Season One: Law & Order Goes Cerebral

[WendyCR72]

I think you mean Yesterday.

 

I too love Phantom, but I think Cookie buys the farm.  Hard to believe the mother is the victim in Silence of the Lambs.

 

I thought I typed Yesterday and...nope. But I did mean that, yes. I'll edit.

[WendyCR72]

"Maledictus", the one with the beheaded Russian mob boss' daughter, is on MyNetwork. It occurred to me that this is another with Mommy issues that CI is so fond of: The perp wanting all of his mother's attention as a kid and having it backfire so badly in that he killed her. Pretty good one.

 

"Faith" is on afterwards, with Polly Draper, the one with the nonexistent sick Erica. What's scary is that was based on a real case, too.

 

But I think "Badge" is next week, and I always like seeing that one, as sick as it is.

[FormerMod-a1]

I remember Faith.  I was so frustrated with, was it the publisher?  someone, that no matter how much proof was presented still insisted that the sick girl was real.

[WendyCR72]

I remember Faith.  I was so frustrated with, was it the publisher?  someone, that no matter how much proof was presented still insisted that the sick girl was real.

 

Yeah, which made them either dumb as hell or complicit, since these people seemed to get a lot of mileage out of this fake sick kid. Money, interviews (by phone), books...

[Maherjunkie]

 

I thought I typed Yesterday and...nope. But I did mean that, yes. I'll edit.

What makes you think she lives?  Eames says she will "never" know what a worm her white knight turned out to be.  I too look forward to Badge.  Wasn't the phony child voice a giveaway in "Faith"?

[WendyCR72]

What makes you think she lives?  Eames says she will "never" know what a worm her white knight turned out to be.  I too look forward to Badge.  Wasn't the phony child voice a giveaway in "Faith"?

 

Well, the doctor did say that Cookie/Charlotte was lucky to be alive and that she could be in the coma indefinitely. So she could still "live" yet never know about Gerry, even if the quality of life would be almost nil.

 

Polly Draper's character on "Faith" was so freaking DUMB, killing a guy because he refused to believe in the Erica fantasy as she did. Her "faith" brought her to psycho territory. (And, okay, because maybe the guy was going to expose crap. But she should have sucked it up and just accepted she got played instead of hanging on blindly.)

[WendyCR72]

Well, this sucks! I don't know if it's because it was a particularly violent episode in terms of the deaths, but MyNetwork is skipping "Badge" tonight per the TV Guide listings.  :-(  I love Viola Davis in it.

 

Tonight is "Tuxedo Hill", the last of S1 and "Dead", S2 premiere with Harry Rowan, family man, and serial killer.

[Eolivet]

Rewatched "Tuxedo Hill" and it's still very impressive. Maybe the only Law & Order episode ever that turned on wordplay ("buying a collar").

 

I also liked how they styled Karen Milner, Jack Crawley's fiancee. The sleeveless tops were very distinctive,and never too low-cut or short, plus the pearls and her hair short and professional. It was just a good shortcut visual because it was exactly how her character was: "business sexy." Loved how she turned on him at the end.

 

And poor Carver "I have to go call my broker." LOL.

[WendyCR72]

Rewatched "Tuxedo Hill" and it's still very impressive. Maybe the only Law & Order episode ever that turned on wordplay ("buying a collar").

 

I also liked how they styled Karen Milner, Jack Crawley's fiancee. The sleeveless tops were very distinctive,and never too low-cut or short, plus the pearls and her hair short and professional. It was just a good shortcut visual because it was exactly how her character was: "business sexy." Loved how she turned on him at the end.

 

And poor Carver "I have to go call my broker." LOL.

 

I liked Bobby going off on Crawley at the end about the lives he ruined and how he didn't deserve more than anyone else, or words to the effect. As a former English major, I also liked the symbolism of Crawley literally backing into a corner before Bobby erupted.

 

And the broker stuff...yeah, that was just something Carver would say! LOL.

[WendyCR72]

Funny. Someone in the Daredevil forum said that Fisk would be Bobby Goren had he gone very dark. They both do have mommy and daddy issues...

