S13.E07: War of the Worlds

[SueB]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Alas, I think this being anything more than oh, look, cool glowy things! is giving the show too much credit.

I'm with @catrox14 on this. Jerry Wanek has said that every prop, every scene has a purpose.  They spend an inordinate amount of time on the imagery.  Jerry was particulary proud of the production design for this episode (https://twitter.com/JerryWanek) .  In the book "Fan Phenomena: Supernatural" Serge Ladouceur talked about working with Jerry on the collaberation on the lighting.  And Richard Speight Jr? Richard is DEFINITELY is going for layered imagery in his shots.  He spends weeks planning every shot in advance.  He spoke about his process in DC. He wouldn't reveal any spoilers (the episode hadn't aired yet), but he said each episode is like shooting a movie - that much goes into it. 

Wanek was so very proud of the set w/ Michael that he posted BTS photos after the fact.  

So, in a show with Angels and Demons and Good vs Evil.... a lighted crucifix over a character's shoulder is not likely a throw-away prop or coincidence.

If you've ever listened/read a podcast or interview by the crew, you know how much they put into the show.  This is their art IMO.  You may find it 'crap' but there are plenty of quotes talking about how much everyone still cares about a quality product. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by SueB
added Jerry's link

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm with @catrox14 on this. Jerry Wanek has said that every prop, every scene has a purpose.  They spend an inordinate amount of time on the imagery.  In the book "Fan Phenomena: Supernatural" Serge Ladouceur talked about working with Jerry on the collaberation on the lighting.  And Richard Speight Jr? Richard is DEFINITELY is going for layered imagery in his shots.  He spends weeks planning every shot in advance.  He spoke about his process in DC. He wouldn't reveal any spoilers (the episode hadn't aired yet), but he said each episode is like shooting a movie - that much goes into it. 

Wanek was so very proud of the set w/ Michael that he posted BTS photos after the fact.  

So, in a show with Angels and Demons and Good vs Evil.... a lighted crucifix over a character's shoulder is not likely a throw-away prop or coincidence.

If you've ever listened/read a podcast or interview by the crew, you know how much they put into the show.  This is their art IMO.  You may find it 'crap' but there are plenty of quotes talking about how much everyone still cares about a quality product. 

As I already responded to @catrox14, I do enjoy and appreciate the set work and cinematography in the show. But I'll believe this has anything to do with a Dean/Michael connection - which was the subject of the post I - when I see it. (I won't hold my breath though.)

Not sure where you got the 'crap' quote from, but it wasn't me.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

As I already responded to @catrox14, I do enjoy and appreciate the set work and cinematography in the show. But I'll believe this has anything to do with a Dean/Michael connection when I see it. (I won't hold my breath though.)

It may not be Michael/Dean connection but do you accept that the imagery is deliberate?  Is so, then what other purpose than connecting the two characters would you give to that imagery?  Seriously asking for your thoughts.  If it had only been behind Michael's shoulder I would have gone with "cool imagery".  But behind Dean as well seem purposeful to me.  What that connection may be I don't know.  Could be as simple as Michael is "leader" of the AU world and Dean is "leader" of Team Free Will.  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

It may not be Michael/Dean connection but do you accept that the imagery is deliberate?  Is so, then what other purpose than connecting the two characters would you give to that imagery?  Seriously asking for your thoughts.  If it had only been behind Michael's shoulder I would have gone with "cool imagery".  But behind Dean as well seem purposeful to me.  What that connection may be I don't know.  Could be as simple as Michael is "leader" of the AU world and Dean is "leader" of Team Free Will.  

They wanted us to accept Sam as the 'leader', so I doubt that's the message. I don't think I do accept it was deliberately placed behind Dean for a reason. I just don't share your faith in the subtleties of the show any more, but I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. Maybe now that it's aired, someone can ask Richard if it was a conscious choice.

