Season One: Law & Order Goes Cerebral

[WendyCR72]

So, "The Third Horseman" was recently repeated and the guy playing Dennis...I have no idea of his name in real life but I'm pretty sure he was also on the Mothership. I hate when I cannot place someone.

 

As an aside, someone went off on VDO's Facebook page about the episode/Bobby's POV on it, etc. Yikes. But I guess that's inevitable for such an episode?

[Totale]

I just rewatched "Tuxedo Hill" (an excellent episode) and while I rarely notice such things it started to drive me batshit that the car crash victim's head wound kept disappearing and reappearing again.

[Maherjunkie]

Thanks for the tip Wendy, I'll head over there.

[WendyCR72]

I just rewatched "Tuxedo Hill" (an excellent episode) and while I rarely notice such things it started to drive me batshit that the car crash victim's head wound kept disappearing and reappearing again.

 

I never noticed it before. Now 'll be looking for it. :-)

[WendyCR72]

"The Third Horseman"...I get it was for effect and all, but even with the kettle, the poor kid would not have screamed when her father was shot? I'm sure that would have been heard even over the kettle.

[WendyCR72]

Dr. Emil Skoda is cool. Cool to see him cross over. (Along with Van Buren, Briscoe, Green, and Branch during its run.)

[WendyCR72]

I finally see what CI did in "Poison" in terms of the name of the poisoned medication, Excedrol.

 

Excedrin + Tylenol (the latter which this is likely based upon!) = Excedrol

 

Also ironic that the dead hubby of the perp was named Lenny and the great Lennie Briscoe (and Green) makes his cameo.

 

ETA: Now I'm not sure if they keep saying Excedrol or Nacedrol (as it sounded like some said). J. Smith Cameron plays sociopath pretty well, though.

[WendyCR72]

"Homo Homini Lupus"...the only episode in the franchise, I think, that didn't have a murder! Just dawned on me. (On WE.)

[WendyCR72]

Viola Davis, she really was so great and chilling in "Badge". Seemed like VDO came even more alive in scenes with her. No wonder he and KE raved about her back in the day.

Glad Davis went on to win an Emmy, even if accounts have How To Get Away With Murder as sort of ridiculous. (I don't watch, but that seems to be the feeling about that show that I've seen around the 'net.)

[Lizzing]

I recently caught Phantom again, and this time around it kind of irritated me how hard G&E went at Charlotte Fielding/Cookie Caspari.  Sure, they didn't know she really didn't do much illegal (aside from harboring her brother's stolen loot) and she would end up dead too, but it bugged.  Maybe it's just hangup from seeing Dr. Faye get such shitty treatment by Don Draper.  LOL

It is interesting (to me at least), that Charlotte's friend in the apartment building is played by the same actress who played the wife of another guy who faked a job, ran a second life as a "CIA operative", and also (successfully, as B&S were slower than G&E) killed his family over on SVU.  Another wrinkle that I find cool is that Goren tells the mother to make sure to say the names of her kids when talking to PsychoDad while he has them in the hotel room.  The mom was played by Brooke Smith, who was the kidnapped Senator's daughter in Silence of the Lambs; the Senator was given the same advice, i.e., to say her daughter's name in press coverage, so as to personalize her and hopefully connect with her captor.  That CAN'T have been a coincidence.

[WendyCR72]

10 hours ago, Lizzing said:

I recently caught Phantom again, and this time around it kind of irritated me how hard G&E went at Charlotte Fielding/Cookie Caspari.  Sure, they didn't know she really didn't do much illegal (aside from harboring her brother's stolen loot) and she would end up dead too, but it bugged. 

 

And, see, @Lizzing, I loved that. Hee. Maybe because Charlotte/Cookie just seemed so phony, I don't know. But I got a kick out of G/E's little game. Alex mocking, "She shoulda remembah'd!" always makes me grin. Alex was good with the snark!

As I had said elsewhere in this thread, the French adaption, Paris Enquetes Criminelles re-did this episode and also did this scene. But even if I couldn't understand a word (no subtitles - but you can still follow their episodes if you know the US versions as, aside from locale changes, it's basically the same), to me, it lacked the playful sarcasm of the original here. And it looked like VDO/KE were having fun with it.

