A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Rumsy4]

I do find it odd that there were apparently no light magic users available in that whole world. Is that something particularly rare? Aside from the fairies and the Oz witches (and Emma), all the magic users have been evil. Does that mean that magic tends to make people evil or that only evil people are drawn to magic? Since Regina was able to pull it out of her ass, it seems like an easy switch flip -- act out of love and presto, light magic!

 

It seems reasonable that if all the light magic users united (all the fairies+Glinda), they could have defeated Zelena. Or is light magic, and Emma's potential light magic, more powerful than everything combined? I wish they had made Zelena reveal to Snow and Charming that she had people watching Emma in the Real World. That would have at least mitigated Snow and Charming's decision to disrupt Emma's life when theirs was threatened.

[RadioGirl27]

If you take it out of context, I don't have a huge problem with Snow casting the second curse and sharing her heart with David. That's a rather lovely metaphor, and it makes for an interesting contrast with Regina, who was so selfishly driven toward her goal that she didn't even consider sharing her heart with her father. The problem is the context. That should have been a desperate, last-gasp maneuver after they'd tried and failed with everything else and doom seemed imminent. But we didn't see them trying anything, and I don't recall them learning about Zelena planning to alter time until they were in Storybrooke, so they didn't even have the motivation that history was going to be altered. It was more like they got a threat, spent eight months twiddling their thumbs, then said, "well, guess we have to cast the curse." Even just moving when they used the "eight months later" caption might have helped, if it came after they talked to Glinda. Wouldn't talking to Rumple have been the first thing they tried? That meeting when they discussed it (and when they did show the "eight months later") seemed more like a first meeting to lay out their initial steps, not the kind of thing that would have come after eight months of trying everything.

 

And then there's what came after, when it turned out they didn't need Emma, anyway. All that, for nothing. She wasn't needed to break the curse and wasn't needed to defeat Zelena.

Yeah. They should have shown Zelena and her monkeys terrorising the Enchanted Forest, maybe a battle or someone hurt or even dead. That way, Snow enacting the curse would have made sense. But the way they did it was so ridiculous.

Really, I don't know why they are so afraid of showing a bit of blood on this show. Because they weren't in season 1. I don't want it to be Game of Thrones, but now it's almost a joke.

Edited September 18, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Curio]

Really, I don't know why they are so afraid of showing a bit of blood on this show. Because they weren't in season 1. I don't want it to be Game of Thrones, but now it's almost a joke.

It also makes no sense when you take into consideration Once Upon a Time: Wonderland. On that show, they showed a person's bloody eyeballs served on a silver plate, showed a father attempting to drown his son in a tub of water, and had a (kind of) epic hand-to-hand battle between a bunch of undead people and the good guys. And that show was also on at 8:00 ET/7:00 CT, so it's not the time slot that's stopping them.

[Camera One]

Yeah, "Once Upon a Time in Wonderland" was weirdly gory.

 

But really, they didn't even need to show blood.  Even a distant fire in the forest off the balcony of the palace, or a line that the Monkeys are wreaking havoc.  Maybe they didn't do this because Zelena's actual mission was not to take over the kingdom, but to do a time-travel spell.  But I agree they needed to do *something* to show how the Wicked Witch was harming the general population, not just threatening Snow's baby.

 

Another question is - why didn't Zelena gather those ingredients (eg. Charming's courage, Regina's heart, etc.) WHILE they were in the Enchanted Forest?  And yet, there was a rush to trigger events to resurrect Rumple right away?  She didn't need him to spin a brain out of gold twine yet (conveniently, she didn't need Rumple's REAL brain).  (Wait a minute, I forgot Zelena needed Rumple to throw Hook into the trunk of a car)

 

It was more like they got a threat, spent eight months twiddling their thumbs, then said, "well, guess we have to cast the curse."

 

It is so weird that they just skipped those eight months.  

 

Look at the events we got to see in the Missing Year and then what the writers did NOT choose to show us:

- the search for items that could kill Zelena

- efforts to find Zelena's hideout and to destroy her (where was she?  was she still going back and forth from Oz?)

- efforts to find another way to get to Emma

 

Wouldn't these stories have been interesting and made the narrative more coherent?  

Edited September 18, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

Look at the events we got to see in the Missing Year and then what the writers did NOT choose to show us:

- the search for items that could kill Zelena

- efforts to find Zelena's hideout and to destroy her (where was she?  was she still going back and forth from Oz?)

- efforts to find another way to get to Emma

Don't forget these forgotten nuggets:

- how monkey Walsh went from being injured in the Enchanted Forest to traveling to New York and becoming human again

- Hook's epic journey that forced him to outrun the curse and find a person who has a magic bean... and trading his ship

- Snow and Charming grieving Emma at all 

- any footage of Roland and Robin staying at Regina's place

[Camera One]

It was more worthwhile to watch Zelena shaving her dad and Rumple in real time.