 

But Bobby had more hair.  :-)  But it's funny, especially since CI did address Bobby's path not taken by way of Jo Gage. Considering Bobby's bio-dad, I could see Dark Bobby sort of like Fisk. Albeit maybe with less homicidal tendencies... Then again...

[WendyCR72]

One thing I noticed about S1 at least very early on: It did show Carver either with a jury ("Poison", again down the line in S4's "No Exit") or in the courtroom ("The Good Doctor"). Don't know why it trickled away because it rounded out the crimes, a bit. I think CI was the only one of the three main spinoffs that seemed to shy away from the court stuff even before CV left. It's no wonder why he did with less to do but stand around and argue with G/E or spout some law precedents.

 

"Poison" aired again recently, reminding me of that jury who indicted the perp's mother. Complete with waiting for the verdict in the courthouse. And the noise with that light going on over the door when the decision was rendered. I thought it was cool, but I am a geek.

 

Makes me wonder if TPTB didn't want to focus there or if the one and dones brought in didn't make enough of an impression to try.

[Eolivet]

Don't know why it trickled away because it rounded out the crimes, a bit. I think CI was the only one of the three main spinoffs that seemed to shy away from the court stuff even before CV left.

 

I wonder if it was set availability, Wendy -- that they thought when CI premiered, they would have time enough to give everyone a turn with the courtroom set and they just...didn't (delayed production on the Mothership, etc. -- they used those courtroom sets a lot)

 

Did SVU ever have a courtroom element to it? (I've never watched that show because I never had the stomach for those crimes). That might shed a little more light on if it was just a CI direction thing or an "Everyone must defer to the Mothership" thing.

 

ETA: Re: "Phantom"...I don't think it was unrealistic that he didn't kill his children. Eames was absolutely correct in calling him a "coward." The fact that he just drugged them and didn't kill them -- while convenient to the plot -- made sense to me. It's one thing to plan a murder, it's another to execute it. I don't remember if the show characterized Michael Emerson's character as a family annihilator, but he killed multiple people to protect his family -- not to destroy it. He only went to destroy it (IIRC) once he was cornered. I like to think it would've taken a lot for him to actually follow through with it. He also "only" started picking off his family members and others when they threatened the life he'd created for his immediate family. (It's been ages since I saw the ep, because it bothers me to rewatch, though).

 

Contrast that to the slime from season 8's "Family Values" who started picking off family members because his daughter showed cleavage in a play (a.k.a. he was batcrap crazy) and actually followed through with killing most of his immediate family. But had he not been caught, I think his daughter would've been raped and murdered. :shudders:

Edited May 31, 2015 by Eolivet

[WendyCR72]

Eolivet, I only really watched the first few seasons of SVU, but it did seem to use courtroom scenes. Alex Cabot, seemed to spend enough time there as she went after the perps. I think it's still a part of things with the current ADA, Rafael Barba (played by Raul Esparza, who coincidentally played the creepy disgraced ADA Kevin Mulrooney in "Lady's Man" in S8 of CI).

As for "Phantom", don't forget Michael Emerson's character also was found to have killed his father-in-law, so I think he could have decided to kill other family members.

[rujasu]

Yeah, SVU has always had an ADA (outside of S1 where they would borrow Mothership's ADA).  The courtroom has always been a significant part of SVU, not 50% of the show as it was in Mothership, but definitely moreso than in CI.

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, SVU has always had an ADA (outside of S1 where they would borrow Mothership's ADA).  The courtroom has always been a significant part of SVU, not 50% of the show as it was in Mothership, but definitely moreso than in CI.

 

Which is why I'm sort of surprised CI cast an ADA with Carver at all since he very rarely got courtroom scenes (aside from "The Good Doctor" in S1, "The Extra Man" in S1, as well as waiting for an indictment in "Poison" in S1, "No Exit" with the grand jury scene in S4 and, finally, "In The Wee Small Hours" in S5).

 

As you see, most happened in S1. Carver seemed to be there just as an antagonist (not enough evidence, blah! blah!) to Goren, Eames, and Deakins. Funny, though, how in either S7 or S8, forget which, there was an ADA that looked like him. But after Carver left, the "Order" angle was practically gone.

