Past Seasons: Classic Who

[benteen]

I finally got around to watching Remembrance of the Daleks and it is as good as people say.  I really enjoyed it.  After watching Dragonfire, the change in tone between the two stories if very noticeable, especially with McCoy's Doctor.  Love Ace, who is already amongst my three favorite companions of the Classic Era.  Add a strong supporting cast and story (not to mention all the meta-references), Remembrance is definitely a classic.

 

I want to read the novelization of ROTD at some point myself.  I've heard it's a classic too which greatly expands the story.  It was re-released as part of the 50th anniversary last year representing the Seventh Doctor, that's how highly regarded it is.

[Llywela]

I have really vivid memories of watching Remembrance of the Daleks when it came on the telly when I was a child - Ace made a big impression on 11-year-old me!

[tv-talk]

I will have to check that out! Don't have fond memories of the Mccoy era, kind of gave up on show at that time which apparently so did many others. Always up for revisiting a classic Doctor though, almost always like them better in hindsight. 

 

Speaking of novelizations...I've never read any? Are there some that are actually quality sci-fi as opposed to just enjoyable because we're Doctor fans? Any recs for someone who is a Tom Baker fan and thinks Pertwee thru Colin Baker will always be the Golden Era of the series?

[HauntedBathroom]

The bulk of the novelisations are pretty straightforward transpositions from the script to the page. I have a particular fondness for the novelisation of The War Ganes, in which Terrance Dicks turns a 10 episode story into the standard 144 page length. Towards the end of the run, the book range made an effort to get the writers of the original script to write the book, which did lead to a more sympathetic treatment of the work, and an attempt by the author to show the things that he had envisioned, but wasn't able to do on a BBC budget.

 

But no, I don't think any of them could be considered a good read on their own merits, if you didn't already have a love of the programme.

[benteen]

Ian Marter wrote quite a few of the novelizations.

 

I have heard Remembrance though is a really god one.

[Joe]

Battlefield is another good one. I've read that several times, it still holds up.

[benteen]

Yeah, I've heard that really does great stuff with the battle scenes, which were limited by the budget back then.

[Joe]

It's not just the battles, there are a few scenes that aren't on the screen. Also, it goes into the heads of and fleshes out some of the minor characters. Good stuff.

[Llywela]

I'm in the middle of a marathon read-through of all the novelisations, having acquired PDF versions of them all. Just reached the 4th Doctor era. The quality varies enormously from book to book,depending on all kinds of variables (including whether or not the writer had ever actually been able to see the original, since they weren't available in any format at the time and some no longer exist). Some are woefully pedestrian, others do a great job of fleshing out the original script for a new medium. The Crusade is one of my favourites - it reads beautifully. David Whitaker novelised his own original script and did a fantastic job (such an Ian/Barbara shipper!). And I thought the novelisation of the Daleks' Master Plan (split into two sequential novels rather than just one,because of length) was excellent. Ian Marter did a great job with The Ark in Space, really drawing out the body horror. Trying to remember if any others stood out...

Edited November 16, 2014 by Llywela

[benteen]

I read the one for The Tenth Planet, the last of the William Hartnell stories.  That one was more of a straightforward adaptation and runs into the same problem the serial had.  Spending way too much time on the boring astronaut subplot.  It DOES feature a much different regeneration scene though.

[tv-talk]

Thanks for the suggestions! Just ordered paperback copy of The Ark In Space, love the idea it was written by Harry.

[benteen]

I think Ian Marter wrote about nine of them, including one of the few original novels of that time called "Harry Sullivan's War."  I recently found his adaptation of The Enemy of the World (a GREAT serial btw) and I hear it's different than the aired product.

[SnideAsides]

Finished off season one with The Reign of Terror and started season two with Planet of Giants. It was nice to see them finally get out of the studio for a bit in the former (even if only with body doubles), and it helps that it was a pretty decent, comparatively fast-paced story to boot. I'm keeping a running best-to-worst ranking as I go, and Reign of Terror is third at the moment, which seems like it might be a little high for what it is? I don't know.

 

On the other hand, "the incredible shrinking cast" is one of my least favourite sci-fi tropes, but this was still about as good as such an episode could be. I think we're finally getting to the point where it feels like Who proper.