[catrox14]

I've always thought the show really lucked out with Serge and Jerry Wanek. If the show never gets awards for writing or acting I'm mystified that it never gets nods for set design and cinematography, especially. Jensen mentioned on some of his directing commentary and maybe even at a con panel that every thing that goes on screen is reviewed and approved by someone, which is one reason I still can't figure out how that THE END picture landed in 12.02, but mistakes happen cause people aren't perfect of course, dagnabit.

I still love that back in Lazarus Rising, Wanek et al totally spoiled/hinted that angels/Castiel was coming when they had the shot of Dean looking out the window of the gas station with all the glass beginning to break and the noise that Dean couldn't tolerate. On either side of the window it read "wings" as in chicken wings and "No smoking".  That's so great. That's when I was like okay this show does some pretty smart things beyond writing and acting.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

It may not be Michael/Dean connection but do you accept that the imagery is deliberate?  Is so, then what other purpose than connecting the two characters would you give to that imagery?  Seriously asking for your thoughts.  If it had only been behind Michael's shoulder I would have gone with "cool imagery".  But behind Dean as well seem purposeful to me.  What that connection may be I don't know.  Could be as simple as Michael is "leader" of the AU world and Dean is "leader" of Team Free Will.  

TBH, I don't think it was meant to be a connection between Michael and Dean--it very well could be, but since they were two different episodes with two different directors, I'm skeptical. Don't get me wrong, I imagine both shots were purposely blocked, but probably not to connect Dean and Micheal but were both symbolic images for the different scenes. With Dean, I think it invokes an imagery of miracles and Christ himself being risen from the dead which fits with Castiel's resurrection and Dean asking for a win. With Micheal, I think it is more symbolic of righteousness--and possibly arrogance--which I think fits with who Micheal supposed to be in the AU.

[SueB]

Excellent point about two different Directors!  That changes things considerably IMO.  Now it still could be on purpose but it also has two different directorial views.  

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't think it was meant to be a connection between Michael and Dean--it very well could be, but since they were two different episodes with two different directors, I'm skeptical. Don't get me wrong, I imagine both shots were purposely blocked, but probably not to connect Dean and Micheal but were both symbolic images for the different scenes. With Dean, I think it invokes an imagery of miracles and Christ himself being risen from the dead which fits with Castiel's resurrection and Dean asking for a win. With Micheal, I think it is more symbolic of righteousness--and possibly arrogance--which I think fits with who Micheal supposed to be in the AU.

They weren't crucifixes though, just crosses.

[SueB]

41 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They weren't crucifixes though, just crosses.

Both cross and crucifix are symbols of Christian resurrection.  Just because one has dead Jesus on it (crucifix) doesn't give it a different fundamental meaning regarding identification with death, sacrifice, and resurrection imagery. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Both cross and crucifix are symbols of Christian resurrection.  Just because one has dead Jesus on it (crucifix) doesn't give it a different fundamental meaning regarding identification with death, sacrifice, and resurrection imagery. 

Actually, they do represent different things according to some - the crucifix as a reminder of the suffering and sacrifice, and the plain cross, of resurrection. If we're talking straight up imagery though, as in its use here in the show, then to me, as a non-believer, the crucifix would be a much more religious symbol than a plain cross.

[SueB]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Actually, they do represent different things according to some - the crucifix as a reminder of the suffering and sacrifice, and the plain cross, of resurrection. If we're talking straight up imagery though, as in its use here in the show, then to me, as a non-believer, the crucifix would be a much more religious symbol than a plain cross.

As a Catholic, I assure you the crucifix is very much about resurrection as well as Jesus’ sacrifice.  And yes, I get that the imagery of an agonizing figure is more dramatic but I think it’s misrepresentation to say the cross is ‘not as religious’.  Perhaps, as you said, some believers and nonbelievers might see them as different but both are unambiguous religious symbols. 

As for ‘intention’ in the scene, I suspect many recognize that the cross over Dean’s shoulder is a reuse of an existing prop.  

I exchanged tweets with someone watching in the day - her comments:

From my exchangewith @JulieHolden:
 

Quote

 

Me: Thanks for the pics! Question: Was there really a building with a cross glowing on it (as seen in the show) behind Jensen or do you think that was added in post production?