[Maherjunkie]

 

As for "Phantom", don't forget Michael Emerson's character also was found to have killed his father-in-law, so I think he could have decided to kill other family members.

What part of the show was this?

[WendyCR72]

What part of the show was this?

 

G/E were discussing Emerson's character's (forget the guy's name) past when talking to Deakins and how he never even finished his exams or such in school and the subject of him being the only one with his father-in-law when he died after he had a "fall", and how he later testified to such at his FIL's inquest. And I think his wife mentioned he supposedly helped her family with their finances as he did his own parents (remember, it was the guy's father wanting to take a cruise with his mom that set this idiot off to kidnap his kids). So maybe it wasn't proven, per se, but the implication made was strong enough to believe he did kill his FIL.

 

Add to all of this that G/E did say there were two shells in that shotgun "one for each child", and I do think he would have killed his kids had Bobby not shown up. If he could kill the brother of his girlfriend and try to kill her and could do in family, I think he had no boundaries save for saving his own little house of cards, and if he had to kill his kids, so be it.

[Eolivet]

Oh, I definitely believe he killed his FIL. I don't know -- maybe I'm parsing words here but "immediate family" is different than "in-laws." He had no problem killing people who wanted their money (and thus threatened his house of cards -- good phrase!), but he'd killed all those people ostensibly to protect his wife and kids (and thus, himself). Kidnapping his kids seemed more for leverage than anything else. Again, just to behavior pattern: those kids worshipped the ground he walked on, and I do think it was easier to plan their murders than to execute them. Maybe I give Emerson too much credit, since he's a really good actor, but despite the planning, I did wonder if he'd actually follow through with it.

 

Long story short: I feel like it was easy to kill those outside his immediate family, including his in-laws. But I do think that line became a lot more difficult to cross when it came to his kids, and to me, Emerson reflected that in his performance.

[WendyCR72]

Oh, I don't deny Michael Emerson played "psychotic family man" very well. He did. I guess I just took those two bullets in the shotgun at the end at face value. I mean, if he debated, I guess G/E could have found unused bullets WITH the gun, but knowing the gun was already loaded with them and he drugged the kids beforehand first...

 

In any case, the French version of CI, Paris Enquetes Criminelles, redid this one, and I could still basically follow it even not understanding a lick of French since the construct was virtually identical. And I do think the original, with the dark hotel room was a lot more effective than the bright sunny room the French version used. (Even if Vincent Perez looked like he learned how to mimic VDO to a T. Eerie.) As an aside, as I mentioned elsewhere in this forum, the episode even redid the "toying with Cookie" (or whatever the French version of her was named), and maybe it had to do with not understanding the language, but even the tone of Revel [VP's character's last name] and his partner didn't have the sarcastic biting playfulness the original had, so I thought it was kind of flat. May be different if I understood it more.  :-)

 

So, in that regard, I do appreciate all of the actors in this one.

[WendyCR72]

So USA is alternating now between S1 some nights and S5 in others. Well, for all of the times I have seen "The Good Doctor", I never noticed one glaring error until this time.

 

The initial investigation into Valerie's disappearance took place in January, obviously cold and wintry in New York. Which is fine. However [and likely because TPTB wanted some realism], the courtroom/trial stuff took place in late April, and the verdict was rendered on April 30th. With that said, as Goren, Eames, and Carver exit the courthouse discussing the verdict, they are in winter gear and Goren is putting on gloves. Oops! Should have done that little chat indoors to pretend it was April!

 

(I know this isn't S1, but since I mentioned USA was alternating, I'll just say Brad Renfro in "Watch" was uber creepy. The destructive tendencies sadly seemed to be life imitating art imitating life, considering his early demise.)

[Donny Ketchum]

(I know this isn't S1, but since I mentioned USA was alternating, I'll just say Brad Renfro in "Watch" was uber creepy. The destructive tendencies sadly seemed to be life imitating art imitating life, considering his early demise.)

What?  He's dead, too?