[Llywela]

I think Ian Marter wrote about nine of them, including one of the few original novels of that time called "Harry Sullivan's War."  I recently found his adaptation of The Enemy of the World (a GREAT serial btw) and I hear it's different than the aired product.

It's a bit different, yes - of course, he'd have had no way of actually watching the televised episodes to write the book, as they were lost until only last year. When he novelised The Invasion, someone (I think it might even have been a fan) loaned him videotapes of the surviving episodes and he had a big viewing marathon with Nicholas Courtney, who'd never actually seen the story before despite being in it. They were great friends, and in the book Marter named the unnamed Russian military base after Courtney - he called it Nikortny. Marter was particularly good at fleshing out two-part stories to give them more length and detail for novelisation - he did it with The Sontaran Experiment and The Rescue, which was the book he was working on when he died, his first draft manuscript finished off by the editor for publication.

Finished off season one with The Reign of Terror and started season two with Planet of Giants. It was nice to see them finally get out of the studio for a bit in the former (even if only with body doubles), and it helps that it was a pretty decent, comparatively fast-paced story to boot. I'm keeping a running best-to-worst ranking as I go, and Reign of Terror is third at the moment, which seems like it might be a little high for what it is? I don't know.

 

On the other hand, "the incredible shrinking cast" is one of my least favourite sci-fi tropes, but this was still about as good as such an episode could be. I think we're finally getting to the point where it feels like Who proper.

Hehe, 'miniaturised case' might be a sci fi staple, but this is a fun take on it, no? The sets and props look fantastic, considering it was made on a budget of about 50p. The plot goes a little wonky in places, as it was originally four episodes edited down to three, but it works okay. Reign of Terror is one of my favourites - I just wish the episode with Ian in bondage till existed! It's another of the stories novelised by Ian Marter, incidentally.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Llywela

[benteen]

I enjoyed Planet of Giants.  I agree it was nice to see them get out of the studio and the props/effects are very impressive for the show given that shoestring budget they often operated under.

 

Planet of Giants has an interesting history.  It was very nearly the first ever Doctor Who serial.  I'm glad it wasn't as it wouldn't have been a proper representative of the show and it was something that needed to be done when the characters were more established.  It was also supposed to be a four-part serial but the Head of Series didn't think the four-parter was working so he ordered episode 3 and 4 to be spliced together.  It REALLY shows in the final part and effects the end of the serial.  Stupid studio interference.  The original version of episode 3 and 4 of Planet of the Giants have been lost but on the DVD, they did a recreation featuring William Russell and Carole Ann Ford.  It also featured a voice actor named John Guilor as The First Doctor and he does a GREAT William Hartnell.  Guilor can briefly be heard as The First Doctor in The Day of the Doctor.

 

Since Doctor Who was one episode short for their second season because of this, a one-off prelude was added for the following season (featuring none of the regular cast and the only episode of Who not to feature The Doctor) called Mission to the Unknown.  That was the prelude to The Daleks Master Plan.

[Llywela]

I really enjoy the way Mission to the Unknown and The Daleks' Master Plan play out - our heroes carrying on with our adventures while this terrible plot begins to unfold elsewhere in the galaxy and only stumbling into it later. There are so many twists and turns along the way once we get into the epic itself, it's a concept I could see being adapted as a modern story arc fairly easily.

[SnideAsides]

I'd enjoy The Dalek Invasion of Earth much more if the big story behind the plot wasn't basically just "women can help by making the men lunch". Still, probably one of my favorites so far? I am not a crackpot.

[Llywela]

I'd enjoy The Dalek Invasion of Earth much more if the big story behind the plot wasn't basically just "women can help by making the men lunch". Still, probably one of my favorites so far? I am not a crackpot.

I'm sorry, but how is the entire six-episode plot 'women can help by making the men lunch'? Sure, Barbara is asked if she can cook when she and Susan are taken in by the resistance, but that's one small moment in a six-episode adventure, in which women are shown fighting alongside the men in the resistance, Barbara is the one who figures out how the Daleks can be tricked into allowing rebels near enough to attack, Barbara and Susan both play an active part in that attack, Barbara and the rebel Jenny team up to make a difficult and dangerous cross-country journey (without any male assistance), Barbara drives a lorry through a line of Daleks, Barbara figures out how the robo-slaves are controlled and fools the Daleks into taking her to the control room where she stages a diversion for a failed sabotage attempt, Barbara uses those controls to give the order for the Robomen to turn on the Daleks, thus saving everyone (the Doctor didn't know how to do it)...and so on. Women may be outnumbered by men in the story (often still true of episodes made today) but they are shown to be active and intelligent, playing just as big a part in saving the day as the men. So how exactly does all that boil down to 'women can help by making the men lunch'?

