S04.E04: Was She Ever Good at Her Job?

[possibilities]

13 hours ago, Milaxx said:

We've now seen 2 crimes scenes; AK's hotel room and the offices at Caplan & Gold where Oliver is a witnesses to whatever happened. Since we meet Laurel in a hospital/medical facility of some sort, we don't know where she was found. There is blood in both places. my guess is whatever Oliver witnessed occurred at C & G

I agree with this. I just think the assumption that what happened to Laurel happened at Anna's place is suspect. She's as likely to have been at C&G (more likely, actually) as to have been at Anna's apartment building.

[Milaxx]

The more I rewatch, the more I call BS on Jeff saying Connor is faking it. This is a man who clearly does not know who is son is  now.  I'm not sure he really knows who Connor is. Rather he appears to have some idealized version of who Connor is/should be. By Connor's own admission they aren't close and haven't been since Connor was 12. Connor's mother appears to have had primary or at least physical custody & then Connor spent his formative years in boarding school. The Connor Jeff knows may be a composite idea of regrets that Jeff had of the life he could have lead as an out and proud 20something, hightlights of the conquest that Connor may have told him during visits & phone calls, and the memory of the bold 12 year old boy who came out to his family & dared them not to love him. The Connor we see today has had an entirely new set of life experiences that his father has no knowledge of. If he's mature enough to not leap impulsively into a marriage and be able to articulate to his partner why now is not the time to get married, I think he's ready for a committed relationship. Best I can think is the writers wanted to sow seeds of doubt/conflict into Coliver this season and this Jeff subplot was what they came up with.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by Milaxx

[truthaboutluv]

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 I do like them together, but they have some really serious issues to work on. Honestly, if thats why Connors dad didn't want him to date Oliver, I would understand that. Why doesn't he want them together? He hates that Connor has some stability?

I actually got what Connor's dad was saying and I do think it is consistent with what we've seen of the relationship since the show started. If we remember, as much as Connor liked Oliver well enough, the first time he reached out to him for something more was when the guy he slept with to help expose that the guy was in cahoots against his boss, killed himself. That was the first thing that emotionally rattled him. Then later, he reached out to Oliver and literally began clinging to him and the relationship, after Sam's murder.

I liked that they had his dad reference him being different even if he doesn't know why exactly because I think it was to show that despite Connor's comments about their not being close and having no relationship, his dad does on some level know him. And he knows him enough to realize the person Connor was and always had been is not who he is right now. Admittedly I may be biased in that I've admitted that last season soured me on Oliver and that relationship and truthfully I really don't care about any romantic relationship on the show. But that said, I do think Connor's dad was making a lot of sense, albeit maybe his approach wasn't the best. 

 

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Instead of Connor and Oliver being their son and his boyfriend, they were just younger gay male buddies.

That rang true for me for the fact that Connor and his father are admittedly not close. The whole thing had an air of overcompensation and trying too hard in my opinion. He wants to forge some kind of connection, any connection with his son so he figured being the "friend' might work. 

 

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And so why does Annalise feel the need to verbally assault Michaela about wanting, needing or searching for a mother figure?  Is that a horrible thing?  Why is it grounds to berate someone?  To me, that belief may be reasonable or even justified, but, it would likely cause me to feel empathy, compassion and understanding, not hostility and disdain.  I don't get it. 

YMMV but I didn't think Annalise verbally assaulted Michaela when telling her she was seeking a mother figure. Michaela was the one who came running, having a mini-tantrum at the possibility of Annalise working at the firm. Annalise just calmly pointed out to her that she's doing the same thing with Tegan that she did with her. And it was a dose of reality Michaela probably needed to her since considering how things went with Annalise, you'd think she'd steer clear of that. And I say that as someone who likes Tegan. 

 

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 I love your entire post.  I for one am tired of Laurel and Connor “friendships” with Michaela centering on their using her and treating her like crap, but hey, it’s okay because they’re her “friends.

When has Connor used and treated Michaela like crap in their friendship? Or is this more of the Connor is somehow the worse character on a show filled with murderers? 

Meanwhile, I continue to have zero interest in Laurel and be completely grossed out by her and Frank. I would like to say I'm surprised by Bonnie's seeming seething resentment and vendetta against Annalise but we've gotten plenty of indications throughout the seasons that those two have a very fucked relationship that is equal parts obsessive love and loyalty on Bonnie's part mixed with buried resentment and anger. I also continue to not care about Asher and don't for a second buy his and Michaela's relationship. I cannot off the top of my head think of a show where I'd be glad for a reset on every romantic relationship. And yes, why is Nate still on this show?

