excuse?

And I have always wondered why Carrie and others in this show don't use gloves when making search. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:13 PM, paramitch said:

Carrie is more than a mother. She's a patriot first. 

Being a patriot can be many things of which some are very ugly and/or harmful.    

What does it mean in Carrie's case? "My country - right or wrong" or "My country - never wrong"? 

And what's difference between Carrie and O'Keefe? Both seem to believe that they alone know what's best for their country and have right to make decisions for it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:13 PM, paramitch said:

That's the whole point of the show to me—that Carrie is both brilliant but also that the spark of her brilliance, that gift, is her curse and fatal flaw. It means she is not always trustworthy—to herself or others. 

I don't regard Carrie particularly brilliant. She has had her moments, but in the endgame her record isn't very good:
- S1 she suspected Broby and by appealing to his daugher prevented him carry out his plan with the bomb belt but didn't succeed to convince others about Broby who continued his career
- S2 she turned Broby and found Abu Nazir but Langley was bombed  
- S3 she carried out about Saul's plan in turning Javadi and assisted Broby to murder the Iranian general but would have saved Brody although it had destroyed Javadi's changes
- S4 she learned that Haggani was alife and made a plan to kill him but was beaten by Haqqani and the Iranian female intelligence officer who were all the time a step before her
- S5 she trusted Allison far too long but in the end she saved Berlin from the terror attack
- S6 she didn't believe Quinn's perceptions nor did she suspect Dar and it was Quinn who find out about the assassination team and saved the PEOTUS and in the end she was duped by the POTUS

All in all, she has failed more often succeeded.

I agree that Carrie's particular talent and fatal flaw are two sides of the same thing. She has first an instict and then she trusts in it obstinately, refusing to believe the opposite evidence.

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 8:13 PM, paramitch said:

Carrie is more than a mother. She's a patriot first. I think motherhood has forced her to address some conflicting feelings there, but I still think her oath to her country transcends almost everything else. 

In S2-3 Carrie put Brody first: she didn't report on his murder of the Vice President, she left him flee after Langley was bombed, she put proving that he wasn't Langley's bomber before the operation, and she would have saved him in Iran although it would have endangered Javadi and therefore the operation   

Also generally one can ask whether her loyalty has really been to her country or is it rather (except in S5-6) been to the CIA?

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 6:31 AM, ruby24 said:

Also, that general just agreeing to fire airstrikes without hearing it from the president because she went to bed "fifteen minutes ago?" Ummm....that was ABSURD. It would have made more sense if the general was openly mutinous or something, but even he objected to the order not coming from her. But then he's just like, alright? 

 

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 7:59 AM, scrb said:

Yeah Wellington seems to have his own agenda, unless he's being played by the sexy French chick.  But she would have come up when he's getting background checks for his security clearance.  The FBI would know about her and every other person in his life.

 

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 1:37 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Wellington is a little weasel. I knew he was up to something as soon as he left. At first I was relieved that the general was following protocol and insisted that he needed to hear authorization directly from Keane, but then he just gave in after Wellington's "weeeeeeell, she might change her mind in the morning so let me just give you the code right now - just in case!"

 

On ‎27‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 10:46 AM, dwmarch said:

The General knew what was up, that was why he had the Chief of Staff repeat himself slowly and explicitly. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is either of these individuals thinking that a successful airstrike that distracts from the President's domestic worries will justify itself in retrospect. Keane is still going to be super pissed when she finds out about it regardless of whether or not it changes the headlines.

 

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 1:02 AM, gallimaufry said:

Moreover, the stuff with Wellington and the General is utterly ridiculous.  It's the sort of twist you can get away with on 24 because of the extreme tension of the day and you know it'll be addressed within an hour or two (but even then, they literally had a whole story arc about the Chief of Staff acting to force the president's hand to launch a strike).  Keane has the potential to be an interesting president but at the moment the show is struggling with the credibility gap of wanting to tell a Trump story with a superficially similar but actually quite different president.  I thought at the end of last season they'd managed to pull off the impossible and re-cast her as a paranoid authoritarian but it's hard to stick the landing.

 

On ‎7‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 5:50 PM, John Potts said:

You do start to wonder if the Military-Industrial Complex (to use an old term) really exist as a government in their own right (in Homeland world, at least) that just tolerate the existence of a civilian President. Otherwise, you'd think that faction would have been hammered by President Keane's purge. And what about her Chief of Staff? Is there nobody the President can trust?

It think it's in a way admirable that the President has kept her promise to reduce the armed forces and not to interfere with the outside world, despite of pressures of the generals and Wellington and despite of awareness that the air strike would change attention from O'Keefe. In the same time I wonder whether it's a realistic foreign policy. What I mean is that situations are different, so only one method doesn't lead to a good result - what is good in one situation, is bad in other situation.