@JulieHolden: It was really there and it's actually a recycled prop. I saw it on the set where Cas and Metraton fought in the alley a few seasons back and also noticed it in a couple other eps.

 

plus...

Quote

@JulieHolden Here's a photo from S13 that I didn't post and one from my Flickr from 11x06 with the same prop.

Will post pics when off mobile 

[gonzosgirrl]

Yep, I recall the glowing cross in other episodes as well.

A quick search this morning found many articles, especially from Catholic clergy, speaking about the differences between crucifix and cross. I don't think it really matters for purposes of this episode, but regardless of interpretation - the actual symbol used on the show is a cross, not a crucifix (physically different things), which was my only point to begin with.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yep, I recall the glowing cross in other episodes as well.

A quick search this morning found many articles, especially from Catholic clergy, speaking about the differences between crucifix and cross. I don't think it really matters for purposes of this episode, but regardless of interpretation - the actual symbol used on the show is a cross, not a crucifix (physically different things), which was my only point to begin with.

Then I think we are in violent agreement because that was my point as well.  And I agree the nuances between crucifix vs cross are not leveraged on the show except for perhaps ‘Sacrifice’, (as that was a parallel to what Sam was doing) or when they want the grisly imagery.  

[Bobcatkitten]

Looks like there was a cross and a crucifix in the Michael scenes.

 

 

[SueB]

Yep. And a prominent crucifix in the room where he’s torturing Lucifer is some sort of parallel — maybe in the AU the anti-Christ (Lucifer) being tortured is poetic?

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yep, I recall the glowing cross in other episodes as well.

A quick search this morning found many articles, especially from Catholic clergy, speaking about the differences between crucifix and cross. I don't think it really matters for purposes of this episode, but regardless of interpretation - the actual symbol used on the show is a cross, not a crucifix (physically different things), which was my only point to begin with.

My point wasn't that crosses were crucifixes, but that an image of the cross, for most people, invokes ideas of Christ and miracles and God and faith and... .

So, in the case of Dean, I think they framed the shot the way they did for the imagery of miracles and faith. And, they way they framed it with Micheal was more invoking of righteousness and arrogance, IMO. 

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My point wasn't that crosses were crucifixes, but that an image of the cross, for most people, invokes ideas of Christ and miracles and God and faith and... .

So, in the case of Dean, I think they framed the shot the way they did for the imagery of miracles and faith. And, they way they framed it with Micheal was more invoking of righteousness and arrogance, IMO. 

Definitely possible.  Although I’m not sure if the needle budged for Dean on faith — he was pretty salty in 13.1 and he knows it’s likely God didn’t intervene.  Still, it was a win.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Actually, they do represent different things according to some - the crucifix as a reminder of the suffering and sacrifice, and the plain cross, of resurrection. If we're talking straight up imagery though, as in its use here in the show, then to me, as a non-believer, the crucifix would be a much more religious symbol than a plain cross.

There was a big ole crucifix on Michaels side in that church along with the glowing cross. Which is not particularly noticeable in the episode but it's on the set pics.  I think it's interesting that both were used in this episode, but the empty crosses were only shown with Dean and Michael.

And interesting to me is that Dean was  resurrected by Billie in 13.05 as Cas was resurrected/woken by Jack and apparently allowed to return by the Entity and both ended up by that cross. 

I sure hope the image of Christ being crucified whilst Michael tortured Lucifer isn't aligning Lucifer with Jesus for redemption and Savior but  a misdirect and Lucifer wants to kill Michael to take over earth completely.

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

Definitely possible.  Although I’m not sure if the needle budged for Dean on faith — he was pretty salty in 13.1 and he knows it’s likely God didn’t intervene.  Still, it was a win.  

I wasn't literally speaking of faith in Chuck, but more metaphorically speaking about faith in general. Dean had lost his faith in everything and having Cass returned restored some of that faith and gave him hope that there was a purpose. IMO, the cross over his shoulder was just meant to be a visual representation of that restoration of faith.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, in the case of Dean, I think they framed the shot the way they did for the imagery of miracles and faith. And, they way they framed it with Micheal was more invoking of righteousness and arrogance, IMO. 