[Rumsy4]

It was more worthwhile to watch Zelena shaving her dad and Rumple in real time.

 

Almost spit my coffee. ;-)

[stealinghome]

I really do think the writers have forgotten that it's not the destination that matters as much as the journey.

[Shanna Marie]

Dear Glinda, perhaps you should consider a probationary period for anyone you're trying to turn from wicked behavior into being one of the main good witches of Oz before you hand over the super power-magnifying pendant that makes her too powerful for you to stop. You know, see how she does for a while without amplified power, see if she relapses at the first setback, look for signs of green returning, that sort of thing, before you make her invincible.

 

As for the rest of "Kansas," ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!, just ARRRGGGGHHHH!!! All hail the great, glowy goodness of the goddess Regina! Emma, who? And isn't it sweet that the engagement dagger is fake? Ah, their love is so true.

 

Seriously, was it Crazy Opposite Day when they wrote this episode?

[Camera One]

You know, see how she does for a while without amplified power, see if she relapses at the first setback, look for signs of green returning, that sort of thing, before you make her invincible.

 

Especially when she went, "Good job Zelena!  You resisted creepily watching Regina in your crystal ball for ONE NIGHT.  Bravo bravo bravo, you might not be mentally unstable anymore.  Now here's a pendant (aka a cache of machine guns and grenades along with an atomic bomb)."  

[KingOfHearts]

 

As for the rest of "Kansas," ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!, just ARRRGGGGHHHH!!! All hail the great, glowy goodness of the goddess Regina! Emma, who? And isn't it sweet that the engagement dagger is fake? Ah, their love is so true.

Oh Kansas. It had such a potential for greatness. But it blew it.

 

I didn't have a problem with Regina using light magic or her getting to be the one to defeat Zelena. It was supposed to be "Wicked vs. Evil", after all. What I did have a problem with though was how they got there. Emma loses her magic because she was stupid enough to walk right up to the farmhouse. Regina gets the courage to try using light magic from her cheerleaders calling her a hero. Meanwhile, everyone one else was totally useless because of Zelena's overpowered magic and control of Rumple. No one did squat but Regina. Her having light magic is fine and dandy, but throwing everyone else under the bus was just lazy writing.

 

The flashbacks were filled with even more good guys doing dumb stuff. I thought Glinda was going to be more than Blue Fairy 2.0, but she wasn't. The witches of the North and East were just extras with one or two lines each, which was disappointing. Dorothy was okay, but her whole story in Oz was just too fast for what she represents in the scheme of things. This episode skipped way too much lore in a short amount of time and watered down Oz to prop-up the whole "Change your destiny!" motto it was trying to hit home. The only creative instance was the fake death by water.

 

I couldn't really care less about Baby Snowflake's birth stuff. I was looking for an epic showdown against Zelena, but it didn't happen. Her death was very disappointing. I was really wishing she'd carry over to S4, but sadly she was just another one of A&E's toys that got thrown away. She probably would have helped Regina's character somewhat.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

This episode skipped way too much lore in a short amount of time and watered down Oz to prop-up the whole "Change your destiny!" motto it was trying to hit home. The only creative instance was the fake death by water.

 

I think it also shows Oz was not really what the writers were interested in, since we got no resolution on that front.  Oz was never mentioned or shown once in the Missing Year.  We only saw it pre-Wicked Witch.  So did the two Witches go look for Glinda?  Who ruled Oz?  Where the hell did Zelena send Dorothy?  Are we just not supposed to care?  

Edited September 19, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

The only creative instance was the fake death by water.

Was it even that creative? I feel like someone on our board called that Emma would need to give him CPR like ten minutes after 'Jolly Roger' aired!

 

Before they made Zelena The Dumbest Ever (ie up through 3x14), I was really hoping they'd keep her on as a recurring villain that swanned in once or twice a season just to screw with Regina (and by extension everyone else). She just had a catty bitchy sorority sister vibe that would have worked perfectly with that kind of recurring villain role. But with the Zelena we actually got? No thanks. I was heartily sick of Pan by the end of 3A, but I think I'd rather him come back than her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Was it even that creative? I feel like someone on our board called that Emma would need to give him CPR like ten minutes after 'Jolly Roger' aired!

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding here, I was talking about when Dorothy "killed" Zelena with water. :)

 

 

Before they made Zelena The Dumbest Ever (ie up through 3x14), I was really hoping they'd keep her on as a recurring villain that swanned in once or twice a season just to screw with Regina (and by extension everyone else). She just had a catty bitchy sorority sister vibe that would have worked perfectly with that kind of recurring villain role.