All that said, I had no idea about the background of the actress playing the wife/mother in Phantom. Pretty cool connection with her past role. Love stuff like that, so thanks! (And Michael Emerson excelled as the douchebag con/husband/father in this one.) Good episode all around, IMO.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, S1 Bobby, such a slick devil you were.

[WendyCR72]

I realize this is a decade and a half old now, but the redhead in "The Extra Man", Haviland Morris, aged well. Hard to believe she was the popular blonde shallow high school chick that got with Farmer Ted (in a now-admittedly squicky way) in Sixteen Candles so many years ago.

I also recall her in a Mothership episode, forget which one, where she was accused of murder against a shrink who was working on an annulment case her soon-to-be-ex wanted. She had long red hair there.

And I sometimes wonder about the criminal convictions (TV, I know! LOL!). But "The Good Doctor" just ended, the one where the doctor killed his wife. At his trial when Carver was cross examining, she let out one "objection", but no more. Even the judge never told Carver to keep it on track. Of course, it led to Dr. Kelmer losing it in court, but...yeah. Hee. In real life, I'd think his conviction would be overturned. As Alex said, the guy wasn't convicted on the evidence (which was weak), and he could argue ineffective counsel.

Yes, I know I think about this way too much.  :-)

Happy 4th of July weekend, everyone!

[Maherjunkie]

She was also on the Kiss the Girls ep of the mothership with Ned who killed her college friend.  Lots of good Greevey/Logan exchanges.  She was also on Sex and the City.

[WendyCR72]

21 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

She was also on the Kiss the Girls ep of the mothership with Ned who killed her college friend.  Lots of good Greevey/Logan exchanges.  She was also on Sex and the City.

I think I remember the "Kiss The Girls" episode, but I don't recall her on SATC at all! Huh.  :-) So Ms. Morris has had her fair share of episodes on the franchise then!

(As an aside, on one of the extras on the Blu-Ray for the original 1984 Footloose, Kevin Bacon's screen test was on there. I guess the female lead (Lori Singer) was not cast yet, either, since a young Haviland Morris was playing Ariel (in a hideous '80s prom dress!) in that test.)

[Maherjunkie]

She was the bride who didn't seem very happy on the Turtle and the Hare episode.

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

She was the bride who didn't seem very happy on the Turtle and the Hare episode.

Ah, okay! Now it rings a bell. Thanks! A lot of her roles have her relationship with the guy du jour her character is with going belly up.  :-P

[Maherjunkie]

Maybe the nerd in 16 candles is her best match!

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Maybe the nerd in 16 candles is her best match!

Pretty sad it comes to that, but yeah. LOL!

[WendyCR72]

Becky the Hooker in "Smothered". I can never tell if Susan Misner was going for New Jersey - or Maine (when she says"I'm freezin' out here!", the "here" sounded like "he-yah"). Funny how she played a hooker and a nun. Talk about opposite spectrums there! (Not to mention the doomed wife to David Harbour's religious nut in S8.)

[WendyCR72]

And it looks like WE cut a scene with Bobby and his letter-forger friend. Dumb.

[WendyCR72]

No matter how many times I see "Badge", it disturbs me to no end, especially with the kids being smothered. (And Bobby wearing one of the victim's bloody shirts!)

And "Faith": It astounds me this must be based on a real case. How can one write a book if no one ever meets them?! But the nod to J.D. Salinger must be acknowledgement. (He was known as extremely reclusive, but as there was no self publishing in the "Catcher in the Rye" days, I assume he did, at least, have to meet with an editor!)

And on another note, when one store clerk said, "Isn't it romantic?" about the bracelet inscription to Erica from Doug Lafferty, I always love Alex's patently snarky response, "You don't want to know what I think."

[WendyCR72]

Just realized Bobby wore a leather jacket with his T-shirt and jeans in "Smothered". The only other time I ever remember him with a leather jacket was in "D.A.W." in S3.

Strange that he only wore it twice.

I guess Logan had the leather coat thing cornered once he joined.  :-)  As the Law & Order "Charged Up" quiz said, Logan's jacket was Noth's. I wonder if it was the same jacket from his Mothership years?

[Maherjunkie]

I always assumed so.

[WendyCR72]

16 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

I always assumed so.