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, overdose from years ago.

[WendyCR72]

What?  He's dead, too?

 

 

Yep, and just when he was really starting to make his mark in films, or so I've read. He died, as Maherjunkie said, of an overdose all the way back in January 2008.

[WendyCR72]

Was I the only one who didn't know that Ritchie Coster, who played Simon Matich in "Homo Homini Lupus" was English-borne? He did a hell of a job with the character, as awful as he was.

 

(Recently looked in on the French version again, and the original is still miles better, IMO.)

 

I still get disgusted with the father, Lucas Colter. I'd like to think the wife divorced his ass and his kids never spoke to him again. His father was cold to him, but he wasn't wrong that his son was weak.

[WendyCR72]

So, got WE on (since power came back, long story) and I still don't get why Trudy's mother in "Poison" didn't turn her bad seed in. Yes, it's her daughter, but she knows or strongly suspects her daughter is evil...and would sacrifice her own mother just to get money to sell baby clothes.

 

I'd turn her in in a heartbeat.

 

Still get a kick out of watching Eames' hair length changing in each S1 episode, as someone else once brought up. I'd love to know the order of taping, but we'll never know, I guess.

[Spartan Girl]

So, got WE on (since power came back, long story) and I still don't get why Trudy's mother in "Poison" didn't turn her bad seed in. Yes, it's her daughter, but she knows or strongly suspects her daughter is evil...and would sacrifice her own mother just to get money to sell baby clothes.

 

I'd turn her in in a heartbeat.

The mother seemed like a ninny that was in complete denial. Geez, just when I thought this franchise had covered every single kind of scumbag imaginable, seven innocent people die so some bitch queen can start her own business.

[WendyCR72]

The mother seemed like a ninny that was in complete denial. Geez, just when I thought this franchise had covered every single kind of scumbag imaginable, seven innocent people die so some bitch queen can start her own business.

 

And one of them her own husband. Yikes. How funny his name was Lenny, when in the very episode, we got that Briscoe/Green cameo.  :-) And at least Carver got some mild court action in this one, too.

[Spartan Girl]

Am I the only one that didn't feel sorry for the wife in "The Pardoner's Tale"? Her husband was a complete and utter scumbag and she was still willing to stand by him. So I didn't feel that bad that Carver basically blackmailed her into helping the police catch him. When she said she "couldn't care" that her husband had two innocent people killed, I wanted to slap her. And when she called the police bastards, I just thought, "Yeah, takes one to know one, lady."

I only felt sorry for the kids. I like to imagine that she somehow lost custody of them.

[Maherjunkie]

He wasn't even dishonest.  He caught her on a technicality.  G and E were crazy in that ep to me.

[WendyCR72]

Am I the only one that didn't feel sorry for the wife in "The Pardoner's Tale"? Her husband was a complete and utter scumbag and she was still willing to stand by him. So I didn't feel that bad that Carver basically blackmailed her into helping the police catch him. When she said she "couldn't care" that her husband had two innocent people killed, I wanted to slap her. And when she called the police bastards, I just thought, "Yeah, takes one to know one, lady."

I only felt sorry for the kids. I like to imagine that she somehow lost custody of them.

 

Yep. All of this. I also recognize the actress as Meredith Grey's doctor mom on Grey's Anatomy who got Alzheimer's. (I only watched the first two seasons of that.) And that character was more of an outright bitch. But I think Stephanie Uffland on CI was worse as she tried hiding behind being such a "good person" while, as you say, @Spartan Girl, her husband was a true scumbag murderer.

 

Side note: Don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but the actress playing Stephanie Uffland, Kate Burton, is the daughter of Richard Burton.

 

On another note, I always liked this episode, "The Good Doctor", if just to see Goren and Carver wipe the absolute smug off of the doc's face. He was a complete arrogant SOB. Although Alex was right about one thing: The guy got convicted because no one liked him, not because of the evidence, which was, IMO, weak in terms of proof.

 

Still like the blooper of the court stuff in April as Goren, Eames, and Carver exit in winter gear from the courthouse. (Oh well, at least the investigation dates beforehand matched, in January.)