The show needs a character like that - a consistent minor villain who pops here and there. King George filled that role somewhat until Child of the Moon. I really wanted to see Regina dealing with her sister. That would have been so much better than Outlaw Queen, imo. It would have even fit the Frozen theme.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was talking about when Dorothy "killed" Zelena with water. :)

 

LOL, I do think that was sort of creative and a decent "twist", which is pretty much the only thing we can be sure to get on this show.

 

As for Emma having to do CPR on Hook, that was just hokey.  I actually don't buy that Emma would lay her lips on Hook.  She knew that losing her magic could mean Zelena would succeed, and that her baby brother would be kidnapped and her whole existence as well as Henry would be erased from the timeline.  Emma did not hesitate to let Neal die just to find out the identity of the Wicked Witch, and I think she would have let Hook die for the greater good, regardless of her feelings.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding here, I was talking about when Dorothy "killed" Zelena with water. :)

Was it even that creative? Elphaba fakes her death by water on Wicked. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Was it even that creative? Elphaba fakes her death by water on Wicked.

I've never seen Wicked, truth be told. I'd say the death by water twist was probably the most creative part of the retelling, but it's definitely far from innovative. It's the only part of the flashback that stands out.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I'd never seen or read Wicked, either, so I remember really liking that the "I'm melting, I'm melting" thing was a Zelena fake-out and thinking that was a neat way of dealing with the whole "but why can't they just throw a bucket of water at her?" question.

[KingOfHearts]

Did anyone else find August to be an annoying human being? I don't blame the seven year old for abandoning Emma, for that I blame Gepetto, but as an adult he just seemed like a douche. It's as if he purposely tries to seem enigmatic to appear he knows a lot. His "secrets" were always really lame, like his wooden box or adding pages to the storybook. Going against the Dark One to control him was pretty brainless of him too. I never cared for his "turning into wood" plot or his encounter with Tamara in Hong Kong.

 

I don't see how putting Emma in jail was the best thing for her at all. He acted very self-righteous when told Neal what to do, like he knew what was best after spending years doing the wrong things. How he handled it all was contrived and weird, much like Zelena. I'd like to find out he was Pan's puppet or whatnot. How else would he know Neal was Baelfire?

 

 

But I also find that Eion Bailey's presence on screen has a natural... how do you say... smug asshole quality to it? (Sorry, Eion. I have no rationale explanation for why I think that. But hey, maybe that's why you got the

Curio, I know exactly what you mean. Nothing against Eion, but I didn't like the actor either. He was like sandpaper to me.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Did anyone else find August to be an annoying human being?

I found him annoying the moment he appeared on my screen and realized he was the new "pretty boy" for Emma to replace Graham. But I also find that Eion Bailey's presence on screen has a natural... how do you say... smug asshole quality to it? (Sorry, Eion. I have no rational explanation for why I think that. But hey, maybe that's why you got the part?)

Edited September 19, 2014 by Curio

[SilverShadow]

Did anyone else find August to be an annoying human being? I don't blame the seven year old for abandoning Emma, for that I blame Gepetto, but as an adult he just seemed like a douche.

See I totally blame the seven year old for abandoning a baby. I blame Gepetto and Blue more for putting him in that position to begin with, but he knew it was wrong, he knew it was the easy way out, and he did it. Of course he didn't process it the same way a mature adult was or think of the consequences the way one would, but he was old enough to know he was leaving a helpless infant all alone with adults that weren't going to treat her well. And it wasn't like he went back to find her later, except to fuck up her relationship with Neal, and then again when he himself was in danger. Maybe it's because I'm an older sibling, but that moment killed a lot of my sympathy for him, and the shit he pulled in season two made sure it never came back.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Of course he didn't process it the same way a mature adult was or think of the consequences the way one would, but he was old enough to know he was leaving a helpless infant all alone with adults that weren't going to treat her well.

I think Emma actually had a better chance with the foster system than going with young August. Those homeless young boys wouldn't be able to take care of a young infant. It was an adult matter that no young child should have had to go through.

 

August didn't exactly turn out any better than Emma when he grew up. In fact, I think Emma turned out better eventually. (After Neal.)

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I didn't have a problem with Regina using light magic or her getting to be the one to defeat Zelena. It was supposed to be "Wicked vs. Evil", after all.

I don't have a problem with Regina being the one to defeat Zelena, though I'm really iffy on her doing it with light magic if the concept is "Wicked vs. Evil," since by definition light magic isn't evil, so it's no longer wicked vs. evil then. But since Zelena was Regina's sister and since her plan was to take Regina's place, it was apt that the final showdown be between those two.