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

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 I do like them together, but they have some really serious issues to work on. Honestly, if thats why Connors dad didn't want him to date Oliver, I would understand that. Why doesn't he want them together? He hates that Connor has some stability?

I actually got what Connor's dad was saying and I do think it is consistent with what we've seen of the relationship since the show started. If we remember, as much as Connor liked Oliver well enough, the first time he reached out to him for something more was when the guy he slept with to help expose that the guy was in cahoots against his boss, killed himself. That was the first thing that emotionally rattled him. Then later, he reached out to Oliver and literally began clinging to him and the relationship, after Sam's murder.

I liked that they had his dad reference him being different even if he doesn't know why exactly because I think it was to show that despite Connor's comments about their not being close and having no relationship, his dad does on some level know him. And he knows him enough to realize the person Connor was and always had been is not who he is right now. Admittedly I may be biased in that I've admitted that last season soured me on Oliver and that relationship and truthfully I really don't care about any romantic relationship on the show. But that said, I do think Connor's dad was making a lot of sense, albeit maybe his approach wasn't the best. 

What serious issues are Connor and Oliver having?  I'm not seeing any that they aren't working through and communicating about. The relationship started on a lie. Then Connor clung to Oliver as a response to the murders and stuff. The whole, "but Oliver deleted Connor's Standford acceptance" feels  a chicken/egg argument to me, because if Oliver knew Connor was trying too get away from the Keating murder squad, would he have still done that? Would he have said, hell, yeah let's go!" We'll never know because Connor was continuing to build lie up on lie.  Last season we saw them break up over those lies (both Connor's and Oliver's), reconcile, break up once again an finally deal with them as the truth came out. They decided to reconcile and deal with those issues. Oliver impulsively proposed to Connor.  It was a bad idea, and Connor saw it as a knee jerk reaction to Connor being kidnapped. They actually communicated and talked about this. More than once.  For now marriage is someday but not now. That seems reasonable

I'm not convinced Jeff(Connor's dad) knows the man Connor is today. Even besides not knowing about the murders, in Connors own words, they are not close.  Connor came out at 12. At the very east he spent his teen years at boarding school. Connor appears to spend his holiday's at his mother. Even if they did the typical every other holiday deal, that's not much time spent together. After boarding school there was college and maybe they communicated with the occasional visit and phone call. Perhaps Connor the playboy regaled his dad with tales about his sexual conquest.  I don't think Connor's dad knows him as well as he thinks he does. He sounds like he has more of an idealized image of him.  I think Jeff regrets spending his 20's in closet. Jeff also spent what, 2 days with Connor & Oliver? I mean, they came down, found out he wasn't on drugs or partying and then shot up to NYC for 5 days? Nah, he doesn't get to make a snap judgement like that to a person he no longer knows. Biology does not make a person an expert. 

 

On a more analytical view, this is a show about people with daddy/parent issues.  AK has major issues with her dad abandoning them.  Wes never knew his dad whether it was Mahooney senior or junior., Frank tried to kill his dad and lives with the guilt of him being in a wheelchair for life. Bonnie's dad was a pedophile. Laurel's is in her own words "a bad man" who left her mother, put his business before his own child by 1)refusing to pay her ransom and 2) making her recant her statement & purger herself regarding said kidnapping. Michaela was adopted by and appears to have a contentious relationship her both her parents.  Asher and his dad  were cordial, but his dad covered up a rape for him and when he got discovered, killed himself. His mother cut him off.   

I think the point of this is to have yet another hurdle in the Coliver relationship. That's fine, it's what brings the drama to the show. Perfectly happy couples on tv are boring. 

[truthaboutluv]

Just now, Milaxx said:

What serious issues are Connor and Oliver having?

YMMV, it's not about their having "serious issues" per se. His dad even made sure to verbalize that he liked Oliver and thinks he's a great guy. And on the surface, he and Connor do seem happy and great for each other. But what his father was verbalizing is that it feels like a facade on Connor's part. That the person he is right now is not who he is or was and that who he really is, Oliver is not the guy for him. Now if we want to be technical, of course it's to create drama for the couple because it is a television show. Just like Oliver's dickish reasons and behavior last season in breaking up with Connor. I am just saying that while others may not agree, I personally do think on some level it makes sense.

