S03.E18: Part 18

[PatternRec]

3 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

The hallmark of good writing is some form of clarity.

That statement is somewhat limiting. I agree with you 100% that a writer has to have some mastery of form, things like the ability to understand characters, motivations and plot, but in any field there are those who choose to "paint outside the lines." Like @Nashville above says, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I tend to like the experimental stuff, but I try to respect the opinions of anyone who doesn't because I know it's weird stuff. 

[kokapetl]

Effective communication with the viewer is very important. If the viewer can't understand what's happening onscreen, the author is not communicating with them. TV producers are telling stories to an audience of viewers. Why bother filming and airing shows that can't or won't communicate?

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Effective communication with the viewer is very important. If the viewer can't understand what's happening onscreen, the author is not communicating with them. TV producers are telling stories to an audience of viewers. Why bother filming and airing shows that can't or won't communicate?

Think of it as a Chinese tv show when you dont speak Chinese. 

[Jalyn]

I think that there is a difference between not being able to communicate an idea clearly and making an artistic choice to obscure the message. The first is necessarily bad writing while the second can be done well - though it will be polarizing in audience reaction. 

I personally think that Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury is brilliant but that James Joyce is unreadable and lacks an actual story. Some people think that Faulkner is unreadable and other's that Joyce is fascinating. While I think that those that don't see the brilliance of the first are missing a wonderful story, I'm still not willing to put in the work to try to understand Joyce, no matter how many people tell me that it's worth it. I suppose that there is a scale of how much people are willing to put into a story  in order to interpret it. Everyone's different. 

[nkotb]

On 9/6/2017 at 10:44 AM, Pete Martell said:

For me the main movie he made that felt deliberately incoherent was Inland Empire, which felt like scattered images and I had a hard time getting through. A lot of this season has felt like scattered images as well, I just ended up being drawn into most of them. There were also themes alongside images, some more coherent than others. It sounds very pretentious when I type it out - I guess it's more about what I feel when watching it than how it sounds when I write it down. 

I think my main takeaway was that the season was about accepting what you are and trying not to look back. And not mourning for a world that never existed or only exists now because you need it. Given our current climate that was more potent to me than it might have been in the past. Sometimes I wonder if this show had come out in 2013 or 2014 would I have as generous a reaction. I'm not sure. But I was able to accept most of this and appreciate it - in some way I felt like I sort of needed it.

I saw a TV critic saying that if this didn't have Lynch's name attached people would call it a shitpile. That may be true, but I think it also overinflates how much people will tolerate inscrutable woo-woo type stuff. I think there was some sort of unique power in a lot of what this season tried to do, even as I wish some things had been done differently. Not so much the floor-sweeping or filler moments as things that now feel like a slog since they had no real payoff - all the time on Richard, or on Matthew Lillard wailing, et al. I guess it was on me for being lulled into thinking there would be a payoff. I'm willing to handwave it for the most part, but the Audrey stuff I do hope we get resolution for in some form. I'd say Becky as well but if she was killed off I'd rather not know.

This was simultaneously one of the most brutal and unforgiving TV seasons (or revivals) I've ever seen and in some other way one of the most beautiful. I can't really elaborate why I feel that way - I just feel sort of empty now that it's over. 

I read this yesterday, & then thought about it all night last night. You know what, you're (&/or the TV reviewer) probably correct. I like Lynch a lot, but in thinking about whether I'd give that same level of latitude I gave the finale (I seriously have barely stopped thinking about it, or reading theories on it) to just a random director/writer/creator/show czar, I don't think I would have. The finale was not my favorite, at all, however, I liked enough of it to halfway say that I liked it. But, if it wasn't Lynch, I think I would've been more furious at the dropped storylines, the fact that there were 18 episodes to truly tell us how the characters end up, & really, the only definitive ending we can guess is Norma & Ed live happily-ever-after, & allllllllllll of the 214 actors & characters on the show. 

Very good quote, thanks for posting. I actually thought this all night, but I'm a nerd, so there's that.

[PatternRec]

6 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Effective communication with the viewer is very important. If the viewer can't understand what's happening onscreen, the author is not communicating with them. TV producers are telling stories to an audience of viewers. Why bother filming and airing shows that can't or won't communicate?

If your interest in creating TV is to engage as large an audience as possible and get renewed for another season, then effective communication is important, as are other things. For economic reasons and for the enjoyment of the audience most TV is like this, and rightly so, but there should always be room for experimentation. As @Jalyn said more eloquently than me "there's a difference between not being able to communicate an idea clearly and making an artistic choice to obscure the message."

51 minutes ago, Jalyn said:

I personally think that Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury is brilliant but that James Joyce is unreadable and lacks an actual story. Some people think that Faulkner is unreadable and other's that Joyce is fascinating. While I think that those that don't see the brilliance of the first are missing a wonderful story, I'm still not willing to put in the work to try to understand Joyce, no matter how many people tell me that it's worth it. I suppose that there is a scale of how much people are willing to put into a story  in order to interpret it. Everyone's different. 