 

How they got there was the real problem, on multiple levels:

1. Regina uses light magic, which comes from love, without a heart, when it's been shown repeatedly that it's impossible to really love without a heart.
2. Glinda said that only the strongest light magic could defeat Zelena. Even she couldn't defeat Zelena. But in that very episode they showed that Regina didn't even have the strongest dark magic. She was struggling with something that Zelena did more easily and with more power, even before she got the pendant. So how did someone whose magic was weaker to begin with and who has never used light magic and who doesn't even have a heart have more powerful light magic than someone whose name includes the words "good witch"?
3. All the setup was aimed at Emma -- she's the one born of true love who might have had the kind of light magic that went even beyond Glinda. They did the curse to reach Emma. And then Emma didn't even matter. The outcome wouldn't have changed without her there. She didn't even really get to try or to participate. That's not a twist. That's anticlimactic and made everyone look stupid.
4. The "our last hope has failed, so now someone unexpected has to do something unexpected" plot is fine, but it really doesn't work so well if it's done at the expense of one of the other main or regular characters. It would actually have been a fun twist if they'd been counting on Glinda confronting Zelena, only to have something go wrong, so Regina had to step up. If you're going to do it at the expense of a main character, then the one stepping up has to be unlikely in the "never tried this before" sense -- like if Henry turned out to have inherited his mother's magical ability and was the one to win. It's not really an unexpected twist if the person who's already known to be powerful turns out to be even more powerful and super special. That's just Mary Sue writing.
5. If you're going to do something so trite as force a life-or-death decision the way they did with the kiss curse, they should at least get it right. The thing that was so frustrating about Emma losing her magic from doing CPR on Hook was that she did it wrong. She could at least have tried turning him on his side and hitting his back to try getting the water out while doing the "don't leave me" stuff before she had to resort to the rescue breathing. Current guidelines call for chest compressions next before rescue breathing, but there's some debate on that and it's a new thing, so I'll cut some slack, but you'd think she'd have tried every other means necessary before she gave up the power that was needed to save her baby brother and would only have given in and done the mouth-to-mouth when everything else had failed and he still wasn't breathing (contrary to the way it usually works on TV, shouting "Don't leave me!" doesn't count as first aid or as trying anything to help). But that's par for the course on this show, where they skip straight to the last resort without trying any intermediate steps.
6. If they were going to do the switcheroo and take Emma out of the magical picture, they could at least have given her some other role so that her entire presence wasn't pointless. Otherwise, the sacrifice to cast the curse was unnecessary, as was Hook's sacrifice in giving up his ship to reach her. Not to mention the inconvenience to all the other people in the kingdom, who were abruptly uprooted again.

[SilverShadow]

I think Emma actually had a better chance with the foster system than going with young August. Those homeless young boys wouldn't be able to take care of a young infant. It was an adult matter that no young child should have had to go through.

 

August didn't exactly turn out any better than Emma when he grew up. In fact, I think Emma turned out better eventually. (After Neal.)

 

Sorry if I was unclear! By no means should August have taken Emma with him. I meant he should have stayed with her at that house to look out for her as best he can, and not gone with the other kids when they ran away. And agreed very much that he shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Sorry if I was unclear! By no means should August have taken Emma with him. I meant he should have stayed with her at that house to look out for her as best he can, and not gone with the other kids when they ran away. And agreed very much that he shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place.

I totally misread your post! I agree August should have stayed with her.

[Serena]

I have issues blaming a 7-year-old for getting out of an abusive situation. Would 7-year-old!Charming have done that? Probably not, but I wouldn't blame him if he had. The fact that when he was older - let's say, 18 years old - he didn't come back, that I totally blame him for. And all the rest.

[ShadowFacts]

A little kid in a foster home or group home or whatever it was has next to no power or ability to do anything about much of anything. He gets a pass from me during his childhood. And an eighteen year-old going back to find or help an unrelated eleven year-old wouldn't fare well, either. It's his later actions that were shitty and indefensible.

[Dani-Ellie]

In terms of life experience, I don't think August was much older than Emma herself. Magic poofed him into a seven-year-old, but how long had he been a puppet beforehand? How long was he a real boy before Geppetto sent him through the wardrobe? A couple of years, if that? A child that young hasn't the first clue how to take care of a newborn baby.

 

I don't know if I blame August for leaving. An impossible burden had been placed on his very young shoulders. I understand the thinking that he should have stayed with her because someone in Emma's corner is much better than no one, but who knows if they would have even been kept together anyway? They may have entered the system together but they weren't related. Even in August's cover story, they weren't related; she was just a baby he happened to find by the side of the road.