The fact is not even so much that Connor and Oliver started on a lie but that they started off from Connor's being in a very emotionally vulnerable and desperate place. For a long time Oliver was a symbol of the seemingly one good and honest thing in his life. Like would Connor and Oliver really have even gotten back together after Oliver found out about the guy Connor slept with, who killed himself, if Connor hadn't inadvertently been involved in Sam's murder? Yes, I know Connor made a gesture and attempt to see him when the male friend's of Oliver's opened the door but he didn't seem to make much effort after that. Hell, would Connor have even gone back to Oliver if the guy hadn't killed himself because again, it was the aftermath of that that prompted his desire to make things official with Oliver.

And that I feel is ultimately the point of what his dad was saying, albeit maybe it wasn't delivered perfectly. That something happened to Connor, something that affected him to his core and it made him gravitate to Oliver because it made sense and felt right at the time. But is that really the person for him? 

Edited October 26, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Hazel55]

On 10/19/2017 at 10:11 PM, Dee said:

Laurel and Frank are SO gross.

Ugh, oh yes. 

For reasons I can't fully articulate, the "relationship" between these two has always grossed me out, even before the infidelity angle came along.  In addition to the fact that there was initially a great power imbalance between the two (with Laurel as Analise's grunt and Frank as a higher ranking, significantly older man), they've always both seemed to using each other in disturbing ways. It always seemed to me that Laurel was a rich girl who saw Frank as her "bit of rough," fun for being uneducated and less cultured than her usual B.F.'s, but not a serious long term love interest. He, meanwhile, seemed to view her as a sex object/ unattainable rich girl to be seduced and subsequently "humbled." Even when he "fell in love" with her, it seemed to me his feelings weren't much deeper than a lust for her body.

And now that Bonnie's in the picture, the whole thing is 10 times creepier. Frank is heartlessly betraying Bonnie;  and Laurel is using Frank as her human "meat stick" due to post anti deppressant horniness (or... something. Kinda having trouble even listening to Laurel's drone, self pitying monologues at this point.) Just... no thanks to this whole "relationship", at this point.

And since I'm kind of on a role being rude, I must say I loathe Laurel this season. Yes, she's been through hell. but unlike all of the other Keating kids, she has yet to truly develop or grow as a character. Connor, Michaela, and Asher have both deepened and changed trhoughout the course of the show; now all three are complex, interesting characters, which makes them continue to be compelling, even when they are acting whiny, rude or insufferable. (Michaela and Asher in the past; Connor this season.) Yet Laurel has barely changed at all from episode one, remaining the vaguely nice, vaguely pretty, vaguely good, vaguely liberal guilt young woman she's been from episode one. Everything we now know about her-- she's from a privileged background; suffers from guilt from said background; has a corrupt criminal father; claims to care about social justice while rarely caring about clients and remaining stunningly self involved-- have been true since the first few episodes. The only thing that's changed in the fourth season is that she is now slightly whinier and self pitying; but this hardly makes for an interesting character. 

[Hazel55]

On 10/19/2017 at 10:37 PM, Lady Calypso said:

You know, I have to say that the image of two white guys sitting across four very powerful black women was strong. I couldn't help but smile at that. One of the reasons I like this show, that's for sure.

Also notable: all four women of color were stone cold knockouts, whereas the white males were balding and nondescript. (Sorry to be shallow. But I just call ‘em like I see ‘em.)

Good episode—they are continuing to effectively racket up the suspense about where Laurel’s baby is; I am enjoying Analise’s psychology sessions as a framing device; and Michaela’s new mentor continues to kick butt in all things, including the fashion arena. Meanwhile, Laurel’s breathtaking selfishness and utter lack of a moral compass continues to steadily erode any sympathy I once had for her; Frank nauseates me as always; and Nate is growing increasingly irritating.

[Annber03]

30 minutes ago, Hazel55 said:

Ugh, oh yes. 