 

The '60s have a bad enough name as it is, largely because they are so often misrepresented like that, one negative moment taken to represent the whole, with all the positives completely ignored as if they weren't even seen. This is exactly how the collective memory of fandom has become so warped.

 

Just because Barbara is asked if she can cook, by a flea-bitten band of rebels who require everyone they take in to be useful, does that mean you/other viewers don't even see all the badass things she actually does in the story? The plot of this story revolves around human resilience in the face of alien conquest, and every cast member has a big part to play in that. It has nothing to do with cooking, whether by men or women.

 

In The Christmas Invasion, Jackie cooks Christmas dinner and invites the Doctor and Mickey. Doesn't make the story sexist, doesn't make it a plot about women cooking for men.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Llywela

[SnideAsides]

In my defence, I may have been a little drunk/distracted while watching.

[Sandman87]

Now that I've had a chance to see her in her full glory for a season or two, I've concluded that Jo Grant is friggin' annoying. Shrill, "a bit thick" (as some Doctors might put it), incapable of following simple instructions much of the time, and a fashion victim. And if I have to hear her insist "I did see it/him/her! I really did!" one more time, I'm going to punch my TV.

[Llywela]

I think Jo's great - not the brightest, sure, but she has other qualities to recommend her. But I just came off one rant in this thread, so won't get into another!

[HauntedBathroom]

Yeah, Jo's terrible. And she's got the worst scream, it's painful to hear it.

[Llywela]

If you think Jo has a terrible scream, you must not have encountered Mel yet...

 

Jo is fab, end of story. She's fluffy and ditzy but she has a heart of gold, and she saves the Doctor's bacon as often as he saves hers. She may not be bright, but she has plenty of fire and determination - she knows what she wants and she goes for it. She learns a lot during her time with the Doctor - for example, the Master hypnotises her once and she makes damn she he'll never do it again by learning how to resist and then putting that training into action next time he tries it, much to his frustration. She's a bit of a klutz, and likely to put a foot wrong at a crucial time, but she accepts responsibility for her own mess-ups, and tries to do better the next time, and is every bit as resourceful as she is clumsy. She's good with people - she's cute and she knows it and uses it to wrap men around her little finger. She refuses to allow others to limit her, based on the assumption that she is incapable or too young or vulnerable to be put in action. And she leaves the Doctor as much to pursue her own interests as to marry some other bloke - the Doctor taught her to care about bigger issues, saving worlds, and she looked around at her own world and saw that it needed saving in ways other than foiling alien invasions, and decided to do that instead. Good for her.

 

I love Jo. And not just because she has the same name as me!

Edited November 25, 2014 by Llywela

[Joe]

Yes, I agree. Jo is great. Maybe the name does have something to do with it.

[benteen]

I liked Jo in the episodes I saw her in though I liked Liz Shaw and especially Sarah Jane much better.  I did love Jo's return to the Whoverse in The Sarah Jane Adventures though.

[Sandman87]

Oh good gravy, Retro just showed the last Jo episode tonight. She falls in love with an obviously Married To His Work environmentalist who alternates between ignoring her and being irritated at her for not being a genius like him, and then he neglects to even ask her before he decides that they're getting married. Hey her name is "Grant", so it must be acceptable to take her for Grant-ed, right? Yeah, that's a marriage that's going to last. For about six months. So yeah, good for her, I guess.

[Llywela]

Well, according to the Sarah Jane Adventures, Jo's marriage is still going strong today, seven children and goodness knows how many great-grandchildren later - RTD set her up as a contrast to his vision of the older Sarah.

