S07.E02: A Pirate's Life

[Rumsy4]

WHook is not calling having a child as a bad thing, but he's looking at the final end result--which was heartbreak and misery. It's the kind of thing people would say under such circumstances. Because the pain of losing the child probably overshadows every joy he ever felt at her birth.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The latter case is pretty ridiculous, because it means Genie magic not only made copies of people who existed in the Prime Universe, but could create whole new beings with no need for a template. 

Not really. There would have to be people in the Wish Realm who didn't exist in the Prime Universe, otherwise no one but Emma and Baelfire was having children in the Wish Realm during the 28 years corresponding to the real Enchanted Forest's time freeze.

58 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

WHook is not calling having a child as a bad thing, but he's looking at the final end result--which was heartbreak and misery. It's the kind of thing people would say under such circumstances. Because the pain of losing the child probably overshadows every joy he ever felt at her birth.

Exactly. And we don't know how soon after her birth she was imprisoned, or that he was actually in love with or ever lived happily with her mother, since that's not a requirement for having children.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, Kktjones said:

Sorry, I just don't get this. Henry didn't seem to be in any type of peril at all. He was still in search of his own story and decided to look for Cinderella. Why would Emma leave her home, job, parents, and life in Storybrooke to tag along, even if she weren't pregnant? Unless I wasn't paying enough attention and there was some sort of imminent danger surrounding Henry. In which case, why wouldn't Henry just leave with them to get away from it? If anyone's doing the abandoning here, it's Henry.  

He's still in Lady Tremaine's personal crosshairs and also wanted by the kingdom for supposedly helping kill the Prince. Especially if he's looking for Cinderella, who's also in Lady Tremaine's crosshairs and wanted for supposedly killing the Prince. They know this. Tremaine already captured him and nearly had him killed if not for Regina and Hook's timely appearance. Every moment he spends in this new realm is inherently dangerous.

He doesn't just leave because he needs to save Cinderella. Unlike the people you're talking about I don't think Emma is abandoning him, but Regina tagging along to help him isn't a bad thing in high-stakes circumstances like these.

[Kktjones]

6 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Regina tagging along to help him isn't a bad thing in high-stakes circumstances like these.

I'm not trying to argue (trust me when I say I really don't care that much at all), but this was never mentioned as a reason for Regina to stay with Henry. They only talked about Regina staying as part of "Operation Next Chapter" and finding her story. Henry potentially being in danger was never brought up during his conversations with Emma or Regina. They both asked if he was sure he didn't want to return to SB, but it was more in the context that they would miss him than that they were worried about him. Anyway, it just bothered me when the usual Emma haters piled on about her "abandoning" Henry when I don't think she did any such thing. :)

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not really. There would have to be people in the Wish Realm who didn't exist in the Prime Universe, otherwise no one but Emma and Baelfire was having children in the Wish Realm during the 28 years corresponding to the real Enchanted Forest's time freeze.

Are you saying that there would be lots of new people created by Genie Magic in the Wish Realm to add more backstories to the lives of people whose paths diverged from the prime universe? Maybe. We'll find out this season I guess. It's likely they'll do the backstory with a younger looking Wish Hook, and not the older version. And Adam's twitter feed is going to blow up with people arguing whether the Wish Realm always existed (which we are led to believe no), or if the whole flashback is just one giant collective memory implant.

I'm not denying that Wish Hook's daughter was created by the Genie Magic, I'm just saying it is ridiculous. The Wish created a child for Copy!Hook with half his DNA and half the DNA of some woman (who may or may not have a Prime Universe counterpart, and never actually existed in the Wish Realm if she "died" before the Wish Realm came into being). Genies are apparently so powerful that they are like a god who can create actual people. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

27 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Are you saying that there would be lots of new people created by Genie Magic in the Wish Realm to add more backstories to the lives of people whose paths diverged from the prime universe? Maybe. We'll find out this season I guess. It's likely they'll do the backstory with a younger looking Wish Hook, and not the older version. And Adam's twitter feed is going to blow up with people arguing whether the Wish Realm always existed (which we are led to believe no), or if the whole flashback is just one giant collective memory implant.

I'm not denying that Wish Hook's daughter was created by the Genie Magic, I'm just saying it is ridiculous. The Wish created a child for Copy!Hook with half his DNA and half the DNA of some woman (who may or may not have a Prime Universe counterpart, and never actually existed in the Wish Realm if she "died" before the Wish Realm came into being). Genies are apparently so powerful that they are like a god who can create actual people. 

Other people in Princess Emma's age group would continue be born to the people in Queen Snow and King Charming's age group after her birth. Even if those people only corresponded to the babies born in Storybrooke since the curse, they would themselves have children in Sir Henry the True's age group by now, who could not have counterparts. It's logically necessary. Otherwise, Sir Henry would have been the only child born in the entire world since then for some reason.

Randomizing and extrapolating combinations of DNA doesn't sound more spectacular than any other genie magic to me. A computer could do it.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Randomizing and extrapolating combinations of DNA doesn't sound more spectacular than any other genie magic to me. A computer could do it.

But as yet, a computer cannot create an actual human being. We're not in Matrix territory yet. But Magic is so advanced that it can create whole Realms and people de novo. 

[Camera One]

It's almost funny how when you take any given plot point and break it down, it raises so many questions and/or makes zero sense.

I actually hope that Regina regains her magic because I find Lady Tremaine incredibly annoying.  I do think Henry is in a dangerous situation considering he got captured and he's pretty useless at self-defense.  Though it didn't seem like anyone was worried about being found when they were camping and chatting.  Will the danger suddenly re-surface again next week?  Emma did say that she felt "better" that there was a version of Hook out there helping Henry.  I'm going to overlook her line about Henry always making the right choice.  His idiotic choices at the end of Season 5 caused a whole slew of problems.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

But as yet, a computer cannot create an actual human being. We're not in Matrix territory yet. But Magic is so advanced that it can create whole Realms and people de novo. 