For reasons I can't fully articulate, the "relationship" between these two has always grossed me out, even before the infidelity angle came along.  In addition to the fact that there was initially a great power imbalance between the two (with Laurel as Analise's grunt and Frank as a higher ranking, significantly older man), they've always both seemed to using each other in disturbing ways. It always seemed to me that Laurel was a rich girl who saw Frank as her "bit of rough," fun for being uneducated and less cultured than her usual B.F.'s, but not a serious long term love interest. He, meanwhile, seemed to view her as a sex object/ unattainable rich girl to be seduced and subsequently "humbled." Even when he "fell in love" with her, it seemed to me his feelings weren't much deeper than a lust for her body.

And now that Bonnie's in the picture, the whole thing is 10 times creepier. Frank is heartlessly betraying Bonnie;  and Laurel is using Frank as her human "meat stick" due to post anti deppressant horniness (or... something.

All of this. Yes. I've just always thought Laurel was too smart to fall for his playboy shtick. A brief fling/one-night stand between them, okay, maybe that'd happen, like, once, but yeah, I've never brought the idea of them being a long-term thing, or some sort of grand love affair. 

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

wrong thread. Moving post.

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV, it's not about their having "serious issues" per se. His dad even made sure to verbalize that he liked Oliver and thinks he's a great guy. And on the surface, he and Connor do seem happy and great for each other. But what his father was verbalizing is that it feels like a facade on Connor's part. That the person he is right now is not who he is or was and that who he really is, Oliver is not the guy for him. Now if we want to be technical, of course it's to create drama for the couple because it is a television show. Just like Oliver's dickish reasons and behavior last season in breaking up with Connor. I am just saying that while others may not agree, I personally do think on some level it makes sense.

The fact is not even so much that Connor and Oliver started on a lie but that they started off from Connor's being in a very emotionally vulnerable and desperate place. For a long time Oliver was a symbol of the seemingly one good and honest thing in his life. Like would Connor and Oliver really have even gotten back together after Oliver found out about the guy Connor slept with, who killed himself, if Connor hadn't inadvertently been involved in Sam's murder? Yes, I know Connor made a gesture and attempt to see him when the male friend's of Oliver's opened the door but he didn't seem to make much effort after that. Hell, would Connor have even gone back to Oliver if the guy hadn't killed himself because again, it was the aftermath of that that prompted his desire to make things official with Oliver.

And that I feel is ultimately the point of what his dad was saying, albeit maybe it wasn't delivered perfectly. That something happened to Connor, something that affected him to his core and it made him gravitate to Oliver because it made sense and felt right at the time. But is that really the person for him? 

I can appreciate what you're saying, but  I don't think Connor is faking it. He's changed. His father is just not privy to the reasons why.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Milaxx

[FozzyBear]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:13 PM, Blue Plastic said:

Why did Connor's dad say all that stuff to him about Oliver?  Did he mean that he thinks Oliver is too "normal" for Connor?  Not sure why, if he is trying to mend the father-son relationship, he would start talking BS about Oliver.

I just want to find out WTH happened in the elevator at Annalise's and also at the law firm.

I took it in a couple of ways. 

1. Conner is right about his dad. His dad may come across as this nice guy who’s just doing his best, but at his core he’s a deeply sick, manipulative individual. He’s a guy who ruins other people’s happiness just to do it. I took this as proof that whatever happened between Conner’s parents went beyond a closeted guy who’s coming out was hard on people. Something about the way he did it and treated his ex-wife was twisted and nasty.

2. I also think it’s a plot devise to put a wedge between Conner and a Oliver by planting seeds of doubt about their relationship in Connrs mind.

3. I’m not completely sure, but I think Conber’s dad and his boyfriend might have a long con of some sort that they need Conner for. Separating him from Oliver might be part of it.

PS I’m catching up on this season on Hulu so if some of my theories are true or untrue I don’t know it yet. 

[FormerMod-a1]

I thought he had seen Connor change, but he doesn't know about all the murder and mayhem so Oliver is the only change he sees that could do that.  So it looks like Connor went from bold and outgoing to more quiet, homebody-ish and meeker (although not meek) and blames it on Oliver.

[Chas411]

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nd now that Bonnie's in the picture, the whole thing is 10 times creepier. Frank is heartlessly betraying Bonnie;  and Laurel is using Frank as her human "meat stick" due to post anti deppressant horniness (or... something. Kinda having trouble even listening to Laurel's drone, self pitying monologues at this point.) Just... no thanks to this whole "relationship", at this point.

Word to this. So sick of Laurel and Laurel/Frank is gross.