 

Now, his not coming back for her when he came of age and then him and Neal completely screwing her over afterward ... that's when the steam starts pouring out of my ears.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't know if I blame August for leaving. An impossible burden had been placed on his very young shoulders. I understand the thinking that he should have stayed with her because someone in Emma's corner is much better than no one, but who knows if they would have even been kept together anyway?

 

It was a situation of leaving the frying pan and going into the fire. He was trading one troubled situation for another. Those boys weren't escaping to better lives. If it's similar to the original Pinocchio story at all, they were just after pleasure. They were using stolen money to get away, after all. I don't blame him too badly for that since he was trying to escape, but I agree it was what he did later that made me mad. Emma's foster childhood wasn't only because of August, but because of Blue, Regina, Rumple, and Geppetto.

 

It infuriates me that the Blue Fairy, of all people, lied, but also Geppetto for being so selfish.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Curio, I know exactly what you mean. Nothing against Eion, but I didn't like the actor either. He was like sandpaper to me.

imo, Eion Bailey improved tremendously once they allowed him to drop the "dark and mysterious" and needlessly obfuscatory schtick (aka when they revealed he was Pinocchio and had him talk straight with Emma) and let him try to make amends with Gepetto, show some real remorse, etc etc etc. Because I agree--for the first like 8 episodes he was on, he was obnoxious and didn't seem to quite gel with the rest of the cast/show. Then it was like night and day, when they revealed his identity and Bailey got to play something other than "smug mysterious asshole." (Also by that time they had figured out that Bailey and Morrison didn't have chemistry and backed off chem testing them, which also helped.)

 

Pinocchio definitely, definitely suffered from being a character whose actions make no logical sense but have to be the way they are to further the plot. In fact, after Zelena, his character may have been harmed by the Plot Bug more than anyone. I also do suspect that the writers had bigger plans for August and didn't expect Bailey to leave the show, so they had to alter (very poorly) some of the story there.

 

fwiw, I don't really blame 8-year-old August for abandoning Emma, nor do I blame him for leaving her behind. I do blame him for not going back for her the second he turned 18 (or 21), and for every day for the next 10 years that he didn't. (I also absolutely blame Gepetto, whose machinations put him in that position to begin with. Sorry, Gepetto, I have empathy for you, I really do, but your son is not more important than your entire world. And at least have the balls to look Snow and Charming in the eye and say "my son goes instead of Charming" instead of doing it on the sly. Ugh, I'm still so mad at the totally anticlimactic way the wardrobe lie was handled. That should've been a f'ing gamechanger, and yet Snow was portrayed as evil for, gasp, getting mad at what Gepetto did. UGH.)

Edited September 19, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

Was it even that creative? Elphaba fakes her death by water on Wicked.

 

Hmm... good point.  That doesn't happen in the book, but apparently, it happens in the musical, and I'm assuming that musical is one reason why the showrunners chose to do Oz in the first place, not because of the original Baum books, where the Wicked Witch was just evil.

 

 

 

It infuriates me that the Blue Fairy, of all people, lied

 

It is unfortunate, but I sort of understand why she did.  Gepetto was refusing to build the wardrobe unless Pinocchio was given a spot in the wardrobe.  If he didn't build the wardrobe, then no one would have escaped the Curse, and Blue knew that Emma must escape the curse or all is lost.  Blue expected a pregnant Snow to go through so Emma wouldn't have been alone.  Basically, Blue was willing to sacrifice Charming's seat so that the "plane" could be built in the first place.  We know she doesn't get mushy about love, so maybe she was just looking at the bigger picture.

 

 

 

Imo, Eion Bailey improved tremendously once they allowed him to drop the "dark and mysterious" and needlessly obfuscatory schtick (aka when they revealed he was Pinocchio and had him talk straight with Emma) Because I agree--for the first like 8 episodes he was on, he was obnoxious and didn't seem to quite gel with the rest of the cast/show.

 

That's exactly how I felt.  The character left me cold for so many episodes.  One problem is that it seems like his character was created to fool us into thinking he was Baelfire.  As usual, the writers likely thought of the twist before the actual story... oh wouldn't it be neat if everyone thought the Stranger was Rumple's son but really it was Pinocchio and there was a layer of deceit beneath what we saw in the pilot and Gepetto and the Blue Fairy were actually lying? 