Dean was the Righteous Man as well. I'm sure hoping the Lance of Michael comes back around for Dean also. I dunno, I'm getting my hopes up for a Dean/Michael thing not necessarily Dean as Michael's vessel but just some kind of meaningful mytharc, plot stuff FOR Dean with Michael. 

I don't understand why Cas didn't try to smite back at Asmodeus. I mean he didn't even try, and does Cas know that Lucifer is without some of his grace? I mean he should have pinged on that or did Lucifer tell him?

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand why Cas didn't try to smite back at Asmodeus. I mean he didn't even try, and does Cas know that Lucifer is without some of his grace? I mean he should have pinged on that or did Lucifer tell him?

Lucifer told him he was 'a little low on grace'.

My poor horse is begging for mercy now, but before I put it out of its misery: all my comments were in reference to 1) catrox's original post showing the glowy crosses (not crucifixes) and then DDD's post referring to them as crucifixes. Done with semantics though. And I still don't believe they are meant to draw parallels between Dean and Michael, whatever else their significance may (or may not) be.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was the Righteous Man as well.

Again, I'm speaking more metaphorical, not literal. I'm using righteous in the sense that one believes they are morally right or just in the eyes of God. 

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand why Cas didn't try to smite back at Asmodeus. I mean he didn't even try, and does Cas know that Lucifer is without some of his grace? I mean he should have pinged on that or did Lucifer tell him?

I don't think Cass can smite Asmodeus--he barely could stand toe to toe with Alastair and Asemodeus should be far more powerful than that--and I'd think Cass would know that and know it would be foolish to even try. 

ETA: Cass saw that Lucifer was depowered in some way which Luci coughing and such after his big display of red eyes for the angels.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lucifer told him he was 'a little low on grace'.

Thanks, so that is weird to me. Seems like Cas should have pinged on that.

I'm putting that in my list of
Reasons Cas ain't right 2k13:

1) Couldn't heal the bank guard
2) Hasn't used his smiting powers at all thus far, not even on the 3 angels that attacked him. He had to be saved by Lucifer. Weird.
3) Just generally weird in his cadence and reactions (this is highly subjective and just my read on it)
4) Didn't make mention or seemed to notice that Lucifer was low on fuel.

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Again, I'm speaking more metaphorical, not literal. I'm using righteous in the sense that one believes they are morally right or just in the eyes of God. 

I know that's what you meant. I was just adding my own thoughts to yours. Just adding to the discussion

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Cass can smite Asmodeus--he barely could stand toe to toe with Alastair and Asemodeus should be far more powerful than that--and I'd think Cass would know that and know it would be foolish to even try.

I don't think he can smite him either. My point was that he didn't even try whether it would be foolish or not, why wouldn't he at least try to do something? Lucifer at least tried to bluff. Cas didn't even try to throw an angel blade at him.

Misha said when Cas came back this time he was supposed to be more than he was before so maybe Misha was trolling or meaning something different.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I don't think he can smite him either. My point was that he didn't even try whether it would be foolish or not, why wouldn't he at least try to do something? Lucifer at least tried to bluff. Cas didn't even try to throw an angel blade at him.

Why should he do something he knew was pointless? I mean, at some point you have to realize you're overpowered and need to just bide your time instead of acting foolishly and ending up in a worse mess.

[catrox14]

56 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Looks like there was a cross and a crucifix in the Michael scenes.

 

 

I can't remember seeing that prominently in the episode which is weird because Jerry tweeted out a pic of that as well as Christian Keyes. I'm wondering if the lighting in the episode made it less noticeable.

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Why should he do something he knew was pointless? I mean, at some point you have to realize you're overpowered and need to just bide your time instead of acting foolishly and ending up in a worse mess.

Well, because it's Cas. And I don't mean that to be mean. Cas will generally try to do something regardless of it's likelihood of success. Even beyond that Cas didn't try to smite the angels at the sandbox either when they were right there. Like literally within arm's reach. There has been a weird lack of smiting by the angels this season too. Hmmm.