But it can do an algorithm of one. A genie wish not only does that but makes it real. Making a hypothetical person real isn't much different from copying a pre-existing one, or extrapolating what a changed history could have been like, so I don't see why one would focus on that part. It's all a trick with life and matter. As to how powerful magic is, genie wishes are supposed to be a cut above personal witchcraft, that's why they're such a hot item. A genie is essentially a captive demigod.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I'm going to overlook her line about Henry always making the right choice.  His idiotic choices at the end of Season 5 caused a whole slew of problems.

And, y'know, thinking that Regina and Emma were lying to him near the end of 3A about the fact that Pan was lying to him about magic dying, despite having no reason to trust Pan.

[Camera One]

If Hook had a daughter with someone before the Wish Realm was even created, it would be like a Cursed memory, so personally, I would not be as affected by the reunion, since it's essentially a fake memory and never actually happened.  Wish Hook was such a mess the first time we saw him, that one would think that stuff with his daughter would have pre-dated that.  It's sort of like when Lana said she's really curious what Roni has gone through, except she never actually went through it, so does it matter?  It's very hard to care about Henry trying to find his fake dead family because it never actually happened.  

I too think that A&E would be more inclined to give us flashbacks with an attractive young Wish Hook, but these flashbacks would be fake memories.  I suppose they could have old, overweight Wish Hook find his daughter in the prison between Season 6 and Season 7.  But that old Hook was visually too distracting to write a dramatic episode around.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's sort of like when Lana said she's really curious what Roni has gone through, except she never actually went through it, so does it matter?  It's very hard to care about Henry trying to find his fake dead family because it never actually happened.  

I too think that A&E would be more inclined to give us flashbacks with an attractive young Wish Hook, but these flashbacks would be fake memories.  I suppose they could have old, overweight Wish Hook find his daughter in the prison between Season 6 and Season 7.  But that old Hook was visually too distracting to write a dramatic episode around.

Well, it would inform Roni's character.

Oh, that could be

Spoiler

the photos we've seen of Hook and Smee.

[Shanna Marie]

The way things in the Wish Realm are different depends on how, exactly, that pivot point came about. The wish was about Emma not being the Savior, which meant that the curse wasn't cast. But we don't know why the curse wasn't cast. There might be fewer differences if Regina almost got to it, but balked at killing her father. They suggested that Regina was a prisoner, so what might have happened was that Snow didn't let her go when they had her captive. That would have a ripple effect because it would mean Hook didn't meet Regina, didn't get sent to Wonderland, didn't meet Cora. Cora gave him hope that he could defeat Rumple by going to a world where he wouldn't be immortal and invincible. We also know that Neal was there to be Henry's father, which means Bae might have come back from Neverland with Hook, and at a different time from when our Hook came back to stay. So, Hook's life might have been very different, which could have led to the daughter. 

There's always the possibility that the Wish Realm always exised as a kind of parallel universe in which things went a different way, and the wish transported our Emma there, but then that doesn't explain what happened to that Emma, and it means Regina murdered real people. 

I would say that the memories are real to them. The people are real now. So if WHook is a real person, he remembers a daughter, and the daughter now exists, does it matter if all of them were poofed into existence with fake memories? It's real to him. He's not aware that he was poofed into existence with fake memories by a wish. When we see flashbacks, they will be of events that are real to him, and in a sense, they'll become real to us because we've seen them.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

Wish Hook was such a mess the first time we saw him, that one would think that stuff with his daughter would have pre-dated that. ...

I suppose they could have old, overweight Wish Hook find his daughter in the prison between Season 6 and Season 7.  But that old Hook was visually too distracting to write a dramatic episode around.

Old Hook did say that he stopped drinking and sobered up after Emma left the Wish World, so it is possible that he had a child after that, lost the child, got cursed, and wandered the Realms looking for a cure, but as you say, it's hard to visualize Old Wish Hook in such a flashback. 

Quote

But it can do an algorithm of one. A genie wish not only does that but makes it real. 

I've never read of a computer creating an algorithm for a human being--real or imagined.  And anyway, the Wish Realm is full of contradictions and unbelievable plot holes. It's just not possible to explain it coherently. It's fake except when it's not. And the people in it aren't real except for Wish Robin and Wish Hook. But Regina totally did not murder Wish Snow and Charming, and she and Emma didn't abandon Wish Henry. But we should care totally about Wish Hook and his daughter, who may also have been created by the Wish. She is Real, but her backstory is implanted memories. 

Quote

I would say that the memories are real to them. The people are real now. So if WHook is a real person, he remembers a daughter, and the daughter now exists, does it matter if all of them were poofed into existence with fake memories? It's real to him. He's not aware that he was poofed into existence with fake memories by a wish. When we see flashbacks, they will be of events that are real to him, and in a sense, they'll become real to us because we've seen them.

In a way, this dilemma is similar to the question about AI-beings in Sci-Fi stories like er...A.I., Westworld, BSG, Blade Runner, etc.. At a certain point, it stops mattering if they are "real" or not, becasue we start to care about them. What bothers me about the Wish Realm is that the writers want to have it both ways. They want it to be real in some cases, and fake when it doesn't suit them. It's the disingenuousness of it all that pisses me off. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Quote

I would say that the memories are real to them. The people are real now. So if WHook is a real person, he remembers a daughter, and the daughter now exists, does it matter if all of them were poofed into existence with fake memories? It's real to him. He's not aware that he was poofed into existence with fake memories by a wish. When we see flashbacks, they will be of events that are real to him, and in a sense, they'll become real to us because we've seen them.

I don't know how I feel about flashbacks of things that never actually happened.  We've never entered that territory on the show before.  