That would make the jacket ancient! But if he took care of it, maybe I guess. Either way, I guess leather never goes out of style.  :-)  (I imagine it came in handy with NYC's ever-changing weather while filming.)

[WendyCR72]

Weird! "Homo Homini Lupis" is on USA. There was the whole bit of G/E talking to that loser, Lucas Coulter and Deakins telling G/E that the wife and kids were released. But this time, after Mrs. Coulter tries to play it off as nothing, there is a scene where G/E go to Maggie's room before they get her to break, which is odder still because they introduce themselves to her that latter time. But in this scene, Maggie was just lying in her bed, staring up at Bobby as he introduced himself as Detective Goren (Alex standing next to him) before the mother comes up and shows them out.

I have seen this enough and yet have never recalled that other time in Maggie's room...

[Maherjunkie]

Child, I still wear my concert t-shirts from the 80s.

 

I remember it because Alex says to Deakins that every bone in her body told her Maggie had been raped.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

I remember it because Alex says to Deakins that every bone in her body told her Maggie had been raped.

I remember the line but have no recollection of that scene. Huh. Is it too early to start losing what's left of my mind?  :-P

[Maherjunkie]

Speaking of which, wasn't WE supposed to have a marathon on today?

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, Maherjunkie said:

Speaking of which, wasn't WE supposed to have a marathon on today?

The Mothership was on as it usually is, ended at 2:00 a.m. and now CI is on 'til...5:00 a.m., as it usually is.  :-)  "Dead" is airing now, S2 premiere with Captain Hannah's evil doppelganger.  :-P

[Maherjunkie]

I meant this afternoon.  Assassin was listed at noon.

[WendyCR72]

7 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

I meant this afternoon.  Assassin was listed at noon.

Really? Thinking that was a mistake. WE's schedule can be wonky. Then again, maybe it's throwing shows around the schedule again...

[WendyCR72]

"Smothered" is on. And I still love the friends Goren used to have. I get why he was torn down - for drama - but between Lewis, the forger, and the child's rights advocate, Bobby really did have varied friends from all walks...

[Xeliou66]

Season one has lots of great episodes, I saw a couple of my favorites today on WE : The Good Doctor and the Third Horseman.

Good Doctor is a great episode despite being very straightforward, it shows a good investigation and a classic cat and mouse game between Goren and the perp. Some classic Goren scenes in that one, with him knocking over the coffee cup and his testimony against the doctor. Eames, Deakins and Carver got a lot as well, and I loved seeing Carver at work in court, another thing that made the episode stand out and something that we rarely saw. Dr Kelmer was a memorable villain as well, smug, controlling, unremorseful, and convinced he would get away scot-free. Very underrated CI but one of my favorites. 

Third Horseman was a classic as well, it was a very good handling of both a sensitive issue and an investigation. They didn't let the abortion issue overshadow the investigation but they didn't sweep it under the rug either, very good case and I thought all the characters came to life really well, from the victim to the old activist couple to the clinic staff. Arguably the best abortion episode in the L&O franchise. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Third Horseman was a classic as well, it was a very good handling of both a sensitive issue and an investigation. They didn't let the abortion issue overshadow the investigation but they didn't sweep it under the rug either, very good case and I thought all the characters came to life really well, from the victim to the old activist couple to the clinic staff. Arguably the best abortion episode in the L&O franchise. 

I agree with this, but - and it really had zip to do with the actual case - I loved a frazzled Alex asking Bobby to promise her a margarita when the case was over.

I also liked when Alex asked Bobby what he thought about abortion. Probably because this was so early in the partnership and helped to draw them out as people rather than only detectives, but without beating the audience over their heads.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I liked how it gave the characters more depth by seeing their abortion views but they didn't shove it down our throats. It was also interesting as Eames seemed to be very angry and upset by the circumstances of the case, she jumped the religious nut mom who helped Griscom and she also was angry with Carver I believe who seemed to hold anti choice views. Deakins didn't say anything about the issue at all, don't know where he stood.

[WendyCR72]

Oh, and as an aside: This is another thing I liked about the franchise. This example is CI, but I think it holds for the other "branches": The computer guru in "The Third Horseman", I'm pretty damned sure it was the same guy in S10 (!) in "Boots On The Ground". If not, he has one hell of a twin. I like that secondary characters pop up and with the same actor (or, again, a good lookalike!). Same holds true for Det. Jeffries [funny that SVU also had a Det. Jeffries - female, obviously], the guy that was in "Blind Spot" [who Goren threw his phone to to have him investigate it] and later appeared again in "Frame", and I think he, too, came back in S10.