 

As for her actual departure, '70s Who was lousy at even attempting to write anything like romance, so it's a good thing it wasn't attempted often. Jo's relationship with Cliff is intended to parallel her relationship with the Doctor, who is also high-handed, distracted and irritable. She's basically found herself an attainable version of him. And it is very clumsily written. But her exit from the show is set up from the first episode of the serial and she'd decided on it before she gets engaged to Cliff - she's discovered causes on Earth worth supporting and fighting for, and wants to devote herself to that. Like I said, she's taking the confidence and interest in larger issues that she's learned during her time with the Doctor and applying them in a different direction - she's grown away from him and is ready to strike out on her own.

 

But if you don't like her, nothing I say will change that. I know no one could change my mind about Clara!

[HauntedBathroom]

So yeah, good for her, I guess.

To be honest, anything that gets the gooning chump off my screen ASAP is good for me. Don't let the door hit you in the arse, Katy.

[Sandman87]

Forgot to mention: My favorite part of the serial was when the Doctor administered an antibiotic to slow down the deadly green disease...which had previously been described as a virus. Viruses aren't affected by antibiotics.

[Llywela]

Dodgy science is a staple of Doctor Who, right up to the present day - just this last season was littered with it. I suppose what matters is how much you care about the science in comparison with the rest of a story, whether or not the characters and their experiences engage your interest and empathy enough to overlook the flaws. We all draw that line in different places. The Third Doctor and Jo don't do it for you, but they do for me. Perhaps Clara and the 12th Doctor do it for you, but don't for me. Horses for courses!

[proserpina65]

If you think Jo has a terrible scream, you must not have encountered Mel yet...

 

Yeah, Mel has the worst scream ever.  Of course, she also has a pretty annoying voice too, and her character is so underwritten that it's practically criminal.

 

Jo Grant, for me, is okay but nothing special in the pantheon of the Doctor's companions.  She probably suffers in comparison by being between Liz Shaw and Sarah Jane Smith, two intelligent, practical career woman, but I find Jo's dim ditziness tolerable enough and occasionally somewhat endearing.  (Leela would kick all their asses without even having to try.)  She's in my top 20, companion-wise and #13 out of all the female companions, but that's because the ones below her, imo, are either borderline annoying, barely there, or outright insufferable.  I will confess that the Third Doctor's episodes, for the most part, are not among my favorites.

[benteen]

The Green Death is an interesting one.  It starts out like it's going to be this big environment issue episode and then moves to big green slugs and a hilarious supercomputer.  I'm annoyed to that Jones decided that he was going to marry Jo without even asking her but I will say that Jo's good-bye to the Doctor and his reaction to it is a really well-done, emotional scene.

 

Interestingly enough, Katy Manning was dating the actor who played Professor Jones at the time and I believe they were engaged at one point.  I read somewhere that she didn't like the idea that Jo ended up with him.

[Llywela]

Speaking of Jo Grant, let me refer you to this post here, part of the 'Why I Like Doctor Who' project on Tumblr, which pretty much sums up everything I enjoy about Jo and details why she is so much more than she seems, at first glance.

[benteen]

I guess I assumed that the novelizations were like the Star Trek ones, with nothing much else to add.  I did like the one where the Doctor met Leela, though. (The Face of Evil)

 

Just reading through an older post, when you refer to the Star Trek novelizations, you don't mean the movie adaptations, do you?  Because the first seven Star Trek movie novelizations are anything but ordinary adaptations.  They greatly expand the movies, adding subplots and characters and GREATLY expanding the scope of the films.  Some characters who aren't in the movies are in the novelizations and you see stuff you never saw in the movies.  Take Carol Marcus...you never see her again after Star Trek II but she's in four of the later novelizations, having her own subplot.  We see stuff like Khan's rampage on the Regula I Space Station, an expanded relationship between Saavik and David, even Kirk's final moments on the Enterprise.  In the novelization of Star Trek III The Search for Spock, the on-screen stuff doesn't even begin until page 82.  The first seven novelizations (okay, I never read the one for The Final Frontier) were easily some of the best I ever read and greatly expanded the story.  It wasn't until Star Trek First Contact that they became your standard, by-the-numbers adaptation.

 

Anyway, sorry to get off-track.  I wanted to post that I had just finished Battlefield and I thought that was a GREAT serial.  The return of the Brigadier, Jean Marsh, the new Brigadier, knights, Merlin, a lot of action...just epic stuff.  Up next for me is Ghost Light.