 

I too started being more interested in August with the episode where he goes to Gepetto's workshop and asks for a job.  At that point, I still expected Season 2 to be Cursed, and we would continue to see August and Gepetto build a bond together, and we would see more of the character development.  But we never did.  We never even got to see Gepetto properly reunite with a living August after he regained his memories.  It was in Season 2 when they really ruined August's character by shoe-horning him into the Neal plot and then having his final episode be all about Tamara.  In some ways, I think they got bored with his character and just didn't want to write for him anymore, similar to Neal.  If you're male and not a mega-villain and you're not in the main cast, you'll either be window-dressing, never seen again, or be utterly destroyed and leave the show with everyone hating you.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

If he didn't build the wardrobe, then no one would have escaped the Curse, and Blue knew that Emma must escape the curse or all is lost.

 

I can't believe that, in the entire Enchanted Forest, Geppetto was the only one who could cut out a wardrobe. Why didn't they just cut out a hole and stick Emma in it? Why did it need to be a fancy decorated wardrobe with pretty doors? They could have used the time they did putting the finishing touches on to haul pregnant Snow.

 

 

It is unfortunate, but I sort of understand why she did.

I don't really get why neither Blue nor Jiminy went to Snowing to tell them what Geppetto was doing. The writers really went out of their way to write it into a corner.

Edited September 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I too wasn't that convinced that only Gepetto could do the wardrobe in the entire kingdom.  But then again, he was also one of the few people who could make a wooden puppet which could be brought to life (I'm assuming that was a gift and not all puppets had that potential).  I agree it was weird that the wardrobe had be all nice, but it must have been a requirement, or we wouldn't have seen it.  

 

This reminds me of S3 when Glinda made it sound like Emma was the only person who had the Light Magic to defeat Zelena, as if there weren't any other Light Magic users in all the realms.  So it's a recurring motif in their writing that only one person has the ability even though it was highly unlikely.

 

The writers really went out of their way to write it into a corner.

 

The purpose was to surprise us with a hidden story behind the first one we saw.  I agree it wasn't convincing but the writers value a twist more than logic.

[KingOfHearts]

 

This reminds me of S3 when Glinda made it sound like Emma was the only person who had the Light Magic to defeat Zelena, as if there weren't any other Light Magic users in all the realms.  So it's a recurring motif in their writing that only one person has the ability even though it was highly unlikely.

 

There's also... "This is the last bean!" and "The Dark Curse is the only way to cross over!", "My happiness can only come from Henry!", which were all pretty much false.

Edited September 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It was more like they got a threat, spent eight months twiddling their thumbs, then said, "well, guess we have to cast the curse.

I was thinking that it would have been nice to see Snow, Charming, etc. taking the fight to Oz and trying to kill Zelena there in that Missing Year.  Then, it would be more like a continuous adventure.   

[Camera One]

I was thinking... at this point, who HASN'T offered to die for everyone else's sake.

[Shanna Marie]

There's also... "This is the last bean!" and "The Dark Curse is the only way to cross over!", "My happiness can only come from Henry!", which were all pretty much false.

That's similar to the way that these people tend to go for the nuclear option at first strike. Regina does at least get some credit for trying multiple ways of destroying Snow before she resorted to the curse, even if the curse is rather extreme compared to the wrong she thought she was avenging. But otherwise:

 

• Killian went straight from naval officer to pirate the moment his brother died because the king apparently lied about the secret mission they were on -- though we are missing some detail here about how quickly he went from throwing his uniform jacket overboard to being the full-fledged pirate we saw in "The Crocodile," and I suppose that if his king was the kind of person who'd send them to get a super-powerful poison and tell them it was a healing herb, it wasn't like they had the option of going back to HQ and saying, "Oops, the mission didn't work out." But surely there were some intermediate steps he could have taken, and given what he said to Emma about the way he reacted to his brother's death, he seems to realize that.
• Rumple remained focused on the curse, taking hundreds of years to pull it off, when it seems like there could have been other options for getting to his son. We know magical technology for locating people, even in other worlds, exists because we've seen him use it, and we know Bae spent most of the time in Neverland, which was reachable via magical means. Neal managed to locate Henry in Neverland and reach him in about 20 minutes. Hook's managed to get his hand on multiple magic beans and just blundered into Bae without even trying. Yet it took Rumple, an extremely powerful wizard whose ability to spin straw into gold gives him immense wealth, hundreds of years because he had to engineer the casting of a complex curse.
• Zelena thought that the only way to give herself what she wanted was to do complicated magic to travel back in time and replace her sister. She doesn't seem to have even tried taking over Oz and enjoying everything her sister had, just in another world. She could have lived in palaces, had pretty clothes and jewels, and all that without the effort.
• Regina's plan to have Henry to herself involved destroying all the magic beans and then using the failsafe to kill everyone while she and Henry escaped. Which was doomed to fail. Maybe she should have tried being nice first (of course, this show being what it is, undoing the attempt to kill everyone when she and Henry lost their escape route ended up gaining her hero status in Henry's eyes).
• The Charmings apparently went straight from realizing that Zelena was a threat to casting the Dark Curse, with no intermediate steps that we saw on screen.
• Neal's first strike in trying to get back to Henry was to revive the Dark One, in spite of being warned that it was a trap.