It seems strange that Wellington risk his career that is solely due to the President by acting against her expressed orders. Did he think that when the deed has been done, she can't publish the fact as it would humilate her authority? Or that she would forgive him after realizing that he had indeed acted for her best interests?

This time there wasn't even a hint of the murder of Becket between Keane and Wellington, unlike before the death of the general: the king says "who will rid me from that man", some of his nobles kills the bishop but afterwards the king can dissociate himself from the deed as he didn't expressly say "go out and murder him"   

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 1:37 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But was this all part of their plan? Did he tell Sharon to sneak out and "warn" the FBI about the incoming reinforcements to escalate things (and let her finally get the hell out of dodge like she's clearly wanted to do for ages)? It seemed highly coincidental that all of the militia guys showed up right after she told them. I guess it's also possible that she overheard them talking about it and then she decided it was time to get the fuck out before the FBI killed everyone in the compound. 

I think it was O'Keefe's final refusal to accept the terms of surrender that would have saved all else, including Sharon, that made Sharon to flee. She finally realized that he only cared of himself.

[Roseanna]

Once again about Carrie's brilliance which I think is rather obstinacy.

I just read a Swedish study about cops that tried to ask why in some famous cases the murderer was never revealed or the wrong person was sentenced for prison. The central problem is that the cops had one pet theory and they forgot to ponder alternative explanations.

One thing is the emotional state of cops. Angry cops were inclined to dismiss new evidence and hold on their preconceived idea whereas new cops were willing to change their minds if the new edivence was at variance with their preconceived idea.

Carrie, if anybody, is generally angry.

There was an important difference between countries. In Norway, both inexperienced and experienced criminal police officers came up with equally few hypotheses whereas in England the experienced criminal police officers came up with multitude of various hypotheses. According to the study, the difference is due to different training. Norway has reacted to the results of the study, Sweden hasn't. 

[misstwpherecool]

On 3/7/2018 at 7:50 AM, John Potts said:

Carrie, you're supposedly a successful CIA Operative who's been in some pretty tight spots - so how come you can't talk your way out of getting booked by the cops? And even if you couldn't why didn't you call the FBI(?) guy - he knew exactly what you were doing there and would presumably do just the same as he did here, with considerably less Carrie angst (then again, gotta fill those 60 minutes!).

And on the subject of Carrie angst, just what did happen with Frannie? Is she still sitting on the curb outside the school? OK, I presume her sister picked her up, but it would be nice if she called to check!

You do start to wonder if the Military-Industrial Complex (to use an old term) really exist as a government in their own right (in Homeland world, at least) that just tolerate the existence of a civilian President. Otherwise, you'd think that faction would have been hammered by President Keane's purge. And what about her Chief of Staff? Is there nobody the President can trust?

ITA obviously, but what are the militia guys trying to achieve? "We can call in reinforcements" - you do realise the US government can too? Unless they think that the FBI/US army will mutiny rather than attack (which in Homeland is not impossible). They don't strike me as the type that are prepared to martyr themselves "for the cause", though it's always possible.

Can't talk yourself out of being booked by cops-in the US. It's almost an underlying theme that dealing with your own is just as hard as anyone else. Unlike many of the foreign countries she goes to where procedure is easily and purposely over looked it doesn't work that way in the US even though there are plenty of corrupt law enforcement officials. Also in the DC area or neighborhood with known high ranking officials the police probably pay extra attention. I don't know wether it's on purpose or not but Quinn also got caught when he entered the Iranian's murdered wife house as well.

When Dar said there was something off about the Keene at the end of S6 I thought they would run with that a little more. Instead they're using the chief of staff as the scape goat or cop out.

[scrb]

I just listened to the Slate podcast, Standoff Ep. 2: Rules of Engagement.

It's the story of Randy Weaver, hiding out in Idaho, to evade arrest.

Weaver would not turn himself in and law enforcement wasn't going to arrest him by force if it meant possibly hurting or killing his wife and children who were expected to resist violently. Supposedly he considered turning himself in but his wife encouraged him not to, because they believed some prophecy where they'd defeat all these cops trying to apprehend him.

So law enforcement staked out nearby Weaver's property.   Weaver's 14-year old son went out with their family dog and a rifle.  The dog detected the undercover cops.  What happened is a matter of dispute, whether the cops shot first or Weaver's son.  But Weaver's son and a veteran law enforcement officer both died.

 

The way this is described in the podcast is exactly how they staged the scene in this episode, except the wife in this episode didn't want to risk her children to keep her husband from being arrested as Weaver's wife did.  And I don't think anyone shot first.  The son raised the rifle which caused the cops to shoot him and in response, the fictional character executed the FBI guy they were holding hostage.

But Homeland seems to have lifted most of the details for the scene from the real-life shooting involving Weaver's son.