Just made the show seem more "real", in a sense.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I like how they have recurring characters pop up throughout, not only on CI but on the entire L&O franchise. You have probably noticed how the same financial expert guy appears in several season one episodes and then later on another financial guy pops up a few times as well in both Deakins and Ross episodes, I remember he was in Privilege and also Dollhouse I think, and maybe one or 2 others. 

Also, the shows have lots of continuity with characters, both main and recurring. Van Buren, Briscoe, Green, Lewin and Branch all appeared on CI once, Olivet appeared in To the Bone, Skoda appeared in Crazy and in a deleted scene in Tomorrow, and Rodgers appeared lots of times. Also the defense attorney in Suite Sorrow has been on all of the L&O shows, even Trial by Jury. He played a judge in a few SVU episodes as well. 

I also like the references to the other characters as well even when they aren't seen, such as the references to Lewin and McCoy in Semi Professional, McCoy was referenced again in Lady's Man, Deakins talking about speaking to Van Buren in Stress Position, and Ross talking to Branch on the phone in Silencer.

The entire L&O franchise was terrific about providing little nuggets of continuity for the fans, for example on the mothership I remember an episode where Lewin said to McCoy "Maybe I should have Ron Carver second chair this one" and also on SVU Eames appeared twice in season 14 and they referenced Megan Wheeler in an SVU episode as well a couple of years ago. Also a minor female detective on CI named Campesi who appeared in some season 7 and 8 episodes went on to be a minor recurring detective on SVU and last year was one of the cops who was charged with manslaughter for shooting an unarmed black teen who was thought to be a rapist. L&O franchise always had great continuity.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I like how they have recurring characters pop up throughout, not only on CI but on the entire L&O franchise

As is well known, I give S9 a lot of grief. Maybe deservedly so, maybe not. But this discussion just highlights another reason I wasn't much of a fan: It seemed so disconnected from the rest of the series, "old" CI and the others. The recurring characters aren't seen at all, no mention of other characters. It was its own island.

As @wknt3 did rightfully point out, there seemed to be all new writers that brief season, so maybe they had no time to research - or they didn't care and just hoped "new" CI would be a draw on its own.

To connect this back to the topic, I do wish that Carver, who had been on from Day 1, got a dignified exit (not just some mention in "Tru Luv") and could have returned a bit in S10, considering the series went full circle, having it be just Goren/Eames as it had begun.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah season 9 just wasn't that good. The captain was incredibly dull and useless, and Stevens didn't have that much personality and seemed to be only cast for her looks. And some of the episodes were just awful, some were good, but a lot weren't. 

I agree about Carver, he was a great character who got neglected and should've gotten an actual exit and I wish both him and Deakins had returned for an episode in season 10 bringing CI full circle. I liked the final season and how it ended but I wish they had done that. 

[WendyCR72]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree about Carver, he was a great character who got neglected and should've gotten an actual exit and I wish both him and Deakins had returned for an episode in season 10 bringing CI full circle. I liked the final season and how it ended but I wish they had done that. 

Yeah, having both Deakins and Carver back would have been great. Maybe Carver would have needed the police due to a case (maybe family related; he did mention a wife and kids in passing) or Deakins could have returned to give insight into an old case or maybe - again - something to do with Frank Adair, who helped force him out. I know many liked Danny Ross, and he was okay I guess, but I far preferred Jimmy Deakins of the two captains who were on the longest.

[Xeliou66]

Danny Ross was an obnoxious douche, very arrogant and an ass to the detectives under his command, I didn't care at all when he got killed. Deakins was 100 times better than Ross, Ross was more interesting though than Callas, who was extremely flat and didn't add anything. I did like Captain Hannah, although it was weird to see that dude as the boss after playing creepy killers in both CI and the mothership. 

Deakins and Carver were excellent characters that didn't get enough screen time, and I wish they had brought Carver and Deakins back in the final season for an episode, where they could help out with an old case or have some personal tie such as Frank Adair. 