For me personally, the Writers will need to be really good in their writing to make me care about something that the character thinks happened but actually never happened.  And they're not that good.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I've never read of a computer creating an algorithm for a human being--real or imagined. 

I have.

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

What bothers me about the Wish Realm is that the writers want to have it both ways. They want it to be real in some cases, and fake when it doesn't suit them. It's the disingenuousness of it all that pisses me off.

Me too. I guess from now on, since Wish Hook is a main character and his backstory is important, it'll be Real all the way through, and we're to never think about the murders of Queen Snow and King Charming again. They may even flash back to history that was created by the wish.

[Camera One]

This episode muddied the waters for why Henry sold Jacinda out in Episode 1, by telling Victoria where she might be.  

The only reason I could think of was that Henry needed his car for his Uber job, and he was cash-strapped.  But in this episode, apparently, he does quite well financially and can dish out $550 no problem.  He can also get hired as a bartender at high-class charity fundraisers at the drop of a hat.  

So... he sold her out because???

Edited October 20, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I have.

I would love to read that paper. Could you link it?

However, even if it were possible to design a new human being out of a simulation, which I'm extremely skeptical of, that's not the solution for the Wish Verse problem, is it? I would buy a sci-fi explanation if it was that kind of a Show, but it's not. I would even be fine with a magical explanation, if it was internally consistent. 

I do find myself invested in WHook, but as @Camera One said, they'll have to work extra hard to give us a convincing back story that only happened in WHook's head. It might make me sad, but perhaps not in the way intended.

The other issue is that the Show has never cared about cursed memories and identities once such a curse is broken. For all the talk about "we are both", the only person affected by it was Snow, and that was detrimental to her personality. Nobody else seemingly had any conflicts or issues. If we had seen some examples of cursed memories affecting the lives of people after the Curse broke, it would've been very interesting, and added to the consequences of Regina's actions. For example, were Grace's Cursed-parents happy to relinquish her to Jefferson, or did they share custody with him? Did Emma retain her memories of bringing up Henry or did it all fade away? The Show has never dwelt on these things, but it's now essentially asking us to care about fake memories in characters that may or may not be real.

One could argue that none of these characters are real, but that will take me out of the story. It moves into Atonement territory, and I hated that ending. I want to care about characters as though they're real, and if the story is going to keep blasting out that it's just fiction, I'm going to stop caring. That's another reason why having multiple realms where the same stories play out with minor variations bothers me a little. It makes it seem like none of these characters have any true free will. They fit some archetype or the other, and are fated to play out their lives in a certain pre-arranged manner.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The other issue is that the Show has never cared about cursed memories and identities once such a curse is broken. For all the talk about "we are both", the only person affected by it was Snow, and that was detrimental to her personality. Nobody else seemingly had any conflicts or issues. If we had seen some examples of cursed memories affecting the lives of people after the Curse broke, it would've been very interesting, and added to the consequences of Regina's actions. For example, were Grace's Cursed-parents happy to relinquish her to Jefferson, or did they share custody with him? Did Emma retain her memories of bringing up Henry or did it all fade away? The Show has never dwelt on these things, but it's now essentially asking us to care about fake memories in characters that may or may not be real.

Even in this episode, Emma talked about being nervous about the new baby because she'd never gone through the infant phase with diapers and bottles and such with Henry, so it seems as though her missing year fake memories of not giving Henry up and raising him from infancy either didn't stick or are not "real" enough for her to feel like she's already done this. Then there are her Wish Realm memories. When she "woke" up, did all the memories of growing up in the palace with two loving parents, then having Henry and bringing him up go away? If her memories of that time aren't real, can WHook's be? Or are they more fake for her because she had other memories that were real that overrode the fake stuff, while these are the only memories he has?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

However, even if it were possible to design a new human being out of a simulation, which I'm extremely skeptical of, that's not the solution for the Wish Verse problem, is it?

All you have to do in either case is pair up pre-existing genes. Nothing miraculous about that. And in the case of magic add a plausible life history, much like the Dark Curse. The making it all turn into solid matter is the miraculous part, but genie wishes are supposed to be. I do think that having these people then be Real, instead of essentially being soulless physical illusions, is overpowered, though. Back when they were saying they weren't Real, it felt more consistent with the a-wish-is-no-replacement-for-real-life theme of genie wishes. Creating life and matter is one thing, but imbuing them with souls should be beyond creatures of desire like genies.

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Did Emma retain her memories of bringing up Henry or did it all fade away?

At one point Henry said he wanted his memories of his life with Emma back when he was mad at Regina, which was weird because they hadn't hinted at them fading away before that.

53 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Then there are her Wish Realm memories. When she "woke" up, did all the memories of growing up in the palace with two loving parents, then having Henry and bringing him up go away?

Not according to what she told Wish Pinocchio. Although that was right after she 'woke up' and she was still in the Wish Realm physically.

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's another reason why having multiple realms where the same stories play out with minor variations bothers me a little. It makes it seem like none of these characters have any true free will. They fit some archetype or the other, and are fated to play out their lives in a certain pre-arranged manner.

That's bothered me ever since this idea was announced. It's like you can't even blame Lady Tremaine for being an evil stepmother because there are dozens of girls named Cinderella fated to have stepmothers who are evil.

Funnily enough, I had a dream last night where Ashley and Jacinda met in their amnesiac identities, got along well, and went out on the town shopping.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Mitch]

15 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Are you saying that there would be lots of new people created by Genie Magic in the Wish Realm to add more backstories to the lives of people whose paths diverged from the prime universe? Maybe. We'll find out this season I guess. It's likely they'll do the backstory with a younger looking Wish Hook, and not the older version. And Adam's twitter feed is going to blow up with people arguing whether the Wish Realm always existed (which we are led to believe no), or if the whole flashback is just one giant collective memory implant.