 

You know, the stuff with Neal would have made more sense if they'd moved it to later in the missing year. That way, there would have been a reason for waiting eight months before they thought of talking to Rumple (since he wouldn't have been there), and it would have made more sense that Snow and David named their son for him if they'd had more than a few minutes to really get to know him. Then the "he loved us/we loved him" stuff they said at the coronation ceremony for the baby might have been the truth. As it was, David and Snow barely knew Neal. If he'd been living among them for several months, at least, and working with them toward fighting Zelena, then I would have bought that they had that kind of relationship. And he'd have looked like less of an idiot if he'd tried to find other ways to get to Henry and this was a last resort.

[angelwoody]

 

You know, the stuff with Neal would have made more sense if they'd moved it to later in the missing year. That way, there would have been a reason for waiting eight months before they thought of talking to Rumple (since he wouldn't have been there), and it would have made more sense that Snow and David named their son for him if they'd had more than a few minutes to really get to know him. Then the "he loved us/we loved him" stuff they said at the coronation ceremony for the baby might have been the truth. As it was, David and Snow barely knew Neal. If he'd been living among them for several months, at least, and working with them toward fighting Zelena, then I would have bought that they had that kind of relationship. And he'd have looked like less of an idiot if he'd tried to find other ways to get to Henry and this was a last resort.

You know, I had never given that diner speech much thought (I was too busy trying NOT to hurl my TV out the window at the name reveal) but you are totally right. They really BARELY KNEW HIM.  

 

A little bit of time when he initially came to Storybrooke (did Snowing even interact with him?), a little bit of time in Neverland & on the Jolly Roger, and then he took off to Rumpel's castle as soon as they reached the EF.  He was basically a stranger, so even if their hearts were in the right place naming the baby after him (which I still think is awful considering his actions towards Emma) the "he loved us and we loved him" speech was absolute nonsense.  He barely knew any of them with the exception of Emma (who he abandoned), Rumpel (who he made his mission to avoid for hundreds of years) and Hook who he hated when they last saw each other and most recently had been vying for the same woman's attentions.  

 

Such crap writing! 

Edited September 22, 2014 by angelwoody

[Serena]

I forgot that he said "He loved us and we loved him". I just laughed out loud. Oh, show, you're so silly.

[Shanna Marie]

I've been trying to think of when David and Mary Margaret even interacted with Neal. I can't think of any scenes together in season 2 other than when they were all working together to save Rumple/kill Cora, and then I think they were off doing one thing while Emma and Neal were working together. Then in season 3, they rescued him in the cave, and immediately after that the group split up again. So there was whatever time they spent on the journey home on the Jolly Roger and whatever time they were hanging out upon the return home before they had to work together to beat Pan. And then after the curse reversal, he took off.

 

Of the remaining people in the diner when that "he loved all of us" speech was made, I guess Tink had whatever relationship she might have had in Neverland (which we never got to see), and he'd met Robin and Aurora during his time in the Enchanted Forest before he went to Neverland (though I don't think Robin was in the diner at that time). I don't think he'd interacted with anyone else other than Belle and Rumple. I do think there was eventually some mutual affection with Hook that must have developed during their time in Neverland (that we never got to see) because that hug at the hospital seemed pretty real, and even if the affection was lopsided, Hook was genuinely grieving his death, but Hook wasn't present for that speech. So the translation was "Most of us barely knew him, but he had sex with our daughter and was our grandson's babydaddy, and although he did a really dumbass thing that probably made this whole ordeal about a dozen times worse by allowing Zelena to have the power of the Dark One at her service, at least he kind of made up for it by getting out of the way so Rumple could warn us that the creepy stranger was the bad guy we were looking for."

[Serena]

I remember at the beginning of season 3, during one of the #askjosh sessions on Twitter, someone was like "What does Charming think of Neal?" and Josh answered "he really likes Neal!". Some CS shippers were kind of being mean, like "He's never talked to him in his life ever" but, you know... it's true.

[stealinghome]

Actually, that makes me laugh just because Josh sure never acted like Charming liked Neal. I remember several Daddy Charming side-eyes being shot in Nealfire's direction. I think he's figured out how to piss off shippers the least!

Edited September 22, 2014 by stealinghome

[Dani-Ellie]

The Daddy Charming side-eyes are my favorite thing, hee.