Did Carver ever mention having kids? I know Deakins did, but I only recall Carver mentioning his wife a couple of times. 

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Did Carver ever mention having kids? I know Deakins did, but I only recall Carver mentioning his wife a couple of times. 

Yes, he did! I don't recall the episode, sadly, but there was a line where he told G/E, "my kids lie, I send them to their rooms", so it was a brief one-and-done mention.

Too bad Carver couldn't have returned because of his kid(s) being in danger, kidnapped or whatever, due to his past work and maybe wanting G/E on the case since he knew them and knew they had a great record of getting the case closed/things done, etc.

[WendyCR72]

Seen it so many times, but I still love Bobby and Alex messing with Charlotte Fielding/Cookie Caspari in "Phantom". And it seems to be the first time as a team (it was S1, after all!) where they gelled and were on the same page...

[WendyCR72]

"Badge" is on. This one still chills me, at just how easily Viola Davis' character could kill a family like that, including two kids. And then to claim she did it for her own kids.

Still something how Viola Davis took her skills all the way to an Oscar!

[Xeliou66]

Badge is a great episode, terrific performance from Viola Davis. Terry Randolph was one of the most cold blooded, evil and memorable villains on CI, I hope she got the death penalty, so cold blooded and heartless and then claiming to do it for her kids. It was a classic game of cat and mouse between her and Goren, I liked Goren's dumb cop act complete with over the top accent. Also it was great to see Van Buren on CI. 

Badge would definitely be one of my top season 1 episodes. 

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, I noticed VDO really played up the stereotypical thick Brooklyn accent there. I got a kick out of that. The whole "frugal" exchange between Randolph and Goren was interesting, too.

I hope the mole helping out Randolph lost her job and faced charges, too.

[Xeliou66]

I've been watching season 1 episodes late at night on USA and WE, and I have to say that this show started really strong and didn't really have any growing pains or adjustments to make, and it had lots of great episodes that are rewatch able again and again. I saw Poison on USA last night and it is one of my favorite episodes, a classic ripped from the headlines episode with some classic Goren scenes, a twisted mass murderer and a great cat and mouse game, along with some great scenes with Deakins ( such as his line about taking the headache medicine and his irritation with the bosses ) Carver got some good scenes as well and I loved the crossover appearance by Lennie Briscoe and Ed Green, it's too bad that they didn't use more crossover characters on CI. A great episode. 

Season 1 has a lot of episodes that I consider favorites and only 1 that I consider a clunker ( The Insider ), which is extremely impressive for a first season of a show, most shows have to adjust and take time to find their footing, SVU for example took a whole year to become consistently solid. 

[WendyCR72]

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I've been watching season 1 episodes late at night on USA and WE, and I have to say that this show started really strong and didn't really have any growing pains or adjustments to make, and it had lots of great episodes that are rewatch able again and again. I saw Poison on USA last night and it is one of my favorite episodes, a classic ripped from the headlines episode with some classic Goren scenes, a twisted mass murderer and a great cat and mouse game, along with some great scenes with Deakins ( such as his line about taking the headache medicine and his irritation with the bosses ) Carver got some good scenes as well and I loved the crossover appearance by Lennie Briscoe and Ed Green, it's too bad that they didn't use more crossover characters on CI. A great episode. 

Season 1 has a lot of episodes that I consider favorites and only 1 that I consider a clunker ( The Insider ), which is extremely impressive for a first season of a show, most shows have to adjust and take time to find their footing, SVU for example took a whole year to become consistently solid. 

"Poison" did make me feel sorry for Scary Widow Pomeranski's mother, just as Alex said when she said the perp's mom reminded her of her grandma. I mean, I hated that she covered, but she really seemed horrified at the thought of what her daughter did - including killing her own husband.

And J. Smith-Cameron, who played said perp, was one of the actors who appeared on the show more than once. Except her second character was one of the few victims of Mark Ford Brady (played by the late great Roy Scheider) to survive his attack in "Endgame" from S6.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

 

And J. Smith-Cameron, who played said perp, was one of the actors who appeared on the show more than once. Except her second character was one of the few victims of Mark Ford Brady (played by the late great Roy Scheider) to survive his attack in "Endgame" from S6.

She's also appeared on the Mothership and SVU.