I'm not denying that Wish Hook's daughter was created by the Genie Magic, I'm just saying it is ridiculous. The Wish created a child for Copy!Hook with half his DNA and half the DNA of some woman (who may or may not have a Prime Universe counterpart, and never actually existed in the Wish Realm if she "died" before the Wish Realm came into being). Genies are apparently so powerful that they are like a god who can create actual people. 

This!!! And not only create actual people but give them souls...and yes, after the trip to Hades Once confirmed that everyone has a soul or a spirit that is separate from their physical body.  Unless WishRealm people dont have souls, ala Robin until RealRobin's soul came into him..so it WOULD be okay to kill them...ala Regina with Snow and Charming as they arent real. But even if they don't have souls is it okay to kill them.if they feel pain and emotions...okay, we have already thought this out more then A & E ever would...(or apparently the dimbulb fans on the Facebook page who seem to eat this stuff up....)
 

[Rumsy4]

41 minutes ago, Mitch said:

But even if they don't have souls is it okay to kill them.if they feel pain and emotions...

Exactly. I could still feel sympathetic towards them, but it definitely makes things murky.

On a related note, did Jekyll and Hyde truly separate into two beings, or did they share a soul, and is that why neither could live if the other died. What about Clone Queen and Regina? 

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Back when they were saying they weren't Real, it felt more consistent with the a-wish-is-no-replacement-for-real-life theme of genie wishes. Creating life and matter is one thing, but imbuing them with souls should be beyond creatures of desire like genies

Exactly. I get why they went with Wish Hook for S7, but it does highlight the poor world-building in the Show. 

Quote

okay, we have already thought this out more then A & E ever would...

That's for sure. Until the WHook flashback episode, I will try to not think too much about it. ;-)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I would love to read that paper. Could you link it?

However, even if it were possible to design a new human being out of a simulation, which I'm extremely skeptical of, that's not the solution for the Wish Verse problem, is it? I would buy a sci-fi explanation if it was that kind of a Show, but it's not. I would even be fine with a magical explanation, if it was internally consistent. 

Wait, what?  Granted, I haven't been following this conversation too closely, but @Rumsy4, you don't need to be just extremely skeptical.  You are right.  It is impossible to create a real live flesh and blood human being (soul or no - go see Supernatural) through a computer program!  Sure, there are computer algorithms that create virtual, simulated people in computer games (The Sims, ex.) but They. Are. Not. Real.  Not like apparently Whook is now Real.  smh.  I don't know what dude is trying to claim here...

[kingshearte]

On 10/19/2017 at 11:29 AM, Rumsy4 said:

What kind of an answer is it anyway to a question about how she and Hook were doing? Is Emma/A&E implying that a married couple aren't a family until they have a child??!

They'd hardly be the first. The phrase "starting a family" has always infuriated me for precisely that reason.

[ParadoxLost]

Good thing this show doesn't use portmanteaus for shipping names.  Because Whook is carrying a Rook around with him,

[Noneofyourbusiness]

20 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wait, what?  Granted, I haven't been following this conversation too closely, but @Rumsy4, you don't need to be just extremely skeptical.  You are right.  It is impossible to create a real live flesh and blood human being (soul or no - go see Supernatural) through a computer program!  Sure, there are computer algorithms that create virtual, simulated people in computer games (The Sims, ex.) but They. Are. Not. Real.  Not like apparently Whook is now Real.  smh.  I don't know what dude is trying to claim here...

"Complete human being" was actually Rumsy's words. I was actually talking about the fact that any computer you can scan DNA into could theoretically recombine the data randomly (I don't know whether or not it could then simulate an image of what they would look like, too, like those 3D models that project how a person's face will age in the future), and it now seems clear they got an exaggerated idea of what I meant. I was addressing that Rumsy thought "a person with half of Hook's DNA and half of someone else's" was somehow the unrealistic part of the scenario. If your genie wish can realize a whole realm of life and matter that includes people's bodies full of sperm and eggs in the first place, combining them shouldn't be any different. And "a computer could do it" was really a throwaway example not meant to lead to a discussion. :) (friendly face)

22 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

On a related note, did Jekyll and Hyde truly separate into two beings, or did they share a soul, and is that why neither could live if the other died. What about Clone Queen and Regina?

Exactly, that's another thing I've wondered about. In a show that actually has souls and the Underworld in it, it would be nice to address that. Are Jekyll and Hyde still separate in the Underworld? If the Evil Queen died, would she be in the Underworld while Regina is in Storybrooke? And if so, are they two souls or one split soul? Is it even possible to merge the two characters again?

Edited October 21, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Mitch]

5 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

"

Exactly, that's another thing I've wondered about. In a show that actually has souls and the Underworld in it, it would be nice to address that. Are Jekyll and Hyde still separate in the Underworld? If the Evil Queen died, would she be in the Underworld while Regina is in Storybrooke? And if so, are they two souls or one split soul? Is it even possible to merge the two characters again?

A & E, reading this..looking at each other confused...."Uh, okay, well, uh...oh...well...magic...uh, der...where there is hope, there..uh...gee...uh..so anyway, don't you think its cool that Cinderella rides a motorcycle???"

[Shanna Marie]

This one doesn't hold up well in retrospect because once you know what's going on, just about every character action turns out to be purely for the plot of this episode and not for any big-picture purpose that makes any sense whatsoever.

I do give them credit for coming up with a creative way to keep Colin on the show after JMo left while keeping Emma and Hook's happy ending alive. I'm so glad they didn't pull a Downton Abbey and just kill Emma off between seasons so that season 7 Hook was a grieving widower finding love again, and given how grudging they often were about this relationship, I wouldn't have put it past them (unless maybe they wanted to do that and the network nixed it because they knew that would send a lot of the few remaining fans fleeing in droves). I do love how Colin plays all the versions of Hook differently. You can tell the difference between Hook Prime and WHook, even when WHook is pretending to be Hook Prime, and then there's Rogers, who's also distinctly different.