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, because it's Cas. And I don't mean that to be mean. Cas will generally try to do something regardless of it's likelihood of success. Even beyond that Cas didn't try to smite the angels at the sandbox either when they were right there. Like literally within arm's reach. There has been a weird lack of smiting by the angels this season too. Hmmm.

Remember this guy? The one who fought through presumably every demon in Hell to raise Dean from Perdition? Yeah, he would have at least tried to fight Asmodeus and his stunt demons.

 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Remember this guy? The one who fought through presumably every demon in Hell to raise Dean from Perdition? Yeah, he would have at least tried to fight Asmodeus and his stunt demons.

Thank you! Yes, this is what I was getting at. Cas would TRY to fight even if he failed. He tried to fight Dagon until she got the upper hand. If Asmodeus wanted Cas dead he'd be dead. So in some ways Cas not engaging a fight, played right into Asmodeus' hands. Because IF Cas had fought back Asmodeus or one of his stunt demons may have killed Cas which would have been bad for Dean and Cas and everyone else, but would be better than him being captured because now Cas is a bargaining chip for Jack. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Well, because it's Cas. And I don't mean that to be mean. Cas will generally try to do something regardless of it's likelihood of success. Even beyond that Cas didn't try to smite the angels at the sandbox either when they were right there. Like literally within arm's reach. There has been a weird lack of smiting by the angels this season too. Hmmm.

Well, not fighting isn't necessarily doing nothing. Sometimes a better strategy to acting is gathering intel.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, not fighting isn't necessarily doing nothing. Sometimes a better strategy to acting is gathering intel

Who was he gathering intel on? Asmodeus? He didn't know Asmodeus was coming for him at all. If he gathered intel on Asmodeus in his jail, how is he going to communicate that to anyone?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The door was not completely closed. He even told Sam earlier that He and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90. I think her realistic hesitation should be more appreciated.

Responding in All Seasons.

[gonzosgirrl]

Burning question: Who is the 'hunter on the payroll' who told stunt demon #1 that the Winchesters lost 'The Jack'? I don't see how it could be Ketch, as he'd have no way of knowing that - presuming he was not on Sam's list of 'every single hunter we know', and he seemed pretty preoccupied with killing witches and looking for Rowena. Plus, I don't see Ketch answering to some random demon, in any case.

Burning question #2: Did anyone else LOL at the demon's use of "The Jack"? I mean seriously, what was that?

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, not fighting isn't necessarily doing nothing. Sometimes a better strategy to acting is gathering intel.

The scene didn't leave the impression that getting captured as opposed to attempting to fight them off was strategic. It looked like both Lucifer and Cas getting flicked up against the wall like a couple of bugs. I guess Azazel must've really been the weak limb in the Prince of Hell family tree.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Burning question: Who is the 'hunter on the payroll' who told stunt demon #1 that the Winchesters lost 'The Jack'? I don't see how it could be Ketch, as he'd have no way of knowing that - presuming he was not on Sam's list of 'every single hunter we know', and he seemed pretty preoccupied with killing witches and looking for Rowena. Plus, I don't see Ketch answering to some random demon, in any case.

Burning question #2: Did anyone else LOL at the demon's use of "The Jack"? I mean seriously, what was that?

That whole scene was so stupid. The Jack ? Like WHY? Did they not ever hear the name JACK before? Give me a break. Stupid.

I don't think it was Ketch. I think it's someone important. Someone we already know, who has a stake in all demon that we know already. I find it hard to believe it would be Stunt Demon 55. What happened to Gerald? Is he dead?

What about Walt or Roy? LOL I mean is there any evidence they went to Heaven? Maybe they are in Hell and back topside as Demon Hunters, not demon hunters. I mean they did kill Dean and Sam. I'd think Chuck might not like that.

Maybe it's Rowena herself? That would be fun. Maybe she wants Jack to get vengeance on Lucifer for you know killing her.

