Season Four: Goren and Eames...And Hi, Mike Logan!

[WendyCR72]

21 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Fan loyalty.  They were touched at our uproar,

I buy that, given that "thank you/goodbye" video they had posted to YT.

[wknt3]

On 12/1/2016 at 1:26 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Like I said, that could be. I just heard both rumors. Considering Vincent and Kathryn did return, maybe that was true. I mean, if they wanted to leave, would they return so quickly? In any case, at least their ending was a bit more upbeat than in "Loyalty".

With these sort of casting issues it is really hard to know the truth and sometimes there isn't really any simple truth. Different network executives have different agendas, the producers have their own opinions and influences and often blame the networks, and a lot of times the actors and networks simply can't reach an agreement and different parties involved can see it as both leaving and being fired (even as they spin it the opposite way in the press). The only time we really know for sure is when someone is fired very publicly and sues or when a star leaves craploads of money on the table like Ted Danson with Cheers or Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. It could be that they didn't want to sign a contract for years at the money being offered, but did want to do a proper sendoff for the fans when it was offered. It could be that USA wanted to go a different direction, saw that it didn't work and went back on their hands and knees trying to avoid a sudden cancellation for a property and producer that had delivered so much like NBC did with the mothership. I have read the conflicting rumors too and I don't think we'll ever really know.

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I have read the conflicting rumors too and I don't think we'll ever really know.

Yeah. And I'm actually kind of glad VDO/KE are tight lipped about this stuff. In any case, I am grateful for the more positive ending Goren and Eames got and, at the same time, I liked it didn't end in a really sappy manner and was more "and on to the next case" sort of thing.  :-)  As I've said, I'm glad both characters exited alive! With this franchise, you never knew.

[WendyCR72]

"Inert Dwarf", the one with the scientist faking a debilitating condition, is on next. I still will never get how he fooled both his colleagues and both wives, etc. And nurses! Maybe he was a genius.

Or everyone had an amoeba eating their brains. The hole in logic in that one is rather large.

[WendyCR72]

"Ex-Stasis" is on, with murdering Mr. Wainwright, evil organ donor. (Live right...OR ELSE!) I never got how this guy could A) Donate as much as he did. I thought even donors have psychological exams? and B) How the guy could just walk around with a shard of glass in his body without a care!

I mean, wouldn't that HURT?

Gotta love fiction. If this was a "ripped from the headlines" deal, I'd hate to meet the real Wainwright or whomever.

[Maherjunkie]

I thought it was just a speck of glass, nothing debilitating.

[WendyCR72]

On 1/23/2017 at 6:06 PM, Maherjunkie said:

I thought it was just a speck of glass, nothing debilitating.

Well, it required opening him up to remove it (which sealed his fate). Ouch.  :-P

[ari333]

I like the show and only recently got into it. But that Goren character makes me cray. It's the way he cocks his head and stammers his words worse than Shatner on Star Trek. It makes me crazy.

I expect Goldblum's delivery to be weird (which also bugs me but I expect it)

Also why does the man partner always get to make the snarky smarty observations?

[Maherjunkie]

Not really.  Eames held her own.

[WendyCR72]

On 1/25/2017 at 1:59 PM, ari333 said:

I like the show and only recently got into it. But that Goren character makes me cray. It's the way he cocks his head and stammers his words worse than Shatner on Star Trek. It makes me crazy.

I expect Goldblum's delivery to be weird (which also bugs me but I expect it)

Also why does the man partner always get to make the snarky smarty observations?

With Bobby Goren, it's either love or hate. I fall on the love side. But he is - as he once told Eames - an "acquired taste". And the characters were based on Holmes and Watson, so Goren is the Holmes.

And Goren may get the glory, but as the series goes on, it becomes clear that he needs Eames. "In The Wee Small Hours" in S5 is an example. The S6 premiere "Blind Spot" is another, as is the S6 G/E finale (as there are two teams by S5) "Endgame". And the S7 finale, "Frame".