[Serena]

Actually, that makes me laugh just because Josh sure never acted like Charming liked Neal. I remember several Daddy Charming side-eyes being shot in Nealfire's direction. I think he's figured out how to piss off shippers the least!

Bonus points for pissing off both shippers groups (SF by doing the side-eyes, CS by saying he likes Neal) at the same time!

[Camera One]

You know, the stuff with Neal would have made more sense if they'd moved it to later in the missing year. That way, there would have been a reason for waiting eight months before they thought of talking to Rumple (since he wouldn't have been there), and it would have made more sense that Snow and David named their son for him if they'd had more than a few minutes to really get to know him. Then the "he loved us/we loved him" stuff they said at the coronation ceremony for the baby might have been the truth. As it was, David and Snow barely knew Neal. If he'd been living among them for several months, at least, and working with them toward fighting Zelena, then I would have bought that they had that kind of relationship. And he'd have looked like less of an idiot if he'd tried to find other ways to get to Henry and this was a last resort.

 

That would have been way better.  I know many people hated Neal, but if they're going to get rid of him, at least play out his potential and use him fully before they killed him off.  I liked the little that we saw with Neal and Belle working together, and it would have been nice to see some of that with Snow/Charming, and Hook.  It would also have allowed a more coherent storyline in the missing year, where everyone exhausted every avenue to defeat Zelena before resorting to the Dark Curse.  It really showed that the writers simply had no interest on him as a character.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

It really showed that the writers simply had no interest on him as a character.

 

That is the key, IMO. They didn't even bother to show him for more than a few moments in one episode, and then nothing until his death episode. 

Edited September 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[angelwoody]

The worst part about Neal, from the story perspective, is that so much of the mythology of the show was centered around him and then when he finally got with Emma, Rumpel, etc., it was .... Nothing really. They just killed him off.

[Rumsy4]

The worst part about Neal, from the story perspective, is that so much of the mythology of the show was centered around him and then when he finally got with Emma, Rumpel, etc., it was .... Nothing really. They just killed him off.

 

I agree. Rotten shame. I think I would have liked Neal way better if 1. they had shown how Bae turned into Neal (in Neverland or the Real World), and 2. they didn't keep insisting until the end he had no choice but to abandon Emma. At least they could have shown him doing something with the core cast in the missing year! Instead, they had to write three Zelena backstory episodes in 3B. But then, they have only given the supposed main character of the show, Emma, one full backstory episode. So, could we really expect anything else from Adam and Eddy? When people keep wondering how much fans influence their writing, I feel--not much. Adam and Eddy literally are telling the story they want to tell. Too bad that always seems to center around Regina, one way or the other! That's why the pacing and narrative are so imbalanced. :-p

[Jean]

I think Neal is a classic case of buyer's remorse. They should've kept Neal as a series ender. Because it's clear now that without Neal as his quest, Rumple is left hanging in the wind. I also don't think they had any plans for him beyond that scene in Manhattan when Rumple, Emma, and Neal all realized the truth. That was Neal's entire purpose. They wanted that scene, that's it. They didn't want a real story.

 

I also think they realized pretty early on, that the Neal character was a mistake and maybe that's not how they wanted to do Bae after all. There's no other reason why Rumple and Neal shared nothing after Miller's Daughter. You can't even blame it on Emma either, cause they didn't share all that much in S2. And if they wanted to keep him, they would've played up the Henry/Woegina angle. I knew the guy was a goner at the end of S2 even if he did have a "fake" death already.

 

 

is that so much of the mythology of the show was centered around him

 

Well it was S1's mythology but it's quite clear that S1 is entirely distinct and disconnected from what came after. The "mythology" of the show is not based around Bae and Rumple any longer. It's now based around Woegina's ascension to heaven.

 

 

It really showed that the writers simply had no interest on him as a character.

To be fair I don't think A&E have any interest in any character except 1 and 3 guesses as to who that is. And the first 2 don't count.

[Camera One]

I think they had even less interest in him because he was from "our world".  He was too ordinary and therefore boring.  It's similar to how they don't like exploring Emma's past.

 

 

I also don't think they had any plans for him beyond that scene in Manhattan when Rumple, Emma, and Neal all realized the truth. That was Neal's entire purpose.

 

That is so true.  They introduce the guy and then proceed to have him standing around like an extra in the background for the next few episodes.  Even Granny and Red got a centric before being forced into babysitting duties.  They didn't bother to explore the *natural* conflicts that Neal would have had in Storybrooke.  Confronting his Enchanted Forest origins, no longer being able to run from his father, having to face Emma after what he did, learning to be a father with Henry, etc.  Heck, he hardly even had a scene with Regina, who should have been hella antagonistic.  

Edited September 23, 2014 by Camera One