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That whole scene was so stupid. The Jack ? Like WHY? Did they not ever hear the name JACK before? Give me a break. Stupid.

I don't think it was Ketch. I think it's someone important. Someone we already know, who has a stake in all demon that we know already. I find it hard to believe it would be Stunt Demon 55. What happened to Gerald? Is he dead?

Maybe it's Rowena herself? That would be fun. Maybe she wants Jack to get vengeance on Lucifer for you know killing her.

Why would he specifically say 'a hunter on the payroll' though? Rowena isn't a hunter, nor is the demon. I thought maybe that's why Ketch made a point of saying he was a hunter now - but how would he know they'd lost Jack? I can't recall for sure if the BMOL knew about Kelly, but I'm thinking they did? And what about other hunters? How much did Sam tell them about who "Jack" is? I know I made a joke about that particular conversation, but seriously, I'd like to know.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why would he specifically say 'a hunter on the payroll' though? Rowena isn't a hunter, nor is the demon. I thought maybe that's why Ketch made a point of saying he was a hunter now - but how would he know they'd lost Jack? I can't recall for sure if the BMOL knew about Kelly, but I'm thinking they did? And what about other hunters? How much did Sam tell them about who "Jack" is? I know I made a joke about that particular conversation, but seriously, I'd like to know.

Well, if Sam's been talking to "every hunter we know" he could have found out through the grapevine.

 

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's someone important. Someone we already know,

There really aren't that many hunters that we've met and are still alive.  Sam and Dean.  We can rule them out. I hope. That would be a horrid twist. Jodie, Donna, and Claire.  If they're getting a spinoff they're off the hook. There's the two hunters left from Free to Be You and Me.  Maybe there's a stray Campbell we didn't meet.  Not exactly filling your requirement, but I really can't think of any others.  Garth.  Maybe one of the Ghostfacers decided to be a hunter.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why would he specifically say 'a hunter on the payroll' though?

Maybe the hunter isn't really a hunter but someone claiming to be a hunter.

Although, if it is a legitimate hunter maybe it's Bucky? Or Max? That would suck.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, if Sam's been talking to "every hunter we know" he could have found out through the grapevine.

 

There really aren't that many hunters that we've met and are still alive.  Sam and Dean.  We can rule them out. I hope. That would be a horrid twist. Jodie, Donna, and Claire.  If they're getting a spinoff they're off the hook. There's the two hunters left from Free to Be You and Me.  Maybe there's a stray Campbell we didn't meet.  Not exactly filling your requirement, but I really can't think of any others.  Garth.  Maybe one of the Ghostfacers decided to be a hunter.

Walt or Roy?

Dean really shoulda killed them like he promised.

Seems like any hunters left alive would think twice about sharing scuttlebutt with Ketch though. Or "Alexander".  ETA: I can't see any of the others selling out to a demon though, which being on the payroll implies. Not even the Ghostfacers - I think their attitude toward the Winchesters probably softened after ThinMan.

Ketch did say he hunted for a price, so I guess we're supposed to infer it was him 'on the payroll', but I don't see how he would know about Jack, never mind that they lost him.

Edited November 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Walt or Roy?

Dean really shoulda killed them like he promised.

I think they are supposedly both dead now which is why I thought maybe they came back as Demon Hunters.

Alive hunters

Garth
The woman from s3 whose husband drank bleach
Krissy and those kids
The Werewolf chick could have become a hunter
Walt or Roy if alive which I don't think they are
Any of the hunters from Asa Fox. Maybe his mother flipped out and turned hunter just to rat out people LOL

OH GODS. COLE? I'LL BET IT'S COLE. I bet he became a hunter and the boys don't know about him.
 

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they are supposedly both dead now which is why I thought maybe they came back as Demon Hunters.

Alive hunters

Garth
The woman from s3 whose husband drank bleach
Krissy and those kids
The Werewolf chick could have become a hunter
Walt or Roy if alive which I don't think they are
Any of the hunters from Asa Fox. Maybe his mother flipped out and turned hunter just to rat out people LOL

OH GODS. COLE? I'LL BET IT'S COLE. I bet he became a hunter and the boys don't know about him.
 