If you're looking for Eames-centric episodes, check out the S7 premiere "Amends", the aforementioned "Blind Spot", and "Lady's Man" from S8.

[WendyCR72]

"Stress Position" is on, and I always wondered if this was a "ripped from the headlines" story. And, if so, how the hell are "secret prisoners" able to be hidden?! Wouldn't some form of documentation come from somewhere?

That said, nice to see Mike Logan re-enter the L&O universe, even if his taste in girlfriends was seriously lacking.

[Maherjunkie]

Thank you!  Woof!

[WendyCR72]

I knew that would make you happy, @Maherjunkie!

[Xeliou66]

I am watching Stress Position as well, and I wouldn't doubt that it was based on real cases. I've heard numerous horror stories about sadistic prison guards abusing prisoners. 

It was a great idea to bring Mike Logan on as a detective when D'Onofrio couldn't do full seasons. I love seeing him in this episode with the CI characters, I like that they referenced Van Buren with Deakins calling her, and did anyone notice that the judge who Carver went to for the warrant was a recurring judge from the other L&O shows. 

Which of the guards do you think killed the victim at the start, or did they all do it together? That was never revealed exactly. 

[Maherjunkie]

My feeling was Kurt, but they're all viable.  This is the ep that brought me to the show, so I value everything in it.  I love how their liberal stripes show.  

 

She was not remotely good enough for him!  Wendy CR72, what flaws do you see?

[Xeliou66]

Kurt was the sadistic ringleader that Logan approached with the club at the end, right? I agree he was definitely the one who ordered it, but I'm unsure if he carried it out by himself, it would seem like he wouldn't want to get his hands dirty that way, and would have one of the others do the murder. 

I liked how this show was willing to take on the issue of corruption and abuse of power by cops, prison guards, prosecutors and judges, a lot of shows shy away from that or make it look like the authorities are always justified if they break the rules. Not the L&O franchise, they weren't shy about tackling these issues, and as a progressive myself I like that these shows do tackle progressive issues but without being preachy, condescending or overtly political. 

Stress Position is a great episode, one that I can watch over and over and not get tired of. 

[WendyCR72]

On 3/21/2017 at 4:00 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I am watching Stress Position as well, and I wouldn't doubt that it was based on real cases. I've heard numerous horror stories about sadistic prison guards abusing prisoners.

Oh, guards abusing prisoners is sadly seemingly not a shocking thing. My issue was the "hidden" prisoners on the rolls mentioned in the episode. I just don't see how that's possible. But it is still a good episode, so I won't be too hard on that.

I do agree it was sort of an inspired idea to bring back Mike Logan from Original Recipe L&O when VDO wanted a lighter schedule. I'm just surprised Dick Wolf allowed it! But pleasantly so.

[WendyCR72]

"The Unblinking Eye", where an actor has his fiancé killed, still amuses me if just for the Matt Damon voice cameo. (Still wonder if he just liked CI or if he remembered VDO from Mystic Pizza, where both appeared in.

And Deakins can actually carry off a corny eye patch.

[WendyCR72]

The "Joanie and Chachi" stuff in "No Exit" (on USA now) seems ironically timely with Erin Moran's death and the whole stuff with Scott Baio's statement, etc.!

[Maherjunkie]

Oh please, why couldn't it have just been Scott..

[WendyCR72]

On 4/27/2017 at 5:55 PM, Maherjunkie said:

Oh please, why couldn't it have just been Scott..

Not meaning this as shaming you, but I can't wish anyone dead, even if they are loathsome... But he really has opened himself up to the blowback he got, so...

[Maherjunkie]

I can happily wish someone dead!   So we balance each other out..

[WendyCR72]

Always did wonder if "Sex Club" was based on an actual case. Seems like something politicians would be mixed up in.

[Maherjunkie]

I think partly that loser Jeri Ryan was married to.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah it was based on Jack Ryan, a guy who ran for Senate against Barack Obama in Illinois in 2004 and it was revealed during the campaign that he had gone to sex clubs and tried to get his wife to do sex acts in public, just like in the episode. I'm sure other politicians have had similar scandals, there seems to be a never ending supply of corrupt and sleazy politicians.