Edited December 1, 2014 by benteen

[Joe]

Ah, Ghost Light. I had no idea what was going on, until I read something explaining it. It's actually a good story, just told in an incomprehensible way.

[tessaray]

 

Just reading through an older post, when you refer to the Star Trek novelizations, you don't mean the movie adaptations, do you?

The James Blish ones, not the movie ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_%28Blish%29 

 

And I love Jo Grant.  

[benteen]

The James Blish ones, not the movie ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_%28Blish%29 

 

And I love Jo Grant.  

 

Ah.  I never knew they did novelizations of the original Star Trek episodes.  Thanks for the info.

 

Back to the unrelated point, if anyone can find those first seven Star Trek novelizations (probably out of print now) I would definitely recommend them.

[tessaray]

 

Back to the unrelated point, if anyone can find those first seven Star Trek novelizations (probably out of print now) I would definitely recommend them.

 

I actually have several of them (and read them all back in the day) and I agree, they are pretty good.  I remember the good old days of haunting the bookstore every month waiting for the new Trek novels to appear. (circa 1980s).  I envy the British fans, who had the same experience with Doctor Who.

[Llywela]

Anyway, sorry to get off-track.  I wanted to post that I had just finished Battlefield and I thought that was a GREAT serial.  The return of the Brigadier, Jean Marsh, the new Brigadier, knights, Merlin, a lot of action...just epic stuff.  Up next for me is Ghost Light.

Battlefield is fab, in so very many ways. I'd totally have watched a spin-off featuring Winifred Bambera and Ancelyn = A Brigadier and Her Knight!

 

Ah, Ghost Light. I had no idea what was going on, until I read something explaining it. It's actually a good story, just told in an incomprehensible way.

I see a lot of people saying they don't understand Ghost Light, but it's always made sense to me. Maybe it makes a difference that the novelisation came out within a year of it being on telly so I grew up reading that - it does explain a lot!

[Joe]

I see a lot of people saying they don't understand Ghost Light, but it's always made sense to me. Maybe it makes a difference that the novelisation came out within a year of it being on telly so I grew up reading that - it does explain a lot!

Yep, that'll do it. Sadly I had no such luxury. :(

[SnideAsides]

The Rescue... boy, I don't know. I want to like it, and it's short enough that it shouldn't feel very tedious, but I'm kind of sick of "group members travel through a cave" episodes. And Vicki already seems even worse than Susan ever was. On the plus side, Barbara is delightful in every scene she's in. I'm sure most of it's just Jacqueline Hill's acting - I don't feel the same way about Ian, which may be related to William Russell not being a particularly great actor - but it's nice to see the show getting something so right so early on. And that cliffhanger, with the TARDIS falling off a cliff? Amazing.

[Llywela]

What don't you like about Vicki? She's prickly and defensive at times in this story, but that's understandable given her situation - she's a young girl in her mid-teens, she was on a spaceship that crashed, her father and the rest of the crew were horribly murdered and she's been living in fear ever since, having to cope by herself, caring for this one other survivor, who is surly and controlling, always hoping for rescue yet dreading that it won't arrive in time. When the TARDIS crew turn up, she's torn between delight at finally having support and salvation, and resentment at having all these strangers show up and take over, which makes her feel as if she wasn't good enough to manage on her own. It may not be 'action hero' stuff, but it's very believable, realistic characterisation. We're also shown that she is a lively, playful girl by nature with a warm, generous heart - she's made a pet of monstrous-looking creature, which tells us she sees beyond the surface to the nature that lies behind, she doesn't hesitate to save Barbara after her fall, which involves great physical exertion on her part as well as perceived danger, as she is terrified that Koquillion will attack her if she ventures away from her crashed ship.

 

Hopefully you'll come to appreciate Vicki more once you've seen more of her stories. She may fill the same basic role in the cast as Susan, but personality-wise they are chalk and cheese, completely different.

 

Also, William Russell 'not a particularly great actor'? Wash your mouth out with soap!

[benteen]

Battlefield is fab, in so very many ways. I'd totally have watched a spin-off featuring Winifred Bambera and Ancelyn = A Brigadier and Her Knight!