[Eolivet]

WE has a really weird schedule for reruns -- they reran a bunch of S1 episodes yesterday and then reran three of those again today.

 

I was curious to see "The Third Horseman" again, as I was wondering how much of the rhetoric from 2002 would be applicable today. One thing I was struck by, and I think often doesn't get discussed in terms of extremists in general, is that I believe there's always a personal motive behind someone's actions. People generally don't do terrible things for a grand abstract concept of "this is what I believe," people do terrible things when there are stakes involved. Griscom was not (really) a religious zealot, he was a spurned ex-lover, using extremism as a guise for the anger he felt at his personal situation.

 

I appreciated the way the show dissected the motivations behind extremists in this episode. It hit upon one of my personal pet peeves, which is people using religion -- something I think is good and pure -- as an excuse to justify terrible actions against other people. I feel that extremism perverts religion when people use it for their own personal agendas, and I think the ep did a great job of showing that.

[WendyCR72]

WE has a really weird schedule for reruns -- they reran a bunch of S1 episodes yesterday and then reran three of those again today.

I'm sort of understanding the schedule on WE now. The first three seem to be the "recap from yesterday" episodes, then the next episode/episodes (depending on how many air - T and W air until 6 p.m.; M, TH, and F until 4) is/are not repeats from the other day, and the cycle begins anew the next day.

And I agree about your observations about "The Third Horseman", @Eolivet. Of course, there was the requisite religious rhetoric, but I liked that a lot of it for Dennis came down to his girlfriend aborting his own baby. And then there was the byplay of G/E discussing beliefs with Carver getting a crumb. It was a compelling episode.

The French CI redid this one, as well. But I think this one (language issues aside) was still more dramatically sound.

And now "Crazy" is on. Stephanie Seymour was pretty (probably why Axl Rose went for her!), but she isn't much of an actress, was she? Still, Michael Gross plays a great sleaze and played cold well. (As he also played remote well as John Carter's father on ER years ago...) So far removed from Stephen Keaton on Family Ties.

But this one still makes me nuts for the mom skating with the accusation of her ex molesting their daughter. She basically got the ex killed. Sure, Dr. Webb wasn't really avenging Sophie, but that gave his mind the "in" to impress Sara and get her to love him. And hey, VDO got to do magic with the little girl, so... :-)

Speaking of Michael Gross, didn't he also play crazy or evil on SVU? I thought he did. I guess he REALLY wanted out of the good guy mold. Sort of like VDO is doing with his roles now.

[Eolivet]

It's interesting that, as noted in the tropes thread, this show did a lot about middle-aged men trying to impress their much younger girlfriends -- in a way that really made the men look bad and showed the women in a positive light. Even independent of their age, women being grateful for something men have done and rewarding them for it is a tried and true trope. But I don't remember the show doing a lot of that.

 

I feel like they had some really positive messages about "women don't owe sex because a guy does something for them." That's a message that is preached a lot, but I feel very seldom shown in practice on TV: where very often, women are grateful to men and will give them sex for being nice people. But I can think of at least two eps (along with Shandeh from season 2) where the women were like "I don't owe you anything" and the narrative was on their side. So...yay for subversive feminism in 2002!

 

This episode also mocks that idea brilliantly, courtesy of a brilliant VDO line delivery: "Kill the wolf at the door, throw the body at her feet and the gates of paradise will open wide!"

[Spartan Girl]

Goren is at his best with children :)

[WendyCR72]

Goren is at his best with children :)

Yeah, he was. Alex was good with them, too. Bobby was the more surprising to me there since - from inference of the ten seasons - he seemed to have a shitty childhood, so it was something that he could handle kids as well as he did!

Maybe a part of him was a stunted kid. After all, we saw how much he enjoyed not only magic but there was that great scene with the toy gun in the 4th season.

[WendyCR72]

And WE used the unedited version of Bobby reading to Arnie. The "pissed himself" line was intact, unlike on ION. How weird.