[WendyCR72]

On 5/18/2017 at 11:08 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah it was based on Jack Ryan, a guy who ran for Senate against Barack Obama in Illinois in 2004 and it was revealed during the campaign that he had gone to sex clubs and tried to get his wife to do sex acts in public, just like in the episode. I'm sure other politicians have had similar scandals, there seems to be a never ending supply of corrupt and sleazy politicians.

Heh, I see the name Jack Ryan and think of the fictional character in The Hunt For Red October. The real one sounds like a complete pig. Goes to show that lurid crap like this always makes for a "ripped from the headlines" story for the franchise!

[WendyCR72]

"Stress Position" aired the other night, and one thing about the ending is feeling sorry for all of the actors involved. They looked like they were all freezing to death at the end of that one. At least the actors playing prisoners had blankets or I'd feel worse for them since it looked like most had no coats!

[Maherjunkie]

I felt bad for them because of the barely believable ending.

[Xeliou66]

20 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

I felt bad for them because of the barely believable ending.

How was the ending barely believable? 

[Maherjunkie]

Goren talking them all out of  it seemed pushing it.

[WendyCR72]

57 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

Goren talking them all out of  it seemed pushing it.

Maybe, but I liked there was no shoot 'em up stuff we probably would have seen if this was still the '80s. I do buy his fellow serviceman (the bald white guard) listened to him, anyway.

But that whole story seemed to have holes. If this was a "headline" story, it makes me wonder how "secret" prisoners were a thing. (Hence a hole to me.) No intake? No paperwork? All weird, to me.

[Xeliou66]

I didn't find the story to be far fetched, with the whole Patriot Act BS ( I loved Logan's line about reading the Patriot Act under its original title : 1984 ) and the whole mass big brother surveillance that was so prominent after 9/11, I bought it. As far as the ending goes, I didn't find it that hard to believe that Goren was able to talk the guards down, for a few reasons : 1 that the guards knew they had been caught and exposed, and regardless if they killed Goren, Logan and the nurse, they were either going to get killed in the fight with Goren, Logan and the nurse, get killed by a SWAT team in the ensuing standoff or arrested for killing 4 people total including 2 detectives in the line of duty and that would be an automatic death sentence for all of them while if they surrendered some of them might have a shot at parole 2 they knew the nurse who was Logan's girlfriend, and it would be harder to brutally kill a woman that they knew so well 3 Goren and Logan were detectives and some of the guards might've been more sympathetic to fellow law enforcement personnel and 4, a couple of the guards would never have done anything wrong had they not been roped into it by groupthink and pressure from the head guard, and Goren was able to get through to that. So I didn't find it very unrealistic. 

I have found other endings to CI to be harder to believe where Goren is interrogating someone with money who can afford the best lawyers and the lawyer just sits in the room and watches while Goren badgers their client into confessing and never puts a stop to Goren's antics or drags their client out of the room. 

[Maherjunkie]

You do have a point.  Maybe Logan reading a book is the unbelievable part.

[Xeliou66]

LOL, Logan never did seem like the literary type. 

I thought that bringing Logan on to CI was done very smoothly and very well, Logan was awesome in Stress Position and I loved seeing the classic, fiery Logan again. Another interesting thing about that episode was that the judge who Carver went to for the warrant was Judge Alan Ridenour who also appeared in a bunch of SVU episodes as well as Chinoiserie from CI season 2, and so Stress Position had characters from all 3 major L&O shows. I can't remember many episodes that had separate characters from 3 shows on the same episode in L&O history.

[WendyCR72]

On 6/13/2017 at 9:22 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I have found other endings to CI to be harder to believe where Goren is interrogating someone with money who can afford the best lawyers and the lawyer just sits in the room and watches while Goren badgers their client into confessing and never puts a stop to Goren's antics or drags their client out of the room. 