The timeline was already getting wacky by this episode, since it looks like it's been at least 10 years (and probably more) since the end of the series, based on Henry's age, but Hook, Emma, and Regina haven't changed. Even if Henry's just 24, that makes Emma 41, and he looks closer to 30 (or older), making Emma 47 or so, and she's just now pregnant? Were we supposed to infer that she's been having trouble getting pregnant? There was a line in the flashback-back when she says something about "what if I never get my second chance," which I know was mostly to drive home the episode theme, but could also have implied that she was worried she might not be able to have another baby, and that would explain Hook's worry, wanting her to stay home and rest when she was pregnant. Though, of course, none of that actually came up overtly. There's still all the talking around the issue in dire terms, even when it was just Hook and Regina present, to stir up fake drama.

Spoiler

It gets sillier when you take into account the series finale, in which Hook and Emma have a newborn around the time Henry is getting ready for high school graduation. So, depending on how soon before that the fighting on the Jolly Roger took place, Emma should have been either heavily pregnant in that scene or had just had the baby. She and Hook wouldn't have been worrying over having their first kid together about ten years later. There's nothing in the time travel that should have changed this event that happened before the Seattle gang showed up, so it makes no sense at all.

Then there's the Rogers and Weaver plot, in which Weaver is worried about how trustworthy Rogers, the one known as Eagle Scout at the precinct, is, when Weaver is apparently so buddy-buddy with Victoria that he's at her beck and call. This is obviously an established relationship, not something Weaver is faking just to test Rogers. And why does Victoria or Lady Tremaine care so much about whether or not Henry and Jacinderella get together? She's acting like it must be stopped, but wouldn't Lady Tremaine want Cinderella out of her hair and away from her life, especially with some random guy who's likely to run off with her to another world? And getting Jacinda with someone who seems to be a moderately functional adult would probably help matters. The only explanation for Victoria that makes sense is if she's aware of the curse and is worried that Henry and Jacinda hooking up will be the true love that breaks the curse.

Spoiler

But when you know that's not the case, it really doesn't work at all. There's no reason for Victoria's cruelty to Jacinda. And, besides, the person they'd really need to keep Henry away from is Roni.

I wonder how much of the arc of the series was planned when they wrote this one or if they planned something that this was setting up and changed in midstream.

It does seem like Henry takes after his maternal grandmother in seesawing between hope and pessimism. He's nobody who'll never win a sword fight, he's sure Cinderella left him the shoe as a sign, she probably was just taking her shoes off. He's such a sad sack in general, both in the flashbacks and in the present, that's he's just not a very appealing protagonist. He's not a spunky underdog, the way season one Emma was. He's a highly privileged brat who's whining about not getting everything he wants (so he takes after his adoptive mother).

[Kktjones]

The biggest question I walked away with was "Who approved these awful hair extensions for JMo?" Honestly, why couldn't they just let her have her short blonde hair? It would be a nice way of indicating that years had passed. I guess they didn't think the GQ would know who Emma was without the long blonde hair and red jacket...

[KingOfHearts]

It's hard to care about Henry's quest. It's not that the character is particularly unlikable or that the acting is bad, but his motivations are not nearly as compelling as we've seen from others on the show. He was living in an idyllic town with a free ride to college and people who loved him, yet he left to go create his "own story". I don't judge him for that, but that's not really an obstacle. Henry's goals amount to first world problems. He wants a girlfriend and his own life. Don't a lot of guys that age? All the other characters had to overcome tragedy or climb a long ladder to the top. Even Regina, as entitled as she was, came from a heavy background. Henry doesn't have to redeem himself and his childhood abuse isn't a factor. He's essentially a blank slate. It falls on S7 to give him a new character arc with high stakes. We all know how that works out.

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

He was living in an idyllic town with a free ride to college and people who loved him, yet he left to go create his "own story". I don't judge him for that, but that's not really an obstacle.

I think it might have helped if they'd presented it in a lot more palatable way -- like in this episode, they seem to be trying to show the buildup to his decision to go, but it's him whining about barely losing (and then only because of an outside distraction) a fencing match against a 200-year-old military veteran pirate, and him thinking that means he's a nobody who'll never be any good. He doesn't head out on his quest with an "adventure is calling!" attitude, but with a whiny "I'm not in the storybooks and I want to be a hero" attitude.

And it doesn't even make sense since he is in a storybook -- he's the hero of the storybook cursed Henry Mills writes, which is all stuff he did before he left home (and seems to be the book he wrote as Author). This is a kid who's brought the Savior to town, put himself under a sleeping curse in order to get the Savior to break the town's curse, sailed on the Jolly Roger, become a Lost Boy and hung out with Peter Pan, stepped through an enchanted book into a magical alternate universe where he saved the day, traveled to Camelot and to the Underworld, destroyed magic and then brought it back by convincing New Yorkers to believe in magic. And on top of all that, he's the Author who can write stories magically in his sleep and alter reality with his pen. That's not enough for him?

They keep telling us how normal (and boring) Storybrooke is now that they've had a happy ending (never mind that this makes no sense, since none of what they dealt with previously had anything to do with the Black Fairy, so her defeat shouldn't have ended their problems), so maybe we should have seen that -- do a "boring life in Storybrooke" montage and show that if you've spent ages 10-whatever (he should have been 12, they said 14) having those kinds of adventures, normal life is kind of dull. Even going off to college is boring when there's no swashbuckling involved. But I still think it would have worked better if he'd had an Author assignment and if they'd been able to separate themselves from the habit of repeating season one and gone a different route. Show us Henry's life on the road, chronicling the realms, as the flashbacks, kind of a "Have Pen, Will Travel" thing, and then we see those people in the present. Maybe he could have met up with a woman along the way, and she's someone we see in the present -- does he get together with her? I'd be happy to skip the kid, but if we absolutely had to have that in this concept, have it be a mystery which of the women he meets on his journey ends up becoming his wife and mother of his child.