[Eolivet]

"Homo Homini Lupus" was on again today, and I renew my objection to Lucas Colter. I'd forgotten that he both embezzled from his company and spent it on frivolous things like Italian vacations and Porsches, then came whining to Daddy when the loan came due. It is my head canon that his wife divorced his sniveling behind, and McCoy got ahold of his case and was able to charge him with like...accessory to rape or something, and he's in prison where he belongs. Does he win the award for Least Sympathetic "Victim" ever? Argh.

 

"Semi-Professional" is on now, and I think there was a semi-shout out to the Mothership. One of the people Sabatelli hates (in Carver's litany of names) is "McCoy." Hee!

[Spartan Girl]

"Homo Homini Lupus" was on again today, and I renew my objection to Lucas Colter. I'd forgotten that he both embezzled from his company and spent it on frivolous things like Italian vacations and Porsches, then came whining to Daddy when the loan came due. It is my head canon that his wife divorced his sniveling behind, and McCoy got ahold of his case and was able to charge him with like...accessory to rape or something, and he's in prison where he belongs. Does he win the award for Least Sympathetic "Victim" ever? Argh!

Hmmm, he definitely would be a contender, right between the father in "Magnificat" and the Idiot Ninny Margie in "Pas de deux"....but I digress...

[WendyCR72]

and the Idiot Ninny Margie in "Pas de deux"

 

Oh, God...Margie. I cannot believe this show claimed she was a chemistry teacher when a speck of dust seemed to have more brain cells than she did.

 

But to get back to S1, yeah, Lucas Colter was a very special breed of asshole, and like all of you, I daydream that his wife cleaned him out, his kids cut him off, and his snivelling criminal ass is in prison. Lucas' father may have been a bastard, but he pegged his tool son just right.

[WendyCR72]

Lucas Colter's special brand of asshole is on again on ION. When he tries to stop G/E, I wish his wife would've just clocked him instead of being so meek. Then again, she went through hell because of his ass, too.

[cooksdelight]

"Kenny! Kennyyyyyyy! What have you done!!!"

I love "Maledictus."

[WendyCR72]

So Viola Davis won an Emmy. Good for her! I'll always remember her cold-as-ice character in "Badge", where she was also excellent.

[cooksdelight]

Another bad mother.

[WendyCR72]

Another bad mother.

 

Especially when you consider Terry Randolph actually killed two kids!

[Eolivet]

I'd like to think that the most memorable characters live independently of their portrayers, so there is a universe where Terry Randolph is in jail, somehow watching Viola Davis win an Emmy, and whispering to herself "My girls are gonna do that someday."

 

Congratulations to an extremely talented actor.

[WendyCR72]

I'd like to think that the most memorable characters live independently of their portrayers, so there is a universe where Terry Randolph is in jail, somehow watching Viola Davis win an Emmy, and whispering to herself "My girls are gonna do that someday."

 

Congratulations to an extremely talented actor.

 

Quite the image there, @Eolivet. I like how meta it all is!

[cooksdelight]

Season one begins with "One" tomorrow morning on ION at 9 eastern.

[Maherjunkie]

I'd like an episode where her daughter visits her in jail, wearing LIPSTICK.

[WendyCR72]

Season one begins with "One" tomorrow morning on ION at 9 eastern.

 

And then is back on Fridays the following week, 10/2, from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. ION can't seem to make up its mind regarding the schedule. But for this week, it is on from 9 a.m. to 3 a.m. (Thursday/Friday) with all 3 L&O shows airing on Saturday, the 26th, the CI portion from 9 a.m. to 4 or 5 p.m., forget which.

 

Also, if you get MyNetwork - and I am not sure if this is just local [so it may not be on in your area, not sure]. - CI is being taken off prime time Tuesdays as of this coming Tuesday. But since this past Monday (the 21st), MyNetwork is also airing S1 CI, started at the pilot, every day at 1:00 p.m. ET. (So if I don't care for the WE 1:00 p.m. episode if I'm around to see it, I just watch the early stuff.)

[WendyCR72]

So "Jones" was on ION in the 1:00 p.m. hour. That one will never get old to me. Poor Eames. She really looked thrilled when Goren put her on the spot to be bait. Hee.