I do like this show, but I admit this always bugged me, too. At least have the perp agree to talk without a lawyer (dumb, but some do it), or have Goren maybe match wits with the attorney instead. He was a clever guy versed in what was legal or not. Would have been interesting to see how he worked within the system. Oh, well!

[WendyCR72]

So WE is showing "My Good Name" and a part of this episode harkens back a bit to "Wages of Love" from The Mothership. Not for any content but for sheer line repetition.

In "Wages of Love", it was Melanie Cullen's constant refrain of "We were married for 25 yeeeeeears!" Here, in "My Good Name", we have Frank Adair's repeated, "The mother of my children!"

Too bad coed prisons don't exist. Frank and Melanie could have been a match made in hell! (OK, so Melanie Cullen would already be out by the time of Frank's crime, but still.)

As I discussed prior, I do like how CI has some continuity, one of the instances having Frank Adair reappear in S5 while in prison in "On Fire".

[WendyCR72]

WE is in the midst of Season 4 in late night, and one episode listed in that block almost creeped me out: "Shibboleth", the one where the guy would tie the ankle of his victims while in their underwear and, if their leg dropped, they'd suffocate. I think it was one of the few that even seemed sort of graphic at the beginning since you heard the victim being killed during the 911 call.

The actor playing the perp there would return 5 seasons later, in "Broad Channel" in S9, totally unrecognizable to me except for the voice.

ETA: And, how ironic, the same actor is in the episode "Corruption" on the Mothership on WE that just ended. (The one that told Lennie he saved Lennie's career.)

[Xeliou66]

31 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

WE is in the midst of Season 4 in late night, and one episode listed in that block almost creeped me out: "Shibboleth", the one where the guy would tie the ankle of his victims while in their underwear and, if their leg dropped, they'd suffocate. I think it was one of the few that even seemed sort of graphic at the beginning since you heard the victim being killed during the 911 call.

The actor playing the perp there would return 5 seasons later, in "Broad Channel" in S9, totally unrecognizable to me except for the voice.

Yeah that was a creepy episode. You know Season 4 was arguably the darkest season of CI, so many chilling, creepy cases : Want, with the cannibal killer pouring hot water into women’s brains, Death Roe, the evil chef from that episode always gives me chills, raping his daughter and putting his son in law through the meat grinder, one of the worst criminals CI ever had, The Posthumous Collection, Magnificat, In the Dark ( the baby being stuck inside the woman was one of the most disturbing things I’ve heard of ), all of them incredibly dark and creepy. I loved season 4 but it was by far the season that had the most disturbing episodes. I have to say the darkness of the cases is one of thing that made CI unique, I thought that the show got too far away from that after René Balcer left, especially in 6 and 7, the final couple of years made a return to dark, complex cases. 

[WendyCR72]

Oh, "Silver Lining" with Wes the Silver Thief is on. Funny how David Harbour played such a nonviolent/somewhat harmless perp in this one but was such a scary nutjob in S8's "Family Values".

[WendyCR72]

"Sex Club" just ended. Did y'all know the actress playing the victim, the former "Honey" (a.k.a fake Playmate, with Peter Bogdanovich channeling Hugh Hefner), Catherine Hickland, was once married to David Hasselhoff? 'Tis true! (Ironically, her following husband was an actor [for any non-soap watching people here!] named Michael E. Knight, who was on All My Children for years as Tad Martin. Michael Knight was the name of the character played by...David Hasselhoff in Knight Rider! Funny how life works... Anyway, she is no longer with Knight, either.)

Just some random trivia.  :-)

[biakbiak]

On 4/26/2018 at 12:05 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Anyway, she is no longer with Knight, either.)

She’s now married to Todd Fisher, son of Eddie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds and brother to Carrie.

[WendyCR72]

On 6/12/2018 at 4:17 AM, biakbiak said:

She’s now married to Todd Fisher, son of Eddie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds and brother to Carrie.

Wow, that I didn't know!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Title says it all.

 

[peacheslatour]

Oh man, we got ripped off. She should  have had a spectacular final scene. 