The Sound and The Fury was very easy to follow, I've found. Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Men and Dubliners are both very linear, but I couldn't make it through Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake. I'd add Thomas Pynchon to this pile of writers too. The Crying of Lot 49 was straightforward but it took me years to get through the first 200 pages of Gravity's Rainbow before finally calling an artistic mulligan and giving up :D 

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, nkotb said:

I read this yesterday, & then thought about it all night last night. You know what, you're (&/or the TV reviewer) probably correct. I like Lynch a lot, but in thinking about whether I'd give that same level of latitude I gave the finale (I seriously have barely stopped thinking about it, or reading theories on it) to just a random director/writer/creator/show czar, I don't think I would have. The finale was not my favorite, at all, however, I liked enough of it to halfway say that I liked it. But, if it wasn't Lynch, I think I would've been more furious at the dropped storylines, the fact that there were 18 episodes to truly tell us how the characters end up, & really, the only definitive ending we can guess is Norma & Ed live happily-ever-after, & allllllllllll of the 214 actors & characters on the show. 

Very good quote, thanks for posting. I actually thought this all night, but I'm a nerd, so there's that.

I think we do know what happened in most of the dropped storylines, it just takes a while to work through the stages of grief to acceptance. Audrey is ready to start healing, I enjoyed watching the guy sweep, Richard was what happens when evil is allowed access to the world, I guess, and James now has a friend. Cooper is a legend. Harry learns about the story from Frank. Lucy is better now. Becky and Stephen are dead and this may bring Bobby and Shelley back together.

Also have they all reverted to how they would have been if none of this had happened? Is that the fourth season?

[uoflfan]

Sheryl Lee is still a great screamer and I loved seeing her again in the finale.  There were just so many loose ends - typical David Lynch.

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, PatternRec said:

If your interest in creating TV is to engage as large an audience as possible and get renewed for another season, then effective communication is important, as are other things. For economic reasons and for the enjoyment of the audience most TV is like this, and rightly so, but there should always be room for experimentation. As @Jalyn said more eloquently than me "there's a difference between not being able to communicate an idea clearly and making an artistic choice to obscure the message."

The Sound and The Fury was very easy to follow, I've found. Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Men and Dubliners are both very linear, but I couldn't make it through Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake. I'd add Thomas Pynchon to this pile of writers too. The Crying of Lot 49 was straightforward but it took me years to get through the first 200 pages of Gravity's Rainbow before finally calling an artistic mulligan and giving up :D 

Just thinking that Finnegan's wake is not unlike The Return, it has (if I remember it from being a teenager) a dreamlike quality, clear when you are in it and rapidly fading when you wake up or get a snack or whatever. The first time I watched episodes of The Return  I'd get totally invested in some part and then totally forget it when I was drawn into the next part of the show.

I once was thrown off a christmas flight at o'hare and ended up in the Detroit bus station standing for hours waiting to be called for a bus to complete my trip. I didn't urinate for 18 hours for fear of losing my place in line and the only thing I had to read was Faulkner's novels. I've never felt like rereading him.

Enjoy Pynchon, though.

It doesn't even have to be obscuring the message, it can be teasing with the message, dancing around the messaging, making a mystery of the message.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Affogato

[jsbt]

All I know is I can't get 18 out of my head, and it was pretty scarring on a first view - like Mulholland Drive or Lost Highway, I loved it but definitely wanted to get away from it for awhile and breathe, it was so oppressively ominous. And like those I am now dying to watch it again, but having to prepare myself.

Based on a few tidbits I had a good idea of some of what was coming (Cooper finding Carrie, a return to the Palmer house) but I had no idea how those elements would play, the context or how we got there. I had expected a triumphant Lynch happy ending, Laura vs. Judy, which he has actually done in stuff like Inland Empire or Blue Velvet - I thought he'd want that for all the characters as he and Frost had talked a lot over the years about giving the story closure, which they'd not been happy it hadn't had since Season 2, and I know how deeply he cares for Laura, Cooper, etc. So I just hadn't factored in his more recent preference (IE notwithstanding) to pull out the rug and go even deeper into darkness. I should've seen it coming, especially since I'd also been hearing he wanted to continue the show once filming neared a close, and I still think he intends to. (I think they also may have filmed more pivotal stuff with Audrey and not aired it, but I am not 100% sure - when that didn't happen, I became convinced he was withholding it for a reason.)

It's just a fascinating hour in and of itself. There's so much to unpack, and it shifts the whole paradigm. I love 17 for its wild action and big victorious moments for the longtime characters (and I love Freddie vs. BOB), and I think the FWWM rework with Laura and Cooper in the woods is one of my favorite and most emotional TP moments of all time. But 18 is a whole new thing - so spooky, so strange, so much to think about. It's a mini-Lynch film in and of itself.

Edited September 15, 2017 by jsbt

[K42]

I have the same question I had back then. WHAT HAPPENED TO AUDREY HORNE?