[Camera One]

Just rewatched this one, and it wasn't any better than the premiere.

I remember being vaguely interested in the new team-up in the present-day with Rogers, Henry and Roni uncovering Victoria's deep dark secrets.  

Spoiler

But we now know that "team" actually went nowhere fast.  You wonder what's the point of setting a premise up, if the Writers can't even stick to it for more than two episodes before completely dropping it.

So Hook "lied" to Henry about why Emma didn't come because "if Henry knew what really happened", he would go back to Storybrooke.  He didn't... such a caring son, eh?  It really took away from the "heartwarming" scenes between Emma and Henry.  "I still need to find my own story".  Shut the hell up.

And his whole "I'm sooo sorry, Jacinda!" schtik.  If you're so sorry, why the hell did you sell her out to Victoria?  

Why the heck did Lady Tremaine want the glass slipper anyway?  Did we ever find out?  

Lady Tremaine said to Whook, "After what you did to me..."  Did we ever find out their past together?

Emma said, "I don't think my magic works in this realm", yet Regina was able to slam Drizella against the wall without touching her.  I suppose Regina couldn't get the locator spell to work on the slipper, but talk about inconsistency.

Whook said he wish he knew the first step to take to find his daughter. 

Spoiler

So he didn't bother watching out for her from afar?  That seemed to be what they were implying later in the season.

On 9/14/2019 at 7:39 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Then there's the Rogers and Weaver plot, in which Weaver is worried about how trustworthy Rogers, the one known as Eagle Scout at the precinct, is, when Weaver is apparently so buddy-buddy with Victoria that he's at her beck and call. This is obviously an established relationship, not something Weaver is faking just to test Rogers.

Does Rumple have his memories?  If so, does his actions in Hyperion Heights make sense in retrospect?  This might be a topic for the All Seasons Thread.  If he does remember, what a great grandpa to punch your grandson in the face.

Even if Weaver was "testing" Rogers, it was still dumb to reveal his back-dealings with Victoria in front of Rogers.

Quote

The only explanation for Victoria that makes sense is if she's aware of the curse and is worried that Henry and Jacinda hooking up will be the true love that breaks the curse.

  Hide contents

But when you know that's not the case, it really doesn't work at all. There's no reason for Victoria's cruelty to Jacinda. And, besides, the person they'd really need to keep Henry away from is Roni.

I think that is supposed to be the reason.  Drizella enacted the Curse so that Victoria would think she's in charge and think that Henry and Jacinda's TLK could break it.  As for why Drizella hated Jacinda so much?  I don't remember.

Spoiler

Tremaine supposedly hated Jacinda because she blamed her for what happened to Anastasia.

Spoiler

Until Tremaine switched sides off-screen, of course.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Camera One

[PixiePaws1]

I always thought a much more creative use of Colin would have been a villain glamoured to look like Killian, running around sullying his name but got caught up in the curse to Hyperion Heights and 'stuck' in the Killian guise. The audience knows it's not Emma's Killian, so no shipping drama if he takes  up with a woman or a man, CS are perfectly safe and happy, and Colin gets a whole new character to bring to life.

Edited September 16, 2019 by PixiePaws1

[tennisgurl]

The real villain in this episode? Whoever stuck those awful hair extensions on poor Emma, that was an abomination against hair. 

The timeline has always been complete nonsense on this show, but its even worse this season. So Henry is an adult all of the sudden, after apparently just driving around realm after realm, but everyone else is the same age? I have no clue, and the super vague "Another realm, years ago" lines just make it even more confusing. I guess I give the writers a little bit of credit, they did at least come up with a decent reason for Colin to stick around without screwing up Hook and Emma's happy ending. 

Grown up Henry is such a loser, he couldn't bother to check in with his family for years apparently? And no desire to spend time with his pregnant mom, or be there when his new sibling arrives? Oh no, he has to "find his story" or whatever. Its like a rich kid who said he was taking a gap year, but it turned into a gap decade. It doesent seem to even be based around a love of travel or exploration or to bring stories to people or to help people, he just wants to be a hero, whatever that means to him. Its not an awful motivation, but I cant say I am too invested in it. 

So Victoria can just take a random dance class and charge a crap ton of money for people to go? Guess it sucks for all the other parents who cant afford that, but Jacinda got to see her, so I guess thats all that matters! And it didnt even move it to a decent venue. 

Spoiler

I cant say that, watching this, this season will end with everyone fighting an evil tree nymph and her army of coat hangers who wants to turn everything into trees after she destroyed everyone on the planet a million years ago thanks to Prehistoric Victorian Mean Girls.  

Edited September 16, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It doesent seem to even be based around a love of travel or exploration or to bring stories to people or to help people, he just wants to be a hero, whatever that means to him. Its not an awful motivation, but I cant say I am too invested in it. 

"I have to travel the story multiverse and insert myself into everyone else's stories so I can be a hero in all the storybooks" sounds more like a villain's scheme that has to be stopped. It's not a relatable protagonist goal. It wouldn't take much to turn it around and make it a villain arc -- the heroes have to stop the villain from destroying all the stories when he tries to make himself the hero.

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The real villain in this episode? Whoever stuck those awful hair extensions on poor Emma, that was an abomination against hair. 

And so unnecessary. It's really common (at least among my friends) for women with long hair to end up getting it cut within a few years of getting married. Leaving Jen's hair the way it was would have been a good way to show that time has passed.

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

So Hook "lied" to Henry about why Emma didn't come because "if Henry knew what really happened", he would go back to Storybrooke.  He didn't... such a caring son, eh? 