[WendyCR72]

My name is WendyCR72, and I approve this thread title!

[Shadow Lass]

Watching Charge! and "Posthumous Collection." Waiting for Alex's portrait session, still not looking forward to Spencer's horrible sister's tale. Talk about characters whose rage you understand...

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Shadow Lass said:

Watching Charge! and "Posthumous Collection." Waiting for Alex's portrait session, still not looking forward to Spencer's horrible sister's tale. Talk about characters whose rage you understand...

I saw Posthumous Collection as well on Charge, Spencer’s family was one of the worst ever, his sister was such a fucking sociopathic witch, hell all of his family members were. The scene where Goren/Eames interview the sister in prison is pretty chilling.
Next up was Want with sick fuck John Tagman, and Goren feeling sympathy for that cannibal freak was Goren’s worst moment IMO. Why the fuck should Goren care whether or not Tagman received a death sentence? He tortured those women in god awful ways. It’s a good case but Goren’s sympathy for Tagman ruins a lot of it for me. 
Now on is Great Barrier with Nicole, where she should’ve been killed off at the end, but instead she miraculously escaped again, this is the point where the Nicole storyline officially went off the rails.

[Xeliou66]

Season 4 is on Charge this week 

Gone is an interesting episode, it’s complex but a good plot about the former chess grandmaster who had become paranoid and was trying to get money from his family - it was just coincidence that the woman had the travel brochure from the hotel he stayed at and that’s why he killed her, they had no connection and he had just descended into complete paranoia. Interesting plot and I liked how Goren/Eames got to the bottom of it and I liked their final confrontation with the killer.

Collective was next and I love the scene where Goren plays with the toy weapon in the toy shop, that was absolutely hilarious, one of my favorite Goren moments. The rest of the episode is strange, about the vampire club, the story about the con artist woman who caused the original killing by the cops was interesting, but then it became about her murder and the weird vampire obsessed people and it just didn’t click for me.

Tonight 4 good episodes will air on Charge - starts with Death Roe with monstrous chef Tommy - that’s a classic, and then Ex Stasis, Shibboleth and The Good Child - all strong episodes. Season 4 may be the best CI season. 

[peacheslatour]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 4 is on Charge this week 

Gone is an interesting episode, it’s complex but a good plot about the former chess grandmaster who had become paranoid and was trying to get money from his family - it was just coincidence that the woman had the travel brochure from the hotel he stayed at and that’s why he killed her, they had no connection and he had just descended into complete paranoia. Interesting plot and I liked how Goren/Eames got to the bottom of it and I liked their final confrontation with the killer.

Collective was next and I love the scene where Goren plays with the toy weapon in the toy shop, that was absolutely hilarious, one of my favorite Goren moments. The rest of the episode is strange, about the vampire club, the story about the con artist woman who caused the original killing by the cops was interesting, but then it became about her murder and the weird vampire obsessed people and it just didn’t click for me.

Tonight 4 good episodes will air on Charge - starts with Death Roe with monstrous chef Tommy - that’s a classic, and then Ex Stasis, Shibboleth and The Good Child - all strong episodes. Season 4 may be the best CI season. 

Season 4 is a great season but I think it's also the darkest. I won't ever watch Magnificat again. 

[Xeliou66]

49 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Season 4 is a great season but I think it's also the darkest. I won't ever watch Magnificat again. 

It is the darkest, creepiest and weirdest - for sure. We have Magnificat with the kids being blown up, Want with cannibal Tagman, Death Roe with Tommy putting his son in law through the meat grinder so he can keep raping his daughter, In the Dark with the “stone baby”, No Exit with the suicide pact, Stress Position with the off the books prisoners and so on. It’s an incredibly dark season but that’s one reason why I like it, sometimes the dark and disturbing cases are some of the most compelling.

Magnificat is certainly horrific and the scene where that sadistic scumbag husband makes his wife sleep in the dead kids room is chilling. I’ve said before how disappointed I was with Carver for refusing to prosecute the husband - he came off as soft and gun shy, the only time I would ever say that about Carver