Why do you think Walt & Roy are dead? I could swear they all made it out of the BMOL raid alive?

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why do you think Walt & Roy are dead? I could swear they all made it out of the BMOL raid alive?

Walt was killed by the BMOL according to SuperWiki. Roy was last seen exploding the C4 to allow Jody and Sam to get to Hess. I'm not sure he made it out alive though.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Walt_and_Roy

Quote

The hunters barrel through the British Men of Letters Mobile Command, where a fire fight ensues as the hunters fight their way inside. During an exchange with BMOL guards, Walt is shot and killed. As Dr. Hess attempted to barricade herself, Roy uses C4 to blow the door off, allowing Jody Mills to kill Dr. Hess.

Trivia

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Walt was killed by the BMOL according to SuperWiki. Roy was last seen exploding the C4 to kill Hess. I'm not sure he made it out alive though.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Walt_and_Roy

I will definitely have to re-watch - I do not remember that at all, lol.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Walt or Roy?

Are the still alive?   I thought everyone got killed on the BMOL raid.

 

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OH GODS. COLE? I'LL BET IT'S COLE. I bet he became a hunter and the boys don't know about him.

That might be awesome or really terrible.  I can't decide.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Are the still alive?   I thought everyone got killed on the BMOL raid.

 

That might be awesome or really terrible.  I can't decide.

It will only be awesome if Dean and Sam get to shoot him at the same time as them telling him to stop calling   them  Sammy and Deano.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It will only be awesome if Dean and Sam get to shoot him at the same time as them telling him to stop calling   them  Sammy and Deano.

That's kind of what I was thinking.  I mean, not so specifically, but I still think he needs some payback.

[catrox14]

And supernatural wikia says the opposite. it says Walt survived and Roy was killed LOL. what?

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Walt

Quote

In Who We Are, Roy and Walt were among the hunters Sam and Dean called to fight the British Men of Letters. Despite their history, both sides held no grudges against each other and Roy and Walt agreed to join Sam's assault on the British Men of Letters compound.
Sam, Walt, and Jody confront Hess 1

Sam, Walt and Jody confront Doctor Hess.

During the attack, Walt acted as the team's explosives expert, blowing open several doors. Walt was one of only three hunters to survive the battle alongside Sam and Jody Mills, the others, including Roy, had been killed in the firefight. When Sam faced off with Doctor Hess, Walt held a gun on her and followed Sam's lead. After Jody killed Doctor Hess, Walt fled the compound with Sam and Jody as it was destroyed by explosives planted by the h

So who knows at this point

[catrox14]

So at this point it could be Walt or Roy or Zombie Walt or Zombie Roy or Demon Walt or Demon Roy

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And supernatural wikia says the opposite. it says Walt survived and Roy was killed LOL. what?

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Walt

So who knows at this point

Just watched the scene. Walt was the dark haired one right? He is alive - he was in the room with Jody and Sam when Hess was killed. Roy (blond) was shot.

I also saw Hess talking about Lucifer and his son-to-be, so that answered that question for me as well. But Ketch couldn't know that Jack had grown into a teenager in days, or that he'd escaped Sam & Dean's custody, unless another hunter told him. I wonder if it's another throwaway line that will be ignored, or if it will be important going forward. Or it was Ketch.

[catrox14]

at his is Roy

This is Walt

Kind of sucks that Roy died when he didn't  think Dean deserved to be killed and Walt lives who wanted both dead.

Lame.

What about Jesse and Cesar. That would completely suck if they are on the payroll. BOO I'm glad they did t return for the raid on the BMOL or they would be dead.

So Superwiki is Wrong. ?.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

at his is Roy

This is Walt

Then Roy is dead (or shot anyway - nobody returned for the body(s) on camera). Walt is alive.

[catrox14]

Thanks for doing the research. LOL

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Then Roy is dead (or shot anyway - nobody returned for the body(s) on camera). Walt is alive.