Yeah, that was one of those fake drama things, trying to build suspense for the audience more than it being about the characters. It doesn't sound like Henry had a moment's thought about going back. So the kid who desperately wanted a family grew into an adult who didn't care at all. But I guess he has Regina, and that's all he needs.

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

Does Rumple have his memories?  If so, does his actions in Hyperion Heights make sense in retrospect?  This might be a topic for the All Seasons Thread.  If he does remember, what a great grandpa to punch your grandson in the face.

Spoiler

He doesn't. There's a later episode in which he gets Alice to shoot him, which triggers the return of his memories. At this point, he still fully thinks he's Weaver.

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

Even if Weaver was "testing" Rogers, it was still dumb to reveal his back-dealings with Victoria in front of Rogers.

This is where you wonder if they're even reading the scripts for the earlier episodes. Just one episode earlier, they're calling Rogers "Eagle Scout" because he actually does the bare minimum of doing his job and doing the paperwork when a citizen comes in to report a crime. Meanwhile, Weaver is waterboarding someone. Then in this episode, apparently Rogers is shady for being too ambitious and working so hard to get a promotion, and Weaver has to test him to make sure that ambition doesn't corrupt him -- and it's framed as though the audience should be suspicious, too, especially once we start to get the idea that Rogers might actually be Wish Hook, since there's all the discussion about whether he's a good man. And yet, in this same episode, it's clear that Victoria has Weaver on speed dial, that he's done "favors" for her before, and she expects him to do shady stuff on her behalf.

So, was Weaver really testing Rogers, or was that his cover story when it turned out Rogers wasn't going to play ball? "Um, yeah, I was testing you, making sure you weren't corrupt. Yeah, testing, that's the ticket. Good job, passing that test."

And then there's Roni warning Rogers about Weaver. Just a few minutes ago, Rogers was telling Henry about a case he worked ten years ago in this neighborhood. If he's been working in the precinct all that time, wouldn't he be more aware of Weaver's reputation and what happens to his partners than a bartender would be?

I wonder how many people in the precinct are under the curse, and did the people who were already there get cursed memories to make them think Weaver and Rogers have been there all along instead of however long the curse has lasted? The curse seems to have done things the hard way by making Rogers, at least, have been around ten years rather than having the cursed people transfer over from Scotland Yard, or whatever, whenever the curse hit.

[Camera One]

31 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Just one episode earlier, they're calling Rogers "Eagle Scout" because he actually does the bare minimum of doing his job and doing the paperwork when a citizen comes in to report a crime. Meanwhile, Weaver is waterboarding someone. Then in this episode, apparently Rogers is shady for being too ambitious and working so hard to get a promotion, and Weaver has to test him to make sure that ambition doesn't corrupt him -- and it's framed as though the audience should be suspicious, too, especially once we start to get the idea that Rogers might actually be Wish Hook, since there's all the discussion about whether he's a good man. And yet, in this same episode, it's clear that Victoria has Weaver on speed dial, that he's done "favors" for her before, and she expects him to do shady stuff on her behalf.

So, was Weaver really testing Rogers, or was that his cover story when it turned out Rogers wasn't going to play ball? "Um, yeah, I was testing you, making sure you weren't corrupt. Yeah, testing, that's the ticket. Good job, passing that test."

I was thinking Weaver "testing" Rogers might have made sense if Rumple secretly had his memories

Spoiler

but since he doesn't (thanks for the reminder... my memories are hazy like I was under a Curse myself).

it makes zero sense that a clearly immoral person like Weaver would care about his partner's moral integrity.  Yet this was a major subplot for an entire episode.  If anything, Weaver would want his partner to be game for using their position of power for self gain.   Or to test that Rogers would follow his orders no matter what.

What Weaver said was:

Quote

You asked me why I chose you.  'Cause you wanted it so damn much.  I thought you'd do just about anything to keep it, cross any line.  Then I caught a glimpse of something, something in you I thought was extinct A moral core.  And that, believe it or not, is exactly what I wanted.

WTF?   If Weaver specifically CHOSE Rogers and was such a great "detective", he would have clearly seen that Rogers was genuinely willing to help as a police officer.  As you said, Rogers had a reputation as the "eagle scout".  

Spoiler

Rumple gets his memories back rather quickly after this, so Weaver's motives never need to be more clearly defined.

Going back to the last episode, Weaver asked Alice to tell him when ANYONE new entered the neighborhood?  That is literally impossible.  Henry was a random guy who parked his car and walked into Roni's - hardly anything worth raising the alarm about.

Speaking of which, Victoria gave up on taking over Roni's so quickly?  If she's the villain, she would have tried a little harder.

Henry looking for his family's lost graveyard so casually was hard to believe.  Surely, he would have been questioning his sanity and going to the doctor.  Why would Henry ask Rogers for help.  His question to Rogers was so vague, but Rogers came back with a list of cemeteries in Seattle?  Did Henry not have the internet?  He could also have called city records.  If the characters are not acting logically or responding like a normal person, it's impossible to truly feel for them or to take the premise seriously.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Henry was a random guy who parked his car and walked into Roni's - hardly anything worth raising the alarm about.

Yeah, does Tilly tell him about every single random person who shows up? When he is on coffee breaks, is Tilly bothering him about some woman who stopped to ask for directions at the local newsstand? Does she go running into his office in a tizzy to tell him that the pizza guy from the next neighborhood is in the neighborhood, delivering pizza?

Ronnie should have thought about selling her bar, its dead in there every single time we see it. Its just Henry and whoever Henry is talking to at the time, and we never even see him pay her for the drinks.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Ronnie should have thought about selling her bar, its dead in there every single time we see it. Its just Henry and whoever Henry is talking to at the time, and we never even see him pay her for the drinks.