 

I see a lot of people saying they don't understand Ghost Light, but it's always made sense to me. Maybe it makes a difference that the novelisation came out within a year of it being on telly so I grew up reading that - it does explain a lot!

 

Winifred was a lot of fun and so was Ancelyn.  She was slated to come back in Season 27 but that obviously didn't come to pass.  She did return though when Big Finish did their Lost Series of stories from that season.

[proserpina65]

"Also, William Russell 'not a particularly great actor'? Wash your mouth out with soap!"

 

Preferably Life Buoy.

Edited December 1, 2014 by proserpina65

[SnideAsides]

I have a very low tolerance for shrieking. (And yet, oddly, I quite like Mel.)

On the other hand, William Russell has kind of a sitcommy cheeriness about him most of the time, which I just can't get on board with. I'm sad he and Barbara will eventually leave at the same time, because I adore Barbara but I could take or leave Ian.

 

Edit: Got The Romans done while my wifi was being a bit clunky. Visually impressive, but I'm with Vicki in that not a lot happened. On the plus side, I think it contained the first time Hartnell got Ian's name wrong, so at least I've reached that point in the show's history. But up next: the Zarbi. Oh, boy.

[Llywela]

What shrieking? Vicki doesn't scream very often.

 

I really enjoy The Romans - it's an odd one, tonally, as Ian and Barbara's sub-plots are really quite dark, yet the overall tone of the story is light-hearted, but it's loads of fun. As for not much happening, I suppose that depends what you class as 'action'. There's never any world-endangering peril in First Doctor historicals, that's not what they are about. The point of them is to show the Doctor and his companions engaging with life in another era, which can be every bit as alien and dangerous as a distant planet - I really appreciate the smaller-scale, more intimate storytelling. And if you asked Ian or Barbara what happened during their time in ancient Rome, they'd have plenty to tell you! The Doctor and Vicki have a quieter time of it, to be sure, but they enjoy themselves enormously once they reach Rome and start hob-nobbing with Nero.

[proserpina65]

I really enjoy The Romans - it's an odd one, tonally, as Ian and Barbara's sub-plots are really quite dark, yet the overall tone of the story is light-hearted, but it's loads of fun.

 

The Romans is actually my favorite story of all the First Doctor ones I've seen.  (N.B. I haven't seen any of the previously missing/reconstructed ones, just the episodes shown on PBS.)  Then again, I will confess to be inordinately fond of watching Ian in a toga . . .

[Llywela]

Then again, I will confess to be inordinately fond of watching Ian in a toga . . .

I must confess to the very same fondness! He does flash his legs rather a lot in this one. And I'm also rather partial to stubbly, desperate, shipwrecked Ian!

 

I think Ian is great in general. I suppose I can see what SnideAsides means, but that's the character. He's the action hero of the team, but he's also a ginormous dork. He sees himself as the protector of the group, will take on all comers, but he does it all in smart suits and granddad cardigans. He's a science teacher approaching middle age, level-headed and full of easy-going humour. Plop him down in ancient Rome and he'll dress up in a toga and wander around quoting Julius Caesar. Give him a sword and a knighthood and he'll sally forth to save his friend without hesitation. He's got a lot of elements to his personality! And that's why I love him.

 

It's also interesting to see the way his and Barbara's stories play out, because while Barbara is running around being fabulous in her own right, Ian's story is always focused on her - which is a bit of a reversal of what you might expect, which is for the woman's story to revolve around the man. Barbara has a few flirtations along the way, but Ian never takes his eyes off her.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Llywela

[proserpina65]

It's also interesting to see the way his and Barbara's stories play out, because while Barbara is running around being fabulous in her own right, Ian's story is always focused on her - which is a bit of a reversal of what you might expect, which is for the woman's story to revolve around the man. Barbara has a few flirtations along the way, but Ian never takes his eyes off her.

 

I always liked that Barbara was the more dominant of the two, but that Ian seemed to know what he wanted and was willing to wait for her.  I rather suspect that had the Doctor never showed up in their lives, Ian might've been waiting a loooong time for Barbara.

[benteen]

There was a comic strip in Doctor Who Magazine (now in collected form and one I still have to read) that showed 11 reuniting with Ian and Barbara, ending with the two of them getting married.

 

I liked Ian in The Aztecs, where he was a legit badass in that one.