LOL!  That is so true.  Does the Curse provide for people financially, maintaining them at their socioeconomic level as long as they continued doing the job they were given, like in Storybrooke?  So is Roni able to make ends meet with her pathetic bar no matter what?  But it's supposedly "real world" Seattle.  How does the Curse economy work with the real economy?  I wonder if this conversation occurred in the Writers' Room.

Speaking of which, why were Jacinda and Tiana eating out at Roni's if they were so broke?  Especially when she was eating a sandwich which looked like it was made at home.  And then Jacinda left without eating half of it.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Speaking of which, why were Jacinda and Tiana eating out at Roni's if they were so broke?  Especially when she was eating a sandwich which looked like it was made at home.  And then Jacinda left without eating half of it.

Because Jacinda is as irresponsible as they come. Lucy would probably be safer in Victoria's custody.

She can't afford rent but she can go out to eat at a bar. Sounds like Jacinda.

Edited September 17, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Because Jacinda is as irresponsible as they come. Lucy would probably be safer in Victoria's custody.

She can't afford rent but she can go out to eat at a bar. Sounds like Jacinda.

They cast an actress in her late 30s (and who looks her age) for the role, and the character has a 10 or so year-old daughter, but they write Jacinda as though she's about 20-21 -- lives with a roommate, the "rent jar," works in fast food, quits on a whim when she has a snit with her boss, hangs out at a bar with friends, eating her meals there. And it's not even a good portrayal of adult life in a tough economy. Then she'd have multiple jobs to pay the rent in Seattle. She wouldn't have afternoons free for day drinking. She acts more like a college kid than a mother, and to be her age and still living like that instead of having done something to get her act together doesn't speak well of her. Of course, a lot of that is due to the curse, which put her in her situation, but this curse doesn't seem to have that Groundhog Day effect of the original one, so it seems like there's free will once they're put in place. She's the one who quit her job, she's the one who hasn't had the brainstorm of maybe getting a second fast food job or maybe trying to do better and get promoted to manager.

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ronnie should have thought about selling her bar, its dead in there every single time we see it. Its just Henry and whoever Henry is talking to at the time, and we never even see him pay her for the drinks.

And Rogers is drinking water, so he's not contributing to the bottom line.

But this does make her dramatic speech in the last episode kind of silly. We needed to see the sense of community to care about whether or not it goes away. At the very least, Rogers' promotion celebration could have been had there, to show that it's a cop bar, and that then would have set up Roni being able to advise Rogers about Weaver (though, still, if Rogers has been in the precinct for 10 years and is worthy of being a detective, he should already know, though a bartender might have some scoop that the non-drinking Eagle Scout who doesn't socialize much with the others misses).

[Camera One]

Henry did such a bad job of avoiding being caught.  He was grinning on the horse so it seemed like he knew he was doing, but apparently not.  I have doubts he would have been able to save that "Rescue Me" bottle for 15 or so years without using it. 

When Lady Tremaine de-aged Whook, you would think she would ask him to impersonate Hook to get the glass slipper from Henry in return since she seemed so desperate to get the slipper.  So why didn't she?  

After dumping Hook, how did Whook find Henry and Regina in the forest?  

And speaking of Jacinda and Sabine eating at Roni's:

Spoiler

I thought Sabine loved cooking?  Why didn't she just make Jacinda some of her famous homemade cold beignets?

Edited September 18, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Just rewatched this one.  This time, I felt like there was still potential in Season 7 as of the end of this episode.   I was more moved this time when Emma told Henry she wish she had him with her in Storybrooke.

My friend asked why Emma, Hook and Regina didn't look any older even though Henry grew up.  She also found it difficult to comprehend what Whook was saying as he lay dying.  She also commented on how people drank a lot of alcohol.

That was the saddest $500 ballet ever.

 

[Shanna Marie]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

This time, I felt like there was still potential in Season 7 as of the end of this episode. 

I do remember feeling like maybe it would be okay after seeing this one. I have to give them credit, the WHook/Hook twist was really clever, a good solution to the tricky situation of needing to fit in Hook without Emma being available and without ruining the Emma and Hook story. It didn't quite work for me as a send-off for Emma, but it made me feel better about the season.

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

She also commented on how people drank a lot of alcohol.

Once we learn that WHook gave up alcohol and that was a big part of changing his life, and with them essentially treating Rogers as a recovering alcoholic, it makes it a lot more obvious how much drinking really does go on with these people and how they use alcohol as an emotional balm. When Hook Prime carries a flask full of rum at all times and Emma demands gulps from it when she's stressed, but then WHook says he gave up rum when he turned his life around, it makes you think about Hook Prime's relationship with alcohol.

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I do remember feeling like maybe it would be okay after seeing this one. I have to give them credit, the WHook/Hook twist was really clever, a good solution to the tricky situation of needing to fit in Hook without Emma being available and without ruining the Emma and Hook story. It didn't quite work for me as a send-off for Emma, but it made me feel better about the season.

My friend doesn't remember past episodes/events too well, so I wondered if this episode would make sense.  Watching with her, I noticed that Hook/Wish Hook did re-explain the Wish Realm concept briefly, which was enough to get the gist of why there were two Hook's.  I think it might still be tad confusing for brand new viewers jumping right in to Season 7, but I don't know if those viewers even existed.

So Rogers was tempted to gain favor with Weaver, because it was his idea to break into Henry's apartment to look for dirt?  What if they had found some?  

It was noticeable how many times they said "second chance" in this episode.  Henry asking Jacinda for a second chance, and her saying second chances have to be earned.  Original Hook saying Whook deserved a second chance.  Rogers saying the blond woman in Henry's book giving him a second chance.  The phrase was used 6 times.

At the start of the episode, when Emma was shown in the flashback, my friend said "I thought you said Emma left the show?"  I can imagine if someone didn't know the behind-the-scenes, and Emma never showed up again, they might have wondered why.